Fighting for Future Freedoms: Mat Staver on STAND

Embark on a profound exploration of faith, law, and the unwavering pursuit of liberty with this week's special guest, Mat Staver. Mat's ascent from a reserved youth to a Supreme Court orator exemplifies our collective role in safeguarding liberty's legacy for those who will inherit our nation. From his impactful transition from the pulpit to the forefront of constitutional advocacy, we delve into Mat's inspiring legal career and the many legal battles he has boldly fought in defense of our constitutional rights.

As our conversation with Mat Staver deepens, we navigate the extraordinary shifts in the legal landscape, shaped by landmark Supreme Court decisions. The dissolution of the Lemon Test and the consequential overturning of Roe v. Wade highlight the episode, serving as perfect examples for the resilience needed in long quests for justice. Mat reminds us that freedom is not in our DNA; the legal battles we fight today will determine the freedoms we enjoy tomorrow.

Mat shares personal stories of sacrifice and the courage required to face fierce opposition when taking a stand on polarizing issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights. Mat’s unwavering dedication to defending civil liberties provides a beacon of hope, drawing from tales of perseverance that span historical and scriptural epochs, urging us to remain unwavering in our convictions, and to continue the noble fight for our beliefs, regardless of the odds.

This episode is more than a chronicle of legal skirmishes; it's a heartfelt appeal to each listener to become a guardian of the freedoms our Constitution enshrines. Guided by Mat's insights—rooted in his faith and legal expertise—we're inspired to take informed action within our communities by embracing activism. Join us as we stand firm in defense of freedom, supported by the spirit of respect and love, even amidst contention.

You can learn more about Mat Staver’s work and support his ministry, Liberty Council, at lc.org.

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Transcript

Kelly Tshibaka: 0:10

Hello America, Hello Alaska. This is Stand, a show making courage contagious by inspiring Americans to boldly stand for freedom, truth and government by the people. I'm your host, Kelly Tshibaka, a former government watchdog and candidate for US Senate in Alaska. I'm joined by my amazing co-host and husband, Niki Tshibaka, who used to work for the Department of Justice. You can join our community of standouts and watch all of our episodes and subscribe by checking out our website, standshow. org. That's where all of our podcast platforms are and our social media channels, standshow. org.

Kelly Tshibaka: 0:46

Well, today we have an inspiring guest with us, Mat Staver. Niki and I had the pleasure of meeting Mat when we were in law school together and getting to watch his epic legal career. Since then, Mat's been on the front lines of Fighting for Americans, constitutional rights and civil liberties. He's actually argued three cases before the US Supreme Court and multiple cases before federal and state courts. He served as the dean of the university's law school over at Liberty University and written numerous books and articles. He's the host and producer of Faith and Freedom's podcast and radio show and also Freedom's Call radio program. So we're truly honored to have Mat on the show today to talk about all the work he's currently doing at Liberty Council and all the courageous clients that they represent. If you want to support the work that they're doing at Liberty Council and help Mat Staver out, you can go to LC. org. Mat, thank you so much for all that you're doing for Americans and welcome to stand.

Mat Staver: 1:43

Well, thank you, Kelly and Niki. It's just been great to watch you as well and seeing you when you both were in law school. It was a great privilege and honor to be able to meet you there and then see your careers and what you're doing, not only in Alaska but around the country, so it's an honor to be with you.

Kelly Tshibaka: 2:01

We're excited to see you again. None of us look any different Almost decades ago.

Niki Tshibaka: 2:08

Well, Mat, you've had a truly impressive career defending and protecting people's constitutional rights, often at great personal cost. But you didn't start off saying to yourself I want to be a civil liberties litigator. What inspired you to go from, you know, a comfortable, anonymous life where I mean you could have made a great deal of money and private practice to actually being on the front lines of defending free speech and religious liberty?

Mat Staver: 2:43

Well, it actually started even before law school. I was a pastor and it was 1983 and there were two people in Kentucky, a Roman Catholic and a Protestant. They wanted to reach out to pastors about abortion. It was a subject matter that I had no knowledge about. I knew a lot about the Bible, original languages, history and so forth Graduated number one in my seminary class, but I didn't know about the most important cultural issue in my backyard, and so it was a documentary called assignment life, and that documentary showed a first trimester abortion in process and it showed the assembly of the baby body parts.

Mat Staver: 3:23

And that was what hit me, that what we're talking about is not what I thought from the media, that this is a real human being. And of course, it talked about the United States Supreme Court. It was that process that led me into law school and then, after law school, I worked for a firm in Orlando, florida, could have gone on to an in fact did have my own firm after that, and you're right, you know there's careers that you choose, and I could have gone on and made a lot of money. But what good was that when I'm just making somebody money or making somebody less money? You know, just changing money from hand to hand, from one defendant or plaintiff to another. But what lasting legacy am I leaving? And so it was because of that I dedicated my life to advancing religious freedom, the sanctity of human life and God's design for marriage and family.

Niki Tshibaka: 4:14

That's, that's an amazing story, you know, I I think about how, when it comes to money in our possessions, we can't take them with us right? But we can leave, like you said, a legacy. And that's that's an amazing story of being willing to sacrifice to leave that legacy. And I'm thinking also about your clients, because they're part of the battle as well, and these are everyday Americans, right, who are standing up, often at great cost to themselves, for religious freedom, for freedom of speech, and some people might think, hey, they're, they're just trying to protect their own rights, but actually they're, they're fighting to protect all of our rights, and so they're looking to leave a legacy that's positive and impactful for all of us. I was wondering if you could tell us maybe a one or two stories about what standing for freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion has cost you and your clients.

Mat Staver: 5:19

Well, as it relates to us personally, my wife and I and those that are in this work, it cost a lot. You know, nobody likes to be thought badly or had bad things or lies told about them, and that's the nature. When you're dealing with abortion or the LGBTQ agenda those two it is a very vicious culture clash that takes place and there are people that, though we love them, on the other side of these issues. They literally not just want to destroy your reputation. Frankly, they want to kill you. There are people that want to eliminate you.

Mat Staver: 5:58

So we have to take a lot of extra security precautions. We have security cameras all over our facilities and at our home and we do active shooter training with our staff. You know most of our staff are armed just in case of those kinds of situations God forbid, but we take security precautions. However, that doesn't change a thing that we do other than be aware of our surroundings. For our clients, you know they sacrifice everything. There are clients, for example, in the military, a commander of a Navy surface warship and he says I'm not going to take the COVID shots because of religious reasons, because of the aborted fetal cells, and he put his entire career on the line. He's an individual that is just incredibly inspiring, and so many others like these.

Mat Staver: 6:50

Individuals that we have met in the military of all branches are so inspiring.

Mat Staver: 6:55

They put their entire careers on the line. These are some people that had 19 and a half years in the military and they only needed six months or less to reach their 20 year retirement, and they were willing to put it all on the line, and some of them frankly did. There's others that we represent, like Kim Davis. The case is still going on from 2015. She's the Kentucky clerk who says I can't put my name and authority on a marriage that God didn't design and create in sanction, and so, as a result, that case is still going on. We may end up back at the US Supreme Court with the Kim Davis case, but what's inspiring is that there are people who don't go out looking for a fight. They're not causing trouble. Many of them are not activists politically per se, but when the controversy comes knocking on their door, they press into God and they have a stronger relationship because of the adversity that comes against them and they take a stand, and they ended up changing future history.

Kelly Tshibaka: 7:59

It's a good way to say it, Mat. You're describing ordinary Americans who have a conflict that comes their way and in the face of that they demonstrate extraordinary courage. And these are really big costs. You're talking about retirement. Put your life as at risk, your finances at risk, your reputation, friends, family. But what makes that cost worth it? What are some of the things that you've seen being on the front lines for all these years that you go? You know, this is why we get up every morning, or this is why we do it.

Mat Staver: 8:32

You know, just as an example, when we were in the height of some of these mandates, we did regular calls all the time, conference calls, multiple conference calls every week, and we had people on those calls crying, just weeping, because they knew that they had somebody that was standing with them and that they were able to just have counsel, not just legal counsel, but spiritual counsel as well. Transformative lives, I mean. We've seen their faith grow. We've seen, as a result of their stand, other people come to the Lord because they see Jesus in their actions and they are transformed in all that they do. It's an incredible experience.

Mat Staver: 9:24

I would not trade that for millions and millions of dollars in the bank account. That's a temporary, as you mentioned, Niki. You know that's temporary and that comes and goes, but this is a legacy. The legacy that we leave is not so much what we do, it's the people we leave, that we touch, that we help, and that legacy has a ripple effect, like throwing a pebble in a pond. It literally has a ripple effect that goes on and echoes into eternity.

Kelly Tshibaka: 9:53

There's a Bible verse that says the Lord is with you like a dread champion, and I think a lot of times in the pictures we see of Jesus painted he's this subdued character with children, and we don't often think about how the Lord is like this guy in your corner. When you need backup and you need a heavy, we need that person to come in and have our back, and it sounds like that's what you're describing. Is this benefit of creating a community of courageous people who can stand together, and there are times you're going to get knocked down, but together when you stand you're just stronger, and having those people in that community to build you up is really important.

Mat Staver: 10:40

Absolutely. Let me give you a quick example, if I might. In the case that we won last year 2022, 9 to 0 at the Supreme Court, Shurtleff versus the city of Boston. How? Shurtleff is the founder of Camp Constitution and all he wanted to do with that is to train young people in the Constitution and the founding principles of the rule of law. So he wanted to do this in Boston and he applied to have a flag flown for about an hour during his event, in which it would highlight the Judeo-Christian heritage and history of Boston. In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, they had 284 flags that they had approved over 12 years. Not a single denial pro-communist, anti-communist they had all kinds of different viewpoints. They told him that you can fly the flag, but you've got to change one word on the application Don't call it Christian, call it something that's non-religious. The flag's okay. What's the problem is your perception of the flag. If you consider the flag to be religious or Christian, you can't fly it. If you will change it to a non-religious, modifier Camp Constitution flag anything but Christian you can fly it.

Mat Staver: 11:45

Hal said no and we thought that that would be a no-brainer case. We lost at the Court of Appeals twice three to zero and then one nine to zero at the US Supreme Court. That particular case May the 2nd ultimately rejected the lemon test of 1971. That also became the foundation for the Coach Kennedy case later in June that also rejected the lemon test. As a result of those two cases, what we began when we found at Liberty Council in 1989 as a mission among many to overturn the lemon versus Kurtzman case that wreaked damage to the First Amendment, that became a reality decades later in 2022 with this case. So what was intended for evil or ill to Hal Shurtleff into censor? God turned around for good. Hal had a choice. He could have walked away and we would never have this precedent and lemon would still be standing. But Hal decided to take a stand and we were there to help him and as a result, decades in the making, lemon has been overturned and that will have generational impact.

Kelly Tshibaka: 12:55

We'll be back with more inspiring stories with Mat Staver after this. Stand by. Welcome back to Stand. Today we're standing with Mat Staver, the founder and chairman of Liberty Council. You can learn more about their critical work and help them out at LC. org. Mat, I want to pick up on what we were just talking about, this important case that came out of the Supreme Court that you were talking about Shurtleff vs Boston and the overturn of the Lemon Test. Now Niki and I are totally tracking with you and geeking out on this, but imagine there are some people who wonder if we're talking about dessert and what is this Lemon Test and why is it so important to Americans? Could you just talk to us a little bit about why that was so critical for Liberty Council to overturn for all these years and what it means for the average person that's listening right now?

Mat Staver: 14:05

Certainly. The Lemon Test came from a case in 1971 at the Supreme Court called Lemon vs Kurtzman, and it distorted the First Amendment Establishment Clause, ultimately affecting the Free Exercise Clause and the Free Speech Clause. It was used as a wrecking ball, for example, to remove 10 Commandments, nativity Scenes, stars of David, crosses, other religious symbols and in the Coach Kennedy case, just as an example, like in the Shurtleff case, if your perception was religious or Christian, you couldn't have equal access in a public facility, public square. So Coach Kennedy could kneel down and he could think secular thoughts. If that's what he wanted to think, that's fine. He could be opposing the National Anthem, that's okay. He could be thinking about where he's going to order the pizza for the gang after the game, that's fine. But if he thought about prayer silently, that's not okay under Lemon. If Hal Shurtleff wanted to raise the flag, if the flag's okay, as long as you deem it to be secular, but if you deem it to be religious, it's not. And that was Lemon.

Mat Staver: 15:08

Lemon was overturned, so there is a whole new day ahead of us as a result of Lemon. In fact, not only was Lemon overturned in the 1970s, with the 2022 cases, but between 2022 and 2023, Lemon was overturned 1971, roe vs Wade 1973, abortion was overturned. The TWA case 1977, that really gutted religious protection in the workplace that was overturned as well. And then the 1978 case affirmative action in college admissions that also has been overturned. Fourteen months of overturning the 1970s activist court from that era, 50 years ago, and it will have huge impact in so many different ways going forward.

Kelly Tshibaka: 15:58

Yeah, what you just outlined for us is in the last 50 years, of people taking cases up and standing strong and facing defeat. We've heard all these cases go forward where it's been no or no cert has been granted or they've lost it, lower courts and they've had to take their licking. You've been taking these cases up at state court and federal court and many others that we've read about in articles.

Kelly Tshibaka: 16:27

50 years later it's a whole generation later all of a sudden victory, victory, victory, victory, and the original meaning, the original intent of the Constitution is now being preserved and handed down. That's huge and I think for those of us who are listening right now and wondering, do I get in this battle again, do I keep fighting? What you just outlined is so encouraging for everybody about why we take a stand, why we stand up for our convictions and values, why it's worth it. Because it's not about if you're going to get knocked down. It's about who can get back up again and stay in the fight, because the fight is worth fighting. Some causes are so noble that their, their nobility is even worthy in the defeat you keep fighting, having your your hopes set on the future.

Mat Staver: 17:18

Absolutely. And an example of that is in 1992, there was a case at the US Supreme Court. We filed an amicus brief on it. It was graduation prayer. We thought that the court should hold it. It was a very short prayer I think it was given by a rabbi, and the Supreme Court ultimately struck it down. We filed a brief asking the court to overturn lemon. This was 1992.

Mat Staver: 17:42

I was depressed for about two days after that and then I said you know what? This was? Just a temporary defeat. We need to regroup and figure out how to attack this and move forward and set precedent. And we moved forward with student initiated graduation prayer, viewpoint discrimination and those things eventually made their way to the US Supreme Court. Now the lemon test is gone, so it taught me a lesson back in 1992.

Mat Staver: 18:08

I don't ever get discouraged from these defeats and I encourage people not to get discouraged, not to give up when you get defeated. It's a temporary setback. You got to regroup and the real issue is not whether you're going to get knocked down. You will get knocked down. That's a question. Will you get back up? Yeah, and when you get back up, you have to keep on getting back up and press forward. And I think when we look at history, particularly biblical history, it gives us that encouragement that, no matter how bad things are, whether it was the Jews during the time of the Exodus, or Esther during Persia or whatever it might be, God ultimately prevailed against the impossible.

Kelly Tshibaka: 18:51

Let's jump off on this theme that you're talking about in history, because you are quite the student of history. But we're in some difficult times right now and it can be challenging to contextualize this increasing trend towards censorship, the weaponization of government, especially against people who have certain ideas, hyper partisanship. When you look back, and the understanding of history that you have, how does your perspective on history shape your understanding of current events that we're experiencing now?

Mat Staver: 19:23

Well, we're living in a very significant time of challenges to so many things, as you mentioned, and I look at it both from a historical standpoint and in a short term, but also from a particularly a long term perspective. And put myself, for example, if I were the Jews in Egypt and I were having to go out in labor every day and see people abused and beaten and cry out to God and ask why are we not being delivered? When you're living in that moment, it's hard to see beyond those circumstances. But now we know it's in those difficult times, with people like Moses and others that made difficult decisions, put everything on the line, and when they were willing to put everything on the line, where there was no safety net, where it was a point of no return, God used those people, and those are the things that change history. The same thing with Esther she put everything on the line. She had not, we would never know who Esther was.

Mat Staver: 20:19

We look at the three Hebrews that were thrown in the fiery furnace. They were trusting in God, but they were willing literally to give everything up, including their lives. And if they just decided to compromise and say you know what, in my mind I'll curse this statute and I'll pray to God, but I'll bow down just so that it looks okay for everyone else, so that my head's not chopped off, I'm not thrown into the fiery furnace. They could have done that a bit easy, very easy to compromise. They said no. When others bowed, they stood and they were thrown in the fiery furnace.

Mat Staver: 20:50

It's those things that change history. It's those things that ultimately echo through history. So when I look at those kinds of things much worse than what we're experiencing now I know with God all things are possible and what is intended for evil, God can turn around for good and the real difference between that and status quo is one person or group of people willing to stand for God and put everything on the line where there's no safety. In that and God will do incredible, mighty works that will change history and that will echo, as I say, through the ages to come.

Niki Tshibaka: 21:27

That's a really powerful point, Mat, and I was just thinking about when you talk about putting it all on the line. You know, our founders and the Declaration of Independence were willing to sacrifice their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor, and it was only because they were willing to do that that we enjoy the freedoms that we have today. And so I'm just thinking about so something.

Niki Tshibaka: 21:53

George Washington said a quote on freedom of speech.

Niki Tshibaka: 21:56

He said that if the freedom of speech is taken away, then, dumb and silent, we may be led like sheep to the slaughter.

Niki Tshibaka: 22:06

And I think that's not just true of freedom of speech, it's true of the free exercise of religion. The two are intricately intertwined because they both go to conscience and an expression of your, your thoughts and your viewpoints. You said something very powerful earlier where you said that you don't hate your legal opponents, and I think that's so important for people to understand that when you and your clients are standing for your convictions and beliefs and our views above the Constitution, which stem from originalism, it's not just for your client's sake, it's actually even for the sake of your opponents, ironically, and what motivates you isn't hate, it's actually love. So a question for you what do you think the next legal battles will be in your ongoing fight to protect freedom of speech and free exercise of religion, and how do you do that in a way that communicates to those who oppose you that your motivation isn't hatred or bigotry or disgust or judgment or condemnation. It is actually love.

Mat Staver: 23:26

Yeah, well, those are good questions, I think, in the area of life, obviously, we want a huge battle at the US Supreme Court, with the overturning of Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood versus Casey, but that now moves the battle back down to the level of the people, members of Congress and the state legislatures, and so that battle is very, very intense and the history is unwritten yet it's being written as we speak as to which states are going to protect the sanctity of human life, the most vulnerable among us, or are not going to protect the sanctity of human life. So that's a huge battle that is moving forward right now. That's not only here in the United States, but it's also on a global level with the World Health Organization, other things that are taking place on a global scale. With respect to the clash between religious freedom and anything related to LGBTQ, that is a big issue that we're in the midst of. A big case was won just recently at the Supreme Court, but there are many others that are coming down the line, and the abolition of gender is part of that, and we're starting to see unbelievable kinds of stories come out from children and parents in the public, schools and other venues where they're being really indoctrinated into a very dangerous idea and they're actually being in many cases misdiagnosed with regards to different issues that they might have, whether they're on the autism spectrum or have other stressors in their lives and they're being pushed Instead of getting proper treatment and therapy, they're getting pushed down a road of transgenderism and puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and other kinds of surgical interventions which are very dangerous and damaging. So those kinds of things, I think, will continue to move forward.

Mat Staver: 25:23

When you talk about these kinds of things, both from a spiritual, constitutional or from a rational perspective, no matter how much and we try to do that as much as possible that you convey to people that just because I'm on a different side of this issue than you are, doesn't mean that I hate you.

Mat Staver: 25:42

In fact, that would be contrary to who we are, be contrary to our following our Lord Jesus Christ, who loves everyone and respects you know, we respect the human dignity of every person.

Mat Staver: 25:53

But no matter how much you say that, I think it is kind of like a strawman argument Somebody, instead of being able to attack or deal with the merits of your argument, they paint you in a certain way or paint the argument in a certain way, and then they attack that. So they attack you as a person, and they try to misrepresent you as a person and call you a hater or a hate group and so forth of that nature, and that's unfortunate. I think we can't, in kind, respond. We just have to continue to argue the principles, argue what's right, and do it so in love. I think the problem with that you have, though, is that, when you get into this area particularly with politicians that are not prepared for this they get into this area and they make a statement, but not prepared for this overwhelming avalanche of hostility that comes against them, and, instead of staying true to their principles, they either change or they remain silent, and that's not an option.

Niki Tshibaka: 26:55

All right, when we come back with Civil Liberties litigator Mat Staver, I'd like to ask you, Mat, for some practical advice you could give our audience on how they can stand in their spheres of influence in communities for what they believe will be right back on stand, stand by, welcome back to stand everybody. We're talking with Mat Staver of Liberty Council, and every generation of Americans has a sacred duty to defend and protect our Constitution. Every generation has a responsibility to pass on to the next the freedoms that they've enjoyed. You and your team at Liberty Council have answered that call. You guys are all in. I'm wondering, though, what are some of the ways our listeners could answer that particular call to specifically I'm thinking about how can they stand for freedom of speech, for free exercise of religion in their spheres of influence and in their communities. What are some practical things they can do?

Mat Staver: 28:25

I think the first thing is to understand your identity. So many people don't know who they are. They search for their identity in different places, and my identity is subtly grounded in Jesus Christ. So that's where my identity is centered and consequently, it's from that particular identity and that relationship that everything else springs forth. Truth is always truth and it's never going to change throughout eons of the ages. So don't be afraid of speaking the truth, even when the populace goes the other way.

Mat Staver: 28:59

The eugenic movement back in the 1920s, all the way to the US Supreme Court, was pervasive in every field. There were some dissenting voices. Bonhoeffer was a dissenting voice among the Nazi Germany time, even among religious leaders, and I think, like Bonhoeffer, one of the things that impressed me about his life is that he made certain decisions along the way. You ask yourself how can he come to a point where he is hung just two weeks or so because before Nazism falls and he's steadfast in his actions? Well, he didn't just all of a sudden wake up one day and become that strong and bold. It was things along the way, decisions and stands along the way, that ultimately God prepared him for the next challenge in his life.

Mat Staver: 29:47

So I would say for your viewers and listeners number one press into the Lord. Number two be aware of your surroundings. I was totally unaware of abortion back in 1983, yet I knew the scriptures a lot, I knew the languages, but I was unaware of the issues in my community life and death that was taking place by these clinics. Every time I drive by, get educated, become aware and then ask the Lord how can he use you? And he's going to use you one step at a time. And every time he uses you he's going to prepare you for something even greater, so that when even greater challenges come, you'll be prepared to make those decisions and make those stands.

Niki Tshibaka: 30:28

That's great. You refer to Dietrich Bonhoeffer and he's one of my personal heroes, a theologian, a pastor, an academic and a spy. He was spying on Hitler and standing against the Nazis and, like you said, he sacrificed everything for that. I really appreciate how you phrased all of that. For people of faith, could you also talk about from a perspective if, for example, a member of our audience isn't necessarily religious, what would you say to them about how they could stand practically?

Mat Staver: 31:07

speaking. Well, I think you said it, Niki that we are blessed to live in this country. So many men and women gave their lives, shed their blood, put everything on the line to give us freedom. There are so many places around the world right now that have no freedom. They don't have freedom of speech, they're coerced by the government, they're censored much more than anything that we could ever imagine.

Mat Staver: 31:31

We are born, we live in or we are part of this nation. That is a land of freedom. That gives us incredible opportunity and that is a gift. And it's an obligation for us to pass on, to maintain the torch of liberty, but to pass it on to the next generation so that they can enjoy the kind of freedom that we enjoy. So it doesn't really matter what your worldview is in terms of religion. The fact is, I think there's always no matter what your faith is or whether you don't have any particular basis of faith we all have this longing and desire to be free. That's an innate human thing that we all share, no matter where we are, that we love freedom. We want to be free, and we have the obligation to be able to pass it on to future generations. And, as Ronald Reagan says it doesn't get passed on in your DNA. Each generation has to fight for it.

Kelly Tshibaka: 32:26

Well, Mat, I want to build on what you were saying that you don't just wake up one day and become a brave constitutional rights and civil liberties activist like you. What was one of your early stories? About a major obstacle you faced and you really had to push through with perseverance and resilience. How did you stay encouraged despite this big challenge? Could you share with us a story like that?

Mat Staver: 32:51

Well, you know, when I was in high school I was very quiet, I was very shy. I would walk down the hallway and I would look at the tops of my shoes, rather than you know, people faced. The last thing I thought I was going to be doing is arguing in courts, and certainly I would never think I'd argue before the United States Supreme Court. But you know, in giving my life to the Lord and then just taking those challenges, one little bite at a time, eventually the Lord prepared me for the things that I had no idea were in my future. I didn't know I would become Dean of a law school and take a law school through all levels of accreditation.

Mat Staver: 33:27

So it's just really baby steps, if you will, where the Lord prepares you step by step to take you places where you didn't think you were going. In fact, the Gospel of John at the very end of the passage it's talking about Peter and he says you know, when you're young you basically clothe yourself. When you get older, somebody else directs you. It's talking about how Peter was ultimately going to eventually give his life for the Lord that he betrayed. He wasn't quite prepared for that, but the Lord prepared him for that over time. So I would say to people God has an incredible plan for each one of us and he has a plan that's above and above beyond what you could ask, imagine or think, and just take one step at a time, one day at a time, and he will reveal that plan to you as you move forward and do things beyond what you could possibly imagine.

Kelly Tshibaka: 34:23

That's good. Now you've given us a lot of wisdom and a lot of advice, and you've taken one step at a time, day by day. What's one of the accomplishments that you feel the most proud of?

Mat Staver: 34:36

Well, I think one of the most important accomplishments is what happened in the last two years overturning Roe v Wade and overturning the lemon test. Now we have to, now that we've gained that ground, we have to expand it and maintain the ground. And the other accomplishment is launching a K through 12 Christian online academy to train a whole new generation of children, from kindergarten up, and our vision is to move beyond kindergarten through 12th grade, to college and university as well, to have this incredible base of education, because our educational system, as you know, is broken. It's certainly challenged and we can't keep on doing the same thing. So we have been very blessed to work with so many good people and we're very excited about one of the new adventures that we're doing with our Covenant Journey Academy, which has our K through 12 full service online Christian based education.

Kelly Tshibaka: 35:33

Wow, that's great. What can our audience do to support Liberty Council?

Mat Staver: 35:39

They can go to Liberty Council's website. It's very simple. It's just lc. org, Liberty Council, lc. org. There's lots of information there. You can sign up for some of our emails that we send out on a regular basis. You can donate online as well and find other resources lc. org.

Kelly Tshibaka: 35:58

And I was on your website earlier and preparing to talk with you and saw some of your amazing work that you're doing in the big cases. What's some of the big cases you'd like to highlight for us?

Mat Staver: 36:08

Well, we just filed a petition to the Supreme Court this week with regards to health care workers out of Maine and it's a big issue a clash between the federal law and state law. We have a petition that is pending there on Sandra Merritt, and she is the individual who was one of the undercover videographers regarding Planned Parenthood's baby body parts for sale scheme. That could likely go to the US Supreme Court. It's a huge issue that is against Planned Parent Pending before the US Supreme Court, and that's just one of many, many cases that we're involved in.

Kelly Tshibaka: 36:44

Yeah, it's interesting that, instead of criminalizing the behavior of selling baby body parts, they criminalize the undercover investigative journalist.

Mat Staver: 36:55

That's right and if this case were to stand, it would literally be a very big threat to any undercover journalist in the country. In fact, in California we actually argued just before this case. There was a PETA. In fact, peta filed a MECA's brief in our support at the Court of Appeals because they did undercover investigation of animal abuse with the hidden cameras and so forth, and it ultimately changed the animal abuse that they were trying to uncover and expose. Kim Davis I mean Sandra Merritt and David DeLighten did the same thing with this unbelievable undercover documentary or video.

Mat Staver: 37:35

That was all done in public places where people were bragging about harvesting baby body parts and selling them for enormous amounts of profit. They should be behind bars, they should be punished. But in fact, what happened is the journalists are the ones going to court. We have this case at the US Supreme Court. It's a $16 million judgment in the lower court on behalf of Planned Parenthood against our clients, which is outrageous and then we're going to the criminal trial later this fall with regards to the same issue. All this started with Kamala Harris and then later, like Xavier Becerra, the then attorney generals of California, now in the Biden administration.

Kelly Tshibaka: 38:17

Right.

Niki Tshibaka: 38:18

You know that it's so tragic and sad to hear of people profiting off of the pain of mothers who've lost their children and the children themselves. Mat, it's been so great to have you on the show. We really appreciate your wisdom forged in the fire of experience. You are welcome on the show anytime. We really appreciate you and Liberty Council. People can go online at LC. org If they want to support Liberty. We'll be back shortly to talk about our conversation with Mat Staver. Take care, Mat, and God bless.

Mat Staver: 38:53

Thank you, good to be with you.

Kelly Tshibaka: 39:15

Welcome back to stand. We just had a fascinating conversation with Mat Staver, the president and founder of Liberty Council, Niki, I want to jump back into a case that Mat was talking about with us. This Supreme Court case, he argued, called Shurt leff versus Boston. So he was describing how Shurtleff put forward a petition to get permission to fly a flag that he said was a Christian flag on Constitution Day over City Hall, and Boston said no and, despite losing at all the lower courts, Mat Staver and Liberty Council won 9 to 0 at the Supreme Court, which was a huge victory for the freedom of religion.

Kelly Tshibaka: 39:57

What I think was super interesting about this case is a couple things. First and Mat didn't talk about this both the Biden administration and the ACLU cited with the Liberty Council in supporting Shurtleff in his desire to fly this flag. So it's interesting how constitutional rights can bring together unlikely political alliances. When it comes to just a simple reading of the plain bill of rights, you've got the Biden administration and ACLU and Mat Staver all going to court together saying that the city of Boston was wrong. I thought that was interesting.

Kelly Tshibaka: 40:36

Another thing I thought was interesting is when they actually wanted the Supreme Court and they got to go back to Boston and fly this flag with permission of the city. It ended up being a huge turnout, so hundreds of people came, tons of media coverage and if they just let him fly the flag, originally no one would have even known it was a Christian flag. It just would have been a nondescript flag flying with other flags over Boston City Hall. But because they made such an issue out of it, and it goes to years of court cases and battles, culminating in this Supreme Court case, this one little, tiny, nondescript flag draws so much attention and national media, ending up having a much bigger effect and message for Jesus Christ than ever could have been accomplished originally. And I think that goes to what Mat was saying earlier in his interview when he said you know sometimes what the enemy would intend for harm. God intends for good, and so you feel like you're losing, losing, losing, but in fact it's this backdoor to some huge win.

Niki Tshibaka: 41:51

Yeah, no, that's great. And the enemy of course you're talking about is the enemy of our souls and I find it really encouraging, as you mentioned, to see that kind of unity, especially during these divisive times, because it reminds us that whatever is going on in the larger arc of history, we're all in this together and the Constitution was intended to be a document that bound us together under shared values and principles and timeless truths that we chose as a nation to live by, protect and respect. I think you see that unity not just in the ACLU and the Biden administration support. You also see that unity in the Supreme Court decision.

Kelly Tshibaka: 42:49

right, we're all the justices yeah, nine to zero.

Niki Tshibaka: 42:52

Nine to zero, right. So it's a hopeful reminder to us all that we can come together. I mean even the case he was mentioning where Peter was on their side, right. That again you're seeing people coming together who have these shared convictions. And I think it's important for our audience to understand and we tried to make, I think, this clear in our interview with Mat, and he communicated this as well is that these cases aren't just about Liberty Council's clients. They're about all of us. The standing to protect the right to fly that flag wasn't just about oh, let's protect Christianity the free exercise of religion.

Niki Tshibaka: 43:40

for Christianity, it's about all faiths, no faiths, all freedom, all right. And so I think those are the because, when these cases often get spun by the media or groups who oppose, you know, or on the other side of the issue, they'll often try to spin it as well. This is just trying to advance this particular special interest, but that's not what these cases are about. So I think it's a beautiful irony, but it's an irony nonetheless where you have people like Liberty Council who are actually, in a real way, fighting for the very people who are opposing them in some of these cases.

Niki Tshibaka: 44:24

So you mind if I pivot to something else I noticed in the interview.

Kelly Tshibaka: 44:29

I'm fascinated by what you're saying.

Niki Tshibaka: 44:30

I know I'm such a fascinating person it's why you married me.

Niki Tshibaka: 44:35

You know the stuff that Mat talked about in terms of, first of all, love, that they don't have hatred towards those who disagree with them. That was so important in this again, these turbulent and tense times that we don't get so angry and bitter with people who disagree with us ideologically, politically, that we dehumanize them and we begin, because that's what hatred does it dehumanizes the person that it's directed to. So I thought that was a very important reminder on his part to say no, we choose to love, and I think that's critical. And, of course, seeing Biden's administration, the ACLU step up and PETA on this. Other cases also reminder that the people that we often say are. We often talk in absolutes right now and extremes in our dialogue today and these kind of cases remind us that nobody is absolutely X or absolutely Y right, that there are places where we can all come together.

Niki Tshibaka: 45:48

If I can just share something from history, because we were talking about American history, daniel Webster was Secretary of State twice. He was one of the most prominent attorneys in our country in the 1800s. He argued approximately 200 cases, 200 cases before the United States Supreme Court. I think he's the second most prolific Supreme Court litigator in our nation's history. Anyway, listen to what Webster said. I just want to pull this up here. He said hold on to the Constitution of your country and the government established under it. Hold on. In other words, webster was warning us that our Constitution in our country can be lost, which is why it's so important to have organizations like Liberty Council and even like the ACLU. We mean, I always agree with on everything, but there are some things that we do agree with them on from a litigation standpoint. We need these organizations who are standing up to protect our constitutional liberties. While we might disagree sometimes on what you know, the interpretation of the Constitution might be the heart to protect our Constitution. Liberties is what's important.

Niki Tshibaka: 47:02

Close with this, and I'd like to get your reaction to this, he goes on to say Webster does quote we live under the only government that ever existed which was formed by the deliberate consultations of the people. The people form the government, government by the people, we the people for the people. Right, he said, miracles do not cluster. That which has happened, but once in 6000 years cannot be expected to happen. Often Such a government, once destroyed, would have a void to be filled, perhaps for centuries, with evolution and tumult, riot and despotism. End quote. So his counsel to his generation of Americans, into our generation, is not to take our Constitution Republic for granted, because if we lose it, he says that tyranny and violence are going to follow and it'll be very difficult to restore what we once had. So that's why I think it's so important that we stay on our toes about protecting our constitutional rights. What do you think about?

Kelly Tshibaka: 48:02

I think that goes to what we were asking Mat about how do you interpret current events and the light of historical events into what you're saying? From Webster, we don't see great empires followed by great empires, right, and I hear a lot of people today saying let's just burn it all down or blow it all up and start over. But then when you ask with what, they don't have a good answer. And I think Mat hit on that a little bit when we were asking him how do you persevere or how do you take these attacks, and his answer was I know who I am. So it goes back to identity and values. You can't prescribe values and identity for a nation if you can't prescribe them for yourself or for your small group or your family or your community or your city. You get the idea. I think we have to start with who before we can trickle down to what it's kind of the basic of a strategic plan.

Kelly Tshibaka: 49:01

The constitution is a large identity document and I think a lot of what we're feeling now in the shifting of the country is an identity scramble. We're tearing down those statues and those monuments and shredding those documents or largely rewriting them in the classroom, and so we lose that mooring. I mean, you know that several of our children, their classrooms, aren't even teaching the Pledge of Allegiance anymore. The pledge isn't to a national government or a deep state. The pledge is to each other. That we pledge allegiance to this symbol that says we've got each other's backs. And so then, who are we and what are we?

Kelly Tshibaka: 49:44

And, to your point, if we don't stand for the constitution, if we don't stand for our country, what are our military members fighting for? What are they signing up to put their lives on the line for, and their families? What's that sacrifice for? These are the enduring questions that are being, I think, provoked right now, when we're starting to pull on the threads of national identity. And it gets back to what are you standing for? Knowing who you are, what your values are, why you're getting up every morning and doing what you're doing enables you to persevere and stand and make decisions like I will serve my country or I will get into this fight. I don't think it's wise to say we're just gonna blow it up and start over. I think to what I think you're saying. It's better to try and work within the system to change it.

Niki Tshibaka: 50:34

Yeah, and work with each other. Exactly Because we're all in this together and to your point, you were talking about empires. The Roman Empire never came back.

Kelly Tshibaka: 50:42

Right.

Niki Tshibaka: 50:43

The Napoleonic Empire never came back. Ottomans, Persians Ottomans never came back. Shaka Zulu's empire in South Africa never came back. So we really have to take seriously these attacks to your point on our national identity, which is expressed through the Constitution. So we all need to stand together and stand for our constitutional liberties.

Kelly Tshibaka: 51:08

Yeah and friends, that's a wrap for us for more episodes of Stand that will inspire and empower you. Subscribe to At the Stand Show on YouTube, follow us on social media under Kelly for Alaska, and you can learn more on our website, standshow. org. Until next time, stand firm and stand strong, everyone, and remember often our victory is simply in the standing. We'll see you next time. We'll see you next time.