Mindful Drinking & Moderation in Midlife: Low No Drinker Podcast

#33. GNISTA's 'Not' Spirits & 'Not' Red Wines with Erika Ollén

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 33

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QUOTES FROM THE SHOW

“I don't really care that wine is normally made from grapes or that a gin is made from, you know, distillates of xyz herbs.”

“Do I think it's impossible? No, I don't think it's impossible, I think it takes time.”

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Bringing you more international insight from Low No Nation, in this week’s conversation, I’m chatting with GNISTA founder Erika Ollén about her unique range of ‘not’ wines and ‘not’ spirits.

 

I love Erika’s story and how her goal was always to make the best liquid by travelling the world to ask the drink makers what they wanted from a non-alcoholic liquid to make the best cocktails.

 

After years of research GNISTA launched in 2019 to an international market of bartenders and drinks enthusiasts who just happen to prefer their drinks alcohol-free at times.

 

Erika shares her experiences of creating her Frenh & Italian style ‘not’ wines and we discuss the challenges of getting the same buy-in from sommeliers as she did from the bartenders she spoke to.

 

Non-alcoholic GNISTA is available in 10 markets around the world, but Brexit has impacted the way the business runs from the UK. We also talk about the pros & cons of ‘big alcohol’ and the buying power of millennials in the low/no-&-light alcohol space.

 

Despite a technical glitch that nearly set my camera on fire, this is a great conversation full of insight and new perspective.

 
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We also talks about:
Caliente
Feral  

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Speaker 1:

I don't really care that wine is normally made from grapes or that, like a gin is made from you know, distillates of xyz herbs. Do I think it's impossible? No, I don't think it's impossible, I think it's uh. I think it takes time.

Speaker 2:

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast. As you know, I like to keep it international and make it a truly low, no nation affair, so I'm very excited today to be speaking to Erika Ollin, all the way from Sweden, who is here to talk to me about her fabulous brand Gnista and I believe I said that right. I've asked her three times, so she'll correct me when she comes on. You did, yes. Galista is doing fantastically well over here in the UK and it's really exciting to see brands that are making it into the space and are getting recognition for what they're doing. I'm also excited to find out about the journey that she's been on, what it's been like launching and delivering a brand in another place, in a country that has an interesting relationship with alcohol.

Speaker 2:

Sweden are not very forthcoming with the purchase of alcohol. It's not something that's done as freely as it is here in the UK, and I wonder how the alcohol-free market has been received by people there. So I'm excited to find out more about that, more about the drinks in the range and the eclectic passion that's led to the drinks that she's made. So, erica, thank you very much for joining me. How are you today? Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

I am good, it's hot in Sweden, so it's yeah, it's nice.

Speaker 2:

It gets really hot. People think that Sweden's all snow and and cold, but I've been there in summer and it's super hot it is like all of it, uh.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's a very long country as well, but it's uh yeah, but I mean july has been quite shitty. So I think it's nice with some heat, you know, to keep us going into into autumn yeah, same same.

Speaker 2:

Here we've it's been quite crap up until now, and now it's a heat and then what happens is nobody can cope. So then everybody puts on the air conditioning and then makes it really cold again and I'm like but it's summertime.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know, I'm going to Vienna on Saturday to launch Gnista in Austria, and it's meant to be 35 degrees, minimum 26. So that's yeah.

Speaker 2:

Wow, degrees minimum 26. So that's yeah, wow, okay, that's a little bit warm, um, but thank you so much for being with me today, erica. It's really nice to have you here. Um, and I want to get into talking about your amazing brand. I mentioned to you, before we press record, that I have tasted the wonderful samples that I have, and I will tell you which ones are my favorite and why in a bit. But I'd love to know a bit about you. What was the journey that led you to decide to create this brand in the first place? Start where you want to start.

Speaker 1:

All right. Well, I guess my, my interests and my line of work, they've always been within the food and drink world. I love quality, I love food and drink. I used to live in London, like you know, scout the different parks, for you know herbs and stuff, you know that's like. I think it's just, you know, it's so fortunate that we can eat and drink many times a day, for you know all of our lives, and I wanted to be enjoyable and so I um, well, I, back in 2015, I started working for um, a Swedish non-alcoholic brand, um, and you know there were some challenges. We exported it was like a chili infused organic drink, uh, and, and that really you know.

Speaker 1:

Back then, because I have three children, so I have had my share of not drinking um, but you know. But then working with really struck me how, um, how like the non-alcohol way was just like you know well, this, this is happening. And then you know I was doing that and you know I was was just like you know well, this, this is happening. And then you know I was doing that and you know I was struggling, trying to find, you know, the right positioning and all of that. And then, when I saw that seed lip launched, I was like a non-alcoholic spirit. That's so interesting. You're like what is? And you know, I ordered one of the first bottles and I and I tried it and and I was like, wow, you know, because you know why. You know this is such a great drink, but it doesn't like, you know, okay.

Speaker 1:

So we, we all know that we're entering a future where people want to drink less alcohol, right? So basically, we, as in you know, the producers and the people working within the drink sector, we, we can help. You know, show the direction, I guess. Or you know, show the direction, uh, I guess. Or you know what? What do we want people to have? Because we know that the, the occasions when we treat ourselves to an enjoyable glass of wine or, you know, a cocktail, or whatever these occasions, they will last because we've had, you know, we've been in them for thousands of years.

Speaker 1:

So so the question is just what? What should we replace it with? And you know how, and, and there'll be like is it the imitations of the old stuff? Is it just like brand new something? And what's important?

Speaker 1:

And for me it's, it's not important with imitations, uh, it's not. Yes, it's important in the sense that the consumer need to understand what kind of drink they can expect, like when they get a bottle of this. But other than that, it's, um, it's, it really doesn't matter for me, it's. It has to do with the, with the actual liquid. So, with the um, you know, with the, with tannins, with mouthfeel, with um, you know, like a lasting complexity with you know, all of these stuff are important for me, um, and I guess, since I didn't come from a winemaking background or a spirit making background, I don't really care that wine is normally made from grapes or that, like, a gin is made from distillates of X, y, z, herbs, herbs. So for me, it was more about finding, you know, what are the most important building blocks or characteristics of um, of, like you know, the, I guess, the most common mixers, or the, the spirits that have, like you know, the work in the baseline.

Speaker 1:

Uh, and, and so I started in I mean shortly after that, let's say, 2017, I started the journey.

Speaker 1:

So I went to Copenhagen to the best mixologists and bar managers and I tried to understand and I asked them I can try to make something that will actually work when it comes to taste, for you to build a cocktail work. When it comes to taste, for you to build a cocktail, um, you know what are the most important um, like spirits or drinks, and what are the most important characteristics. And based on their answers, I launched floral wormwood, which is like a vermouth, so so bitter, herbal, a little bit towards Amaro, but like, and you know, it works as an aperitif. It works in many different you know style of drinks, but you can just have it neat with lemon or you can mix it with tonic or you know either way. And then COVID came and we launched and it was hugely successful and we got so much interest in you know PR and stuff. Covid came, everything was just interest in you know pr and stuff kovic came, everything was just, like, you know, lit on.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, yeah. So then I developed the second one, a smoky barreled oak, which is more like a whiskey rum, uh, and I did that and that was equally, you know, easy to sell to top uh bars around the world. So we're in 10 markets the US, singapore, countries in Europe we've been in Australia turn back Canada. It's a way, I think, like what goes for all of them is that, like the top bars and the top bartenders, they're so enthusiastic, they they can feel this trend firsthand. But you know, many of them don't have like the toolbox for for creating that kind of, I guess, slow burning drinking experience. Like for me, I don't want it to be too tasty, I don't want it to be like, not like that then it's knocking it back, yeah yeah, so like a bit bit, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So it was super easy to get this into the top and bars. I did that and then I was like, what am I going to do now? And one area that I really saw missing was a more heavy red wine alternative. So, uh, you know, wine, or wine replacers, or proxies, or built wines that without alcohol but that would still give you tannins length. Uh, you know, but also, you, that can be paired with food. And so what? A couple of years ago now maybe, I launched the Red series.

Speaker 1:

So we have the Italian and we have the French, and I guess my way of dealing or tackling, tackling creativity, was to be just look at the tasting notes, right? So if you look at a Northern Italian wine, it typically says you know, tasting notes of sour cherry, licorice, pepper, woody tannins, violet. I just took those things and I built it, and I did the same thing with French. But instead of imagine yourself sitting in like a you know Piemonte mountainside, imagine yourself sitting like in a you know southern French lavender field, you know, on a sunny, sunny afternoon, that kind of vibe.

Speaker 1:

So I launched these and, uh, it was way harder to get the approval of sommeliers because they are not like. You know, bartenders, they're so, uh, creative, and you know like fun I want to play around and and sommeliers, they're quite the opposite sometimes and uh, very, very, you know, box thinking. But that has changed. Now it's, I mean, I'd say 2023 was the year when in europe, like now, we're on a number of three, two, um, and many, many one-star michelin restaurants, um. So you know, you have to start somewhere and for me, that starting point would always be the tasting, the experience of drinking.

Speaker 2:

I think you're completely right when it comes to the sort of the differences with bartenders, and I've worked in hospitality for a very long time, so I've had a lot of bar managers underneath me who get so excited.

Speaker 2:

They come in, look, I've got this new ingredient, I've got this new toy and let's mix this and see what happens, whereas sommeliers are far more entrenched in tradition. You know, this is the way it's always been and that's because it's the best way and that's what we should always do, and I think that's one of the reasons why wine proxies, alternatives, adjacents, whatever terminology people want to use. You know, struggle because you need that input, don't you From? Just like you went to the bartenders and said and I love that, I love that you went there and you said that you guys are the best at what you do. What do you want me to make so that you can keep making great low, no drinks? I think that's genius, and more founders and creators need to do that, because we need to ask the people what they want. Um, and if we can get the sommeliers to to join that conversation and tell us what they want in the wines, that can make such a difference?

Speaker 1:

that would be yeah, that would be, that would be fantastic. Well, the thing that would make such a difference, that would be yeah, that would be, that would be fantastic. Well, the thing is that if you ask many sommeliers not the, not the like vegetarian ones, not the hipster ones, not the very high end ones, but the rest of them they will, I mean, they will be for them. The definition of a wine is, you know, something like fermented grapes. That's it. So I think it's, but it's like everything. On the contrary, it's like you have consumers, people who don't want to drink, but want something that is, you know, mouth-filling and like, with complexity and length, and they love it. I mean, so it's. You know it's hard. This one is harder to sell. We actually launched a pink gin this summer as well.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I saw that because the americans wanted something more accessible. So I I made that for them. Very kind of you, but it's, but it's also knister style. So, like you know a lot, a lot going on inside on many levels, but um, but yeah, but there's a consume for consumers. It's, um, it's, you know, it takes time. They want to discover and they go to the drinks they um, they have a relationship with so gins, for example, or you know and then they start their journey discovering, um, and when it comes to the reds, there are so few good de-alkalized wines, so it's actually very it's easy getting approval from from the market, from consumers, when it comes to online and you know, but also just regular stores it's a.

Speaker 2:

It's a struggle, isn't it? So I've got here, uh, your french style, which I tasted. Now I uh looked at the information on the back and um had a bit of a read, and it was telling me to best served at 15 degrees, so I chilled it slightly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think.

Speaker 2:

I think even it's slightly lower, I'd say like yeah yeah, I went a bit lower because, also, it's really hot here at the moment, so at the time of recording it's the middle of August and we're sort of like having 30 degree heat waves in in London um. So I stuck it in the fridge for a bit and then I forgot and I took it out, um, and the first thing I noticed was the paw on it and the colour in this almost viscous musky berry-coloured, and it was beautiful. I thought I'm not sick, this is interesting. So already my mind was thinking this is going to be something interesting, this is something different, and I've got a couple of your drinks here and I've got to say that this is my favourite. It was absolutely divine.

Speaker 2:

The thing that I love, one of the things I love the most about it was the mouth feel, the texture, and my husband laughs at me because he says I use this word when I, when I find a good full body drink and I don't know what to say.

Speaker 2:

He says I always describe it as chewy, but what I mean is that it has that full mouth feel.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, even after you've swallowed, you're still feeling it in different parts of your mouth, that even after you've swallowed, you're still feeling it in different parts of your mouth and a lot of people ask me. You know, when it comes to red wine alternatives, it's hard to find something that gives you that body, that mouthfeel, that tannic feel. So, after explaining that of course it's going to be different, you've taken out 15% of the liquid and trying to find other things to replace it with. I think you've done an amazing job at coming up with something that, as you say on here, it's not a wine, don't expect it to taste like a wine, but you can use it for those wine moments when you want to have something that you would use like a wine and and this one that you're having, the french, that's the slightly like sweeter of the two, so it's it's more like, you know, red berries, more accessible, so that one is fantastic with cheese, uh, the chicken lots of you know vegetarian, also kind of spicy foods, um, the.

Speaker 1:

The other one, italian, that's my favorite and that's also I mean, this is interesting, uh, because I've had, uh, I've had quite a few people you know, from being out and about you know festivals and fairs and stuff, who have been like, oh, I haven't had a drink in eight years and this is, it doesn't taste like a wine, but God, it's like it's giving me sort of that thing and it's so fun because it's not a wine and I hope it's not too wine, uh, and I hope it's not too much of a, you know, trigger um, either, but it's.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting that you can make something that it doesn't have to wine to do with wine at all, and say like there's something that, um, but that's my. The other one is my favorite, um, it's more tart, slightly bitter, um, and the other one, the italian, I'd say, is very nice with barbecue, with tomato, with, like Thai, you know, thai beef salad, so, but also like I've been longing for because I'm getting de-alkalized, like I've always had a glass, always had a glass, and these days I need to try to have at least something every week because otherwise, like, my body will get totally out of it, but the rest of the days I don't care, like I want, and this is also what we see right. So people have one glass, but then they want to have something else and I've been missing something that you can just, you know, sit on the balcony and just having a glass that is slightly chilled, sit on your own or with a friend, and it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting you say that because a recent report over here in the UK shows that 75% of the UK adult population are actively moderating their their drinking. So they they are choosing to switch between a full strength and a and a low or no alcohol drink, either on the same occasion or throughout the week. What's it like in in sweden, you know? Is it well?

Speaker 1:

we're tiny in sweden, we I mostly work with export. So when I launched this brand, I just said, hey, world, anyone will try. And fantastic, and we had, we had this. We created this um zero budget campaign. It was fantastic. It's called get paid to party. So I just like, we published a work out and this was before COVID, like right before COVID. Okay, and like you come to Sweden, you party animal, you are never sober, but you're going to come, bring a friend, you will party sober and your friend will do it the normal way, and then you just write the report at the end we had, and then we like published it in. Like you know well, we gave it to journalists, we published it in university. You know job ads, um sites etc. And we got 25 000 applications, 25 000 people you know having a video and and a letter saying, yeah, actually, like I, I haven't never tried being sober, but yeah, I'll do it. So that gave us, like it gave us. So that one got viral and we got so much um, you know, pr from everywhere.

Speaker 1:

I was participating in so many shows and and that also made you know the knista seo, because I guess I've always spent. You know, I'm running this business using my own funds and it's I want to create and deliver quality, but I don't want it to cost a fortune. So essentially my money are being spent on product development, you know, going into production and the product. But we've been. You know the name Gnista has been out there so much and people find it and importers find it. So that's why Sweden Sweden is not ready Like.

Speaker 1:

This is a global non-alcoholic is a global trend, it's a way that sweeps across the globe. But it's, it's not even like you know some countries. And now, I'd say, like the past six months, there's a clear, you know Asia we're just about to launch in Taiwan and Thailand, but also Singapore, china is like waking up. So I'd say that region, the US, when we launched, there was nothing in the US. You know there were no, even though you'd be. I mean, there was Seedlip and other brands, but if you were a bar or restaurant and you wanted to order something quality, non-alcoholic, they wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to get hold of it, essentially. So then, and then we launched there, 2001. And since then it's just exploded in the States, but it's not, I'd say it's not, the same kind of preference that many countries in Europe have, so it's so. That's why I'm just waiting for Sweden.

Speaker 1:

I'm waiting for Sustainable Lager to wake up and be like yep the market is ready Because I'm making great drinks and I don't want to anyone. I'm just like offering them and anyone who wants to try, you know yeah, yeah, I am.

Speaker 2:

I just I'm surprised at that because, you know, sweet, as I was saying in the introduction, sweden is is not necessarily, um, to my, my, my, limited, so please correct me wherever I'm wrong. It's not a particularly big, big alcohol country, and buying alcohol isn't particularly easy in Sweden either. You know, compared to when you were living in the UK and you could just go into a supermarket and buy it whenever you want, there are a lot more restrictions around alcohol. So I would have thought that that would have lent the Swedes to be more open to these, uh, trying some new and interesting and amazing alternative drinks. I'm surprised at that.

Speaker 1:

Well, maybe, yeah, maybe, I mean we like the non-alcoholic beer culture is is very much alive, uh, I don't know why. I mean I know that in in scandinavia in general, like this is why the Nordic food trend and the, you know, has been so strong and there is, we have a lot of great non-alcoholic brands coming from, I'd say in particular, like you know, denmark and Southern Sweden, and which is interesting. I think that has to do with we're not, as you know, deep down in tradition, so like we have a few interesting methods from before, like fermentation, smoking, you know that sort of it's in our backbones, but we don't, we're not like Italy, where it would be, you know, more weird to create a proxy because you know where the wine trend or it is, it's, so it's such an important part of there. Um, now there is, I know, um, have you tried feral from italy not yet.

Speaker 2:

No, I know of it, but I haven't tried it yet yes, so it's.

Speaker 1:

I mean they they launched, I think, last year, so they're doing um. I mean there are a few interesting italian brands coming now as well, so it's happening over there as well. But I guess that's that's why we have so many interesting brands in in Scandinavia, and I'd say all of us. We export mostly yeah, yeah, um.

Speaker 2:

Back to, to um, the brand, uh, gnista, in particular. One thing you said earlier on that that resonated with me, as said you know, you're not trying to push this drink on people, you're not trying to convince them that they should have it. You're there for when people have recognized that it's time to try this. And on your website, I noticed that you have the phrase embarking on the join our impossible journey. Is that what you mean by that? How do you still feel that this join our impossible journey? Is that what you mean by that? How do you still feel that this is an impossible journey? Are you seeing the light now?

Speaker 1:

well, so the impossible journey has to do with, um, trying to push things. Like you know, that's where I've been since the start and I think I think I've been quite successful with that. I'm I'm super proud of what you know, what I've been doing, just doing something that was so different. I'm super proud of what you know, what I've been doing, just doing something that was so different from everything that was out there when you know when this started. And the impossible journey, I guess, has to do with trying to get the right kind of, you know, body and feel and taste, without making an imitation, right, because it's impossible to make an imitation, it's just going to be a less good version of the original. So that's the impossible journey. And do I think it's impossible? No, I don't think it's impossible. I think it takes time and I think that's sometimes very frustrating, because even though you do things and that is exactly what I said before and what you refer to now that is exactly what, what I said before and what you refer to now it's, if someone is not ready, you cannot like. All you can do is you can place those bottles when you have, you know, the big dinner and people can try it and they can be like oh, not that bad, and many will try my drinks and they'll be like who was this? But you know, once they keep drinking, they will enjoy it.

Speaker 1:

And it's I mean, it's, it's inevitable, because the ones who are reducing their intake um, once they realize that they will, you know, um, get better sleep and they will be able to look after their kids the day after in a better way, etc. They will not go back because alcohol is poison, right, like you know when, when I had two glasses now it's like oh, I cannot sleep, and blah, blah, blah. And you know, five years ago I could, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's. That is that. It's that you like. Yeah, it's when people are ready, they are ready and I think also like now there's so many great non-alcoholic brands there's, there's, seriously, at least you know, three for every occasion oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I smiled when you said that you know, now, when you have two glasses of of wine, it impacts you, and 10 years ago it was very different, because I'm not talking about the uk size I'm talking about so nothing ridiculous there, yeah, um, but that's.

Speaker 2:

That was part of my journey as well, because, you know, I come from, like I said, years of hospitality, years of partying. You know, and you're invincible when you're young. Even when you have the hangovers and whatnot, you can still, you know, jump back up and go right okay, I'm better, now, let's do it again. Now, let's do it again. And then, as we get older, for me, I found that, you know, the recovery took longer and the things I needed to do were more and more, more impacted.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to get your opinion on on this as well, because there's a lot of talk, isn't there, that it's millennials and it's Gen Z that are leading this low and low and light, not drinking leading this low and low and light, not drinking and the stats are true that the younger generations are consuming alcohol far less than than people of uh, gen x's like myself, um, but then, on the other hand, my, my counter is that they don't have any money, and you know, to put it bluntly, for this movement to continue, we need people to actually buy the drinks. That's the biggest challenge that every founder I speak to has. It's great, but people need to buy it. Looking on your Instagram, on your socials, your branding is very fresh, very stylish. Are you finding that you're getting a lot of the younger generation coming to you, or it more people that, like yourselves, are going?

Speaker 1:

I can't drink like I used to, like what yeah, no, I would say it's like you know the it's, it's a widespread right. So, when it comes to branding and like, uh, you know our universe it's. It's meant to appeal to many, right, because it's nostalgia, like we've all been there. If you're 70 now, well, you've been part of that, you know, rocking movement back in the days, so it's forever. But it's definitely for mostly for people 25, 30 plus who, as you say, have the money.

Speaker 1:

I'd say, like, if you look into the, the main target groups of people actually buying our drinks, we have the, the ones who used to drink too much, uh, and now want something uh. We have, um, the like, you know, artsy, cultural people in the in, in the bigger cities, uh, who, uh, want something stylish and just like reducing uh intake. We have, um, we have the women being married to the men, who normally had whiskey but their wives will be like, oh, but you know your heart is not great. So why don't you have this Monday to Thursday and then we can, you know, get the whiskey out on the weekend? So these are definitely the three most prominent target groups that we have.

Speaker 2:

That's interesting. That's interesting. That's one group that I haven't given much consideration to, that group that's buying on behalf of somebody that they care about you know I go this. This is going to be really good for you. This is going to help you out and you can save your other one.

Speaker 1:

For you know a different occasion, yeah, and I mean, and they these are people who have, you know, a long relationship with wine and whiskeys, and you know, they know what they like, they have money. And if Nista would be a shifted product, well, you know a long relationship with wine and whiskeys and you know, they know what they like, they have money. And if Nista would be a shitty product, well, you know they wouldn't buy it. So it's, I mean, it all comes down to quality as well, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and that's that's a really. It's a really honest point, because there are a lot of brands coming into the low, no and light space at the moment, and there are the cynic in me sees some big brands that are just jumping on the bandwagon, some independents that are just seeing an opportunity, as well as all the people that are genuinely passionate about what they're doing. But ultimately, time will tell. Right, as you say, if it's a shitty drink, people aren't going to buy it, so it's the quality that's going to win out above all else.

Speaker 1:

It actually worked both ways, I think. When it comes to the UK, the UK, I find it's such a tricky market. Yeah, I mean, we're now with Weiss Bartender, before that we Tim at Sirius Zip imported, and before that we had Strongwell. So, um, an italian guy, and for me it's like, well, you know, this is like the, this is the birth of non-alcohol. Right, you know, the uk and people care and there are lots of brands, but it's also terribly difficult when it comes to the, the thresholds for getting in and the competition and like you have to pay by your place, partnerships and very hard, um, but anyway, what was I gonna say?

Speaker 2:

uh, yeah, it's. I think you're right. Getting into shops on the shelves in the spaces in the UK, it's, it's a challenge. It's a challenge that I hear time and time and time and time again um, and it's a financial challenge. It's that burden of going. I want to have my drink in front of people so that they can try it, and then, when they try it, they'll buy some more. But you have to pay for that privilege.

Speaker 2:

And small brands don't have the budget to pay for that privilege, even successful brands. You know, until you're up there with the and can compete with the likes of the, the diageos and the sahis, um, you're not gonna get no, no, I remember my point.

Speaker 1:

I remember my point. Now, go for it. The point is that when you have all these partnerships and you know the, the bars need to choose a certain supplier. Well, they have to choose, um, you know, diagee, for example. It's very, you know, limited or, yeah, um, but but these brands, they have money too as well, you know they. The upside is that they will help to create this base, build it like when we launched I launched at the um, I was talking at the some kind of you know brings innovation conference in london and there was many, so many questions about.

Speaker 1:

You know, well, what is this non-lack spirit? Will it work? Blah, blah, blah. But then you know these, all of these big brands. You realized, well, you know they, they're going to join, they're going to buy the little ones or they're going to make their own drinks, which means, you know it's, it's going to get legit, um, uh, all of this. So that's the upside. The downside is that if someone goes to buy, you know, one of these non-alcoholic gins from one of the you know bigger ones and they will be disappointed, well, they, you know it'll be harder for them and take longer for them to go back and try something new.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's, it's. It seems that people aren't as forgiving when it comes to trying no and no as they are with other categories of things. I often use the example of if you go to a restaurant and you have a burger and it's not cooked the way you want it, you don't then swear off all burgers and never go to a restaurant again. You go all right. Well, that one was crap. I'm I'm not going there next week, let's try the one over there. But with low and no, you tend to find that people are like oh well, I tried this, uh, alcohol-free red wine and it was rubbish. So they're all rubbish.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, is that gonna be true? But it's, it's also. It's also crazy wild, wild west out there. Like you know, there are so few regulations. There are regulations when it comes to beer, when it comes to wine, but you know, other than that you can like as a consumer, if you go into any of these shops in New York or Amsterdam or London, I mean, you just see lots and lots of brands and it's all quite expensive and you don't know like, oh, you get something that's very mild, something that's, you know, refreshing, something that's sweet, sour. A lot of stuff is sour. I tried, when I was in the state last time, I tried one of the leading non-alcohol whiskey brands and it didn't like there was nothing with whiskey about it. So it's. I can also see how. I guess you know this is gonna fix itself with regulations and you know when, when, when the governments, um, will, you know, catch us? Um, it's gonna take time.

Speaker 2:

It's going to take time because you know, back to, to using the example of wines or champagnes, you know this is centuries, centuries of production and processes and trial and error and going right. We found what works and this is why winemakers are so passionate about what they do, staying this way. Because you know there's all this history into it, and even beer. You know if you're into it, and even even beer, you know if you're um trying to make it.

Speaker 2:

The traditional german the word I can never say the the the reingehauke started standard production. That's not how you say it. Don't anyone try to repeat that. Um, but you know, there are these rules and traditions about how you make things. But with low and no, we don't have that yet. We don't have that. That set standards of this is how a non-alc spirit should be and this is how a non-alcoholic spirit should be and this is how a non-alcoholic wine should be. But I think it's going to take time, right, it's going to take brands like yours working with other brands going. This is what's made the best drink. Let's come together and and say that this is the standard that we are willing to accept, and anyone who's not going to produce to this standard, then they need to think about whether they're in the right industry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and also, you know, at the end of the day, it's up to the consumer, right? So, like, all I can do is to be like okay, so before dinner, as nepotism, you want something that's bitter herb? Why? Well, with dinner if, if you have red or white something, it's meant to be this and that with that food, well, why? And then you know, at the end of the day, if the consumers say like oh no, you know, it's not for me, I want something, well then, then that's it and that's it yeah, um, you mentioned food.

Speaker 2:

Um, and you mentioned food previously and ingredients, um, talk to me a little bit about your process of, because you use quite a lot of natural ingredients. You're very passionate about your drinks being able to be particularly your wine styles being able to use, be used with food, right, that's a big part of what you want people to enjoy.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's, I guess it's. I just I wanted to be as natural as I can, so it's all natural, with the exception of um, of preservatives, um, and that's the reason why was that I wanted, you know, I have these strange products called barrel oak and floral wormwood, uh, but at least, like, at least they come in a spirit bottle and like, at least you can store them, you know, behind you, um, at the, at the shelf, um. So that's why and this is actually proven to be a very good selling point when it comes to the not wines, the reds, uh, and in particular, for restaurants, because what happens is they don't have that many customers wanting a glass of red, and so they open the bottle and you know it will last for three days. So then you know you need to bin it, but all of my drinks, they just, they just get better with age, um, so this is, this is super nice, but, yeah, it's, it's more like um.

Speaker 1:

You know, well, you need some kind of acidity. Well, which acidity is the best? Well, you know, we have black currant leaves, that's fantastic. We have rhubarb, it's uh, oxalic acid. So it's not citric but it's acid. Fine, let's use rhubarb juice. How can we do that the best way we want. Uh, uh, we want to. You know mouthfeel. Well, you know we have sugar beets out on the fields here in sweden. Let's use them, let's use like regular syrup. Uh, you have no idea how many, how many.

Speaker 1:

You know super fine bars I've been into and I've had, like you know, the italian bar manager, like pouring a small glass and like you know, whirling, like you know, in his you know the Italian bar manager, like pouring a small glass and like you know, whirling like mmm, so in his, you know, in the back of his head, like this is quality. Yeah, you know that's just syrup, but you know it's all natural. I want that kind of length and the burn. So in that sense, what you have, we have a ginger, fresh ginger that goes into the main brew. We have a very floral single-state black pepper called bingling, so it's very floral. And then I also make everything is handmade with Nista an extract like a habanero extract. So basically, what you get then, then first you get the ginger and then you get the black pepper and then you get the habanero to stay with you. So that's that's how I, how I try to.

Speaker 1:

So it's it's like you know puzzling it's. It's more like, it's more like just you know cooking a fine meal, like how you know what should we put in and how can we treat those ingredients in the best way, and then just putting it and then filtering it. Otherwise it would look crap. I mean, you still have some bottles I'm not sure with yours. Some bottles are very clear, some bottles are not, so that it's uh, it depends a little bit of where in the when the big pot, like the liquid came from, um, so, which I guess also is fine. So just like adding it, filtering it. So it's handmade extracts. There are different juices, nfc, it's all basically like, yeah, we have the ginger and the pepper coming from Asia, but the rest is from Europe, mostly Northern Europe, lots and lots of different herbs, just you know. Again, a meal like what matches, what goes well, what we like work with what. And when I was in London last at the wine, the one in Olympia, the wine show.

Speaker 2:

Oh, the wine trade show, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Speciality one. I had like the ivy collection coming over and and the buyer and he smelled my italian uh, and he said, well, it smells just like baba ganoush. Like oh, okay, does it? And I'm like yeah, it does, it's. It's also fun. You know how these, how these flavors develop and how they marry with you know with what ingredients you mix them with or which foods you serve them with, the temperature it's yeah, it's exciting.

Speaker 2:

I think you've done an amazing job. I love your uh, your approach, um, and that your your real focus is on producing something that's not an alternative, but can be used in any moment that you just want something that's unique, and they are unique and adult and wonderful. So you've done a fantastic job. If people want to get a bottle here in the UK or anywhere else, where are the best places to go for them to either buy online or to get to know more about Ginsta and yourself?

Speaker 1:

Okay, so Weiss Bartender is the place to buy, and I know they're out of stock of the Italian now. They'll hopefully restock soon. The best way to get information is ginstaspiritscom, and it's interesting before Brexit the UK was by far the biggest buyers from our webshop, but now we don't have it open. It's just too costly for everyone oh, oh gosh, my camera's overheating.

Speaker 2:

Can you still hear me? Yeah, yeah, I can hear you and I can see some lovely colors but we don't yeah, my camera just overheated because of the temperature.

Speaker 2:

That's crazy. It looks so fresh and so cool. It's plugged in. There's not much I can do about that. I'm going to. Even though you can't see me anymore, you can still hear me. So I'm going to ask you my final question, which I ask every founder that comes on the show, because I am all about spreading the love to all of Lono Nation. So it is summertime. There are barbecues and picnics happening everywhere. I'm sure you've got your fair share to go to. If you're off for a nice relaxing day with family and friends and you're wanting to take something that's low or no or light alcohol other than obviously you're fantastic not wines and not spirits what else do you like to enjoy that is low, no or light?

Speaker 1:

The only drink that I have actually like that's not water is kombuchas, and I mean you tell me there's so many fantastic kombucha brands and for everyone who thought that, well, kombucha is just like something for your gut to feel well and like have a little bit of, I mean the way that that market has evolved and the fantastic sip friendly drinks today, I think that's incredible. So that's definitely my choice.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic, great, great, great choice. And you're right, there are so many to to choose from. Uh. I was interviewing uh, david beg from real uh just a couple of weeks ago. Um, and his is one of the most recommended kombuchas whenever I speak to people, although he doesn't like to specify himself as a kombucha, more of just a sparkling tea, fermented tea drink, um, but there are lots of amazing ones out there I haven't tried, but yeah, I mean, but they are quite widely accessible, um and, and they are again like slow burners, which I like you, you pour them chilled and they last lasts for a long time absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Um oh no, there I am. Uh, the power automatically turned off since the temperature of the device rose. Okay, all right. Well, why don't we wrap this up before you? It sounds like a great point to end the conversation, erica. Thank you so much for joining me today. Sorry, sorry about those technical difficulties, but that's the modern age we live in.

Speaker 2:

And, yeah, what can I do? It's been lovely speaking to you. I'm really impressed by a lot of your story, the way you've gone about making your drink and making sure that you are providing something that is going to be special, that is going to give people what they want, that's going to allow bartenders to play and make amazing cocktails. And I must say to everyone who's watching and listening to go and check out, uh, the Guinness website, because there are some amazing cocktail recipes on there. Um, and they look stunning and they taste great. I bet they do. They do, uh. Thank you very much, my dear. Have a great day. Thank you, denise Bye.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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