The Faithful Leader™: Unfiltered Stories of Courage and Impact

Embracing Leadership: Dr. Curtis Ellis on Mentorship, Faith, and Personal Growth

• Dr. Megan Weinkauf • Season 1 • Episode 15

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In this episode of The Faithful Leader Podcast, Dr. Megan Weinkauf welcomes her friend and former boss, Dr. William Curtis Ellis, to discuss the realities of leadership, resilience, and faith. Dr. Ellis shares his unexpected journey into higher education, the lessons he’s learned from navigating leadership challenges, and how he maintains joy and gratitude amid adversity.

With wisdom rooted in experience, Dr. Ellis unpacks the importance of managing tensions versus solving problems, prioritizing people over institutions, and cultivating resilience in both students and leaders. He also offers practical insights into balancing work and family, maintaining self-care, and embracing mentorship.

Whether you’re a seasoned leader or just beginning your journey, this conversation will inspire you to lead with integrity, stay grounded in your values, and remember that leadership is ultimately about serving and empowering others.

Tune in and be encouraged to love God, love people, do your best, and have fun!

🔗 Connect with Dr. William Curtis Ellis on LinkedIn

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Faithful Leader Podcast. I'm Dr Megan Weinkauf and this is a show for leaders in the trenches. Together, we'll explore the stories of those who have faced the fires of hell and emerged with the spirit unbroken, fighting to stay joyful and grateful. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey, the Faithful Leader Show inspires leader. Or just starting your journey, the Faithful Leader Show inspires guides and reminds you that you're never alone. Together, let's forge a path to compassionate and courageous faithful leadership. Welcome to the Faithful Leader Podcast. I am so excited to have my friend, my former boss, dr William Curtis Ellis, with us today. So, dr Ellis, will you share a little bit about yourself, your journey and leadership, anything that you?

Speaker 2:

want Sure. Thanks for having me, Dr Weinkauf. If you would call me Curtis, the rest of this would be great. I'm going to call you Megan and I'm still a little sad about the former boss part because I love you to death. But thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

You are still my boss because I'm an adjunct right, so I guess there is some sort of dotted line that still exists, right, yeah, I'm just holding out hope, that's all. No, thank you for having me, it's. You know, I love this question that you're asking, right, like even just to say, tell me about your journey as a leader, because I don't think. I don't think I've ever really thought about myself as a leader intentionally. Very often I know that that is the case, but when I look back on it, there's just something about my wiring.

Speaker 2:

I guess that I even noticed, I guess an undergrad right as I was like, um, not the uh as well behaved person as I am now, but I was like this weird liaison between, like the troublemakers and like the student government association and the administration, right.

Speaker 2:

So I've always ended up in this kind of weird place and, and the same way as a as a graduate student, um, and so when I uh first got into higher, got into higher education at Auburn, montgomery, it wasn't even two years before I had an administrative position as the director of graduate programs for the School of Sciences where I was, and so I think I've had this conversation with mentors and we laugh a lot because a lot of us have ended up in formal leadership positions and administration around higher education and other walks, and we studied institutions as political scientists. We're all sort of Congress scholars in some way shape or form, and so I think in some way I value institutions, and institutions don't maintain themselves. But we also laugh that maybe we don't suffer fools well either, and so if some knuckleheads got to make a decision, why not? Why not be this knucklehead? So I just kind of always find myself in these spots.

Speaker 1:

So did you always know you were going to go into higher education, or you? You just followed the path and just kind of led you there.

Speaker 2:

No Long story short. I kind of realized that I was not on a healthy path and met with a mentor and she basically asked me if I was still too cool to go to grad school. And I said, you know, probably not too cool to do anything right now at this point, if we're being honest. And so I went down that road. I definitely thought that I was going to work in politics until the first time I got in a classroom. And the first time I got in a classroom with college students I was like, oh OK, in a classroom with college students. I was like, oh okay.

Speaker 2:

And I did go and work on the Hill for a year while I was writing my dissertation and I enjoyed it. And it was a very similar experience to a lot of my life experiences where, very quickly, it was like I was treated as more than like a fellow or an intern. I was very quickly viewed as a competent sort of member of the staff and left alone with people in meetings, right, the directors would go do other things, and so I became sort of this trusted person that people thought highly of and they were willing to open doors for me. But I really felt like the best part of me came out in the classroom and I was early in my walk with Christ and sort of life transformation at that time, in DC as well, and so maybe it was a little bit of caution on my own part, but I wanted to be in a spot that I felt like helped to bring out the best of me, um, instead of in a spot where I felt like I was resisting um the not best of me to bring out the best of me. If that makes sense and and politics can, can do that to you.

Speaker 2:

And I don't know that I was, I was quite ready for that at that time. Who knows what the future might have. But so I went back, went back into into academics and I like research and I would like to think I'm a competent researcher. But I love college students a lot, a lot. I don't think there, no matter, I don't think there'll be ever be a time in life where I won't be trying to mentor um or invest in um college age people. And and Aaron, um, my wife is the same, um, she, she loves um those folks too.

Speaker 2:

So even if even if it's just investing in in a 20 year old who's waiting tables on a Friday night while we're out to dinner. That's just. We just love to do that.

Speaker 1:

Oh, they are the best. I love college students too. Well, thank you for sharing your your journey. I know that you've been thrown into the fire many times, a lot of different challenges as a leader, and people who listen to this show either first time leaders they might be in college, you know, emerging in their leadership development, so people who have been in it a while and just struggling right, because leadership can be hard and I would love for you to share. Share about a challenge that you've faced as a leader and how you maintained joy and gratitude during that period and how you, how you navigate all the things that you do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's such a deep question there's. So there's so much to that. I think first thing is that if leading was easy, there wouldn't be so many vacant leadership positions, right? And so I think it's important for people to know that the position that you're in wouldn't have been available if it was easy. If it was easy, and so if we I can get a little melancholy sometimes, but we also have to not just bippity bop through life thinking that, oh, I'll be good at this and it'll be easy, because if you are being trusted with those responsibilities to oversee people, to care for people, to invest in people, to maintain an institution, to grow an institution it's going to be difficult. The bigger the team is, the broader your responsibilities are, the more that can go wrong, and not even go wrong in a way that you could have stopped it from going wrong.

Speaker 2:

I have a very large college. We have about 750 students. I have around 45 full-time faculty, around 10 full-time staff members. I think it's something like 46 majors across 13 disciplines and or 46 programs across 13 disciplines, and so that's just a lot, right? So people get sick, people move on to other opportunities. Organizations change, right. The people above you can change. New initiatives can be launched that you maybe didn't get to inform, right? So the more responsibility that you've been trusted with, the more people that you've been trusted to care for, yes, that's a sign of what people see in you and what the Lord might be trusting someone with, but it also means that there's a lot more that can go a little sideways for you, right? I mean, right now we've opened a new building. We had a pipe that wasn't sealed properly that caused a flood, so now we're having those repairs done. We just had our first Oklahoma-style wind and rainstorm since the building had been open, and so we found all the places where the seals aren't quite sealed. I've got a faculty member in another unit who went into the hospital, and so, really, when you're in, when you're in it, the wind doesn't stop blowing, the rain doesn't stop falling, and that just is what it is.

Speaker 2:

And so I don't think in the question that you sent me in the notes you used the word insurmountable, and I just I don't know that I've ever looked at anything that was in front of me as insurmountable. I think I can. I have a pragmatic switch that I'm able to throw. That's just like okay, we've just got to figure out a path to get this done, and I think if you invest in people and you surround yourself with healthy people, people that you care about, people that you believe in, people that you trust, collaboration makes it really easy to solve a lot of problems at least healthy collaboration does. And so I love my team. You were a part of that team for a while and I loved having you as a part of that team, and so we just have to work together and find our way through it.

Speaker 2:

And I think you know you say how do I maintain joy and things like that? I love God, love people, do your best and have fun. Love people, do your best and have fun. It's kind of we stole that from the, the kids church that we were in when, when we lived in Alabama, and and we keep it. So I guess, shout out to Church of the Highlands on that and that's just. You know you had the sign in your office, right Like College of Arts and Cultural Studies love God, love people, do your best and have fun.

Speaker 2:

And so we have to remember to have fun and we can't take it too seriously. It's all pretend, right, like humans, we're just out here trying to take dominion, and some of us feel led to take dominion by starting universities or starting businesses or um, right, and so it's. This is all sort of um, man-made and uh. So I've just, I've always prioritized um, aaron and and Aaron and the kids, and then the people in your organization. And not that you don't have to, you do have to look out for the organization, but many organizations could do a better job at looking after the people that look after them. And so, just trying to keep that in front of my mind, because, whatever your organization is and I know that a lot of this is shaped by my own worldview but man created the university, god created you. And so, when you are in my care, because you're a part of my team, right, you're not just there to do things for me. Because you're a part of my team, right, you're not just there to do things for me, you're there to be put in positions, to be empowered to be successful and to maximize your gifts and your talents, and I, as a leader of an organization, will reap benefits from putting you in a position to be successful, and so I try very hard to do that.

Speaker 2:

I've had lots of people over the years move on from my team, I think almost all of them I've sent with a blessing and with a hug and with excitement because they were put in a position to do whatever it is they needed to do to open doors to new opportunities. And I've been in arguments before with people who I once this is a very vivid memory in a training program had one of the staff people of that organization kind of snipe at me and call me an opportunist. And it was really funny because like an hour and a half later we're in a training session with the actual head of the organization and he talks about why he views himself as an opportunist and really what he was saying is that it's kind of like you don't have to get ready. If you stay ready, if you keep your things in order and you stay on top of what's been put before you, then when new opportunities open you're in position to seize those opportunities. And so it's not always so much coming up with the best plan for the long term, sometimes it's just being on top of the present in a way that allows you to step through doors when they open.

Speaker 2:

And so I mean all of those different university, whether it's a small business, a search firm. You know they're real. Those institutions are real and they have value, but they're not necessarily what's actually important. And so when things go awry and it gets hard in the institution, I try to remember that I do have real things Aaron and Hannah and Mariah and Levi and Grace and my parents. That's really what I've been tasked to care for and to model, and so I want them to see the way that I treat people. I want them to have a good example for them. I one of how did I end up getting emotional? Look what you did. I love. I love that for a couple of years, my kids thought my secretary was my boss.

Speaker 1:

Oh.

Speaker 2:

Right, Because I don't ever want to. We were all created in God's image and, regardless of whether you make $10 an hour or $300,000 a year, you have the same value. And so for my kids to think that Miss Conda was my boss means that I don't treat her like she's anything less than me, right? And so that's what matters, right. I want to raise, I want to be a part of a family that is people that those around us know can be trusted, are safe, will invest in you, will care about you will never, I don't know. People are what matters.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I mean I know that to be true of you as a I would say, a transformational leader.

Speaker 1:

You know, and that goes for the people who work under you, your students you see the potential in people and then you open up the doors of opportunity to let them soar and you give them the you know, the resources and the encouragement and the support to do so. But also, at the same time and what I see is the greatest need even I mean for all of humanity, but even with walking alongside college students and even a lot of colleagues too is the ability to hold capacity for others, to process, and I believe that you do that very well. You don't try to pull out of a hard conversation or like processing. You're just safe. You're safe to process all the things with, and we know that you're not going to retaliate. We know that you're not going to, you know, just harbor anger or resentment in any way for speaking the truth and being honest, because in that, in those moments and in the processing, that's whenever you solve the greatest problems, and I really appreciate that about you.

Speaker 2:

That's very, that's very kind of Megan. Um, you know, I think people have to be able to process. I want, I can't possibly stay on top of, you know, that organization that I described a few minutes ago. I can't possibly stay on top of all the things. I can't possibly know everything, possibly make all the decisions I have to. I have to trust other people and I can't, and they have to trust me. Right, If for me to be able to trust them, they have to trust me, and for them to be able to trust me, they have to be able to say whatever they feel like needs to be said. And some days that makes me a therapist and some days that makes me a friend. And then, you know, sometimes I still have to say, okay, that's all true and I agree with you, but this is what we have to do. And so you know, yeah, it still has to get done, and I and I, it still has to get done, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it still has to get done and I can't, yeah, I don't know any other way, and I think part of that is because I know that I need that. I know that I need to be able to do those things in myself. I need to have people that I can just spill it with. You know, I was feeling very. Yesterday is a great example. I was.

Speaker 2:

I've kind of fell underwater the last few days and Aaron and I got to chatting in the kitchen after doing. You know, we got one kid take her to her first job. Other kids got boxing lessons, other kids got art lessons. Like we get a few minutes in the kitchen. She and the 10-year-old are baking cookies and we processed a bunch of stuff together that I don't think we realized that we needed to process, but we realized that it had been three or four days since we kind of connected in that way and it was really cool because it turned into we actually processed.

Speaker 2:

You know, married for 15 years, we're still improving our communication and we had some pretty big revelations just sort of randomly in the kitchen about why we communicate the way that we do sometimes and how we can do that better and learned ways to more effectively express ourselves with each other, just kind of like in that moment. And we're a family. We have those conversations in front of the children, right? I want the children to learn that your relationship should be safe in that way that you should be able to talk to people about real things. Emotions are real. Emotions aren't always true, but they're real. Circumstances are real. Challenges are real. Emotions aren't always true, but they're real. Circumstances are real, challenges are real and, that said right, nothing surprises God and God's in control, and we have to try not to be overcome with worry of the day. But you do have to process those things and, as your listeners are probably finding out right now, I'm a little bit of a verbal processor, right. So I need those moments of connection in that sense.

Speaker 2:

And Erin's not Erin's more of an introvert. I envy the way that she can work through her emotions with herself in a journal. If I work through my emotions in a journal, I still need to talk to somebody about them is what I have found over the years, and so I just try to create that space for my team Because I want them to be able to be their best selves. I've had someone tell me before. I don't want to be sad at work, I don't want you to be sad. I don't want you to be sad best selves. You know, I've had someone tell me before I don't want to be sad at work, I don't want you to be sad, I don't want you to be sad at work. So let's talk about that. What is it that's making you sad?

Speaker 2:

you know so if people can't say that to their supervisor or their manager or their leader or their mentor, then eventually the relationship will erode, and it might not erode in a way that anyone's aware of, but the organization will suffer in the long term and the people will suffer in the long term and you'll look back later and realize that that wasn't the path we should have taken.

Speaker 1:

That's so good. Well, I do relate with your pragmatic switch. I can turn that switch on and get the task done. I know that not everyone is like that and I've learned that over the years leading a lot of different people. So my next question is about cultivating resilience also in students, because you have a lot of different people. So my next question is about cultivating resilience also in students, because you have a lot of conversations with students and anybody that you lead, from your staff, from the faculty, from the students, because all those are diverse populations. So how do you cultivate resilience in yourself and those that you lead?

Speaker 2:

so I think the little wisdom nugget that has enabled me to walk in the level of resilience that I do, um, actually came from the Andy Stanley leadership podcast, and so shout out to him Um, we've never met, but he sure has mentored me in ways that he might never know. But they talk about in their organization. They talk about the difference between problems to solve and tensions to manage, and if we don't process our situations and our circumstances in a healthy way and we don't have that safe space, you will end up trying to solve everything and not everything's solvable. There are tensions that are actually supposed to exist. And so I think my oldest and I she's 19 and we have conversations about resilience all the time which has caused her to start using the verb to resile and I love it because it's an awkward word and no one says it, so we would text each other periodically that just says I will resile, wait, wait, spell. R-e-s-i-l. R-e-s-i-l-e.

Speaker 2:

E okay, I-L-E yeah, and I think we actually we weren't convinced that was correct. So we like looked it up and I think it is correct. But if any of my English faculty are listening, they can let me know if that was, if I just made up a word.

Speaker 2:

I love it so. So I think most of life things that can feel like problems are actually just tensions, and an example I'll give is in any organization there are resource constraints. Okay, some organizations have more resource constraints than others, right, some organizations have less cashflow, have less budget to work with, have less human resources than others, budget to work with, have less human resources than others. But every organization has multiple priorities or multiple things it's trying to accomplish.

Speaker 2:

Even if all it is, even if you just have one service to provide and you have one employee, there's a tension between compensating that employee and the resources that are needed to provide the service. So, like, resource constraints are a tension you can't solve. You can't solve your budget right, as long as there's resource constraints, as long as there's any sort of limit on your resources. You can't solve the tension between resourcing all the priorities and the amount of resources that you have, because even if your, if your budget's a hundred million dollars, you're going to wish it was $110 million, and if your budget's $50,000, you're going to wish it was $60,000. Um, and I think just a lot of times it's easy to get caught up in I have to solve this problem, but what you'll, what, what? Um, what Andy Stanley talks about that I found to be so powerful, is that if you try to solve tensions, you just cause yourself more problems because you're never going to actually solve it. So you just get increasingly frustrated, right, because you, oh, we have this problem, okay, this is what we're going to do to solve it, oh, the problem's back and you keep, you keep playing this ping pong game, and that can be really exhausting, and so I think some of it is accepting that some things are just tensions right Now. There are some things that are problems. Right, a flooded building, for example, is a problem. We can fix it. Right, it takes some patience and it creates logistic challenges, but you can navigate it. You can solve the problem and you can move on to the next thing. But there will always be tensions in life. There's always going to be tensions in a family. Right, where you live only provides so much space. Whatever resources you have maybe you're a one-car family, maybe you're a no you have, maybe you're a one-car family, maybe you're a no-car family, maybe you're a four-car family You're still just going to have tensions of finding time. If you are a working professional who has a family, you're always going to have some degree of tension between giving your time to the things that you value. If you're a college student, you're always going to have the tensions of doing the things I want to do as a 20-year-old and making the most of the opportunity that I have to be in college. There's not a solution. Right, we have to learn what our yeses are. We have to figure out what our own priorities are. One of the things I tell college students a lot is you have to.

Speaker 2:

I strongly recommend that you figure out what your core principles are before you're in the fire, because if you want to be an ethical leader or an ethical person or a person that values certain things, when you're in the fire is not the time to determine what your boundaries are, because if you're in the fire and you have to set your boundaries, you're probably going to set your boundaries in a place that is not representative of what you hope to live up to. If you have determined that you cannot, that your principles and I guess I'll apply this to politics here for a second. You've got to determine in advance whether or not you can be bought right. If you're in the fire and the car payments due and your spouse has lost their job and you have the opportunity to be bought right. If you're in the fire and the car payments do and your spouse has lost their job and you have the opportunity to be bought and you have to figure that out, then that's tough. There's a good chance you might go ahead and say I'll, I'll take the money, I'll be bought, I'll compromise to get through this situation.

Speaker 2:

So you kind of have to try to set those things you know love God, love people, do your best and have fun.

Speaker 2:

Really, that's the reason I kind of championed those priorities came from my kids wanting to figure out what the rules of the house were, which turned into a really embarrassing like 15 minutes at dinner where they basically told us everything they've ever been told not to do or been told no for, and just any parent.

Speaker 2:

I just want you to know that's not a list you want to listen to. And that was kind of the moment of discernment or the epiphany moment for us when we realized wait, wait, wait. What are our core values? And so we kind of filter things through that lens. Are we loving God? Are we loving people? Are we doing our best? Are we having fun? If we're doing that, then what we're doing is probably okay. If we focus on what we're not going to do, we're just we're going to have a never ending list of things and there'll always be things to add to that list. But figure out what your yeses are, figure out what the filter is that you want to operate your life through and pursue that and just every once in a while, make the time to step back and ask yourself the question.

Speaker 2:

If you're doing that and if you're a leader and there are people under your care, that means letting them tell you that they don't feel like you're loving them or they don't feel like we're having fun and be able to reflect on that, be able to hear that, be able to process that and be able to have the security to know that you don't have to have an answer in the moment. You've heard me say I don't know a million times. Yeah, but then you're like, let's figure it out.

Speaker 1:

And then you're good at wanting a neat I mean okay with pivoting and going a different direction. So that's that's important too, and that goes into my next question about practical. So what are some of those practical ways that you show up well for people in your care, because I know you work out. I know that you have some rhythms and practices that help you as a leader and that might be beneficial to someone today.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think this might be the first time in a long time I've had to think about this intentionally, so I might flunk my way through this answer. I think you do have to keep things about you that help you remember that, whatever your, your studies, your organization, your work isn't the only thing and I'm not even trying to make this a debate about wholesale culture and all that right I firmly believe you should try your best. I don't necessarily think we have to be miserable while we're trying our best, and I don't think misery is a sign that you are trying your best, and I don't think misery is a sign that you are trying your best. But so for me, I think the working out gives me an outlet. Nothing will help you realize the importance of trying to maintain your physical fitness than when you have to care for an ailing elder, whether it's a parent or a grandparent, and you see the muscle deterioration and you see the difficulty getting around. And I've always tried to stay active. I think it's mostly been the social side of staying active. That's a good place for me to be an extrovert. I'm kind of an extroverted introvert, so it's a little. You get a little hairy sometimes, so so I guess I'll say self-care. So so I guess I'll say self-care. But everybody's self-care kind of has to look look differently because it has to fit you.

Speaker 2:

There have been seasons in life where my rhythm was get up at four o'clock in the morning. I have some devotional time, eat breakfast, go work out, go to work, come home, family, whatever else. Do it again the next day. And then there's a day that I'll never forget where I realized my pregnant wife was really having a hard time and it clicked in my head you can't leave her in the mornings anymore. And it clicked in my head you can't leave her in the mornings anymore. And so I had to rearrange my rhythms. But I was rearranging my rhythms around my priorities, right. So I think working out is important. I think having relationships that allow you to process your life right Trusted friends, healthy relationships so you know I just gosh these things help you remember what's real right. So back to my little thing that you know a lot of people might be tired of me saying like, back to this all being pretend, right, the stuff that we're creating is all pretend, not saying it doesn't have value, not saying that it's not worth the effort and work of institutions. But remembering what is real and you and you being healthy so that you can impact the others around you in a healthy way is real. Um, generational trauma is real, and if you want to interrupt those cycles you have to investigate those cycles and you have to change those cycles.

Speaker 2:

Um, so I, um, my, my body type leads me to be a little bit of a chubby person, and as a kid I was very insecure about that. Um, and you know me, I, I take have fun seriously. So there's always jokes, and so one of the things I did as a defense mechanism was kind of make myself fat boy and make those jokes about myself to protect myself from the possibility that those around me were going to make those jokes. Right, come to find out as an adult, none of that was even remotely true. Was I a little soft in the middle? Absolutely. But did anyone other than me, does anyone other than me, look at me and think, oh, he's a bit. You know he's a, he's a overweight person? No, but I took on that right. So that's given me all kinds of insecurities, and so I've tried to model being active for my family, but I don't talk about it very much, probably not enough, because I don't want to give anyone else right. I've got boys that kind of share my genetics. I've got daughters that just deal with the life of being a woman in America, and so I've been very cautious to not pass on any of those sort of complexes about about self.

Speaker 2:

And two weeks ago everyone in my family worked out on their own. Like everyone in my family at some point during the week, including the 10 year old, decided to exercise in some way shape or form, including the 10 year old decided to exercise in some way shape or form, and that was just an awesome moment because it was like okay, 15 years of, they know that I go run Turkey mountain. They know that I go to the gym. They know that I box and the cool thing is it might be because of my 12 year old right, and I give him credit for it, but he wanted to get into some sort of combat type activity, so we ended up at this boxing gym. He thought it was great the most. You know I'm a very efficiency driven person. The most cost-effective membership gives me full access to the gym and the boxing classes as well, so I started doing it.

Speaker 2:

Erin liked the results that she was seeing. So she started being more conscientious about working out. That was the appropriate way to say that on this podcast, right? And my girls have kind of taken it up on their own. The 19-year-old she kind of started working out on her own when she was in high school and I think her little sister saw that. So she'll work out in her room like behind a closed door. It's pretty funny, like no one knows, but she's doing it. But then the boys you know. Finally, the 10-year old sees everybody else doing it and he, I guess, started talking to Aaron one day about, um, how to be healthy and how to change your body, or things like that, in the car on the way to school. And the next thing I know he's written um workout goals on the whiteboard on the fridge and, like the 10 year olds, like walking on the treadmill and it was just like that's awesome. And so you know, I think you just you just have to identify what's important and I think you have to walk that out and if you're really lucky, that'll help influence the people around you, and I know that that's what happened for me.

Speaker 2:

I hadn't worked out in quite a while when I came to work here and I had an administrative assistant who went to work out every day at lunchtime and every day she said do you want to come? Do you want to come, Do you want to come? And you know the noontime workout group here. So finally I was like yes, and I got back into it. Um and uh, that's been huge. Um, because I don't. I don't think I could juggle the things that I juggle if I wasn't maintaining those outlets, because I cannot.

Speaker 2:

People have always told me that I'm good at drawing boundaries and not taking stuff home, and I honestly can't say that I've ever done that purposefully. But I guess I actually have, because I've tried to keep the main thing, the main thing. And so what are the things of value that I've been trusted with? Well, that's first things. First is my family, and so if I keep those things in order and I have friends in academics and we've talked about this I think we've.

Speaker 2:

We've managed to publish well, without all the sleepless nights of so many scholars that we hear about. We've managed to earn promotion quickly, to be trusted with leadership positions, and we've also tried to very much keep the main things, the main things, and I think that in some ways, um, whatever your perspective is whether it's God or the universe, um, or however you want to phrase it I think if you keep things in that right order, there's rewards for that. Um, so I I do. I do just think that you have to really be honest about who you are and what you need, um, so that you can maintain what you've been trusted with well, um, and for me that's absolutely like maintaining the rhythm of. You know, boxing is also great because you get to punch something and it's okay. So, um, that that's helpful.

Speaker 2:

It's good, it's good, it's good yeah, you know sometimes they're like how did you, did you just our? The gym has like little measure, has a, has a impact app that measures things. Um, so it like tells you how many punches you threw and calculate some sort of point score or whatever. And there'll definitely be days where people are like how did you score that many points in 30 minutes?

Speaker 2:

and it's like well it's been a week long story, just let me get it out so I can maintain that joy and gratitude yeah, I want to be in a good mood when I go home instead of being cranky right, right, yeah, just punch the bag until until you're good, that's good well, but like I also do little stuff, like I keep an earpod in my ear and bop around the music and I just like, if I feel myself being down, I'll put on upbeat music, like just things like that, just curating your self-awareness, right, that's a really, that's a really big deal, because you can't you can't figure out what those rhythms are, that you need not hunkering down in your identity to do the whole. This is just the way that I am thing, and so I can walk around hurting everybody's feelings, like that's not what we're talking about, talking about self-care and knowing yourself and and prioritizing things, but like curating that self-awareness that's good, that's really good.

Speaker 1:

Well, I know you to be a faithful leader and just being faithful in all that you do, faithful to your people and your family, and I love everything that you're talking about today. But I want to know who, who inspired you to to be a faithful leader, to continue when things were hard and and to trust God in the um, I think, man, there's some levels to that.

Speaker 2:

Um, my dad isn't. You know, none of us are perfect, um, but I definitely saw him kind of grind right and uh, I I do. I do wish sort of for him that he could have had less struggles and challenges, you know, but that's the. That's the man who came home from work, or came home from working late and found me sitting on the bed pretty emotional after a really really bad first day of basketball tryouts as a freshman in high school, um, and just kind of said to me like okay, so, so are you just going to quit? Are you going to keep trying? Um, and you know I, so he, you know he, he lost his dad when he was 13 and um, you know it was back in the day my grandma had never driven, my grandma had never driven, my grandma had never had a job, her parents lived with him. So just knowing his story and seeing the opportunities that he created for me, so that's one Um.

Speaker 2:

When, um, aaron is somebody who, um, it's better when she tells these stories, but she's somebody who's always seen me for um, the potential that God had for me, not whoever I've been in any given moment, um, and then when I was in graduate school, um, and I first started, uh, following Christ, I had um he's still a wonderful friend, um, at the time he was, I guess, more my pastor and my mentor and now we're just, we're just friends, which he's still my mentor and in a lot of ways. But, um, but relationships gotten a my mentor in a lot of ways, but relationships have gotten a little bit more reciprocal over the years. By the name of Jeff Robinette, and he would listen to you, he would sit through the difficult conversations, the difficult conversations. He would help you find a path to self-discovery or discovering your solutions. He wouldn't just tell you what to do. So I think there's just lots of folks like that that have crossed my path over the years and I've just I've tried to to adopt and model some of the ways that they, that they go about doing things.

Speaker 2:

Actually, it's something that I've realized is a little bit of one of my weaknesses right now. I think I have some members of my team who, just by their personalities, they need a little bit more guided instruction and I and I think I probably overemphasize not telling people what to do, because I believe in the context of situations and decision making, and I know that, even though I've done a lot of the jobs that are in front of my team, I haven't done those jobs with the team that they have to do those jobs with, and so I'm very hesitant to tell people what to do, and so I'm very hesitant to tell people what to do. So I try to help people find a path to self-discovery, but you also have to learn the personalities of those around you, which is why you have to hear them out. I kind of got lost on what your question was at this point, but I've really just I've tried to model the folks that I've just. You know, somebody said to me once if you want to be mentored, right, look around, right, who do you think you want your like? Look around at whose life looks like something you want your life to be like, and so you know, so, like for someone like Jeff, I looked around and he had a healthy marriage and at the time he had teenagers and he had as healthy of a relationship it seems like that you can have with your teenagers and he was shepherding people in a church and investing in others and it was like, okay, I want to hear from him and oh, this is so good. So I went to all right, for the really legalistic Christians, just hold on to your seats for a second.

Speaker 2:

So we went to men's poker night at the church, right, men's poker night at the church. Poker night at the church right, men's poker night at the church. And I'm like I'm like 24, 25, probably right 26. I'm dating the woman that I'm very confident is going to be my fiance pretty soon, right, and going to be my wife one day. And I'm at poker night and these older guys are making like the ball and chain jokes and, like you know, maybe they went out, maybe they went out in like the first 30 minutes and they're like making the jokes about like well, I might as well sit around and watch because I don't want to go home yet, and stuff like that. And I remember going to uh, I went to Jeff the next day and I said Jeff, I said I don't want to be that husband.

Speaker 2:

You're not that husband, how do you not be that husband? And he said you've done it. And I was like what do you mean? He was like you just have to decide. You don't want to be that husband. And I was like oh, and so I think that goes back a little bit to the setting your principles right, like what decide who you want to be, don't let.

Speaker 2:

Don't let your environment form you right if you, if you know what you want to be and you know how you want to treat people, then do that. And it seems really simple and I think it actually is. I think there are some things that we just over complicate, but he was basically. He was like the fact that you're sitting here in my office recognizing that you don't want to be that. He was like that step one. He was like you're. He was like you're three quarters of the way there. Um, he's like now you do have to figure out how to love your wife well and, um, things of that nature. But um, you've, you've kind of already made the commitment. So if you want to have the types of opportunities and types of relationships you see, other people have, make time to learn from those people. And you do have to make time. And I think that's one thing I'll also tell college students being mentored is a very earnest decision that you have to make and it's inconvenient and it takes effort.

Speaker 2:

And there's a young man by the name of Josh Catania who is a campus pastor for a life church in Des Moines, iowa. I love him to death. He's kind of my first son, I think. Actually, if you really think about it. I think he knows that we were texting last night. He's a grown man now. He's married, he has kids, he's a campus pastor, he's a better man than I am, but, for whatever reason, he decided he wanted to learn from me. And he was like I know you're busy, you got all these kids, you're a professor, you lead these small groups, you serve at church, you do all this stuff. He's like when would it be okay for me to just be around? He didn't. He didn't try to, he didn't try to get me to schedule coffee with him. Right, he recognized that, like I was already busy. For whatever reason, he saw something in our household that he wanted to learn, that he wanted to emulate, and he recognized that he had to make the time to fit into my life. Right, and it was so wise, Right, it's so wise. And I was like you know what I was like I teach in the master's program on Tuesday nights and I get out of class at eight and when I get out of class, I go do the grocery shopping for the family for the week. I was like meet me at Publix at 815 on Tuesday nights and the kid would literally walk around the grocery store with me and ask me questions, and I think so often we want to. We there may be, and it's understandable. I'm not trying to make anybody feel bad, but so often we like okay, well, I want to learn from this person. Are you available for lunch on Tuesday? Are you available for lunch on Wednesday? You know the um, your mentors, um, that that go to church with us. Um, I, I spoke to them the other day and he's booked for lunches for like three months, right?

Speaker 2:

So if you're, if you're a young person, if you're a college student, you have all the time in the world. I know you might not feel like it. I need you to remember that if you're enrolled in 18 hours of coursework and you're and you're trying to work a full time job, that that is an active decision that you are making. The world is not happening to you. Yes, you're exhausted, you're trying to work an 80-hour week. That's hard. But if you want to be mentored and you're 19, 20, 21, 22, and you don't have spouse, children, all those things and you want to learn from somebody, go find time to sit at their feet. And you want to learn from somebody, go find time to sit at their feet. Don't try to force them to make time for you. Like, if you really want it, just find ways to be around and watch and learn and listen and ask, and you'd be amazed at what you can get from that. And we had some of the best times and the best conversations just walking the aisles of Publix in Montgomery Alabama.

Speaker 1:

I love that. Oh, thank you for sharing all of that. That's so good, it's so good. Well, I know we're coming to the end of our time today, but I want you to share your last piece of wisdom with everyone on an action step to lead better. Like what? What should they do today?

Speaker 2:

love god, love people, do your best and have fun. Um, I man, just I just see others as human, see others as human. Life has its challenges and everybody's got their stuff going on and no one sees the world the way that you see the world. No one experiences the world the way that you see the world. And if you can have enough, if you can just purposely try to function with some transparency, with some empathy, with some honesty and just be willing to collaborate with others in this walk of life, you'll find so much joy in that. If you, if you just keep your head down and and try to push through the things of this world, that's all you'll see. And and we're we're.

Speaker 2:

You know we're surrounded by depression, we're surrounded by hypertension, we're surrounded by anger, and those are choices. Like those are choices we don't. We don't, we don't have to view the world that way. So just just see the person standing next to you as your neighbor that was made the same way you were made and has all the same kinds of ups and downs that you do, but at the same time, has none of the same ups and downs as you do. And I think, the more that you, you learn to see everybody else's experiences for their own individual experiences. You can learn so much about yourself and learn so much about others and yeah, I think that's that's one way to just be coachable. Like, that's just, none of us have it figured out and if you try to trick yourself into thinking you have it figured out, I think you're going to be a pretty miserable person.

Speaker 1:

I know someone apologized for I don't know. It was something that they didn't do, or a ball dropped, or it wasn't even that big of a deal. I said it's all right, you're human, we're all human. It's going to happen, especially in today's world.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sometimes a B plus is all right. Yeah, yeah, sometimes a B is okay yeah.

Speaker 1:

And a 90 and a hundred are both an A in most classes.

Speaker 2:

I had this happen the other day, right. So I had the same administrative assistant for nine years assistant for nine years, okay, and she was a grown woman when I was a um let's say less mature leader, right, like she's a grownup, she's seen it all she's had. She's assisted people in in organizational leadership positions before her kids were grown. You know, been married for 25, 30 years, right, and my new assistant um is. I still see her as a, as a 22 year old college student. She reminds me regularly that she's 30 years old.

Speaker 2:

But the first time that she felt like she dropped a ball, right, it was a real busy day for me. It was one of those days where I wasn't upstairs in my office, so we weren't really interacting face to face very much and she forgot to process a piece of paper and, you know, was worried that it was going to affect somebody's paycheck or something like that. I don't, I don't know it was. It was something that I, having been in the institution for 10 years and having done this stuff for a long time, like it wasn't a big deal, like just all right, process it. Let whoever know that, hey, we messed this up. Like it's fine, wasn't a big deal like, just all right, process it. Let whoever know that, hey, we messed this up, like it's fine.

Speaker 2:

Well, apparently she was just like she was talking to everybody. She was so worried that I was gonna be upset. Um, and I said I was like I was like it's okay, you got a 92 today, like it's like. It was almost like she was disappointed in the lack of reaction she got from me when she was like. She was like hey, I forgot to do this and this. And I was like she was like hey, I forgot to do this and this. And I was like okay, she was like so I did this and I did this. And I was like okay, so it's taken care of. She was like yeah, I was like okay, Cool, good job, way to find the mistake and fix it. That's good. You know, perfectionism will kill you, man.

Speaker 1:

It will make it all fall into it.

Speaker 2:

That's why you do your best. Do your best. Not be perfect. Do your best.

Speaker 1:

That's right. Well, thank you for being on the show today. Curtis, william Curtis Ellis, how can people connect with you?

Speaker 2:

I guess my LinkedIn William Curtis Ellis, I'm not a great follow. I'm a little busy and I have a friend. We joke around. It's like we can't decide. We love the people that do share wonderful content on social. We also appreciate the people who don't find the ability to make that a priority. But yeah, come check me out, send me a message, I'll respond eventually.

Speaker 1:

Well, we'll link it in the show notes so everyone can go. Give you a connection.

Speaker 2:

Sure yeah, there you go, I probably need them.

Speaker 1:

Alright Well, thanks for being on the show. We appreciate you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, megan, I appreciate you.