Baditude- Music, Fashion & Rebellion

What do Greasers, Grunge, Hippies, Bowie, Punk, Prince, Emo—and a pair of ripped jeans with a duct-tape flourish—have in common? More than you think.

Dr. Kathryn Reiley takes us through the fascinating collision of music and fashion, where a sound becomes a look—and a look becomes a statement.

From Motown’s polished elegance to Hippie flower power, Bowie’s Glam, Punk’s leather and safety pins, Prince’s ruffles and heels, and Emo’s eyeliner and skinny jeans, fashion becomes belonging, identity, freedom—and sometimes something entirely unexpected.

So who decides what comes next?

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Pat

Fill To Capacity -where heart, grit, and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative not to make a difference.

Hi, I'm Pat Benincasa and welcome to Fill To Capacity. I'm glad you're here. Episode #144, "Baditude- Music, Fashion & Rebellion."

Whatever music you grew up with, chances are There are songs that can drop you right back into a moment. Where you were, who you were with, and maybe even what you were wearing. So grab your coffee and settle in and take a listen because this one goes way beyond a playlist.

My guest today is Dr. Kathryn Reiley- A scholar, an educator, whose work explores fashion not simply as something we wear. but as a way we communicate who we are. Kathryn is a faculty member in the College of Design at the University of Minnesota. where her work has explored vintage clothing, dress history, consumer behavior, sustainability, and That fascinating intersection where music and fashion meet. She has studied everything from Teddy Boys, Mods, and hippies to Punk, Goth, Grunge, and Hip-Hop. Looking at how music creates communities How the clothes we wear can signal belonging, rebellion, gender, identity, and social change And that's where our conversation begins today, because we may simply catch a song, but sometimes an entire way of seeing ourselves comes with it Dr. Kathryn Reiley, I am so delighted that you're here. Welcome to Fill To Capacity!

Kathryn

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here today. So,

Pat

Kathryn, we tend to think of music as something we hear and fashion as something we wear. But your work puts them in conversation. What happens between music and clothes? That makes that relationship so powerful.

Kathryn

Usually when young people are listening to a certain style of music, you begin maybe dressing like the band members are dressing. For me growing up in the 1980s and 90s, MTV was a really big influence And so we saw these videos, and so we saw what the different band members were wearing, and we started to dress like our favorite bands were dressing. So, when like Nirvana became popular and Weezer and we saw the colored hair and flannel shirts and concert t-shirts and ripped up dirty jeans. We started dressing like they were dressing And so it's almost like you you wanna be a part of that whole culture where you wanna dress like your favorite band members and musicians are dressing. And so it's really part of the whole culture and you wanna communicate what group you're a part of.

Pat

Yeah. Now I have to tell you, I was looking at your curriculums and your writings. I lived through much of the history you studied. In high school, nobody had to explain who the greasers were. You could see them coming down the hall. And when we look at what they were wearing and you knew instantly who they were. What were we reading in those clothes before anyone said a word? What did we know?

Kathryn

A big part of it is wanting to be individual and wanting to be different than the generations before us. And to really stand out. And so you're just finding this way of wearing different clothing pieces, putting different clothing pieces together in a new way to create that more individual, different look than the past generations.

Pat

But also, as they're part of a larger school community. Are there signals there about who they are and what they represent?

Kathryn

Just like you said, like when you look at those different groups of people and you see how they're dressed it visually communicates right away what type of music they're listening to, what type of group of friends they're hanging out with, it communicates that visually right away.

Pat

Now for my next question, I want to give my listeners sort of a cheat sheet, if I may. Teddy boys, British working-class youth, embracing rock and roll and Edwardian-inspired clothes. Greasers and Rockers, leather jackets. motorcycles, rebellion and Rock'n'Roll. Mods, sharp tailoring, scooters, modernism, and a completely different musical identity. Hippies, music becomes intertwined with counterculture, politics, sexuality, and rejection of conventional dress. 

You've written about Teddy Boys, Greasers, Rockers, Hippies and Mods, young people creating identities that didn't necessarily come from the fashion establishment. When did the street begin telling fashion what mattered instead of the other way around?

Kathryn

Boy, that's a good question because throughout history there are often examples where street styles or kind of clothing worn by lower class groups in society are going to influence the main fashion. And really kind of the 30s is when we start to see more of the the street styles. coming into play.

Pat

Now there's a great moment in the movie, "The Devil Wears Prada." In that movie when Miranda essentially tells Andy, you think you chose that sweater? You didn't. Someone upstream made that choice possible But with subcultures, doesn't that sometimes run backwards? The street invents something and eventually the fashion industry repackages it and sells it back to us.

Kathryn

Yes, that that happens a lot. And sometimes it's successful and sometimes it's not So in the 90s, a lot of designers were trying to make fashionable versions of grunge, you know, make grunge fashionable. And it really didn't take off because wealthy high-class women didn't want to look like a dirty, disheveled teenagers, so it it didn't work very well. But you're right. What the subcultures love is creating their own look. And they don't want things that are mass-produced. They don't want to find things in the store. They want to make their own pieces or go to thrift stores or look in their parents' closets for old things or their grandparents' closets and make a look that's totally their own

Pat

Kathryn, I grew up in Detroit watching Robin Seymour and "Swingin' Time" on CKLW TV. Now Philadelphia had "American Bandstand." Detroit had "Swingin' Time." And if you were a teenager, I swear, you were standing in front of that TV watching. That's where we saw Motown; Little Stevie Wonder, The Supremes, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Marvin Gaye, the Marvelettes, Martha and the Vandelas, the Four Tops. I'll stop there because I can go on and on.

But on a serious note, I remember something else about those early Motown records. The people making the music were not on the covers And years later, I learned that Berry Gordy, the man who created Motown, deliberately kept the performers off the early record and album covers giving the music a better chance of being played on mainstream radio stations and maybe reaching a wider audience.

What's interesting here is that we know discrimination exists, existed. It's how Motown navigated through image and presentation. And my point is that at the same time Motown sometimes kept black performers off those early record covers, it paid enormous attention to how those performers dressed, moved, presented themselves when America did see them. So, Kathryn, What was Motown communicating through that carefully crafted presentation? And did it change the way America saw black performers?

Kathryn

It definitely did change the way that America saw black performers and they wanted to appear very elegant and fashionable and to communicate prestige. and a lot of stage presence while they're performing.

The groups that had multiple members, you know, they often dress the same, had beautifully fashionable wigs on or their hair done just right in the most fashionable manner. And it really was to communicate that we are in the no, we're fashionable, we're just ca to communicate that prestige on stage.

Pat

Now what's interesting, as the 60s unfolded, there were changes. Like, for example, Marvin Gaye in a beautifully tailored suit isn't the same visual statement as the bearded Marvin Gaye singing "What's Going On?" Can we actually watch the social and political upheaval of that period? Happening through what musicians wore.

Kathryn

Yeah, we definitely can. The 1960s is one of my favorite fashion decades because of the extreme change that's happening from the beginning towards the end of the decade. Marvin Gaye is a great example. And then also if you look at the Beatles, how the Beatles were dressed. At the beginning versus towards the end of the 1960s where they definitely have kind of more of a hippie style, definitely different than their mod style at the beginning.

Pat

Okay, listeners, pack a lunch. We are going down memory lane. I get to college And I have to tell you, uh, I'm a first-generation Italian. My parents didn't have the opportunity or privilege to go to college. And I took it very seriously, but my mother got me clothes for college. Okay, I get there, I unpack this corduroy skirt and jacket with the beautiful blouse and the vest and uh that type of thing.

Well, bell bottoms, long hair And the hippie culture, Janice Joplin, Gracie Slick, Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles, the Stones, the Doors, Pink Floyd Jethro Tull, I can go on and on. We were, if I may use a dated expression, totally "groovin" in the fashion subculture. But looking back as a scholar, And you started to talk about it, what do you see that those of us living inside that moment couldn't see?

Kathryn

I think you were seeing it. I mean you were seeing that political change that was affecting fashion and the freedom and all the rights that people were fighting for. You know, women were fighting for equal rights It it really impacted fashion and how you know women were going from wearing skirts and dresses to wanting to be able to wear pants whenever you know they felt like it. Yeah. So I think you were seeing that change even though you were in it.

I mean, especially your example of when you went to college, and what the other students were wearing compared to what your mother had packed you.

Pat

Yes And by Christmas break, when I walked in the door with my my hippie jeans, flower power beads, let's just say they were flummoxed, and I'll leave it at that.

Kathryn

But I'm surprised you didn't dress in the clothing that she packed you when you went back home.

Pat

I thought about it, but you're right. The attitude is wear it, wear it proudly. burn the bra, challenge everything, the Vietnam War, you name it, and so if you were gonna be marching, in my mind, you couldn't be like a little scaredy cat and then go back home and dress and I wouldn't even know how the hell to dress like that anymore, frankly.

So, there was about that ethos of this is the moment, this is who I am, these are the things I stand for. And your question, I know I was kind of playful about it, but it it was a decision. It was a decision saying, I question this. Something's not right here. Or I want things to be done differently. And boy, when you put those clothes on, you showed what group you were with. So, yeah, I I take your point that we did see it. And with a gusto, I might add.

As we're looking at these different fashion styles, also in that moment, there were different ways of looking in terms of flower power. You know, the difference between Joni Mitchell and Janice Joplin. I adore both. And Joni Mitchell, the classic flower child look, long straight hair, makeup. Flowing dresses, sort of that romantic, natural bohemian, but rejecting of the polished, put-together look of the 50s And then you get Janice. You know, oh Lord, can you buy me a Mercedes Benz? Okay. 

Janice was something else entirely. wild hair, tinted glasses, I don't give a flying F attitude and anything that came out of her mouth beads, scarves, feathers, vests, loose shirts, bell bottoms and boots, scruffy, flamboyant and unapologetic. And so that moment was so elastic in what it embraced You have Joni and Janice and Janice starting this unisex street fashion jeans, boots, vests, et cetera.

So, There's all these things swirling around. I'm just curious, what do you think the fashion industries were making of all of this?

Kathryn

You know, I I think they were taking in all of it because if you look at fashion designers at the time, a lot of the high-end fashion designers were making maxi dresses with floral patterns, trying to kind of mimic that more flower child look. And then there were also high-end designers starting to make pantsuits and starting to have more gender-neutral styles that women could wear that had more of a masculine influence. You really saw designers paying attention to all of it. 

Pat

So now comes David Bowie. Space Oddity. "Ground control to Major Tom." By the early seventies, Bowie was doing something that could be startling at the time. He blurred the lines between masculine and feminine, wearing makeup, high heels, flamboyant clothes. And then the guy takes it a step further. He creates Ziggy Stardust

An androgynous, otherworldly rock star persona with flaming red hair, makeup, platform boots, and outrageous costumes. Bowie didn't just dress differently. He stepped into an entirely different identity. And then when he was finished with Ziggy, he left him behind.

Kathryn, did Bowie change the rules about what fashion could communicate?

Kathryn

I think he really did for men. He did a whole new thing for menswear that really hadn't been done.

So before that, we saw musicians like Janice Joplin, you know, wearing more masculine styles. But this was one of the first times with David Bowie that we saw you know, men wearing makeup and lots of colors and sparkle and tight-fitting clothing and he he really changed the game.

Pat

Oh, he did. And I can't help but marvel that we started this conversation with Greasers who embraced the tough guy look. And now a radical new look. But Bowie made it so glam, as they call it.

Then again, there comes another evolution, Punk. When I was a young artist making trips to New York City, a friend of mine took me to CBGB's. And that was the music club down on the Bowery that was the center of the Punk scene. And listeners, I am from Minnesota. I'm just gonna tell you that. So, I walk in and whoa! People with safety pins through their cheeks, ripped jeans, leather. Uh I'm gonna use a urban vernacular for heavy boots: Shit kickers. See, when you wear shit kickers it means you're ready for a fight. So, it's not just wearing black boots people.

They were wearing shit kickers. It was this badass scruffy, almost fell out of bed and don't give a damn look. But that was punk. The music was raw, loud, confrontational, and the clothes carried the same attitude. You didn't need money or somebody's permission You could tear it, pin it, alter it, put it together yourself, just do it yourself. And then something fascinating happens. Eventually those same visual signals of rebellion start showing up in expensive designer collections. Kathryn, what happens when the establishment starts selling the rebellion that was originally aimed at the establishment?

Kathryn

So usually that's when you see a brand new change coming. When the subculture sees that everybody else is wearing what they're wearing and um designers are starting to sell it in the stores then it's time to change again because you don't want to be wearing what everybody else is wearing. So, Punk and Goth are an interesting subculture where designers have done a pretty good job of putting in elements of Punk and Goth in their designer lines. And it does look really fashionable and tends to be pretty well received in the stores.

Pat

Also, we haven't talked about makeup specifically, but I remember how goth makeup just hit everywhere with the black lipstick and uh kids dyeing their hair deep black and the heavy eyeliner. I mean it was Goth!

Kathryn

Well yeah, so it's interesting how you know Bowie starts wearing makeup when he's doing glam rock But then men continue wearing makeup in Punk and Goth. When we were doing Grunge in the nineties. It was really minimal makeup. It was very different. But with some of these cultures, you do see men continue to wear makeup. Now, because we're in Minnesota, you know where I'm going next...

Pat

In case there's anyone listening, who doesn't know who Prince was. He was the Minneapolis-born singer, songwriter, musician, and performer who exploded onto the world stage in the late 70s and 80s with songs like "1999," "When Doves Cry," and "Purple Rain." But you didn't just hear Prince, you saw him. High heels, ruffles, lace makeup, purple, clothes that played with masculine and feminine sexuality and identity and he did it all while creating a sound so distinctive it became known as the Minneapolis Sound.

Kathryn, could Prince's music have had the same cultural force without Prince's clothes?

Kathryn

That's a really great question. I I don't know if it could have because again, he had such a stage presence with those different ensembles that he was wearing and all the different costumes that he had tailor-made just to fit him exactly.

And it was so interesting growing up as a kid in the 80s listening to him I thought it was totally normal that he was wearing ruffles and lots of purple and high heels, like which is interesting because other, you know, other generations would have seen that as very different and maybe kind of strange, but to us it was just totally normal.

Pat

You know, I couldn't help but think about the Motown presentation. That when they came out on stage and they were beautifully dressed and the suits and the moves, I mean, it was just a choreographed elegance to a incredible beat.

And so fast forward to Prince, his care in selecting what he wore, and you're touching on it. Can you be more s like give us more like what was he communicating through the way he presented himself?

Kathryn

Yes, I think he was definitely influenced by Motown and that presentation that they had on stage with the very fashionable trendy clothing that they were wearing. And so I think he also wanted that same stage presence to really communicate how, oh how do I say this? He was here now, he was front and center just that an importance that he wanted to communicate when he was on stage dressed in the different costumes.

I think he really paid a lot of attention to what he was wearing and worked with the designers to create the different looks.

Pat

If I could add to that, this beautiful scaffold of description that you're giving about him, I also think there was a sexuality charge That when he got on stage, whether it was ruffles, makeup, uh, platforms, he was signaling, I'll be any damn person I want to be. In doing that with that quality of music, in a sense, his music was so freeing. You can be whoever you are.

Kathryn

And his style of dress was also very freeing for people. Like you can wear whatever you want. You can wear ruffles. You can wear more feminine styles and still be very masculine. There's this, I don't want to say gender neutral, but this freeness with the clothing. Like you don't have to worry about if it's men's clothing or women's clothing. It just wear what you want to wear and what you're comfortable in.

Pat

And it really is, as you as you're pointing out, it was a questioning, a rebellion about who gets to decide gender for clothing for God's sake. And I think that was such an important part of what he represented to us who were listening. That this is a whole new game here, folks. Clothes are not gendered and so very freeing.

You've studied, oh Gosh, decades of people using clothes to tell the world this is who I am, you know, what group I belong to. And there was a time when it was easier because with radio, the listening community was more cohesive You could, you know, follow your favorite groups, AM, FM, go to rock concerts, you know, you knew what rock movements were in the air, you know, whether it was Goth, Grunge, Punk, you knew. People today, it's all privatized streaming. It's private. We're all in our little listening bubbles with our own playlist. And it's not like a dominant culture form of music in our moment. It's like private bubbles of listening. So, when you look at what people are wearing today, what do our clothes say about us?

Kathryn

There's still the importance of individuality, but I think what's interesting now is in the past Like again with my Grunge example, we like only dressed Grunge.

We didn't ever dress a different subculture than what we identified as. But now I think young people, you can change your mind. Like one day if you want to dress more Hip-Hop, another day if you want to dress more Emo.

Pat

Emo grew out of the Punk scene but became more personal and emotional. By the 2000s, it was a youth subculture with a recognizable sound and look Dark clothes, skinny jeans, eyeliner, and side swiped hair. Music, fashion and identity rolled into one you can kind of change it up.

Kathryn

Like you don't have to specifically stay within a certain subcultural style of dress all the time. So, I think there's more flexibility. It's kind of more fluid depending on what music you're listening to at the time. So, there is kind of a freedom now in a variety of choices.

Pat

I've seen it, uh I taught for thirty years and arts high school and kids would come in one week, Emo or Goth and then next week the bell bottoms. And I marveled at their panoramic range of choice. In my generation growing up, we didn't have that panoramic choice. It was like when the Beatles, the Mods, I mean all that period came out in the beginning, there was a look that kids were just going crazy about. And so now you're talking about more freedom, possibly more gender bending, more definition coming from them, but the assumption is that it's fluid. As opposed, I belong to this group, something's changing here.

Kathryn

Yeah, and it's really interesting because more and more young people are buying clothing from secondhand stores. They're buying secondhand clothing and vintage clothing online. And so they're really changing their looks just based on what they find aesthetically pleasing. And one day they might want to wear uh something super baggy that identifies with one subculture and another day they wear something different. But yeah, there's this fluidity that we just didn't really have before. With my Grunge group If I would have suddenly dressed in a more Hip-Hop style one day, my friends would have been so confused and been like, Kath, what are you doing? Why? Why are you dressed in Hip-Hop styles today? You had to stay with your group's sense of fashion and style in the past.

Pat

On a broader socio-political overview, young people coming up now, you know, cost of living hasn't improved in God knows how many years. The cost of college, dormitories. Many of them choose not to have cars. It's just out of the question. The socio-economic climate is not conducive to young people trying to go to college or save or travel or even get an apartment and many of 'em are doing two jobs while going to school.

And so you look at the socio-economic system that they're living in right now. And then the flip side of that is when you look at secondhand stores, have become very, very hip, very fashionable. Whereas maybe years ago in the forties and fifties, if you dress if you went to a secondhand store, if it existed or a pawn shop to get clothes, it was considered like you must be on hard times. Now fast forward, that whole secondhand store From a socio-economic point of view. And then let's look at another point of view, sustainability. And these young people are very aware that some of the biggest dumping going on is from the fashion industry.

We have the economics, sustainability, and then coming full circle to what they're wearing and why they're wearing it.

Kathryn

Right. And it's so interesting how there just isn't that stigma anymore of wearing used clothing or secondhand clothing, um, like there was in the past, like you mentioned. Young people now just they see it as another source of clothing. And a way to get items that are more individual. They don't want the mass-produced clothing that everyone else is buying in the new clothing stores. So, they see it as a way to be more unique.

Pat

Do the fashion industries, are they aware of this trend? Because this is not a a passing trend. It's getting bigger and bigger.

What do you think's happening on that side, the fashion people?

Kathryn

Yeah, they definitely pay attention to consumer behavior and where consumers are shopping. And so, if they can try and see that there's certain styles that the young people are buying from secondhand clothing stores and vintage clothing stores, They will try to replicate that in the new clothing. They'll try to take elements of those designs, maybe certain colors or certain patterns, certain styles. So, they'll try to replicate it. But it's really hard to do. Like my students at the U, they come to class with such unique ensembles. that they have totally created on their own. You know, they might have sewn part of it on their own.

They might have bought something, destroyed it, and put it back together in a new way. So it's so great to see all the individual unique looks that everyone's wearing.

Pat

It seems like it's a reverse. Well, we talked earlier about music and street creating fashion and then when fashion would try to emulate that the kids would say, no way, time to move on. Here fashion is like trying to find a place at the table, but what these kids are rejecting, not that they want to buy knockoffs of vintage. They're doing something else. They're saying we want to recycle these clothes. We want to sustain these materials That's a whole different issue, Kathryn.

Kathryn

Yeah, and it it's so interesting because they think about fashion and their appearance in a totally different way that like my generation wasn't thinking about. See all these different elements like you mentioned, being more sustainable, being individual, creating their own appearance, that's all going into play now.

Pat

Let's come back to music. Again, music for a long time had different it's almost like art history. You could say impressionism, post impressionism, expressionism, etc. Now art historians are reevaluating saying that you know what, those lines aren't so clear cut. There were evolutionary points of different styles in between those mega styles.

Kathryn

So, when we come to music today, what is your take? on what young people are listening to. What's their music world look like? There are just so many genres now that we didn't have in the past. like so many different music styles happening at the same time. And then what's really interesting too is musicians that we identified in one genre are now jumping to a new genre like Beyonce now um doing more country music And kind of bringing more of a glam look to country, which I know other country star stars were also doing.

Pat

But it's interesting how there's this mix going on and again things are more fluid and it's okay to do that it's okay to try it a different music style When these music styles are starting to happen, like Beyonce going into Country Western 

There’s another player in this as big, social media.  I'm on the Instagram reels and look I'm listening to music that just takes my breath away. Young people just picking up a guitar and doing a riff that it just makes you gasp. And the talent. And they're getting exposure now, not looking for an agent, not going to places to get booked. They cut out the gatekeeper. They're going straight. to social media. What is your take on that?

Kathryn

Well, it it's such a great way to get your music out there right away.

Like you said, directly to the young people without that middleman. And it's a way to change fashion too. So right away everyone's seeing these fashion styles on social media. It's gonna keep fashion changing even faster now that we're seeing new looks right away that these new musicians are wearing.

Pat

So we can almost say that this the social media is a creativity driver in a sense. Instead of waiting for the fashion industry to come down and tell us This is what's happening, and then they repackage it for middle-class buyers, etc. There's like a a fashion food chain that was Now with social media, it's so direct. For example, if a kid decides to use duct tape on jeans in a really creative, fashionable way duct tape purse and accessories, suddenly everybody's raiding their closets and making their own version 10,000 views later? It's a fashion trend. So we have this whole new driver from music, for fashion. And that brings me to music often engendered rebellion. It was a way to distinguish yourself from the previous generation. How do we do that now?

Kathryn

Like you said, like suddenly using duct tape as a design element on your clothing. That's a fairly new idea. for some groups of people. There's always these creative ways that the young people think of adding some new look to their appearance or putting things together in a in a new unique way compared to how they did before.

When I started seeing a whole variety of students wearing corsets, historically in the past I thought of, well, women wear corsets as an undergarment. Well, no, now I'm seeing a wide variety of students wearing corsets as an outer garment, you know, so there's lots of ways that we're always thinking about how we can rebel and be different and wear clothing in a way that people weren't wearing it before. 

Pat

You obviously have a passion for fashion and music How on earth did you end up studying all this? Coming into academia and saying, I want to study fashion, music, and all the things that you do. What brought you to that point?

Kathryn

Well, it really happened as an undergraduate student. I had the history of fashion class, and I was like Oh, this is this is what I want to study. This is what I want to keep working in. Because I I loved vintage clothing and I loved wearing vintage clothing. But when I had the history of fashion class, that's when I understood that, oh, you can work in museums, you can keep going to graduate school and teach classes about fashion history. And then I really got interested in how music and fashion go together and how as the music was changing, the fashion would change. And it's so interesting to look at that throughout history.

Pat

Well, I have to say when we started, I thought we were going to talk about fashion and music, which is fascinating, but Kathryn, somehow, we ended up on a social cultural historical walkabout.

Kathryn

Well, because it's all related. It all goes together. It is.

Pat

And I love the wonder in that I mean that's what you bring to this. There's a w a joy. You're like a little kid picking up a rock with a lot of colors that maybe we've walked by a million times and the kid sees wonder like, whoa, look at those look at those marks and the shape of the you know.

You bring a wonder to this cultural viewpoint. It's exciting. I would love to be in one of your classes.

Kathryn

Well, thank you. I hope the students feel the same way.

Pat

Dr. Kathryn Reiley, I want to thank you for coming on Filter Capacity today. To say that this has been fun is an understatement. Well, thank you so much for inviting me. And listeners, thank you for joining us today. And yeah, go to your closets or go in the attic and dig out those bell bottoms or those ripped jeans Thank you for joining us and take care.