Fat Tony's Podcast
Captivating conversations with amazing experts. Inspired by the works of Nassim Taleb, amongst others. Hosted by Sebastian David Lees.
Fat Tony's Podcast
Gummo - Hacking, The Fight for Privacy, and Quantum Computing
The digital world we inhabit grows more complex by the day, with threats evolving at breakneck speed. In this profound conversation, I'm joined by the legendary hacker known as Gummo - a figure whose journey from desperate teenager to Bitcoin billionaire to digital guardian defies easy categorization.
Gummo's story begins with heartbreak. Left alone at 13 after their mother's death, they turned to technology not as a rebellious act but as a means of survival. "I started learning how to manipulate technology for financial gain... it wasn't for fun, it was to take care of myself," they explain. This origin story sets them apart from hackers driven by curiosity or mischief— their skills were forged in the crucible of necessity.
What follows is a masterclass in modern digital security concerns. Gummo provides chilling insights into state-sponsored hacking programs that operate with governmental immunity, the wholesale erosion of privacy in exchange for convenience, and the alarming rise of AI-powered scams that can now replicate voices and faces with frightening accuracy.
Despite amassing a fortune in Bitcoin during its infancy (mining over 180,000 coins), Gummo continues fighting cybercrime from hotel rooms rather than beaches. When I ask why they persist despite having the means to disappear completely, their answer is disarmingly beautiful: "Seeing families together, playing with their children, to see two people in love holding hands and kissing—there's so much that goes into preventing that from not happening." Their passion for protecting ordinary people from digital predators transcends wealth.
The conversation culminates with Gummo's current fascination: quantum computing. Beyond its technical applications, their interest springs from a deeply personal place—the possibility of time travel to see their mother once more. This poignant revelation perfectly encapsulates the person: technically brilliant yet profoundly human, shaped by loss yet dedicated to protecting others from harm.
Whether you're a technology professional or simply someone navigating our increasingly digital world, this conversation offers rare wisdom from someone who's seen both the darkest corners and brightest possibilities of our connected future. Subscribe now and join us for more thought-provoking discussions with extraordinary individuals who challenge our understanding of the world.
Fat Tony's is more than a podcast - it's a community. Join our community at FatTonys.net.
Welcome everyone to another edition of the Fact-Only's podcast. Our guest today is an infamous hacker who goes by the handle of Gumout. Throughout their career, they've hacked satellite encryption, worked for and against governments, built a supercomputer to mine over 180,000 Bitcoin back before most people had ever even heard of Bitcoin, and most recently, have turned their attention to the possibilities and potential of quantum computing. Since their interview on the YouTube channel Softwhite Underbelly went viral a few years back, gummo has become part internet legend and part urban folk hero. Having gotten to know Gummo a little bit over the last few years, I'd just like to set the record straight and say that they're one of the most wonderfully kind-hearted and genuine people you could ever hope to meet. So with that, gummo, welcome to Fat Tony's. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here.
Gummo:Thank you for having me. Thank you, it's wonderful to be doing an interview after so many years of not choosing to do one. So thank you for having me after so many years of not choosing to do one, so thank you for having me.
Sebastian:Well, I hope it's a good one for you. I think I always say that start at the start, and I think an obvious first question is for those listeners not familiar with yourselves tell us a little bit about you, how you got into hacking and your journey into that world.
Gummo:Sure. So I started hacking in the mid-80s, around 1986. You know it. Just, it was becoming a hacker wasn't something that I actually set out to do.
Gummo:I, as a child growing up, I actually chose to enter into the clergy, but, of course, you know, my mother passed away and I, I really just lost my faith. And then I was, you know, 13 years old. I'm trying to figure out how to take care of myself because I had no one, and so I turned to the thing that I I knew the best was, you know, was my computer, and I started learning how to. I started learning how to manipulate technology for financial gain, and it wasn't for fun, it was to take care of myself. And so I would learn how to spoof credit cards using a Bell Howell Language Master from the late 70s.
Gummo:I would use mail drops. I would use social security. I would, I would use a social security number generators for instant credit. I would also use fake documentation so I could obtain an apartment, so I could live somewhere, and then it just, it just kind of went from there. You know the, the things that I learned were things that sustained me, that gave me somewhat of a normal life, like, you know most kids are. You know, at that age most kids are, the biggest problem they're worried about is who their next girlfriend or what you know the pimples are on their face. You know I was more concerned with, you know, surviving and having a place to sleep and something to eat every night. And how do I get from point A to point B? Well, having a driver's license or a car.
Sebastian:So becoming a hacker was born out of necessity, sheer necessity to stay alive as a kid, those early experiences you mentioned becoming a hacker out of necessity I know a lot of hackers don't go through that journey. They go through it out of intellectual curiosity or teenage rebellion or things like that. Those early experiences has that shaped your perception, going forward, about privacy and personal security today?
Gummo:It has not shaped my perception of privacy and individual freedoms. I believe that I've actually bore witness to the erosion of loss of privacy and individual privacy and security through governments and tactics that governments use to force masses into types of technology to be self-tracking such a general species, not a society or government or country. I believe that all humans have surrendered their expectation of privacy for convenience with a mobile device. Unfortunate, because the genie's out of the bottle and everybody wants to know where they're at. Their GPS is on, their apps are tracking them, criminals are accessing their mobile devices to steal their digital lives and the importance of that specific entity is never realized until we go without it. Whether it's due to theft, damage, so it's it's. It's a, it's a thing.
Sebastian:Now, unfortunately, it's interesting, isn't it, how easily people are willing to trade privacy for convenience when it comes to technology, and I started falling down this rabbit hole a few years ago and I saw a lecture by a guy named daniel suarez, who was a former it guy. Now he's a sci-fi author, but he was talking not about sci-fi. He was talking about privacy in the real world and how governments encroach on your privacy in what look like very non-nefarious ways, and the example he gave was some tiny law in the US that was passed 10, 15 years ago I can't remember exactly when, but it was related to air pressure monitors in cars, in tires in cars, and he said like okay, this is a safety bill. We're going to have these little Bluetooth tire pressure sensors. Any new car has to have one and that will alert you on your dashboard if you've got a flat tire or a low tire.
Sebastian:What they didn't tell you is that obviously you'll know this, of course, but every Bluetooth device has its own unique identifier. So what the US government has since done is that almost every major junction of every major junction of every major city put out these bluetooth snippers who will ping, get your, whatever. The unique digit is 16, 32, 64 digits, whatever it is back, and then if they know the digit of your tire pressure monitor, they can essentially track you wherever you go across the country. And I remember watching that and it made me severely paranoid for about several weeks afterwards. And that's just one vector. Right before we even get into people today, you know, carrying a supercomputer around in their pocket that's got gps tracking I think the latest version of the iphone that came out or the latest software update and now track you even if you're, like, got your phone powered off yes and seb.
Gummo:There's a reason why manufacturers begin making their batteries unaccessible to remove them because even though your device is off, it's still on, you're still being tracked. Your screen just goes dark. Your device isn't on, because if it was truly off, then why does it turn back on when your alarm goes off? Even though you turn your phone off, it turns back on to turn your alarm on. So your phone is never off.
Gummo:And this is the consequence of people the fear of missing out. Right, fomo, right when, say you know? And it's produced by the great Apple, right, the great big company that produces slick, nice devices which are always four to five generations behind, devices which are always four to five generations behind. And then all of these companies and these CEOs and these presenters, they get on stage and they tout these amazing capabilities and technologies that are now part of something big. You know there's never that discussion in these big presentations about privacy. You see all of these features, right? Look at all these features and look what this. You know the A99 can do this now and so forth, and it's simply misleading to people's own personal sovereignty and expectation of privacy.
Sebastian:I've got to ask a serious question off the back of this. Then you know in the news when you hear about major hacks, it's state actors hacking other governments, or it's hacking collectives hacking major corporations and doing these data dumps, or it's celebrities being targeted, or high profile figures, how concerned or how worried so the average person you know, average joe, 95 job how concerned should they be about privacy and personal security in in this current era of technology?
Gummo:everyone should have some level of concern when it comes to their own personal level of privacy and security. Unfortunately, in our modern life, we must access the Internet and enter our information into some database somewhere, for some specific reason. For some specific reason, whether or not you're paying your water bill or light bill, or you're paying the rent on your flat each month, or whatever, you're surrendering little bits of information that ultimately, over time, becomes metadata. And then these companies right, these companies that collect this type of information, these little bits of information, these companies sell your information to clearinghouses, and then these clearinghouses begin gathering more metadata and more structure on who you are associated with, your IP address or device MAC address. All you need to do is just continue browsing of interest, the things that you find compelling, and those are dead giveaways. It's, you know, everyone does online baking, everyone does. Everybody goes online for something. It's almost inescapable now to download the app, to install on your phone so you can access our service, only right.
Gummo:And these privacies are continuing to erode as each new feature is built in by these organizations or these corporations, these tech conglomerates that are baking this stuff, stuff in these new features. So you, you kind of just forget, right? You just kind of forget about. Well, you know where's this all going, because, when it's all said and done, it's it's five to 10 years later and at that point your, your data has been mined, sold, resold, brokered and, of course, obtained illegally by threat actors.
Gummo:Yeah and on hackers, right, specifically speaking of state-sponsored hackers, they are the worst types of hackers to deal with. They are the most aggressive and difficult hackers to catch, because they have the blessing of their specific government and they hide behind their government's veils and firewalls. So those you know, in a perfect world, the type of hacker that would scare me as a consumer wouldn't be a black hat, right, or a white hat or red hat, or there's so many colors right now associated with being a hacker. But the type of hacker that truly keeps me up at night are the state-sponsored hackers that have, you know, a specific type of qualified immunity for their actions and what their intentions are.
Sebastian:Yeah, they're being endorsed, they're being bankrolled. What's the North Korean one called Unit 57 or Unit 20? There's a two-digit number that I forget and these are people who are delivering a return. From my understanding my limited understanding a lot of what they do is delivering a return on investment for their governments. Essentially, they are a revenue generating function and also another arm of it is, you know, espionage, intelligence gathering and things like that yeah, especially states, but you know states, states like north korea.
Gummo:North korea relies almost not 80 90% on international hacking, and so they train hundreds and hundreds of state-sponsored hackers to steal cryptocurrencies, to steal your identity and, most recently, the past 12 to 24 months, these particular hackers in North Korea. They're obtaining legitimate, paying jobs using artificial intelligence manipulation, and so it's not specifically North Korea, it's many others. But these are the new tactics of the new era, and so as technologies continue to advance, so do criminals in the way their tactics evolve.
Sebastian:Yeah, I mean, this is a new Cold War, right, this is the new arms race. It's gone into cyberspace and you can tell my age there that I'm using the term cyberspace. Yeah, you're completely right. I haven't told you this. I don't think I've told anyone this, but a couple of months ago I was subject subject wasn't successful, but subject to a very sophisticated attack and it was a vc firm and they replicated the whole website. They created half a dozen social media accounts for various people. They spent months building relationship with me and then pivoted to wanting me to be on a podcast that we're launching about innovation and then, at the last minute, fed in this oh, there's a new video platform that we've invested in one of our startups doing. Can you download it to do recall, because we want to support them? And, of course, while you're downloading, luckily I know a little about, obviously, like there's absolutely no way I'm doing that, but it almost. I consider myself not at your level anyway, but in terms of an informed consumer, probably you know at the top end of what you would expect an informed consumer to be, and that almost got me and you know what they were.
Sebastian:After I had a look at the file afterwards. Obviously, I wanted to dissect it and see what was in it, and it was. You know, we're looking for my bitcoin wallet, essentially as if I'd actually have that on my main pc. It was just it. What bowled me over wasn't the technical sophistication, it was the amount of effort that went into it in terms of the social engineering aspect of it. So again, for listeners who aren't too okay, social engineering is correct me if I'm wrong here the the part of hacking that isn't necessarily focused on the technical aspect, but it's engineering the human psychology side of it. How do you get people to concede information? Is that correct?
Gummo:That is correct and it's very prevalent and social engineering is the most devastating form of cybercrime out there devastating form of cybercrime out there because it it social engineering takes advantage of the human element within technology and the human element is always and always will be the weakest link, because most humans don't have that specific amount of training to identify what you almost got hit with. And it and those types of sophisticated attacks continue to increase. They're continuing to increase where you know that you will get it, where, where nation states and people that have a specific vested interest in your particular financial situation, they will befriend you, they will become romantically involved with you, they'll become, they will, they will try to get next to you, they will constantly to you, they want to be your friend, they're your friend and they will stop at nothing to get close to States. Unfortunately, that parlay the tactic of social engineering on so many new levels.
Gummo:It's unbelievable and I've spoken about that a little bit in the past, but those are some of the tactics that are used and they're quite frightening because you never know who you're dealing with. Right, you don't know and it's always been a ticket of caution in my life of who is this person. Why are they emailing me? Why do you want to meet me and so forth, and I have foregone hundreds of meetings and interactions with people just on that suspicion alone, and continues it well, this this is.
Sebastian:This is a good segue actually, because I was thinking about the other day. You know, you, you well known within hacking circles, but outside of hacking circles until the soft white underbelly video about I think it was about five years ago now. Um, you're relatively unknown outside of those circles and that went mega viral. I think the last time I checked it had some like five and a half million views. I'm guessing at the time you didn't expect that and as a result of that, did you feel more concerned about your privacy and security, kind of divulging some of the things you did during that interview?
Gummo:Yeah, there were so many things and there are still so many things that I am unable to discuss. Yeah, I remember the Soft White Underbelly video, both of them, and my thought was, maybe I would get you know. It was just, it wasn't to get views, it wasn't for anything else, it was, it was to say goodbye to, to that person, to who, who I used to be Right, because, yeah, I've, I've changed in the past five years in so many ways and so it was for me. It was a way to me to say, hey, this is who I was, this is what I did. Goodbye, right. And I thought, you know, I thought maybe, you know, I really thought you know, if, if maybe a few thousand people hear my story, you know it would, they would understand, they would understand. But it went viral, right, and it really changed my life. So many people came out of the woodwork. I mean, it really altered my life's trajectory.
Gummo:While I've been able to maintain changing into a different person than who I used to be, it came with so many consequences. I had hundreds of people and continue, right, it doesn't stop. Hundreds of people, thousands of emails. Hey, right, it doesn't stop, you know, hundreds of people, thousands of emails. You know, hey, right, you need to write a book, we'll write a book. You need to hire a ghostwriter. Come invest in our company. Can I have some Bitcoin? Can? Can you come and hack for me? Or blah. You know there's, there's on a. On the daily I'm I'm hit with several hundred emails of sob stories to request for money for me to invest. And then it's the postings about the internet where I've seen reaction videos where, oh, what I've said, is it technically feasible, et cetera. And it's true, right, that when people are subjugated to intense scrutiny, it really alters who you are. And to sit there and watch people doubt the honest truth of coming out and saying, hey, this is what I've done and this is who I am, and here's a little advice for your life.
Gummo:It's been very difficult dealing with that, dealing with people that I've assisted in locking up, putting in prison and assisting in apprehending. These people are now coming out of prisons and jails and and exile and they're coming out and now they have a face to put with the person who worked at securing their incarceration. And so it's, it's, it's, you know, I've told mark. I told mark later a couple times that you know it's really, you know, I kind of really wish I never had done the interviews, because at that point I was, you know, I was doing hackers podcast for five years and now we're going into the 10th year Shameless plug, we'll have a leak, we'll have a leak and it's really changed my life.
Gummo:I've had government agencies come after me and when I say come after me, they've, you know, like last year I've had, I had famous hackers, right, people who you said no, they work for the CIA, big surprise, or they work for NSA, or they work for FBI, If you either working for IO3 or they're working for GCHQ or MI6, or you know, there's so many intelligence sources. And so last year I had to deal with literally the CIA coming at me and just trying to steal my Bitcoin. Wow, and it was, it was devastating, it was, it was frightening, it was, it was. It just devastated my perception of security. And so, yeah, I had to deal with that. And then I just started living in hotels. And so, while I'm in America, mega billionaire lifestyle, no, I live in hotels and I stay out of, I stay low key because I have to, because it's a risk to my personal, my personal safety. So it's, it's been.
Gummo:My life has changed over the past five years and as a result of those two interviews right, I've, I don't, I don't grant interviews anymore because you know I don't want to write a book. Yet you know, when I'm 75 or 80, you know, fine, I'll write a book or you know, they'll tell everything. Things that I've done throughout my life and career are stroke, highly classified and I'm unable to speak on it for another 15 years. So does your life change? Did my life change? Yes, and it's just become, it's just become more complicated.
Sebastian:So, yeah, it's been tough. I can't imagine like I. I'm not well, not all. I have a tiny, tiny pocket, mini fame, and I already get stressed out by the number of requests for people who want to meet up with me and it just really grounds me down after a while, and I was talking to my partner about this yesterday, actually about how I just want to withdraw. Have you ever been? I was going to ask if you regretted the video, but you answered that Are you ever tempted? Obviously you have the level of wealth to do this, but are you ever tempted to? You know, just completely disappear. You know, close all social channels, change your name. You know, just, really, really totally disappear. Go to I don't know South American country or something. It must cross your mind, right?
Gummo:every day it crosses my mind whether or not I wish to disappear from the world, but I feel like if I disappear, then the people that I've I've allowed cloak to live within their hearts. I feel like I'll take that away from and and I don't want to do that yet I've I've from from the writings that people have shared with me their, their personal stories of their, their struggles and their successes. They write to me and they write to me and I read every email and they write to me, you know, thanking me for allowing them to give them the inspiration to, you know, to go on with their life right To to, to obtain a career in cybersecurity, and so many women, thousands of women, have now entered into cybersecurity because of that one video, and that fucking makes me good, it makes me feel good, and so I'm sticking around for that. You know, virtually I have to act off of social media quite a lot. I've, you know.
Gummo:I still post poems and photos of flowers and an occasional snippet or quip here and there on the social media platform x, where we've met, but that's the only platform and I I tend to withdraw quite a bit from it when I feel overwhelmed. That's quite often over the past 24 months since the new owners have moved in. So I do quite often think about just walking away from the world and I'm backing away this summer from the world for a little bit. The podcast will still go on, but yeah, I guess you were feeling that divide, because I cannot imagine.
Sebastian:I really can't. So I want to shift tack a little bit. Actually, no, I've got one more question on this, and then we to shift tack a little, but actually no, I've got one more question on this, and then we'll shift tack a little bit. As a result of those videos, or as a result of of what those videos are portrayed. You have what do you think is the most misunderstood aspect of you?
Gummo:oh me telling the truth. It hurt, it hurts my heart for people to say that I wasn't telling the truth. I mean, why else would I, you know, why else would I could tell the truth? I mean that hurts the most when people you know, they, they think you know, for some reason or another that I would make this, this, my life up, or the or my background up, which you know it's, it's, it hurts and it hurts to be called a criminal right, because I don't see myself in either of the two dimensions. And so you know I don't engage, you know, I just don't engage with hurtful, hateful, negative or deceptive comments about who I am or the accomplishments that I've truly been able to complete. So you know.
Gummo:those who know me closely know very well of my, the accomplishments and who I am, of the accomplishments of what I've been able to do and who I am, and that gives me solace. And understanding that and knowing that people are entering into the field of information technology and understanding learning hacking especially the girls that gives me a vast amount of solace.
Sebastian:So, yes, I think they used to say don't feed the trolls when I was younger. You don't hear that so much in terms of internet haters anymore, but it's definitely one of the older phrases. I know we've had conversations before on technical depth. You know offline and perhaps I'm not. I don't want to go into too overly technical stuff. I will say I know from the conversations we've had you have an enormous amount of knowledge on specialist subjects.
Sebastian:I want to talk a little bit about the early internet and that kind of era, because I do feel that there was a real golden age for hacking. I would say there was a golden age of hacking between kind of the mid-80s to the mid-90s, because that's when I was on the fringes of that community and there was this I think the intersection was for the first time. Zoom, upgrade technology hit the level where you could go in and for a few hundred dollars you could buy, you know, a modem and a computer, a tandy or whatever, and you could plug that in and dial into a mainframe computer, but for relatively low cost. And secondly, there's that overlap between this hardware becoming available and kids playing with it and corporate and wider InfoSec procedures being almost non-existent. And when I look back at some of the stuff I used to play about with and I'm going to stay deliberately vague here.
Sebastian:It was trivially easy compared to the level of security we have today. Corporations have wised up even in the last 20 years, since 2000, 2005,. Trivially easy compared to the level of security we have today. Corporations have even in the last 20 years, you know, since 2000, 2005 it's. It's so so much better than it was. But in the in the 90s it really was kind of open season to a certain extent, and you know how. How do you deal with this paradox, or what advice do you have on this paradox, or what I think is a paradox of information security is so much better than it was even 20 years ago, yet we are putting more and more of our lives on the internet, on the cloud. Are we in a better place or a worse place than 20 years ago, do you think?
Gummo:We're in a far better place than when we're 20 years ago because we have more people paying attention to those particular processes. Back then in the in the mid 80s to mid 90s there there was no security. There there was that cyber security. That wasn't even. I don't even think that was a word back in those days. And yeah, I can certainly remember the Tandy 1000TX color computers and the 336 mod modems back in the day, which were quite fun. It was fun. It was fun to connect the networks back in those days.
Sebastian:I miss the disconnect. You know there's so many layers of abstraction now between what using a computer and the end thing. Back in those days you know you turn what using a computer and the end thing. Back in those days you know you turn the power button on and the stromp just came on instantly. And if you wanted to, you know tinker with a memory address, you could. It was real, real fun. A high, low, high, lowing curve. But maybe I'm just being overly nostalgic and I'm just getting old now. But they really felt like there was purity or excitement to it. But I don't quite feel with modern technology.
Gummo:There was, and it was a wonderful time to be in technology, because no one had any expectation of people manipulating technology for misuse until the 1986 Computer, 1986, computer fraud and abuse act of was enacted, was, you know, became law in the united states only then, that's when, you know, after, after that particularly well became effect in 86, afterwards and around 88, that's when organizations started hiring, you know, computer security leadership and et cetera. And so it was, it was, it was an afterthought, it was, you know, it professionals and people in the field have been playing catch up ever since, trying to. You know, it's always that cat and mouse game, but you know, once that genie is out of the bottle, it stays out of the bottle. There's you. There must be new ways there. There must be new ways to think creatively to deal to combat uh, the existing uh landscape of uh threats that continue to emerge every day yeah, absolutely, and that that 1986 act.
Sebastian:That's when the fbi started cracking down really hard on what a lot of the time we're just teenagers having fun and and being teenagers, you know, in the way that they do.
Sebastian:Just on a new medium and for any listeners, there's a book I absolutely love called the gang that ruled cyberspace, and this is about kind of online turf war between a texas and new york-based hacker collective One was the Masters of Deception and one was the Legion of Doom and they were just having a teenage pissing contest. Really, you know, hacking into all sorts of crazy places. They weren't causing damage and when this law came into effect and when, you know, the hackers started entering the public perception in the 80s, right, there were a few Hollywood movies that made these guys the bad guys guys, even though that's not what hacking is and I'm going to ask you a little bit about that in a minute. But you know, you, you saw these teenagers getting getting huge prison sentences and fiber optic back in the day, really, really famous guy and you know a few of the others and, yeah, he hacked his way right into prison. Do you think they were done a disservice?
Gummo:No, I think they created an immense awareness on the possibilities of the potential abuse and outcomes of what can take place in these types of systems, in those types of systems that hackers like Fiberopic and many others were compromising, that hackers like FiberOpic and many others were compromising. And back then their curiosity was more than financial. It was more curiosity than financial curiosity or motivation, and so I think they opened so many doors to where we stand now in the cybersecurity domain. All of those people played a significant role in modern cybersecurity, whether they actively understood their future intentions or not. I absolutely think that everyone, everyone in you know Cult of the Dead Cow, all of these groups, right, they all contributed in a positive manner to our current, you know, existence in computer computing, cybersecurity I don't know, I don't know what to call it anymore. But technology I don't know what to call it anymore.
Sebastian:It's constantly evolving. It's constantly evolving. You're right that these guys created this industry. They are, you know, they started out with curiosity, at times straight onto the wrong side of law, but mainly a lot of these guys then, as they stopped being teenagers and grew up, realized there's probably more money to be made legally than illegally from this and, you know, created these huge companies. I remember chatting to very briefly online lloyd blankenship once, who wrote the hackers manifesto I think was published in one of the early crack and you know we were saying but a lot of these kids at the time they they didn't know what was going on in the future. They were just curious, just really curious about exploring these systems and playing about with them. And do you think what would you define when you say the term hacker, because that's evolved over time, right, what is your definition of hacker?
Gummo:My definition of a hacker is someone who's curious. My definition of a hacker is someone who's infinitely curious and wishes to solve complex problems. I believe that is the true definition of a hacker Someone who uses their skills to do good things with, to discover something new. Do good things with, to discover something new, to share that knowledge, not just retain it and become some sort of self-inflicted prima donna, but to share that information with others. That is what a hacker does. A hacker shares their information with others so others can learn, and then many more can learn, and then it becomes a thing. It becomes more than an idea or an ideal. It becomes a tangible thing, and so I do believe that calling myself a hacker is appropriate for my intentions, both past, present and the future. So you know, it doesn't mean anything more than just being a curious person who wishes to share information freely and openly, without you know, without any reservation or monetary foresight.
Sebastian:Is that what keeps you going now? Because you know I hope you don't mind me saying it's public knowledge now but you've got a huge amount of Bitcoin going into billions of dollars. You could be on a beach sipping pina coladas or whatever. What is it that keeps you going in this industry at the moment? Is it curiosity? Is it? I think you've talked briefly once about wanting to protect victims what is it that motivates you these days?
Gummo:I'm always searching for answers. I've never stopped searching for answers. Helping people is in solving complex problems. Preventing some asshole, hacker or nation state stealing someone's $300 a week paycheck that's the shit that keeps me going. The plain person who depends on technology transparently that's what keeps me going. To see families together, playing with their children, to see two people in love holding hands and kissing there's so much that goes into preventing that from not happening and from doing the right thing ensuring that people are happy and keeping bad people out of technology.
Gummo:That's yeah. That's I mean. Yeah, I could go live in a zillion dollar mansion on a beach somewhere and become an asshole, but is that really who I am and is that my calling? I mean, I don't really like hiding from the NSA or CIA or FBI or many other organizations and living in hotels, but that's a risk. That's my own choosing. That's my own choosing. I do have places that are away from the world that I normally go to, to get away from the world, which I'm about to go for a few months. People's happiness and people sharing love with the people that they love that's what keeps me going, nothing else Seeing people happy.
Sebastian:That's very, very beautiful. One of the pitfalls of modern technology we talked about lack of privacy, loss of security, but I think, in terms of vulnerable people, it's now given bad actors essentially a tunnel straight into the hand of very, very vulnerable people, very, very vulnerable people. There's a story a few months ago now about I think it was a woman in America who lost a large amount of money because she was talking to an AI video of Brad Pitt and she got convinced that it was the real Brad Pitt and he wanted to marry her and was in love with her because he'd seen her profile. He wanted to marry her and was in love with her because he'd seen her profile. Now I don't want to speculate too much on that woman, but I'd say it might be a fair guess. There was some vulnerability there in one form or another.
Sebastian:And that's what really angers me is when you see very, very vulnerable people, especially elderly. Elderly really gets to me being exploited by these people losing their life savings, losing their pensions and and kind of exploiting their lack of of technical awareness. And it's just great. There's just people like you out there. But I kind of fighting a good fight really and, um, I'm pushing back you, and there's a couple of youtube channels where they kind of bait these scammers. I don't know if you see them. I may do the voice changes. They are awesome.
Gummo:Yeah, I love those scam baiting channels I love that.
Sebastian:What a beautiful world we live in where people can earn ad revenue from doing videos of beijing stammers. I just think that's like the wonderful, that's the good end of technology right and how it can be used for social goods indeed, and those are the people who deserve the recognition.
Gummo:Those are absolutely because they they're doing the grunt work.
Sebastian:Yes, yeah, I. I think it's great because I don't want to sound too skeptical or too cynical but a lot of the bigger government agencies that try and raise awareness about this or charities. I think they have the best intentions at heart, but they're not really doing. I think the people who are doing the most are people like you and people like the YouTube channel, who are actively going out there and fighting back against the tide, back against the tide. I want to ask you a little bit about ai. I I've tried not to talk about too much about ai in the podcast because everybody's talking about it 24 hours a day at the moment, but how concerned are you about that in terms of? We talked about scamming via kind of digital spoofing of of faces and things like that. Are there any other attack vectors with ai that we should know about or be concerned about?
Gummo:oh, oh my God, every attack vector is becoming an artificial intelligence-driven scenario. Yeah, I believe we should be worried about all types of AI in the hands of criminals, and that is a significant problem that's continuing to evolve Even as we speak, problem that's continuing to evolve even even as we speak. There's, there's a criminal somewhere right now discovering some new vector that they can incorporate ai into. It's significantly worrisome. As you know, leaders of organizations are are spoofed right to you know contact other leaderships within their organization to for financial gain or for romance scares or for for interpersonal theft.
Gummo:Celebrities I've you know, celebrities are highly susceptible to this type of technology and its misuse, as has several are several celebrities reach out to me asking you know how, how can, how can they prevent you know a threat actor from using their likeness with ai?
Gummo:And yeah, the shorter answer, shorter order answer is currently you cannot, because there's no, there's no technology that can differentiate between AI-generated video, audio and then real world. And so that's the unfortunate answer these days that I've been giving some of my clients, because when you're famous, you're making videos, you've got sound bites and all AI needs is the five-tenths of a second to you know recreate who you are and your personality. Yeah, so the misuse of AI by criminals is becoming unfortunately, is becoming more of a mainstream scenario, and traditional levels of computing and foresight, with security intertwined, is becoming less secure because of artificial intelligence. So it's a very significant issue. And, yeah, late, it's been the latest buzzword because you've got specific ceos on stage. You know howding their latest five thousand five xxx processor, and so this this drives, you know it's driving innovation. But it's also driving crime their latest 5,000, 5xxx processor, and so this drives, you know it's driving innovation but it's also driving crime, and so AI is just going to be.
Sebastian:I'm getting flashbacks of again. I'm showing my age, but when you get executives standing on stage talking about the inflammation super high rate or web 2.0, you know they really go with these buzzwords, they love them, and I think the truth is nobody yet fully understands the implications of what. Where this is going to go. We can take guesses and try and extrapolate the line forward, but if technology teaches us anything is that it's incredibly hard to predict in what direction it's going to go and how it's going to change over the next 10 years.
Sebastian:There was another story that I saw relatively recently about an executive who got scammed and they were on a zoom call and they ai spoofed the entire board, or several members of the board, and I think he transferred something like 26 million dollars because you know he had the ceo and the CFO on the call being like yep, we offer Asus and yeah, it's crazy, if there's any enterprising founders listening, maybe we need some kind of video stream encryption that embeds some kind of cryptographic hash into digital files.
Sebastian:Encryption that embeds some kind of cryptographic hash into digital files, and then you know when, when zoom picks it up. It has a plugin that can verify that this is an authorized celebrity feed or something proving embedded digital watermark on the pixels. I don't know, but I'm sure it's an arms race, right the the ai's here, where the first people in any new technology you take advantage of tend to be the hackers, whether they're notorious or not. And then it takes private industry a little bit of lag time to come up with countermeasures. That's my experience of it. So I think we're in that early part where the tinkerers, good and bad, are finding these things with AI. And, you know, I think within another year or two we're going to start to see the first big security products come out. But who knows, it's going to be exciting.
Gummo:It is, and it's an exciting time to bear witness to the transformation of technological computing and its divergence into our everyday lives.
Gummo:And for any thought leaders or organizational leaderships that are tuning into your podcast, all they really have to do to prevent AI impersonations is to call together a meeting in person with your leader, with other leaders in your organization, and then share a unique password that leaders use amongst themselves and ensure, just like a computer password, ensure that that password rotates each month and so when, when that occurs, you know, leadership will ask amongst themselves well, hey, what's the password? And if they have the password, and if the criminal cannot produce the password, then there it is, and so very simple common sense will really throw that in the shitter right, because all you have to do is just create a password. Within even in your family, you should create a password, because threat actors are contacting family members saying that they're stuck somewhere and that wire them some money, and then you know, then, what you know. So create a password amongst people that you trust to ensure that they are who they say they are.
Sebastian:I think it's really good advice. I think it's interesting that, as the technology gets more and more sophisticated, sometimes some of the older methods are the best, and what you described there reminds me of the old spy movies. You know, where two agents would meet up and not know each other. So they have this excuse like the flowers in moscow are bright this spring or something, and it would be the code word and they will reply and you're so so right. I think we're going to see more and more at first, particularly with audio, like we've had spandilas for decades, but I think we're about to see spandilas on steroids, impersonating all kinds, because I don't want to sound horrible, but like for me. You know, big, big red flag sometimes when you get these spam calls is is a lot of these spam call centers are based in India, right? So if it's an Indian accent or a Bangladeshi accent, it's a bit not always, but it can be a red flag. I think we're going to get super sophisticated AI voice cloning. We're already here with it, but I think we're going to see it apply more and more, and I think you're absolutely right going back to having a tree of greed.
Sebastian:So we've only got about five minutes left and it pains me how quickly these interviews go sometimes, because I could easily talk to you for hours about some of this stuff In the time we've got left. I want to shift away from hacking a little bit and I want to talk to you about something I've seen you tweet about a lot over the last year or so and we've had a couple of conversations on it, which is quantum computing, and I've seen you while not going into it perhaps as a full-on career. I've seen you become interested in it. I'm tweeting about it a bit more. Could you tell us a little bit about why piques your interest and how, how confident you are, what potential this has to be the next big thing?
Gummo:sure. Well, I knew that the question would come sooner or later. What, what? What piques my interest in quantum computing is quantum mechanics.
Gummo:I've always been fascinated with the, the concept of time travel. I've always been fascinated with you know, ever since my mom died in 85, I've always had that, that fascination of you know, going back, you know, going back just to see my mom for one more day. And so I entered the field through that specific vector of curiosity. And then it's the philosophy and the understanding of the science in the quantum universe understanding. It's fascinating. It's just fascinating to me, coming from a logic, a logical background, linear logical computing background, and in life, where now in in the quantum realm, there's, there's new states of matter, there's new states of dimension, there's new states of computing within the matter that contains these dimensions. And I find that extraordinarily fascinating, knowing that computations and calculations don't take they don't take time, they, they take presence and they have a. They have a state of being rather than a state of linear reality. Knowing that I can solve a complicated mathematical problem that would take classical computers millions and trillions of years. In the quantum computing world it takes a fraction of a second because the states of matter are in two places at once, and so understanding the coherence between these two states of matter to get those two states of matter to a display with a keyboard and a mouse, as we've known traditionally, is quite a considerable challenge.
Gummo:There's many companies out there at the forefront Google, microsoft are paving their own path in quantum computing, and it's extraordinarily fascinating, and I wish I could be part of some of those teams. But I'm learning at my own pace, as I've always have Self-taught, as I've always have self-taught, as I've always been, and so I find it fascinating that eventually, in the not-so-distant future, I will be able to go onto the Internet Archive and download that encrypted file that someone had uploaded and then decrypt it and see what was in it, see what it was all about, because there's so much concept that I'm curious to see what it's all about. So having that type of power and knowledge to me is crucial to being able to share that when I'm really ready to retire as a person, not just a hacker. And so I believe that quantum computing has extraordinary benefits for our future and our lives.
Gummo:Quantum computing will find new drugs that we haven't even thought about yet, about yet it will, it will find it will in the, in the fields of medicine and in construction and in our everyday, in finance, right. I believe that there's a new, there's a new reality that awaits us beyond. You know what we're so used to in a classical computing world. So, without getting too technical, I hope that kind of rounds it out.
Sebastian:It's fascinating. I barely barely understand it, like I scratched the surface of some of the pop sci-fi books on it, and the concept of time is fascinating. Thank you, by the way, for such a really personal answer. I thought you were going to talk about breaking encryption or something, but that was a really lovely answer. And you're right. There's microsoft recently. I'm going to forget the name of this, was it majorana one? The quantum chip that they announced about a month or two ago? And again, these things are still these companies what they're producing. My understanding is that at present, these are glorified toys. Essentially, it's a going to be that long before these toy examples have enough processing power to instantly break any traditional methods of encryption we have. I think that's right. Does that worry? Does that worry you about, like bitcoin and crypto? But that system could collapse it once quantum quantum chips, quantum computers, get powerful enough.
Gummo:It does not concern me with existing cryptocurrencies in the world, as Bitcoin has a stable of wonderful developers who are absolutely keen to, and ready, if not overzealous, to employ lattice-based encryption, which would secure the Bitcoin ecosystem, and I'm sure other developers with other ecosystems are thinking along the same lines. I think cryptocurrencies in the future will be quite well off and stable. It's the algorithms that protect them, and currently you have a secure hash algorithm that's protecting ecosystems in the cryptographic world, and so that'll continue. There'll be an upgrade to these blockchains that are secured with traditional encryption, but in the future, yes, blockchains will absolutely employ lattice-based encryption, which will help, will resist quantum attacks, because when you're attacking a blockchain type of technology, you're attacking its core fund foundation, and so it'll be fine. Bitcoin will be fine, ethereum will be fine, all of the others there's thousands of them. They'll all be fine. It's the ecosystems that choose not to employ that type of technology in the future, where, you know, threat actors and criminals are able to divest their knowledge with quantum computing and to talk and to back up just a little bit on quantum computing, these companies, the, the limitations that these companies are having are the limitations that everyone is having, which is.
Gummo:In quantum computing, the slightest vibration can cause chaos. And vibrations, no vibrations, noise are the two biggest problems with quantum computing. And how do we? How do we isolate that? How do we isolate that? How do we isolate the vibrations? I've tried, I've tried, I've blown so many processors and I've burned myself cryogenically. So that is the bottleneck. Right Is reducing the interference from outside elements and from within its own element and from within its own element. That is the holy grail. Not the holy grail, but that's the end game for quantum to become reality.
Gummo:I believe we're at around 12 to 24 qubits at the high end, where we're talking about the NSA in Utah using it in that particular manner. But I believe NSA in Utah they're setting at about 42 to 48 qubits. So it's becoming a thing. Uh, yeah, I shouldn't have divulged that, but I don't give a fuck. And um, it's um, it's going to become more of a? Um, mainstream practice.
Gummo:But in the future, our lives will be inherently more secure with quantum computing as there are no cyber security, there's no traditional cyber security threats as they currently exist now, as to where they will be in the future with quantum. And so that's an exciting place to be in the future where you don't have to worry about the criminal you know hacking your system or stealing your data, because they'll be. With quantum, there is no theft, there is none of that, it doesn't exist, and so there's much to look forward to with that particular state of computing, and we need more people, we need many more people to enter into the field to help solve these complex problems, because traditional computers will not solve quantum computing problems. Our imaginations will, and so that's what my hope is for for many people to continue to enter into the field to solve these particular problems that currently exist.
Sebastian:Amazing. We we said five minutes ago we don't know where technology is going to go with AI. I think when you add quantum to the mix, it's going to be an extremely interesting 20 years coming up. Like everything, there's going to be an arms race. Your technology, inherently, is neutral. Whether you apply it for good or bad depends on the type of person you are. So there's going to be an arms race in the applications of AI and quantum between those two different types of people, but hopefully that will end in an overall better place for everyone as things get stronger, more robust.
Sebastian:It's fascinating, absolutely fascinating. I wish I could talk to you for hours, but I'm going to have to draw to a close there because we've come to time. Enormous thank you. If listeners are interested in hearing more from Gummo, there's obviously the two famous Softwhite underbelly interviews. There's also, of course, gummo's podcast, hackers XXX, which I think is now on your NeverRain portal. Obviously we'll put a link in that. Hundreds of hours of great content I'm a frequent listener and anything else you want to mention Any projects you're working on, any projects that you have friends that are working on but aren't getting enough exposure that you want to give a shout out to Anything at all in this last minute or two.
Gummo:No, thank you for the opportunity that I choose not to lay bias onto myself or to others, but I do wish everyone the very best with their projects and their aspirations, and yeah. I just you know. I just want to say thank you as well for luring me out of the woods for this interview. It's been three years years, and so it's it's been. It's been good to get a few things off my chest and tell the truth once again.
Sebastian:So, yes, thank you for having me. The pleasure has been all mine. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so.