It's a lot easier when you're a bit younger and dumber , and I miss that part of myself . To be honest with you , in the UK it's 20 quid a bottle . I've always thought about it that some people get paid 20 quid an hour . So you know , if someone's going to give you an hour of their life , bloody , make it good if they're drinking your product as well , and I honestly believe in that . So you give them two times the raspberry crumble because you're pulling out 90 of the water weight , but you've got 20 tons of flavor hi , hi lono nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the lono drinker podcast .
Speaker 2Today I am chatting with the lovely aaron trotman , the founder and inspired mind behind the non-alcoholic wine alternative brand , um . A trip to the non-world website is like an open invitation to the senses . This brand is all about flavour . It's about how these drinks make you feel and really enjoying them as part of a lifestyle , and I'm really intrigued by it . Just watching their VT made my cheeks sort of juice up with all the amazing foods that you see on there , so it was fabulous With flavours like salted raspberry and chamomile and stewed cherry and coffee . These drinks are very unique and they taste amazing too , and it's a really hard job that I have in my life , but I've got two glasses right here in front of me .
Speaker 1The suffering continues .
Speaker 2I know it's a hard life , aaron , but somebody's got to do it right Totally . It's a hard life , aaron , but somebody's got to do it right Totally . So thank you for joining me , my darling . I am really excited as I said to you before we pressed record to get to know more about you and these amazing , amazing drinks . I always like to start by asking my guests to share a bit about themselves ,
so you know , start where you want to start .
Speaker 1But what is it that led you to make these crazy and unique and gorgeous drinks ? Well , thanks for having me . You've set me up for , hopefully , success here with all those kind words . So it started in London , actually at the Clove Club . So I had the wine pairing and my wife had the non-alcoholic pairing and during that meal I tried my wife's drinks and I was like these are really cool and really interesting , these non-alcoholic pairings , and that was in 2017 .
Speaker 1And then our thing was going and eating , ticking off bucket list restaurants and traveling around and doing all those sorts of things , and I was kind of like why can't you buy those non-alcoholic parent drinks or that style in a bottle ? Because they're really good , they're really interesting and they weren't very accessible . So they live and died in the restaurants and the meals are very expensive they're $500 , you know , depending on where they are , they're really long , they take ages to get into , even if you can't get into them and I was just like , ah , that feels like a good idea , I'll just do that . I hadn't done any market research and sure enough , it worked out and there was a need for it and a want for it and it was just a bit of blind faith and jumped off the cliff and built the plane on the way down and it seems to be sort of flying , I suppose .
Speaker 2So it's going okay I love these stories where people excuse me , I might sound a bit croaky , I'm getting over a cold , so excuse me if I , if I , if I get all gruff , I'm going for the husky , sexy vibe . I love these stories where founders are like I went somewhere or I did something and it was rubbish and I thought I can do that better , and so I did . And you come from , you didn't know what you were doing , you didn't know how to get it done , you just went . I'm sure I can figure it out , like , where do you get the cojones to just go ? All right , let's just make it happen .
Speaker 1It's a lot easier when you're a bit younger and dumber , and I miss that part of myself , to be honest with you , because you don't go . Oh , what about our decisions that we're making now , and is it going to land , and how are we going to distribute that idea and all those sorts of things . It was just like , ah , this feels good , let's just go for it . Yeah , this is bad .
Speaker 2Let's just do it and see what happens .
Speaker 1Yeah , totally . And then by the time we went from a 20-litre pot and started getting pretty serious into a 1,500-litre kettle and now a 15,000-litre tank . It's still all the same . But I was just like , ah , I know why no one's done this before , because it's really hard , it's really shit .
Speaker 2Oops , okay .
Speaker 1I'm like we're all in , so we'll just have to figure it out .
Speaker 2Oh my God , there are so many ways I want to take this conversation , because there's so much that I want to ask you about . I want to ask you about the flavor combinations and , obviously , your love of food and ingredients and how that came about and how you put it together . I want to ask you about Australia , which is where you are , for anyone who didn't recognize the accent and the differences over there . I want to ask you about your personal journey as well . So there's a lot of stuff that I want to cover without sort of bombarding you , but let's start with the drinks themselves
. Let's start with the brand , but let's start with the drinks themselves . Let's start with the with the brand . Um . So tell me a bit about what's in the range and and how you came about these amazing combinations , because I've got , for those of you who are watching the video , I've got some behind me here , um , and I'm tasting at the moment a is it cinnamon and yuzu ?
Speaker 1toastasted Cinnamon and Yuzu is the official name .
Speaker 2Toasted Cinnamon and Yuzu , and then the other one that I've got is the Salted Raspberry and Chamomile , and these are amazing , amazing drinks with great flavour combinations that you don't find in many places . How did you get to this point ?
Speaker 1So to start with we just made yummy drinks . We were like this is cool , these are unexpected combinations . Until we got a little bit more sophisticated and actually figured out well , drinks , brands and why it drinks people . They're like , what do you exist for ? And I'm like , I don't know . We just make yummy drinks , funnily enough , but it ended up being the wine alternative in the category and the importance of it is that there's a fruit , tannin , salt and acid component to the drink . So acid was always important and that's all , and it's in all the drinks . And that comes from a wine base , so semi-iron and chardonnay blend , but it doesn't go through fermentation , so that's for you . So they pick it about three weeks earlier . So that's the base . And then salt's really important to balance out sweetness and also bring everything together as well . So that's what's consistent across the entire range that there's a salinity component but there's an acid component . So Verjuice is in all of them . But sometimes you might swap out that salt component for olive brine or soy sauce or whatever it is for that time .
Speaker 1Um to go , the salted raspberry and chamomile . So then it's freeze-dried raspberries . They're real raspberries the whole . We buy raspberries in season and then we get them freeze-dried . So we just brought 20 tons of raspberries and then when they're freeze-dried they go to two tons . So you get them two tons of raspberry crumble because you're pulling out 90% of the water weight but you've got 20 tons of flavor .
Speaker 1So there's just been some beautiful accidents along the way that we end up finding that was the best flavor but also worked out really well for scale when we had to get to scale and we are at scale that we have used preservative- , preservative methods to to get the flavor into the drinks . And then what's really important to me is that we weren't ever chasing a mock or a mimic version of alcohol as well . So the unexpected fish finish that you're experiencing now , that's what's really important , because you're like , okay , I'm having a whole new experience altogether , and that's what I had at the start where . So the chamomile gives you that interesting finish in the salted raspberry and chamomile and you know you've got a citrus with the dehydrated orange and the yuzu , but then you've got a cinnamon finish and you're like , whoa , what's going on here ? But it's really interesting , it's a conversation starter and it's all just part of socialising , right .
You . You're talking about what you're doing , what you're having , you're sharing it all those sorts of things . Were you always into food and flavour combinations ? Were you always like a foodie kind of person , or did it only start to evolve when you started putting these drinks together ?
Speaker 1So I grew up in the country and I used to have my steak , well done , until I was probably like 21 . But I like flavour , but I was like I was . We call them bogans here . So , um , I was a bit of a bogan , to be honest . And then I remember I went to nobu .
Speaker 1I became um mates with a friend of mine now . Um , obviously , and he was like , oh , try raw fish . No man , no way . And um , sure enough , I I'm like , oh , this is delicious , it's so good . But you know , I was having it at like a Nobu or something .
Speaker 1So I was like I was always when I was trying weird stuff , I was always like having it in the best possible scenario . So when I went to dinner by Heston in London I was like , cool , I'm going to get pigeon . I , cool , I'm going to get pigeon , I'm going to get frog's legs . If I'm ever going to try them , I'm going to do them when Heston's booked them . So then I started to get more adventurous as I got older and then , once I started to travel more , and especially Europe I love Europe then that's when it started to really develop , and just interesting experiences and giving people interesting experiences probably were the most interesting thing to me and not being boring , really , it's like you know , and that's part of our brand as well , it's like if other brands go in this way , we go in that way , sort of thing , and that's always been the case as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , first of all , great philosophy . If you're going to have these weird and wonderful foods for the first time , have them cooked by the people that do them the best in the world , right , but absolutely . I don't think anybody can ever accuse your brand of being boring in any way , shape or form . Um , from the way you present it on your website to the , what you put forward in your social media , a term to the , the drinks themselves , um ,
you've got quite a range um , and it's slightly different in australia than it is available over here . Not to put you on the spot , because I'm sure you're not uploading websites and that sort of thing . What's the sort of difference in what you're providing over here and what we can get in the UK versus what people can get in Australia ?
Speaker 1So for us , when we initially export , we always go in with the core range . So that's one , three and 7 that you have behind you and notice we've got a little 2 there as well . So that's part of our seasonal or capture ranges as well . So you're very lucky . We go into all new markets with the 1 , 3 , and 7 . So there's the blush , white and darker occasion , essentially that we're going after . It's like look , let the colours do the work for now to match the occasion , and then people will have the drinks , hopefully fall in love with them , and then we'll bring in new things .
Speaker 1And then for us , as we kind of spend longer in the market , we would commercialise . So you know , some of the top tier places that we get to brag about might not be happy that we're in another place . So we go hey , we've got this other stuff for you as well . So we use it very strategically from that point of view . So it's like , yeah , the more crazy and interesting flavours , not saying that the other ones aren't , but the other ones can get pretty wild .
Speaker 1Those ones we sort of hold back and then we start to bring them in and we do it a bit later . But also for those as well is they're really hard to scale . So for the non-two that you have in the background there , like we get two and a half tonnes of pears and we've got to roast every single one of those pears , it takes about four days to do it . So for that it has to be purely seasonal and it has to be when they're in season . So the pairs are where we need them to be and the run will be the run . We can't do more than that . So again , we don't want to over-promise and under-deliver . Essentially that would be the worst thing ever .
Speaker 2So yeah , yeah , absolutely , and I understand especially if you're using these amazing fresh ingredients and especially being somewhere like Australia where you're growing a much sunnier quality of fresh fruit and botanicals than we generally grow over here due to the climate and things you know you need to be able to treat those the best way possible at the right times . The best way possible at the right times . I'm just having a look on your website right now as we're talking and I can see you've got a lovely set that you see , your everyday set , which people can jump on and buy . Obviously I'll put up the details , but over here it's uknonworld and you can get a lovely set with your one three and seven , which is your salted raspberry and chamomomile , which is the one that I have here which has got a lovely little um carbonation to it .
Speaker 2It's a . It feels like a real special occasion kind of drink when I , when I had it um . And then the non three , which is the toasted cinnamon and yuzu um , which has the appearance of , you know , sort of you're just normal looking wine or or lightly sparkling , but , as I said , you know that flavour bomb that gets you . And then Non 7 , which is stewed cherry and coffee , which sounds . I haven't opened that one yet because I didn't want to open too many at once , but that sounds intense . Tell me about that .
Yeah , so that one , we call it kind of Melbourne in the glass . It's very I think it works for like New York in the glass , andbourne in the glass um , it's very I think it works for like new york in the glass and london in the glass as well . So it's a real mismatch . So with that one we're roasting cherries in the oven , so they're frozen , so that's given that fruit component I was talking about earlier . But then we lay a spice blend on top , so it's pink peppercorn , garam masala , nutmeg and all spice . Now , as the cherries that are frosting in the oven , the spices are blooming and slightly roasting , and then they'll embed into the cherries and then their skins will blister just a little bit , just a little bit of char . So from there we can sous vide those cherries and then we'll cold brew our own coffee as well .
Speaker 1So what we want is more of a chocolatey finish . There's not a high level of caffeine in the drink , it's just more for the flavour . Cold brew , not a high level of caffeine in the drink , it's just there , more for the flavor . Cold brew end up giving us that finish that we wanted . We didn't want a big , intense , intense espresso hit , so we end up doing cold brew , um , and then the verju for the acid and the salt as well , so that one's a real nice , just probably coming into the perfect weather for it over there now . Um , perfect with with , um , some roast meats and barbecue mushrooms or roasted mushrooms as well , just big earthy umami flavours and it's like the best thing ever to eat . With tiramisu it's like the best .
Speaker 2Sold . Anytime someone says something's good with tiramisu , I am absolutely sold . My favourite , yeah , absolutely . It is jumper weather or sweater weather over here now as as things are turning and people are looking for those deeper flavors . So when it comes to um non-alcoholic , alcohol-free drinks
, one of the biggest um comments that I receive from people all the time is you know , they're looking for that depth of flavor . Particularly wine drinkers seem to find that they're struggling the most . Somebody emailed me just a couple of days ago and said I've been sober , curious , for two years and the only thing that I keep going back for is red wine because I can't find those flavors that really replace that moment for me . Was that one of the reasons why you you've gone with some of these deeper flavors ?
Speaker 1sorry , yeah , it is , um , but we'd never go . Hey , we go , we look at the ingredients that we want to use and make it an interesting experience . You don't go , oh , hey , we need to make a bread , like , we don't think of it like that , um , I don't know , at a market fit , we don't look at the market , fit , the market doesn't know what they want . You just make it and you put it in and you do what you do and you get that . It shows up the places that you wanted to and it's , it's pretty simple like that . So , um , we , yeah , we definitely avoid that .
Speaker 1And I think that the red is the biggest challenge because , just to make it really simple with wine , you have a singular ingredient and then goes through fermentation . That's wine , right , I like to think about it as if you had , say , cabbage , so raw white cabbage , not very nice . You ferment it , it becomes sauerkraut , it becomes really delicious . So if you try to remove that fermentation , you land in this middle ground of no man's land , which you're neither here nor there , essentially . So if you have multiple ingredients and you have building blocks and you can have more things that you can tune up and down to increase the palate , weight and the experience and the finish and all those sorts of things . You have a lot more control over it .
Speaker 1And I think that a lot of people love wine , they absolutely love wine . So to go and try to make a version of it , that's not quite there . You really sort of get someone's favorite song on a cd and scratching it and just you can't listen to it anymore . So I I understand where that sentiment comes from I think you make a really good point there .
Speaker 2Um , and one of the things that I I hope people take away from listening to this podcast and listening to founders like you is that , when it comes to low and low and light alcohol drinks , trying to find a direct comparison is is it's so you're taking yourself down a path where you're going to face some disappointments and it's also quite unfair to both the brands and to yourself to put that expectation on to these drinks . You know people have been fermenting wine for centuries and beers for centuries and have found these techniques to come up with these drinks that people have gotten to know and have been drinking for decades and decades . And then along comes brands like yourselves who are doing something completely new . We're building this industry day by day . As we go along , you know there's new and crazy and unique things coming out all the time , and so trying to say , but it doesn't taste like wine ? It's almost like comparing two different things . You're not going to get what you were looking for before .
Speaker 1But if you start trying to look for what you like and what you're tasting , then you're going to get a chance to have these amazing experiences I think yeah , I totally agree with you and I think you need to reframe just the way you're thinking about it or approaching it , because you're going like , during this time of the day , or with this food , I really enjoyed that , or I want something that goes well with it , or I want something yummy in this occasion . You know , it's the same way as you think about when you feel like something to eat . You've got to think about non-alcoholic drinks the same way and it makes it very simple at that point . So , and yes , you're not going to have a steak in a de-alcoholized red , it's just not having it , yeah , no , absolutely absolutely , and and
people do .
Speaker 2And food pairings is one of the big areas as well . I'm doing some research with with lona nation at the moment and one of the questions that's coming back quite often is um , drinks and food pairings . Uh , you know we've talked a lot about your amazing ingredients within the non-range . Is the whole eating experience part of who this drink is for ? Are you making it so that people can have amazing meal experiences or is this more for your ? Let's sit down with a friend and have a chat and a glass of something . Who is it that that that non is is for ? In that regard ?
Speaker 1it's for both of those things and it's also that needs to be really and I think it needs to be really simple and easy to do so and I think you need to feel good about what you've got . So that's why it's always been in a 750 ml bottle . You bottles at the same height as everyone else you're . You can put it in a wine glass if it's not triggering for you , of course , if you , if you've had any issues with alcohol . But yeah , I recommend definitely a stem wine glass and just sit there and it's pink bubbles , you know , and and and it goes . And it goes great with food and that enhances it again .
Speaker 1But it's fine to drink on its own as well , and that's what's's really important . That's why we put so much time and effort and build our facility into making sure that the drinks come out how we want them to come out and give customers a good experience . Like in the UK it's 20 quid a bottle . Like I've always thought about it that some people get paid 20 quid an hour . So you know if someone's going to give you an hour of their life bloody . So you know if someone's going to give you an hour of their life bloody , make it good if they're drinking your product as well , and I honestly believe in that .
Speaker 2I love that . I love that . That is a fantastic sentiment and a great way to think about how we are serving people and we're providing something for them to make their lives better and to make it worth the money that they are parting with , regardless of whether it's got alcohol in it or not . I absolutely love that you mentioned parting with regardless of whether it's
got alcohol in it a lot , I absolutely love that . Um , you mentioned there , you know , putting it into a wine glass if it's not triggering for people . I wondered if we could have just a brief chat about your own experiences . Um , I'll preface this by saying that this podcast is not a recovery podcast . This is not a sobriety podcast . I am not about telling people that they shouldn't drink or that it's evil or any of those things . This is just about the amazing drinks that people can have , but also how they can fit into people's lives , and I wondered what your own experiences were with really getting to grips with low and no drinks . As I mentioned before , we pressed record .
Speaker 1I saw in a previous conversation that you were speaking with somebody about your ADHD and I was interested to find out , because a lot of people in this space who speak to me , say that they also have ADHD and it's played a part in their choices to look at their drinking habits and I wondered if that was something that you'd experienced yeah , for sure , and I think it's that I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place to this , because I do like wine and I do , and I and I and I I'm not anti-drinking I think there needs to be a time when you're having a lunch and you don't want to get hammered , but the lunch is still going , or the dinner you want something that goes really well with it . So I think for me , that's really important . And then when I was younger and having ADHD , it was all sorts of abuse going around , of alcohol and everything as well , and then giving people better options and having access to us , to myself great , you know , I , I , I can consider it for sure . Um , the hard bit for me is that when you drink , drink your work , it's actually not that enjoyable as well . So I want , so I want some better , I want some better options out there as well .
Speaker 1Um , being in australia with the island , so everything goes to the US or everything comes to the UK , but not everything comes to Australia as well . So , um , yeah , a lot of great stuff out there . Um , and yeah , I wouldn't say I have a healthy relationship with it , um , at all , but yeah , it just is what it is .
Speaker 2And yeah , did you find that alcohol um made your um adhd worse , or um made situations , or was it the other way around , sort of you know , your your adhd led you to wanting to have a few more drinks to sort of maybe plateau yourself I was on the few more side of things and the numbing , the numbing of the senses and all those sorts of things for sure .
Speaker 2So yeah , yeah , absolutely , and it's sad , isn't it , that people will use alcohol to numb , uh , the , the senses or the bad stuff , but the flip side of that is that it also numbs the good stuff as well , and and so you can't sort of pick and choose what . What bits it . It cuts out for you , um , and that's why I think these , these drinks like yours are fantastic and why I do this podcast . Because , for you , um , and that's why I think these these drinks like yours are fantastic and why I do this podcast , because if you can have that moment , have that wine moment , have that wine glass and fill it with something delicious and feel like you're getting great value , then that can help people , whether that is because they have adhd , whether because they have a dependency , or whether they just have a three-year-old who's home and then they want to make sure that they can , you know , keep a clear head .
Speaker 1Totally . Yeah , it's all of those things . And you know , I've got friends now that are sending me messages and I've never thought that they would drink non-alcohol . It's like I'm not going to drink for six months . I've got your stuff now and I'm just like who are you like ? You know , it's like it is as it becomes more available and as
restaurants adopt it more and yeah , it's , it's , it's only gone restaurants will say we don't have customers for that . It's like you don't have anything you don't know . But now guinness zero is the number one selling beer in the uk , so it's just like , wow , it's not a trend anymore .
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely , absolutely . That's a point that is often made . I was actually speaking to a chap I was interviewing last week from sorry last week , when I was talking to Brad Compton from Session Spirit , which is a 25% gin , and he was saying that it's the same thing in terms of what customers are asking for and what bartenders or bars um managers are telling him and they're saying that people aren't asking for it so they don't stock it . But if people don't know that it's there to be asked for , then they won't ask for it and you'll never stock it and people will just go home with their hands in their pockets and you'll give them a glass of water .
Speaker 1Yeah , and hands in their pockets and you'll give them a glass of water . Yeah , and I truly believe and we've we've seen this and done some little trials ourself of it . If you don't have your online menus updated now , then it's the same way that people would look at for vegans , like , oh , we're going out , my friend , I don't have any vegan options . We'll go book somewhere else that has vegan options . Your online menu is the billboard for how you're going to get people in , and people are checking that stuff before they come . And you've got your open tables and I don't know what the most popular one is . In the uk . It might be open table as well , but people are checking that shit and they're like and you need to , you need to have something , you need to go . Hey , we care , we care , and you're going to come here and you're going to be . It's hospitality at the end of the day and we're going to be hospitable , like it's .
Speaker 2It's fairly simple , it's in the name the clue's in the name and it is it's . People are looking ahead , people are saying you know , I want to go out , I want to have a nice time with my friends , but I need to have something that I can drink as well . And so people are wanting to check . And it's no good . You're right just having so , even if you've got a good selection on the bar , um , first of all , put it on the bar , not in the fridge at the back at the bottom , where none of the staff ever see it and nobody knows , and and old lemons go to die , you know , put it in uh eye shot for people , make it special , make it seem like it's there on purpose , and then tell people about it and train the bar staff and train the weight staff so that they can talk to people about it , because a lot of people are still quite embarrassed or shy or nervous about asking for non-alcoholic drinks in bars .
Speaker 2And it always still shocks me because there's so , I guess because I'm so in it and I don't know about you , you know , when you're surrounded by some things , like you were saying earlier on you , when you're just drinking your own stuff all the time , you're like , okay , I've had this . You know because I see it all the time . I think a couple of people are still not feeling comfortable enough to us , but they're not . They need help . Like I don't know what it's like over there in in Oz . You know , in in Oz , you know in terms of the bars and how this message is getting through to people .
What's the reception like for drinks like yours in Australia ?
Speaker 1So we kicked off the category and sort of levelled up the level of drinks for a non-alcoholic menu and kind of for something to go with food and be ready to serve and make it more casual and faster , like we offer a great solution for that . It's the same in the US and it's the same in the UK as well , and I think it is about speed , feeling confident to recommend things . Also , you know a lot of non-alcoholic still spirits . Beer is beer . We won't talk about beer , but spirits it's like what do I do with it ? You know like how do I mix it , and there's a lot of training and education that needs to happen For us .
Speaker 1We kind of avoid a little bit of that because we just have something you pour in a glass and away you go and in terms of people's mindset and being afraid to ask , I don't probably see it that much here anymore in australia and just like what do you ? Got some alcoholic and they're like we got this or whatever it is . So it's very much australia . I think the the uk is the most developed . Australia is not far behind . Like every venue has a non-alcoholic menu now . So beer , wine , spirit , non-alcoholic cocktail , whatever it is , and then the us is just about to kick off , so it's all just starting over there so you think the us is still just in that kickoff phase and they're still sort of , uh , catching up , do you ?
Speaker 1I don't think they're catching up , it's just . I think it's just about to go . There's a lot of products there and a lot of things in the market and it's a very big grocery off-premise play for a lot of brands there , but I still think that the restaurants might not have had the quality that they needed um in the market to to to do something that goes with the level of service and , you know , food they pump out .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , my limited understanding of distribution in the US suggests to me that it's quite difficult over there , I think , because it seems like , again , I don't know what it's like in Australia , but here in the UK you know , if you find one or two distributors you can cover pretty much the whole of the country . You know they can get things out to various places , but I know that in the US , like , each state has a different set of rules about . You know who can import , who can export . You know it's import and export over state lines and it's quite a . It just sounds like a messy over there . I mean , what's it like in Oz ? Can you get things to ? It's a big country , right ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so you have a wholesaler here , so not too dissimilar to the UK , so you can go to that wholesale channel where you could self-distribute a few of the brands , essentially . So you just have a wholesaler that moves the boxes for you Probably not too dissimilar to the UK . So us for the UK , we have an importer and then we can be an additional wholesaler's books as well In the US . We are the importer into the US , so we produce the stock and we import it in ourselves . Because what you're saying is and you're rightly saying it is absolute fucking pain in the ass . But how it works is there's a three-tier system , but that's for alcohol . So basically it has to be an importer , a distributor and then the account . But in Texas there's four tiers .
Speaker 1In New York you're not allowed to sell non-alcoholic products If you have a spirits and wine license . You can only sell in grocery stores . So you can't buy gin and tonic in the same shop in New York . It's crazy . So that's an old prohibition law they never got rid of . In Pennsylvania the state owns all the stores . I think they've got about 550 liquor chain stores , kind of like Majestic , if you will , something like that . They've got 500 of them , but the state owns them all , so you sell it to the government . Every state's different .
Speaker 2That just sounds impossible to navigate . I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that .
Speaker 1Yeah , your company could be set up somewhere . But if your warehouse is in California and you sell to Texas , it's basically like you're exporting you don't pay any sales tax . That's all weird . You don't pay any sales tax . That's all weird , I don't understand it .
Speaker 2How bizarre , how bizarre , how bizarre .
Let's get back to yourself and to Non , but in a slightly different way . So I'm going to show those who are watching on the video will be able to see this , and then , for those who are listening , I'm going to hopefully ask Aaron to describe who are listening . I'm gonna hopefully ask aaron to uh describe . On the top of this bottle , here is a very um , simple looking uh stopper , one that I've not seen in a style before . It's got like a , a round , uh , white ball , uh , which is a semicircle on the top and just a small silver cage . Can you tell me about this stopper , because it's bloody amazing .
Speaker 1So it took me two and a half years to get it right . We've got some industrial engineers that are much smarter than me . I wasn't happy with everything that was on the market . So everything for sparkling has got a spring loading system in it or a mechanical system in it , so the tops pop off or they're not that efficient for sparkling . It's got a spring loading system in it or a mechanical system in it , so the pops , the tops , pop off or they're not that efficient .
Speaker 1If you go to the park and you open a bottle , you get home the things in the back seat of your car like it doesn't , they don't work and also they break and they're very throwaway item . I was like let's not have any moving parts in there whatsoever . So in theory it was should be simple , look simple . It was the worst decision ever . Like it had to be 0.01 of a millimeter , completely perfect , and you cut away a little bit of steel and then the rubber didn't work and it was just a nightmare . I think we went through about 20 iterations of it uh , 3d printing and all , and you name it and then I remember they call it a golden sample before you go to production . I was like here's the golden sample Awesome , fit , no scratching , great . And then Nick , our head of beverage , tipped it on its side and it leaked . I started crying , I was like fuck . I was like oh no .
Speaker 1And everyone's like . I told you it wasn't going to work . I'm like I'll show you , we'll fix this . Anyway , we fixed it . So it holds the carbonation for seven days . It outperforms any other sparkling stopper on the market . It's super simple it can lie down sideways in your fridge , won't come off , can roll around your car , take it to the park . It's a lot more versatile and there's no mechanical parts , so it can't break as well .
Speaker 2So it's just let's waste this and open it now , and by the microphone you can hear how much carbonation has been left inside .
Speaker 2So you just pull it slight from the side yeah and it's still got that pop and that's what you want , because there is nothing worse than opening a bottle of bubbles or anything sparkling and then you can't um , you can't keep it fresh , and then just to show people who are on the video , you just slide it back on and that's it . That's absolutely amazing , and can you ? We can buy that here in the uk on the website yep , yep , I bloody hope .
Speaker 1So I think the stuff is that should be online and live . I'll check that , but yeah , it should , I think it is yeah fantastic , fantastic .
Speaker 2So , speaking of the website , aaron , I know I mentioned it earlier on , um
, but I think the stopper set should be online and live . I'll check that , but yeah , it should . I think it is , yeah , fantastic , fantastic . So , speaking of the website , aaron , I know I mentioned it earlier on , but both here in the UK , at home for you in Australia and we do have a lot of listeners in America as well where do people go to find out more about your amazing drinks and to obviously buy some bottles to try .
Speaker 1So it's nonworld , same as our instagram handle , but if you're in there , if you just put that in , I don't know you're in the uk or the us and I'll go . Do you want to go to the us store or the uk store ? So don't buy from the australian store . It's a long way away from all those places and very expensive to ship . We're not paying for it . So , anyway , go to the local store .
Speaker 2Fair enough . And are you in any physical stores or are you going to be sticking with the e-commerce side of things , because I know it's a whole other ball lake really trying to get onto the shelves .
Speaker 1We're . 90% of our business is in the on and off premise . We're only 10% online . It's very small part of our business , um . So , uh , yeah , uk is it's on Dali which is online . But you know , there's some , there's some other little sort of um Dali's and stuff that are starting to pick it up now . Um , I think we're nearly there with Fortnum and Mason St Dallasford . I think we're nearly there with Fortnum and Mason St Dallas . I think Selfridges is nearly there as well . So a lot of great stuff happening there and in the US as well . So we just don't go into grocery straight away . We don't want to go into there . So we want to really support we're an independent business , so we want to support independents and , you know , give them first run at it and stuff as well , and get great restaurants too .
Speaker 2So you have to forgive me , I don't know how many , how many stores are in , but uh , yeah , it's , it feels good yeah , and that and that totally makes sense as well with a brand like yours , because it's it's when you've got these amazing flavor combinations and when you've got this unique offering , it's something that needs to be talked about as well . You know people need to experience it and get to know it , and I'm sure you know if you're in restaurants , you're in the entree , you're in bars , you know you can get the teams behind what you're doing . No-transcript .
Speaker 1No , it doesn't make a lot of sense for us at the start and we'll take our time and get it right and build a really sustainable business before we end up sort of looking at those . So we're year five in Australia and we still haven't done any major national grocery , so it's not part of our strategy right now .
Speaker 2Yeah ,
so what is next for Nonworld then ? What is you know your sort of ? Is there a five-year plan ? Is there an end goal , or are you just sort of cruising and keeping on , keeping on ?
Speaker 1goal or are you just sort of cruising and and keeping on , keeping on ? Um , we've got a couple of new products coming out , um , that are more focused , on occasion a little bit different from what I said before , like in our way , but also going , hey , we need to do a still red , like people want it . We did a , we did a collab , which is still red , and everyone's like , oh , this is what we've been looking for , this what we've been looking for . It's like all let's give the people what they want . So , anyway , we've got a still red coming out next year and another sparkling as well .
Speaker 1And then I've got about five or six other things I want to do outside of the bottle for brand building point of view , like the stopper , but very interesting ideas . Some are very interesting uh ideas . Some are probably just dumb , but I'm gonna do them anyway . Um , so , yeah , we're doing that . And then our focus is to get more distribution here in australia and start to play in national sort of liquor chains . Um , that'll be next year and then just focusing on the us and really getting that right and starting to build and develop that , and then we'll start to add additional resource and people on the ground in the US . So we've got four at the moment , so that will probably double next year . And yeah , we're working on some pretty interesting partnerships as well at the moment . So there's plenty to do .
Speaker 2That's amazing . That sounds like quite a lot . First question will that red be available in the U ?
Speaker 1well , I'm just gonna have to be , is that good ? I ?
Speaker 2think it's gonna have to be right . You heard it here first , guys . It's coming . Um , it sounds like you've got a lot of amazing plans , lots of exciting things going on and I appreciate you know you've got to uh , sort of play your cards close to your chest
this is more of a of a question we were mentioning earlier on before you've got a three-year-old um yeah you know you're building this brand .
Speaker 2You've been going for five years . You've got some more plans to expand , both within the bottle and without . How do you find the time to manage it ? All you know , because kids aren't easy , they're selfish they're smell , they're smelly . They're demanding Love . The kids Don't want to see it at school .
Speaker 1Off you go .
Speaker 2How are you putting it all together and sort of you know , keeping it on Hanging ?
Speaker 1on by a thread , hanging on by a thread . I'm not going to dress , dress it up , it's not easy , it's oh yeah , I go through like good patches and bad patches . Where I'm like I'm in the gym , there's other times I'm just like I can't even like get out of bed . Today I do , but it's just I get up at like 4 35 in the morning and I might get an hour alone for my whole day . So I was just like I'll take that , so I just have coffee and , yeah , try to try to go in the gym and I should socialize more . And I don't know , you know there's lots of things I should do and you just where , where's the hours in the day , where's it coming from , you know ? So I know you're going to make the time and all the cliches and all that sort of stuff , but I don't know where it is right now . So I don't have a good routine to share and any tips or tricks . I'm afraid I'll be truly . I'll be really honest about that no , absolutely no .
Speaker 2I asked because , um , obviously , um , people in Lolo Nation are listening to this podcast and they're looking for drinks to try , but also a lot of other founders listen and a lot of other brands and those who are starting up as well , and I myself am in the same situation . You know , I've got a five and a seven year old , and it's true , where do you find the hour and the time ? This morning I was up . I was awake about quarter to quarter six . The kids normally wake up about an hour later , and so I was just sat in bed on my laptop going right , I've got some quiet time to get some stuff done . I've got to get this done before I have to get on with the rest of the day , and it's just really bloody hard , isn't it ? Just to try and find that time , and you're right there aren't enough hours in the day .
Speaker 1Yeah well , I woke up in the morning and you know there's all the US stuff . That's been happening all day , so you've got to deal with that . And the Australian team wakes up and gets in and you're like , oh shit . And then the UK kicks off later on in the afternoon and you're like oh , this is relentless .
Speaker 2They're just coming at you from all sides , yeah .
Speaker 1You know , you've got big dreams . You've got to just spend the time to do it , I suppose . So just go for it .
Speaker 2True , true . Well , speaking of spending the time and doing something for yourself
, it's time for my last question , please , aaron . So first of all , thank you very much for joining me today . It has been awesome chatting to you .
Speaker 1Thank you for having me . I appreciate it .
Speaker 2You're more than welcome . Before you go , the last question is my barbecue question . So it is . I don't know what the weather is like in Australia at the moment .
Speaker 1As I said over here , it's a bit crappy . It's awesome today yeah , awesome today .
Speaker 2So there will be barbecues up and down the land , no doubt , um , on days when you might be relaxing and you're off to a mate's house to have a barbie and you're bringing something to drink with you and you don't feel like drinking alcohol that day , other than the amazing , amazing range of non-wines , what other low nut-no or light drinks do you tend to enjoy when you're not drinking alcohol ?
Speaker 1So you can't get it here but you can get it in the UK and I hope Imi brings it over . The Petivo , I think , is probably right up there as one of the best . We're the same distributor in Singapore . So I had the original formulation . I was like , oh , it's pretty cool . And then I met up with Emi when I was in the UK in March and had it properly and I was like this shit's good . So , anyway , emi , get Bativa over to Australia . So I really like that and I'm really interested to try Ben's new product , the Silver , as well he's just about to release . So they're probably the two or one I haven't had . But I reckon I'd take Petivo out . I actually had a straight barbecue for Christmas and I had some Petivo and I actually took it out . In the street People are like , oh , it's cool , it's interesting . So I think that's a really good barbecue drink , that imperative style nice , nice .
Speaker 2And what about um ? Something maybe for the australian listeners um out there , because I have very little um experience with the , the australian lono market . What sort of um , what what's hitting big or really enjoyable out there at the moment ?
Speaker 1Everyone's pretty much drinks heaps of normal , which is a non-alcoholic beer , which is which I don't want to say too much , but you might be able to have it soon . So , yeah , so , anyway , everyone's drinking that non-alcohol beer . I think everyone really wants Skinner Zero here as well , but we can't get that either . We have it in cans but it's always sold out . It's not like proper on draft , but you can't get non-alcohol beer on draft here because we run our beer systems way colder than the UK do . So there's no alcohol , so it freezes on the way out , so we can't have beer on tap . Yeah , for non-alcohol it has to be in a can . So there's that . Yeah , it's a little bit slim kickings here in Australia . And my other favourite is the guys who are closest to us . But , muri , they're from Copenhagen . M-u-r-i Murray's , a dead set legend , and I owned it and yeah , that's it . They're doing such a good job for the category . So they're not here , but they're in Singapore . So , again , same distributor as us . So anyway , big shout out to Mario , my man . He's good .
Speaker 2Amazing , amazing . Those are some fantastic recommendations and I've learned some new things that I didn't know about the beer system in Australia , because I know that you have to keep yours cold because you're a lot warmer than we are over here , but I didn't know that it meant that there was no way to have alcohol-free beers on draft . So business opportunity for somebody out there to come up with a system that the australians , uh , will allow to have that be on draft , because it's a big thing , like people want a pint of of non-alcohol on draft . It's one of the things I hear all the time .
Speaker 1Um , yeah , so if you look at the beer tap systems in the uk , our ones are like frosted over , they're like got ice on them , they're really cold . That's when I noticed it . I was like , oh , that's why you get on draft here .
Speaker 2So yeah , there you go , aaron . Thank you so much . You have been a pleasure to speak to . You've shared a lot of insight and so much enthusiasm , and I genuinely love your drinks and will be keeping an eye out for .