#90 Paradox as Praxis: Johannes (Yogi) Jaeger & Marcus Neustetter on Art, Science and The ZoNE

Andrea, Yogi and Marcus are forming Paradoxis. This is one of the conversations towards that, a Third Space episode of Love & Philosoph.
Philosopher Andrea Hiott sits down with artist and facilitator Marcus Neustetter and biologist-philosopher Johannes "Yogi" Jaeger for a wide-ranging conversation about working in the space between art and science. The two have collaborated for about six years as part of The ZoNE, a transdisciplinary collective they run in Vienna alongside artist Bronwyn Lace and curator Başak Şenova.

Marcus and Yogi introduce each other, then talk through how their collaboration actually works: not illustration-for-hire, but a genuine co-production where a text and a drawing "wrap themselves around each other" into something neither could have made alone. From there the conversation moves through constraints and "staying alive," productive tension, performance and vulnerability, the trickster, space and context, institutions and gatekeeping, conflict and tolerance, and finally care and love.

The episode also introduces the paradox project (referred to in the audio as "Paradoxis"), a shared piece of writing on treating paradox as a practice and performance, and the idea of building offline "circles of trust," a concept Andrea draws from her earlier conversation with Parker Palmer.

Read PARADOXIS here.

Watch the ZoNE talks here.

Link to Zone talks Andrea mentions on the Zone channel with one of her favorite philosophers. And the one with Julian Gough on Egg and Rock.

Topics covered

• How Marcus and Yogi met and why they were both looking for a "third space" between art and science
• The Perspective Studio methodology and collective co-creation
• Constraints, co-construction and "staying alive" as an organizing principle drawn from evolutionary biology
• Productive tension vs. problem-solving; adaptation over optimization
• Finite games vs. infinite play, and "serious play"
• Performance, persona, authenticity and vulnerability
• The trickster figure and the danger of putting narcissists "in charge"
• Space, context and embodiment (including a 10-second listening exercise)
• Institutions, gatekeeping, decolonizing spaces, and the "plastic mushroom in the Pompidou"
• Conflict, tolerance, "overlapping consensus" and "coherence from difference"
• Care, love, and the shadow — seeing "the person behind the persona"

People, projects and references mentioned

• Love & Philosophy — Andrea Hiott's podcast and Substack
• The ZoNE — the art/science collective (Lace, Neustetter, Jaeger, Şenova); see also the Makers page and Actions/notation log
• The emerging book Beyond the Age of Machines / Expanding Possibilities — the manifesto and chapters referenced throughout, published chapter by chapter
• Perspective Studio — the workshop/facilitation methodology
• Andrea Hiott's Holding Paradox and her Embracing Paradox guide
• Andrea talking with Parker Palmer — "circles of trust"
• James Carse — Finite and Infinite Games
• Hanzi Freinacht — "serious/existential play"
• Tyson Yunkaporta — Sand Talk (the trickster)
• Ludwig Wittgenstein — "whereof we cannot speak…"
• Plato — the allegory of the cave
• Michael Schmidt-Salomon — the paradox of tolerance
• John Rawls — "overlapping consensus"
• Carl Sagan — the gas-giant "blobs" thought experiment
• Patricia Martin — Will the Future Like You?
• Declan Donnellan and Sophie Fiennes — on performance and theatre (episodes Andrea mentions are forthcoming)
• Anathi Konjwa and Micca Manganye — performers in Marcus's Johannesburg short-film anecdote
• Steven Hobbs — Marcus's longtime South African collaborator

Full intro and notes here.

Care is not the opposite of love. It is the very urge of life. 'Caring for what?' is the primary question. That we have a choice about what we care for and how is what makes us human, but it's quite the challenge and responsibility. Let's help one another handle it.

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