UX Gym Podcast

Ep. 58: The State of UX Job Market - A Hiring Nightmare

• Bonanza Studios GmbH

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In this episode of the UX Gym Podcast, hosts Hassan, Behrad, and Jarek dive deep into the current state of the UX job market. They discuss the challenges they've faced while hiring new UX talent, including a noticeable decline in application quality and a lack of passion and creativity in many portfolios.

The hosts explore the root causes of this trend, such as the overuse of templates and reliance on certifications over real-world experience. They emphasize the importance of a strong portfolio, continuous learning, experimentation, and effective communication skills.

A key takeaway from the episode is the significance of the design process. The hosts highlight the need for a genuine, messy process, rather than a checklist approach. They stress the importance of showcasing innovation and problem-solving skills, even if it means sharing imperfect work.

The episode also delves into the importance of passion and dedication. The hosts discuss the need for a certain level of obsession with design, and the willingness to go the extra mile, even if it means working on personal projects or taking on challenging tasks for free.

Whether you're a seasoned UX professional or a budding designer, this episode offers valuable insights into the current job market and provides practical tips for navigating the hiring process.

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Hello and welcome to the UX Gym Podcast.

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The podcast designed to be a personal trainer in the UX career.

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Nice to meet you.

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I'm Hassan, producer at Bonanza Studios and your new host

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over here with me, there's Behrad, CEO of Bonanza Studios.

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How's it going, Behrad?

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Thank you very much, sir. I could also hear me.

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We have Jarek, co-founder of UX Gym.

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Hello. All good .

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Today we're going to discuss the state of job searching in the UX world.

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We have been in the hiring trenches trying to find a new talent for our company.

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So far, we have received over 250 applicants

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and said yes to only 34 out of all the yeses.

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Only 12 have partook in our test phases.

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None got to pass so far.

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Behrad, what's your opinion on this?

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We started job searching.

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I think it's been over a month now.

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Maybe almost two months.

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Two months and

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this is not the first time that we hire.

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It won't be the last time. And.

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I am surprised.

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Compared to all the previous times

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that we hired.

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We are seeing a completely different

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dynamic in the job market.

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One that worries me and one that

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prompted us to

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record this podcast.

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I give

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a background

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context,

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and then I will hand it off to Jarek

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to sort of like walk us through some of the observations,

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quantitative and qualitative.

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So previously we have hired in the past

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almost five years hires.

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And filled similar roles.

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And in the past

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it has taken us

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time.

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But typically within 2 or 3 rounds

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we managed to find

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the person you're looking for.

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Mind you, at Bonanza.

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Our application process

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and what we want to see in.

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Applicants

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to move forward to the next stage is very easy.

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We just need to see a very interesting portfolio,

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a good and exciting character

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and followed up by a task

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that we offer to

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anyone that passed the initial screening.

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So as long as you have a great portfolio

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and interesting person ability

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and did a good job on the task, we would talk to you.

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I will try to see how we can get you on board.

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In the past, typically within 2

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or 3 rounds of searching, we would find.

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But so far currently we've been surprised

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regarding the quality of the application that we are receiving.

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We are worried

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and we would like to allocate this

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episode to talk about what we are seeing.

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So with this introduction, I would like to pass it on to Jarek.

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Are you okay?

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Hopefully we shed

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more light to our observation.

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Yeah.

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First and foremost, maybe let's break down a bit

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the recommendation process that we've established.

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Previously, when we were recruiting, we had an initial call,

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beforehand.

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And then for everyone that applied,

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and past the initial call, it was probably with me.

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We've sent out a task.

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It was fairly basic.

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One not to the extent of the one that we currently have.

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We still have a very simple one, but it was a very, very simple one.

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And after the task, we either provided a feedback

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or move forward with a call with that.

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And this worked,

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because there weren't that many applicants first and foremost.

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I think we had path of what we currently are facing.

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And there were a lot of good portfolios, and there were a lot of

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the very decent ones.

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So we decided to just first start with the call, then move to the task.

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With the current scenario,

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our past on like a year,

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and we are facing a lot problems we are facing now.

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We've changed our recruitment process a bit to start with the task.

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And the reason behind that was, with the within

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the first batch, we've got, like, around a hundred applicants,

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and most of them at the portfolios

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were very, very good.

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We, as we thought initially,

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so we.

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Okay, we are not capable of having that many calls as a small team.

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So let's start with a design task.

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And actually, because design task is not very,

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very demanding time wise.

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And I think skill and resources wise, as well.

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It's a good start because we can filter out pretty quickly

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if you pass to Bonanza, or we should, not be collaborating at this point.

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And but we've also kept the feedback,

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for everyone that created a task, just to be fair,

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and just give something back if you're willing

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to spend some time to get in.

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We need to also spend some time to giving you feedback. Why?

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We rejected a certain applicants.

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So this right now, this is the process.

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We start with a design task

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and, going forward with couple of notes.

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When I saw, like,

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starting even with a job posting that that night,

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the first thing that we faced was

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we knew that people do not tend to read things fully.

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And it was an issue before, but

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this time it was bizarre

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to a point where like to give you a context,

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at the end of job posting, we said, please do not apply with LinkedIn.

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Just send us your portfolio

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on the,

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at the email.

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So, teams at Bonanza,

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and I would like

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fill like 10 to 15% people actually send out the portfolio.

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Other ones were either DMing us

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on LinkedIn or using easy Apply on LinkedIn.

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And we were like, okay, what's going on?

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That's the first concern that we have.

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Like literally people did not read the fully the job description,

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which creates a lot of noise on our end because

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and it just simply doesn't make any sense.

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Like if you want to work with us, just spend.

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It's not very extensive description.

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It's like probably 7 to 10 sentences.

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So that was first concern.

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The other one was we are we're directly saying that we not necessarily like

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we're trying to create this

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feeling that we don't care about certificates.

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We don't care about your degree.

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We just want to see your work.

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And most of the applicants,

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made it very hard for us to see their work.

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So either they're we're not sending links to portfolios.

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They were sending PDFs.

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They were sending 6 to 7

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attachments with certificates of completing UX, Google course

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and other bootcamps, which is.

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You don't care.

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Unfortunately, just this is a harsh reality.

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Like 99% of people in this,

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industry already has some sort of a certificate.

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So that's not the differentiator.

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And, so like the first step was concern.

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Like, people do not read, but we are okay, fine.

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Let's just look at the portfolios,

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and we've spent some time on this.

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And better you can also add to it, but,

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first and foremost,

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most of like a lot of them looked very nice at the first glance.

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But the more you looked into it and look, for example, in case studies,

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you could quickly realize that something is off because the portfolio

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looked almost as good as any other very big brand agencies websites.

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But then you go into the case studies and you can see

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like drinking water up with three screens.

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And and just like using some random template to create it.

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And I was like, okay, what's happening here?

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And I'm maybe I'm a bit old fashioned,

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but I like didn't fully understood

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how big industry of portfolio templates

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is because there are hundreds and they're free to use.

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And you can like accommodated super quickly.

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And when I realized that, I talked to one of our designers at Bonanza Studios

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about that with Christina, and she shared with me, yeah, there is a bunch of,

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templates you can use, like, oh, okay, I've checked it.

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And literally like from hundreds of people that applied, like,

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have used templates that I could find.

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And immediately when I see a template and I see a case study

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that's not on par with the design, I'm like, okay,

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that means probably

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this person either is a junior, are very, very junior or even an intern

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or just doesn't spend enough time

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to prepare for the,

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for the application.

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What are your thoughts on this?

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Behrad, I'm very curious.

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So I have not.

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Screened all applicants

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for a period of time that

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York was on holidays.

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I did that.

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I went through

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the initial batch

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and did the initial screening.

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No, for most, yes.

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And maybe for some. And.

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One thing that struck me was.

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That, you know,

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design is a craft.

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Like sculpture, painting, design.

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You only get better at the craft.

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But practicing.

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Right.

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It's a different case if you want to become

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a physicist.

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Right.

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Sometime, if you know a physicist, let's just think like,

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be somewhere to get inspired to come up with the moment practice.

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Also, as a mathematician, you need to be practicing too.

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So it's not only, our field.

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And essentially, if you want to get good at anything, you need to create a lot,

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right?

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One thing that is, very pervasive in my observation

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is that.

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I don't see.

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The passion

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in portfolios, the the excitement for the craft.

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And seeing that a person

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has tried different.

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Projects work on different projects.

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I don't expect them.

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You know, for a talented designer that's coming up, I don't expect them to be doing

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to be involved in many projects.

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But they could easily go extra

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mile in their portfolios and

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craft a really good

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portfolio with their exploratory works.

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We also like that we just want to see

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that you are creating, always creating, always be creating.

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Davey. Day out, day in, day out.

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I don't see that.

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I really don't see that.

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And that's,

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and I've seen it in

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a tiny portion of, portfolios.

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Right.

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Another surprise I had, even

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within those tiny portion that we got excited about.

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We asked them to do this test,

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and this test takes should take you only about five hours.

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To be honest.

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And and we're going to actually publish

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this test next week on social media.

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It's basically about come up with one concept

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to improve social media search algorithm using AI.

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That's it.

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You could basically do a wireframe

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like pen on paper

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and come up with something really cool that excites us.

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That's enough for us

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to set up a call with you and get to know you.

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Right?

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So we have.

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Received.

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To be fair, previously we get given folks

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a much different task that requires a lot of interface development

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and not a lot, but they needed to create one screen.

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It's a dashboard.

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So we thought like, okay, maybe it's

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not the best way of testing them.

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Maybe just, you know, reducing

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to one mobile screen, potentially because it's social media.

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So they can really focus on a smaller real estate but work more on the concept.

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Right?

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So, some of these folks that I have,

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we shortlisted them and given this

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task to them,

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we look at their portfolio.

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Well, we look at their work

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with their submission, not about.

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So if you're looking at a portfolio that is wowing you

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and you get excited about and then you ask them

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to submit a task and then they submit a task,

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but you basically fall off a cliff

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when you look at the submission.

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So from very excited to or what's going on,

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we ask ourself then what is

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this disconnect?

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We see?

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I cannot still justify this disconnect.

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It's also super important to mention that

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that problem within the industry that designers cannot the

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the real designers cannot find a job and companies are struggling

00:16:22:13 - 00:16:26:06
and cutting corners by having lower salaries

00:16:26:14 - 00:16:30:00
or extending the recruitment process and so on and so on.

00:16:31:07 - 00:16:33:06
This is a very hard problem.

00:16:33:06 - 00:16:39:02
And one of the things that make this recruitment process very tough

00:16:39:12 - 00:16:41:02
is the noise.

00:16:41:02 - 00:16:44:02
What I mean by that is.

00:16:45:06 - 00:16:47:13
Where are you when you are applying

00:16:47:13 - 00:16:50:13
to find a job, you need to treat it as a UX problem,

00:16:50:18 - 00:16:53:21
and you need to put yourself in the recruiter's shoes.

00:16:54:06 - 00:16:58:04
So let's say I'm applying to certain jobs.

00:16:58:18 - 00:17:02:15
You need to understand that there are unfortunately,

00:17:02:15 - 00:17:06:03
but truly hundreds of people that are applying to the same job

00:17:07:21 - 00:17:09:20
and recruiter becomes

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:13:23
very, very annoyed by small things that they need to do.

00:17:14:02 - 00:17:18:13
If your portfolio is very slow to load, they will need to take

00:17:18:13 - 00:17:23:00
5 to 6 seconds more to review it so they become more annoyed.

00:17:23:00 - 00:17:25:05
And the reason behind that, it's not you.

00:17:25:05 - 00:17:26:21
On the applying to the position.

00:17:26:21 - 00:17:30:21
There are 200 of those and if every would send their portfolio

00:17:30:21 - 00:17:34:09
within the PDF, you get very tired very quickly.

00:17:34:17 - 00:17:38:18
So even if you have your the best portfolio possible,

00:17:38:22 - 00:17:42:23
but you are at the end of the funnel, you could get ignored because of purely

00:17:43:14 - 00:17:47:08
because of the frustration of the people that are recruiting.

00:17:48:10 - 00:17:50:08
So you need to make

00:17:50:08 - 00:17:53:10
the reviewing your work at the beginning

00:17:53:16 - 00:17:57:20
as easy as possible and as true as possible.

00:17:57:20 - 00:18:00:18
That's the second pillar, which is super important.

00:18:00:18 - 00:18:06:11
So making it easy is to just create a very concise message, not each other.

00:18:06:11 - 00:18:09:11
Write it because this is something we get very, very often

00:18:09:15 - 00:18:12:08
six paragraphs of,

00:18:12:08 - 00:18:16:15
description that's literally looked like every other applicants.

00:18:16:22 - 00:18:20:18
One interesting note, we even got a submission where

00:18:21:12 - 00:18:25:01
there was a sentence, here is my portfolio.

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:28:01
And then after that there was like

00:18:28:05 - 00:18:31:09
an alias and said, here, paste your portfolio link.

00:18:31:17 - 00:18:37:14
So it was super obvious that this was directly copied and not even checked.

00:18:38:10 - 00:18:42:18
And so to make it simple, just create honest message.

00:18:42:18 - 00:18:45:03
Hey guys, very cool company.

00:18:45:03 - 00:18:47:01
I really like this and this about you.

00:18:47:01 - 00:18:48:17
I think I'm a good match.

00:18:48:17 - 00:18:50:17
I check all the boxes. Here's my portfolio.

00:18:50:17 - 00:18:51:12
That's it.

00:18:51:12 - 00:18:54:12
We don't need to see anything else.

00:18:54:13 - 00:18:56:16
And when it comes to a portfolio,

00:18:56:16 - 00:19:00:12
that's why I'm saying custom ones are very, very appropriate.

00:19:00:15 - 00:19:01:20
And the reason behind that,

00:19:01:20 - 00:19:04:20
that's the first place where we can check your skillset.

00:19:05:07 - 00:19:10:10
And by using templates that are very, very, advanced,

00:19:11:11 - 00:19:14:04
it's not like you're going to get a job because of that,

00:19:14:04 - 00:19:17:06
because at the end there is a design task that you need to perform,

00:19:17:06 - 00:19:21:02
and we can clearly see that you have not you haven't designed this portfolio.

00:19:21:18 - 00:19:24:22
I would rather see a worse portfolio, but I see

00:19:24:22 - 00:19:29:02
that it's actually designed by a person because then I see, okay,

00:19:29:09 - 00:19:34:02
they have potential they lack in certain areas, but this has a potential.

00:19:34:02 - 00:19:38:14
I can send a design task and hopefully the results are also going to be innovative.

00:19:39:01 - 00:19:42:23
And this is something that I've switched my approach right now.

00:19:42:23 - 00:19:47:00
If I see a very, very decent portfolio, I double check it,

00:19:47:00 - 00:19:50:04
triple check it to see the case studies.

00:19:50:04 - 00:19:54:05
If they're matching that the equality, then I check if it's a,

00:19:55:12 - 00:19:56:08
template or not.

00:19:56:08 - 00:19:59:07
If it's not a template, I cannot find a template.

00:19:59:07 - 00:20:02:20
Then I'm a bit more confident about sending a task.

00:20:03:08 - 00:20:07:19
And if you even make those checkboxes even like copied some designs from dribble,

00:20:08:23 - 00:20:12:16
you're just essentially creating a notch, and you're also wasting your time

00:20:12:16 - 00:20:14:12
because you're going to get to the design task,

00:20:14:12 - 00:20:16:11
you're going to become very excited.

00:20:16:11 - 00:20:21:02
But then because you've copied all of your things through your portfolio,

00:20:21:07 - 00:20:26:06
through case studies and it's not really you, you're just gonna do a design task.

00:20:26:06 - 00:20:29:16
And then we will quickly realize that your skill set is not decent enough

00:20:30:07 - 00:20:31:23
or you're not matching it.

00:20:31:23 - 00:20:33:12
And that's a big problem.

00:20:33:12 - 00:20:36:12
The to to finish it off about the portfolios,

00:20:36:13 - 00:20:40:15
I see that many, many influencers on LinkedIn saying that you actually

00:20:40:18 - 00:20:44:14
can use templates and use PDFs and use notion boards,

00:20:45:00 - 00:20:49:19
and that's completely true if you have ten years of experience,

00:20:50:22 - 00:20:53:22
have five successful,

00:20:53:23 - 00:20:57:09
products that became like unicorns, then like, yeah,

00:20:57:10 - 00:20:58:21
no one cares about the portfolio.

00:20:58:21 - 00:21:01:21
You can just even send a text and say, hey,

00:21:02:06 - 00:21:04:06
do you I don't remember

00:21:04:06 - 00:21:07:09
click up on the lead designer from them,

00:21:07:09 - 00:21:10:21
and then they don't even care about the work that you've done there.

00:21:10:21 - 00:21:14:05
Okay, I see on LinkedIn you worked three years for Clickup

00:21:14:05 - 00:21:17:21
as a lead designer or like a Dynamo CPO.

00:21:18:09 - 00:21:22:20
Then it makes sense, then notion or CV is completely not fine.

00:21:23:03 - 00:21:26:13
But when you are a junior and you don't have any

00:21:26:21 - 00:21:31:03
like business achievements, then you need to wow us in a different way.

00:21:31:09 - 00:21:34:08
What we can add to

00:21:34:08 - 00:21:37:08
the portfolio is that to two things.

00:21:37:15 - 00:21:40:00
When you are using AI, I'm not

00:21:41:10 - 00:21:44:10
in the camp that says don't use AI,

00:21:45:12 - 00:21:50:02
I'm using AI for my own posts right?

00:21:51:14 - 00:21:54:05
But I don't use it to code.

00:21:54:05 - 00:21:55:23
I don't copy and paste.

00:21:55:23 - 00:21:58:11
I use it to get inspired.

00:21:58:11 - 00:22:01:11
I typically generate multi

00:22:01:12 - 00:22:03:18
multiple, versions.

00:22:03:18 - 00:22:05:10
I never take one version.

00:22:05:10 - 00:22:07:06
I'd say like give me ten versions.

00:22:07:06 - 00:22:08:18
I go read it through.

00:22:08:18 - 00:22:11:16
I see this slide reveals interesting.

00:22:11:16 - 00:22:13:09
I may use it for the whole.

00:22:13:09 - 00:22:18:07
I may use this for the for the I change it I edited right

00:22:18:18 - 00:22:21:18
so it's actually

00:22:22:01 - 00:22:25:01
it takes me between

00:22:25:14 - 00:22:27:13
30 to 1 hour, 30 minutes

00:22:27:13 - 00:22:30:13
to 1 hour and have to create one meeting post.

00:22:30:18 - 00:22:34:14
So I usually write when I want to publish on Wednesday.

00:22:34:14 - 00:22:36:12
I start on Monday evening,

00:22:36:12 - 00:22:39:23
right to draft it, look at it on Tuesday, change it, edit it.

00:22:40:08 - 00:22:42:12
So that's the way I use AI.

00:22:42:12 - 00:22:45:12
If you use AI this way, do it.

00:22:45:15 - 00:22:49:19
And don't listen to other folks that say don't use AI.

00:22:50:08 - 00:22:52:22
But if you just largely copy

00:22:52:22 - 00:22:56:22
and paste and put it in there, that's a problem and we see it

00:22:57:13 - 00:23:00:12
because we are on the other side,

00:23:00:12 - 00:23:05:11
I have to look into 200, 300 applicants.

00:23:06:01 - 00:23:11:08
When you go through 200, 300 applications, then the AI stuff's

00:23:11:08 - 00:23:16:12
really come in your face, especially if it's copied bluntly.

00:23:17:10 - 00:23:21:07
Don't do it if you're doing that bluntly, but you need to bring finesse.

00:23:21:19 - 00:23:25:05
You need to basically use it in a way

00:23:25:05 - 00:23:28:09
that that can really amplify your message,

00:23:28:20 - 00:23:31:12
not gentrify.

00:23:31:12 - 00:23:33:13
I don't know if there is a word like this, but,

00:23:37:01 - 00:23:40:03
Be careful with the is a very powerful tool.

00:23:40:12 - 00:23:43:12
It could put you on the spotlight, but it could

00:23:44:14 - 00:23:49:04
it it could make you fall off the cliff to as a first thing.

00:23:49:20 - 00:23:52:20
Second thing is that,

00:23:53:18 - 00:23:55:18
I checked a couple of application.

00:23:55:18 - 00:23:58:18
It was actually feel like it makes.

00:23:59:07 - 00:24:00:19
I had to read.

00:24:00:19 - 00:24:03:10
I could click on a PDF and there was a link.

00:24:03:10 - 00:24:06:10
I click on the link, I went to the portfolio website

00:24:07:00 - 00:24:10:16
and there was like, there is no portfolio, send put your email

00:24:11:08 - 00:24:14:08
and then we send you upon request.

00:24:15:11 - 00:24:19:01
I think there is a portion of designers

00:24:19:01 - 00:24:22:17
that are afraid of getting exposure,

00:24:23:22 - 00:24:26:22
design and design in

00:24:27:07 - 00:24:29:20
being a designer and designing

00:24:29:20 - 00:24:32:20
for anything means that you need to.

00:24:32:23 - 00:24:37:03
It's a very vulnerable profession because you have to expose yourself.

00:24:37:12 - 00:24:40:14
You have to put you on this spotlight to be critiqued,

00:24:41:14 - 00:24:42:15
right?

00:24:42:15 - 00:24:46:00
If you're not at that level to expose your work,

00:24:46:04 - 00:24:49:04
your work needs to be available for for public.

00:24:50:04 - 00:24:53:05
If you're not at that level of confidence,

00:24:54:22 - 00:24:57:20
then you are going to have a problem.

00:24:57:20 - 00:24:59:13
Because

00:24:59:13 - 00:25:04:13
in our day to day, if you want to ask any of our design to,

00:25:04:19 - 00:25:08:01
one of our core jobs is to just go talk to client

00:25:08:01 - 00:25:11:01
face to face in court.

00:25:11:06 - 00:25:15:00
If we want to have to always worry about every call.

00:25:15:00 - 00:25:18:01
First of all, you're going to be paralyzed

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:21:07
every day because.

00:25:22:16 - 00:25:23:14
On average,

00:25:23:14 - 00:25:26:14
any of our designers would have to go to a call

00:25:26:19 - 00:25:30:13
at least once a day or once in two days

00:25:32:00 - 00:25:34:19
for like, not like ten minutes for like one at some

00:25:34:19 - 00:25:38:13
some of these conversations, too long formats that are going to record

00:25:38:14 - 00:25:41:08
a long format podcasting with the client.

00:25:41:08 - 00:25:43:01
Two hour is one hour and a half.

00:25:44:00 - 00:25:47:00
You need to be comfortable to

00:25:47:01 - 00:25:51:02
be in a conversation with external stakeholders

00:25:51:02 - 00:25:54:16
for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, one hour, one hour and a half.

00:25:56:22 - 00:26:00:09
If you're not comfortable, if you're not comfortable

00:26:00:09 - 00:26:04:10
sharing your portfolio to public, how can you have this conversation?

00:26:05:14 - 00:26:08:02
That's my worry.

00:26:08:02 - 00:26:09:12
It's a big thing.

00:26:09:12 - 00:26:11:10
You need to think about it.

00:26:11:10 - 00:26:14:10
If you're if you're not confident about

00:26:15:09 - 00:26:17:14
it doesn't mean you need to be extroverted.

00:26:17:14 - 00:26:19:00
We have some.

00:26:19:00 - 00:26:21:10
I'm sort of like I'm in the spectrum.

00:26:21:10 - 00:26:23:08
Part of me is very introverted.

00:26:23:08 - 00:26:25:18
I need my time.

00:26:25:18 - 00:26:28:18
But that doesn't mean that

00:26:28:22 - 00:26:31:22
you need to be able to go to call this business.

00:26:31:23 - 00:26:34:09
You need to you need to take your time

00:26:34:09 - 00:26:37:09
to express your ideas, to take critique

00:26:38:11 - 00:26:40:07
some clients going to bash

00:26:40:07 - 00:26:43:10
your designs right in your face.

00:26:43:10 - 00:26:46:17
You need to be able to take and will not take it personally.

00:26:47:15 - 00:26:50:00
So it's it's a big topic.

00:26:50:00 - 00:26:51:20
You need to some call it.

00:26:55:02 - 00:26:58:02
Imposter syndrome.

00:26:58:23 - 00:26:59:21
It's a fancy way

00:26:59:21 - 00:27:02:23
of making the big thing, but it's not a big thing really.

00:27:03:10 - 00:27:06:10
It just being able to put

00:27:06:21 - 00:27:09:00
put your name behind your work,

00:27:09:00 - 00:27:12:00
exposing it and talking about it.

00:27:16:14 - 00:27:17:08
I don't know

00:27:17:08 - 00:27:23:05
if many designers realize that, but like half of our job is sale

00:27:23:05 - 00:27:28:14
and selling our design decisions, if you cannot properly describe

00:27:28:14 - 00:27:32:18
why you've done certain options and why are you why you,

00:27:34:05 - 00:27:36:02
made those decisions. Clients.

00:27:36:02 - 00:27:37:04
And I'm gonna like it.

00:27:37:04 - 00:27:39:12
And there will be disappointed.

00:27:39:12 - 00:27:41:23
So very. It's super.

00:27:41:23 - 00:27:44:03
I don't know if it's

00:27:44:03 - 00:27:47:13
this way in every design studio, but in our end,

00:27:48:01 - 00:27:52:07
our product designers, also our product managers of the projects

00:27:53:03 - 00:27:56:18
everyone needs to be involved with directly working with the clients.

00:27:56:18 - 00:27:57:17
So if you cannot

00:27:59:00 - 00:28:02:00
not necessarily sell, but more or less,

00:28:03:08 - 00:28:06:05
properly explain yourself

00:28:06:05 - 00:28:10:03
and explain your work, you're going to fail.

00:28:10:03 - 00:28:12:01
And the same thing applies with your portfolio.

00:28:12:01 - 00:28:14:08
That's the first place where you can test this.

00:28:14:08 - 00:28:15:21
This is the beauty of portfolio.

00:28:15:21 - 00:28:17:17
You are in fully control of it.

00:28:17:17 - 00:28:20:03
I this is also something I do not understand.

00:28:20:03 - 00:28:22:12
This was one of the most exciting parts of my.

00:28:22:12 - 00:28:26:02
And when I created my portfolio, because it was very challenging

00:28:26:02 - 00:28:30:01
and coming up with ideas, it was and I've also learned a lot.

00:28:30:01 - 00:28:30:15
So this is

00:28:30:15 - 00:28:34:09
like your first proper business project when you're creating your portfolio.

00:28:34:09 - 00:28:36:12
So you shouldn't skip on that.

00:28:36:12 - 00:28:40:01
So if you will have your first clients, you're going to propose them a template

00:28:40:01 - 00:28:40:14
and call it that.

00:28:40:14 - 00:28:44:23
They know you're going to spend time and actually try to address those problems

00:28:45:09 - 00:28:50:18
so that we begins us towards, a design task and a couple of points.

00:28:50:18 - 00:28:52:13
We need to promote it from there up.

00:28:52:13 - 00:28:57:04
But to just finish it off on the messages and the application messages,

00:28:59:14 - 00:29:01:19
after 200 portfolios,

00:29:01:19 - 00:29:05:16
I learned everyone just wants to join us because we are super creative

00:29:06:00 - 00:29:09:13
and they are 100% aligned with our values,

00:29:09:13 - 00:29:13:11
but no mentioned which values were mentioned.

00:29:13:11 - 00:29:15:05
Why we are creative.

00:29:15:05 - 00:29:19:16
So this is like a clear indicator that you go to ChatGPT

00:29:19:18 - 00:29:23:18
and ask why I should be working for a design agency in Berlin,

00:29:24:04 - 00:29:26:18
and probably ChatGPT going to go.

00:29:26:18 - 00:29:30:23
Yeah, because you're 100% with their values and you were super creative.

00:29:31:17 - 00:29:36:12
So that was a big, think and big learning and a bit of a funny thing.

00:29:36:12 - 00:29:39:12
When you read through everything.

00:29:42:15 - 00:29:46:04
I have to add another point to case studies,

00:29:46:04 - 00:29:50:01
which I think is becoming out of control.

00:29:50:12 - 00:29:52:17
What I will say

00:29:52:17 - 00:29:55:09
between seven 6

00:29:55:09 - 00:30:01:06
to 8 629 cases, study, 6 to 9 out of ten

00:30:01:21 - 00:30:06:03
cases, study from a portfolio that I see, it's the same process

00:30:08:02 - 00:30:11:02
double diamond or research.

00:30:11:20 - 00:30:16:17
For me, when I look at the cases study and they follow these,

00:30:16:22 - 00:30:21:03
it tells me that they do not have a process.

00:30:21:18 - 00:30:23:20
No process is linear.

00:30:23:20 - 00:30:26:16
Each process is messy. Right now.

00:30:26:16 - 00:30:31:02
We we started working with with a client

00:30:31:02 - 00:30:34:02
and a very complex innovation project.

00:30:34:21 - 00:30:37:05
We offered in a linear process.

00:30:37:05 - 00:30:41:13
We have to to simplify, we allocate the two weeks for research.

00:30:42:18 - 00:30:45:09
We are four weeks in and we realize

00:30:45:09 - 00:30:48:16
we need another two weeks to complete the research.

00:30:51:13 - 00:30:54:15
So if I want to create a case study out of this project,

00:30:54:15 - 00:30:58:20
I'm going to mention this because that's the real reality

00:30:58:20 - 00:31:01:20
of a design project.

00:31:08:22 - 00:31:11:22
Most of the designers that they're after bootcamps,

00:31:12:06 - 00:31:16:02
I think it looks like everyone is stuck

00:31:16:02 - 00:31:21:14
with the with the assumption that you need to just check boxes

00:31:21:14 - 00:31:26:08
on the process and the outcome will automatically appear.

00:31:26:15 - 00:31:31:06
And this is how it looks, and this is how it feels when we look at the design,

00:31:31:09 - 00:31:35:21
most of the design tasks that we've got, there are some still in progress.

00:31:35:21 - 00:31:40:12
So hopefully we can have something that excites us. But

00:31:42:03 - 00:31:44:03
this this was a big of a deal

00:31:44:03 - 00:31:49:03
because when I looked at the processes that the designers were establishing,

00:31:50:00 - 00:31:52:06
most of them were like,

00:31:52:06 - 00:31:55:12
hey, I've done a survey, I've done the user persona,

00:31:55:18 - 00:31:59:16
I've done user stories, I have done User Journey, and I arrive at the solution.

00:32:00:05 - 00:32:01:04
First and foremost.

00:32:01:04 - 00:32:04:11
If your solution is not innovative, then the whole process,

00:32:04:22 - 00:32:06:20
there's something wrong in there.

00:32:06:20 - 00:32:10:14
If the solution is just something that I come up with before

00:32:10:14 - 00:32:15:08
I even started this, and it feels like people coming in

00:32:15:08 - 00:32:18:10
and they okay, I need to do user persona, but why

00:32:20:03 - 00:32:20:16
design?

00:32:20:16 - 00:32:24:14
God told me to and I'm just just doing user persona and then.

00:32:24:14 - 00:32:26:13
Okay, what else?

00:32:26:13 - 00:32:28:22
User journey. Okay, let's do it.

00:32:28:22 - 00:32:29:13
User journey.

00:32:29:13 - 00:32:34:12
And then it feels like it's completely disconnected from the initial outcome.

00:32:34:12 - 00:32:39:10
It feels like every step is made because you have some sort of a checklist,

00:32:39:19 - 00:32:44:11
but it's you could just take it out and nothing would change.

00:32:44:11 - 00:32:47:10
It feels like at the beginning you had a certain idea

00:32:48:10 - 00:32:49:04
and then you do

00:32:49:04 - 00:32:52:10
checkboxes, and then the idea stayed the same.

00:32:53:08 - 00:32:55:16
And this is super big problem.

00:32:55:16 - 00:32:58:18
There were couple of the there were a couple of design,

00:32:59:19 - 00:33:02:08
that we've got that weren't perfect when it comes

00:33:02:08 - 00:33:05:08
to a design, UI design and innovativeness.

00:33:05:13 - 00:33:08:13
But I really like that the process

00:33:08:13 - 00:33:09:10
wasn't like this.

00:33:09:10 - 00:33:13:09
And that immediately told me, okay, this people had experience.

00:33:13:09 - 00:33:14:21
They are real designers,

00:33:14:21 - 00:33:18:10
but we just didn't match in terms of the like, yeah, we just

00:33:19:12 - 00:33:21:11
we're not matching each other.

00:33:21:11 - 00:33:24:11
But there the process was so simple.

00:33:24:11 - 00:33:26:12
They were just listed out the task

00:33:26:12 - 00:33:30:19
they okay, I've done some brainstorming, checked ideas for the I.

00:33:30:19 - 00:33:33:04
I've seen that this is pretty shitty,

00:33:33:04 - 00:33:36:23
so I'm just gonna scrap it and try to come up with something by myself.

00:33:36:23 - 00:33:38:21
Don't look at some competitors.

00:33:38:21 - 00:33:41:09
And here's my idea. And I'm like, okay, fantastic.

00:33:41:09 - 00:33:43:10
This is actually real process.

00:33:43:10 - 00:33:45:19
Show the messiness of your work,

00:33:47:05 - 00:33:47:23
because the

00:33:47:23 - 00:33:50:23
messiness of the work makes the design.

00:33:51:20 - 00:33:54:22
We need to see that you can. You.

00:33:58:07 - 00:34:02:14
You can go from a messy room to a clean room.

00:34:04:04 - 00:34:05:20
It just is

00:34:05:20 - 00:34:09:18
we not we not trying to we're not trying to cut corners.

00:34:09:18 - 00:34:12:18
We want to see that, okay? We

00:34:14:11 - 00:34:17:00
if our design process, you know, the whole team

00:34:17:00 - 00:34:20:00
that we've been working together for years,

00:34:20:06 - 00:34:22:01
we have done delivered.

00:34:22:01 - 00:34:25:01
Every person in our team has worked with another person

00:34:25:23 - 00:34:27:04
a certain extent.

00:34:27:04 - 00:34:30:04
Some some of us work on multiple projects.

00:34:30:11 - 00:34:33:11
But again, when we go to a new project, it's messiness.

00:34:34:04 - 00:34:35:08
It's unavoidable.

00:34:35:08 - 00:34:37:12
It's part of your job.

00:34:37:12 - 00:34:40:19
You got to show us that you all went from

00:34:40:19 - 00:34:46:09
you took on a messiness, a mess over in the midst of environment.

00:34:47:16 - 00:34:48:16
Not like,

00:34:48:16 - 00:34:52:14
not that every project is messy, but there's some some messiness in it.

00:34:53:08 - 00:34:56:00
We need to see that.

00:34:56:00 - 00:34:58:17
Otherwise, that's

00:34:58:17 - 00:35:00:08
not believable.

00:35:00:08 - 00:35:02:14
Just ease. Sorry.

00:35:02:14 - 00:35:04:06
Our eyes are trained.

00:35:04:06 - 00:35:08:02
We leave this work on every day you work, you wake up.

00:35:08:02 - 00:35:11:18
We have to do this from from the beginning of the date.

00:35:11:18 - 00:35:13:08
Data end.

00:35:13:08 - 00:35:16:08
We need to. It's

00:35:16:09 - 00:35:18:15
it's it the movie.

00:35:18:15 - 00:35:19:09
It's you.

00:35:19:09 - 00:35:22:03
Your application is a movie is a story that you're taking.

00:35:22:03 - 00:35:24:02
It needs to be believable.

00:35:24:02 - 00:35:27:14
And the only way to make your story believable

00:35:27:14 - 00:35:30:14
is to stick to the reality of what you've done.

00:35:31:06 - 00:35:36:08
I've consulted of mentored other designers.

00:35:37:00 - 00:35:38:18
They're like,

00:35:38:18 - 00:35:42:00
okay, I've done this project three years ago.

00:35:42:00 - 00:35:44:16
I've done bits and pieces.

00:35:44:16 - 00:35:46:09
Now I have to elaborate.

00:35:46:09 - 00:35:48:00
I don't have a process.

00:35:48:00 - 00:35:48:21
I have to come up.

00:35:48:21 - 00:35:51:21
I made up some stuff, don't make up things.

00:35:52:17 - 00:35:54:14
Just stick to what you have done.

00:35:55:23 - 00:36:00:03
It's you earn our respect by being you

00:36:00:19 - 00:36:03:19
and being honest to what you've done.

00:36:05:06 - 00:36:05:22
You earn your.

00:36:05:22 - 00:36:08:22
You might earn yourself a shot.

00:36:13:01 - 00:36:14:17
Yeah, let me spoil it a bit.

00:36:14:17 - 00:36:20:19
The five hour time limit is very important in this case

00:36:21:11 - 00:36:25:08
because we want to simulate a real work, real life.

00:36:25:21 - 00:36:27:03
Very often.

00:36:27:03 - 00:36:30:02
We've got a task from our clients

00:36:30:02 - 00:36:34:22
where we needed to meet a deadline and even a day.

00:36:35:06 - 00:36:36:13
We even have a project.

00:36:36:13 - 00:36:42:03
We had literally need to spend a day on to improving certain things very fast

00:36:42:11 - 00:36:48:04
and providing some concepts and ideas for client to work upon.

00:36:48:05 - 00:36:51:05
This landed us a three month project.

00:36:52:08 - 00:36:57:19
We. I know you were going to all be surprised, but I didn't touch

00:36:58:19 - 00:37:00:00
user personas.

00:37:00:00 - 00:37:03:13
I didn't do any user interviews, and the reason behind

00:37:03:13 - 00:37:06:15
that is you need to work with what you have.

00:37:07:02 - 00:37:09:16
You have five hours and within the task

00:37:09:16 - 00:37:12:16
it clearly stated that we are looking for innovativeness.

00:37:12:20 - 00:37:16:12
Design design process is secondary, presentation is

00:37:17:14 - 00:37:19:12
not super important.

00:37:19:12 - 00:37:22:07
If so, you need to manage your time.

00:37:22:07 - 00:37:25:04
If you see innovativeness, okay, that means

00:37:25:04 - 00:37:26:11
that I need to create a concept.

00:37:26:11 - 00:37:27:22
I don't need to validate it.

00:37:27:22 - 00:37:29:13
I have only five hours.

00:37:29:13 - 00:37:33:20
So you need to learn to work with constraints within those constraints.

00:37:33:20 - 00:37:35:05
It's pretty obvious

00:37:35:05 - 00:37:38:14
or maybe not pretty obvious, but this is what we wanted to simulate

00:37:39:00 - 00:37:41:20
that okay, that actually in this

00:37:41:20 - 00:37:44:13
example research is not super important.

00:37:44:13 - 00:37:48:21
In this, you need to spend four hours on brainstorming,

00:37:49:01 - 00:37:53:15
conceptualizing, looking at, mood boards, inspirations,

00:37:53:15 - 00:37:56:17
and then coming up with something that's maybe not achievable.

00:37:57:00 - 00:37:59:18
Maybe it's going to take two years to build, but

00:37:59:18 - 00:38:03:10
something that excites us and the case study of it.

00:38:03:15 - 00:38:07:06
If you're going to spend one hour on innovativeness

00:38:07:18 - 00:38:11:05
and then three hours on creating a very cool presentation,

00:38:11:05 - 00:38:14:21
no one cares because we've clearly established

00:38:14:21 - 00:38:17:21
that we care about innovativeness and your design skills.

00:38:18:03 - 00:38:21:03
So this is very, very important.

00:38:21:14 - 00:38:22:13
Very important.

00:38:30:10 - 00:38:31:22
What is the a case that

00:38:31:22 - 00:38:34:08
the UX designers that are applying to this job,

00:38:34:08 - 00:38:36:20
they need to be a little bit more obsessed,

00:38:36:20 - 00:38:39:14
like the quote that Behrad has shared with us.

00:38:39:14 - 00:38:41:11
The greatest people aren't disciplined.

00:38:41:11 - 00:38:43:00
They are obsessed.

00:38:43:00 - 00:38:46:07
What do you think that this is a matter of being like, okay, I'm

00:38:46:07 - 00:38:50:19
going to show all the details that I got into making this design

00:38:50:19 - 00:38:53:17
because I really care about it and you need to see everything.

00:38:53:17 - 00:38:54:18
Is that the case?

00:38:54:18 - 00:38:58:06
You really need to see people that are obsessed with the craft of this.

00:38:58:12 - 00:39:03:07
I hope you those who wants to join bananas are nerdy enough to find this podcast,

00:39:03:13 - 00:39:08:03
and this will really give you a blueprint of how you can get to the other side.

00:39:08:03 - 00:39:10:04
If you haven't got one, I will say.

00:39:10:04 - 00:39:12:22
I mean, I'll leave your opinion to him. So

00:39:13:22 - 00:39:16:22
if you haven't done any project, if it's you

00:39:17:12 - 00:39:20:01
first time you're applying,

00:39:20:01 - 00:39:23:06
so you have no you haven't done any client project.

00:39:23:21 - 00:39:26:11
But if you show me

00:39:26:11 - 00:39:28:18
that,

00:39:28:18 - 00:39:31:18
then you are not.

00:39:33:00 - 00:39:36:23
Except the time that you took to write this email to us,

00:39:37:09 - 00:39:40:19
you constantly working on your craft, you're creating stuff

00:39:41:16 - 00:39:44:16
and you can showcase it minimally

00:39:45:08 - 00:39:48:08
in portfolio of some sort,

00:39:48:09 - 00:39:51:01
right?

00:39:51:01 - 00:39:54:01
I'll consider you

00:39:54:01 - 00:39:56:12
if I see that you're obsessed.

00:39:56:12 - 00:40:00:21
If I see that this is your this.

00:40:00:21 - 00:40:05:01
You made the decision out of art because as a creative, you can dip.

00:40:05:11 - 00:40:07:06
When I was

00:40:07:06 - 00:40:09:23
I find that,

00:40:09:23 - 00:40:12:23
you know, I think so.

00:40:14:15 - 00:40:18:10
In I didn't fully commit to

00:40:18:12 - 00:40:21:12
to the craft of UX design.

00:40:23:19 - 00:40:28:06
Before this six, seven years in my career,

00:40:29:20 - 00:40:32:20
for the first 6 or 7 years, I was

00:40:33:00 - 00:40:36:00
deejaying, writing,

00:40:36:13 - 00:40:39:16
taking photography, doing multiple different things.

00:40:40:21 - 00:40:43:05
Then I realized that, okay,

00:40:43:05 - 00:40:45:11
I spent the whole weekend

00:40:45:11 - 00:40:48:11
putting together, mixing.

00:40:48:12 - 00:40:51:12
I could have used this to improve my design craft.

00:40:53:03 - 00:40:54:11
Then at some point

00:40:54:11 - 00:40:59:00
I said no to all the side activities.

00:41:00:18 - 00:41:02:06
I said, I'm going to be

00:41:02:06 - 00:41:05:06
just focusing on this

00:41:05:06 - 00:41:08:21
and the very, very same time.

00:41:08:22 - 00:41:11:22
Then realized that I need to commit to this.

00:41:13:06 - 00:41:15:05
From that point onwards,

00:41:15:05 - 00:41:19:22
I see that my skillset my delivery has is improving.

00:41:23:02 - 00:41:25:13
Exponentially.

00:41:25:13 - 00:41:28:01
I need to see that commitment.

00:41:28:01 - 00:41:29:16
It's a very good point.

00:41:29:16 - 00:41:32:16
I have a bit of a different opinion to this.

00:41:35:01 - 00:41:38:01
Obsession is very, very important,

00:41:38:02 - 00:41:42:20
but this will also stress test if you're actually want to become a designer.

00:41:43:19 - 00:41:45:08
In my case, it wasn't like

00:41:45:08 - 00:41:48:14
I've dropped everything that I do and focus on design.

00:41:49:04 - 00:41:52:10
I think up to your extent it wasn't like that as well.

00:41:53:06 - 00:41:56:18
It means from like a business standpoint, you were focused on UX design

00:41:56:18 - 00:41:59:22
because it doesn't mean that you cannot have any other hobbies.

00:42:01:23 - 00:42:03:20
But on my point,

00:42:03:20 - 00:42:07:04
it was when I, I was a graphic design intern

00:42:08:06 - 00:42:10:14
and I was studying system engineering,

00:42:10:14 - 00:42:13:05
and I learned about the UX design.

00:42:13:05 - 00:42:16:05
And when I learned that for a month,

00:42:16:09 - 00:42:19:09
I didn't learn anything else than this.

00:42:19:11 - 00:42:22:01
And after a month, I wasn't tired.

00:42:22:01 - 00:42:26:16
I was hungry of getting into a projects and learning for.

00:42:26:21 - 00:42:28:15
Then I realized, that's it.

00:42:28:15 - 00:42:32:18
And if you and this is very, very simple task, just commit for a month

00:42:33:00 - 00:42:37:06
and focus on it on a daily, daily, couple of hours.

00:42:37:22 - 00:42:40:23
And then if you realize that you're tired, you don't like it.

00:42:40:23 - 00:42:44:05
That means you just simply need to look somewhere else.

00:42:44:15 - 00:42:49:18
It's nothing that it's just it just simply is what it is.

00:42:49:18 - 00:42:52:05
You just don't want to be a designer.

00:42:52:05 - 00:42:57:12
And if you want to take shortcuts, it's even worse because you might be lucky.

00:42:57:12 - 00:43:01:08
You might create a random portfolio from template.

00:43:01:14 - 00:43:04:13
You might get a job, and you might be working

00:43:04:13 - 00:43:08:01
in the big corporate when they are not checking your skills constantly.

00:43:08:01 - 00:43:11:18
And you're doing like very simple, basic stuff for 4 to 5 years.

00:43:12:02 - 00:43:14:06
And afterwards you might realize that

00:43:15:18 - 00:43:16:13
after five

00:43:16:13 - 00:43:20:05
years, because you instead of condensing the, the, the,

00:43:20:07 - 00:43:24:01
the work in a month, it just spread out for a long time.

00:43:24:01 - 00:43:27:01
You might realize that this is something that I don't like,

00:43:27:02 - 00:43:30:20
and this is a place where I wish you not to be a

00:43:31:12 - 00:43:34:22
after spending your time committing, having experience,

00:43:34:22 - 00:43:38:10
and then you realize, but this is actually this is not this is not exciting for me.

00:43:38:19 - 00:43:41:19
This is very bad environment to be in.

00:43:41:21 - 00:43:44:06
That's how the burn ups happen.

00:43:44:06 - 00:43:46:20
And believe me, do not go here for money.

00:43:46:20 - 00:43:51:08
But I put it very nicely in our, like, internal discussions.

00:43:51:21 - 00:43:54:21
Even if you can go to a corporate

00:43:55:04 - 00:43:58:04
and earn significantly more and

00:43:58:04 - 00:44:01:15
but you're not going to do things that excite you and you're happy with.

00:44:02:09 - 00:44:05:09
You're gonna need to spend this money either

00:44:05:12 - 00:44:10:01
when you gonna do a career break or on the there's therapists.

00:44:10:13 - 00:44:13:15
So at this point, I much rather work

00:44:14:03 - 00:44:17:18
even at the shopping center if I'm happy with it.

00:44:17:19 - 00:44:19:04
Earn less, but be happy.

00:44:20:23 - 00:44:22:12
So that's a reality.

00:44:22:12 - 00:44:24:16
And I think it's

00:44:24:16 - 00:44:29:17
I hopefully some of the candidates will listen to it or watch it,

00:44:30:02 - 00:44:33:21
just do a bullet points of the things that we've mentioned

00:44:33:21 - 00:44:35:06
and just follow it straight.

00:44:35:06 - 00:44:39:15
And then, I will guarantee you will have a conversation with me about really?

00:44:40:13 - 00:44:41:06
Yeah.

00:44:41:06 - 00:44:44:17
We see it also end up some of the applicants they come from.

00:44:44:17 - 00:44:46:11
They're hired by big names.

00:44:46:11 - 00:44:49:19
I don't want to name names, but we look at their portfolio.

00:44:49:19 - 00:44:52:19
What they have done in the past years, nothing.

00:44:54:03 - 00:44:55:10
Right.

00:44:55:10 - 00:44:58:10
And and that's that's a gap.

00:44:58:19 - 00:45:01:19
It's very important that

00:45:01:22 - 00:45:04:12
if you accept,

00:45:04:12 - 00:45:10:01
job offer from it, be a good name, a good brand.

00:45:10:11 - 00:45:12:19
But has it

00:45:12:19 - 00:45:14:18
as a popular name,

00:45:14:18 - 00:45:17:23
you actually check what you're going to do for them

00:45:18:22 - 00:45:20:07
if you end up

00:45:20:07 - 00:45:23:15
improving an account page for two years,

00:45:24:07 - 00:45:27:11
that's going to become a problem for your future. You.

00:45:28:17 - 00:45:31:17
Because then at some point you get tired of this.

00:45:32:03 - 00:45:35:06
I would get tired of improving account page in a month,

00:45:37:05 - 00:45:38:00
right?

00:45:38:00 - 00:45:40:17
But let's say you stay there for two years.

00:45:40:17 - 00:45:44:21
Then at some point you're like, oh my God, I wake up, I have to be doing this,

00:45:44:21 - 00:45:48:05
and I have to go to 60, 60, 70% of

00:45:48:18 - 00:45:51:13
my time goes to alignment calls.

00:45:51:13 - 00:45:54:07
And I have to be silent because I'm worried.

00:45:54:07 - 00:45:57:12
You can say about the account page, what do you want to do there?

00:45:58:09 - 00:46:00:15
Right? You improve it once it is done.

00:46:00:15 - 00:46:03:15
What kind of innovation do you want to bring to that concrete?

00:46:04:09 - 00:46:05:15
Right.

00:46:05:15 - 00:46:08:15
And then then at some point it goes on your nerve.

00:46:08:16 - 00:46:09:22
And I've seen it a lot.

00:46:09:22 - 00:46:12:10
That's why I can say it in very detail.

00:46:12:10 - 00:46:13:12
What's going to happen to you

00:46:14:17 - 00:46:16:12
then you're like, I'm done with this.

00:46:16:12 - 00:46:19:12
I want to change. I want to look for.

00:46:19:17 - 00:46:21:12
Then you go back to the job market.

00:46:21:12 - 00:46:22:17
You look at your portfolio.

00:46:22:17 - 00:46:25:17
What I can put into my portfolio, nothing.

00:46:25:22 - 00:46:29:03
But what are you going to do with nothing?

00:46:29:21 - 00:46:33:05
Your best work would go back to four years ago,

00:46:34:06 - 00:46:37:06
and it's not even related to your current company.

00:46:38:16 - 00:46:39:15
What's going to happen then?

00:46:39:15 - 00:46:42:01
You have to take courses.

00:46:42:01 - 00:46:44:18
You have to create it.

00:46:44:18 - 00:46:45:21
You, you.

00:46:45:21 - 00:46:50:18
Then at some point you realize that actually you have to quit because this

00:46:51:16 - 00:46:55:00
9 to 5 taking up your active brain.

00:46:55:12 - 00:46:58:07
And you need that to create more work.

00:46:58:07 - 00:47:03:21
So you gave up your time or salary

00:47:04:19 - 00:47:07:04
and you end up to a place that you have to.

00:47:07:04 - 00:47:11:03
Now it's going to become a matter of survival

00:47:11:03 - 00:47:15:20
because your psychological health is at danger, at risk.

00:47:17:08 - 00:47:19:06
Then you have to

00:47:19:06 - 00:47:22:14
spend all the money you earn, either

00:47:24:07 - 00:47:28:09
to be able to quit or to

00:47:30:00 - 00:47:32:00
therapy courses.

00:47:32:00 - 00:47:33:23
So it doesn't.

00:47:33:23 - 00:47:36:23
It's not a great long term strategy.

00:47:37:14 - 00:47:41:05
As designers, we have to always price

00:47:41:05 - 00:47:45:21
rise, work an exciting project over everything else

00:47:46:05 - 00:47:49:05
because that's essentially going to guarantee your future.

00:47:49:19 - 00:47:52:19
Any of our designers, if they leave,

00:47:53:08 - 00:47:56:16
they can get hired quickly, that quickly, but they can get hired.

00:47:56:16 - 00:47:59:19
They will be seen first because their portfolio

00:47:59:19 - 00:48:02:19
is crazy.

00:48:02:21 - 00:48:03:13
Right.

00:48:03:13 - 00:48:06:13
And they're going to excel

00:48:06:15 - 00:48:09:06
in their new career from day one,

00:48:09:06 - 00:48:12:10
because they have mastered the soft skill, the hard skills.

00:48:12:18 - 00:48:15:18
They can handle any conversation, any calls.

00:48:15:23 - 00:48:17:20
They can run, workshops.

00:48:17:20 - 00:48:20:08
These are the skills that you need to be developing

00:48:20:08 - 00:48:22:08
to become a well-rounded, proficient

00:48:24:00 - 00:48:24:08
right.

00:48:24:08 - 00:48:25:17
Very important.

00:48:25:17 - 00:48:29:08
Again, we don't care if you were hired

00:48:29:08 - 00:48:32:12
or you are working at Nike or the likes of Nike.

00:48:33:09 - 00:48:37:05
We need to see that you have a take.

00:48:37:06 - 00:48:40:06
You have a personality,

00:48:40:12 - 00:48:42:15
you have to very clear,

00:48:42:15 - 00:48:45:15
distinctive design style.

00:48:46:04 - 00:48:47:22
You show us your messiness.

00:48:47:22 - 00:48:50:20
So really this is the core of design

00:48:50:20 - 00:48:53:20
and it's not a high bar to be honest.

00:48:54:07 - 00:48:57:07
It's just common sense bar for

00:48:58:21 - 00:49:00:10
any designer.

00:49:00:10 - 00:49:03:02
And lastly, I have another point.

00:49:03:02 - 00:49:06:02
You are going to pass it on to you whether we can close it maybe.

00:49:06:05 - 00:49:09:02
Is that your willingness to

00:49:09:02 - 00:49:12:16
receive, receive a couple of emails that we don't want to do

00:49:12:16 - 00:49:15:16
your, task.

00:49:16:13 - 00:49:17:16
Again, it's five hours.

00:49:17:16 - 00:49:20:16
You asking you for five hours?

00:49:20:21 - 00:49:22:14
I'm very surprised by this.

00:49:22:14 - 00:49:25:19
You know, as a business that we do this for a living.

00:49:26:21 - 00:49:30:02
God knows how many trials we committed to,

00:49:30:18 - 00:49:34:00
how many proposals we send that we receive no.

00:49:35:08 - 00:49:38:01
Just recently from old client.

00:49:38:01 - 00:49:40:06
They ask you to send proposal.

00:49:40:06 - 00:49:42:10
Hey, you want to work with you?

00:49:42:10 - 00:49:45:23
You spend days put together that proposal they've done with another agency.

00:49:47:11 - 00:49:48:23
What should we do?

00:49:48:23 - 00:49:50:13
You're going to keep sending proposal.

00:49:50:13 - 00:49:51:12
That's that's.

00:49:51:12 - 00:49:54:12
That's mean. Taking risks.

00:49:54:15 - 00:49:55:17
Take risks.

00:49:55:17 - 00:49:57:06
Five hours.

00:49:57:06 - 00:49:59:09
We don't ask you 50 hours.

00:49:59:09 - 00:50:00:07
How can else?

00:50:00:07 - 00:50:01:22
We can test your work.

00:50:01:22 - 00:50:04:01
This case, your skill set.

00:50:04:01 - 00:50:04:12
Yeah.

00:50:04:12 - 00:50:07:11
I think this is very like we've spoke about.

00:50:07:11 - 00:50:10:11
This task is a good wrapping to wrap it up,

00:50:11:20 - 00:50:15:14
we wanted to make people aware

00:50:15:14 - 00:50:19:08
of not being exploited, but there is a fine

00:50:19:08 - 00:50:22:13
balance between being exploited and being dedicated.

00:50:25:04 - 00:50:26:14
If, like

00:50:26:14 - 00:50:29:16
again, common sense apply rule applies here.

00:50:30:07 - 00:50:33:07
If you're getting asked to do,

00:50:33:17 - 00:50:36:09
tasks that they like, you need to define

00:50:36:09 - 00:50:39:09
entire flow, improve,

00:50:39:15 - 00:50:43:02
real life project then it's it's fishy.

00:50:43:17 - 00:50:44:22
I wouldn't do this.

00:50:44:22 - 00:50:47:14
And often, many times

00:50:47:14 - 00:50:51:14
when I was previously applying to other companies, I've done some,

00:50:52:18 - 00:50:55:18
there were some design tasks that they've asked me

00:50:57:04 - 00:51:00:00
that were a bit shady.

00:51:00:00 - 00:51:03:14
What I mean by here, like, I've had this experience, they've asked me

00:51:03:14 - 00:51:08:11
to do 6 to 7 screens plus mobile version with case study presentation,

00:51:08:16 - 00:51:13:19
and I did some research and I was like, guys, it's for free.

00:51:14:00 - 00:51:18:00
And they responded saying, cool. But,

00:51:19:09 - 00:51:22:07
here's a list of,

00:51:22:07 - 00:51:26:03
just points why I'm not willing to take this task.

00:51:26:03 - 00:51:27:03
All good.

00:51:27:03 - 00:51:28:19
I just don't have capacity.

00:51:28:19 - 00:51:30:12
I'm not going to work for free.

00:51:30:12 - 00:51:34:13
I can, if I want to squeeze it in five hours, which I can commit.

00:51:34:19 - 00:51:38:12
I'm just not going to provide it, like high quality that you would expect.

00:51:39:19 - 00:51:42:13
Actually, I think

00:51:42:13 - 00:51:45:13
80% responded to me saying, okay, it's fine.

00:51:45:13 - 00:51:49:04
Just did two screens and I was like, oh, I can negotiate.

00:51:49:04 - 00:51:52:03
Even within the design challenge task.

00:51:52:03 - 00:51:53:11
So that was very interesting.

00:51:53:11 - 00:51:59:00
And that's why we've applied this experience to our task.

00:51:59:08 - 00:52:01:04
And I feel like

00:52:01:04 - 00:52:04:00
if you're not willing to do this

00:52:04:00 - 00:52:09:23
or asking that, you're happily involve yourselves within the company

00:52:09:23 - 00:52:13:07
for a five hours but paid, that means you're

00:52:13:16 - 00:52:16:13
demanding a job right away.

00:52:16:13 - 00:52:17:11
Like literally.

00:52:17:11 - 00:52:20:05
And it's never that easy.

00:52:20:05 - 00:52:22:14
I know it would be an amazing work.

00:52:22:14 - 00:52:26:20
We should we could be live in where you apply and instead of three commitment

00:52:26:20 - 00:52:30:05
you getting immediate option to earn money.

00:52:30:05 - 00:52:32:11
But this is that it's impossible.

00:52:32:11 - 00:52:35:16
And this is very, very common thing to do.

00:52:36:15 - 00:52:37:14
Common sense apply.

00:52:37:14 - 00:52:41:08
But if we are asking for up to five hours, this is something

00:52:41:12 - 00:52:46:03
we are expecting and there's no other way to test your skill set.

00:52:46:03 - 00:52:50:03
Before we hired a simply this someone comes up with a better way.

00:52:50:14 - 00:52:52:16
Please send it out to us.

00:52:52:16 - 00:52:54:11
We will happily review it.

00:52:56:02 - 00:52:58:04
And that's all for today's episode.

00:52:58:04 - 00:53:00:20
We all wish you good luck on your job applications.

00:53:00:20 - 00:53:03:10
And if there is anyone who found this podcast

00:53:03:10 - 00:53:06:05
while applying to Bonanza, congratulations!

00:53:06:05 - 00:53:08:05
You are on the right path.

00:53:08:05 - 00:53:10:21
See you next time! Bye bye.