Mindful Drinking & Moderation in Midlife: Low No Drinker Podcast

117: Inside the Asahi / Peroni 15% Alcohol-Free Mission

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 117

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This week, I’m joined by Andy Wingate, Asahi UK’s Director of Category, for a fascinating deep dive into the world of big beer and its growing commitment to the alcohol-free market for the companies leading alcohol-free beers, Peroni 0.0 & Asahi Super Dry 0.0.

We get into the real-world challenges the brand faces in bringing 0.0 beer to pubs on draught, as well as the impact of competitor marketing.

We also tackle some of the thornier questions, including whether "Big Alcohol’s" involvement helps or hinders the category. And Andy is refreshingly candid about the balance between commercial goals, genuine cultural change and competitor impact.

You’ll hear how Peroni 0.0 and Asahi 0.0 were created to match their full-strength counterparts as closely as possible, and why Asahi has set itself an ambitious goal of 15% of its global revenue to come from non-alcoholic products.

It’s an honest, insight-packed conversation that shines a light on how even the biggest players are facing challenges adapting to the mindful drinking movement, but why that’s good news overall for all of us who want more choice when we drink differently.

WE CHAT ABOUT
0:00 Andy's story
5:37 Why did Asahi/Peroni join the non-alc space?
8:17 15% target low/no target
12:15 Balancing 0% marketing & full-strength promotion
14:44 The impact of Heineken's ad spend
21:26 The future of alcohol-free Asahi & Peroni in pubs
25:35 Asahi/Peroni 0.0 on draught?
35:37 European-inspired market potential
38:37 The BBQ-Q

https://www.asahibeer.co.uk/

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Try Peroni 0.0 - https://collabs.shop/jgsnbk*

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello, hello, and welcome to another interview episode of the Low No Drinker Podcast: Mindful Drinking and Moderation in Mid Life with me, Denise Hamilton Mace. Today I am joined by a very special guest. That is Mr. Andy Wingate. Now, Andy is, and I'm going to double check I say this right, the uh Asahi UK director of category. And I'm excited to have him with me here to talk about not one, but two of the most notable brands in the big Alk, non-ALK space. The first is obviously Asahi. And the second, interesting story, is the first alcohol-free beer I ever tried, Peroni Zero Zero. So you could say, Andy, that your beer is one of the reasons that I'm here today, because it made me recognize that there are options out there for when people choose to drink differently. So thank you for that and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'm very proud if we started on your journey. That's really, that's really, really positive.

SPEAKER_00:

It is a pretty good start. Well, thank you for joining me. We can talk a bit more about that in in a moment, but it really did make a difference to me. Uh, and it's part of why I have such a passion for this space and for the drinks within the space. Um, but we're here to talk about you. So let's start where you'd like to start. Can you tell me a little bit about your background so that we know who we're talking to and how you've managed to find yourself with me here today?

SPEAKER_01:

I guess the grey hair suggests it's it goes back a few years, but I've I've worked most of my career um in a category management function, which is uh using data, market research, and things like that to understand why consumers make the choices that they do, and then using that information to, I guess, internally to help our marketeers make decisions. But also, and the fun bit as far as I'm concerned, is working with our customers, particularly our bigger customers, and using that information to help them to grow the market, to what nudges they can make to improve consumers' experiences and therefore realistically get them to get them to consume more, either through uh better experience and trading people up, etc. Um, or whatever, just coming back and having if I had a great experience and therefore choosing that outlet again. And so, yeah, that's what I do. And I've done that in a whole series of markets. I started off my career in um random places, and I've done category management for shower gel and washing powder for air fresheners and baby bottles and breast pumps. I've led a random career in that respect. But the whole of it, realistically, I've always seen it as it's the study of people because you're trying to understand why people choose X rather than Y, why they do A versus B. And therefore, the market you're in doesn't really matter. And the markets that I've been most excited about are the ones where things are changing quite quickly that you can see in real time. Um, and about 15 years ago, I was given the opportunity to move into the drink space and work for a beer company who owned Peroni and set up a category team with them, which was a fabulous opportunity and got me into the drink space. And for the last 15 years I've worked there. Um, but the one of the things that's really drawn me to the zero percent market, and obviously I work across both full strength and zero percent, but I'm really, really fascinated by zero percent market is because it's new and I know it's been around for a long time, but the dynamics in it are huge, and there's it's a changing market, it's fast growing, the footprint is expanding and things, and there's lots of interesting, exciting pieces going on, and therefore there's loads of bits for me to get my teeth into. You can see the impact of your work really clearly with different ranges being shown in seen in pubs or on supermarket shelves. Um, and that's really, yeah, I guess I love the the job I do because it's the study of people, but particularly in that no alcohol space where there is uh that that newness, that freshness, that excitement, there's lots of different things going on. And there's loads of loads of things still to get. Whereas in the with the great respect, in the full strength beer market, there's some great brands and they're doing different things, but the trends are very much set and have been set since I was young, realistically. The the excitement actually sits in in the know and low space, particularly at the moment. And there's other things that are going on. The flavoured beer uh with brands like Tubel is really interesting, but yeah, no and low is is really really interesting space. Um, yeah. So that's I guess my journey to working uh very closely with Prony National000 and Asahi Supercharge00. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Low and no is where it's at, Andy. You know, traditional alcohol, it's like we said before we press record, didn't we? It's not it's not going anywhere, but it's not doing anything new and interesting at the moment when you compare it to the way that the low and no market is expanding. And I'm guessing that you've got some great insights. You say, you know, looking at uh working with people and understanding why they make the choices that they do. I'd love to get a little bit of the insight then into what it was that made such a uh global brand like Asahi uh decide that it was time to move into the low-no space. Because you say it's been around for a while, and alcohol-free beer as a thing that people make has been around for centuries. But the market that we know it as we know it now is still a baby, really, isn't it? 100%. So, what was it that made you guys go, do you know what? There's something we need to be doing in this space.

SPEAKER_01:

I think there's uh there's a few bits in that question. Certainly, most of my lifetime, no alcohol beers have been in pubs, have been in supermarkets, and generally they sat dusty on the shelves. Um, and it was something for drivers and and pregnant women uh at best. Um, wasn't particularly treated with any love by publicans, by consumers realistically, and certainly not really by brewers. It was it was brands that uh that you had in your portfolio but didn't get any investment. And then in there were other innovations in that space, but they were generally quite small, and there were some really cool brands, really interesting brands that were around before it. But um Heineken in 2017, I think it was, launched Heineken Zero with a big comms campaign and just made people technology had changed, and you could make a better 0% beer, a technically better tasting 0% beer, um, around that time. And technology has continued to improve over that eight, seven, eight year period. But that their their comms campaign made a load of people re-evaluate what zero percent beer might might be like and took away a load of the negative connotations that there was for some of the more historic brands, whether fair or not. Um and Huckninken did a great job for the industry in that respect, in terms of shining a light and saying, actually, re-evaluate your opinion. Um and I thought that was really cool. And that's then shone a light, which people like Lucky Saint have enjoyed, and the and the growth that they're seeing is really, really cool. Uh, you know, and and we saw that and wanted to get involved. It's so there, don't get me wrong, there is a commercial aspect in it, 100%, of course. We are we're a big corporate company and have shareholders, but equally, it was certainly in the UK and in a lot of Western Europe, the overall level of beer is declining, and we want to expand our footprint to sure up our business in that respect. So there is an element of reaction to that, but it's an exciting and dynamic growth segment of the marketplace. So obviously, it's a place that we want to be involved. We want to have those conversations with retailers, we want to be at the forefront of lots of expanding markets. It's certainly massively important to our business, partly because you know, we've got some very dynamic brands. It's it's interesting, it's it's the conversation that's happening in the industry. A lot of it is around uh 0% and how you can harness that. But equally, from uh, I guess from corporate objectives being handed down, uh our parent company in Japan have set a clear target to our European business that we want 15% of our volume to come from no alcohol, non-alcoholic products. Um, our current UK business that's about 4%. So we've got a big stretch goal. Um, and yes, it's a European target. UK may well not have to deliver 15 itself, but if we're delivering four, then we're really under putting pressure on the other markets in Europe. And so it is important to us. It also fits with Peroni's brand identity of being progressive and and a whole bunch of things in that sort of space. Sahi Super Dry heavily over-indexes amongst younger consumers, where moderation is much more of a uh a focus, certainly for social reasons. And so, yeah, there's a it's a dynamic part of the market, it's really interesting, and we can we can make a really positive impact on the market, but also on society. It's it's the right thing to do. And I guess from a personal journey perspective, um, I've seen it, I've worked in the in the beer industry for for coming up 15 years now, I guess. And a number of our colleagues, you know, the beer industry, particularly if you work in the on-trade, if you work with pubs uh and bars and restaurants, is a sociable industry. There's lots of visiting pubs to see refits and reopenings, and and there's a whole load of socializing that you do as part of your job, and that's really great. It's one of the real perks of the job. But it became difficult. And I I'm fortunate enough to never have worked in a company that forced you to drink our product. So that's never been a situation I've been in. But there was always that implicit, I want to support my brands, etc. And if you're going out a couple of times a week, having a 0% option where you can still support your brands is actually really, really nice. And that's you know, in terms of the moderating your own alcohol intake, is a real positive. And seeing that for the microcosm that is people who work in the beer industry, and then seeing how that reflects out into the wider society is actually really, really positive and really nice. Um, and you see that change in society. Like I'm I'm 49, uh, so I went to university in the 90s. Um, before fees, I actually got paid to go because I got a grant. It's one life was wonderful back then. Um, but back when I was at university, there was a couple of people on my in my halls of residence who didn't drink alcohol, and they were treated with suspicion. And it was like, that's a when you look back, that's a terrible statement on society. And the way society has changed that now, whether you call it zebra striping or alternating or or whatever, but that behavior of flipping in and flipping out between full strength and zero, or starting with zero and then moving on to full strength, however you you interact with it, or just drinking no alcohol, it's a thousand times more socially acceptable, and that's massive success for society. Um, yeah, there's I so yeah, I think from uh going back to your your question rather than going off on a random tangent, um, yeah, there is, don't get me wrong, a commercial aspect to it, but it's also a really positive for society, a really dynamic segment of the market. It allows us to have really positive conversations with our customers because it's part of their you know CSR agendas and things like that. It works very well with the the government bodies that oversee our industry and and embracing those sorts of things is just positive for all aspects of the business. Um, and we are very lucky that every time you say Peroni Nashro00.0%, which is possibly the longest brand name in the in the industry. It's a little long, but every time you say Peroni Zero Zero, you say the word Peroni. So all our advertising that we do around Peroni 00, uh around the Formula One and our partnerships with Ferrari, etc., the partnership with Manchester City, is also a halo effect on our bigger uh full strength brand. So we can over-index in our investment on 0% and really have it the center of things, knowing that actually, whilst maybe some of those decisions would be better spent on the the full strength brand, actually you get double your your impact because you're supporting both. Um and so yeah, there's uh there's a bunch of commercials in there, but equally there's some wanting posit to see wanting to support positive change, both with our customers and with consumers.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's it's interesting that you say that. And I'm really glad that you you broached that because I I spend a lot of time with uh largely independent brands in this space, because obviously the majority of brands in no no are going to be the small up-and-comer independents. Um, and uh to play devil's advocate, there is a sense amongst the uh independent brands that big alcohol firms such as yourself are really benefiting from the fact, as you say, that whenever you promote your 0% options, you're also promoting your full strength options. Now, whether that be through uh sponsorship of, you know, there's obviously big brands with big sporting partnerships. You mentioned a couple yourself, we're talking about things like rugby and Formula One and stateside as well, with baseball and basketball and all those sorts of things. How do you manage that that communication piece around getting the word out about your 0.0 options for both uh Peroni and for Asahi with the responsibility between not over-indexing on your full strength by using your low-no as a way to just sort of get it in there? Because I think a lot of the low-no brands are concerned against playing devil's advocate, that it might just be uh an opportunity for Big Alp to just take over and get their full strength drinks in front of everyone by just tacking on a zero percent just to you know tick that box. What do you say to those?

SPEAKER_01:

Um I think I think that's uh a tough view on on decision making. And I think I think if I'm honest, anyone who doesn't and I I talk about a competitor here, anyone who doesn't credit Heineken with being in some respects the key driver of the explosion that has happened within zero percent is unrealistic because that with the great respect to the some beautiful brands that existed and were making making lots of lovely things, lots of brilliant br drinks, beers, spirits, whatever, there's actually a few a few brands which are the people who brought it to consumer attention that have the the the ad spend, the however you know the the leverage with supermarkets to get it into public public attention. And that then, you know, Heineken, don't get me wrong, have uh are still number one in the off-trade. I think they're number two in from a lager perspective, number two slash three, where uh because Guinness is also have a very strong brand, but they don't own that space because a load of they will have introduced zero percent to a load of people, and then they've looked at the fixture and seen Lucky Saint or seen you know uh a thousand different the thousand different options from little craft brands from different brewers, big and small, and it allows consumers to to evaluate that fixture, play around, try different things. But without that ad spend that they did, I think a load of people would still be talking about one of the gentlemen you you interviewed a few weeks ago talked about the three Bs of Bavaria, uh Bitburger and Bex.

SPEAKER_00:

Becks, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It was pretty much the hierarchy, it was pretty much the 0% fixture for the vast majority of people. There were some fabulous brands around at the same time, but no one knew about them. And so Heineken's Ad Spend, and following that, our ad spend, our supporting with you know, our relationships with Aston Martin Formula One, with Ferrari Formula One, um Corona Cerro has done big ad campaigns, brings people to that fixture, and when they're there, they might see other things. Hopefully, they will see other things and try different things. So, yeah, big beer, if you want to use that terminology. Um, yeah, we are there. Obviously, we want people to drink prony, we are trying to get people to drink prony, but more most importantly, we want to grow, and particularly when the conversation I spoke about earlier about the the um the scale of our ambition of wanting 15% of our volume to come through zero alcohol um options, non-alcoholic options, zero alcohol in the UK is about three and a half percent of beer. We cannot deliver that target by stealing share, particularly by stealing share off the little guys. We have to grow the market if we're gonna deliver on those. So communicating to consumers and showing them different occasions where 0% beer or non-alcoholic options are relevant is really, really important to us. Getting, you know, the movements that we've seen in terms of getting beers into meal deals in the supermarkets, pulling it onto menus in pubs and things to make it more relevant to other occasions is actually what we're really trying to do because ripping off the little guys is a really short-term gain. We've got to grow the market, and arguably that's what my whole career has been about. It's about working with supermarkets and with pubs to grow the market. That's what we're at. So, yeah, we are, I guess, taking you know the big brands and taking the uh a decent chunk of the marketplace. But I think they're all, I certainly most of them, are growing that market at the same time. I think where there is challenge are the the big brands who are just dumping a product on shelf and not supporting it. I think the brands that are then communicating with consumers trying to do different things and expand the market. So yeah, I don't I don't think it's one size fits all. Um, and I yeah, obviously I sit on one side of that fence and big beer equals bad, small beer, uh craft beer equals good is a very lacking a load of nuance.

SPEAKER_00:

Nuance, yeah. I gotta be honest, I gotta be honest with you, Andy. I I actually uh think that big elk, uh big beer, big whatever in this space, I personally think it's a good thing. I think that it, as you said yourself, it it gives exposure to the category. And I don't think that for those of you who are watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see behind me there's obviously the Peroni 0.0 and the Asahi 0.0, but there's also a lot of other brands around. And I don't think that those brands would be able to get quite the same reach if it wasn't for the fact that we now see brands like yours supporting things like we said, Formula One, Guinness with the with the rugby, uh, Gordon's advertising their full and their alcohol free on on television. Um, and I completely sympathize with the frustration of independent brands that they will not be able to do that kind of marketing. But what I do think, and and and don't take this uh in any negative way, is that people will find your beers, that will be their introduction into the category, and then they'll go, okay, that's great. What else can I have? I've had a few of these now. What else is out there? Um, because as I said, uh Peroni 0.0 was the first alcohol-free beer that I ever tried. I was at my husband's work event and I wanted something. I said, Oh, they've got that. Let me try it. And I was I was amazed. I was amazed that it tasted so similar to full strength beer. Not that I was a big beer drinker before, but you know, I've worked in pubs for 24 years. I know what beer tastes like. Uh, and I was amazed. And, you know, I had a few, and the next time I was out, I had a few. But then after that, I was like, okay, but what else can I have? You know, what else is uh available? But that's just life, right? Nobody wants the same.

SPEAKER_01:

100% people, particularly in beer, people have repertoires of brands they like, and and there are very few people who I know the only beer I drink is Peroni, because otherwise they're really limited in their choice of pubs. Like we aren't that well distributed out there. Um, and it's exactly the same with 0%. There'll be occasions when you think Peroni is the right brand, and great, thank you very much. I appreciate you supporting our business, but there are other times when you see, lucky saying, or big drop or whoever is the right beer for that occasion because that's the image you want to portray at that moment, that's the taste profile you're looking for, whatever it may be. And that's the joy of the joy of any market.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Speaking of of pubs, then that's something I wanted to come on to because um we were saying uh before, weren't we, that you know, that that drinking culture, uh going to the pub, having a pipe with your mates or with your Sunday rest is very much a part of British culture. Uh, and most of the Western world as well, you know, alcohol forms part of that way that you're socializing as an accompaniment to whatever you're doing. Alcohol-free options uh in the on-trade uh are a bone of contention for uh a lot of people because uh some places have got it fantastically well, some places are doing really well. Most places still have quite uh a way to go. And one of the things that uh most beer drinkers want is more draft because people like to have a pint. Um, you're obviously available uh in supermarkets, on on shelves, online, and in pubs. What does the future of Peroni 0.0 and Asahi 0.0 in the on-trade look like for those who want to incorporate that lono way of drinking into their public socializing?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Um I think there are two things that I would mention on that. One thing that I think pubs need to pubs need to consider, but there are lots of uh we've done a whole load of research on things like the communications that pubs can put out to their to their consumer base, whether that's for an A-board outside or on their website or whatever it is, the messages that they can send, their social media, however. And a lot of them say, you know, we sell Peroni, which, if I'm honest, is broadly irrelevant to consumers because almost every pub sells Peroni or something like Peroni, something that you could choose. So we've always, certainly most of my career, I've been telling pubs that with their communications to their consumer base, you've got to tell them something new and interesting about the about the their offer. So whether that's an event that's coming up, you know, where we've got a live mic, yeah, open mic night, we've got live music, the football is on, whatever, but giving me a reason to go, I guess potentially a price discount if you're doing a happy hour type thing. But the other key point is a part of your range, which isn't necessarily expected. So a few years ago, pubs should have put on their blackboards, we've got a cracking range of craft beer, if that's what they had, to get people, oh, I didn't realise that pub had craft beer. Now craft beer is broadly ubiquitous across the vast majority of pubs, have a decent enough craft range. So that's not a conversation. That's not telling me anything new. One thing that is telling people something new is actually, we've got a really awesome section of no alcohol options that if you aren't drinking for whatever reason, uh you know, and the thousand different reasons you can have for not drinking, still come here. You are absolutely welcome. And tell you what, we've got an amazing selection. So, in terms of their communications, pubs should certainly be using no alk options as a vehicle for gaining consumers' attention because it changes the number of occasions that I'm thinking of. If I don't want to drink and pubs aren't welcoming for people who don't want to drink alcohol, I'm gonna go to the coffee shop. And that's an occasion lost. If I if I if I know that pubs are absolutely welcoming and they have a fabulous range of 0% options, actually, maybe that occasion switches to my local pub, and that's winning for the pub. Um, so that communications piece is really important. Equally, to deliver that communication properly, you do therefore need to have a decent range of now alcohol options. So, yes, have a range rather than just one option, etc. The fridge is a you know uh 0% is a big part of the fridge uh sales, certainly from a beer perspective, and make sure it's front and centre so people can see it, potentially tell them in the pub with blackboards and things, but communicate it because it's something new and different about pubs, with a with the exceptions of the ones that already do it brilliantly. So getting a better range and communicating it, massively important from the on-trade. But the other piece, and you touched on it, draft is 93% of lago, the vast majority of beer sold in the UK comes through draft. And currently there are very little options, very few options of 0% draft that generally, if you're drinking no alcohol beer, you're going to be getting a bottle product. Um certainly if you drink it in the on-train, obviously. Um and there are challenges to delivering that, but we are we certainly, and and certainly I know a number of other companies have options out there, are doing trials, are pushing it out there, but it's technically a different thing, a difficult thing. Alcohol is a preservative, and so drinks without alcohol um is more challenging in terms of freshness of the product. You know, you can get alcohol being created in the lines of the pub and things, which obviously we really don't want. If you've bought a proni zero zero, you want it to be 0.0. You don't want tiny amounts happening in there. So we need to be really careful with those trials. There's various different mechanics you can do it, but it it can be very expensive in terms of extra chilling of lines and things and incur significant costs either to the pub or the brewery, which makes it difficult, or you can do other people are doing it in a very phased rollout of just delivering uh installing it in pubs that have fabulous throughputs, and so just by sheer power of speed of turnover, nothing bad has an opportunity to go wrong. So having that sort of much more measured approach. Um, and we are trialing different options in both those spaces. We've got some trials at the moment around Peroni Nasto000 um around draft options, and uh it looks really positive. We expect to be rolling it out uh in the in the next 12 months or next yeah, start of next year, we'll be looking to expand our footprint. But it certainly isn't going to go everywhere because the scale of the 0% market isn't big enough yet for it to be in every pub. It wouldn't deliver the volume that's needed to get that throughput, to get the that number of serves happening and make sure we deliver top quality, fresh, fresh beer. Because I guess one of the challenges, you know, if you you referenced it earlier of the relationship between 0% our our 0% brand and our full strength brands, if you have a really terrible experience on the 0% brand, that's also gonna not look great. You know, your risk your perception of our full strength brands also gonna be impacted. So, yeah, we need to be really careful on those things. So I do see draft as the fundamental unlock to expanding the category quite significantly because it is a big under trade in the on-trade compared to the off-trade, so in pubs compared to supermarkets, but it won't be the silver bullet for everyone. And so, yes, we should see it going into a number, a significant number of pubs, whether it's from us or one of our one of our competitors, but it's not going to be everywhere. And so the pubs where they don't have the footfall, the right occasion isn't necessarily there to deliver draft, have to do packaged really well, have to do bottles and cans really well, have to have a really great uh range of options and do the things that I said around the first time. So, yeah, we are looking at it, we are trialing it, we have some really positive results. I'm pretty confident, albeit don't quote me, that it will launch next year because you know we're we're checking a bunch of things. But yeah, there will be an option coming out next year, um, and we're really excited about it, but it's gonna be a measured approach because putting it everywhere isn't right for either ourselves or the pubs themselves.

SPEAKER_00:

I guess it's a bit of a chicken and an egg, chicken and the egg sort of situation, isn't it? Because as you as you mentioned, if a pub doesn't have enough footfall to make sure that they're going to sell it, then there's no point in putting it in there. But if people don't see it in those pubs, they don't know to ask for it and then they're not gonna so it it is quite circular. I think it's quite uh interesting and refreshing to have uh such a large uh corporation as yourself come on and say that look, we want to do this, but it's hard even for us, because as I've said, you know, when I speak to an independent, you can understand that them trying to get a line from a big brand and put an alcohol free is going to be challenging. But for that big brand itself to say, look, we want to put this in, but there are extra challenges that even we need to overcome. Uh and I think it's important for people listening to know that those challenges are about making sure that it's safe for you as well. It's not, I appreciate that from a business perspective, you want to make sure it's going to make you money, but also from a consumer perspective, I want to make sure that what people are having, having worked in pubs for a long time, you know, that those lines are going to be clean, that the beer is going to be moving through it. Uh, and and one point you made that many people don't recognise is that the beer will still be active while it's in those lines, while it's sitting in that barrel. And if it doesn't move through fast enough, it might not be 0.0. By the time you get it. And if that's the reason why you're choosing it, then you need to know that you're getting what you asked for.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's a quality message. We want to make sure that we are pouring the best perfect quality product we can. And to do that, we'll need to make a measure process.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's touch on the two brands then. For those who for some reason have not yet come across a Peroni 0.0 or an Asahi 0.0, can you talk just a little bit on the flavor profiles in terms of perhaps how they they compare perhaps to their full strength counterparts or what people can expect from the drinking experience? Because ultimately, for my listeners, they want the experience of having a drink that they know is going to make them feel as included as they would have done any other time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think that's uh certainly from a no alcohol perspective, that's the biggest biggest fundamental in all the consumer research that we've done is that I don't want to have to compromise because I've I've chosen not to drink alcohol on this occasion. And I think from a beer perspective, it's it's not so bad. But certainly I've seen pubs in the past where if you order a full strength gin and tonic, it comes in a balloon glass with all the trimmings and you know the right the right garnish. And if you if I'm having a no alcohol gin, I still want all the theatre, I still want all the beauty because I want I'm paying for that experience, and just because uh the alcohol is not in it, I still want that experience. And I think from a beer perspective, a bottle of Peroni and a bottle of Peroni Zero Zero is roughly similar. I still want that full experience. So whilst the serve is the same, it's not quite the same as a gin and tonic being being downgraded. But I do want if I'm choosing Peroni Nash Zero, I want a Peroni. I want it to taste like Peroni. And so our brewers have been really, really clear in trying to match the flavour as much as possible is absolutely the target. It's not about brewing a different beer that tastes different, that tastes better, tastes worse, whatever. It's about trying to match that. I think Peroni is really good, it's really close, it has that fresh crispness. Um, one of the, and I'm gonna sound like a brand parrot now, but Peroni has has a special maze in a maze called Nostromo Della Solo maze uh as part of the brewing process, which gives it a really clean, fresh, crisp finish. And Peroni Nash Zero Zero Zero has exactly the same, the ingredients are the same. We brew essentially full strength Peroni and then de-alcoholise it with a with a with a system. But the idea is then to make it taste exactly the same. So that clean, crisp, fresh taste of Peroni that people know and hopefully love that is available. If you think Peroni is right for this occasion, um, but you don't want alcohol, then Peroni00 is perfect. Um Asahi Super Dry obviously comes from Japan and is a classic Asian Pilsner uh rice notes in there, so that means it is a lighter, easier drinking taste. It doesn't quite have the same continental flavour that Peroni does. It's a bit cleaner, is a bit fresher, lighter, certainly easier drinking, is what our full strength tastes like. And I think, particularly on Asahi Super Dry, the 0% absolutely nails that uh that that easy drinking freshness. And I think the the the two beers together are almost indistinguishable. Technically, it's it's a brilliant zero percent option. So, yeah, from a from a flavour perspective, uh our ambition is to deliver exactly the the experience that consumers want from our full strength beers without the alcohol, and I think we broadly nail it, which is really nice.

SPEAKER_00:

I I must tell you that um whilst the Peroni 0.0 was the first uh alcohol-free beer I tried, the uh the Asahi Super Dry 0.0 is my husband's uh favourite alcohol-free lager. Uh, and and he likes that he can get them uh on the way home from work as well. And he's had a really stressful day. You know, you pop into your uh Marks and Spencer's or or other retailers are available, and you you grab your your can, your your train can, and you know, he loves that he can have a nice then you still get that beer experience without the without any question about whether you can drive get in the car when you get to the end of the end of the train, your train journey or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Andy, there are so many um other questions that I that I have and so many areas that we could take this conversation in. I I'm really grateful that you've been quite candid um with your answers today and and not shied away from the fact that uh you're not in this inner vacuum. Uh, there are other brands who are doing things uh alongside you um and and what you're aiming for. Uh I was going to ask you about the the the future of uh alcohol-free for the company, but you've already touched on the fact that you've got this a massive um goal, which is the 15%, which I think is one of the things I'm really going to take away from this conversation, is that the plan is to have 15% of um the company turnover coming from the no uh non-alcoholic options. Um I personally think that we are on track to see that happen. The way that we are drinking is changing fundamentally. Um, this is not a fad, as I've often said, this is a culture shift.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a very long fad if it's a fad, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Very long fad. Uh and it's happening all over the world. Um, and although the UK is often seen as leading this, actually, um you mention other territories. You know, you look at places like Germany and Spain, where alcohol-free beer is way past the 3% that you mentioned for us here in the UK. I mean, you'll know the numbers better than I do. Germany's about nine, 10%.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And we look at the the markets that we see as most similar culturally, Germany and Netherlands, particularly, would be would be two of those, and they're both three times our size. That's certainly where we are forecasting, you know, expecting the market to get to. So therefore, it's massively important. Unlocks a you know, draft in the on-trade, as I spoke about, but equally, how can we expand the footprint in the off-trade is also things that we are looking at, you know, how can you get into more occasions? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Absolutely. So I, you know, I I think it's great to see uh these changes taking place and to see a brand like yours taking it so seriously. Uh and I generally get the impression that this isn't just something that you're tacking on to tick a box. You really are putting time, effort, resources, finances, people into making sure that those of us out there who want to drink differently have something familiar that they can lean towards. And I think that's really um important. Uh, two things before I let you go. Um, the first uh maybe slightly unnecessary uh considering the size of the brands, but I always ask where people can go to find out a bit more about you. Um I won't ask where they can go to buy a bottle because I'm pretty sure that people can figure out uh where to find uh a bottle or a can of uh Peroni 0.0 or Sahi 0.0. But if people do want to follow along on the journey, where would you like to send them?

SPEAKER_01:

Um I guess obviously we are distributed in in most supermarkets, pretty much all supermarkets, all certainly major supermarkets. Yeah. Um we will have a presence, we're in a lot of pubs, and you get to taste the real thing. If you want more information, obviously we have uh websites, we have social media, search button pretty much uh covers it all. Um yeah, so yeah, there's a whole load of information out there. We are we have a strong internet presence and yeah, really good. We're very lucky enough, very lucky to have good distribution with our retail partners. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Uh uh I will put some links in the show notes for people who uh if they do want to to find out a little bit more to follow this for the social medias. Uh and as I said, if you do want to buy uh a bottle or a can of either, then yeah, just go to pretty much any supermarket or online retailers. Or online retailers also exist. Yeah. Um, so it's time for my final question, Andy, which is something that I ask everybody who comes on the show because I truly believe in spreading the love for low-no and light drinks around the world. Uh, we are coming to the end of our summer, it's autumn now. Uh, but just in case there's one last barbecue for the season, um, and you're off to have a lovely time with your friends, and on this occasion, you've decided that you're not drinking full strength alcohol. Other than your own two fabulous brands, uh, what else in the low, no, or light alcohol space would you like to enjoy on a lovely sunny barbecue day?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I think, and it is a lovely day out there actually at the moment. Um, so could imagine barbecues in mid-late September. Um, I read uh I we did some research at one of the companies I worked at, which talked about the the beauty of round buying and talked to consumers about buying rounds, and they talked about the the beauty in it that you give someone a gift and you have all the warm feelings of giving someone a gift, safe in the knowledge that in an hour's time they're gonna give you one back and you're not gonna be out of pocket. It it's the best sort of gift giving. Um, and it was a really lovely thing. And I I then um have a theory that uh Bailey's full strength Bailey's uh is a beer that has never been uh sorry, is a beer, is a drink that is never ordered as one Bailey's because if you're in a round of people and someone says I'll have a Bailey's, suddenly three or four people are like, oh yes, I'll have a Bailey's too, because it's low on awareness, but people have uh you know, oh yeah, that's really interesting. Uh let's go back to that. Like um, it's not uh front of mind. And I think ginger beer is that for me, that I never drink ginger beer, but if someone says a ginger beer, it's suddenly all I want. And the best thing about going to a barbecue is if you uh you want to take a quantity of drink um and it be drunk. Like the worst thing is if you've bought a a four-pack and you walk out at the end of the night and see those four bottles still sat there, and it's like, God, I'm a rubbish friend. I've bought something rubbish, particularly if you work in the drinks industry and people expect you to know your stuff. Uh but I think ginger beer is in that, that it's not front of mind for many people, but everyone loves it and reminisces. And so if you saw ginger beer in the in the ice bucket, you're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna have a ginger beer, and that's that's winning on those sorts of occasions.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so you're a ginger beer man over ginger ale. Uh yeah, ginger beer. Okay, all right, fantastic. Well, there are plenty of wonderful ginger beers out there. Um, so I understand why you'd enjoy one of those for a barbecue day. Andy, thank you so much for joining me today. I really do appreciate you taking the time to have a chat with me. As I said before, it's been really insightful to see into uh the workings and the reasonings of a large alcohol brand in this space. Uh, and I hope to see the rollouts that you've got planned in terms of uh more uh draft and pub activations and the growth that you see for the market. I look forward to watching that unfold over the next 12 months and beyond. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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