Sober Curious, Mindful & Alcohol-Free Drinkers Podcast: Low No Drinker

#92. Laura Silverman’s Zero Proof Nation: “Turning my mess into my message”

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 92

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Laura Silverman is the founder of Zero Proof Nation, a global platform connecting low and no-drinks & drinkers worldwide. Nearly 18 years sober, Laura’s LinkedIn profile describes her as "the nexus of NA" – a title she's earned through her tireless work building community and resources for the alcohol-free movement, including the most comprehensive global map of booze-free bars and bottle shops.

0:00 Meeting Laura Silverman
2:21 Different worlds, one nation!
3:20 Laura's story: Hospitalised twice by 24
13:10 First steps to building Zero Proof Nation
16:39 What is Zero Proof Nation
28:24 The changing range in non-alc
31:12 Wines Laura loves
35:02 Partnering with All The Bitter
40:38 Finding Laura & Booze Free in DC
44:25 The BBQ-Q

zeroproofnation.com
boozefreeindc.com
zeroproofnation.substack.com

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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low no Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the low, no and light alcohol revolution.

Speaker 1:

Nearly 18 years sober, laura Silverman's LinkedIn profile describes her as the nexus of NA and she is most definitely all about connection. Despite being oceans apart, I had the pleasure of meeting Laura earlier last year whilst we were both on the non-alcohol judging circuit, and she was as lovely in person as she was when she first reached out out the blue to say let's have a meet up for a virtual coffee, and since then I'm very pleased to list her as one of my friends in this space. She is the founder of Zero Proof Nation, a global coming together of low and no brands, and she's also the founder of Booze Free in DC, which is a digital hub of AF knowledge for her hometown. She's got about 16,000 other things that she does as well, and I finally found somebody who is busier than I am, and today we're going to talk about the passion that she has for non-alcoholic beverages and why she's chosen to share that with the world in such a wonderful way. So thank you very much for joining me, laura.

Speaker 1:

Lovely to have you? How are you doing today?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, denise, what an intro. I am so warm and fuzzy inside. Thank you so much for having me, and I feel the exact same way about you. I think you are busier than me, though, but I'm just. I'm thrilled to be here, because you know, I have zero proof. Nation, you've got low. No nation. We're separated by an ocean or a pond, as some say, but I feel like with the two of us, we are just. I mean, there's so many amazing people in this industry that I'm also blessed to call friends and have as friends, so we really are part of a movement now, and I know you just asked me how I'm doing. I went right in, I'm doing great, it's.

Speaker 1:

Friday it's.

Speaker 2:

Friday and I'm looking forward to a weekend, and I always remember Maggie Smith from Downton Abbey as the Dowager Countess. She would say what is a weekend? Because she just every day was a weekend for her. It's become an inside joke with my parents. But yeah, I'm doing well and so excited to be here. Denise, Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Oh well, thank you for joining me. It's been a long time in the coming and I'm glad we're getting a chance to have a chat, because you and I both have a passion for the non-alcoholic drinks industry and I like that. We've come together, as you say, from different sides. We both have a nation that we're trying to reach, but it's not just our country. We're globalizing the term.

Speaker 2:

It's a greater nation of peoples who are interested in these drinks and this lifestyle. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's great because between us you and I we come at things from a different angle. We have had a different journey to get to where we are, but we both have the same mission and I think we're a really good example not to toot our own horns of how this world is full of such different people with different stories and different backgrounds, but we can come together and create something amazing. So for those in my audience who haven't yet had the pleasure of coming across the wonderful Laura Silverman and knowing your story, tell us what was the adventure that led you to where you are now with your amazing platforms.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to have to rewind a bit and then fast forward a bit, because we don't have a ton of time and I'm basically zipping through over 20 years of what's in the making. But essentially I got into some heavy drinking in college and I didn't drink at all in high school, as a matter of fact, I really had no interest in it. But I had some undiagnosed mental health things that were going on that I've talked about quite publicly on my own platform. So it's not that I'm embarrassed to say anything, but I had some undiagnosed things that I didn't realize at the time. But when I got to college I was self-medicating. It was fun for a while, though I mean, you know I didn't immediately have a problem and you know I was a college student. I did all the things that the college kids did, but by the end of college it had gotten progressively worse and then after the two, two years after graduation, it got very, very bad, where I got hospitalized for alcohol poisoning twice, um, by the ripe old age of 24. I mean, I just turned 24 with my second hospitalization and um, and I just I knew I couldn't continue drinking quote unquote safely. You know, now we have all these, this scientific evidence that there really isn't a truly safe amount. I mean it is, it is a drug, but there's so many other drugs out there that you know sugar is is addictive and there's a lot of things.

Speaker 2:

But essentially I knew that I couldn't keep drinking alcohol in any kind of regulated manner. There was no sober curiosity or mindful drinking movement then, and there certainly weren't any non-alcoholic drinks that even if I was interested, that I could latch onto as a potential, that, even if I was interested, that I could latch on to as a potential lifeline. So I couldn't keep drinking. But I also, seeing sort of what I've just described, that there was no real landscape for any kind of alcohol-free or mindful drinking culture. I didn't really see a way that I could have fun without alcohol. Because in 2007, it was saying it being society, you drink to have fun and if you don't drink you're not fun. That's basically the landscape I was coming into. So it's been my, my mission and I am very loud and proud about my sobriety.

Speaker 2:

So so I got I, I, I sought professional help in 2007. I knew enough about what I was going through that I had some things that I needed professional help with. I didn't want to think I was an alcoholic and I don't think that I don't subscribe to that kind of language. Um, but I I also didn't want to think in terms of forever, because that just felt like a life sentence and that was just too much for me. Um, I needed to clean things up, so to speak, for now.

Speaker 2:

And for now kept extending and kept extending, and I enjoyed not having hangovers, I enjoyed just being able to have clear memories of what I did or didn't do, because in the beginning I didn't do a lot of things to remember, I just nursed my early sobriety and hung out with my parents a lot. But more and more time passed and I really enjoyed it. You don't have to edit that out, this is pure, laura. I really enjoyed this newfound sense of clearheadedness and calm that I had. Of course, I was still really young and I was still coming into myself, I was still growing up, so I found that I enjoyed not drinking alcohol, but I knew there was a clear gap. I recognized it then and I started to really recognize it, as I was comfortable in my sobriety and was going out a lot more and wanted options when other people were drinking alcohol.

Speaker 2:

But I noticed that even in the beginning, there just wasn't anything worth having. I drank a lot of Diet Coke, a lot of club soda and lime and just a lot of you know fountain drink uh, like you know the fountain gun drinks. It just wasn't fun. And, of course, even if you asked for um, you know club soda with lime and a splash of crayon, they would give it to you in in some, uh, kitty cup. So it's like, immediately you're outed for not having a quote-unquote adult beverage. So all this is to say is that I've had a lot of years, a lot of time, to rally in my own neighborhood, in my own state, but also beyond that, for non-alcoholic options. I certainly, please don't think anyone listening that I'm like claiming to have started a movement Absolutely not. But I do think that I'm one of the people who was there at the very beginning and has certainly helped to advance this movement, because you can't have a movement with one person or two people or three people. It has to really catch. So from 2007 until about 2017, I was just knocking on a lot of figurative doors telling people I was sober, so that you know they they wouldn't give me any alcohol by mistake and you know making a lot of just basic, basic, basic drinks at home or, you know, asking for basic stuff out in the world At around 2017 is when I started to notice or 2016, rather, when I started to notice that there were a handful of options.

Speaker 2:

I think I first saw a bottle of seed lip at an anthropology, which I don't know if they have those in the UK, but it's yeah, it's like a big sort of fun clothing store. That's like a concept store. It's very yes, and they've got like a lot of like. They have a beautiful plant section and so the bottles of anthropology I haven't had coffee at everyone. The bottles of seed lip at anthropology would be like, you know, in the plant and botanical section, because it's sort of, you know, is a is a botanical distillate and the first non-alcoholic spirit that I think ever was. Thank you Ben Branson, who I met last year. That was so exciting for me. I visited him in King's Crossing and so there were a handful of beverages. I mean, this was back in the day, 2017. Athletic Brewing was still a craft beer brewery in Connecticut. No one really knew much about them.

Speaker 2:

I mean, it was just the nascent, nascent time in our, in our sort of alcohol-free womb, so to speak, like we were still. We were still like getting ourselves together before the birth but around 2019, and and meanwhile I had started an alternative recovery, alternative sobriety blog called the Sobriety Collective, where I wanted to find people like me who were not into a 12-step kind of way of recovering and that had been part of my early sobriety, because it was the only thing that there was. But I found that I really, early on into it, I wanted to just like graduate from that. I wanted to level up my life, I wanted to be social and I didn't want to limit my life to just one tiny part of the world and one tiny community in the world, although it's I guess it's not so tiny, but it felt very. It felt small. It felt small the longer I was in it and I just for me it was. It served a wonderful purpose in the beginning of my journey, and then I was ready for more, but no one was talking about what was on the other side of 12 step, and so I started this community, this blog. It wasn't a program and it it. I never intended it on being one, but I wanted to.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to find people who understood what it was like, who maybe had some kind of a story that brought them to being alcohol free or substance free, and and I didn't want to limit any she hadn't written Sober Curious. Yet. She wrote a book called I think it was like Material Girl Mystical World or vice versa, but she talks a lot about being booze free or drinking less, and so I interviewed her. I interviewed Tawny Lara. I interviewed her, I interviewed Tani Lara, I interviewed Chris Marshall a lot of people in the States, sure, but also there were some folks on the other side of the world. I interviewed some people in Australia, and I wanted to interview people who were proud of their journeys and use their full names. I didn't want to hide behind any kind of cloak and dagger of anonymity. That wasn't my thing, and it laid the groundwork for what would become Zero Proof Nation.

Speaker 2:

Because in 2019, as a creative with ADHD and after like four years of having this blog, I was ready for the next creative endeavor and I was definitely by then noticing okay, there's more than a handful of non-alcoholic beverages. The pandemic hadn't happened yet, so it wasn't like it was still early days, but I think I could count. You know, maybe brands for two hands rather than one, and I was like you know what I think I want to do. I didn't actively like put this into words, but I was like I think I want to basically do what I did for the sobriety collective but for the non-alcoholic beverage movement, or what was becoming one, and so I launched in fall of 2019 and, aptly, ruby Warrington was my first feature and she shared some of her favorite beverages and it became a platform and is a platform to share stories of people in the space beverages brands, places and still is, and it's expanded so much.

Speaker 2:

But it's kind of hard to wrap all of that up in a tight little, neat bow. It's entirely possible I would have come to the table of mindful drinking or sober curiosity in my 30s, in my early 40s, at some point, if that hadn't been my previous journey, because that's what a lot of my peer group is doing now. They're drinking less and I love that. But I do fully believe that my story and my history led me to where I am today and I'm so grateful that I could as my aunt says, my Aunt Linda says I turn my mess into my message, and I think that's where I am right now, fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Well, no, it's your life. You know it's very hard to condense your life story into just bullet points, isn't it? And it all adds to where you are now, what you've chosen to do and what drives you so I love. As we mentioned before, this is Zero Proof Nation. And what drives you so I love, as we mentioned before, this is Zero Proof Nation. Your website, which we'll give everybody a link to, is an amazing resource, one of the first resources that I came across, but I was blown away by the fact that you did decide to go global with it. What was it so? Well, first of all, tell us what we can find on the website, what it does. Obviously, this podcast has a big passion about drinks. What was it that led you to put the map that you have and so much emphasis on the global low and low drinking movement, rather than just your neck of the woods, because it's easy to do where you are? So why go global?

Speaker 2:

Well, there's a couple of things to unpack there, and let me just start with a quick overview of what people can expect to find when they go to ZeroProofNationcom. So, like I said before or maybe I didn't actually say what it was when I was interviewing people in the beginning stages but it started out as an Instagram feed and a super tiny beverage directory. There weren't that many categories, so it was just kind of like a few things like beers and wines and spirits, and I think that was about it, and there were still only a handful per category, and it then expanded to a very robust beverage directory. Of course, it's. None of the things that I put out into the world are ever going to be fully comprehensive, because there's constant innovation and it's so exciting to see constant innovation, constant opening up of places. It's just impossible to track as a human in real time. But we do our damnedest, don't we, denise? We do. There's a lot real time, but we do our damnedest, don't we, denise? We do, but there's a lot. So it started out as the Instagram where I was interviewing people in the space, like Ruby Warrington, like Chris Marshall and beverage founders.

Speaker 2:

In the very beginning stages I had some beverage founders up my sleeve that I reached out to, really wondering why they started a non-alcoholic beverage company when at the time, it was more profitable to go with alcohol. We've seen the tides turn. We're seeing the tides turn, but it was very unusual to see that, and so I wanted to hear their whys. And everyone had a different why, and there weren't any non-alcoholic bottle shops then to have like meet the makers series and to get to know the brands behind the shelves, and so, um, that sort of leads me to the next thing that you can find on Zero Proof Nation, which is a directory of non-alcoholic bottle shops, which again did not exist when I started the platform. It's a direct uh by-product of the pandemic and what and what came out of that.

Speaker 2:

And that started out as just the states, or just like this one long scrolling thing that included everything. I don't, I don't, I think it was just the states, and then I realized it was. It was such a long scrolling thing I had to divide it into US and the world, and then I would do a little flag emojis, it into US and the world, and then I would do little flag emojis for where in the world, and then it was just too much to just keep scrolling because we know that there are so many bottle shops and bars. And I did the same thing for booze-free bars. When I started it was Sands Bar in Austin, texas, listen Bar as a pop-up in New York City and at the time Redemption Bar in London was an alcohol-free bar. They've expanded to being a full ABV, low ABV, no ABV menu from the last I checked. But those were the three there. So not really a lot for a directory, but you got to start somewhere. And then those directories just kept expanding and expanding and expanding to the point where I said what would this look like if we put all of these logos Cause they were all logos that were clickable and direct directed people to the, to the websites of whatever bottle shops or bars I had on there? What would it look like if these were pins on a map? I wanted to visualize it myself. I wanted to see what was out there and in I've been doing this exercise spoiler alert, I'm working on a book proposal and I'll get to that later.

Speaker 2:

But in doing some of the writing exercises about why I wanted to do what I did, I realized that my upbringing as a diplomat's daughter where I grew up all over the world, really informed a lot of how I think about the world and how I see that there's obviously so much beyond just my borders, and I don't even mean my country, but some people never leave the state that they live in. Some people never even live the county that they live in, and it's the same for any part of the world. There are people that just never leave where they're from, and that's okay. But I knew from my upbringing that there was a bigger world out there and I'm interested in cultures, I'm interested in languages and cuisines and what makes people tick of all walks of life. And so, having lived in in what makes people tick of all of all walks of life, and and so, having lived in, I lived in Latin America, peru, nicaragua and El Salvador, so I speak Spanish still somewhat fluently I lived in the States for only four years and then I lived in Egypt for four years and and so I realized you know in hindsight, in retrospect, that the global map really was sort of a tip of the hat to my upbringing.

Speaker 2:

I was always fascinated by maps and atlases and all of that, so it just kind of was a natural next step for me, not even realizing that it was, that it was and that started, I mean, really, for the first year of that map was all my own research, painstaking hours of just finding. I mean, I went through terms and conditions for some of these websites to find, like, where their warehouse was based, like where the shipping regulations, like I wanted to get. I wanted to differentiate this from any other type of Google map that I had seen which just had a pin for a place and it, you know it had the link to the, to the website, but I wanted there to be information. So I have a website, I have an Instagram and I have a blurb per shop, per bar, per whatever is on there that I would write. And then it got to be where.

Speaker 2:

I just needed to crowdsource this. I needed people to submit their own things, I needed people to submit their favorite places. But the other differentiating factor is that most Google Maps depend on physical locations to have any kind of pin in there, because again, you're pulling a Google profile, a Google business profile that has a physical location and I wanted to sort of visualize in the best way that I could where the e-commerce bottle shops were, where the pop-ups and mobile mixologists were. So you know, you've got over on your side of the world. You've got Wise Bartender, who's quite the robust e-commerce platform. There's no physical shop that you can go to not that I know of, but they definitely deserve to be on the map. So, you know, I wanted to have categories that you wouldn't normally find on any kind of map so that it put it, put places physically on the map that had a geographic base, but not necessarily a physical location. And yeah, I mean I think this year certainly I'll reach 200,000 views. I'm at 176 or 177,000 right now and it's been pretty organic. I'm a one woman shop, much like you. I know you have a team that contributes and I've contributed a couple of articles over the years, but you know we still do a ton on our own and, yeah, we'll see what the next steps are.

Speaker 2:

I definitely want it to be more real time. I don't want to build an app, because there are apps that I use that I love like better without. You know, johnny Stevens built something amazing. I know he's not as involved in the app anymore, but he, he's. He's quite the visionary too. And then there's buzz cut um, which is an American app that that has a lot of um, a lot of great information too. So for me it's always been about seeing the map on a bit of a larger screen, so to speak. Um, and then, what else can you find? I don't even know. Industry news I forgot.

Speaker 1:

There's so much, there's so much and I think you know you've got industry news, you've got books, there's podcasts, there's public.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, directories of magazines yeah, magazines and podcasts and directories yeah, sure, yeah, I think you've done something Thank you Correct reason.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sure, yeah Well, I think you've done something. It's amazing when you think that you did this all by yourself, because there's so much there's. So you know. When you started, yeah, it was quite easy, and now you're right. You know the explosion in online retailers, e-commerce, physical shops, bars, the opening of them, the closing of them, the relocations of some of yes, um and and the new producers. Every week there is new products coming out, which is fantastic, but it's a lot to to. It could be quite overwhelming. Yes, looking at it all um and I think the map is fantastic because people often ask me.

Speaker 1:

One question I get from people a lot is how do I continue to drink low and no, or continue to be sober, curious or mindful when I'm on holiday? And it's really good for me to be able to send them to a resource that says well, actually you can have a look at this map and it can show you places that you could go to that have venues nearby, that can facilitate the way you want to holiday or vacation.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely In combination with Better Without. I think we touch a lot of the things, because I know that Better Without is started out really as like a hospitality finder, I think, or I think that's what please forgive me, johnny, if you, if you ever hear this, um, I think it was where you can find um brands that were on menus and places and um, that's something that that, uh, is very difficult to to track if you don't have some kind of like API that talks to every single brand store finders, and so that's another differentiating factor. I was like well, johnny does this so well. There are other apps that are doing that so well. What can I do a little differently that plays nicely with others, that plays well and compliments those apps that exist.

Speaker 2:

So I think there are multiple tools people can use when they're on vacation, or when they're in their hometown, or when they just move somewhere, or if they have a friend who's like well, I'm visiting and I don't drink, what can you have for me or where can we go. So, especially with the shops, but the booze-free bar and the booze-free pop-up bar concept, I mean that is huge right now as well, and big props to Millie Gooch on your side of the pond. I love Sober Girl Society. I love everything that she's built. One of my dreams is still to go to a Sober Girl Society event, a Sober Girl Society event. But you know, that's. That's another pop-up thing that is very robust. And if, if there wasn't a category for pop-ups or mobile mixologists, how you know, how might someone who is not a London, a Londoner like, find that out? So that's another one of my motivations behind some categories that might not normally get typical map love.

Speaker 1:

It's amazing, it really is. Let's talk a little bit about you. Know you've been doing this for a while. You've been. You said beforehand that you're not claiming that you started a movement, but you've most certainly been integral in the help to grow it, integral in the help to grow it. So you've seen a lot. I know we've spoken before and you have given me a digital tour of the vast amount of drinks that you have in your abode, so you tasted a lot and obviously we met on the judging circuit.

Speaker 2:

So you know, you've tasted.

Speaker 1:

Your opinion is considered when it comes to these drinks. What have you seen in terms of the development over the last few years that excites you in the low-no space and, conversely, what have you seen that you think we need to work a little bit harder on?

Speaker 2:

Such a great question and when I reflect, you know I'm often seen as a cheerleader of the movement, and I am, and I also have taste buds and not everything. I don't love everything, but I do love a lot and I certainly like even more. So there's a lot of improvement that I've seen for sure, not just within liquids themselves, but within expansion of categories and subcategories, and I think we're at the stage now where you get top shelf, you know mid-range and rail type beverages in the non-alcohol space. You're getting a wider range of quality and a wider range of price points too for people who can afford to splurge on a big, you know beautiful bottle of something, and then for people who want to keep it lower cost. Lower cost doesn't always mean lower quality, but sometimes it can mean that lower quality but sometimes it can mean that. So I think what I've seen, I mean there's just been so much innovation and it's hard to even quantify because, again, like I, I'm sure I wasn't aware of every single brand that existed back in 2019, but I was only aware of like 10. And now I think there's in the thousands. There certainly are, if not in the thousands, then approaching there, but yeah, I'm loving brands like Muri, like, uh, murie, um. I think there are a lot of like interesting tea beverages that are that are out there that are quite fascinating and good, as like wine alternatives.

Speaker 2:

I think we've seen a lot of innovation in wine, um non-alcoholic wine over over the years and um, it's, it's easier to do I'm not saying it's easy, but it's easier to do a sparkling wine. Well, because the bubbles can often um, the bubbles can often enhance what some it's always good to me, but what some might not appreciate about a non-alcoholic wine and what bubbles can do. You know, it brings that liquid to life, it gives it some effervescence. So, when it comes to still wines, like still whites, rosés and reds especially, it's been harder for people to get those right and I think that they're really starting to nail still wines and there are a lot of brands out there that are, I think, ahead of the curve in that Um, zeronimo is doing a fantastic job with their, with their wines, and they've got um out of Austria and they've got um, some some like higher price points and some mid price points and um, and they have um, uh, a Rhone Blanc, um, the grapes are like Marsan grapes, so they're originally like French grapes, um, and I never tasted anything like that before and what I enjoyed was that there was like a little bit of a lift to it, even though it wasn't spark, sparkling it was still, but it had almost like a wink of effervescence and I quite enjoyed that.

Speaker 2:

I'm a huge beer fan. I absolutely love craft and a beer and I think it's certainly having a heyday right now. But I mean the biggest thing that is just like exploding everywhere is functional beverages and quote plant based THC beverages and I mean I don't know if it's like that in the UK, but it's just like exploding in the States with functional both like adaptogens, mushrooms, nootropics, all of that. And then there's a lot of like low dose and then maybe higher dose THC beverages. So those are certainly exploding right now. I like prebiotic sodas. I think they're a fun sort of soda alternative and there's a lot of those that are. I mean there's just tons and I think the functional stuff is is growing over here as well.

Speaker 1:

We don't get the the thc stuff, so over over here in the uk it's still a no-no for thc, but we are getting some of the cbd uh yes, okay are getting more popular over here, but they're not as well understood in the uk because the way that our laws are around it haven't relaxed as much as as many states in the US. Yeah, it's become more. There's more education about it on your side, so I'm really intrigued to see how that's going to take over here and how it's going to pick up, because everyone's loving functional and there's a lot of questions and queries and growth, particularly with people who are looking for something that can give them a little bit extra, a little bit of a buzz, but without giving them any of that alcoholic consequences.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Well you've got an interesting brand over there, sensha Spirits. Yes, that is doing. I think I tasted a little bit. I'm told that. I tasted a little bit in the. I think I tasted a little bit. I'm told that I tasted a little bit in the in Wafa last year. Okay, um, but that's like that's doing a whole different thing. Uh, that's quite interesting.

Speaker 2:

And also I see behind you you've got Pathfinder, which is one of my favorites and can be considered a functional, uh, functional beverage as well. Um, that's I have faith. Okay, um, that's I have. Okay, I love every. I mean, I don't love everything I love so much, but I have a few. I have a few favorites and I would be totally remiss if I didn't, if I didn't like plug one of my own sort of products collaborations, that is stems out of my just like fandom of this particular brand.

Speaker 2:

But, um, all the Bitter is an alcohol-free bitters company. That is just absolutely fantastic. They started out doing sort of the classic cocktail bitters like Angostura and Orange and Peixodes and those kinds of things, but completely alcohol-free. And then they branched out to do some some more interesting um, limited edition uh flavors and limited edition um sort of um concepts. And then I'm, you know, I I became friends with the founders, ian and Carly, in the very beginning um of the pandemic and, over over time, of just being one of their biggest fans, cause I absolutely love their product, share it with like everyone I can think of, I said, well, what if we did something together? And what if we did something that could potentially benefit the movement, especially the indie players? So we spent about a year conceptualizing, designing, tasting and eventually launching the All the Bitter and Zero Proof Nation Cherry Coffee, blast decaf coffee, where it's only available at non-alcoholic bottle shops and on all the bidders website.

Speaker 2:

You won't find it in big box retail, you won't find it on Amazon. As a matter of fact, all the bidder just take, took their products off of Amazon. Um, for a variety of reasons, and I certainly won't speak for them, but I think they were finding that for them, they weren't getting the greatest customer service there. And um, ultimately they were just like, well, we're a non-alcoholic bottle shop now, because they opened up their own shop and tasting room in Chico, california. They said, well, let's, let's practice what we preach, and um, and they took their products off of Amazon.

Speaker 2:

But so this particular uh skew, this particular bitter. You can only find it at non-alcoholic bottle shops and most of them at the independent producers, so it's a way to drive physical traffic into these shops. That's wonderful, and there's a QR code on the back to my map so that people can find a shop near them where they could. I mean, if they already have the bottle, maybe they bought it off of all the bidders website and then they can find a shop near them. Yeah, how do people enjoy it.

Speaker 1:

Then Tell me some some amazing ways that you can use your. Well, let me just keep it simple.

Speaker 2:

Let me just keep it simple because I don't believe I am a mixologist, although I've created a couple of fun things. It's hard to like a coffee soda, so as easy as you want to make it, you can just put a liberal amount of the bitters in club soda or seltzer or in tonic water and I love using the Fever Tree Refreshingly Light tonic. I think it's just perfect that way and I don't think you have to get super fancy. But of course you can do espresso martinis. You can do. You know it plays really well with Pathfinder, any of the Amaros, it goes nicely in. And I think you can get a little creative and add like a splash of citrus as well a splash of citrus as well. I recently had a cold brew shandy at a coffee shop and it was like half cold brew, half lemonade and I couldn't believe how good it was. I was like this doesn't make sense. I'm just curious to try it and it was fantastic. So I would say in that regard to anyone who is listening and wants to play experiment put things together that might not seem to go together. You might find a masterpiece in it, but you also might find that it's like not servable to other humans, and that's the fun of it too. It's like just find something. It might work, it might not work, but there's a lot of.

Speaker 2:

I think this whole movement sort of lends itself nicely to playfulness, community experimentation. We're still in the beginning stages. It feels like, you know, you've been doing this for a while too, denise, and it feels like, wow, we have like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of brands, we've got so many places, we've got so many people, but we're still at the beginning and I think there's still a lot out there that has yet to be discovered and has yet to be. You know, there's another sort of element of hospitality that we're, that we're, I think, scratching the surface on, like cruise lines, airlines, hotels, mini bars, like there's still a lot to be done. Um, so there's, there's, there's more work out there. Um, and I don't mean like paid work, although I would love some paid work but um, I mean just like the people's work of getting these beverages to the hands of the masses. Um, yeah, so that's, that's exciting, and there's, there's definitely still more to do.

Speaker 1:

There is, there is, um. I'm conscious that I know I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I've got two more questions for you. Yes, please. The first and most important is we've spoken a lot about your site. I know you've mentioned it. You've also got another site, which is your Boost, free in DC.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it doesn't get much love, it's quite neglected yeah, it doesn't get much love, quite neglected.

Speaker 1:

Well, why don't we rectify that? If you could tell lono nation where they can go to find out more about all the amazing things that you've been up to and how they can connect with you?

Speaker 2:

sure. Well, if you ever find yourself wanting to visit washington dc and right now I don't know who would want that Cringe I have this website that Denise mentioned called boozefreeindccom, and it's really a hyperlocal travel guide, a guide for travelers and locals to explore the Washington DC metro area, which includes parts of Virginia, parts of Maryland. I live in Maryland from a non-al. I live in Maryland from a non-alcoholic perspective, from a wellness-based perspective, and I actually did update the site yesterday and I need to. I need to make a post about that because I added new bottle shops that have opened in the DC area and I've added some other bars and places to buy NA products that didn't exist before. So it's great for finding places that serve NA on the menu. It's great for finding where you can buy locally non-alcoholic products.

Speaker 2:

There's some other stuff. There's some interviews with folks that are local, who are booze-free or allies of the movement, and it's still a pretty accurate representation of what's out there, even though, truth be told, it's very due for some more updates. But we have there's a brand new booze booze free gay bar that opened in DC and I think it's the only one in the country right now um that to have a completely alcohol-free gay bar. It's called Spark Social, and, um, we also have binge bar. That's been around for a couple of years.

Speaker 2:

Uh, some bottle shops, so it's. It's a way for people to find what's in their backyard if they live here or if they're traveling for conference or tourism, which people are still doing. They can find non-alcohol that way. And then, yeah, so I'm on Instagram, linkedin, all the things. I think Denise has already if you're listening to this, she's already put links in the, in the captions and in all of the things. But, um, zero Proof Nation and Booze Free in DC are my websites. They, they have their Instagrams. My personal one is that we are sober, um, and I don't post as much on LinkedIn as I used to, but I still, uh, am active-ish on LinkedIn. I love connecting with other brands and tastemakers that way. Yeah, just keep your eyes and ears out for new things. I can't say exactly what or when, but I'm always working on something.

Speaker 1:

We shall watch this space with excitement and anticipation.

Speaker 2:

Well, it might be a while.

Speaker 1:

It's time for my final question. I ask everybody who comes on the show because I believe in spreading the love across the lands for all of the amazing low noah light drinks that are out there and the people who want to enjoy them.

Speaker 1:

So the weather is turning, it's getting warmer, uh, despite any other things that might be going on, people are coming together to spend time with their friends and family and have a great time, and it is barbecue season is coming upon us. So, yes, imagine you're off to a wonderful barbecue with some wonderful friends and you're bringing along some amazing low no drinks to enjoy the day Now, of course, of course you're going to have a bottle of your all the bitters, cherry blast, sure, to make some lovely, lovely, long drinks. But other than your own, what other drinks do you enjoy for a barbecue in the lono space?

Speaker 2:

when I think of barbecue, I immediately think of beer, and I love, I love na beer. Right now I'm just it's having a movement. I noticed Biro, behind you. I had the pleasure and privilege of tasting some at the Mindful Drinking Fest, which is an annual fest in DC. I love athletic and I love that. You can find them everywhere, so, and they sometimes have some pilot brews that are interesting to try. So if all else fails, I can grab a can of a case of like what's my favorite. I like the Cerveza Athletica and I like their limited pilot brews too, but brands that might not necessarily be everywhere or that people are just discovering.

Speaker 2:

I absolutely love Go Brewing. They're out of Chicago and they've grown quite a lot. They've got national and I don't know if international distribution yet, but they've certainly got national now and they've got some really great things, including sours. They do a lot of sours, so, like raspberry, blueberry, they do IPAs really well. I'm looking at my bar area right now. Oh, yes, there's a brand out of Canada that just sent their sort of newer cans to me. They're one for the road brewing and they have some exquisite NA beers that are low in calories too, so I'm loving them right now. I just had their stout and their Saskaberry blonde. Not together, but knowing me, I would mix everything together. You could give it a try.

Speaker 2:

I'm also a huge spritz girl. I love spritzes and so you know I love sort of like the. You know, direct replacement for like an would make a spritz. For anyone who asked is Wilderton Aperitivo Company's citrus aperitivo and making a citrus spritz out of that, and it's incredible. I actually just reviewed it on my sub stack. Oh, you can find me on sub stack as well. Denise will have the link. I'm enjoying doing some, some reviews every now and then of products that I'm loving. I will tell people products that I don't like, but that's more of. I don't want to. I don't want to like put anyone on blast for things that I don't like. But if I'm, you know, lukewarm about something, something there's good parts. I want to be honest in my reviews.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, you have to be you have to be honest, but thing you know yeah, it's as long as I think.

Speaker 1:

When I think, when people ask, you know, is this good or is this bad? You're like well, for me personally, I don't like those flavors exactly somebody else might like it.

Speaker 2:

That's exactly it that's exactly it, because we Because we all have unique taste buds and we have different tastes. I know that you and I have talked about, like, some of the things that you're more interested in versus others, and I think there's something for everyone, and some people gravitate towards more sugary things, some people gravitate towards more bitter things, some people like to try a bunch of everything. So there's certainly a lot. I would I would definitely bring more to the barbecue, if there's there's still a minute or two for me to. I love. I think a sparkling wine would do really well at a barbecue. It's nice and refreshing, and I am loving a brand out of the uk called bole bole, bole. Please tell me how to pronounce that. Bole bole. Yeah, it's so interesting in that it's like twice fermented and it it's, and I had it in a really interesting way at mindful drinking fest. It was in a cocktail, so it's like a sparkling wine cocktail, but just a flute of that um, so, so refreshing, that's a great sort of, you know, cheers type, uh, celebratory beverage. Um, that's very, very good. And then I think, if, if I have friends that are watching what they eat, watching what they drink, um, and wanting something super low to no calorie and no sugar.

Speaker 2:

There's a brand called Hoplark over here that is one of the first to sort of pioneer the hop water and hop tea movement and they do a lot of really great pilot brews as well. One of their um pilots right now is like um, a blood orange, um, black decaf black tea. Um, it's, it's really good, and um, and I love hop teas and hop waters. So I think that's a small sample of what I might bring with me. Um, and I just have to say I don't know if everyone agrees or disagrees, but I think stouts can be year round. So fight me on that, but it doesn't just have to be a winter beer, it's. For me it's year round. So but I think for the Go Brewing one, I would bring their grapefruit IPA. It's very summery, it's so good, and I'll make sure to let you know what I mentioned so that you can pop those recs in the in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Definitely, that's an amazing list. That's it. It's fantastic, and I love that you've covered both sides of the pond sides of the pond there so everybody can try something. Absolutely. I'm really intrigued to find out more about hot waters. I think that they could be coming into a moment soon and they're great. If you're a beer lover but you want to take away the alcohol and you want something really refreshing, then these are.

Speaker 2:

It's a fantastic new category that I think is going to do some really interesting stuff over the next couple yeah, watch that space because hop waters are also having having a moment now and they're so healthy, so so they are they.

Speaker 1:

I like them, laura it has been fantastic speaking to you. You are a ball of energy, your enthusiasm is tangible and I think you've done some amazing work in helping to bring the low-no movement to life to lots of people around the globe and supporting them in their choices to drink less for whatever reason, for whatever length of time. So keep up the amazing work and thank you for joining me today, my lovely.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, denise. I love everything you're doing too, and thank you everyone for listening. I can't wait to connect with you.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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