Beyond Quick Fixes: Real Solutions for Fundraiser Burnout with Raiya Sankari-Diaz

Ever wonder why so many fundraisers are burnt out and how to truly support their well-being? Join us as we engage with Raiya Sankari-Diaz, a global HR expert, to uncover the hidden causes of burnout in the fundraising sector. Forget superficial solutions like mindfulness apps; Raiya shares why authentic well-being programs, backed by genuine leadership buy-in, are essential. We explore the pitfalls of "care washing," where insincere initiatives lead only to dissatisfaction and disengagement, and we offer real-life insights and actionable strategies for fundraisers seeking more meaningful change.

Shift gears with us as we explore how smaller nonprofits can cultivate a healthy workplace culture that thrives on connection, creativity, and employee well-being. We dive into the importance of holistic approaches, emphasizing psychological safety, trust, and flexibility. Learn how to effectively engage stakeholders and gather meaningful data to tailor well-being initiatives to your organization’s specific needs. Even if you're not in HR, discover how you can influence positive change through cross-functional collaboration and data-driven approaches. Let’s break the culture of scarcity and work towards a thriving, inclusive workplace environment that stands the test of time.

HBR Article: Why Workplace Well-Being Programs Don't Achieve Better Outcomes

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Transcript

Burnout and Well-Being in Fundraising

Keith Greer, CFRE 0:05

Hey , there , hi , and welcome back ambitious fundraisers . Today's episode is one you cannot afford to miss . We're diving into a conversation that gets to the heart of something we all feel , but don't talk about enough burnout and well-being in fundraising . If you've read the recent Harvard Business Review article why Workplace Well-Being Programs Don't Achieve Better Outcomes and don't worry if you haven't , the link is in the show notes you know that so many of the programs designed to support employee well-being missed the mark . Why ? Because they focus on surface-level fixes without addressing the deeper systemic challenges that cause burnout in the first place . They call this care washing and fundraisers . We see this play out all the time .

Keith Greer, CFRE 0:52

Here's the reality . As fundraisers , we're under immense pressure high dollar goals , emotional labor , leadership's expectations and the looming weight of our organization's survival . A mindfulness app or a one-off yoga class isn't going to cut it when the job itself is burning us out . So how can we , as fundraising professionals , advocate for real , meaningful change in our workplaces ? Today , I'm thrilled to be joined by Raiya Sankari-Diaz , a global HR expert who brings years of experience and insights into what works and what doesn't when it comes to employee well-being . Together , we're unpacking the challenges of burnout , the importance of systemic change and what nonprofit leaders and fundraisers can do right now to influence healthier workplace cultures .

Keith Greer, CFRE 1:41

Raiya and I cover a ton of ground , from leadership , buy-in and emotional labor to practical first steps and the future of workplace well-being . If you've ever felt stretched too thin or wondered how to spark meaningful change in your organization , this conversation is for you . All right , let's get into it and let's talk fundraising . Raiya is a strategic and compassionate HR leader with extensive experience driving transformative people strategies in Fortune 500 companies , nonprofits and government organizations Known for fostering inclusion and psychological safety . Raiya has successfully expanded talent pipelines and led cultural transformations at Kimberly Clark , mutual of Omaha and the City of Green Bay . Her expertise spans talent pipelines and led cultural transformations at Kimberly-Clark , mutual of Omaha and the City of Green Bay . Her expertise spans talent management , employee engagement and strategic planning , empowering organizations to achieve sustainable growth . A committed advocate for belonging and equity , raya brings a unique blend of emotional intelligence and strategic vision to create high-performing , inclusive workplaces where employees thrive . So welcome to the podcast .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 2:48

Keith , thank you for having me . I'm super excited to be here with you .

Keith Greer, CFRE 2:52

Oh , I'm thrilled to have you . Let's just dive right into this article that we found so . You've worked globally in HR and you've seen all sides of the equation when it comes to employee well-being . What do you see as the biggest challenge , specifically for fundraisers , when it comes to burnout and mental health ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 3:09

Such a great topic , super essential , extremely relevant and , honestly , Keith , across the board employees are facing this , but specifically for fundraisers , I would say some of the key issues that people are facing include just the challenges . So seeking balance , meeting goals , understanding how challenging it can truly be to have these things in front of you and then looking to create that kind of work-life experience and formulating the connection and how to relay what's going on right . And so , if there are challenges taking place , if there's a sense of overwhelm taking place , really looking at how to convey that and work through some of those barriers in order to overcome that and be most successful for sure .

Keith Greer, CFRE 3:54

Totally and in this article . There's a lot of discussion around this idea of care washing and programs that don't address the root cause of burnout For fundraisers , who are often under intense pressure both from the leadership side as well as from donors . Why is it critical that wellbeing programs focus on systemic change instead of just individual solutions ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 4:17

Yeah , that's a great question .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 4:18

So I think the key factor in all of this is thinking through the authenticity component , right , and so there's really an opportunity to have that authenticity .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 4:28

What truly is lacking oftentimes when we think about care washing is the buy-in from leaders , and so there has to be that buy-in from senior leaders , and that has to be cascaded down as well as I say outward , right , and so there has to be momentum behind it , there has to be an understanding , and the authenticity factor is what really creates a success when we think about kind of working through some of these programs .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 4:52

And so , when we think about building out and we think about the experience that employees are having , how are they being engaged ? Does it feel like something that is true to them ? Are they being pulled to see what's important to them ? Are their employee engagement surveys taking place ? How are leaders putting their finger on the pulse of what's truly important to individuals that they're working with , and how does that show up in the workplace , right ? How is that a part of workplace culture ? And so that's a large piece of this is really understanding from a care washing perspective , where's the authenticity coming in from , and how are people tuning in to understand what is important to their employees and how can they best serve their employees first , so that the employees can serve the communities and meet the goals that are in front of them .

Keith Greer, CFRE 5:38

Yeah , and so when we talk a little bit about care washing , what is that ? What's the impact of care washing on employees in an organizational well-being program ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 5:48

Well , I'll give you an example . If we think about recognition as a component of well-being , right ? So there was a study done once upon a time within health care , and nurses were provided with a piece of candy to thank them for their efforts and their work being done .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 6:04

85% of the nurses in that study resigned due to that , and so , again , it's where that authenticity factor comes in right and it's where you know understanding how to communicate with your people what are they looking for , what's important to them , and diving into that . And there are different resources that can truly equip leaders to help that take place . But the impact of that is disengagement . When we think about care washing right , so we know people become disengaged from their workforce and they tend to have one foot out the door and the impact of that right are dollars and cents . So there's the retraining that has to take place , there's the rehiring . It's a time resource , it's a financial resource , so it really has strong implications when care washing is done .

Keith Greer, CFRE 6:55

And so let's talk a little bit about leadership , because you had mentioned that earlier and that leadership buy-in is a major key to successful well-being initiatives for employees . How can fundraisers advocate for better support from their own leaders , whether they're leading a team themselves or maybe if they're trying to influence the C-suite within their organization ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 7:14

Absolutely so . My response to that , keith , would be to truly see the benefit of speaking up , so using your voice right , so saying what's important to you , having platforms for that . So it's twofold . I believe that it's part of the employer responsibility to share that , but it's also part of the leader responsibility to set up the environment that's conducive to sharing that feedback or that experience right . And so you can go as deep as to say , for example , oftentimes leaders will say , oh , we're having one-on-ones that's not being brought up in the one-on-one right . And part of that is my response to that is that's great that there's a one-on-one situation happening .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 7:54

What about a touch base ? Because a one-on-one and this often gets lost in the HR world when translated to management and things like that so a one-on-one is meant to really go over the work that's taking place , the goals , etc . A touch base is hey , how are you doing , how are things going ? And that can include surrounding life experiences , learnings that you're interested in . It's aside from the work component . So that's where that work-life balance piece comes into play and it's setting the stage to have that connection , that vulnerability , that trust , that psychological safety that will help drive the understanding of what's truly taking place with an employee from a burnout standpoint .

Keith Greer, CFRE 8:37

And I think fundraisers specifically deal with a lot of burnout because we do a lot of emotional labor in our roles right ? So we're constantly yes , especially if we're in a small nonprofit like we're fundraising to keep the lights on sometimes , and so the entire weight of the organization's survival feels like it's resting on our shoulders . So , from your experience , how can organizations adjust their expectations of what fundraisers can do to help reduce this pressure , and what should leaders be doing differently to support their teams ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 9:17

Sure . So , again , understanding , first of all , there's opportunity here to be creative , because when we think about resources internally , we're all feeling a fiscal pinch at this time , right , and so looking at that piece of it is really , really important . And it's important to be transparent about budget and what we do have and what we don't have to drive certain programming and things like that . But there's space to be creative . And so , understanding your team and taking the time to invest in the team and understand what are their passions , what are they excelling in , where would they like to stretch right All of that can really help to grow the experience on a holistic

Building Healthy Workplace Culture

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 9:54

scale . And so when we think about you know , smaller nonprofits that may not have a ton of resources to dive into some of this , and things like that , my advice is connection and creativity . Also , identifying who are your stakeholders . Are you communicating with a communications person perhaps that may have a capability in place where they can step in and help be a stakeholder on a very important project taking place right ? They can step in and help be a stakeholder on a very important project taking place right .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 10:20

When we think about who we're interacting with , we're not necessarily always tapping in .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 10:25

In addition to that , I would go as far as to say is there a community liaison put into place , somebody who really is connected well in the community that can bring that information back ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 10:40

So there's knowledge sharing , there's connecting going on , extremely important when we think about the burnout factor , because oftentimes people we see this across the board , right People are internalizing that rejection and they get isolated .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 10:51

And there's also this silo effect that takes place , a deep , heavy silo effect where individuals are feeling super isolated , not connected with those around them , not connected with their community , and then that hits hard when it comes time to meet those goals , right . And so , in order to kind of bypass some of that , I say think about those in your community who you're not tapping into yet . Have those essential conversation , link up , meet up , have the conversations in order to help delegate some of that , so it's not just being owned in one central space , and that's a key to some of the avoidance piece of burnout is delegation individual who is working as the fundraiser as well as the leadership , to understand where their people are at . How are they delegating ? Are they head down ? Do they have opportunities to connect to elsewhere and are they tapping into that for the deepest , most positive outcome possible , I would say .

Keith Greer, CFRE 11:53

Yeah , and so when we were looking at the article , one of the things that you highlighted was the importance of holistic approaches . Can you walk us through what a successful holistic well-being program actually looks like in practice , because I don't think many of us have actually experienced a really good one , especially in a nonprofit where our resources might be limited . So what does that look like ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 12:14

Sure . So that's going to be super specific to the organization , and so the best way to put your finger on the feel secure , safe , that their voice matters and that their experience matters and that their contributions matter . And so thinking about this is we want a program that fosters trust , psychological safety , balance , flexibility All of these can be key components into what's going to really help drive some of that well-being taking place within an organization . But I think the key thing is the primary thing to understand is how do people want to be communicated with ? Because you have to gather data on this matter . That's simply the first step to understanding what's going to work well for your specific organization . So gathering data looks like you know you can create a high level survey . Hr can do this . Learning and development if that's a thing where you're at , learning and development can help with this . It's finding those kind of key people in those key roles to help foster this . So this can be created , and asking questions like are you satisfied in your workforce ? Are you seeking more flexibility ? What does that look like to you ? And having space for people to communicate what's going to be really important to them . Do they want to be communicated with via email . Would they like to receive a text ? When is that most important to them ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 13:54

Research tells us that if we're going to take the email approach and extend a survey , that would best be done on a Tuesday morning at 10 am versus Thursday at 4 pm , for example .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 14:04

Monday people are heavy with emails and different work going on prepping for the work week . Friday , people are getting ready to close out or maybe off for a long weekend , right . So we know that Tuesday is a sweet spot for really gauging employee well-being . We know that Tuesday is a sweet spot for really gauging employee well-being . Also , a great time to do that is spring , right , because this is kind of a new time and so putting your finger on the pulse in spring is great . Also , checking back in in October is a great time just to see where your employees are at and what's important to them at that time . So that's a strong way of creating a foundation to say , ok , I have this data , now I'm going to begin building . Whether that's sourcing an external vendor to help with some programming , whether it's compiling YouTube videos and then some questions to go with that for a team building day , it really just depends kind of on what's relevant to the people within your personal org and what they're experiencing at that time .

Keith Greer, CFRE 15:03

Yeah , and so when our fundraisers are , they're obviously a lot of times not involved in the HR decisions as part of our daily jobs . How can they help push their organizations to collect that meaningful data on the employee well-being , and how can that data be used to create long-term change ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 15:22

Sure . So , again , connecting I always say don't be afraid to set up a meeting and reach out . It's really important to do some of that cross-functional work . Oftentimes we get super head down in our spaces and we're very focused on our goals and that doesn't leave a whole lot of opportunity to connect in kind of those cross-function spaces . And so thinking about , hey , do I know who my HR person is ? Am I familiar with HR ? Am I familiar ? Do we have learning and development here ? Am I connecting with communications , things like that ? And so putting a meeting on a calendar and saying , hey , I'd just like to do a quick connect for 25 minutes and touch base on some things that are important to me , that's going to be a really strong way to get the ball rolling .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 16:05

The more communication , the more articulation that's happening surrounding this , the easier it is for HR to gauge what really needs to take place and set up those streams for gathering data and then putting that together , and so oftentimes people seek out consultants to do that . But it really doesn't need to be that route . It can be as simple as , again , a high-level survey , understanding what's important to your people and ensuring that there are a few initiatives set up to support that . People are looking for results . I think the worst thing that can happen is when data is collected and nothing is done with it . That leaves a hole in people's hearts , right .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 16:48

And it makes people feel unseen , unheard . So the goal of the reaching out and the conversation and the collecting of the data is to ensure that people feel seen , heard , and that , in turn , will help retain people , especially from a funding standpoint , fundraisers right that retention factor should take place and the data should also reflect that . If these programs are done well and I know that kind of sounds like a whole stream of things , but I've seen this carried out very well in different spaces and so I believe that there is a lot of work behind the scenes that takes place in order to help this be done well and be impactful and effective , and it's not just lip service when it's done well .

Keith Greer, CFRE 17:35

So when you're talking about people that are being seen and heard , that's kind of talking directly to the culture of the workplace . And so how does that workplace culture play in either alleviating or exacerbating the stress within the organization , and how can fundraisers take the lead in shaping a healthier workplace culture ? You know , even if they're not in a senior leadership position .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 17:58

Sure . So I believe that there are leaders in every single seat . Your title doesn't depend on it . It's truly your attitude , your initiative and what's put before you , right , and what you create for yourself . You know what do you want to be a part of and what do you want to create , and so I think about it from a sense of what is your passion , right ? You know , where do you want to invest your energy , what do you want to show up to every day when you come to work ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 18:23

Everybody's heard of the Sunday scaries , right , where people are like , oh , I don't , you know , monday's right around the corner , oh my goodness .

Fostering Healthy Workplace Culture

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 18:31

And so I think the purpose is to create that culture , and the way you do that is , again , to put your finger on the pulse of people . So what somebody could do is perhaps propose a committee , right , a culture committee , workplace culture committee and assemble some individuals who are interested in contributing to that , create a playbook for that . You can create a book club surrounding what does positive workplace culture look like . So there are some different things that can take place in order to help stimulate this environment , and we've also heard culture eats strategy for breakfast , right ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 19:05

That's a very famous quote , and so , strategically speaking , leaders can put a whole bunch of stuff into place , but if the culture of inclusion , of a speak your voice culture , a speak your mind culture , if that's not being perpetuated , that creates those silos again , right , and there's a deterioration , and the worst thing that can happen is the meeting after the meeting , right , and so everybody went there and it wasn't kind of the vibe , and all of a sudden you have , you know , people sectioning off to have conversations about man .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 19:43

This is tough , right , and so that's what we want to avoid with a healthy workplace culture to really build together , to come together to understand what is going to make us not just survive but thrive , and that means something different to everybody . That's why it's super important if a committee is formed , or if there is a connection formed there and something whether it's formal or informal , to have different voices at the table . The key is to bring a different lens forward through everybody and their contribution in order to get this holistic approach to well-being , because if somebody is experiencing something here , somebody else may be experiencing something else , and so that relevancy factor is extremely important . But in order to drive all of that , there has to be trust , and so trust is a key inclusive capability that leaders need to work on in order to foster the rest of this , to really make the workplace culture an environment where individuals feel soothed , present , welcome and as though they belong in order to bring forward their successes and their challenges overall .

Keith Greer, CFRE 20:53

Yeah , and talking about putting together a committee about this .

Keith Greer, CFRE 20:56

This is something that's just kept repeating itself over and over in my life recently , for whatever reason , so I kind of feel the need to bring it up . But it was this idea of talking about how , whenever a new idea is being presented , you should never present it in a group meeting . You should always do the preleg work to meet with people one-on-one , pitch them your idea , get that feedback beforehand , start negotiating at that one-on-one level so that by the time you're presenting it to the group and you're trying to implement change , you already have people that are bought into this idea of where you're wanting to go and where you're wanting to get to . Because in every meeting it always feels like there's at least one , debbie Downer , who is gonna find every excuse in the book to delay , halt or stop the progress altogether . But if you're able to have that kind of coalition around what you're working towards , you are much more effective with bringing those groups together as opposed to launching ideas straight out of the gates . What are kind of your thoughts on that ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 22:04

So I would say transparency is extremely important , and so being transparent about what people are experiencing and , again , that's why surveys are so important , that's why outlets to express what people are going through is so important , and so there should be that transparency factor in my mind when we think about formulating committees . And so when there is data that speaks to the issue , the data speaks for itself . So that takes part of the pressure off the individual to have to push , push , push , persuade , persuade , persuade for something to take place . It's as simple as saying the numbers and the metrics here . They're letting us know that we need to do this , that this culture isn't as holistic as it could be , and we know that when a culture isn't super holistic and when people don't feel engaged , when people feel like they have to hide their feelings or hide aspects of themselves in the workplace , engagement can go down by as much as 85% . And so let that number sink in for leaders and sink in from a financial component . What happens if fundraisers are experiencing an 85% decline in their engagement in the workplace ? That impacts the whole community . So , again , the numbers speak for themselves , and if the data says that somebody isn't feeling engaged , that's enough to if one individual isn't feeling engaged to create a ripple effect , right , and so you want to nip that in the bud by helping to propose strong , systematic approaches to some of this change .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 23:37

So when I think about this , keith , I think about how , again , when we rely on data and data tells us what needs to be done , some of these things can be embedded in the systems and processes , right , like the one-on-one situation I was talking about . Okay , so now we know , as part of our procedure , we may need to have touch bases , especially as part of our onboarding experience , right , and we need to have those check-ins , not only with our new employees but our seasoned employees . Are we having stay conversations , right ? Are we having these conversations ? When we think about exit interviews , are we having stay interviews to see how are people feeling , what's going on here , what can we do more of , and so really thinking about ways that people can really build themselves up , build up their community , their internal community at work it all comes back to . Are we building trust ? Are we embedding those values into the systems and processes that we have ? And when we look at policy , is that reflective of the well-being that we're saying ? That needs to be transformative in this environment .

Keith Greer, CFRE 24:45

And when you talk about that , employees who are disengaged have an 85% drop in productivity . I think one of the biggest frustrations for so many fundraisers is that nonprofits have this culture of scarcity scarcity of resources , scarcity of time and scarcity of an emotional bandwidth because of the work we're doing . How can nonprofits shift away from this scarcity mindset to create a more sustainable work environment for their employees ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 25:17

Such a great question that feels like a million dollar question , Keith .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 25:21

It really is , if I had the complete answer to that , I think that would be just amazing . But I think I refer back to connectivity , staying away from those silos , really focusing on conversation and checking in . There are things that managers can do with their direct reports . Who are fundraisers ? Just using different language , right , and so when we think about the impact that language has on our day , part of that is the recognition factor , right . But also thinking about using language and thinking about leadership styles that truly matter , and so using words of encouragement as silly as that sounds or as cliche as that sounds , it's true , but having there be that authenticity factor behind it utilize what the person is doing and compliment them on that . Their efforts are tremendous , and so let's make sure we're doing that .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 26:15

But we do know , and research tells us this , keith , it says that individuals are more likely to be uplifted by their peers than their manager , and so that's because the peers are the ones who are interacting on a regular basis , right . The manager may have less interaction taking place on that daily basis , and so peer recognition is a huge piece of this . So teaching peers how to recognize each other and understanding the individual nuances of how people want to be recognized plays a large part in this , of course , as well , and so some people want to be recognized with a note , some people want that public recognition , some people want to be recognized privately in discussion . So there's a lot of different ways that people want to be recognized and that I think that connectivity piece will help break down some of that , so people don't feel so alone in their experience , so overwhelmed , so burned out .

Keith Greer, CFRE 27:13

And so let's get practical for just a minute . What are some of the first steps that a fundraiser or a nonprofit leader can take today to start influencing their organization toward better well-being practices ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 27:24

Connect , talk to your people , communicate , communicate , communicate what is lacking , what is going well , what needs to stop , what needs to pause and what needs to continue .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 27:35

Taking inventory is going to be really important in doing that , through communication and so taking the step to connect , being transparent and saying that , hey , I understand that this is super overwhelming right now , or I understand we're having a great year .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 27:49

What are we going to do to continue that momentum right ? Or what are we going to do in the areas where this burnout is so severe ? And how can I delegate differently from an individual standpoint , when we think about individual contributors and fundraisers , I would say the key is to speak up , use your voice and explain what is not working for you right now , simply what is not going well . One way to do that is to have a crucial conversation , and so that's kind of just focusing in on you know , this is what's happening for me , this is my results at this time . You're sticking to the facts , you're explaining . These are my numbers right now , or this was my experience , and I may need a new strategy or a new approach , but again , the culture is what's going to help shape the opportunity to build that new strategy or to re-strategize , to re-energize some of those capabilities .

Keith Greer, CFRE 28:41

And so looking forward . How do you see the future of workplace well-being programs , evolving especially around high-pressure roles like in fundraising , and what innovations or trends should nonprofit leaders be paying attention to in order to create that lasting change ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 28:56

Sure . So I would say generational diversity is going to play a huge part in understanding what takes place next and how things shape out . And so we know , in 2025 , we're going to have a new set of Gen Z managers coming in , and that's going to really , really shape part of what the well-being process looks like within the workplace . That is for sure . Gen Z is one of the most therapized generations that we have known to us at this point , and so we know that Gen Z plays a large part in shaping some of that well-being , and they have an open approach to well-being , right , and so that's very different from some of the other generations . That research would speak to us and say maybe there are some differences there , and so there's going to be , I think , opportunity for growth and , at the same time , we think about tech , right , and how we use tech when it comes to well-being , and so there's going to be , I think , a drive towards learning how technology really holds close and safe for evolvement of well-being in the workplace .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 30:06

It may be as quick as opening an app up on a phone .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 30:10

It may be , you know , again , thinking that generational diversity , thinking about people who like to have one-on-one experiences or group experiences in person .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 30:19

And so , again , keeping your finger on the pulse of your own community is super important , and when you see those differences be strategic in your offerings , that's my word of advice . And so if we do have individuals who like a one-on-one experience on an app or who like to utilize tech for their well-being , that's great . If you have individuals who say I'd like a book club , I'd like to formulate a committee , have individuals who say I'd like a book club , I'd like to formulate a committee , I'd like to do more in the workplace for team building excellent from a culture component . And so think about how to integrate tech into some of those experiences . There's lots of ways to do that and there are different platforms that can help do that , and so it's really about kind of that flexibility factor . When we think about how we're going to evolve , I think my answer would be how are we going to be most flexible to meet the needs of the people ?

Keith Greer, CFRE 31:12

I think that's a great place for us to wrap up today . Being flexible for the needs of our employees is really , really important , but if somebody wants to reach out and follow up with you for more information , or if they maybe want to do any kind of consulting services , where can people find you ?

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 31:29

I can be reached on LinkedIn , so please reach out , connect with me in LinkedIn space and I'm happy to talk further .

Keith Greer, CFRE 31:36

Perfect , and we'll put a link to your LinkedIn right in the bio and in the show notes of this , so head right there to be able to connect with Raiya Sankari Diaz . Thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom and your expertise . We really appreciate it .

Raiya Sankari-Diaz 31:49

Thank you , Keith . Thanks for having me .