Sober Curious, Mindful & Alcohol-Free Drinkers Podcast: Low No Drinker

#82 “I Thought Alcohol-Free Beer Was Disgusting” How Jump Ship’s Founder Changed Her Own Mind

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 82

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Sonja Mitchell is the founder of Jump Ship, the award-winning Scottish alcohol-free brewery making waves in the low/no space. From knowing absolutely nothing about brewing to winning 'Scottish Small Brewery of the Year', Sonja shares her remarkable journey—including launch delays, a pandemic pivot, and even a David and Goliath-esque legal battle. 

0:00 Sonja's story
4:09 Building the business step by step
6:03 When brewing goes wrong
9:44 Pandemic setbacks
13:33 Opening her own brewery
21:24 The Jump Ship Range
24:35 Taking BrewDog to court
28:11 Chuckleberry sour
29:32 Making alcohol-free sour beers
31:08 Why brewing to 0.5% makes a better beer
35:07 Jump Ship non-alcoholic beer on draught
38:22 Why it's hard to find alcohol-free on draught
42:28 Naming the brand & nautical flags
47:05 Getting listed in Selfridges
49:46 Alcohol-free: A growing market
52:30 Led by the consumer
55:10 Labelling confusion
59:06 Finding Jump Ship
59:54 The BBQ-Q

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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low no Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the low no and light alcohol revolution. Launched in 2019, jump Ship is the small Scottish alcohol-free brewery with big aspirations and, to be fair to founder Sonia Mitchell, she is kicking butt and making those come to life. I do know, though, for Sonia and for the brand, it hasn't been plain sailing and I promise that, even though they're called Jump Ship, I will keep the nautical references to a minimum. I'll try anyway. But from launch delays to the pandemic, to her own David and Goliath battle through the courts and life's relentless churning, sonia has somehow managed to keep her sleeves rolled up and her energy focused on producing award-winning beers in an award-winning brewery. You can find Jump Ship in over 400 locations in the UK and in Canada and in other places I'm sure too soon, and I'd love to know just a bit more about how that has all come about. So thank you very much for joining me today, sonia. How are you, my dear?

Speaker 2:

I'm very well. Thank you for having me along.

Speaker 1:

You are very, very welcome. It's exciting to have you here. I love seeing what you've done and the journey that you have been on. You have achieved so much from a place of I hope you don't mind me saying complete naivety and inexperience, and I say that in the nicest possible way, because I myself have done the same. I knew nothing about what I'm doing now before I jumped in, and I know how hard it is to just dive into something with no experience and go right, let's give this a go. So you've done wonders. I always like to start by asking my guests to share the journey that led them to where they are now. So tell me about that jumping in to Jump Ship and how you came to be where you are now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, it's the classic I didn't know what I didn't know, so that's why I got started. You know, I didn't know. I didn't even know how to make full strength beer, and certainly not how to make alcohol free beer. But I just very much came from that point of being someone who who loved beer. Um, since I could blag my way into a pub and order a pint. It was a pint and um, but I've always had bad hangovers, um, and as I got older and I had a family and life was really busy, just even like one beer on a Tuesday night, I'd wake up feeling not as sharp on a Wednesday morning and feeling grumpy and irritable, and that's not who my kids wanted to have around, not who I wanted to be um, and so, having sort of always thought alcohol-free beer was something quite disgusting I mean, I went through three pregnancies and didn't touch the stuff because I just thought it was awful I thought I'd give it a go and I think I had a friend who's like oh, we've been to this website and we've ordered some coffee beer and actually it was okay. So my husband and I did Dry January back in 2018 and got a mixed selection case of beer, and most of it was quite disappointing. Um, but there were a couple in there that were okay. I think it was probably like the very first big drop was in there.

Speaker 2:

Um, and I. I found an alcohol-free beer that I liked and I started drinking more of it and I was like, okay, I'm having a beer on a Tuesday night and I feel okay on a Wednesday morning. Um, but, um, I'm drinking a German lager and um, I've made this is not a Scottish accent. I come from Kent originally, but I've made Scotland my home and fully embraced everything about living in Scotland, including its amazing craft beer scene. Um, and I was like, why am I being forced to drink something different when I'm trying to make a better choice for myself? Um, and it really annoyed me. Um, and I don't know to this day why. I thought I should be the one to do something about it. Um, but I kind of looked around and I couldn't see anyone else producing the beer I wanted to drink. Um, certainly no one was doing it in Scotland. Um, and I just thought I'd have a crack. Um, maybe this was my midlife crisis, I don't know. Um and uh, I just thought I'd take it step by step. So the first thing is like well, can I make a decent alcohol? Well, not a decent, like a really good alcohol free beer, because there's no point doing something. That's okay. There was enough okay things on the market. This had to be something really good. Um. So I did a startup brewing course. Um, totally loved it.

Speaker 2:

Um fell in love with the whole art and science of brewing, the fact it's this live organic process, um. But I also realized that I had a history degree rather than biochemistry degree and it's just gonna take me a few years to become a brewer myself. Um. But while I was there, I met a brewer who had he developed a low alcohol beer and I'm like, oh, I want to do something that's less than 0.5, can you help? And he, he agreed.

Speaker 2:

So, um, I knew the style of beer I wanted. I wanted to to brew a lager. I wanted it to be a sort of a craft lager with a bit more color and a bit more flavor to it. Um and um. So I kind of wrote a, wrote a brief for what I wanted, and then, um, we had a go at brewing three different versions, um, one was terrible, one was okay and one was brilliant, um, and I shared it with friends. I kind of got local running groups around to do tastings. I took it into local bottle shops, um, tasted it against what was on the market and everyone was like, yeah, this beer is amazing. And so I thought, right, okay, I've got a beer, that's, that's good enough, that's better than what's there already. So now I need to to get it to market. And, um, I think it was the fact that I loved that beer so much and really wanted it to be drunk that kept me going. Um, because, um, getting it brewed commercially was really difficult. Um, so I had a sort of technical specification sheet how to brew it, and I thought I could just rock up at a brewery and say can you brew this for me? And they say, yeah, sure, no problem.

Speaker 2:

So, uh, finding a brewery that was that had the space to take me on, that wasn't too big, that wasn't too small and was based in Scotland, proved really difficult. And because I didn't have a background in brewing or the drinks industry, I just didn't know anyone. But you know, eventually I met someone who knew someone who put me in touch, who knew someone who put me in touch, um, and, and then, and then I did. I sort of turned up, had a chat with the, the, the brewery, um, handed over my specification, uh, turned up for the brew day. Didn't really understand everything that was happening, but it all felt great and then went away, had done my brilliant design, got the branding, got the name, and then I came back a month later to can the beer and I tasted it and it was nothing like the beer I wanted it to be, and so that was like my first real like.

Speaker 2:

Okay, this is not going to be as easy as I thought. Um, and it was a really difficult decision. Literally everything was ready to go and just to say no, this is not the beer that I wanted to launch. Had to kind of phone my customer I had lined up and say sorry, it's not going to be ready, um, and then effectively ended up chucking that beer away and starting again. Um, and we brewed it a couple more times times and we just couldn't get the flavor right.

Speaker 2:

And then at that point the brewery I was working with were getting busier. They didn't have time to kind of play around with developmental recipes, so they said they couldn't brew it again, which just happened to be the same day that I'd launched my crowdfund, and my crowdfund went viral, um, and I was on like BBC Scotland and and then in the background I'm like I don't even know how I'm gonna make this now. Um, but I I had started talking to another brewery and they were willing to have a go. So and I think by this point I knew that probably first time it wasn't going to work, which would be okay, because I'd kind of realized by then that brewing is not just press a button, and it it turns out that it is.

Speaker 2:

We're dealing with live yeast, we're dealing, you know, there's there's so many things that come into play when you're brewing beer. The water has an impact. The malt, you know. Using a different malt supplier, using a different water source, using different brew kit, you get different temperature controls, you get different extracts, um, and an alcohol-free beer is such a finely balanced thing. You know, we're using less malt, we're having small fermentation. All the things that put flavor into beer are really being squeezed and if you don't get it right, it quickly flips into something that's not good enough. Um, so the first time we brewed it, it over fermented, but it did taste right. So so I'm like, and because the flavor had been the problem. Okay, like we've got the flavor bit now, now we can work on the fermentation and finally, in the december of that year, I had the beer that I was happy with and could launch with and um, all those crowdfunding rewards I'd promised went out and I launched with dry drinker and brilliant, future was golden. And then we all know what happened in March 2020.

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah, so that was another big setback. Um, in some ways I was. It was still such a small business. I didn't have so much to lose. It was more the opportunity I was losing. So I, my whole plan has been to build the brand in the on trade. Um, and suddenly that was gone. I'd made a decision that I wasn't going to have a DTC business. I was going to just sell through wholesalers and and um and so, uh, and then also that I had no production because the brewery I was working with furloughed. They were 90% cask beer, so their market disappeared. So I had the beer I had in the warehouse.

Speaker 2:

I didn't know when I was going to be able to brew again and it all felt really, really bleak and I had three kids at home to homeschool who needed all that support and a husband who worked in an industry that went bonkers during COVID because everyone was doing the Zoom calls. So he was, you know, yeah, like many families across the country. It was difficult and then so I just kind of thought, reset my expectations of what this year is going to look like, and if I'm still standing at the end of it, then that's that success. Um, but then, you know, like everything, um suddenly realized that people were looking around wanting to support local business. People were sitting at home online ordering whatever they could. Um, so, literally, to begin with, I stuck a paypal button on my website and started driving beer around Edinburgh delivering it to people, and then, um, you know, gradually from that developed the DTC side of my business, which ended up being, you know, 70% of my sales in the first year. Um, and then just kind of gradually stuck with it as the world started to to open up again, launched my second beer.

Speaker 2:

Um made the decision in 21 to make my first hire. So I hired um Pete Sharp as head brewer, which was brilliant because I probably about 80% of my focus up until that point had been production and everyone will tell you it should all have been on sales and marketing, um. So having uh sort of a fully trained brewer to come and sort of manage the production side, um gave me scope to go and do more of what I should be doing and what actually I'm trained in, um, and uh, yes. So so then, as the uh on trade woke up, um, that became a really important place for us to go. And when you don't have a big budget, you don't have a big marketing budget. Someone trying your beer for the first time in a great restaurant, in a great bar. You've got that whole brand halo effect that shows that this isn't just another alcohol-free beer, this is something really special. Um, we won some really brilliant awards, um. So Yardarm, which is the first beer I launched with that lager that had gone through all that trouble with um, won best in the world at the world beer awards in 21, which for me was amazing and made me realize that all of the effort I put in had been worth it and that I'd been right to, because people have been saying, oh, isn't it good enough? Isn't it good enough? No, it's not good enough. So that was good.

Speaker 2:

And then the goal. The goal was always to have our own brewery, and again, just about any sort of business expert, consultant person I spoke to said don't open a brewery, don't put your money in manufacturing and production. Put all of it in sales and marketing, outsource, outsource, brewed by actual people. You know, I wanted to have brewery tours. I wanted to, to be able to showcase how it's made um, and to be in control. I think.

Speaker 2:

I think that's what I found really difficult about contract production is, I was never fully in control, um, and in a space sort of like no and low brewing. It's so, so new. I mean, it's only really been in the last five years that people have really started taking it seriously as as a craft product, um, so I wanted scope to, to make more mistakes and to learn more and to to make the beers as good, as good as they can be, um, and from a sustainability angle as well. You know, when I wasn't in control of the supply chain, there's only so much I could do, but, but now we've um, you know, with our own brewery we can really make the best choices. There's only so much I could do, but, but now we've um, you know, with our own brewery we can really make the best choices. So so, anyway. So that that was always the goal, and it was a long time trying to find the right place for a brewery um, and, and how long ago did you open the brewery then?

Speaker 2:

so we did the crowd fund um two years ago, so start of 23, yeah, and um did a raise on cedars and again that felt like this you know the whole energy cost, cost of living. I'm like gosh, is this going to work? Is anyone going to want to invest in a brewery at this point when we're just trying to keep warm? Um, but, but it went, it went well and it came through, and so that gave me the funds to um to open the brewery. So we opened our doors in January last year. That's amazing, that's yeah and so what?

Speaker 1:

what difference has that made to you as a producer then, going from, because obviously you know you had these challenges when you first launched, and and you, you tried at this brewery in three attempts and they, and they haven't got it right, and I do wonder if part of their giving up was was that thought of it's not out of beer? Does it really matter? Is it worth the effort, yeah, to to, as you say, contract brewing out and not having full control, to now being able to brew all of your own beer the way you want it. What's that done to your, your business as a whole and to what you're trying to achieve?

Speaker 2:

um, it's been really transformational actually. Um being able to expand the range of beers, so we being able to play out in different beer styles. Um being able to move into keg um by producing our own beer. We can just do it slow and steady. Um, and we've put a lot of work in last year in terms of making sure we've got a good product with a good shelf life, because it's it's hard to you know, alcohol free is a fragile, delicate thing and shelf life's a real issue. So making sure that we had a cake product that I was happy with. Um and also, now you know we we're really pushing um our lager on draft, but we can also just pull off a few kegs of our triple hopped ipa and um, you know, offer that to local bars and restaurants and having that kind of rotational lines as well. Um, which is what you want. If you're a craft beer drinker, you don't want to just have a lager, you want to have something different. So to being able to to do that's been great. Um being able to do we do some pop-up tap room events. Um, we've done tours, tasting, uh, bringing customers in as well. I think that's been great to kind of really show them the effort that goes into making this beer and how it's made and and and why it's worth putting the effort in to really look after your non-drinking customers. So that's been great.

Speaker 2:

We're now brewing on, so the brewery is fully electric, which means we can use renewable energy sources. We use biomass heat to heat the brew house and that's locally sourced wood chip, which are the offcuts of local forestry, so it's got a very low, low footprint. Um. Solar panels, um, I'm now potentially looking at whether we could put reed beds in to deal with our effluent, um, so just lots of different things we can do to do there. Um, having a bigger team as well is great, um, and uh, yeah, it sort of it's. It's. You know, beforehand I was always just worrying about am I going to have enough beer? And trying to booking the brew slots and then booking the packaging slots, it, it. We never had that. You know. For me to go and talk to bigger customers knowing that I can supply is a big deal, and yeah, so it and just the I don't know the places where we're listed now and the conversations we're having. It's all just feels like it's put a whole lot of momentum into it as well.

Speaker 1:

That's wonderful, that's wonderful. And the brewery recently well, not so recently won an award. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so we won Scottish Small Brewery of the Year in September last year, so I was not expecting that at all. It's very embarrassing. I sobbed all over the stage. That's wonderful. Yeah, it's just very funny. Lots of ugly crying photos of me. There's none that I can really share on social media.

Speaker 2:

You keep those to yourself yeah, yeah, but no, that was yeah. That was a really proud moment because, yeah, with all the doubters who sort of said, you know, don't do it, you shouldn't be doing it, there's no value in it, and then you know, being just, you know, I mean, I think we're only sort of this couple of alcohol-free breweries in the whole of the uk who do their own beer and just do that. So, um, yeah, so that that that was a really, a really, really great moment that's wonderful.

Speaker 1:

Congratulations for that. And and and in your face, everybody who told her she couldn't do it because sonja mitchell can. Yeah, um, let's talk a little bit about the beers specifically themselves. So for those of, and, in your face, everybody who told her she couldn't do it because Sonia Mitchell can, let's talk a little bit about the beers specifically themselves. So for those of you watching on YouTube, you can see a few selections here behind me. Now you say your first beer that started it all off was the Yardarm. And now I know that you have, you mentioned, you have a core range, and then you also you have the, the flexibility of having your own brew house. You, you have, um, sometimes seasonal specials or yearly one-off.

Speaker 2:

So take me through a little bit, uh, through the range and some of your specials as well yeah, so, yeah, so your dumb is our sort of flagship and that's been sort of by far our biggest seller. Um. And then, um, jack staff is our core range ipa that sits alongside it, um, which is, um I kind of talk about it as a session ipa, which sounds a bit ridiculous and alcohol free, but it's kind of used, designed to be really easy drinking. The bitterness is balanced, um, and I think, particularly when a lot of our beers are sold in the on trades, that there might only be two or three alcohol free options there. I want to make sure that they're going to be crowd freezers. Um. Then we've got our stoker stout there which, uh, was, uh, best no alcohol beer in the scottish beer awards and it just got a bronze at the world alcohol free. So pretty pleased with that, um, and stout's definitely having a bit of a moment in, well, in in all, in all spheres, um, so it's, it's great to do that. Um. And then we have our flying colors, pale ale and, uh, we're actually working on a new core range beer at the moment which is going to be nice and tropical. Oh, I can tell you a bit more.

Speaker 2:

And then, um, in the the 440s it's quite funny. I said this is limited edition. But you've got the uh, that one. There's a har, so that, uh, we brewed that one with our crowd funders. We sort of promised that when we moved into the new brewery we'd design a beer with them. So we asked people the flavour profile, the style of beer, the name, the design, and actually that's been our biggest selling 440. So pretty much said, okay, we'll just keep that one in stock all the time.

Speaker 2:

And then next to it you've got the Dazzle Ship, which is quite a funky geometric design which is sort of inspired by the warships in World War I where they used black and white geometric patterns to confuse the missiles. And if you Google dazzle ships there's some really weird designs where you can't quite see where the front of the ship is. And our plan with that series is to it's a sort of a west coast style ipa, so kind of quite punchy hop forward, um, but to switch out the hops, um. So this one is a galaxy and I think we're looking to do one um, potentially with harlequin, which is a really amazing british hop, and so to kind of take people on a journey, um, to just how changing the hop, how that changes the flavour.

Speaker 2:

We've got a new summer sour coming out, probably next month. So that's, we've done a series of fruit forward beers and so we'll be doing one of those over summer, the one that's ocean drift, that used to be called shore leave. So, um yeah, that's, uh, another one of my uh uh battles to overcome in there.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so you know if you're happy to talk about that, I think that's that's. Um, that's quite a story. I referenced it in the introduction as your sort of David and Goliath sort of moment, which must have been quite a disheartening realisation for you that you had been faced with another brewery pretty much usurping your IP, I suppose, for want of a better phrase, can you tell us a bit about that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was not. It was yeah, not, not, not anything that I ever thought I'd find myself doing. Um and uh, yeah, I was on on holiday and I got contacted by a reporter from the sun saying have you seen this? Um and um, it was um brew dog had shared some um advertising ideas for a new beer called shore leave, um, with the tagline it's um time to jump ship long and hard about what to do there. I, you know, I believed that I had goodwill, that I'd been building in the name of that beer, of that beer, um, and wanted to to make sure our voice was was heard. So, um, yes, it sort of went down the, the legal route and thankfully, we were able to to reach a, an amicable settlement and and move on.

Speaker 1:

But, um, yeah, not, not, not, uh, uh, for a small business, it was a really difficult decision to take and very, very stressful, um and yeah, one that I'm pleased to have put behind me now good, good, yes, I mean uh, just just for those who are listening who might not be aware, so Brew Dog are, uh, they, they run, they have a brewery of their own and they run bars and they're quite large, so they're very prominent in the beer sphere, and so for them to have used a name and referenced your brand in a tagline could have a huge impact on a small, independent, up-and-coming brand that's trying to continue to make a name for itself. So I think it's admirable for pardon the pun I said, I wouldn't do that too often for you to have not just sat back and taken that and to actually have said no, hold on a minute, we were here first and to stand up for yourself in that David and Goliath kind of way, because I think it needs to be done. I think that, um, big alcohol or medium alcohol or whatever it is, is doing a great job in bringing attention to the low-no space, but that doesn't mean that they get to usurp those who are already here and who are trying to build and create something. Um. So I'm glad to hear that it has been dealt with and put behind you and that you've been able to move on and continue to do such amazing, wonderful things. If I could take you back to the beers, I know that you do a lot of one-offs and seasonal specials, and your ingredients are always quite unique.

Speaker 1:

I find it fascinating that you don't just go out and make oh, here's a peach lager. You know, you do some quite interesting things. I mean, behind me, here is a raspberry and vanilla. You've used some fruits that I've never even heard of. I remember there was, oh, the chuckleberry Chuckleberry, that was the one and I thought what's a chuckleberry? Is that like? Is that something to do with the Chuckle Brothers? What's going on? I know?

Speaker 1:

I know how did you find and come up with these amazing concoctions, then I mean I think chuckleberry basically loved the name.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of a cross between a gooseberry and a blackcurrant and a jostaberry and then a jostaberry and then a jostaberry is kind of a cross between a blackcurrant and a gooseberry, so it's kind of a gooseberry blackcurranty kind of vibe to it. It looks like a giant blueberry. Um and um, yeah, and I guess it comes back to trying to do something that's that's a bit different, that's adding value to the category, that's giving people more choice, um, so, uh, yeah, that that's something that that it sounded really fun and it has a really lovely flavor to it. Um and um, being able to sort of use. I mean, I have to say the sour beers are really tricky. So we we're using um, so it's a lacto, lacto, lactobacillus in the fermentation. So it's essentially kind of everything in alcohol-free beer is massively controlled and yet we're like, okay, we'll just kick off a wild fermentation using bacteria and then make it an alcohol-free beer.

Speaker 2:

So that's the kind of a process that we've kind of been refining with each different beer that we do because we learn a bit more how it goes um, and I think for me, because another way of making a sour beer is you just add a load of lactic acid, which is kind of the cheats version, to get the sourness.

Speaker 2:

But, um, by having that sort of wild um, uh fermentation you get sort of some, I think, more complexity and flavor is sometimes a bit of funkiness. If you taste that raspberry one, it's got some quite unexpected flavors in it just kind of makes it really interesting. And then working out how to blend and to make sure we end up with something that is less than 0.5 and a stable product. So that's been a lot of fun. I think we're brewing our next one next week so I'll be able to report back how easy that one was. Generally they're slightly nerve wracking, but I want to keep doing these kind of beers because each time we do them we learn something new and then we can kind of take that learning and build it into the next one and keep perfecting and perfecting.

Speaker 1:

And all of you. Am I right in saying all of your beers are 0.5?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Is that correct yeah.

Speaker 1:

Are they de-alcoholized or do you brew to 0.5?

Speaker 2:

We brew to 0.5. So we don't have any the big industrial process. If you came into our brewery it looks pretty much like a normal brewery. The equipment's very similar. Probably the only thing that would stand out is the pasteurizers, because that's not a standard small brewery piece of kit. But we're just managing that fermentation very carefully. So it's about not having too many sugars available for the yeast to turn into alcohol, having yeast which isn't so good at turning sugar into alcohol and managing the temperatures where the yeast is active so it doesn't have too much time to get going, and managing the temperatures where the yeast is active so it doesn't have too much time to get going.

Speaker 2:

But it is amazing the difference that that small amount of fermentation makes. So we tend to stop our beers at about 0.3 because we want to make sure that we're always well under that 0.5. But a beer tastes different at 0.1 and 0.3. There's a kind of that raw sweetness, of wortiness with technical term for it that disappears and you get the sort of the more complex beer-y flavours that you'd expect. So by doing it that way and designing the beer to be the way it is rather than stripping anything out, I think that for me is the best way to get a really satisfying full-flavoured drink. And yeah, we're always fine-tuning and polishing and since we've been in the brewery as as well, we've kind of continued to to work on it, to to continue to look at improvements. And there's just alcohol-free brewing. There's so many ways in which it just throws up little curveballs because it's different, different, different standard brewing, um, but what I really like. So, going back to like the fruit beers and things like that is um, we, you know, we.

Speaker 2:

I came into this as um providing beers for people who were used to drinking full strength craft beers didn't want the alcohol. But I think, um, it's also beginning to say to people well, you could have a soft drink which is full of sugar, or you could have this really tasty, fruity, alcohol-free, sour, um, that is all natural, it's got no additives in it. Um, that's got half the sugar, or less than half the sugar of a coke and have that with your lunch instead. Um, so it's um, you know, it's a whole new world. And I think what's really interesting when you look at consumer behaviour, you know you've got everyone across the board really is moderating, whether you're sort of 20, 30, 40, 50, but you've got this kind of new generation coming in who've never drunk.

Speaker 2:

I think it's like four in 10 under 25-year-olds just haven't drunk alcohol. So what are they looking for? Um, they've never had a beer, so do they want a beer? Um, so, so that's kind of why. But for me, if someone is kind of just finds beer so exciting, I really want to make sure that people understand what a brilliant natural drink it is. What, um, how you can get natural flavors from hops that taste like pine or citrus or mango, and that's all just a hop flower, that's bonkers. Um, and uh, yeah, how you can get, uh, the complexity from, from a sour beer. That is unexpected and and really refreshing.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, lots, lots to do it's clear you've got such a a great passion for beer and for your craft and it's wonderful to see you mentioned that.

Speaker 1:

You know you fell in love with beer when you were, like many of us in the UK, going into the pub and perhaps you were maybe a little bit too young to have done so and having a pint and you mentioned kegs earlier on. Pint um, and you mentioned kegs earlier on. Uh, can you tell me a bit about that sort of draft journey, because a lot of people in low no nation when I put posts out, when I get emails from people, one of the big things that they want is alcohol free on draft um, but it's not very readily available. You know some people are doing it, some brands are doing it, but it's not like you can go into any pub and find it. You can find a bottle but it's very hard to find draft. What's the journey been like for you, getting your beers into pubs on draft and do you think that it's changing? Are we going to start seeing more?

Speaker 2:

uh, yes, definitely. So I I've been talking about draft to customers ever since I launched and you know, a couple of years ago I was like no, no, no, yeah, in the fridge maybe, but no, not giving up one of my taps to an alcohol-free line. And I'd say the last year, six months to a year, we've had the incoming inquiry saying do you do draft? I'm looking for draft alcohol free. Do you have one? So that's been a real change and I and I and I still think we're only getting started.

Speaker 2:

I think it's going to become a lot more normalized, um, and I think you know there's a brilliant study done down in Bristol last year where they took a certain number of taps and put alcohol free on and actually the pubs takings didn't go down, people just switched across and I think just kind of really beginning to understand that people are going out to socialize, not to get drunk. So people's expectations are different and what they want they want is, yeah, they want to hold a pint. Um, and then you know you can't get a pint of beer at home, you can only get a pint of beer in the pub. So give them something special that you know you look forward to, that you can share, drink, um, kind of no one knows the abv when it's in a pint glass. Yeah, and I've heard anecdotally, quite a lot of pubs don't use the guinness zero, zero glasses, because people just want the guinness glass. They don't want um.

Speaker 2:

So it's because it doesn't really matter. You're just drinking great beer and it just happens to be less than 0.5 um, so, um, yes, so, so yeah, finding the right pubs where there's going to be a good pull through you no one wants to have someone order a keg and then it sits there for three weeks and doesn't shift. So, finding pubs which have got the right audience and, I think, working with those customers where it goes really well, and then giving confidence to other customers to try. Giving confidence to other customers to try um, and uh, yeah, I mean it's and and really when, when, when you're not drinking, people will start actively seeking out. Okay, well, I'm gonna go there because I know they've got draft alcohol free and so it's a real point, a difference that venues can embrace absolutely what.

Speaker 1:

What are some of the challenges, though, in that, because I think that both consumers and landlords have concerns over you know why they can't get draft and the challenges of having draft alcohol free you mentioned it being somewhere where you know it's going to be pulled through, where you know there's going to be a market for it, where you know it's going to be pulled through, where you know there's going to be a market for it. What are some of the challenges that you face, sort of in practical terms, in delivering or pubs using draft AF beer?

Speaker 2:

I think I mean it's the shelf life is the thing to get, right, if you think about, you know, my cans of beer are pasteurised, so they arrive in the consumer hand in the condition that they left the brewery, whereas a keg of beer leaves the brewery and then it goes into a pub, it goes on the bar, it's up to the pub how often their lines are cleaned, how clean, how often their lines are cleaned, um and um, you don't, because we're building such a new category, trust is really important and you want people to get a really good pint, um, when, when, when, they're served it for the first time.

Speaker 2:

So, um, so for us it's kind of making sure that when the beer leaves the brewery sterile that there's, you know, there's that that, that that it arrives in a sterile it was on on day one um, because, um, you know, we're not in charge of how quickly the beer will, will move, um, so I think I think that's why, um, even the likes of heineken and guinness, I mean, have been super cautious and how they roll out, sort of making sure that, um, that they've got the, the beer right, and that, um, that they can work with venues to to make sure that the service is right as well.

Speaker 2:

Um but um, which is a good thing, you know. I want you know for me, if someone goes somewhere else and has a bad pint of alcohol-free beer, whether that if that wasn't jump ship, it still is like puts a seed of doubt. Well, maybe alcohol-free beer isn't that good. I think, like all brands, we need to sort of work together at that level to establish quality. So we've got that trust that alcohol-free beer is a good thing, and then you can choose which brand you like and I'm glad you put it that way, because I think it's it's really.

Speaker 1:

I want people to understand that you know this is a joint effort between producers like yourselves and the venues themselves, that you have to work together. While you guys are making delicious drinks and working really hard to iterate and to improve all the time, and the venues are working really hard to make sure that their lines are clean, that their staff are trained, that their communication is on point, are trained, that their communication is is on point, uh, and it can't work for us to grow the, the the low-node draft market in venues unless both sides come together and and really work as a team to make sure that the customer at the end of the day is happy, because that that's the most important thing yeah, absolutely, um, and I think also there's quite a big education just for people.

Speaker 2:

You don't still don't walk into a pub expecting there to be an alcohol-free on draft. So if you've got an alcohol-free on draft, you need to tell people so they know it's there. Um and uh, yeah, so how to get that visibility in the bar, um and uh, you know, looking at sort of branding glasses, looking at the menus, getting all of that right so that because then once you've got it right, and then you'll have people seeking you out because you are that pub that you know you can get a really decent pipe, um, so so, yeah, so I'm kind of excited to see how that grows, because I think it's there's. You know, it feels like we're just on the cusp of it there's. There's a lot more still to come.

Speaker 1:

I agree 100 percent. Um, let me take you back a a little bit. I I managed to rein in my nautical puns, um, but I would love to just know a little bit about the name and about, um, your, your love of the sea, because I think it's really uh interesting and you've got quite a a unique backstory when it comes to spending some time on the water yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, um, I never apologize for a nautical pun in my presence. I love a nautical pun, um, uh, yeah, so I love, I love sailing. Um, it's kind of one of my sort of happy places being by the sea. Um, so when it came to, uh, setting up the, the brand and what we would call it, um, having something that tied back to to my story, um, and jump ship, both in terms of a jump ship from everything I knew, to launch this beer, um, and I also wanted something that was a kind of an invitation to make a change, because sometimes, particularly five years ago, there was still a real hesitation about oh, do I want to try an alcohol-free beer, whereas it's like jump ship, don't be afraid, make a change. And then it sort of led us then nicely into the nautical world, where so all of the beer names have a nautical theme to it.

Speaker 2:

So Yardarm is the spa on a mast, on a boat, and in the old days of the Navy, when the sun was over the Yardarm, that was when sailors got their first totter rum of the day. So I don't know if you ever heard that expression. Sun's over the Yardarm means time for a drink, and then, like Jack Staff is the, the mast, uh, a flagpole on a boat, um and uh. Stokers are we used to be a rank in the royal navy, literally the people who were stoking the coal-fired engines. So it's kind of like really sort of hot, thirsty, dirty work, um and uh. And then we the can design.

Speaker 2:

Inspiration comes from the nautical flags, um. So in the olden days they would um use the flags as signals to other boats and each flag has a letter attached to it or or a specific meaning. Um. So like yardarm's got the y and the l flag on the front of yardarm lager and it's just kind of enabled. I mean, I think probably 99% of the people won't get most of it, but it's nice to kind of have a play and have a bit of a code to it. So if you look down the back of our account you've got a little strip of flags which spell out sort of JS. So on the lager it js yal for yard arm lager we can see that on there.

Speaker 1:

For there we go for those who are watching on youtube. Is it those there? Yeah, those flags down there. Yeah, it's like you're in on a secret, uh, secret code, if you know it and you if you can file it. So you're like yeah, I know, I know what that means, I speak flag yeah, indeed, indeed, um.

Speaker 2:

So so, yeah, it's um, you've been able to have a bit of fun with it and um, it's kind of given us uh, both from terms of words and designed something to play with. Um. So, although the irony is, having started a business that's nautically inspired, I now have no time at all to go sailing but you, you did, didn't you, didn't you and your I?

Speaker 1:

I read or heard somewhere that you and your husband did a quite a long trip. Yeah, we did trip across the open oceans yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, um, before before we had kids and we took a sabbatical and uh, sailed from, uh, western Portugal through into the Mediterranean and we left in March, which was really far too early in the season, and hit some big weather early on and really scared ourselves silly but then kind of gained in confidence, worked out what we're doing and it's quite funny, I quite often think back to that trip when I'm taking on something. Now when I'm feeling really scared. Um, I think about how I kind of coped in some of those big storms and got through them. Um, and uh, I can like well, if I did that, I can do this. Um, and I think also on a, on a sailing boat, you're always thinking through what could go wrong. You know what if that, what if that that rope breaks, or if so you kind of got always got to have a plan a and a plan b and plan c, which is quite similar to business really, wow.

Speaker 1:

I mean, yeah, I can understand. That sounds terrifying. Glad you did this. Well done, sonia. Your beer is in Selfridges. Yes, tell us about that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So that's a really proud moment because I think for every startup around, selfridges has got such a reputation for picking the good brands early and their food hall is an amazing place, um. So, um, yeah, it's um, and actually it didn't. It came through our wholesaler. So we were at the wholesaler in the southeast called pigs ear and um, and they got. They just phoned up and said, oh yeah, selfridges are taking the beer and I'm like what, um? So so that's great.

Speaker 2:

And we've got some really yeah, this really exciting new listings. So, uh, we've just um got confirmation that we're going to be on the Kalmac ferries up in Scotland. If you ever come on holiday up here to the islands, then the Kalmac ferries will take you there, so they're a real kind of Scottish icon. And, uh, the Caledonian sleeper down to London. So, yeah, and a few others which I can't talk about just yet but are also quite exciting. So, yeah, it's really, and I think you know from a point where I was kind of delivering to every customer directly myself to then seeing the beer take flight and and um turn up in in different places, and I'm still always, always surprised when someone tells me they drink the beer and I'm like, oh wow, I didn't know you, you did that. So, um, yeah, it's, it's good, and I think it's just, um, yeah, about having those better choices. So that, um, and I think it's just such a wonderful space to work in, in the low and no space.

Speaker 2:

Um, and I think you know, when people are working really hard to either cut out alcohol, cut back on alcohol, starting from a point where they probably thought it was all about giving up and missing out, and and I can give them a new beer that they've not tried before, that's delicious and delightful and and suddenly it's kind of seeing that moment of joy when people realize that there's actually there's so much more out there to discover, and, um, it's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's a great, great space to be in. And I, I kind of knew when I started it that it was going to grow, that it wasn't just me, but I never believed it would grow this quickly. You know it's, it's kind of the last five years have been crazy in terms of the shifting consumer attitudes and, um, yeah, I mean I want to go to beer festivals. Now people don't come up to me and say, oh, what's the point, they just say, oh, brilliant, alcohol free that's excellent.

Speaker 1:

That's excellent to hear and you're right, you know it is. I always say that this is not a trend, this is a culture shift. And it's not to say that alcohol is going away, because it's obviously not, but it's to say that those who want to choose to drink differently now have options and now have support and now can feel that it's just as normal quote unquote and okay to choose a low or no alcohol beer when you're out, whether you want it in the branded glass or not, and it's no longer got that stigma behind it that it used to. And I think that even the shorter time that I've been in this space just three years myself the amount of the queries that come in, the excitement for this space, the products that are being made, the events that are taking place, it's growing at a rate of knots and I don't see it slowing down at any point.

Speaker 2:

No, I mean, if you look at Spain, spain and Germany, I think alcohol-free beer is what's about 15-16 percent of the market in Spain. Um, and I don't see why it won't get that big in in the UK, because once you found a beer that you like, that means you can still drive, that you're not going to feel hung over the next day, that you can still have that extra treat at lunchtime. It's just, it's just a no, it's a no-brainer really. Um, so I think, I think there's loads more growth still to come and I think, um, I think, and it's being totally led by consumers and as kind of brands we're running to catch up.

Speaker 2:

Because I think, and I can see that sort of people, once they've tried a beer and they like it, then they're like oh, I could have a beer on a Saturday lunchtime, I can drink it on a Friday night before a run the next day, and you can see the people like, click, click, click.

Speaker 2:

You start to kind of see all the opportunities and and occasions when you can drink and and so for the people who still might be skeptical and or kind of feel like I might be judging them, I'm like it's, it's just about more beer, not less. You know, I'm just giving you more opportunities when you can drink it, um, so, um, yeah, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's. It's a good, it's good, good, good, fun place to be in, and it's kind of great to see everything you're doing to to showcase as well. And I think you know when I sort of did my first jump ship post back in December 2019 or whenever it was, when I launched a crowdfund without a social media page and realized I'd made a big mistake, um, but even at that point I got know, people followed immediately saying brilliant, what are you doing? We're waiting. You know, I was really sort of amazed at that response.

Speaker 1:

And I think you made a really interesting point there that this is being led by the consumer and I've been in hospitality for 24 years. I've worked around drinks all of my adult life and generally with alcoholic beverages it is pushed by the brand, it is pushed by the industry. It is known that this is a new thing that we're making. Let's get it out there, let's have a big marketing campaign, let's get everybody talking about this whiskey or this beer or this rum or whatever it is.

Speaker 1:

It's very rare that in full alcohol you have consumers demanding a new batch of whiskey and therefore producers going out and making it, but with low and no, it is the consumer demanding better quality drinks, demanding more options, demanding better service of these things, and then producers going hold on a minute, okay, I can't get it out the door fast enough. And I think that's really really fascinating because on the flip side, consumers still really don't understand a lot about the low and low space. So it's growing from both ends. It's meeting in the middle, but it's being driven by drinkers saying we want more and better drinks, and so that, I think, makes it fascinating to see how it's going to come together, because we're kind of building it with each other.

Speaker 2:

Drinkers and producers and consumers are building this together and and I haven't seen that before- yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is a sort of a seismic shift in behavior, because alcohol is so part of our social norms and and and so kind of um, unpicking all of that um is, but it's yeah, people are just doing it because they they want to. And I think COVID had a massive impact. Like I was a real point in like May 2020 when suddenly my online sales took off and I think it was just people, you know, initially we thought this was like short and sharp and everyone was drinking and laughing about how much they were drinking. And then it got to kind of about May and everyone's like I feel awful, this is awful, it's not ending anytime soon and I need to take control of something in my life and look after my health and look after my well-being, and alcohol is just the obvious place to start um, and so people started ordering online, trying out different drinks at home, finding the ones that they liked, and then, as the world up, going up, going out to the pub and going, well, hang on, why, I know this stuff's much better.

Speaker 2:

Why are you only selling that? You know um? So so, yeah, I think there's just more and more change to come. I really do hope I know this stuff's much better. Why are you only selling that? So yeah, I think there's just more and more change to come. I really do hope we get a bit more support from the government around the labelling side of it, because I think that sort of low versus no the definitions. It's kind of been frustrating that that's taken so long.

Speaker 1:

Do you get much pushback on the 0.5 from people not understanding um?

Speaker 2:

I do, I do like majority, no, but there are some people for whom it is a confusion of like, well, can I still drive if it's got some alcohol in it? And, you know, can I? Can I drink it while I'm pregnant? It's still got alcohol in it, but it's it's, it's um it, but all the science shows that there's no physiological effect and actually there's naturally occurring alcohol at that level in lots of things.

Speaker 2:

We can see, my, you know, we all talk about the large ripe banana, um, so I feel that there's kind of just an unnecessary confusion and and when we're all about building trust, you don't want that to be there. Um, and I think also there's an element of there's some zero, zero browns out there who prefer, prefer to keep that confusion going. So, um, so, yeah, so I hope, um, we could just bring that in line with the eu and most of the rest of the world. Really, I'm almost like you know, the definition of alcohol free in Finland apparently is 2.8 or something, um, yeah, so I sort of I just um, yeah, it'd be good, good to get that just clarified so we can all move on.

Speaker 2:

But I think, um, as, as you get more people, you get more educated, then, like, realize. Well, actually, maybe a 0.5 sometimes tastes better than a 0.0, because it's not de-alkalized, it's got, um, you know, it's got more flavor in it. So, um, I think, for me, I think, just make it clear, it's 0.0 or 0.5, people can choose. But the no and low, the fact we all use no and low because we're not quite sure what else to say, it's it is.

Speaker 1:

It is very. I mean, I I try a lot on my, on this podcast, as well as in the magazine, on the blog, to to help to demystify all of that, but it's actually it's quite hard to demystify it because it still exists that those terms and those lang, that language is what is used by everybody. So if, again, if you're not within the space, it can sometimes look a little bit like a a hot mess in terms of, well, this brand says they're alcohol free, but this brand says they're non-alcoholic, but this brand says that they're low alcohol. Oh no, now there's some light drinks, but they're not mid-range drinks. But if I want to go completely zero and so people just get like I don't just tell me what I can drink I know I know, and that's really what I want to help people to to understand.

Speaker 1:

I was at an event recently and, and um, it was a hospitality event, a talk, and they were asking you know, should we, should we label this on the menu, and should we write this down, and and what, if we know? Give the customer this information. And I said, hand on heart, how much do you think your customers care about all that minutiae? People just want to drink, they just want to be able to understand. Yes, I can drink this, it won't get me drunk and it tastes amazing and that's where we need to get to, but it's still a.

Speaker 2:

I think it's still a bit of a journey to get there, but we're not there yet for people, I'm afraid yeah, yeah, and I feel like if we can solve the no and low, then it becomes easier for the lower drinks to that kind of category, you know, from a beer, like a two percent beer, um, being clear what that is as well would would be helpful because, um, you know, that's an abv that I might enjoy if I was to drink alcohol. So, um, yeah, getting that, that, that clarity, but, um, but it's not, it doesn't feel like it's it's holding the category back, it's just, I think it's just. It's just annoying to have to keep explaining it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I can understand. I can understand um. You're available in selfridges. You're in some pubs. You've mentioned some of the the amazing um partnerships that you've you've entered into. Now, if people want to find out a bit more about, uh, what you're up to, sonia, about where they can buy a can, small or large, and what you've got coming up in the next few months, because it sounds like there's some really exciting stuff Tell us where we can go to find out more about yourself and about Jump Ship.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so the best place is to go to our website, jumpshipbeer. You can sign up to our newsletter there, where we'll tell you all the latest things and we don't spam or follow us on social media at at jump ship beer.

Speaker 1:

um, yeah, I'll make sure that's all in the show notes for for everybody. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. I've got one question left for you before I let you go, sonia, and it is the question I ask everybody who comes on the show because I believe in spreading the low no love all around the world. So, um, the weather, excuse me is is warming up, it's officially springtime. The sun is shining sometimes, she says, looking out the window at the big clouds. But I'd like you to cast your mind forward a few weeks for me and imagine you're off to a barbecue at a friend's house and you are bringing along some drinks to enjoy. Now, obviously, it will be several, several cases of many varieties of jump ship brewing, understandably so, but other than your own brand. What else would you like to enjoy on a nice sunny barbecue day in the Lono space?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Wilfred's. It's a sort of aperitif style drink um, serve that with some iced tonic and a slice of orange and that's. That's really lovely. So there's a few different sprit styles out there, but that's the one I think. For me it's got kind of a bit of a bit of a bitter note to it, a bit of rosemary in there that I really like. Um. There's um I'm not sure if you can find it outside of scotland there's um. A brilliant um winery ken and more who do like a. It's a sparkling elderflower but it's, it's. It's sort of almost champagne style it's, it's got it's not, it's not too sweet, it's got a lovely sort of floral note to it. So that's and it looks quite special too is to bring that as a present. Lovely um. And uh, yeah, they're probably two of my favorite non-alcoholic um. Maybe a little bit of naughty bubbles as well. It's also good wonderful.

Speaker 1:

What was the name of that? The sparkling elderflower one again, sorry, uh, care no more. Okay, care no more. Right, I will find all of those and link them in the show notes so that people can go and taste some of sonia's favorites for their next barbecue outing. Um, thank you so much for spending excuse me, spending some time with me today. Sonia, it's been lovely chatting to you and hearing more about your, your story. I think that you are an inspiration in the way that you have faced so many challenges in creating and bringing your beer to the world and yet you continue this whole conversation. You've had a smile on your face. You can feel the excitement and the passion for what you do, and I can't wait to see what comes next from Jump Ship. So keep up the amazing work. Thank you so much, denise.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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