In the Space Between Cultures

What happens when you spend a lifetime moving between worlds—never entirely leaving one behind, never quite belonging to just one?

Nancy Xiong is a first-generation Hmong American, daughter of war refugees from Laos, whose life has taken her from northern Wisconsin to Japan, the East Coast, India, and back to Minnesota. Along the way, the seemingly unrelated pieces of her life began doing something unexpected: they started connecting.

Culture. Identity. Survival. Service. Sound. The stories we carry—and the places we carry them from.

This is a conversation about what can happen when you stop trying to make your life fit neatly into one world.

Sometimes the space between cultures isn’t empty space at all. It’s where you discover who you are.

Hono Bono Healing

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Pat

Fill To Capacity, where heart, grit, and irreverent humor collide. A podcast for people too stubborn to quit and too creative Not to make a difference Hi, I'm Pat Benincasa and welcome back to Fill to Capacity, Episode 145, "In The Space Between Cultures." What happens when life takes you places you never expected? And somehow those seemingly unrelated experiences begin to connect. My guest today Nancy Xiong is a first-generation Hmong American born to war refugee parents from Laos and raised in northern Wisconsin. Her journey has crossed cultures, continents, and some very different kinds of work. and eventually led her to create Hono Bono Healing here in St. Paul. Now, how did she get from there to here? And what did she discover along the way? That's where I want to begin.

Nancy Xiong, welcome to Fill to Capacity. It's wonderful to have you here.

Nancy

Thank you so much for the warm introduction, Pat. I am in awe being here and so excited to be speaking with you today.

Pat

Nancy, you're the daughter of Hmong War Refugees from Laos. And you grew up in northern Wisconsin. What was it like growing up in a mall family within a very different world around you? I mean, how did you navigate those two worlds? Yes.

Nancy

So I grew up in northern Wisconsin. I'm a first generation, though, so that says a lot already. And also the first child of my parents. And hence All my brothers and sisters, there's a total of seven of us. I have an American name, Nancy. And then all my siblings are named after different types of flowers. There's Paku, Panya, Pachia, Pada, and then my brothers Juyi and Zhoa. And so, they have all Hmong names. I've always wanted a Hmong name, but that's Nancy.

I was born during the time of Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan, and that's when my parents came to United States and having their first child and it wasn't until a couple years ago my name meant to my mom and dad as a symbol of democracy.

Being able to name their child first child in the English American name was so special to them. Oh, my dad's, I asked like, how come I don't have a Hmong name? The reason it was because of that as the first child. And then, and my grandma couldn't pronounce Nancy. So, they decided to name all my siblings Hmong names. But growing up in northern Wisconsin, I never really knew what it is until I went to college. You know, what is diversity?

And how are we different from the others? It was very confusing. It was very convoluted It wasn't until I went to Japan. That's when I found out that I'm different. I'm not American. I was the only American quote unquote student that went through this program. And the other students that went with me were white American males. And so I was hanging out with these white males. It was a fun time, but That was different. So going with my colleagues or the other male students and then being in an Asian country, that's when I really discovered what I felt like.

But going to your question It became a place of challenges of and still this the till today that place that I grew up in, it is a place that it's not my first place that I'll go to, to be honest. Even though my parents still lives there. Yeah, my parents and my uncles and aunts still lives there.

It's just there's that place. It's still a few wounds. I mean, there's wounds there I'm still making sense of it myself, but that's a great question.

Pat

Well, thank you. And I I appreciate your candor. You navigated two worlds. 

Fifty years after Hmong refugees began arriving in Minnesota, actually St. Paul. St. Paul now has a mayor, Kaohly Her, who came to this country as a Hmong refugee from Laos. I'm curious, Nancy. How do you see that moment? Does it hold significance for you?

Nancy

Oh my goodness. Totally, totally. Thank you, Pat It holds, oh, I'm just getting chills when you answer that. It is a magnificent moment just to know It warms my heart that I got to see this in my lifetime.

As a young woman living in northern Wisconsin, I've lived out on the East Coast and I've come back and know my home is in St. Paul, Minnesota. As a Hmong-Woman growing up, first generation, seeing this, Mayor Kaohly Her has really painted the picture. This is the dream that as a as part of the Hmong Women Community, we want to see, we have yearned for this. And then my mother's generation and my grandmother's generation, that is It's like I can't even have the I don't have the word to describe it, but it's so no shang. Very heartwarming. I don't know what else to say.

Ancestors with their hands on your shoulder, as with Kaohly . I do believe in that. I always feel that the hand of my ancestors are always guiding me, always. So that moment in history. And I'm just incredible just seeing her, watching her, seeing them on my news feed and the world like we did it. Like she did it. She put that dot. See even this, I don't even dot is not a not a good word to say. She put our culture, our community on that map. And as a young Hmong girl, I'm just, thank you. Yeah, I'm just so thankful. Yeah, I got to see that in my lifetime.

I have three nieces and one nephew, and like I take them to the Hmong New Year celebration. I take them to community events and so that they are exposed and they're multi, they're biracial. And so they get to see their Hmong community and they feel so honored. They are aware that, oh, this is Hmong. This is what they wear. This is what they do. It's the food. I never want them to feel ashamed of as to who they are as individuals.

Pat

Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm a first generation, my parents were born in Italy and most of my family spoke broken English and so navigating two worlds is very real. And for both of us, very different experiences. I'm not assuming that they were similar, but anytime you're a first generation, you're living in two worlds automatically.

Nancy

Yes. And depending on where you are,  your these identities, they show up more than the other.

When I'm in my Hmong community There's certain ways to be Nancy or Nancy has to be certain ways. And that's a way of respecting the community, my community, my  family, and myself. And then when I'm outside of the Moong community, I'm a different Nancy because we have to navigate back and forth. And it's been it's exhausting. Very exhausting. And that's just that's my world...Yeah.

Pat

And there's a term for it called code switching.

Nancy

That's it.

Pat

Code switching is the practice of changing your language, speech, appearance. or behavior to fit into different social, cultural, or professional settings Yes. And that's that's very real- I brought a friend to a family get together and as we were leaving she turned to me and she said, You're a different person when you're around your family. It's almost like she got to discover Patti with her Italian relatives. Yes. Very different than Pat in the world

Nancy

Yeah. Thank you. Yes.

Pat

By day you work with immigrants and refugee entrepreneurs building businesses here in Minnesota. What have you come to understand about that experience from the people you work with?

Nancy

My gosh. To me it's a magical world that I get to be part of their journey as they start their business. From the early age of- I have this idea to, I've got a place. I need help. I need support financially. I need technical assistance At the end of the day; it is honoring themselves. And I love that I get to be part of them.

They are honoring themselves. They're honoring their dream. And to do, to serve or to provide products that is to, I call it is their baby. And to me, that is just so heartwarming, so so rich that I get to be part of that world because in this day and age you can work at an organization, you can work at a company, but when you set your mind and I'm gonna work for myself, I'm gonna make it, but I need resources, that's where my team come in and so that warms my heart so much that I get to be part of it.

What I've learned, I learned a lot of things. I learned So as someone who has been outside of the Hmong community, I lived out on the East Coast for the majority, for 10 years of my adult life As a young adult, as a career, coming back to my community, I get to utilize what I learned while out on the East Coast. I go in and out of the community, if that makes sense. Yes it does. I've been out in the community, the Hmong community for so long that when I come into the community, I see from different perspectives. And using that lived experience and being in my own community, I've I get so excited. I'm like, yeah, this is what uh when clients come and see me, it has helped shape me how I can support my clients, how when they come with an issue that they need help with, I see from different lens.

And I love being able to use that to be yeah, to use different lens and to support them to understand it from a mainstream level and then to understand from a Hmong immigrant perspective It's a lot of it being learning as you go. There's no, there's books, right? You can read books about it, but it's not as an entrepreneur. You have to go and learn it for yourself because what Nancy has learned is very different, maybe different from person X, Y, and Z. And so I always encourage my clients, you gotta test it up. And if you've I don't like to use the word fail, but if you if it was not successful, you learn and then you go back out again. And to me, when I speak to other entrepreneurs who is living in their world, there's some there's a different language and a different vibe and I love that entrepreneurial world community. So it's just so enticing for me.

Pat

You know, I would almost call you a world traveler, but instead I would call you a cultural traveler. Because you know you are Hmong. You grew up Hmong. And you very much acclimated by living on East Coast, coming to the Midwest, going to Japan, coming back that you are a cultural traveler and the stamp on your passport is understanding and heart that you have this passport that lets you traverse these different worlds and you do it with ease because you you've lived it. You have lived it. I

Nancy

Thank you. t's these lived experiences, putting myself in places that I've never been before. that makes me very uncomfortable, but I've learned to be okay with it. And that's probably one of the best lessons that I've allowed myself to do. What probably one of the most enticing but most challenging travel experience. I also lived in India too and that was total has challenged my own thoughts about life, my own experience.

Putting yourself in a uncomfortable space, you learn so much. You learn how strong you are, you learn that you are not as incapable that you think you're incapable of.

Pat

All of a sudden, you see strengths you didn't even know you had. Yes.

Nancy

That's it, yes.

Pat

So I'd like to shift gears. There's another part of your work. that takes you into a very different territory. Now, you've spent years advocating for underserved students and supporting survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault.

That asks Something very different of you than helping someone, let's say, build a business. What drew you into that work and what did that teach you?

Nancy

Oh my goodness. Yeah, working in the domestic violence sexual assault movement that drew from being a Hmong girl, being seen as less than. being second, third class, growing up, it was I've seen the world that the women in my life live through. And it was not always pleasant. It was a place, a place of power imbalance, a place of hurt. a place of not being valued. And I think this experience when as a young girl, what I've seen, what I've experienced has led me to all the different places that I've been to, all the all the imbalances that I've experienced, but also the pain.

And I think In my spiritual journey now. Not that it was okay that I saw this, I experienced all these injustices for the women in my community. I don't want to say I appreciate the experience that this experience has led me to what I do now as a healing practitioner. I have a lot of love, a lot of heart. And so when I come across folks who are survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault. In the past, I used to cry. I used to get mad. I used to be so upset.

Now I think of it as that is not. To me, that's not progressive. What I can do to overcome these happenings; I have I'm equipped with myself. I'm equipped with my healing modalities. I'm equipped physically and mentally and my heart has equipped where if someone comes and tell me these stories, I'm able to hold space for them. I'm able to tell them, to encourage them that there is life beyond this experience. Whatever happened, was wrong. But we can slow go beyond it.

And that's one of the reasons why Reiki, I'm a Reiki and sound healing practitioner now, has really helped me understand when trauma happens to the body. When trauma happens or when a when a person experienced trauma physically, socially, verbally, something happens to the body And as a Reiki practitioner, I'm able to help support that, help to alleviate that.

I may not be able to destroy everything, but I'm able to help that person to get to where they need through energy work. And to hold space for them and to know that someone listened, someone cared for them. And sometimes these stories, these experiences are very It would be like first time to tell someone outside of themselves or someone outside of their family or their close friends. And so I've become a lot of the the person that they share out their experience.

Pat

As you were talking, I had this image of a very, very, very elastic heart. That you have this elastic heart that can absorb these stories. And that's not an easy thing. You take in all of this, but not only are you elastic, you become this conduit. I hear your story, I hear you, and I see you. Yes. Yeah. And The work that you do, wow, that is that is so powerful. It's so powerful that you validate someone's experience that they may have never even uttered a word of it.

But they tell you and in the moment and sharing of that telling, it's almost like their body and soul are reaching out to you. It's a healing moment, just without you laying hands on them. 

Nancy

Yes, yes. Oh my god, you said it perfectly. It's a release for them, just to even let it all out. And it's almost It's almost like a practice, like I gotta tell my mom this happened to me. And so for them to, oh my game chills, just thinking about that.

Yeah. Where I gotta tell my mom, I gotta tell my sister that this happened to me. And I'm there is almost like a practice. Yeah. For them. And then they actually go tell to the person that they needed to tell or to reveal or to Whether it's a forgiveness or just to reveal that this has happened to me, Nancy. And so I'm sometimes it's powerful, very powerful in itself, yes. Yes, yes it is.

Pat

Now you use a Hmong expression, K-H-O  S-I-A-B, and I think it's called Ka Shia? Yes, Kashia, yes. Thank you for that. Okay. What does it mean and what does that expression hold that an English translation might miss?

Nancy

Oh my gosh, this word ka shia. It's two words. Let me preface it. Ka means like to fix, to repair. Shia is referred, literally it means liver. But when it's it's we usually refer to the heart. So fix heart. And then it also means I'm sad. I go kokoshia, I am sad. I am Kukokasha, I'm lonely, I'm sad. So people use it interchangeably in my line of work I use it interchangeably as well. So Koshia, when people kosh yeah and they come and see me, right?

I'm able to I don't like to use the word fix. My goal is to really alleviate that. Alleviate their  pain. Alleviate whether it's physical pain or emotional pain. I help with that. Reiki has um allowed them to release what they need to release and I'm just the messenger. And I send healing energy to their body through light touch from the different chakras of the body. And they able to release it on their own when the time is right for them. And releasing it could be through tears, it could be laughing, it could be doing things that they forgot that they love doing and it takes time.

It doesn't happen overnight. That's the long explanation of what Kho Siab means .

Pat

Well thank you. No, that was really enlightening. Now yet there's another expression, the Japanese expression of Hono Bono. Now this one comes from the time you spent studying in Nagasaki, Japan. What does Hono Bono mean and how did those words eventually become the name of your business and practice?

Nancy

Oh my gosh. Thank you for asking such a wonderful question. So I got the opportunity to go visit Japan. I've studied Japanese all by four years. At that time in my my high school they had Spanish. They have German, French, like the usual language, but there's Japanese and I was so fascinated. Now they have Hmong language now. I wish at that time they had Mongol language, but I'm so happy that there's Hmong language opportunities, learnt classes available for the students today. But at that time, Japanese was like the closest thing. It was an Asian language.

And my teacher Hugman sensei. She was so vibrant. She was so passionate what she does. So, four years of that. And then I got the chance to go to Japan for two weeks. And that changed my life. And the only word, not the only word, but the word that I could really express myself was Hono Bono. That was So heartwarming.

It means heartwarming in Japanese. And I wanted a powerful word describe my experience because going there we live we got to stay with host families we got to do things so intimately in terms of like going to our friends' house, go having like dinners, uh in a very collective way and it was so heartwarming and I told myself that uh one day in college I'm gonna go back and study there. And it was probably one of the best decisions that I made in my young life, in my early 20s. Has made me who I am today. And when I started my healing practice, I wanted a name. I could have used a Hmong word, but somehow it didn't feel right.

Because Shoshia means heartwarming as well too, but like Shoshia It didn't it just didn't feel right at the time. So I'm like, let's do Hono Bono Healing. And I have utilized that and it's easy to say like Hono Bono Healing. It's like because Japanese is very tonal. And also my goal for my practice is always for my clients to leave feeling heartwarm. uh or coming in. It's a very heartwarming experience. So yeah, that's how Hono Bono came to be.

And it it was a word that I was I felt so empowered to use with my limited Japanese expression during my beginning years of exploring the country of Japan.

Pat

And so your business is called Hono Bono  Healing.

Nancy

One thing I want to add too, Reiki is from Japan.

Pat

At some point, Reiki and Sound Healing entered your life. What drew you to them? And when did they become something you wanted to offer other people?

Nancy

I started my spiritual journey. I mean, I started from a very young age. This is what I've I've  learned about my journey. having that the spiritual guides or in the Hmong language, Mokwa, yeah, Mokwa Ming. I always had them from a very young age because I was very sensitive to energy. Like if someone was crying, I will cry with them. My sisters, they will tease me all, oh Nancy's such a crybaby. If you tell her this story, she's gonna cry. So let's not try cry.

Or if you go see like Rom-coms or comedy, like romantic comedies, Nancy, I'll be like sniffing in the theater. And to me, that was just so normal. But now as a Reiki healing energy practitioner, it makes sense because I'm very sensitive to the energy around me, whether it's from visual or from audiovisual movies to Facebook. In 2017, I was drawn to Reiki. I took level one. So, there's level one, level two, and the masterclass. And that was when I was still living on the East Coast, I took it.

Yeah, it resonated with me. The goal was to help people understand how energy impacts them. But really how to understand how energy impacts me. Take level two, but I was going through my own awakening at that time. The end of 2018 and the early of 2019. That's when I'm like I got final confirmation that I'm on a spiritual journey and I gotta ride the wave. I have to slowly understand this new journey. And I went back to Reiki and to learn it.

And I moved back to Minnesota in 2019. And then we had COVID. That's an experience in itself. That was like another podcast in itself. And that's when I learned I met my mentor who is my mentor and this very moment. I talked to her almost every day. And so COVID was happening. We're quarantining. And then 2021 was like, okay, I gotta go learn something.

I gotta go learn something to help myself. And I went back to Reiki. I learned level one, level two, and finish it off in early spring of 2022 in person and The beginning of 2022, that's when I started offering distant Reiki. And that has really helped me elevated my own spiritual journey. That's how I connect with my spiritual guides as well. And that's how I started learning about my own self, coexisting with my spiritual guides.

Yeah, 2023, that's when I added sound because My family was a very very musical family. I grew up singing.

I grew up show choir. My sister is a vocal artist in the monk community. I have another sister. She's a soccer player, but she plays the guitar in this generation. Not a lot of women, not a lot of women plays the guitar because that's a male activity. And so my sister did that. I have another sister, and I had a brother who played the piano. He's also in show choir as well too. So, we were a very musical family.

And I was so fascinated with sound. I'm like, sound? Music? It can heal people? That just that drew me. I added sound healing. And I've been doing that since, yeah, 2023. Until today.

Those who've experienced it has had wonderful experience. And those who are still unsure, I highly recommend it. It's an experience itself where if one describes it for you, It's much better if you come experience it and you will have your own definition, your own description of what it is.

Pat

Actually, I I kind of stumbled on sound healing uh with the Tibetan bowls. So, I just YouTube, you know, the go-to for everything. I started listening and I came to it not knowing anything about sound healing. All I knew was there were certain sound levels that actually made me relax. And I'm a type triple A, Nancy. So here I'm putting on these headphones and just allowing the sound to fill me. And I was amazed at the relaxation so without knowing the healing aspects, I was drawn to it. 

And for you to do Reiki and Sound, now for people who don't know- what happens when you keep talking about Reiki and healing? They don't know what you're doing. So if someone came to you and said, okay, I want a Reiki healing, Can you just give us a little bit of an idea of the process?

Nancy

Yes, I do this to every session to uh the majority of my clients who comes in. Many of them are first-time Reiki clients. And I give them a little like one-on-one what it is. And so and I'll do it now. And so there's seven chakras that I work with. So just know that every Reiki practitioner, they have different ways of giving Reiki. And but the goal is to really ground, to get rid of negative energy, toxic energy, and to help people release what no longer serves them.

And so I'll start out with the crown chakra. The crown the crown chakra is the top of your head and my hands. uh will be on the top of the head. I will if I sense any heaviness, I'll sweep it all out. I'll blow out the negativity or the heavy energy. And then I go to so yeah to the third eye, the third eye is gaining clarity. A lot of times If people are congested up here or have headaches, most time the third eye is blocked or unbalanced. So my goal is to really uh help them release what is heavy up on the crown in the third eye so they can see clearly. And then there's the throat chakra, the throat chakra. My hands will be on the shoulder.

My clients who come to see me in my studio, they'll be on my massage bed. They're laying on the massage bed. Some people they do it while people are sitting. depending the resources that they have. And so the third chakra, is the throat chakra. This is where I sweep it out, clear it out, so that way clients can live their own truth and they can speak their truth. A lot of times  I tell them like if you are- if it's dry or you're coughing, think about,  have I been honest or holding myself back? If you have, that means that you gotta clear it out loud. And so Reiki helps with that for your own truth and to speak your truth.

And then there's the heart chakra. When I first started with Reiki, the heart chakra was what I'm so drawn to. And that's like the first part of the body that I go straight. My hands will be right on top of the chest. And to send healing through my palms, through my hands, to clear out, to send love to each of my clients. So that way I really emphasize the love for oneself. Because you only know. The only way you'll know how you need to be loved is to love yourself. You set that tone for others to love you. I emphasize that each time someone's like, oh Nancy, if they're having struggles with relationships or having struggles with a parent or something. So that's the heart chakra.

Accepting love for yourself. And then the solar plexus right in your ribcage area. And that is where a lot of the trauma or anxiety are stuck. As a practitioner, my job, my goal is to really release what's there right onto the sacral chakra. The sacral is where your room area is. It is where they refer to it as the sex chakra. This is where you create babies, but also you create with your own hands, like arts and crafts. I had a young gal who has been coming to see me, and she had this to this story to my new clients where she's been coming to see me and her way of creating was creating financial reports or financial It's for her clients and she found a job doing that. Now she's working away because she was looking for a job too.

And so creating  your sacral chakra works with that and making play and pleasure and that's your is that my goal especially a lot of the women that comes to me That area, whether it's trauma or whether it was figuring life out, that area is where I go straight to, just to clear that area out so they can release. and find their own truth, finding their own pleasure, their own joy. And then last is the root chakra. The root chakra is your grounding chakra If that is off balance, so the root chakra is from your tailbone all the way to your feet. And my goal is to really ground my clients. And if that area is blocked, the majority of the chakras are in balance.

And I will sweep that area- clear of any heavy energy and flat my client's feet on the ground as if Bricks are being thrown at them. I want them to be so strong like an oak tree that they will be able to dodge those bullets or those bricks or rocks that are coming their way. And when I speak of bricks and rocks, those are uh I speak of them as uh refer them as that in terms of challenges or hardship So, yeah, thank you.

Pat

You know, so much of your work is about helping people find their own path and purpose. And you started talking about it a little bit along the way. What have you discovered about your own path?

Nancy

I'm still learning. I am still gaining more skills and I have to be, I have to allow myself that I'm also human I have my spiritual guides around me. They can also be seen as my own team. I'm also human, so I have to honor the human side of me. I make mistakes. I am exhausted. And I also have to rest.

So I have to, I'm seen as a healing practitioner, but I also have to practice what I do as well. And I do need folks to heal me. Other Reiki practitioner. And that's where my Team of practitioner comes in, that's where my mentor comes in to support me A lot of it is honesty with myself. If I need help, I have to be okay to ask help, whereas I'm so used to being the helper.

I am or the provider or the healer, I also need that for me to be who I am as well too

Pat

For someone listening who wants to learn more about Hono Bono Healing, Or connect with you, where can they find you?

Nancy

I have a Facebook, Hono Bono Healing. I also have my website, nancyxiong.com. That's where you can learn more about me And my services as well. Yeah, so that's yep, those are the avenues. Or reach out to me as well too. I do have discovery calls that people can sign up for just to talk to me or to just to get some insights about what I do.

A lot of times I offer that to really allow folks to know that they are their own agent. Even if they've met me before, they're not so sure or something to schedule a discovery call and to really hear my voice, but also to ask questions and how I respond to these questions because that's how clients will know, okay, Nancy is safe to go to because the healing work is so intimate, all the intricacies.

 'Cause life has happened to all of us and Nancy will see certain things that may not be available or uh clients may not have thought before. And so I want to make sure that my clients are comfortable with.

Pat

Well I'll be sure to put your website in the show notes so folks can find you. Nancy, thank you for coming on to fill to capacity and what I so appreciate about what you have been talking about I think is the idea that people come to you for healing, you the healer, knows that you too are in need of healing, which makes the reciprocity so safe and beautiful. And I want to thank you for so candidly sharing parts of your story and your life. It's been such a pleasure and honor talking with you. Thank you for coming on.

Nancy

Oh, thank you, Pat, for this wonderful opportunity. I just, I'm just so much in awe. Thank you.

Pat

My pleasure. And listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. and take care of yourselves and each other. Bye.