Sanya On-Air
Sanya On-Air hosts intentional conversations with celebrities and influencers unpacking their celebrity pivotal moments while simultaneously sharing tools/resources on how to provide pipelines to access for marginalized communities.
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Sanya On-Air
Shirley Jones of The Jones Girls: Musical Journey, Influencing Jay Z, Xscape & More!
What if you could gain an insider's look into the music industry's glittering yet challenging world? Join me on "Sanya On-Air" as I sit down for an intimate conversation with Shirley Jones of The Jones Girls. Reflecting on my own journey and hiatus, I share my renewed commitment to opening doors for marginalized communities by spotlighting influential icons who have forged their own paths to success. We fondly recall the legendary contributions of entertainment figures, ensuring their legacies resonate with today's generation through powerful storytelling and nostalgia.
In this heartfelt episode, Shirley Jones takes us through her incredible journey from Detroit's Motown scene to international stardom. Hear firsthand accounts of her upbringing in a musically blessed family and how The Jones Girls' timeless hits like "Who Can I Run To" and "Nights Over Egypt" have left an indelible mark on R&B history. Shirley offers a candid look at the triumphs and trials faced by the trio, including the emotional complexities of performing and collaborating with legends like Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin, and Teddy Pendergrass.
Finally, we tackle crucial issues such as ownership of music masters, colorism, and the importance of education amidst rising fame. Shirley opens up about the impact of family support, the struggles with alcoholism, and the ongoing passion for music that transcends commercial success. We close with a thoughtful discussion on building pipelines to access for marginalized communities, underscoring our collective responsibility to uplift and inspire future generations. Subscribe now to "Sanya On-Air" for more enlightening celebrity conversations and to stay connected with the pulse of our cultural heritage.
What is the purpose? What am I trying to do? People are giving you keys, giving you gems, creating pipelines to access, talking to influential people icons about how they've done it and sharing the tips so that you can enter into that space. One thing that I do know about marginalized communities is that the Pipeline to Access is often limited. Now, if you cleaned up on Saturday mornings and your parents played old school music, then this show is for you. This time, that round of applause is just for you because you made it to another all new season of Sonia on Air. I know I know, before you say anything, I know I've been gone for a little bit, but I was protecting my peace by any means necessary, and sometimes you just have to be still. Sometimes you just have to be still, and I was still before I made this pivot, but I'm back with an all new celebrity interview. So before I tell you about today's guest, nothing's changed. Do a quick favor Subscribe. Make sure you subscribe to every Sonya on air streaming platform. Ok, so Sonya streams across just about every major platform, but if you're watching this on YouTube, make sure that you press the notification bell that way, every time I upload an all new Sonya on air celebrity interview. You'll be the first ones to know. So during my time away, I had some time to think. I had to think about this platform in particular, like what is the purpose? What am I trying to do? There's so much salaciousness in the entire world not just on the internet, but the entire world and there's few people, few people. I won't say there isn't anyone, but there's very few people who are giving you keys, giving you gems, creating pipelines to access, talking to influential people icons about how they've done it and sharing the tips so that you can enter into that space. One thing that I do know about marginalized communities is that the pipeline to access is often limited. It's so limited that sometimes it just seems non-existent. So this is what I want to do while I have celebrities in my sign on your studios, I just want to talk about their pivotal moments. I want to talk about how they have benefited from pipelines of access or created pipelines of access themselves.
Sanya:So let me tell you about today's guest. But did you subscribe yet? Did you subscribe? Did you hit the notification bell? I got all day. I made y'all wait for a new show, so I got all day. Okay, today's guest. I'm excited.
Sanya:Let me tell you, this is a trip down memory lane just for me and, I'm sure, other people watching this show. So, if you're watching the show, this is who's this show for? This show is for the classy, sophisticated woman who might be a mother or she isn't, but she was born during a certain era of hip hop. Ok, we'll see age, but she was born during, during a certain era of hip hop, certain era of music where we grew up listening to songs in the 50s, 60s and 70s as we cleaned up on Saturdays. Now, if you cleaned up on Saturday mornings and your parents played old school music, then this show is for you, because I'm reaching back to so many legends, so many icons across the entertainment industry, just to remind you all. They're still here and we need to pay homage and also give them their flowers, because this new generation of entertainers, of influencers they really don't know their history, child. No, they don't, but Sonia Oner is going to give it to them every time I have a celebrity interview. So, now that you've subscribed, right, right, okay, let me tell you about today's guest. Now, every Saturday morning, when I was leaving because my parents had me cleaning okay, on my knees, hands and knees just scrubbing, just scrubbing. One thing if you go to somebody's bathroom and if you look at the toilet, you know the base of the toilet. If it's dirty, leave, run, run. Ok, I digress.
Sanya:Today's guest, shirley Jones. How many of you are familiar with the Jones girls? Me? Ok, once, if you forgot, because you know, sometimes, sometimes we forget. I know I'm at a certain, sometimes I may forget. So shirley jones is one third of the trio, the jones girls. Right, she was the lead singer and her other two sisters made up the other part of the trio. Now, did you know this?
Sanya:Escape was not the first group to sing the R&B classic who Can I Run To. The original singers of that song, who Can I Run To, was the Jones Girls. Did you know that? Did you know that? So, once again, the Jones girls created the pipeline to access so that Escape could make that song like legendary.
Sanya:Who doesn't know Escape's rendition of who Can I Run To? It's a classic song that spans so many generations. So you need to know where music originated from. And also that song, who Can I Run To, that was originated by the Jones Girls. Guess how many times it was sampled? 49 times. 49 times that amazing song was sampled. Now, another artist who sampled that song was Faith Evans. I didn't even know, didn't even know. So you know her song, I Don't Need it from her Faith the First Lady album. Lately I've been wondering You're out here hugging the block and I'm here alone. Again, that's the Jones Girls. The Jones Girls. The original song was called Nights Over Egypt. So many fun facts and I just gave you a few.
Sanya:So we're going to take a few commercial breaks and I'm just going to jump into this conversation with Shirley Jones. Make sure you stay tuned, make sure you subscribe, make sure you hit the notification bell. Be right back. T-shirts and more. Llc is a proud Sign Me On Air sponsor. Get your customized tumblers, mugs, t-shirts, hoodies and passport holders for all of my fabulous Sign Me On Air international travelers. But let's talk about these passport holders for a moment. Travel in style with a custom passport holder. This elegant holder not only protects your passport but also personalizes it with space for up to four photos. So make sure you shop Edith's t-shirts and more LLC today. Now back to Sonia on air. Okay, so the focus of this entire conversation is going to be about your experience in the music industry and the doors that were opened for you and the doors that you opened for others. Okay, Okay.
Sanya:So let me first tell you it is really an honor to have you in my studio because, as a child growing up in Brooklyn, New York, I'm from the generation where the kids cleaned every single Saturday while the parents played music.
Shirley:Yeah.
Sanya:This is how I was introduced to the Jones girls, but I don't know if you heard me singing some of your lyrics. Yes, I did, because for me, like I said, it's nostalgic and I want to make sure that I'm introducing my daughter, who's 29, to an amazing generation of music and artists such as yourself. So what was it like growing up in Detroit and were you born in the fifties? Yes, I was.
Shirley:What was it like growing up in Detroit? Grew up in the sixties Okay, it was great, I mean it was was Motown. So one of the things I mean you would see people like Marvin Gaye you know we all kind of and Smokey Robinson, you would see them, you know. And my mom was a gospel singer so we traveled around A lot With her. She was a very popular gospel singer. In fact she was the first Black gospel singer that RCA Records signed. They signed her the same year, the same day that they signed Little Richard.
Shirley:This was before I was born and so that had to be. I guess, early 50s, 1950, in the 50s Then, with it being Motown, they had what was called the Motown Review. Every Christmas. All of the kids we would go there because the show would be like five or six acts Some years the Supremes, the Temptations, gladys Knight and the Pips and we would all put on our Christmas garb. It was always a day or two after Christmas and they would have shows all day long. And so it was great growing up in Motown.
Sanya:I can't even imagine just leaving home or getting dressed, leaving home and going to see artists such as Smokey Robinson and just the whole Motown stuff.
Shirley:It was amazing. And then when we actually started singing doing background, it was for Holland Dozier Holland. Barry Gordy gave Holland Dozier Holland their own label in Detroit. And maybe I was about 12 when we started doing background for Music Merchant, for their artists. Like we did background for Free to Pain Honeycomb, we did some background work for General Johnson and what's the name of their group? General Johnson, those guys, general Johnson, those guys. And then they were so impressed with our background singing that they even cut a couple of local records. They were local hits in Detroit. And you were 12? I was 12., yeah, but when our first local hit came out, I was 12 or 13.
Sanya:Yes, oh my gosh. But let's go back a little bit, because I remember here in New York there was a famous Broadway musical called Mama I Want to Sing. Well, you took that literally like Mama I Want to Sing. Your mom was a famous gospel singer. When did she first realize that you and your sisters had talent?
Shirley:Well, it came in steps. We're stair steps. We're really close in age. So for a while it was just my mom and I. And then one day she heard Brenda. Brenda just started harmonizing to a song that my mom and I were singing, and when she did that my mom put her in the show too. Then it was my mom, Brenda and myself. Then a little later on, one day she heard Valerie, and that's when she really realized then that she had something. And because she was the music director at our home church as well, she also, she started training our voices, you know, teaching us how to blend. She was a master on blending by having, like me, having the really high voice. She would have me pull back some and teach Val and Brenda how to, you know, come up some.
Shirley:And we practiced every, pretty much every day, Like most kids, would you know they would. Their parents would say well, you guys can stay out and play till the lights come. You know, the streetlights come on. My mom, we could stay out and play until she decided that it was time for us to rehearse and she would call us in and whether the streetlights were on or not, we would have to go in and rehearse.
Shirley:And we had a big old piano, a big picture window at the front of our house, and that's where the piano was and we'd be in there rehearsing, wanting to be outside with our friends. But then, but then the uh song sounded so good that the friends, our friends, would be gathering outside cause they could hear us through the window. And so it was fun. And then we got to the point where we enjoyed rehearsing with my mom because we knew, you know, that we kind of had something special, because we were so young and all these adults were wanting us to do background for them Holland, Dozier, Holland and we were like, OK, so we must have something going on. So that's how that all started.
Sanya:Wow, that's amazing. You know, when people see such iconic artists such as yourself, they often wonder how did they get started? Your pipeline was created through your mother. She was already in the industry, introduced it to you and your sisters. You started off becoming background singers. Now, initially, when singers enter the music industry, maybe they want to be lead singers or have their own group.
Shirley:Were you and your sisters OK with being background singers? No, I mean, we enjoy being background singers, but we also were hoping and praying that we would one day be able to have recordings. The few recordings that we put out with Holland, georgia, holland, of course, led to Curtis Mayfield hearing us, which led us to Chicago on his label by the time I was maybe 16. It was before I graduated from high school and he recorded several records. In fact there's an album out that's rare. I have a CD copy that someone gave me one time when I was over in Europe, called the Jones Girls, the Early Years, and that takes you all the way back to Music Merchant with Holland, georgia, holland and Curtis Mayfield.
Sanya:Wow, yeah, that's such a robust life and we're only at the age of 16. How did your peers treat you in high school? Did they treat you like this big time celebrity?
Shirley:Oh, yeah, my mom, once we had that first local record out, we no longer walked to school. She took us and picked us up because she was a nurse and she worked midnight. So she would take us and pick us up. And Val you know in fact in our unsung a couple of our best friends who were Val's protector, because Val was always very, very shy and consequently a lot of girls would kind of bully her they wouldn't bully Brenda or I because we were kind of right up in there, you bully me, you better look out.
Shirley:But Val was and a couple of girls always said they were in our sun because they were her protectors and they would tell those girls hey, if you're going, you know you got to come through me to get to Valerie. So that's the way they handled that. That's the way they handled that. But yeah, they knew, in fact I was in the. It was a group of like the eight singers. We were called the troubadours in high school and we sang all around town and I was a member of that group too. So people treated us. They just love to hear us sing.
Sanya:Wow, that is amazing. But I also read somewhere. You know you mentioned a few people that you sung background for, but you were also singing background for Diana Ross, aretha Franklin and Teddy Grass, teddy Pendergrass. What is your most memorable moment? Singing background with Diana Ross?
Shirley:Well, we did Diana Ross for three years. When Holland, dozier, holland and Motown moved to California, they would still fly us in from Detroit because Valerie had not finished high school yet, I was in college, brenda was in college, wayne State University so they still couldn't find any background singers out there in California where they moved. So they would fly us in during the summer and we would do recordings for different people. So one day McKinley Jackson, who was kind of managing us at the time, after we had finished a session, he said you know, Diana Ross is looking for some background singers and you, ladies, she's been turning everybody down. And we said well, hey, you know, we're from Detroit, so that should give us an in. And he said okay, y'all want to try. And we said yeah.
Shirley:So we, um, we thought we were saying, we thought we were going up there to audition for her music director gil, a guy by the name of gil askey, and her road manager, a guy by the name of don peak. So we went up this hill, loyal canyon, all the way up to this big, beautiful house and we started singing. We had practiced Ain't no Mountain High Enough, because those were her hot songs back in 76, I think those were the hot songs that she had out. And we Ain't no Mountain High Enough and Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand. So we were standing around the piano. Ain't no mountain high enough and reach out and touch somebody's hand. So we were standing around the piano singing those songs that we had practiced and we noticed that Gil and Don weren't saying anything. They were just kind of looking at each other with these smiles on their faces while we were singing.
Shirley:And then all of a sudden, down this long hallway comes Diana Ross, and we almost fell out and the only words out of her mouth was you guys are terrific, can you get passports? We're going to Europe? And we looked at each other. Brenda ran to the bathroom. She said she had to throw up because she couldn't believe that we were actually that. That was Diana Ross. Throw up because she couldn't believe that we were actually, that. That was Diana Ross.
Shirley:I mean, if you have to remember when we were little girls, that's who we idolized the Supremes, martha Reese and the Vandellas. And every time we would see them on the Ed Sullivan show, we would beg my mom, who was also a seamstress, to make us you know, can you make us those outfits and she put us something together similar. She wasn't that good of a singer. She did okay with putting stuff together for us. So that's how we got with her and we're the only or at least we were the first background singers for her that after the European tour she came to us and she was getting ready to do her yearly residency at Vegas and then Reno, because they were doing residencies way back in the day, diana Ross did Vegas for three weeks every year for the three years that we were with her and she came to us and she said everybody's talking about you guys and, um, so what I'm going to do?
Shirley:Uh, because she was not with Motown at the time I think that was when she had left and she was with Warner brothers. She said I'm going, I want you guys to pick a song, choose a song and I want you to learn it. That you know, and I want you to do it. You know I changed clothes five, six times in my show. I want to introduce you to the world, and so we chose If I Ever Lose this Heaven, which was on Quincy Jones' album way back in the day. And that's exactly what she did Every time, no matter where we went after that European tour, she would say all right, I'm getting ready to go change my clothes and I want you guys to check out my background. Singers, aren't they awesome, check them out. And then she said girls, ladies and gentlemen, the Jones sisters. She always called us the Jones sisters.
Sanya:Nice. Such an amazing story, but still so young. Who was protecting?
Shirley:you. My mom was with us most of the time, up until when Val turned 18, mckinley Jackson, who was managing us and who I was also dating at that time. He was the producer and arranger for Holland Jones, your Holland, so he protected us and he was out there with us.
Sanya:So and I want to talk about that mixing business with pleasure how was it like dating your manager, and was that a recipe for disaster? No, we.
Shirley:In fact he. He's responsible for us getting with Diana Ross, he's responsible for getting us on all those background sessions with Aretha and Dionne Warwick and Norman Connors and Teddy Pendergrass and Helen Reddy and Cher. I mean we did background for an array of different people in the music industry because at that time there were really only two groups, both family groups it was us and the Waters, and they're still very, very popular out there in California that people wanted. They wanted a certain sound and then, plus, we created a lot of our backgrounds and they knew that too. So that's how McKinley was solely responsible for getting us all that work and getting us with Diana Ross.
Sanya:Nice. You don't find that. Too often you find people saying don't mix the business. With pleasure I've heard so many groups fall apart because someone was dating the manager and there was some sort of preferential treatment to one singer. So I'm glad to hear that your story didn't turn out like the rest. But there was something else that you said about you know you're being a background singer and you were also in school. Why were you still in school when you were still like this big time celebrity at that point? Was it because education was very important in your household?
Shirley:Oh yeah, it was. In fact, even once we moved to California, I changed my credits to UCLA for, you know, because education was always very important. You know because my mom used to always tell us she was a reader, and I was a reader too. You know, I just read everything that you have to learn, especially your history, and you need to be educated because you need to know the business, you need to know everything, and you come. All of those things come from being educated and from reading and finding facts for yourself. That way, you're not subject to finding facts for yourself. That way, you're not subject to other people controlling your mind.
Sanya:Yeah, yeah.
Shirley:So let's talk about the money back then Was the money enough to really take care of you, your sisters and your family? Oh yeah, diana paid very well. Family oh yeah, diana paid very well. And doing background sessions was we were paid very well. And the beauty, the one thing that she did that I like, was that we traveled with her for those three years, at least seven months out of every year, but during those other five months when she was not working, she did allow us to do background singing for other people, because she knew that during those five months, yes, she paid us extremely well, but during those five months when we weren't working, she knew that we still needed to make a living. So that's what she did allow us and that's when we really started singing background for a whole lot of other people, like Aretha and everybody.
Sanya:Wow, do you still keep in touch with Diana Ross?
Shirley:I have not seen her in maybe six, seven, seven years. Yeah, okay, since both of my sisters, you know, passed, I haven't seen her.
Sanya:Got it, got it. What was it like working with Aretha Franklin.
Shirley:Well, we knew her because we had sang. My mom knew her dad and we had sang at her dad's church as little girls.
Sanya:Wow.
Shirley:Yeah, because Aretha really she and Kenny Gamble really were pushing for us to not only do the music you know, she did the Sparkle soundtrack but she wanted us in the movie and we auditioned to sing as well as be the actresses in there, but we did not get it, uh, but, and she was quite upset about that, and the only reason why we're not singing background on that is because kenny gamble was quite upset and felt that it was a light-skinned art, you know, because we were browner sisters.
Shirley:That's the only reason why we couldn't get the, because, I mean, we out sang all the girls Irene, kara and all of them and we were natural sisters. So he was upset when we didn't get the part and they wanted us to still do the background and he said no, you know, they got other to still do the background and he said no, wow, they got other things to do and we were busy during that time anyway, because You're Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else had become a massive hit. So we were out on tour with the OJs, so it all worked out okay.
Sanya:Wow, well, you know, you talked about colorism just a little bit. Wow, well, you know, you talked about colorism just a little bit. Did you feel as if you and your group weren't selected? Because, oh, absolutely, we felt that.
Shirley:Absolutely. We felt that yes.
Sanya:How was colorism really handled back then in the music industry? Was it like a normal thing where if you were a darker complexion woman that you knew that you would kind of be overlooked?
Shirley:woman that you knew that you would kind of be overlooked. Yeah, I mean, and it happened. It happened and it's still prevalent today. I mean, you know, and then you have those that you know brighten their skin, you know, like Diana. Diana was much browner, but that's one thing my mother instilled in me, because I'm the darkest of the three. She said you are beautiful just as you are your complexion, and I've just always known that. I feel that. And one thing when different things happen because of colorism, I'm like, well, they can't out-sing me. So that's one thing for sure.
Sanya:Well, right now. Yeah, and then you mentioned music legend Kenny Gamble. Now he was. He signed you to Philadelphia international records. Talk about that, the day that you signed your first major record contract.
Shirley:Well, you know it was. It was a blessing because we were at the Schubert Theater with Diana and she had told us she said Gamblin' Huff's going to be in the audience tonight, lady. So you know, put an extra little thing on your song when I call you guys down. And of course we did, because at that time Philly International was the hottest label. They were hotter than Motown. It was the OJs and Billy Paul and the Stylistics and Teddy Pendergrass and Harold Melvin's Blue Notes and Gene Karn and Phyllis Hyman and Patti LaBelle. And we were like, when they came back to our dressing room after her show and they asked us, they said are you, ladies, signed with anybody? You guys are terrific. And we're like no. And they said, well, would you like to be a part of Philly International? Because I believe six months earlier they had just parted ways with the three degrees. So we were like, absolutely so.
Shirley:We went back home to Cal we were all living in California at the time and our attorneys got with their attorneys and we signed our first contract and within three months we were flown there and they always put us up in apartments. They call them Airbnbs now, but they would put us up in these apartments because we were there from the beginning of the album until back in the day. There was a whole concept for each album cover and how every so we were there from the beginning of that to the very end, and that usually took about three months. So that's what we did, and we, the first day when we pulled into 309 South Broad Street and across the street was this restaurant called the Fantasy, and so Gamble came, they gave us our schedule, because it was like school. Every day we would get with this producer, dexter Wanzel, then McFadden and Whitehead, and we would spend an hour or two every day with the different producers and they were presenting songs and it was up, you know, and then we would all decide which songs we were actually going to record and we would record the ones that we thought were best, and then Kenny and Leon would suggest songs too.
Shirley:But I remember that first day after they gave us our schedule for the week, gamble said well, ladies, go across the street and I'm going to treat you to dinner at the Fantasy. And we went across the street and I mean, who was there? I mean they all were there to welcome us Eddie LaVert, the OJs, teddy, let's see Billy, paul, gene Karn. They were all there at the at the Fantasy Restaurant and we were like kids in a candy store. We could not believe that we were now with a label of with such popular, incredible singing artists and we became family after that. But I mean, eddie and Walter to this day are like brothers because they were the first ones to take us out on the road. So it was just a beautiful experience being around so many talented musicians and artists, wow.
Sanya:I would love to have been a fly on the wall around this, but you mentioned earlier on, you know, singing background and receiving some form of notoriety or fame. But then, now you're signed to this big record label and you and your sisters released your first single You're Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else. What did this fame now feel like?
Shirley:Man, we could not believe it. The first time we heard it on the radio we had gone back to LA and KJLH played it. We learned about the charts and we were watching it go up the charts but we hadn't heard it yet because it had not yet hit California. And I remember driving on the freeway and they KJLH, which is Stevie Wonder Station. They said the guy said here's a new. The guy said here's a new up-and-coming jam by a new group that used to be Diana Ross's background singers, the Jones Girls.
Shirley:And then I heard it and I was like oh my God, I couldn't wait to get home and to tell Brenda and Valerie that I had heard it. And you know we didn't have cell phones back then, so I just had to speed on the freeway to get back to the apartment because we were, all you know, in the same apartment building. And I told him. I said I heard the record today. And then it got to the point where we would turn the radio on every day to make sure we heard it and have our friends call in to, you know, request it. So it was a great experience.
Sanya:That sounds like an amazing experience. How many albums did you and your sisters make with Philly International? Four, we did four with them. Four, and during that time that you were on that record label, were you happy?
Shirley:Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean because Kenny and Leon, they were absolutely great. I mean we came out the box with you Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else and then also on that album was who Can I Run To? Which was the B-side? That was the B-side of you Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else. Can we pause?
Sanya:Let's pause for a second, because people need to understand that, Because people think that Escape was the first group to think who can I run to? And no, no, no, no, no, it was the Jones girls. No, the Jones sisters. Right.
Shirley:And I tell people every time in my show, because who Can I Run To happens to be my favorite song bar none, you know. So I tell people in my show and back in, well, when, and I tell Escape, I've met the girls and they have said we hope we did it justice, and I said, oh, you guys did a great job. I said, and then, what you did, you brought a whole bunch of new fans back to us. I always came out in seven, nineteen, seventy, nine, because it was the B side of you're going to make me love somebody else, because it was the B-side of you're going to make me love somebody else. So consequently, with it being a B-side, it did not get as much airplay until Escape did it.
Shirley:And then back in 1995, when they put it out, the disc jockeys, you know, they were like, ah, they would play Escape's version and they would say, okay, for you young people, now this is 1995, telling the young people then this is not a new song, this song was done 16 years ago by the Jones Girls and they would play our version. And then, you know, people would call in and say which version they like. So over the years people have known. And then, when Escape did their unsung, they showed us and gave us credit. And then we did our unsung. And so a lot of people know, most people know now that we did it first.
Shirley:And those that don't't know, if they show up to one of my shows, they definitely know before they leave, because I always tell them that I said and this happens to be my favorite jones girl song- yeah, but who can I run to escape?
Sanya:was wasn't the only group that sampled. I read that who can I run to? Was sampled 49 times. Is that true?
Shirley:It has been that night all of our songs, which to me it's the highest form of appreciation and flattery. It really is, because that just means that we had something out there that other people wanted to put in some form in their music.
Sanya:Like Nights Over Egypt, has been sampled by Faith, by Faith. Yes, I didn't know that. Yeah, I remember like when Faith's song starts, I was like I know that melody that beat from somewhere, yeah, and then, as I was doing my research, I said, oh, that's where I heard it, once again cleaning.
Shirley:And then, as I was doing my research, I said, oh, that's where I heard it Once again cleaning up on Saturday morning. Yeah, that's it. And Jay-Z did you Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else? They say that was one of his biggest records. Yes, so you know, we've had our stuff sampled and I'm just glad now that, through all the different laws and things, that when our music is played you know the original artists are finally getting compensated for it. Like, say, Knights of Egypt was just in the Book of Clarence, so with you know the movie, the Book of Clarence, which is Jay-Z's movie. So now, with the new laws that are in place, we get paid for them using our intellectual property our voices.
Sanya:So question. So artists no longer have to contact you for permission to sample.
Shirley:Well, they contact the radio. I mean the label, the record label and whoever owns the master, that's who they contact. But then AFTRA, the American Federation, the Union of Television and Radio Artists, and SAG Screen Actors Guild, they contact us and then let us know that we do this amount of money for our voices being used.
Sanya:Yes, got it Now. You briefly mentioned the word owning your masters. Do you own any of your songs owning your masters? Do you own any of your songs?
Shirley:I'm in the process now of getting all of the masters and it's been a two year process and it should be completed. It was, they said, the end of set by the end of September, so I'm hoping to get that phone call next week.
Sanya:Yes, Can you just briefly explain what is the importance of an artist owning their masters?
Shirley:Because then anytime anybody uses it they have to come through you and then you get paid for. Then you really get paid money for the use of your recording.
Sanya:And there was another question I meant to ask you a few moments ago, because we briefly talked about you and your sister signing to Philadelphia International. Did you ever think, because you were from Detroit, that Motown was going to sign you first?
Shirley:No, they were interested when we were little girls. They were interested when we were little girls. But then they gave Holland, joeser Holland, their label and we signed to music, yeah. And then when we were singing with Diana, barry Gordy was interested. But Diana was on the outs with Motown and she says I don't want you guys going to Motown because they're not going to do anything with you. So that's why she had us learn a song and she wanted to introduce us to other record labels, which it was a lot of them back then. Now, now it's not so much, you know, because they're not signing. Everybody now has kind of like their own label because it's more, it's completely different than it was 40, 45 years ago well, I'm very pleased to hear that diana ross was so supportive.
Sanya:Oh, yeah, yes, yeah, and strengthening your career and opening up rooms that you may not have been invited into. But I want to talk about mistakes or lessons learned, because you mentioned that you had four albums with Philadelphia International, but then you decided to leave why?
Shirley:um well, our contract was up and we weren't really happy with with the success of the, the very last, the third album that we did with them. Especially with that album having Nights Over Egypt on it, we felt that it should have gotten much more airplay than it did.
Shirley:And so we decided, after that third album we had an offer from RCA and we wanted to try something different, and we weren't even sure that Gambling them were going to resign us anyway. So we we took the offer and went over there with Fonzie Thornton, who's Luther's best friend and his co-partner, and Robert Wright and they recorded and the album was a really good album, but at that same time, an album that we had in the can that Kenny Burke had did a lot of the production on Gamble and them released that. So, and that was the fourth album, and that album actually did better than the On Target album.
Sanya:So this is around like the 80s, correct?
Shirley:Yes, this was around 80, 84, 85.
Sanya:Yes, so now that you and your sisters are on RCA and the music isn't doing too well, RCA decided to drop the group music isn't doing too well.
Shirley:Rca decided to drop the group.
Sanya:Yeah, but then the group as a whole. We were having a lot of internal problems too.
Shirley:What were they? Yes, internally, internally a lot of. That's when a lot of of infighting us and a lot of the alcoholism problem that eventually Valerie passed from and then, not too too long ago, brenda too, those problems were. They started showing up. Brenda decided to get married. I decided to leave the group because I just had had enough at one point of babysitting and trying to perform too. Valerie wanted to experience college. Because she was the only one that never did so. She went back to Detroit with my mom and Brenda got married and I continued to sing. I was singing background with other people, like Howard Hewitt, we were doing background sessions, lynn Davis doing stuff for Shante Moore, a lot of stuff for George Duke. So I was doing a background stuff, singing. And then one day Kenny had called me and, you know, he asked me. He said well, you know, have you ever thought about doing a solo project? And that's when I went back to Philadelphia. I'm like, absolutely I would love to. So that's how I became, you know, became a soloist, got it.
Sanya:But let's just backpedal a little bit and just talk about the pitfalls of the industry. Do you think that your sister engaged in alcohol because of the stress of the music industry, or do you think that she just has some own personal issues?
Shirley:Well, it's a combination of alcoholism ran in our family Okay, my, you know, my mom's baby sister was and it seemed like it was the babies in every generation in my family. So it ran in our family and then too, yeah, back in the day, thank God, you know, back in the day it was a lot of drugs and alcohol. We just did the alcohol part of it, not the drug part, but I mean, they were both just as bad, because an alcoholic addiction is just as bad as a drug addiction.
Sanya:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. So you started off as a background singer. Then eventually you go to Philadelphia International, then you go to RCA, the group gets dropped and then you return to background singing. Did you feel as if that was a step backward or like you were a failure for doing that?
Shirley:No, not at all, because I was singing and that's all I've ever wanted to do was sing. I just, you know, I just love singing. So I was singing. And then the reason why a lot of those people had, you know, would contact me, because they were trying to get that, you know, similar sound. And even Brendan, valerie and I, even though we had stopped singing as the Jones girls people, some people, we would still get together and do background for certain people that will call us, like Norman Connors, you know people of that sort.
Sanya:But I still wanted to, always wanted, to be out front well out front you did an amazing job because that hit song. Do you get enough?
Shirley:yes, yeah oh, that was amazing. Uh, and it's funny because that song was actually written for the oj's, the late great bunny seagull I teased.
Shirley:I thank eddie and walter every time I see them or perform was actually written for the OJs. What the late great Bunny Segal. I teased. I thanked Eddie and Walter every time I see them or perform for turning that song down.
Shirley:I just happened to be walking down the hall at Philly International because Gamble had brought me in and we were just getting ready to start listening and picking songs for the album and I happened to hear Bunny in there with this song and I said, oh, I love this, I love this song. He said, well, I'm glad you do, because the OJs just turned it down. And I said, well, I want to do it. And he said you. He said it was written for me and I said I want to do that song. I said do you get enough love? I said love is universal. So he said well, go, if Gamble says yes, then you can do it.
Shirley:So I went to Kenny and I asked him. I said, kenny, I really want to do this song that the OJs just turned down, and he said you really want to do that song? I said, kenny, I really want to do this song that the OJs just turned down, and he said you really want to do that song? I said yeah. He said all right, you and Bunny go for it. I'll give you a nephew now. He didn't pay me. That's my nephew.
Sanya:PJ, that's Valerie's son. Yeah, nice, nice PJ, that's Valerie's son. Yeah, nice, nice, nice. But you know, I always listen to that song on YouTube as I watch you perform it on Soul Train. Talk about the day you performed. Do you Get Enough Love on Soul Train? Oh, man.
Shirley:We had done Soul Train as the Jones Girls, we did Children of the Night and Dance Turn to Romance some years earlier. But to be doing Soul Train when Do you Get Enough Love? Was the number one record in the country. It was such a great experience A little kind of bittersweet, because I was so used to performing with my sisters, so it was a little bittersweet but it worked out. It worked out beautifully and it was the first number one record because all of our songs had only gone to I think you Gonna Make Me Love. Somebody Else had gone to like number three or number two, because back in those days you know Michael Jackson, I think, was holding the number one spot. You know Michael Jackson, I think, was holding the number one spot. But to have my song, me, go to number one was a beautiful thing. And then it stayed there for a couple of weeks.
Sanya:So that was really, really nice. I'm just getting full of all of your stories. Do you prefer being?
Shirley:in a group or solo, actually I don't know. I mean because it was my sisters. I loved the group because I loved our harmonizing together, but I like being a soloist too. Now I'm a soloist keeping the Jones Girls legacy alive. So I have some girls that have been with me for about 13 years that I trained, that are my background singers. Everybody talks about my background singers because they are awesome and they keep that harmony going so that I can do my lead thing and keep people going down memory lane with all of our hits. You know from you Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else to I Just Love the man to Dance. Turn the Romance to Nights Over Egypt, to who Can I Run To? And all of that's in my show. I tell people I said you can go down memory lane with the sounds and the songs of the Jones Girls.
Sanya:Can you do me a favor? It'll be an early birthday gift, my birthday isn't until July, but I want my gift now. All right, it'll be an early birthday gift, my birthday isn't until July, but I want my gift now. Can you sing just one line of do you get enough, please Do you?
Shirley:get enough, get enough, get enough, get enough.
Sanya:Love I want to know baby, do you, do you? Yes? An early birthday gift? Oh my gosh, we can go home now. You just made my night. The next thing that I want to talk about because so many people are navigating loss and we've mentioned your sisters a number of times Like we can't talk about the Jones girls without talking about your two sisters, right Now that they've transitioned. What has death taught you?
Shirley:Death has really taught me to be more appreciative of life because you especially now it is so many people are leaving here and I miss my sisters, but it's so hard to explain to people every single show since they have passed. I feel them with me, I feel their energy, I feel their spirits and I have not had one bad show since they passed and I always get with them and ask them to be there for me and them and my mom. It's like I see them holding each other and watching me and I feel that on stage and that's why I say I have to keep going with keeping this legacy alive, because I'm not doing it. I'm doing it for them as much as for myself.
Sanya:Yes, and you've successfully done that, because in 2023, you released a reflection album honoring your sisters. What was that process like? Was it therapeutic for you or was it triggering?
Shirley:It was both, but it was more therapeutic. And in fact, the title track, pj, who was just in here. He and I wrote that he's an excellent producer. He and Cam they're writing and doing they've done several of our songs hip hop style, which has really brought us a whole new generation of friends and fans too. So it was very therapeutic. It was something I had been wanting to do and I picked and chose every single song because it had something to do with some point in the life with my sisters.
Sanya:Got it. I'm loving to hear the stories of how everything is paying it forward and the pipeline to access your mom, you and your sisters Diana Ross, escape, now your nephew. I love to see people pay it forward. I, I work in education and um, whenever I'm doing something for students and they're just like well, miss hudson, how can I repay you? And I'm like you can repay me by paying it forward. Yes, because, especially a marginalized community, sometimes the doorway is very, very narrow. Maybe one person can get in and I do think that it's a responsibility for us to reach back and pull someone else up with us. So I'm glad to hear that your legacy has been continued. It's not stopping.
Shirley:No, with my son and my son and my nephew. They're continuing it on, but they both got Val val, son and my son. They both are 35. They're four months apart they're more like brothers than anything.
Sanya:Yes, nice, nice, nice, and they're already in the music industry and they're supporting you oh yes absolutely nice, nice. So who do you listen to today's music? Who are you listening to?
Shirley:Oh, my goodness, Lettucey, I love her, I love Lettucey.
Sanya:Yes, but with Lettucey I don't think that she is getting the spotlight that she deserves.
Shirley:She is now because you know she's out there. She's doing great. I listen to Kim. I like this girl. What's her name? Jones. Her last name is Jones.
Sanya:Coco.
Shirley:Jones, coco Jones, I really like her. I listen to a lot of jazz too. I like some of the, some of the, the young, the young, you know, the young people. But uh, I really listen a lot to a lot of european music artists too, because I go over to europe a lot, you know yeah, I heard that american artists are really, really appreciated and valued Absolutely. I'm headed over there in November, and then again in May, and then again in June of next year.
Sanya:Yeah, so I'm always over in Europe. You know Shirley Jones is no longer working and she is just someone from the past to know that you still have a very vibrant and active career.
Shirley:Oh yeah, and I just did so the Soul Train Cruise, capital City Jazz and I'm work. Well, I'll be on quite a few tours next year. So I work quite a bit in the States and will'll be working a lot more next year on a couple of tours I can't talk about it yet because the contracts haven't been signed but we're going to be all over the States next year.
Sanya:I love it. I love it. So, now that we briefly talked about this new era of music and the current artists that you're listening to, I just want to ask you a question related to current events this whole Sean P Diddy fiasco. What are your thoughts about that?
Shirley:Well, I knew nothing about his parties. I had never heard of him. The kids, my kids and PJ and my son they've been filling me in on all this, but I do know that, coming out of an abusive marriage to see him I saw that video where he was kicking that woman like that I lost all respect for him because I was in an abusive marriage and men are automatically stronger than women and for you to do that to a woman, you have no respect for me. I never knew that much about him. He was nobody that I listened to or anything, because that's a whole different generation.
Shirley:But it just goes to show you that if you're not using your money and fame to uplift other people and you're using it to and you're using it to, as you say, have freak-offs and parties and not really doing anything to, as you were saying, pay it forward, then you kind of deserve everything that happens to you.
Shirley:That's you know, and it's sad to say, but he created this and karma is something else. Cause when you mistreat and you do the kinds of things that he's accused of, if, if he's found guilty of that and it looks like he, looks like they have a lot on there then deserves what's happening because he planted those seeds. That's why you have to be very careful how you treat people, how you handle absolutely everything, because if it's not of a mind of helping somebody or uplifting somebody else, but you're like these women that they say they were trafficking, you know that those kinds of things you deserve absolutely everything that comes your way because you know you don't do anything to people that can't help themselves. You, you, you. I just believe in helping others, not hurting anybody or using people or taking advantage of people or be harming people in any kind of way.
Sanya:Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad that you shared your opinion about that and you were very transparent and honest. I want you to just share a teachable moment or a lesson, because you are a survivor of DV. How did you get out of that situation?
Shirley:It took me a while because I had had my son and he, you know, and he was like mom, please stay in this marriage, you know. Stay, because he wanted to, he loved his dad, he loved me. But I say to anybody, if it happens once, don't. And now I tell these women, you know, hey, I was there. I should have left. I ended up. After 23 years of marriage. I should have left. I ended up. After 23 years of marriage. I finally had got to the point where I felt strong enough to leave, to get out, and I did stay because of my son, you know, until he graduated. That's what he wanted, you know, and I I did take that abuse, but I wouldn't recommend or tell any other woman to do that, because you're only harming yourself when you do that, because if it happens one time, it's not going to change, it's going to continue to happen as long as you keep letting them get away with that.
Shirley:So that's one thing I will. I tell women that and I've given talks about that Don't, don't, don't fall for the okey-doke. I did and I'm telling you from experience please don't fall for it, because it's not going to change.
Sanya:Well, thank you for sharing your opinion and your story. What advice do you have for emerging artists?
Shirley:Learn the business so you can make sure that you can, after all the fame and everything that you're still locked in, can, after all the fame and everything that you still locked in.
Shirley:Like you know, a lot of my livelihood is, of course, singing still now, but I still get royalties and things that have been set up from us knowing and learning about the business of music. Learn about the business and it's a completely different business today than it was 40, 45 years ago. So you know a lot of it is streaming and I'm involved in a lot of the different things that are happening in Congress for us old school artists to even get more of our deserved monies and royalties from radio from back in the day, so that you know all that's in Congress now, because of certain people like Ray Parker Jr, who's a friend of mine and you know just, and SAG-AFTRA, realizing that a lot of us we still aren't getting nowhere near what we really should be getting. But there's a law in Congress now that hopefully should be. It's been there for about seven or eight years. The Senate has passed it. We're just waiting on the House now where we're going to be getting money back from the 70, from 1970 up through 1986, I believe From radio.
Sanya:Deserve every single penny. I know that you're going to get it. Are you on social media?
Shirley:Yes, shirley Jones Girl. Shirley Jones of the Jones Girls Is Facebook and Instagram and threads and X is Jones Shirley without the Y. And then my website is ShirleyJonesGirl no S dot com.
Sanya:Well, look at you on social media. Yes, all right. So I'm going to follow you on social media and I'm asking you to follow that Absolutely, please do.
Shirley:Okay, well, ms Jones follow that?
Sanya:Yes, absolutely, please do. Okay. Well, ms Jones, thank you so much for such a robust conversation you made this little girl I'm actually five years old inside today oh, so much for making me happy. I even told my father I'm like dad, guess who I'm having a conversation with today? Well, he was truly, truly happy for me as well. So thank you.
Shirley:And thank you and give your father my love and I'm glad you were cleaning back in the day. So many women tell me their parents made them clean to our music. Yes, yes and hey, that's good. I know it was a lot of clean houses back then. Yes, clean houses back.
Sanya:Yes, and now I'm singing your music to my daughter so that she can know about the Jones girls.
Shirley:Oh well, that is so wonderful. Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Sanya:This is very, very important. Miss Jones, you've been amazing. Take care, and I'm going to be following you and I'll see you on social media.
Shirley:Alrighty, take care. God bless, take care.
Sanya:God bless, take care, god bless, omg. So there you have it, miss Jones of the Jones girls. That was such an amazing conversation. It really was the pipeline to access. It didn't just start with her walking into a room no, no, no, no, no. It started off Her mother. Her walking into a room? No, no, no, no, no. It started off.
Sanya:Her mother was a famous gospel singer. She saw talent in her daughters and said you know what? Y'all going to come over here and think background for me. We're going to harmonize, we're going to practice. You think you're going outside. You ain't going outside, you're going gonna sit right in front of this piano and we're going to practice. Okay, so then they grow up their singing. Background for diana ross, teddy penegrins, aretha franklin so glad that she recanted some stories about diana ross. We don't really know too much about her personality. So to learn that Diana Ross was instrumental and so supportive and these girls were 12 years old, 12 years old with voices like grown women. Okay, they get signed to a major record label. That doesn't work out. Eventually, that doesn't work out. Eventually, shirley Jones goes solo Hit song. They've been on Soul Train, I don't know how many. Let me tell you something. Back in the day, you knew an artist was successful when you turned on Soul Train and they were the featured performer. Soul Train Not once, but I think she said about three times. She and her sisters were on Soul Train, navigating, lost. She lost both of her sisters and her mom Pay it Forward. She decided to remember them by continuing their legacy by creating a reflection album, by creating a reflection album. Now her nephew and her son are also in the music industry helping Ms Jones write music.
Sanya:The pipeline to access. So this is what I want to leave you all with. You know, I forgot to put this up there. Let's do this real quick. My bad, I told you I've been going for a man. Now I'm back with the jumper.
Sanya:Okay, one thing I want to leave you with is if you get into a room, if you get into a room, don't get comfortable like mama. I done made it. No, no, no, no, no. It is your responsibility to turn back and pull someone else into the room with you, someone who looks like you, someone who looks like us, someone who black, like this and not like that. You see this, what I don't know, but I digress, I digress. The pipeline to access is so, so important, especially in marginalized communities. I cannot repeat this enough. So make sure that you stay continued. Make sure you stay continued. Make sure you continue tuning in to Sonya on air, where I not only talk to celebrities. It's not about salaciousness, it's about their pivotal moments and milestones and how they've created or benefited from pipelines to access. Do me a favor make sure you subscribe and I'll be back with more. Sanya on Air Smooches dolls.