Mindful Drinking & Moderation in Midlife: Low No Drinker Podcast

#99. Between Teetotal and Tipsy: The Lost Art of Small Beer

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 99

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James Grundy, co-founder of Small Beer, joins me to share the fascinating story behind reviving a brewing tradition that vanished over a century ago.

After several years building a gin brand, James & partner, former Fuller's brewer Felix James, set out to revive "small beer", historically consumed for nutrition and hydration, with an upper limit of 2.8% ABV.

Their mission: to create the perfect middle ground between teetotalism and the spectacular hangovers from increasingly strong craft beers, has now grown into a B Corp-certified brewery that has revolutionised water usage and is now launching across 450 M&S stores.

0:00 A brief history of Small Beers
5:40 Bringing back a lost art
9:02 Finding a market
11:14 70% lager
17:53 The Small Beer range
22:50 Brewing up to mid-strength
25:32 Dry Floor policy
28:05 Long lagering & other challenges
29:38 Collaborative brewing & B Corp status
31:40 Launching into 450 M&S stores
34:20 Retail support
35:33 The mid-strength movement
42:06 Finding Small Beer
43:20 The BBQ-Q

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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello, lono Nation, and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the Lono and light alcohol revolution, from wine to gin to beer. James Grundy, my guest today, has been in the adult beverage industry for around about 17 years now and has seen it evolve in ways in which I'm sure he never would have imagined. In 2017, james and his co-founder, felix, launched Small Beer, a UK brewed mid-strength beer range that sits under 3% ABV for those times when less really is more. As it says on their website, small Beer is a lifestyle choice for those who want to enjoy it. All Wonderful words.

Speaker 1:

Regular listeners will know that I'm a big fan of the mid-strength movement, and brands like small beer and the rest of the mid-strength collective, which they are obviously indeed a part of, offer a much needed middle ground for all of us Because, as we know, choosing to change the way that you drink or choosing to drink less isn't just a black and white binary situation. So I'm very excited to have James on the podcast today. We're going to have a chat about all things small beer, how it came to be, his thoughts on the mid-strength movement as a whole and what we can expect to see from small beer going forward. So hello, james, thank you for joining me, my lovely.

Speaker 2:

Denise, thank you so much for having me. What a fabulous introduction.

Speaker 1:

Was it okay? I think it was okay.

Speaker 2:

It was great, you touched it all wonderfully.

Speaker 1:

Fabulous End of conversation, ta-da. No, honestly lovely to have you on. I've seen you doing some amazing stuff with Small Beer and I know that you are a lovely, chatty Cathy when it comes to what you're doing. So I'm really excited to get you going on all of the fantastic stuff you've been doing, because you tell a great story, james. So I'd love you to start off with the story of the adventure that led you to where you are today. So start where you want to start. How come you made small beer?

Speaker 2:

Brilliant. No thanks, Denise. So you touched on in the intro that my background was in the drinks industry. I was building a gin brand, actually called Sixth Meth Gin, for eight years, between 2009 and 2017. And prior to that I was in the wine industry and my business partner, Felix, was one of the lead brewers at Fuller's.

Speaker 2:

Prior to that he worked at AB InBev, so on a considerably larger scale, he was running quality control on Budweiser UK when it was still coming out of Mortlake, southwest London, and I've been talking to Felix. He and I had both spoken about our love of good beer and I've been talking about this history of small beer. During my history of gin talks You've probably seen the depictions of Hogarth's Gin Lane and Beer Street, the references to small beer from Dickens to Shakespeare to Chaucer, and it was this incredible space that sat in between non-Alp effectively and what we were all experiencing at the time and I'm not talking about Middle ages now, but present day, really 10 years ago, 10, 12 years ago which was this movement of craft beer American-inspired, interestingly and it took this premium continental 5% beer category, which we'd all started to become used to, of Peronis and Stellas and Estrellas and San Miguel's to 6, 7, 8, 9%.

Speaker 1:

And the flavors were great.

Speaker 2:

The hangovers were spectacular, or you went cold turkey and you said I'm abstaining, and really zero was occupied by the three Bs. At that time you had Bitburger Drive, budvar.

Speaker 1:

Bavaria.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry, and this was before Brewdog Nanny State had even come to be, but you had quite a bit of Bex.

Speaker 2:

Blue on the scene and I said it feels like there's a chance for something in between, when you still want all of that lovely sociability. You want a little of the relaxation, a little bit of that, ah. But you don't want the sore head. But you don't want a sore head and I don't know about you. But even drinking at 5% for me left me feeling rather dusty the following day and I took this idea to Felix of small beer. Historically it had been drunk for nutrition but also for hydration. The upper limit for small beer was set at 2.8% ABV. At that, abv, the water alcohol content means the body hydrates more quickly than it dehydrates. Alcohol passes that, it becomes a diuretic. You start to dehydrate quicker than you hydrate. And at a time in the 15, 16, 17, 18 hundreds it was consumed for nutrition but also for hydration, deemed to be far safer than water and tasting far better.

Speaker 2:

And only lost at the end of the 1800s and into the early 1900s because water filtration methodologies increased tenfold and producing small beer well was hard. It didn't have a great shelf stability and the art for making it vanished. But I didn't have the production methodology expertise. I didn't have the brewing expertise. I was sitting on this idea and I took this idea to Felix, whose dissertation was in yeast management and culture not a light, but a great skill set, given what we do and said do you think we could bring back small beer? And ever the optimist, my business partner, felix James, I think we probably both are, maybe sometimes to our detriment. So let's give it a go. Let's give the production aspect of it a go. I've got the idea, I think I've got some of the production expertise and I said to him look, if we do it, no cooking off the alcohol, no stripping it out via reverse osmosis, no diluting it as in producing a stronger beer and watering it back that's the liquoring back, just the best of homegrown ingredients we would look to source and we'd brew it to strength. And that was in 2016,. Interestingly, we started brewing together on our weekends and we would meet early morning at a local Costa. It was the only place open before we then both went to work between 6.30 and 8.30. Then we'd start our working day before we then both went to work between 6.30 and 8.30, then we'd start our working day and we'd business plan then and go into our working days and then we'd brew again together at the weekends.

Speaker 2:

Chopping, changing, reworking. Historically efficient brewing has always been about maximizing the amount of alcohol that you could extract from your raw ingredients. Strong beer was efficient brewing and we tried to flip that thinking on its head and we said how do we maximize flavor but really minimize the amount of alcohol that's being produced throughout the brew? And I suppose, long story longer. We went to a company called Gravity Systems and they've built all the majors in the UK now and we took them this design of a brewing kit and they looked at it and they said you'll never be able to brew beer on this. And we said you're right, not big beer, but we think we can brew the very best small beer anyone's ever tasted. So beer at that mid-strength ABV, not zero, not five, but right in the middle. And they said no, no, no, no, no, look, take this off the shelfer.

Speaker 1:

We said no, no, no no.

Speaker 2:

And they made us sign a waiver that said if this doesn't work, you're on the hook for quite a lot here. If it doesn't work, it's on you, and we did, and thankfully, it did work, and that was 8 years ago now. We ran our first brew on our big kit in winter 2017 and in our what was really then quite an empty warehouse in South Bermondsey. We are nestled in between South Bermondsey Rail Station and the Old Kent Road and daunting, denise, to say the least. But a leap of faith that we took and we're incredibly pleased that we did.

Speaker 1:

Wow, what a story, and I love that. You had so much belief in what you were setting out to do that you were happy to sign this waiver saying you know what? We'll make it work, Don't worry about it, We've got you here. How did you have so much belief in what you were doing in this mid-strength category which didn't have a name it wasn't a category at that time how did you know anybody would even want it?

Speaker 2:

No, it's funny when we first, you know, and that was my job when I first took small beer out to market and we've got a really lovely division of labor between Felix and myself and he looks after production and the operational side of the business and I get to fly the flag and spread the good word and strategize and attempt to build this category of mid-strength.

Speaker 2:

And I took 2% beer out into the market and people said what do I do with 2% beer? You know I'm either drinking or I'm not drinking. But actually I think we knew that this was something that aligned with our lifestyles. We were juggling family, young families, health and well-being, busy work calendars, still wanting to attempt some sort of social life amongst that, and part of that was very often having a very good beer in hand If you were catching up with friends of an evening or colleagues, or maybe at the weekend if we were hosting friends over with the kids and still very much wanting to partake. But finding that 5% plus plus just wasn't facilitating that lifestyle that we aspired to lead. And I had a very, very strong belief that there were others who felt the same. They just didn't realize there was something available to them because it hadn't been done for 100 odd years and it was our role to give people that option, should they wish, to choose it and taking it out to the market.

Speaker 1:

You're absolutely right. The way that beer has been growing and getting stronger and stronger and stronger and not more enjoyable. I often equate it to spice. You know, when you get spicy food and then people are like I really like it, really hot, I want it hotter, I want it, it gets to a point where the heat is not adding more flavor, it's just adding more heat. And I think it's the same with beer. I mean, I came across in some of my research. There's a 70 percent lager. I think it's called snake venom. What was the purpose of this? But it got to that place, didn't it?

Speaker 2:

where it was? It was a, it was almost a yeah, an, an alcohol race. How strong wacky can I make this? And actually just in terms of enjoyment and sociability and beer's role as a social glue in many environments very often it's not that I mean people want. If the pub is at the heart of a community and it's a space where people want to enjoy spending time and because they are, that's where they are engaging with their peers, then actually nice to be able to give people an option that allows them to stay there for the duration and doesn't leave them with their head in the hands the following day. And I think there are so many occasions for all of us now, whether it be work occasions or family occasions or friends occasions, or after, after an experience that we're all taking part in now, where it's so lovely to be able to socialize with a good drink in hand, but it not compromise you the following, later on that day, or indeed the following day absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I wonder if you can recall or pinpoint a time when you felt that the reception and the understanding of what you were building changed from those initial days where people said two percent, well, I'm either drinking or I'm not. What's this? To now, where obviously people are far more open to it? Do you recall a time when you went?

Speaker 2:

now they get it yes, so we were doing a lot in the sort of business lunch. Quote-unquote space in the city draft, which was really interesting. People that there was a I think remains to some degree a culture of people going out on social lines and going for lunch but not wanting their spreadsheets to blur in the afternoon.

Speaker 2:

We started to see that in the early days, but really I think it was during COVID we were delivering from the brewery to homes across southeast London and seeing people play it back to us. They're like I've got the kids at home, I've got to work. When they go down, at the end of the day I want to treat myself, but my goodness me if I'm trying to juggle all this on a hangover. It is incredibly difficult and it was funny. There was a big professional parent space at that stage that I think small play was really resonating with interestingly. At that stage that I think smorgasbord was really resonating with interestingly, and I don't think you can be all things to all people. But we then transitioned to a slightly older demographic. There was a 55 plus market that was saying I enjoy having a drink at the end of the day most days, but what I would like to do now is, I would like to half my alcohol intake.

Speaker 2:

This is really perfect for me because in many respects it more than halves my unit intake, but I still want to enjoy a sundown or two at the end of the day, and now I think we're seeing a younger demo that's adopting that lifestyle.

Speaker 2:

We're saying, actually I don't want to spend my Saturday in bed all day because I want to be up for brunch and I want to be seeing friends and I want to be to go to the gym and it's aligningitates that lifestyle. But, um, but interesting to see that shift taking place. And I think we're seeing that shift not just happening in the uk but also on a global scale, of people not wanting to forego a social occasion, but being so much more aware of its impact on their sleep, for example, and their performance after.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Sleep is the big one it is. You know, people are looking at alcohol as a route to help them sleep, but it doesn't help you sleep better, but if you are using it in a way that actually moderates your lifestyle to facilitate what you want not only in that moment, but also what you want in future moments, and that is why I'm so excited about this, this category, and think it's great that brands like you and the collective, which we will come on to in a moment, are doing such great stuff. Let's, um, focus a little bit on the beers themselves then. So can you tell me a bit about what's in the range, uh, and how that's looking and how that's progressed over time?

Speaker 2:

absolutely so. We started out with just two beers. We had a lager and we had a dark lager. Our lager is a classic Pilsner. It remains one of our absolute heroes. It sits at 2.1%. I have a lovely camera.

Speaker 1:

Oh there it is, yeah, fabulous, actually, I've got one here too.

Speaker 2:

To lager is the German for to store, and we lager it for six weeks over an industry average of three to four days, and that long lagering keeps it very clean, keeps it very crisp and very, very fresh. It also means we don't need to use any finings to make the beer bright. We allow the yeast and the protein that's in suspension to drop out naturally over that six-week lagering, so you can retain the vegan credentials of the beer. It starts being vegan. Sometimes people over-process and it turns to not being so, but we want it to remain.

Speaker 2:

And then our dark lager, funnily enough, was one percent. It was nothing like. It was incredible coffee and toast and dark chocolatey and almost stout like, but so bright and fresh and vibrant it had a devout following. Arguably it was a little niche where I think we were probably asking people to adopt a mid-strength or even lower, a one percent proposition and a dark lager which is a style that not many are familiar with. So maybe it'll make a comeback. I'd love to see it make a comeback, but, um, but our lager very much remains.

Speaker 2:

And that was then followed swiftly by our pale ale. Our pale ale, it's a classic English pale ale. It is juicy and it's tropical and it's got this lovely kind of lychee character, but it's also very, very balanced. It's a beautiful beer. We have a gluten-free golden IPA. The difference between an IPA and a pale ale is that the grain in an IPA is always roasted for longer, so it will always look a little darker in the glass. This is a golden IPA.

Speaker 2:

All of our malt, our grain, our base for our beers comes from Warminster, which is just equidistant south of Bristol and Bath, and in Warminster is housed the oldest floor maltings in the country it's amazing what they do there and we use a grain called Marisotta. Marisotta gets used in a lot of golden ales and it gives our beers a wonderful body and mouthfeel, great texture, and it's the backbone to everything that we brew here. Um, so from our gluten-free golden ipa we then have a, a real summer sipper here, which is our hazy. It is again an ipa style. It is just bursting with mango, guavaava, tropical fruit notes. It pours like sunshine. It just wants to be paired with a barbecue or a picnic and enjoyed with your feet up, as I say, in some sort of sunny weather. It's lovely. And then we do some more seasonal beers as well. So in the wintertime we really go for the darker styles. We have a stout and we have an amber as well, and they tend to come back around seasonally.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so you're rotating those ones throughout the year. Do you do any sort of other one-off specials as well?

Speaker 2:

We do. We released really recently our first ever collaboration with an amazing group of individuals called Sorted Food. They are a wonderful group who are big on YouTube and chefs and food influencers and just good people to collab with and we released a blanche with them a wheat beer, a white beer, with them a wheat beer or white beer. So it is a. It uses west country wheat, which gives a a wonderful body and almost a little bit of spice to the beer. We use sussex grown coriander and then seville orange peel so you get this fusion of the wheat with the fruit and the spice. Wheat beer is not for everyone. It's one of my absolute favorite styles.

Speaker 1:

I love it. I'm salivating here going. This sounds like this sounds divine.

Speaker 2:

I have to try it we're gonna make sure that that happens. These are if you've not had some already, I'm gonna. I'm gonna organize for some to get oh, wonderful it's a real summer supper.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it sounds like it. It can't be easy. Making the tradition of beer, as you said, has always been about making it stronger. All the research, all the technology has all been about going in one direction. You guys have come along now and you're doing something very, very different. Although not new, it must pose some unique challenges in terms of your production, in layman's terms, because I know that obviously your production is very, very important to you and I appreciate that there'll be some of it that might be slightly over my head, never mind anybody else's. Are there some sort of unique challenges that you're facing?

Speaker 1:

producing beers that are below three percent, keeping them within that 2.1 to 2.8, if I'm correct range yeah and and doing that within the sphere of the things that are really important to you, because I know that your production isn't just about making beer. You actually want to make sure that you're doing it in a way that serves the planet, that looks after our environment. I know you have a unique process in terms of how you treat your production areas, so can you talk to me a little bit about that?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. So I touched on briefly before. We don't cook off the alcohol. We don't strip it out via reverse osmosis or lick it back as in dilute down. We brew to strength.

Speaker 2:

So we really pride ourselves in sourcing the best of homegrown ingredients and doing so as in brewing up to the ABVs 2.1%, for example, for our lager and 2.6% for our hazy IPA. We do that by controlling the quantity of fermentable sugars that are available to the yeast. So we don't cut fermentation short, we don't kill yeast. We have a very traditional five to seven-day fermentation. Fermentation is yeast converting the fermentable sugars into alcohol, creating CO2, creating heat and creating alcohol during that process and indeed our beers, because we don't have high alcohol or higher alcohol content in our beers.

Speaker 2:

We have to run a very, very tight, very hygienic ship here because the alcohol is not in there to kill off any potential infection, bacterial infection or anything along those lines.

Speaker 2:

So we run a really, really tight production ship. Part of that and we touched on it briefly before we came on tight production ship. Part of that and we touched on it briefly before we came on stems also from our dry floor policy. So when you step into our brewery here, you'll note that we don't have any drains in our floors. Very often, when you visit breweries, you'll see the brewers have got wellies on, they've got a hose in one hand, they've got a squeegee in the other and they're putting hundreds, if not thousands, of litres of water onto the floor every day. In the name of cleaning, they move spanked grain around the floors, spanked grain being the grain that the sugar has been extracted from already, and we said this seems like a staggering waste of such a precious resource. Could we challenge ourselves to not spill a drop of water onto our floors? Subsequently, coming back to what we're talking about from a hygiene perspective, not create a very damp environment also prone to mold.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so there was a twofold benefit for doing that. When we started the industry averaging beer was eight to ten pints of water to brew a single pint of beer. We just thought this is staggeringly wasteful and because of my background in spirits and wine and Felix's background in spirits, beer and soft drinks, we'd seen how resource intensive the industry is. We said there's got to be a way to be more responsible in our production. Here. We managed to cut that down from eight to 10, down to a pint and a half of water to brew a pint of beer. And we've been banging that drum within the industry fairly loudly and we've been recognized by some amazing awards. We've invited brewers both in the uk and internationally to see how we do what we do. Even our kit is designed to recapture, recycle and recirculate the water that we do use.

Speaker 2:

The industry average has since come down. The industry average is now between five and six pints, which I hope we've had a very, very, very small part in inspiring, and our average is now 1.3. So it's something that we continue to push on, but it also coming back to your question around some of the challenges that we face contributed as a benefit to us running a very clean, very hygienic environment here at the brewery when producing our mid-strength beers. So, and I suppose one other challenge that we face is that we long lager our beers here and I briefly showed you things before we came on, but the backdrop for your listeners is our fermentation vessels. Our brewery is full of tanks and because we store or long lager our beers that's our bottleneck here beers that's our bottleneck here.

Speaker 2:

More, greater beer production means requirement for more tanks to store our beers. Once the tanks are full, they're full and we need to give them the time to do what they need to do ahead of us going to can our beers or put them into a bottle, keg or indeed cask. We also sell a lot of cask ale, which we're very proud of. So those are, those are a handful of the challenges that we are facing at the moment I mean but don't get me wrong as a business there's so many in fmcg and indeed the beer industry face. Over the last years we've been navigating everything from Brexit to COVID and global financial challenges, to tariffs now and an unknown around those. Then. We do export a little bit to the US, so that's an interesting curveball that we are navigating at present.

Speaker 1:

I bet I've had many conversations about the complexities of distribution in the US, so I won't make you pull your hair out about that.

Speaker 1:

That's phenomenal that you've managed to implement such a reduction in the amount. First of all, I had no idea it took that many pints of water to make a pint of beer and I don't know about Lono Nation listening if they knew that, but I'm guessing that a lot of beer and I don't know about Lono Nation listening if they, if they knew that, but I'm guessing that a lot of them will be as surprised as I am. Um, but huge well done for being able to reduce that so much and then having that knock-on impact on the industry, and I love that. You said that you've invited other brewers to come and see how you do it, that you're not gatekeeping this. As you know, this is our secret, this is our proprietary. You're like no, let's, let's figure this out together and share this, this knowledge, um, because I know that sustainability, uh, and your b core status, that's really important to you, um, but that you are making that something that can be accessible to others as well. I think that's amazing.

Speaker 2:

I must say, actually, out of all of the different drinks industry categories that I've worked within, the brewing industry is a very collaborative one and brewers, particularly from all of the different breweries, have regular, regular meetups and there's a great deal of knowledge sharing, which I think is really important.

Speaker 2:

I say I haven't typically seen across other drinks industries, but it's it's, it's lovely in that respect, um, but you're absolutely right, our b corp uh certification is something we're incredibly proud of and it's a template that we hold over a lot of our decision making here as a business. We, when we set up, we said we're going to do this. We want to do this in the most responsible way possible, both for community and for planet, and we became, in the start of 2019, london's first and we remain london's only b corp brewery, um, so it's, it's something that's it's a, it's important for us and I I think it it's helped us with everything from how and who we hire, for example, to how we show up at a event like a taste of london, for example, as well which you're at this week.

Speaker 1:

You were just telling me we are.

Speaker 2:

We are. So the next five days it's good you've caught me uh, before taste of london, because after taste of london I don't have much of a voice left but it's quite an event and you've you've been there many, many, many years and being able to, to share your wares with, with the um revelers there.

Speaker 1:

uh, which a lovely, lovely crowd for listeners who haven't been. Tasteburns, one of those great events. It's food, it's drinks, it's music, it's good people and it's a great way to spend an afternoon. But I bring that up because that is not the only place you're available. You've had some very big news recently about where people can find your beers we have it's excitingly this week actually, of the.

Speaker 2:

In fact, tomorrow, the 18th wednesday, the 18th of june, we launch across 450 m&s stores across the uk. So this really is taking me into the mainstream. And and what just a wonderful partner in m&s who we are incredibly proud to align with. And I think, as they are they, they've been fans of equality and innovation for a long time now and um, and we are now in a place where our four packs of both our small beer, lager and hazy IPA will be available across the country in M&S. And I must say we've got some wonderful retail partners and we're very, very fortunate for that.

Speaker 2:

Majestic Wine were the very first to adopt, and what incredible storytellers they are within their teams and how well trained they, their teams, are, um, and they were very, very first to take small beer across the country and and remain a very, very close retail part of ours. That was then followed by a cardo who who our customer type and a cardo just works hand in hand. Then Waitrose and gosh. We still work incredibly closely in growing our partnership with Waitrose year on year. In fact, they are the only retailer to have our stout available. They have it exclusively. So if any of your listeners are big stout fans, then they'll find it in their local Waitrose store. And now, majestic, excuse me, my me now Marks Spencers.

Speaker 2:

So just an amazing, amazing journey, and funnily enough it really has been the retailers, I think, who have embraced the mid-strength category and the innovation and, I think, have been listening very closely to their customers who are saying, actually, I do want an option that I can enjoy midweek, and I've been adapting their offering to that shift in demand and and I maybe it's because when we're in a shop there's a little bit more dwell time, we can actually take a moment to decide what it is that really aligns with us and our lifestyle and the occasion that we're looking to shop for, as opposed to being in a busy bar in what may be more of a pack mentality, where you go with the crowd and order what one might always order, or or a familiar brand name. Um, so you know, kudos to the retailers who have really embraced the category and, I think, are really proactively catering to their customers what do you think we'll see from the mid-strength category going forward?

Speaker 1:

how do you think it's going to change? Because you're part of the mid-strength collective um, which I have spoken about before on the podcast. It's a selection of several fabulous brands in the mid-strength space. Now, obviously, they don't all have a sub-3% ABV, because some are wine, some are spirits. You know it's a different horses for courses, so to speak. Where do you think this category has the potential to go and what might we be seeing from it from yourself, the rest of the collective, others going forward?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's such a good question and I and I I really do think that it won't be too long before. On a wine menu, you'll have, you'll see, a mid-strength option on a same no, you're not dissimilar with a spirits menu and and likewise with a draft beer lineup, you'll have an option at five percent. You may have a craft high rabv option. You'll have a mid strength option and you'll have a zero option. And you, as an enjoyer of whether that be a beer, wine, spirit or cider particularly the pub and the larger pub groups, to look at adopting the mid-strength category might be even quicker than they maybe are. I think there is an independent operator who's really embraced it and is seeing the benefits both for them as a business but also that their customers are experiencing. But I do think that time will come within the bigger public operators.

Speaker 2:

And I think we're going to see more entrants coming into the category. I mean, we've been banging the drum as loudly as we were able as a small business for the last eight years and we've seen over that time new entrants coming, and particularly over the last 18 months to two years. The influx of mid-strength entrants into the market is so exciting and I think that's only going to support awareness, availability and therefore greater choice for all of those, myself included, who likes to shop the mid-strength category.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that sounds like the dream, doesn't it? You know, having all of those options that work for you when you need them to, for whatever your reasons are. I think that accessibility, that availability, that understanding, I think it's that communication, because I do feel that the mid-strength category has such potential but that perhaps it's possibly one of the least understood categories by people. Because if you were to pop outside maybe not right outside the brewery, but go a little bit further down the street and say you know, what do you consider to be a mid-strength beer? Or do you know about this? What's your effect? Most people still don't quite know about the category.

Speaker 2:

So it's about how we spread the word and show people that it exists oh my gosh, I couldn't agree more and I think what gets us as in team small beer and you know, and I hope others in the space, but certainly for us, felix and I, for the last nine years is building net new. And that's not easy when you're building entirely new category, but, my goodness me, it's exciting.

Speaker 2:

And when you start hearing that being played back, and that understanding really being again by groups of people not just early adopters who are always seeking out the next innovation. That's fabulous and we're seeing it happen and that's exactly why we go to festivals like the Taste of London's, of the world, so that we can spread the word of Mid-Strength and indeed the benefits that there are. The taste, as you mentioned, is such a great example. People are there enjoying great food with friends, with colleagues, but throughout the day and not necessarily wanting to stumble out of Regent's Park at the end of it.

Speaker 1:

And it's especially pertinent on a day like that. You know it's going to be hot, it's going to be sunny. You don't want to be drinking can after can or bottle after bottle of full strength booze in that heat. So being able to get that taste of alcohol if that's what you're still looking for without that full impact of it Like I say, I'm a big fan of the category if that's what you're still looking for without that full impact of it. Like I say, I'm a big fan of the category and I love what you're doing, what the rest of the collective are doing.

Speaker 1:

And again, hats off to you for such a remarkable achievement in being found in 450 M&S stores. It really does help to highlight that the way we are drinking is changing and it doesn't mean that you have to go teetotal, give up booze forever. It's not about being sober, it's not about being in recovery. It's about saying alcohol works for me sometimes, maybe doesn't work for me other times. It's not what I'm looking for today. Today I want something different, and having those options, um, is what I really think is going to make the difference for people and hopefully help some people before they get to the stage where they need to think about making lifelong changes, so yeah fabulous thank you.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I could not agree with you more, and that's exactly what we aspire to deliver here at Small Beer Incredibly tasty, very, very skillfully crafted brews that align with people's lifestyles and allow them to enjoy all of that wonderful social that beer great beer can be so social, so social. Social that beer great beer can be. Um, so social, so social. Yeah, I know, denise, you've summarized it so wonderfully there, and thank you for for having me on the show today oh, that's great, but before I let you go, I do have one more question well actually two more.

Speaker 1:

I saw one. You've kind of answered already, which is, uh, always you know where people can go to find you. So you've kind of answered already which is always you know where people can go to find you. So you've mentioned the various retailers. If people want to maybe pop online or follow you on socials, where should they go to find out more about small beer and more about yourselves as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you can find us on. I mean, if you drop us into Google small beer, I hope we'll be the first thing that comes up, but certainly certainly on our socials it's at original small beer. At original small beer, we talk about ourselves as the original mid-strength brewers, um, and, and really we've been championing the category since, since, since its inception, um, and I think what you summarized so wonderfully a moment ago denise is also is that shift. There's a real shift towards a almost more modern drinking habits. Sometimes it aligns, sometimes you're not drinking, sometimes you are, sometimes you want a little. You know, and actually if we can find a better balance, then I think that's great for everyone.

Speaker 1:

Well, speaking of balance, it is a beautiful sunny week, as you'll know because you'll be outside in most of it this week. Imagine you are not after, or rather, imagine it's the week after Taste and you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house, um, and you are bringing along some uh drinks to enjoy? This is a question I ask everyone who comes on, because I really believe in spreading the love so other than the wonderful small beer.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, um, you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house. What else in the low, no or light alcohol space do you enjoy on a nice, hot sunny day?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, great question. So yeah, I'd be picking up my four packs of small beer from M&S. I'd be picking up probably a handful of bottles of the Sassy Rosé. They do a beautiful cider, 3%. It's a rosé cider. It's a beautiful vibrant pink color. It looks amazing. And cider, it's a beautiful, vibrant pink color. It looks amazing. And I think that's available in Majestic Wine and also Waitrose. I'll be picking up a few of those as well, and I'd probably also be taking sort of a lighter white wine, maybe like a Vino Verde, something like that, something that sits maybe at eight percent. You get some really nice dry, um, uh, whites out of the Alsace region that sit around that eight percent mark as well, and I think that would be kind of perfect. That would be, that would be my little trio of um of of wine, beer and cider to take to a barbecue.

Speaker 1:

Great selection, Perfect barbecue selection there. James, Listen, I know that you have got so much to get on with so I'm going to let you go, but thank you so much for joining me today. It really has been a pleasure speaking to you and hearing the story of what you've done and all that you continue to achieve both for the brand and for the planet and for the industry.

Speaker 2:

So keep up the amazing work and thank you. Thanks, denise. A big thanks to your listeners as well. I appreciate it.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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