#75. Beyond Wine: Creating Category-Less Drinks with Muri

This week I'm joined by Murray Patterson, founder of Muri - a unique range of fermented non-alcoholic drinks designed for wine occasions. Murray shares his fascinating journey from a soul-crushing corporate job at JP Morgan to discovering his passion for fermentation in the cider industry before relocating to Copenhagen - a global hub for fermentation expertise.

At Muri, they're breaking free from simply mirroring alcoholic drinks, instead using chef-led techniques and complex fermentation processes to create genuinely original flavour profiles. Murray explains their painstaking methods, from carbonically macerating strawberries to lacto-fermenting beetroot and creating tomato wine. We discuss the challenges of naming this new category, the thriving low-no scene in Copenhagen, and Murray's mission to bring craft and premiumisation to non-alcoholic drinks.

WE CHAT ABOUT
0:00 Doing things differently at Muri
2:35 Murray's story
6:24 Breaking away from banking
8:07 The low/no inspiration behind Muri
10:22 Who is Muri for?
13:52 Not a wine alternative
15:41 Naming a category
18:38 12 Michelin stars
20:40 How it's made
24:01 Blending funky flavours
27:46 Fermentation & other techniques
29:53 Muri & food
32:25 The low/no scene in Copenhagen
35:51 Challenges of London/international distribution
37:25 Was premiumisation the goal?
41:25 Finding Muri
42:51 The BBQ-Q

WE ALSO TALK ABOUT:
To Öl
Botivo*
Rapscallion Soda
Ish*
Copenhagen Sparkling Tea*
Sylva
Ama Brewery

MURI-DRINKS.COM  //  @MURIDRINKS

BEST EPISODE TO CHECK OUT NEXT
#14 Unfiltered Journeys in Fermentation with Ama Brewery

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*Some links are affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may earn a commission that helps me keep the show going. Thank you.

Transcript

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Doing things differently at Muri

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello , hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low-No Drinker podcast , bringing you closer to the people , places and brands leading the low , no and light alcohol revolution . This week I am delighted to finally be in conversation with the lovely Murray Patterson , founder of Murie . I've had requests from listeners and recommendations from brand founders to get this gentleman on the show and have a chat about his fantastic brand and , after several months of diary tennis from both of us , I'm very glad to say that it's finally happening . So what exactly is Muri ?

Speaker 1 0:36

Well , I'm going to let Murray tell you in his own words shortly , but what I can tell you is that it is a very unique , handcrafted with care wine moment alternative that I highly recommend . It is made with passion to be accompaniment with food to help you enjoy those moments when you're looking for something that is adult but just doesn't happen to have any alcohol in it . So I'm going to bend his ear about his journey , about how the brand came to be and a little bit about some of the background into the fermentation process and the production process so that you can find out more about it . So thank you very much for joining me , murray . How are you today , my lovely ?

Speaker 2 1:17

I am absolutely delighted to be here . Denise , thanks very much for having me on . I would say that we need to talk about getting you on as our marketing and comms consultant , because the way you described our drinks there was much better than anything I've ever come up with .

Speaker 1 1:32

We can talk after the show . That's fine . No , but to be honest , you know , this is just . I genuinely have . So I taste all the drinks of the people that come on the show , because I need to know what I'm talking about and I was blown away . You know , I've only tasted two from the range and they're absolutely stunning and very , very unique . And I like getting brands , founders , on the show that bring something different , that isn't just your same old same old , because people are looking for so much character and quality and diversity in their non-alcoholic drinks and it's nice to speak to somebody who's doing that . So well done to you guys .

Speaker 2 2:11

Cheers . Yeah , we're trying to bring a few new things to the party , so to speak . The old non-alcoholic category is kind of driven by being a mirror image of alcohol . Non-alcoholic category is kind of driven by being a mirror image of alcohol . We're trying to kind of break free from that . I suppose that's our mission .

Speaker 1 2:31

Well , I think you're definitely on the right path with that . So

Murray's story

Speaker 1 2:35

I always like to start by asking my guests to share some of their journey that led them to creating their brand , and then we'll jump into more about it itself . But we were talking just before we press record . You're in Copenhagen now , which is where Murie is produced . What was that journey that's led you to to being in this position that you are now ?

Speaker 2 2:58

Well , I mean , as you can probably tell by the accent , I've spent most of my most of my life in london . Um , I was working in a variety of really kind of dreary corporate jobs and I was .

Speaker 2 3:11

I found my kind of crazy mind finds these office environments quite surreal . I was super , super down and wanted to go and pursue my passion in in food and drink um and one , and one day just quit and went off and tried to find my way into drinks , ended up kind of falling into cider . Did a variety of jobs in the UK cider industry Everything from picking apples in orchards through to doing a bit of import-export actually making the drinks and it was there that I really kind of fell in love with fermentation . There are some amazing UK cider producers , particularly out in the West Country , who make drinks in every bit as excellent a way as classic winemakers , and seeing how they were doing was super inspiring for me . Classic winemakers and seeing how they were doing was super inspiring for me and I was looking around for where I could go and train with experts in fermentation on a kind of slightly more innovative level just to kind of classic cider , and all roads kind of pointed towards Copenhagen . After doing my research , just Copenhagen kind of stands out as a place that has really become a kind of melting pot for not just gastronomy but fermentation expertise particularly , and I guess it's really kind of down to this one restaurant that you almost certainly have heard of , called Noma . It's been one of the kind of standout restaurants globally for the last kind of 10 , 20 years and the kind of legacy that restaurant has had on the Copenhagen fermentation scene is amazing .

Speaker 2 4:54

Two alumni from Noma there was the head of the test kitchen . This guy called Lars Williams left Noma to start a spirits company called empirical and they were doing like crazy nomery things with forest ingredients and weird fermentation techniques and weird , weird kind of gastronomic ideas and applying it to booze . I thought that sounded really cool . Just so happened they were coming to London to do a tasting and I I went along and had a few drinks and managed to persuade Lars to give me a job , which was super weird given I had absolutely zero distillery experience .

Speaker 2 5:33

But yeah , that was seven years ago now . So went over to , went over to Copenhagen and kind of haven't looked back and I would say kind of that training period I worked at Empirical for just over a year was kind of fundamental to the DNA of what I subsequently started up with Murray . So this kind of chef-led approach to building flavour , taking exceptional ingredients , many of them foraged , and working them like a chef might , um , including fermentation techniques to try and uh get the best , get the best flavor possible . Um , so that was kind of that was the early thinking behind it .

Breaking away from banking

Speaker 1 6:24

That's quite a bold step . So you just sort of one day went that's it , I've had enough , I'm leaving the corporate world . And you decided to venture on to Pastures New . I think that kind of reflects in the boldness of your drinks . That must be just sort of innate in your character .

Speaker 2 6:41

It wasn't through any degree of bravery , it was just through complete desperation , like I . I was I'd . It was basically you're kind of a rock bottom and there's no other option other than to do something completely different , just because you can't carry on . I was working this bank , jp morgan , up in canary wharf and I was sitting there . I physically can't do this anymore . It's just , it's too much . So it was a sense of kind of cowardly desperation rather than bravery , denise .

Speaker 1 7:10

Oh , I don't know . I don't know . You know , because I think there are so , because a lot of research that I do and I listen to a lot of podcasts , obviously for building Loner Drinker and they're building the magazine and the podcast , you know . So it's all about entrepreneurship and things , and you know , you look at the numbers of the people that , uh , hate their jobs or that they are sort of just fed up with their lives but don't do anything about it . You know , I think you know to take that step and go . Do you know what ? Screw this . I'm not doing this anymore . This is not working for for me .

Speaker 2 7:40

Yeah that's well . I mean , there's always . There's always kind of a bit of a worry that you know you , you know you're gonna be unemployed and you'll never find a job again . I mean , I just resolved in my mind that it couldn't possibly be any worse . So so I managed to do it um and um and it was great . You know , I haven't I haven't kind of looked back as easily . The best thing I've ever done .

Speaker 1 8:05

That's amazing . That's amazing

The low/no inspiration behind Muri

Speaker 1 8:07

. So tell me then how the concepts , because obviously you've talked your way into this job . You've moved to Copenhagen because you're really excited about fermentation and we'll come back to that in a bit but how did that all lead to you ?

Speaker 2 8:32

going right . I've decided that what I want to do with all of this interest and passion and excitement is make this brand of drinks for people . I mean , I think Murray was initially actually conceived as an alcoholic drink , but I think , having had an experience in the UK cider industry , which is very , very , very traditional , the Nolo space just seemed like a , and I think this still is very , very true . It's a great place to innovate and try new things and you know , as I was saying to you before , I still think too much of the category is driven by being being this mirror image of alcohol , um , and we haven't quite taken advantage of the fact that , you know , the whole space is just this blank slate for for trying new things .

Speaker 2 9:17

And , um , you know , I've always wanted to start my start , my own company , um , and I just thought the stuff that I'd learned at Empirical and their kind of obsessive approach to flavor could make a compelling product for the Nolo space and kind of make things a bit more interesting and a bit more kind of flavor-focused rather than focusing on the non-alcoholic quality per se . So there was kind of lots of strands kind of floating around about what we were going to do , but you know , kind of condensed into this idea that we were going to try this as a no-low drink . We still might do alcohol in the future , actually , to be honest , but um it , the non-alcohol space is just . It's perfect to try new , almost category-less um drinks at the moment .

Speaker 1 10:18

Um , so , yeah , it worked out quite well I think that's

Who is Muri for?

Speaker 1 10:22

a really interesting point that you make about not everything needs to be a mirror image of alcohol , because , you're right , in this space , it is almost like just a playground for people like you who've kind of gone like , right , I've got this idea . What if I put this with this and I blended this together and I made this ? What would that be like ? And you're not then constrained by centuries of tradition of this is how it has to be , um , and that allows you to make things that serve different needs for different people yeah because not everybody's doing this is doing this because they want to stay away from alcohol .

Speaker 1 11:09

Are you finding that , with what you're doing and the people that you're speaking to , that they are mostly sort of coming from a sobriety element , from a just wanting something different element ? Who is it that Murray is reaching ?

Speaker 2 12:04

I mean a great question . I mean at the moment , um , well , I would say , initially , our , our challenge was to get to make a product that drinkers wanted to try so curious . You know , one of our marketing personas is , you know , the curious foodie , um , and we try and speak to to um , less the curious foodie , and we try and speak to less people who are approaching it from a sobriety aspect and more people who are probably more mindful in their drinking choices and those who , you know , don't want to compromise on flavour , open to trying new things on flavour , open to trying new things , and through those we're reaching a kind of broad audience of people who are sober for whatever reason . But yeah , our challenge is to make something compelling that even drinkers would want to try because it is delicious and sounds interesting and has a good kind of backstory to it .

Speaker 1 13:08

I like that making something compelling , and it does sound delicious and compelling . So , before we go too far down , that tell me then . Um ,

Not a wine alternative

Speaker 1 13:15

what exactly is Muri ? Because , as you said before about you know , things being category-less . Um , how do you describe your brand for people ?

Speaker 2 13:24

oh god , it's tough , isn't it ? I mean you did a much better job of it earlier than I'm going to . I mean , it's a complex , non-alcoholic fermented drink designed to fit the wine occasion , but because that doesn't really necessarily roll off the tongue , we're more or less fixed at the moment on calling it a wine alternative . Okay , but I mean from from speaking to um , you know founders of other of other wine alternative brands , everyone hates these terms . I mean , no one really wants to be known as a wine alternatives because we end up putting so much work into making the drinks taste nice and you know our drinks don't taste anything like wine and you don't want to be known as a kind of substitute as it feels like it's got a lesser version of something else . So there's so much chat going around between the founders in our category about can we come up with a name that's a bit better than Wine Alternative or Prophecy or Substitute or whatever .

Speaker 1 14:27

But we haven't managed it yet . Denise , Okay , that was my question .

Speaker 2 14:30

It's what it is . I mean really . It's just we're just trying to make a drink that kind of can fit this wine occasion . I wouldn't say , you know , as I say , they don't taste anything like wine . I wouldn't say , you know , as I say , they don't taste anything like wine . So it's really tough . It's a really tough part of the growth of the category actually is kind of figuring out what we actually call this .

Speaker 1 14:58

It is . The language is because it's so important , isn't it ? You know that people can use words that

Naming a category

Speaker 1 15:04

they recognize and that they understand to find your drinks and that they know when they're supposed to use it . But if you do , you're right . If you do call it a wine alternative , you put that word wine in someone's head and they're going to go in , going OK , well , I like a cab sav . Is this like a cab sav ? You're like no , no , no , no , no , it's not the same thing have you're like no , no , no , no , it's not the same thing .

Speaker 2 15:28

Yeah , totally .

Speaker 2 15:28

I mean we when we first started we we kind of consciously , um , tried to pick ingredients that would mimic wine . So we , we used things like oak chips and we even thought about using tobacco at one point and that we canned that pretty quickly . But , um , you know how the words people use to describe wine we were kind of using those ingredients leather and things like that and we , it just didn't work for us and it kind of felt disingenuous really to try and copy wine in any way . I love drinking wine and it's a big source of inspiration , but I kind of almost have too much respect for it to try and copy it , if that makes sense . So , increasingly , more and more're creating drinks , um , that are getting further and further away from from that wine flavor profile and it feels , you know , as we're doing that in terms of the flavors , we also need to do that in terms of the terminology . So trying to figure out how we can come up with , um , a category definition that doesn't mention the w word is , uh , is tricky , yeah it is .

Speaker 1 16:45

It is because you know what do you do . How do you communicate that ? And then the thing is , you know they always say the best thing to do is to ask your consumer , ask your customer , but unfortunately consumers don't have the answers either , because they're like well , I like wine , so I want something that's like a wine yeah and then you want them to be able to go into a shop or onto on online or to search it and know what words to put in .

Speaker 1 17:07

And , like you said , it's a very thorough description . But you know , a fermented drink for those wine occasions with complexity and depth is a really long tail keyword .

Speaker 2 17:16

Oh , it's a nightmare . Yeah mean we really struggle with it . I mean our drinks are kind of we'll probably get into it , but I mean they're quite complex to make .

Speaker 2 17:26

We're using a ton of , like different fermentation techniques and tons of different ingredients and you know I feel sorry for the sommelier who are kind of pouring it in the restaurants because I mean you're kind of standing there . I mean it in in the restaurants because I mean you're kind of standing there , I mean you could be standing there for 10 minutes kind of talking about it and it's actually you're trying to distill that into a quick , digestible messages yeah um , it's something I know .

Speaker 1 17:50

Everyone , everyone struggles with okay , well , let's talk about these drinks themselves then . So , uh , for those of you who are watching on youtube , behind me you can see a couple of bottles uh of

12 Michelin stars

Speaker 1 18:01

from from the , from the murray range . So I'd love , murray , for you to take us a bit through the range , or we can start with these ones here , if you like , because , um , I've I've tasted these two and my absolute favorite , I've got to make sure I pick up the right bottle now , um , is this one ? I picked up the bottle that's open , so I've got to be really careful that I don't spill it anywhere . So this is a strawberry , tomato and smoked vanilla drink and it's absolutely unique . I have never tasted anything like it . Cool , how did you come up with that ? I mean , let's start there .

Speaker 2 18:40

Yeah , this was probably our hardest one to make um . It's a collaboration that we did with a wonderful chef called and sophie peak , who's the most michelin starred um woman in the world . I think she's got something like absolutely ludicrous like 12 michelin stars wow um in restaurants all over the place .

Speaker 2 18:59

She is a wonderful woman , true inspiration to us , and it's been well , her sommelier actually particularly has been a big supporter of what we've been doing and we just asked if we could do a collab . We love doing collabs with other chefs and gastronomic personalities . It keeps us kind of fresh . We're nerds at the end of the day . We love kind of nerding out with other nerds . And , yeah , she just wanted something exceptional for her guests as an aperitif and we tried a bunch .

Speaker 2 19:38

It took us three years on the R&D but we tried a bunch of things and came up with this idea of strawberries and cream , and so it's a good example of actually how we kind of apply gastronomic chef technique to drinks actually . So we take Danish strawberries and ferment them in three different ways with the yeast . We kind of carbonically macerate them or kind of explode them

How it's made

Speaker 2 20:03

almost in CO2 . And then we lacto-ferment strawberries as well . So we've got a kind of three-way strawberry fermentation that forms the basis of the drink . That forms the basis of the drink . We get a creaminess in there by acidulating yogurt to separate the solids from the liquid and we use the way we caramelize , that way that we then macerate in the strawberry wine and then we give it a bit of umami depth .

Speaker 2 20:36

We're trying to get a bit the strawberries and cream is obviously super fun . We try and get a bit of like umami depth . We're trying to get a bit the strawberries and cream is obviously super fun . We try and get a bit of like umami um smokiness . So we um crush cherry tomatoes and then freeze them and then , as they thaw , we take the , the clarified tomato essence that we ferment with the yeast to turn into a kind of tomato wine that we blend with the strawberries . It gives this kind of just gives it a bit of depth to it , and and then we smoke some vanilla pods over some beechwood and it gives it kind of a little bit of grown-upness , which is needed Because I think most people if they taste it . Do you remember when you were a kid ? Did you ever have those like pissy Falloon yogurts ?

Speaker 1 21:15

Oh , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 2 21:16

Everyone says it tastes like them . They're like oh , it's pissy Falloon . I don't think Anne-Sophie Peake having 12 Michigan Stars was necessarily too chuffed .

Speaker 1 21:24

That's not what she was going for .

Speaker 2 21:25

No , yeah yeah , exactly so . Yeah , it just gives it a bit of kind of grown-up character , but I mean it's a fun one . It's like strawberries and cream in a drink yeah , literally in a drink , yeah , literally .

Speaker 1 21:45

Um , so that's uh , that's our most recent drink and um , yeah , the kind of toughest , toughest to make . That's really . I mean , you said you said a lot of words there that , uh , sounded really really technical and , like you know , sounds like you're doing sort of um , I've got visions of like a lab , a scientific lab , and you're sort of exploding things with co2 and you're blending and mixing things together . It sounds like you're just having like loads of fun with like strange ingredients and see what comes up .

Speaker 2 22:08

That's it it's , it's , it's yeah , as I say , we're just , I mean we're the whole team , we're a bunch of chefs , basically I'm I'm the only one who's not um , I was a distiller , but we're just complete food nerds . We just love geeking out with these new things . But I mean , there is the kind of theory behind it is .

Speaker 2 22:30

I know as a former alcohol distiller it's much , much , much easier to make booze taste nice and get like a weight of flavour . Alcohol both absorbs and delivers flavour so much better than water that you've got to work much harder to make non-alcoholic drinks taste nice . So you know this idea that we're applying everything that we know as chefs and distillers and people who have worked in restaurants to try and get the best out of the ingredient and get a kind of concentration of flavor . That's . That's kind of why we do the crazy stupid shit that we do to , just to try and you know , to try and get this , this depth to it .

Speaker 1 23:16

I love that , and I love it reminds me of something that I read on your website , which I'm just going to read here , which says at murie , we use different liquids for specific purposes relating

Blending funky flavours

Speaker 1 23:24

to taste and structure , and it says we carefully piece these together to build up layers of flavor , funk and complexity .

Speaker 2 23:31

and I love it you're bringing the funk yeah , I mean the .

Speaker 2 23:35

The blending idea kind of really is derived from when I was working . Cider Cider makers blend different varieties of fermented apple together to , you know , have a bitter one , a sour one . They'll piece them together to kind of build up something that's kind of complex and whole . And then I was working at Empirical and they obviously fractionalize things through distillation and then blend things together . So we kind of view it almost as kind of like building up a piecing together a wall using different bricks of flavor to try and create something that has a kind of dynamism of flavor , is hitting all your kind of taste receptors and feels kind of alive in the mouth .

Speaker 1 24:29

I love that . I love that . Tell me about what else is in the range , then , so that was my favorite one there .

Speaker 2 24:32

But what else have you got ? Yeah , see , it's quite a long-winded description to kind of say what they're about . The other one you've got behind you there is the Four Horsemen collab . Four Horsemen's a restaurant in Brooklyn . It's kind of well-known in America for its amazing wine list , so we're super fortunate to do a collab with them . It's owned by LCD Sound System for any of you old ravers out there . Sound system for any of you old ravers out there .

Speaker 2 25:03

Um , and that's , uh , it's danish sour cherries , um , that we take , uh make into a wine . We add some lacto-fermented beetroot , we actually add the same tomato wine that's in the answer for big one , and it's got a water kefir with some bay leaf and , uh , green peppercorns . So it's a bit like a kind of Cabernet Franc style , a little bit peppery , nice silky texture . The reds still reds are very hard to do because as soon as you see something that's red in your glass you're expecting that kind of like weight . Yeah , so we're really pleased with how that one came out . It still has a kind of nice mouthfeel and texture . But the other ones , the other , so that's two .

Speaker 2 25:45

So we've got another four in the range that are all kind of similar blends of local berries and some forage botanicals . So we quite often go to the woods . It's still winter so we haven't been out yet this year , but in a month or so we'll start heading into the woods to start getting botanicals that we then dry and use in the drinks as well . But then we started to do . We started to mess around with rice and sake and amazake styles , which were working really well for us , really delicious . So we cook rice and we'll grow this mold called koji on it that turns it into sake more or less , and start blending that rice with other different components as well . So we're really looking to kind of other parts of the world for inspiration and not just doing the same thing using kind of Danish berries , which is what we've been up to , what we've been doing up to now Trying to look to places like South America , africa and Asia for new ideas and inspiration for different non-alcoholic drinks that we can start experimenting with .

Speaker 1 27:01

Exciting , exciting . I wanted to ask you you used the term lacto-fermented a couple of times . In layman's

Fermentation & other techniques

Speaker 1 27:09

terms , what is fermentation and how is it used to produce these drinks ?

Speaker 2 27:17

That's a complex one . Fermentation to us is just a tool to make stuff taste nice . So we harness the power of microorganisms to create flavor and we use multiple different types of culture um to to do that . So we use we use yeast commonly . Um , we , we use a wine yeast that doesn't really produce any alcohol in all our drinks . That's great . It produces kind of like sauvignon blanc kind of flavors . It doesn't produce any booze .

Speaker 2 27:51

We use symbiotic cultures of bacteria and yeast , so the yeast will eat the sugar and poop out alcohol and then the bacteria will turn the alcohol into acids . We , yeah , lacto-ferment things . We kind of salt cure ingredients to kind of make them sour and mummy , like sauerkraut , for example , or kimchi . We'll pickle things . So we take in one of our drinks , we pickle rhubarb and then we use the rhubarb in a wine and then we also add a bit of the pickle liquor to kind of bump the acidity . So we're using a ton of different kind of ton of different types of fermentation um to just to try and , um , yeah , get some complexity um fermented stuff's generally .

Speaker 2 28:51

You know , fermentation is make stuff delicious um I think quite . You know , I certainly didn't . Before I started off in drinks I didn't actually realize how widely fermentation is used to make pretty much everything that tastes delicious , delicious .

Speaker 1 29:09

You mentioned a lot of amazing ingredients . Obviously , you've talked about strawberries . You've talked about foraging your rhubarb , which I absolutely

Muri & food

Speaker 1 29:17

love , your rhubarb , which I absolutely love . Talk to me a little bit about the connection with what you're doing and with food , because obviously , as you mentioned earlier on , food is a big part of life in Copenhagen and you've got amazing restaurants that are world renowned for what they do . I know it's important to you guys , right , that your bottles can complement that dining experience .

Speaker 2 29:42

Yeah , I mean it's funny , isn't it ? There's there seems to kind of to be a real obsession in in our category , the the wine alternative category , for , like , making sure , um , the drinks compare with , pair with foods . And just from chatting with my winemakers , it's funny because they I mean they , they would never , when you're making a wine , you would never think really about how it would match with a dish and , to be honest , I don't really think we do either . The challenge is to get a concentration of flavour , I think that allows it to pair with food . It's really , as I was saying , it's pretty hard to do that in non-alcoholic drinks and , um , I don't necessarily think we we have a particular food in mind when , when we're making something , but we do , we we have in mind that we need to get it flavorful enough that people will be able to enjoy it , enjoy it with food . Um , we were thinking of trying to make a drink from fish to pair specifically with fish from absolutely rank .

Speaker 2 30:51

So we can , we can that idea . It was made with , like fish bones and seaweed and um , yeah , that was one of the many failed experiments that we , that we did , but um other than that we've never really specifically kind of tried to match anything well , Well , I mean I chuckle , but isn't it whale bladder that's used in traditional wines to sort of still them or something ?

Speaker 1 31:17

So I suppose it's not that far off , although it sounds a little bit more soupy than winey .

Speaker 2 31:23

Yeah , yeah , no , it's we . When I was at Empirical , we made a spirit from oysters . We chucked oysters into booze and then distilled it out and it was absolutely delicious . It's harder to do without the alcohol , sadly .

Speaker 1 31:40

I can imagine . I can imagine , if we may change track just a little bit . So you're in Copenhagen . You told me earlier

The low/no scene in Copenhagen

Speaker 1 31:48

on that you've been there for seven years . That you said um , I'm always interested . I I call those who who participate in the lono drinker platforms lono nation , because you know this is a worldwide thing that's going on .

Speaker 1 32:03

I'm always interested when I get people on who are in different places to find out a little bit of what the the lono and light alcohol scene is like where they are . I told you before that I did go to Copenhagen once years and years ago with my boyfriend at the time . He's now my husband . We did break up on the trip , but it all turned out okay .

Speaker 2 32:21

It's going to be a sad story .

Speaker 1 32:27

But there was a lot of full strength boozing involved for us at that time , so I don't really recall what the scene is like . What's it like for Lono and Light over there ?

Speaker 2 32:36

It's buzzing , denise . Yeah , I mean it's got a great scene . I mean you've heard of Ish . I think they're one of the biggest globally . They're doing really well . Copenhagen Sparkling Tea is doing fantastically , um , all over the world . I think they're doing really great in asia now , but they , they started off here , um , and then there is a bunch of really great uh , very grassroots um kombucha producers , um making really great kombuchas out of foraged ingredients from the woods around here and yeah , I think the scene in general is excellent . The restaurants here take it super seriously . I would say probably the majority of the really good ones now have the non-alcohol pairing priced similarly or at the same level as the alcohol . People kind of like have this non-binary approach to working their way through a night's drinking . Alcohol and non-alcohol wines sake different things and I think there's a kind of maturity to the scene here . That is really nice , I guess , this kind of mindful approach to dipping in and out of alcohol and non-alcoholic drinks .

Speaker 1 34:03

How do you feel it compares when you come back to the UK in terms of sort of what you can find in places and people's attitude towards it ?

Speaker 2 34:14

Similar , I would say . I mean I think London to me has the most mature non-alc scene in the world that I've seen . A bit of a shame because it means we're kind of struggling to break into it , to be honest . But I wouldn't say Copenhagen is far behind , I would say Copenhagen . Probably the majority of non-art producers here are more focused on craft , particularly in the kombucha category . So there's a lot . If you go into restaurants around here here you'll see a lot of like hand-painted bottles from a producer that's making it in his , in his basement , um , and some of it's very , some of it's very , very good . So more kind of niche .

Speaker 1 35:04

Small producers I think are really kind of interesting , doing interesting thing talk to me a bit more then about that , that um mission to sort of break into or or get more uh

Challenges of London/international distribution

Speaker 1 35:14

spread here in in the uk , because your drinks are , um , obviously very restaurant uh compatible . You know how are you finding it trying to get it into the hands of consumers here in the uk so that they can try it .

Speaker 2 35:33

Yeah , I mean brexit didn't make it particularly easy . I mean that that's that's been a challenge . Yeah , um , for everyone trying to get into um . It's a bit sad really , because I always wanted to get more , more of my bottles into the uk , but um , it's a challenge for our distributor . So , the way we're set up at the moment we use mainly natural wine distributors in each country . So we've got a small natural wine distributor in London and we're just trying to focus , whilst we're still super small , on getting nice placements in good restaurants around in London and other cities around England to begin with . But we haven't kind of got to a stage where we're going to really go beyond that into kind of larger retail . So I mean , we're still small in the UK compared to other places at the moment , but hopefully we'll solve that .

Speaker 1 36:30

Like you say , it's a big market . There's so much available and so much for people to try , which is a great thing . Obviously , it's wonderful that people have choice , and I do wish that it was easier for more quality stuff to get around , though , because

Was premiumisation the goal?

Speaker 1 36:48

, as with anything , you know , in a fledgling category , there's going to be a lot of stuff that comes out all at once , and some of it's going to be great and fantastic , and some of it perhaps not so so much .

Speaker 1 36:59

um , yeah and I'd love to see a brand like yours to be able to get more reach and get more exposure and get in more liquid on lips , as they say yeah mean I think it's getting better as there's more people targeting the premium part of the market .

Speaker 2 37:12

I mean , as I'm sure you know , you and all your listeners know , there is a challenge for non-alcoholic producers in terms of being able to set a fair price . I still think there's like way too much of a common perception that non-alcoholics should be cheaper . We're getting the best possible ingredients . We're working them super hard , we're doing far more than a winemaker probably would to create this kind of craft product . Being able to charge a price that allows you to continue business is a challenge in the non-out category . But I think you know there's more of us now aiming for that real premium part of the market , which is really good and that will bring kind of momentum , I hope .

Speaker 1 38:09

More broadly , it's interesting you mentioned that sort of premiumization approach , because I'm noticing now more and more there are more brands in the low-no space that are I don't think separating is the right word but that are distinguishing themselves as a more premium product . And it's quite interesting because obviously just a few years ago it was just one big melting pot of products . It's like , ok , look , just make something and get it out there . And now we're at the stage where we can actually say that this is slightly different . This is a next level up .

Speaker 2 38:47

Was that ?

Speaker 1 38:48

always a goal for you to be a more premium uh , high end , for want of a better word product yeah , I mean I just to me it's easier , um , conceptually , uh , to design a drink .

Speaker 2 39:03

That's the best thing you can possibly make . That's an easier way of making something rather than going , oh , I want to fit into this kind of price bracket which means I need to make these kind of compromises and use these in group . That's more of a headache , I reckon . So I mean , we're just focused on making it absolutely like , without compromise , the best thing that we can make . So you know , that narrows us down to kind of the top end of the market . But yeah , I mean , I think I really am loving seeing just more people doing craft stuff . So I think it's something that's really been missing from the night art category .

Speaker 2 39:52

If you start as a startup , quite often you'll get someone else . You know you outsource it , you'll get someone else to make it for you . So you're kind of compromising really on product control there . You know , margins are so tight . You're trying to use kind of cheaper ingredients and it's great to see more people now kind of drawing a line on the sand going right , I'm going to make this myself . I'm going to get skilled people in to make it . I'm going to get the best possible ingredients I'm going to . I'm going to make this in a , in an expert , artisanal craft way and it you know there's , there's more and more people popping up doing that Silver Bativo Amar in Spain . You know real proper craftsmanship going into these drinks , which the more of that we can get in the category I think , the better .

Speaker 1 40:41

Absolutely . Very well said . Speaking of you know , getting your liquid on lips and getting it out to everybody

Finding Muri

Speaker 1 40:49

, let's tell Low and Low Nation where they can find Muri , either here in the UK and some of the other markets you're in , because you're not just here and in Copenhagen are you , and easiest place is on our website mariedeshtrinkscom .

Speaker 2 41:10

If you order six bowls , you get free shipping . In London , probably the best place is to get it from our distributors , saker and Wine . They're based in Hackney , but they do shipping as well and then we are in most european countries . I would say , and then , um , where are we outside of europe ? We're in the states . Um , you'll find us in new york , particularly um , and uh , we're in singapore . So , starting off , global , global expansion , expansion , step by step .

Speaker 1 41:51

Love it , love it . Yeah , there's a lot of people that listen to this show who are in the States .

Speaker 1 41:55

So , yeah , no , absolutely , and I'm sure they'll be really intrigued to go and find you , so I'll make sure that's all in the show notes . Murray , it's been really interesting talking to you and it's a fascinating way that you're approaching things . Before I let you go , it's time for my final question , which is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show

The BBQ-Q

Speaker 1 42:15

and , um , actually this , this question one of the one of the previous guests that were on the show , uh , gave your brand as an answer to this question , which is how I first came across you , and I was trying to remember it before , but you mentioned it was Amma Brewery when I interviewed them oh yeah so let's imagine I know that the weather isn't very um sunny at the moment , although we're getting there , uh .

Speaker 1 42:37

But cast your mind forward to a nice , lovely , sunny day and you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house and on that day you're choosing not to drink full strength alcohol and you're bringing something with you in the low , no or light range to enjoy . What else other than the amazing , amazing muri bottles do you like to enjoy when you're not drinking full strength ?

Speaker 2 42:58

um , I don't know if you can get it in the uk , but toe all is a brewery in denmark that make the best . So so denmark's famous for sour beers and they make these amazing sour fruit beers that almost drink like a wine . They don't actually de-alkalize it , they actually use the same yeast that we use , but they ferment these sour beers out with this , with this beautiful yeast , and it's kind of like it's almost drinking like a strawberry wine or something . So tall non-alcohol beers are , in my opinion , absolutely delicious . I'd probably take along a bit of Bativo and soda maybe . And , yeah , close to being my absolute favourite is my mate Gregory , who makes Rapscallion soda . Okay , my mate Gregory makes rapscallion soda Okay . Up in Scotland he makes these wonderful grown-up sodas out of delicious . He's a proper craftsman as well . Makes amazing adult sodas up in . I believe he's somewhere up in Glasgow , but yeah , they're amazing . I would crush those all day long good choices , good choices .

Speaker 1 44:10

I've I've heard of rapscallion . I've had the pleasure of trying them , yet but I need to to get , uh , get that into my , my repertoire . And and what was the ? How do I spell that ? That , um , total is t-o-o-l .

Speaker 2 44:23

Okay , my deck . I've been demoing seven years I still still can't speak the language properly . Um , yeah , t-o-o-l . They're the best non-albedos I've ever tried . They're great wow amazing , amazing .

Speaker 1 44:38

I will add those to the links , uh , in the show notes so that people , uh , if they happen to be nearby , I can go and try them , or at least go and check them out online yeah um murray , it's been really interesting talking to you and finding out a bit more about the processes that go into your very , very unique wine moment drinks , and I love the mission that you're on and manage expectations and really get people understanding how they can enjoy these drinks without comparison or without , you know , coming in with expectations that don't belong . But your drinks are absolutely amazing and I highly recommend anybody who's looking for something unique to go and give them a try . Thank you for joining me .

Speaker 2 45:23

Bless you , denise . Thanks a lot for having me cheers .