Mindful Drinking & Moderation in Midlife: Low No Drinker Podcast

#98. Lyre’s: The Honest Truth

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 98

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This week, I'm joined by Anita Osborne, the Sales and Marketing Manager for Lyre's Spirit Co. in the EU and UK. Anita takes us behind the scenes of one of the most successful global alcohol-free brands, sharing the highs and lows of building a business that spans over 60 territories. 

From launching with an ambitious 12 spirits (including an alcohol-free absinthe!) to navigating supply chain nightmares, pirate attacks on the Suez Canal, and strategic downsizing, Anita doesn't hold back about what it really takes to survive in this space. 

We explore Lyre's "your drink, your way" philosophy, why they're moving away from sober-specific marketing, and why it's OK that non-alcoholic spirits will never taste exactly like their alcoholic counterparts.


0:00 The Lyre's Story
6:45 Our changing attitudes in hospitality
9:57 The Lyre's range: Why is it so big?!
17:22 Lyre's RTDs
21:30 A global concern
32:34 Bridging the moderation gap
41:06 Not a like-for-like
46:07 Still fiercely independent
51:36 The BBQ-Q

LYRES.COM  //  @LYRESSPIRITCO

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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low-No Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the low, no and light alcohol revolution.

Speaker 1:

Today it's so nice to be able to have a chat on this podcast with somebody that I've become to get closer to in my time in this space and throughout that time, this, this lovely lady, anita Osborne, has been such a positive and supportive influence on me and on the Lono Drinker platform. Anita is the sales and marketing manager for the EU and UK at Liars, and Liars is well. They're liars with countless different alcohol free spirits, ready to drink cans and their own sparkling wine. I genuinely struggle to think of a brand in this space who have done it bigger than Liars Spirit Co. They are available in multiple territories for countless occasions. So today I've invited Anita on to have a chat with me about the story of Liars, about the journey that the brand has taken to get to where they are, a peek into just what it takes to become a leading global alcohol free drinks brand and the fact that it might not have been all sunshine and rainbows along the way. So I'm very, very glad to have my friend, anita here today. How are you, my lovely?

Speaker 2:

I'm good. Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. I feel it's been a long time coming.

Speaker 1:

It has. It has. And it was my mistake, because I remember the email that I sent you to invite you. The subject line was why haven't I asked you yet? And here we are, we're here. We're here. Better late than never. Exactly exactly. So I always start, anita, by asking my guests to share a bit of their origin story. Now, obviously, you were not one of the founding members of Liars, but I know that you know their history as well as anyone and better than most. So would you mind taking us back a little bit and let's start at the beginning, in terms of how Liars came to be, and then I'd also love to know how you came to be part of the Liars family.

Speaker 2:

Certainly well to go back to the beginning, as a rewind of seven, eight years could go back even further from that. So we did launch six years ago, but our co-founders, mark Living and Carl Hartman. They were buddies back in back in their first job out of school and then went on to respect respected careers in their own field and regrouped all these years later to discover the real lack of no and low options. And when you're busy, life is life takes you on many different directions, health and fitness conscious as well, traveling a lot, um, but the desire to be able to have your drink your way just wasn't there for for no and low options. So they came back together and worked with uh, the wonderful david murphy, who's our flavor, had the best title in the business, flavor architect. So Murph's still based down in Sydney, carl is still out in Australia, mark is now in Amsterdam. And all those years ago coming together to create a delicious liquid that was without compromise, a sophisticated spirit that paid homage to the world's most loved spirits to be able to create as many cocktails as possible. So that was kind of where it all started, without compromise. So all of our range is vegan friendly, allergen free, gluten free, but all about the flavor, and that's a real credit to Mark Carl and, of course, murph in creating this liquid. But I'm sure we can get into a little bit more of that later on. So, as I said, we launched six years ago. This July we came to the UK it was around the September time so we're distributed by Proof Drinks in the UK and it's been a wild and adventurous journey ever since then.

Speaker 2:

I came on board, coming up four years ago now, and like many people in the hospitality industry, it was. I don't think my story is too dissimilar to what we often hear about. My career had always been in hospitality, on trade, went on to work for a wine merchant and then a global champagne and premium spirits company, and certainly pre-COVID. I realized that in my job there was a lot of consumption, the feeling that I always had to have a flute or a cocktail in hand, and then also, you know, being a being, a bubbly character I'm not a, you know, do like to be part of the social engagements and and saying no is not usually in my vocabulary so that always naturally leads itself to perhaps not the best relationship with alcohol and then having to function the next day. Those, those things don't go hand in hand. It was also at a time that I was really getting into the gym and cycling Don't get me started on cycling. For anyone that knows me, that's another podcast about road bikes but obviously that doesn't all lean itself kindly to one another when you're out entertaining and boozing the night before.

Speaker 2:

Covid, of course, hit and I think for many people that was such a reset and for me it really made me look and assess my own values and my relationship with alcohol. And what was next and a big thing for me was to be able to move into a role where I could bring my account management experience and love for the industry and hospitality, but with something more of purpose that was more in line to my values. So, in terms of like liars, I very much sit in the category of a switcher moderator. Um, low abv is definitely my, my preferred and that's where liars really sung to me.

Speaker 2:

And then, despite the very diluted accent, being Australian myself, there was something about coming home when the opportunity came to work for Liars. So, being an Australian founded company, it's where our name comes from, so in the Liarbird named after the Liarbird, which, if anybody has heard me talk about liars. Before is a fantastic, incredible bird mimics. All sounds, uh, both natural and man-made, and that kind of really starts to paint a picture on what, um, what we're trying to create with our, with our, with our products, whether that be the spirits sparking or ready to drink cans excellent, excellent, and yeah, there's so much there.

Speaker 1:

There's so much that I think one of the reasons why we get on so well is our backgrounds are very similar. You know that, that hospitality lifestyle, that understanding that it is a space where, whilst it's changing now it is, it's about booze, right, and so your job? I always used to say, um, my job was to get people drunk, because that was how you sort of approached it, you know, in terms of serving people and like recommending drinks. And when I was working in the hospital, it was never about recommending an alcohol-free drink, it was always about recommending booze. And the times when people did come into the bar to say, you know, I'm representing this brand. You know, would you be interested in this? I can say now, with with sadness I was representing this brand. You know, would you be interested in this? I can say now, with sadness, I was so dismissive of it because you just didn't think about it then did you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And I think the beauty of the industry now is that, whilst there's still a bit of work to do, the beauty of it in that we're moving so much more towards and about being the sense of occasion, the moment, moment, and it's irrespective of what's in your glass, whether it's alcohol, no, or low and coming.

Speaker 2:

Coming back again to that sense of connection and community, and I even recently was thinking about, um, my time in the on trade and where that somebody asked me how I ended up getting into working for a wine merchant. And I think back to my on trade days and and really critically, look at myself that I was that manager, that it was like, oh, what's Anita's secret stash of wine coming out on a Saturday night and it'd be like Anita's wine club to finish the shift and I'm like that was not OK and but that's an industry where that was condoned. But I think this is where it's exciting now, where those moments can now be enjoying a beverage, um, and it'd be what you would like and that's certainly what we're all about at Liars is it doesn't matter what's in your glass, if it's a, if a sparkling wine or a cocktail, it's your drink, your choice, your way absolutely.

Speaker 1:

You know, things would have been so different, wouldn't they? So many shifts you can think about, like if it was as cool as it is now to just go yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have this alcohol-free beer. It's been handcrafted and it's got. You know these hops. You know the way people talk about craft beer. They remember that movement that was like huge for years and and now it's like. You know the history of this spirit and the history of this and putting it all together and now people are having those conversations about alcohol free and and liars has been a huge, huge part of that. So I want to talk about we'll stick with the hospitality side of things because I'd love to talk about the range. For those of you who are watching on YouTube, you'll see behind me I have a small selection of the liars range.

Speaker 2:

Um yeah, there's, there's six spirits. I'm trying, I'm trying to remember which ones are missing so I've got behind me six spirits.

Speaker 1:

I've got two, uh, rtd, so that's ready to drink cans. I've got their sparkling wine, but your excuse me, your, your range is is eye-wateringly, uh, phenomenal, in terms of you know how many different skews that you've got out there. So, first of all, can you tell low, no nation. Um, it's all right if you can't list them all, I feel like I'm being crazy now, but okay, you're going to get marks at the end. What is in the Liars range? What is it made of and, honestly, why is it so bloody big?

Speaker 2:

Excellent question. So the range when we launched was 12 spirits.

Speaker 1:

So you launched with 12?.

Speaker 2:

We launched with 12.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

That then grew. At one point, not long after I started, our whole portfolio was up to 24 globally um 24 products, which is wild, and that's very much for the the founding belief of being able to create as many possible cocktails as possible, cocktails in a non-alcoholic format as possible, and like. One I think is a really great example is we had an absinthe which was such a curious.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was one of those like when people, when I would say to people I was working for lies, and particularly bartenders, were like, oh my gosh, can I try the absinthe? Why have you got an absinthe, why not? And it was certainly those kind of curiosity skews but what nobody else was doing and the ambition from the beginning to be the world's most loved and most awarded and in order to do that was to be able to create as many serves as possible and in order to do that, you need a variety of skews to be able to do that. But, needless to say, there's challenges with that and we certainly had to refocus over the years in terms of what is going to benefit the longevity of lies and as part of the category as well, and as anyone in no and low, particularly the production side, minimum order requirements, and it's a perishable good. So, particularly those early conversations where people would be excited about absinthe and it was like, honestly, it was amazing, uh.

Speaker 2:

But then I would certainly stand there and be ask the question of see that alcoholic absinthe on your back bar, how long has that been there for? And people would be like, well, oh gosh, probably about a year. Haven't got it down for about four months. It's like excellent. So once you open your liars absinthe, we've got a shelf life of three months.

Speaker 2:

How is that going to work? We can put it on a cocktail, we can support with training, but ultimately, at the end of the day, it is perishable and we're only going to see small numbers in terms of volume. And whilst it's lovely and a desire to be able to create as many options as possible, it also needs to be a sustainable business model. So hence where we are back down to a more respectable number now. So, thinking of what you've got on your shelves there so wonderful, wonderful products to be able to create a huge amount of cocktails and ones that can be used interchangeably. So, for example, our dry london and our white cane uh, we don't have a vodka based um spirit, but we use that white cane and the dry london interchangeably, that's that one there um, and then we've also got a dark cane.

Speaker 2:

So I mean, the cane spirits are a great example of we also, we used to have a third one, spiced cane, whereas now we just have white and dark cane. And so to be able to use those interchangeably, uh, to be able to to enjoy those lovely carotene cocktails, um, and then for things like the italian bitters, vermouths so again, we used to have a white and a red vermouth, we now just have our aperitif rosso, uh, so we've both got that one, that one there, and which is delicious, that's up there as our most awarded, but I'm sure we can come back to that one. And then all the way to the more bitter style spirits. So our Italian Spritz, italian Orange and the Agave is very much one of my favourites. And then the liqueurs. So an Amaretti coffee original, those kind of cocktails to be able to more digest, more than after dinner serves, I should say not digestive, but, uh, after dinner serves. So very much those, those that are synonymous with making everybody's favourite cocktails.

Speaker 1:

And there are so many cocktails that can be made. I love your website. Apart from the fact that it's absolutely stunning, it really is one of the most beautiful drinks websites available. You guys aren't shy at sharing with people how they can use these and I love that the cocktails, the recipes, are not gated. You don't have to subscribe, you don't have to give your email address is you can go along and just and also with the drinks it says you know how you can use this and you can find lots of recipes.

Speaker 1:

Because I think, for people at home because obviously the the entree side of things, there's a different type of support and training that you need to provide but for the at-home consumer who gets a bottle, you know, a lot of people don't often know what to do with a bottle of spirits, whether it be alcohol free or alcohol after just pouring it out and you know, adding some tonic or some lemonade. Um, but actually being able to make a really nice, simple cocktail at home, I think is really important for people and I kind of go back to the minute you put cocktail, I think, I think, for for at home.

Speaker 2:

It can be really daunting and it's like no can have. You got ice, we've got tonic. You can make a non-alcoholic gnt. Um, let's get some garnish in there, let's amplify flavor, let's layer it up like a chef would create a dish, and that the finishing touches with salt and pepper, um, approaching a cocktail in the same way at home, but essentially having a mixed drink. Anybody can create that at home. And I think for us as a brand, it's all about making things accessible and and that adults can have sophisticated, delicious choices, no matter what that, no matter what that is, and then, of course, to have the freedom and flexibility to go into more creative serves. So, so, particularly for the, for the on trade, but ultimately it's it's making the no and low category is available to everybody, no matter what your drink of choice is.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. And speaking of cocktails, of course you have also your RTDs. Now I've explained in an episode before that RTD stands for you're ready to drinks and and I love an RTD. I'm a big fan. So I used to be a cocktail bartender many moons ago. I've slung more than my fair share of mojitos. I could make any cocktail that anyone would ask for, but that was a really long time ago now. You know, I live my very nice homely life and I and I like a drink, but I can't be bothered. I can't be bothered to get the ice out, to cut the garnishes to, you know, shake and everything. So I love it when I can just get a drink in a can that's made for me and someone else does all the work, and you guys have brought out, um, some rtd cans that make that really easy for people. So what is in the ready to drink range for those that want something easy drinking?

Speaker 2:

so we have our classico, which is the same, so we've both got a bottle of the classico, so our non-alcoholic sparkling wine, and that's the same liquid that goes into bottle. And can. We've got our amalfi spritz, so it's named after. Yes, there we go, our classico sparkling wine. It's so delicious, so delicious, so tasty, and the spritz, or our amalfi spritz, which is as a serve, is our most popular globally. And then it's ready to drink. Can is is certainly so delicious. Just just imagine a big wine glass full of ice, big wedge of orange and then, preferably, some sunshine. Um, you know, you could be swept away to being being being down on the italian coast somewhere. And then we have our g and t, which is that blue can behind you as well. Yep, the gin and tonic. Now, as, like you denise, I'm, I can make a cocktail. I'm not the. If anyone that's worked worked with me my entree days, I'll probably laugh like I mean, I'm not the best, um, but I can make a palatable drink, I think.

Speaker 2:

Um, it's not my forte, but I can certainly make a drink, but the g and t cans are exactly what I always have in the fridge. They are my go-to from our range. That's my drink of choice and having those in the fridge is just so handy. And it doesn't even have to be complicated, of course, like if we're in an event kind of situation and festivals, which we've got a couple of things coming up over this summer pop a straw in there.

Speaker 2:

Good to to go. But what I like at home is is create it's all about that that ritual of having a drink, um, and that it's refreshing and tasty and delicious but also looks the part and the rtd cans can do that as well just having a glass ice, and I'm so. I'm even lazy when it comes to my citrus as well, because, let's be honest, um, you can have half a lime sitting in the fridge before it turns. Yeah, if you're anything like me, I just gotta get through it. So I've always got pre-cut stuff in the freezer, so pink grapefruit, lemons, oranges and limes, and so popping just straight from the freezer, popping that in the drink and give it a couple of minutes and you'll. You'll start to get some of that juice out of there and all that delicious added fructose, because obviously anything that's going to help amplify flavor, not having ethanol and we're low in sugar as well. So all of that helps bring out those lovely juniper character in the, in the, in the gmt, as well that's a great tip.

Speaker 1:

I love that. So have your slice, you know your, your sliced citrus, your limes, your grapefruits, all that stuff, just freeze it and then you pop it in your drinks and not only does it help keep your drink nice and cold, but as it defrosts, it adds flavor in there.

Speaker 2:

That is a fantastic tip I'm like more where that came from, really, um then with, with, um, our rtd. So some some of you uh listening or watching, might have seen that in other regions. For us, so, as we've mentioned, we are global, uh, still very much an independent company, which, which, which I think is a credit to the team present and past, but globally, you might have seen on some of our social media that we've got another RTD can, so we've got the Margarita, which is launched in America and Australia, so they've got the US produced Margarita RTDs in the US and that will come to the UK, or eu and uk in the next couple of months as well fantastic, because I'm a margarita girl and I was annoyed.

Speaker 2:

I want one I might be able to source. Source some there.

Speaker 1:

We go there we go, but that must be quite a challenge. Okay, so you are a global brand, so how many different territories are you in?

Speaker 2:

So we're just over 60. Wow, that's huge it is, and we were in more. We've just been rationalizing the SKU or refocusing the SKU selection. We had to do that as well with the markets that we were in, and I think it's interesting when I'm talking about lives in the UK. I think sometimes it's forgotten that we are a global company. We are massive in Australia and the US and particularly in Europe. You know, in Europe alone, we're in nearly 20 countries across Europe, particularly in Europe. You know in Europe alone, we're in nearly 20 countries across Europe.

Speaker 2:

And in order to facilitate that logistics supply chain it doesn't happen overnight and it's very costly, and so we very much had to double down in recent, particularly the last 12 months, and really look at supporting those countries where we can meet minimum order requirement but also where the growth is there. So very much part of my job I sit in a bit of a chameleon role, a hybrid role between supporting in a trade, marketing capacity and sales for markets such as UK, france, netherlands, ireland, but also in the countries in the EU that are more needing support in developing the category still, and that's where it's really interesting. It's not you can't paint it all with one brush as well, where every single country is in its own place of growth and development and requirements that they need from the brand to be able to support not just say liars, but the category as a whole. So we had to make some really tough decisions over the years. So we're now just tracking it about just about 60. Just 60.

Speaker 1:

No, I'm glad you brought that up and thank you for being so candid about that, because you know people often see a large brand that has a global reach or that has made it to supermarkets or that is very synonymous with bars.

Speaker 1:

You can find it sort of ubiquitous, as yours is, and assumes that it's all rainbows and sunshines, as I mentioned in the introduction. Rainbows and sunshines, as I mentioned in the introduction. But it's not right, because delivering quality product over multiple territories I mean just that alone has to come with a wealth of challenges and difficulties and then keeping up with market changes and desires and different countries have different cultures who have different ways of drinking and even different flavor palettes. So I mean, how do you manage sort of saying this is where the company needs to grow and this is where we need to go and this is how we're going to help people in that region? I mean, I realize that's a broad question. We're going to help people in that region. I mean I realize that's a broad question, but in terms of knowing where to take a company like Liars going forward, what do you look at to see where you want to focus your energies and attentions?

Speaker 2:

I think that's where we're a prime example of a business that has had to be agile and evolve. Certainly when we launched six years ago that ambition to be everywhere, no matter where you are in the world, you can get a Lyres, and that enthusiasm and drive and passion is so inspiring and captivating to be around. But then you do have to balance that out on what is possible and the longevity of a brand, and this is where I look at. This is where I find the category so exciting, because so many of the ones that we've grown to, so many of the brands that we've come to know and love has gone on their own journey and the ones that have, um, have been in the marketplace before us and then grown slowly, slowly, incrementally, is a huge testament to be able to do that. And we kind of went the other way around. We went out massive and big and have had to go through that period of change over the last year or two, and that's just a case of having to refocus, realign and make decisions that are going to benefit the longevity of the brand. So I just kind of see it as we've just gone the opposite way around, which has had many learnings along the way and the biggest thing for us has been particularly what has been critical for us in this region of the world was production has been critical for us in this region of the world was production. And so we're now produced in Australia, the US, america sorry, australia US and the EU. And then we have our Classico Grande produced in the UK, and that's massive for us because up until two years ago a lot was still being freighted from australia. We did have uk production that went into administration and then obviously, if anyone knows what that's like to deal with, it was uh, it, it was certainly interesting, but uh, resilience prevailed. And now we're with a fantastic partner in the Netherlands that produces all of our EU stock and then once we've once we were able to get the liquid bang on perfect again. So Murph, who's is, like I mentioned earlier, flavor architect and still based in Sydney. He's going to be over in September, so hopefully we can we can organize some get-togethers with Murph.

Speaker 2:

Um is making sure the liquid's right. And then the evolution of that was changing packaging, and I can see you've still got some. You've got one of the older the, the older bottles um there as well, but take, for example, um, the three that I have behind me here. So these are all of our refresco new produced netherlands stock. So we've got fully recyclable closures. Lightweight glass um, the carbon footprint on that alone has been phenomenal. And a commit commitment to uh to do the very best we can to ensure, ensure, uh, continued delicious cocktails. And then I guess the other talking point to that is the Classico Grande. So, as I mentioned, that's produced in the UK, out of Kingsland, which is just up in Manchester, and that will be the next evolution, or certainly the next piece of the puzzle that we'll see in the UK is that we'll be going into a bottle refresh. The look shouldn't change too much at the moment, but it's very much by end of year. We'll go into lightweight glass on that, on that as well, and then reducing supply and logistics as well.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, all of this has been going on behind the scenes, because up until that we were, we were juggling a number of of of headwinds. Uh, it was actually really funny. It was, there was, there was a moment, um, it would have been about 18 months ago, and we're like nothing else, nothing else can happen. Now we're like it's smooth sailing. And then it was when the we had a shipment on its way over from Australia and there was the challenges on the Suez Canal, and I remember having a conversation with one of my colleagues and he was like pirates, pirates, of course. Pirates, pirates why didn't we think it out, pirates? So we've had to go through a lot, but it means that where we are coming into mid-wave 2025 in the strongest position that I feel like we've ever been with a business under new leadership from our new CEO, david Gimpleson, so very strategic, laser focus, all about supporting our distribution partners and, in turn, making sure that as many people go back to that ambition of as many people being able to enjoy delicious cocktails without compromise.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. And now, of course, you have a contingency plan for pirate attacks, pandemics, uh, alien, uh, descendings.

Speaker 2:

You know you're gonna be prepared, anita, you never know, oh I think I'd probably, I think I'd probably cry Someone's like yeah, aliens, I'm like nope, I'm out Tap it out.

Speaker 1:

That's it. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

That's the final straw.

Speaker 2:

It's certainly been exciting, but more than anything else, the people behind it and when I get to catch up with someone like yourself, there's this sense of community within Know and Know. That is so. This, this sense of community within no and no, that is so that really helps, helps reaffirm why, why we talk about with such passion, enthusiasm, these, these brands I say brands because, um, there is so many wonderful products available and how exciting that is and that ultimately giving giving people choice for whatever reason, that they're looking for no and no, whether it's for someone like myself, moderating or working. You know we've been the spirits partner with ACU Alcohol Change UK for four years now and really seeing the impact and how that helps people within the no and no community if having choices like this and for a plethora of reasons. So you know we're very much still here. We are not going anywhere.

Speaker 1:

Of course, it's exciting times ahead, indeed, indeed. So it's interesting you say that, then. So Liars isn't necessarily targeting sober people with its marketing, its positioning. Who is it for? Who is the person that should be enjoying a bottle of liars?

Speaker 2:

Anybody who wants a cocktail with. I just go back to that. The original vision and mission by Mark and Carl was your drink, your way, and that moving away and I'm seeing so many other brands that are changing the dialogue as well that it's can we be moving away from. Why? And just it's your drink, irrespective of why. So, whether it be because your choices are for sober, uh, for health reasons. Mental health is a big one. We all know the impacts of alcohol consumption on mental health, sleep, physical, physical health, but ultimately, at the end of the day, as an adult, why should there be a reason? So anybody who's looking to enjoy something, and whether that be a Lyres or another, no or no brand out there, we're here for it.

Speaker 1:

I see a lot of brands actually moving away from that sober marketing piece, in that a lot of them are not dissociating themselves with sobriety, but saying that we are not made for sober people for times only. We are made for times when alcohol isn't wanted or required or seen as a necessity. I personally quite like that approach. You know, those who have listened to the show for a long time will know that I'm not anti-alcohol. I'm fortunate enough to come at this space not from a sobriety or recovery position. I think that brands are trying to reach people where they are, yes, but that's difficult, right? Because the message to sober people is very clear there's no alcohol. You know whether, whether, whether someone takes a strong stance against that, or just this is for those who never drink. But when you're reaching out to people who are perhaps somewhere in the middle, um, surely that makes a role like yours quite difficult. So how do I communicate that message?

Speaker 2:

how do we, how do we bridge the gap, how do we please and connect everybody? And I think there's and we, we touched on this very briefly before we started rolling uh that sense of community and and engaging and connecting, and that's something that's really dear to my dear to my heart and making sure that nobody feels judged or excluded, whether it is from a sobriety, no or low, or no or low space, and how, as a brand, all of us achieve that. And it is difficult, I think we, because when we launched we were always open that we could mix lies with alcohol to create low ABV. And I think this is where it's really exciting that, particularly going out in the entree, that's starting to see a. I was, I was, I was in a venue last Thursday night and it was one of those beautiful menus where the whole menu had the ABV on it oh, wow oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Speaker 2:

That's a shout out to Lab 22 in Cardiff, if anyone knows okay um, incredible, incredible, uh cocktails.

Speaker 2:

They've always been certainly at the fore with their non-alcoholic cocktails as well. But looking at a menu where there's actually the choice based on abv and then as brands, how do we help support that as well? And I think that's just the next evolution of the category. And then you put into the mix the aptogenic range, which is which is the, the, the brands out there. You know, one comes to mind which is amazing, like Smiling Wolf, and how that's going to impact what gives people choice.

Speaker 2:

And I think it's always going to be a sensitive topic on whether we're talking specifically to sobriety recovery or those just looking for choice, to sobriety recovery or those just looking for choice. But ultimately, for us as a brand, as as an adult, it is entirely up to you and, um, I even think back to my uh champagne days and the number of times that I'd have sparkling wine in my glass. And it's not for hiding or or being deceitful to those around me. At the end of the day, what I have in my glass is none of anyone else's business and I kind of feel like as a, as a no and no brand it's. I mean, maybe that's more of the aussiness coming out of me, but, um, that I I hope we can get to a space where people can really feel like that and that and that brands can communicate in the way that, with sensitivity and kindness and authenticity, I think is key.

Speaker 1:

I'm 100 percent with you. I mean, the Aussies and the Brits have a lot in common, so maybe that's why we're all on the same page here. But absolutely one it is none of anybody else's business what you choose to drink or why you choose to drink it, and I like that. I like that you mentioned before that you know you have positioned lies and that, uh, it can be used if you want to mix this with alcohol, which is a great thing for bars as well, to be able to make menus, like you mentioned, for lab 22 in Cardiff, and shout out to you guys, I've got to go and check it, I won't go there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no plans to go to Wales.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna have to our time, you're gonna have to take me out on the town, um, so they can arrange that absolutely. I think that's absolutely fantastic that someone can go into a venue and look at that and go. You know what? What are my requirements tonight? Regardless of what those reasons are, and to be able to look at a menu and say, right, I'm gonna have a margarita. And for someone to say that full strength, mid-strength or alcohol free. I mean that that's living the dream, that's the choice that we want, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

and that's certainly a communication that we had from the beginning. Um. To think back six years ago, you know the, the no and no options were limited, and I know that that's something that you've discussed at length on the podcast as well. And to to think back to you know the, the founding um, you know, I think I think and hold in such high regard the seat, like seedlet, for example, and what that did for the category and um coming and to think back at a time then that could.

Speaker 2:

Then, when liars came along, there was little out there to be able to create choice and, and I mean I'm not I've never been a beer drinker, for example, but I mean I even remember before starting at liars and be like what other non-alcoholic beer options out there, and it was just Bex Blue, and now think this plethora of delicious alternatives. But to go back to when we started, and it was a, you know, a real lack of spirit options in the know and low, and it was. We never were started to be a competitor to to others. It's all about creating options, and I think of one, serve in particular, so a negroni, which is just all about the booze and and for us as a brand.

Speaker 2:

You can have it completely non-alcoholic using our dry London Italian orange and our aperitif rosso. You can have it in a low ABV by swapping any of those elements out, and I think when communicating about what lies is all about, that's a prime example of that. We we never were speaking solely to just sobriety or moderating. No and no, it's all about whatever you would like to have in the glass, and I think for me, like Negroni on a personal level, is a perfect example. Like I love a Negroni, the flavor of a Negroni, but I really don't like the booziness of it. So for me to be able to order a low ABV Negroni out is such a joy and to think you know, to think six plus years ago that that wasn't even an option is just like it's wild absolutely wild.

Speaker 1:

I'm with you, not on the Negroni. I famously said many times before I think it's the worst drink that's ever been made. But that's a personal thing. But I'm with you because my favorite cocktail, my favorite full strength cocktail, is an old-fashioned, so it's the same thing, you know. It's just, it's basically booze in a glass and to be able to find alternatives that can make something that has that depth of flavor, that character, that adultness, to it uh, that's, that's what you're looking for, that's, that's what's needed.

Speaker 1:

Um, and yes, it's going to taste slightly different. It's not going to be exactly the same drink because it's not exactly the same liquid. I mean, it's it's. It's one of those people, things, isn't it that people say you know, oh well, it doesn't taste exactly like this full strength. You must get that quite a lot yes you know what do you say to people when, when they say, well, it's not exactly the same oh gosh, where do I start?

Speaker 2:

right, I feel like I'm all of my sleep right. Let's go for it anita is assuming the position she's ready to attack.

Speaker 2:

No, I'm so, I think. I think there's long been a misconception that non-alcoholic spirits are a like for like. We've always talked about lies. It's about paying homage to the world's most loved spirits and mimicking almost kind of creates this false illusion that it's going to be like it's fake booze and that's something that we've never tried to be. It's all about creating that flavor profile and again, to use the, the Negroni example is if anybody's tried, you know, if anyone has had a neat, I'm like wary. I don't want to say the brand names, but if you think the Italian bitter that goes into a.

Speaker 2:

Negroni that starts with C, I mean mean that packs a punch. It puts hairs on your chest. It's a massive. Now how could anybody try and recreate that bold, deep blood orange flavor in a non-alcoholic format when you don't have ethanol and for us that we're low in sugar and they're the two biggest caries of flavor? And I use that as an example of where it's all about creating that flavor profile.

Speaker 2:

So when murph was creating all of our liquids, it was about looking at what was considered the global leader, um sommelier by trade. So think about the systematic tasting of wine looking at the color, the nose, the aroma, the flavor, and then building that back up with all those plant-based extracts, essences and distillates. So it's all about that flavor profile that then goes on to create that delicious or the example that you've given as well, that you know, an old-fashioned. So as soon as people kind of step away in building a cocktail, that's going to be a like for like. It's about that flavor profile and and that all-important experience as well. So, yeah, I think that's a but then there's. So this is, this is where it's so exciting, because there's now more and more things becoming available and I don't want to. I know you're going to ask me a question at the end and I don't want to jump forward, but there's, there's, there's, there's particular things that are now available on the market that are really packing such a punch in non-alcoholic cocktails, and that's what's exciting.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, we will come back to that. I am conscious that I could speak to you all day, Elita, so I'm going to ask you my last few few questions, but one cheeky question that I didn't say that I was going to ask you before Do you have a favourite in the Liars range, or are you not allowed to say Is it like you know? Kids you're not supposed to say.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can't say which is your favourite. You know I honestly I go between. I think I'm quite a seasonal person in terms of what I enjoy to to consume. Uh, like I mentioned earlier, the gnt is always in my fridge. That is an all year round go-to for me. Uh, the agave blanco, uh the agave blanco.

Speaker 2:

I like that one too yeah, yeah, this is a sealed bottle, but there's one on my shelf which is definitely not sealed, so sorry, supply chain. Yes, I need to order some more of that soon. Um, but the agave is a paloma, but then that goes back into the. I love a margarita, but for me to be able to enjoy or make drinks for friends, to be able to create that at home, so simply with, uh, some grapefruit soda and a wedge of pink grapefruit, is absolutely little, little, little little pinch of salt. Um, is absolutely delicious. So that's kind of my that's. That's, that's very much my summary summary. Go-to um. I then, in the cooler months, I, I was gosh this was a number of years ago, but it was actually a bartender that suggested that amaretti as a highball with cranberry juice and I was like what really? And that firm like, if you think of all of those christmasy flavors like, um, that marzipan, almond, vanilla, clementine, cranberries, oh my gosh, it's absolutely delicious.

Speaker 2:

So yeah I'm very when it comes to my favorites in, in our, in our range that's one to try.

Speaker 1:

I wouldn't have put those, I wouldn't have put cranberry juice with it. But okay, trust me all right.

Speaker 2:

All right, I mean, you can't beat a spritz as well but no, there's, there's, definitely there's. That, I think, maybe more than anything else it's. It highlights that there's plenty of choice, no matter, no matter what you, what your vibe is amazing.

Speaker 1:

I think you've covered this my next sort of uh, general question in everything that you said. But is there anything that that listeners need to know about liars that you think is is gets missed, or or that that people don't fully appreciate? Or the other way you can answer this question is what's next from lions?

Speaker 2:

I'll let you choose which of those you'd like to answer I I feel, I feel we've, I feel I've been quite transparent over our chat that it probably comes as no surprise after the few years that we've had that stability and consistency is very much something that is of importance now and just delivering on what we've always set out to to achieve in in having availability of liars for wherever you are, um, for whatever your drink of choice is. So having some consistency and stability with that is certainly very much how this year is evolving and welcoming those new additions to that I touched on in the portfolio. So the Margarita RTDs coming to the EU and the UK You'll see later in the year the Mojito RTD and the Pink London Spritz, which will launch in other markets first. So there are some new things on the horizon. To go back to your first question on what people get surprised, I think in a world of gaining share of voice is quite challenging, and I think one thing that does get missed about LIAS is that we remain an independent business, that we are global, that maintaining that independence is so important.

Speaker 2:

We don't have any backers. It's, you know, there's not. It's not an open checkbook. We have to be a profitable business and in order to do that means that there are some strategic tough decisions to be made, but that is because we have a board of directors that we need to answer to, and, being an independent company in a world where only the very smallest or the very biggest seem to survive but kind of sit in a little bit in the middle, um and yeah to. So, needless to say, with that independence comes, comes a an open door policy. That's certainly for for anybody, certainly listening to this. If there's anything within the uk that is, uh, that you'd like to have your voice heard and what you'd like to see or not see by lies, then absolutely hit me up. I'm sure you'll be able to reach out on all the usual places when this does go live, but please do reach out. We are humans behind the brand and very much looking to continue to change the way the world drinks.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for sharing that, because I think it's it's that that's a really valid and notable point for people to understand that, as as far reaching as the brand is, you are independent and and you know there isn't a a vc backer. They're just pouring money into what you're doing and that actually, when you have to make decisions such as downsizing the amount of territories that you're in or, you know, stopping production of a SKU like the absinthe, because actually it's not a viable product for you as a business long term, that there are real people making these decisions in order to keep a business alive that is reaching and serving and helping so so many people. I will absolutely put everything in the show notes for people. If they want to go and find out more about what's going on, what's coming out, perhaps get on your newsletter to hear about when these new SKUs will hit the UK or the US. Where's the best place for people to go and also, of course, to buy some liars.

Speaker 2:

So wwwliarscouk is where you can find all. If you can certainly subscribe, get all the up-to-date news on what's happening in the wonderful world of liars If you follow us on all our social media as well. So instagram, linkedin, tiktok, uh, all those usual places that we can be found, um to purchase in the uk. We're very much uh available in most of your favorite bars, um restaurants, hotels, and if we're not, if we're not in your local, then hit me up. Uh, absolutely find me, and I will move heaven and earth to make that happen. Uh, and if you're looking in the, if you are listening from the uk, so a cardo you can purchase, purchase the liars range through a cardo. We've recently just gone live with our agave blanco with a cardo as well, so that's now another one that you'll be able to put add to your weekly shop, uh, should that be the case.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, and, and I gotta say to be honest, um, low, no nation. You'd be hard pressed not to be able to find a bottle of liars. I mean, they are ubiquitous, and but for very good reason. So you know, hats off to, to you and and to the whole team, for for what you've achieved and will continue to to do, for low donation to enable them to drink, as you say, their drink, their way. I think it's wonderful. Um, you alluded to my final question and it is time now for that barbecue question. So, as you said, the weather is heating up, although at the time of recording today, it looks like it might rain. But we're going to ignore that. We're going to ignore that, anita. We're going to focus on the sunshine. You're bringing the Aussie sunshine, yeah, to the conversation today. So you are off to a mate's house, uh, to have a barbecue. I'm not going to do the throw a shrimp on a barbie accent.

Speaker 1:

Thing. I'm sure by now you've heard that far too many times um, but you are like no, it's fine, it's fine.

Speaker 2:

I am someone very once upon a time endearingly said I'm a pseudo ozzy, in that I have a very diluted accent, I'm terrible fear of spiders, don't understand cricket and I'm rubbish at cooking a barbecue. So, needless to say, at this barbecue I might be the ozdy, but I'll bring. I'll bring the delicious, non-out choices.

Speaker 1:

I won't be cooking the barbecue sounds like your oddy card's being revoked. Are you allowed back into the country now? Okay, so what are you then? What I obviously, obviously goes without saying, uh, particularly some of the rtds, but several, several options from the Liars range will be first and foremost in your, in your basket. But what else do you like to enjoy in the low-no or light space for a sunny barbecue day?

Speaker 2:

oh so my, my team are probably really tired of hearing me bang on about this.

Speaker 2:

We've had lots of conversation about sparkling wine and, and I find it really exciting in the uk because I think there is a huge amount of choices and the quality is just like I've got, like I'm getting all excited.

Speaker 2:

Um, just that, it's just, it's just wonderful to see the quality improve so much when it comes, when it comes to no and low drinks, and particularly something like sparkling wines, and I have been sharing with my colleagues how much I love LA brewery, english blush, um, sparkling and. But this also goes back to for well, for a number of reasons, when I even my life life prior to Liars I was very much of the belief that corks were put into takeout and not waiting for a special occasion or that birthday or that. You know it's, it's enjoy the company that you're with. And I think that there's so many beautiful liquids that's on the market now and brands that are giving adults the ability to have those sense of celebration and even if it's not a celebration, it's just like you know what it's a moment enjoying a bottle with somebody you care about absolutely so twofold.

Speaker 2:

So that's, uh, the first time I tried it was very dear to me, um, and that sense of um, I guess, um, sentimental, um, joy that bring that a product reminds you of. But more than anything else, I was a bit slow to the party with kombucha style sparklings and it was the one that I tried. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is really interesting and it's nuanced and it's delicate, but moorish and flavorsome, and I can keep going back glass after glass. So the LA Brewery English Blush is my go-to that. I've always got some on my shelf. It's the one that I recommend to friends that are like, oh, I'm just not sure about smart things, um, which does happen. I'm like, come here, um, when it comes to spirits and that's what I hinted on earlier is the new, um, not so new, but things that are becoming available that are really adding that punch of flavor, and from a founder story as well bativo, just, I absolutely adore what immy's doing. I think the liquid is absolutely outstanding. I mean, come on, from a branding point of view, vitiva and Ottolenghi. I'm like, wow, that's so cool. You can tell I speak from the heart because, yeah, that's certainly a liquid that I absolutely adore.

Speaker 2:

And then, speaking of branding, so I think sometimes the big boys can get a bit of a bad rap, the global conglomerates, and I think you know Diageo, with Guinness Zero in particular, was quite a controversial one when that came out and I'm like, no, this is fantastic for the category, this is fantastic for the category. Um. And then not only that, even though I'm not a beer drinker, something like Guinness Zero is something that gets talked about so much within um as a society piece now that it's just part and parcel that people can pick up a Guinness Zero without judgment, and I'm like that is amazing for what that does, for people to be able to give choice. So I'm, I'm massive, massive fan of that. And again, I've always got Guinness zero and again Guinness zero, a Guinness zero in the fridge for for when friends come by, that is a go-to, even though I don't drink it.

Speaker 2:

Um, but for me, with something along the kind of the beer beer style of things, um, I am, I live in the southwest, so, but you know, I might not be from originally from here, but, um, the southwest. So I might not be originally from here, but the southwest does sing to me, and so it probably comes as no surprise that I'm a fan of cider and there's a family-run cider mill, sheppey's, not too far from where I live, and they do a low ABV cider and that is probably. Well, not, not probably. It is what. I usually have a bottle or two in the fridge and for me that's outstanding because it's.

Speaker 2:

It actually tastes like cider and it's not sweet, it's actually a dry crisp nice like, actually tastes like cider, which I feel is some have a little way to go when it comes to that style, but we're getting there. We're getting there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, listen. First of all, great suggestions. Fantastic. La Brewery yes, absolutely wonderful. Can see why you love them, petivo. What Emma and the team there are doing is fabulous. I mean, they are a prime example of how to to grow, uh, an impassioned, independent, founder-led business in this space and they are so well respected. Uh, I've been imma and I've been trying to get together to get her on the show for a while, so my diaries keep crossing. But listen out, guys, it will be coming soon. Um, I'll be the first one to listen.

Speaker 1:

fantastic, fantastic, guinness yeah huge, I mean last year, uh, and I think so far this year they've been the most, will be coming soon. I'll be the first one to listen. Fantastic, fantastic Guinness, yeah, huge, I mean last year and I think so far this year they've been the most recommended by guests when I asked this question. Everybody is loving the Guinness and I think you're right.

Speaker 1:

You know, as a big brand, yes, it poses challenges to smaller brands, to independent brands, when it comes to supermarket shelf space, the fact that they can afford to sponsor, you know, huge international sporting arenas, but the, the visibility that they give to this sector, to this market, is is priceless and without that, things I think would look very different, without big alcohol investing the way that it it has. Um, so you know, and the last reason was the cider. You're right, some of them too sweet, uh, and I think that that's a big challenge, but I think I've been predicting that I think the next couple of years we're going to see a lot more af cider brands coming into the game and raising the game as well, because I think it's one area that hasn't had as much love definitely, definitely, definitely.

Speaker 2:

I think the the latest one I tried was clean cider and I was like oh my gosh, yes, yeah, this is what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, is that the chance one yes, chance clean cider John. Logue, lovely, lovely chap. And the great cider. Um, and yeah, I think that one cider I can't remember the name of it now just won, uh, a trophy at the world alcohol free award. So you know, I think the category is going to start making its way, uh, making a name for itself more definitely um, anita, it has been wonderful speaking to you.

Speaker 1:

I could ask you lots and lots more questions. There's so much going on, but I'll be respectful of your time and perhaps say that, uh, we should have this conversation again, you know, another time and bring you back on again, because what Liars has done is absolutely phenomenal and I'm really excited to see what comes next. You know other than obviously you know you talked about the RTD cans and what might be coming to the UK, but just in terms of what you're doing as a business to keep supporting yourselves and supporting the industry and, most importantly, supporting the drinkers out there who are looking to have their drink their way, so that they can enjoy a life less intoxicated. So hats off and bravo to all of you. Thank you for joining me.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thank you, denise, it's been an absolute pleasure. Look forward to next time.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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