The extra-Ordinary Leader with Dolly Waddell

S3 11: From Feedback to Fire: Kate Thrumble on Why extra-Ordinary Leadership Starts Small

• Dolly Waddell • Season 3 • Episode 11

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This week, I’m joined by Kate Thrumble, SVP and Head of People and Experience at VaynerMedia – a creative agency where leadership is lived out daily in real, human ways. In this episode, Kate shares what it means to lead not with the weight of being the “log”, but as the kindling – the spark that ignites others.

We talk candidly about feedback, connection, culture, performance and the sweet spot between kindness and accountability. Kate brings such clarity to what I often see muddied in corporate rhetoric: how the "ordinary things done well" truly are the markers of extra-Ordinary leadership.

From practical tools like quarterly reviews and personality insights, to the deeper philosophical shifts required to build businesses that feel like spring – full of light, momentum and growth – this conversation is rich with wisdom and grounded honesty. We also explore what it takes to create a happy, high-performing team, how Vayner Media balances business with deep respect for people, and what they call the marriage of the honey and the empire.


Inside This Episode:

  • What extra-Ordinary leadership really means
  • Why the "little things" done consistently create the biggest impact
  • The relationship between happiness and high performance
  • Feedback as a normal rhythm, not a big scary ‘thing’
  • The shift from annual reviews to quarterly check-ins
  • Using tools and coaching styles to build culture
  • Creating ‘spring-like’ businesses where people thrive
  • The art of kind candour and the analogy of the lob, the loiter and the lasso
  • How Kate defines the role of experience in people leadership
  • Being the kindling, not the log – a beautiful metaphor for modern leadership


Mentions & Links:

VaynerMedia – Creative & Media Agency

Insights Discovery (personality profiling tool)

Performance Climate System (team performance tool)

My Book – The extra-Ordinary Leader: 12 Tactics for Finding Your Extra in Business, Leadership, and Life 

Dolly:

I'm so delighted this week to have Kate th Trumble, who is head of people and experience at Vayner Media, a creative agency. And something we talk about that Kate has learned is this concept of holding together the empire of business with the honey and which is which, and you can't really have one without the other. It's such a brilliant marriage of two opposing spaces that make business great. So let's dive in and learn about the honey and the empire. Kate, it is so lovely to have you on the show today.

Kate:

thank you so much for having me

Dolly:

You look slightly regal. It looks like there's a flag, like the kings in residence or

Kate:

Yeah, I'm in, I'm in Buckingham Palace. Uh, this is my side hustle. No, it is actually, there's quite a lot. We're in Faringdon, there's quite a lot of history round here, so we are next to a really old church and yeah, it has a flag outside it, so yeah. Lovely.

Dolly:

Well, that's a bit extra already so tick. But tell me, Kate, what does extra ordinary leadership mean to you?

Kate:

I think extraordinary is really finding the, is doing the ordinary well to an exceptional standard. And what I mean by that is really honing in on the little things. You know, if you are a leader, it's paying attention to the whole piece that you are leading, not just a little part of it. It's paying attention to the little things with an individual and it's. Just really the, or even just thank yous and how we use are huge actually, when it comes to leadership, really, that care sounds so ordinary, right? Like thanks for doing that, but actually that can really be extraordinary and add impact. And on the flip side of that, when you think about actually just the candorous side of things, that's an ordinary thing to do. Hey. That didn't quite land that person, that simple comment and feedback could alter somebody's career because they got that feedback and they worked on it and moved forward. So the ordinary things done really well, I think leads to extraordinary leadership and extraordinary impact as well.

Dolly:

I love that extraordinary impact. Haven't, haven't thought of tagging that on the end. How, um, what, how, you've just described it, there's an emphasis on people skills.

Kate:

Hmm.

Dolly:

To what extent do you feel that leadership is. Predominantly, uh, focused on, on the people skills and or what other things does it foc need to focus on?

Kate:

I think it's connection. So when I say people skills, yeah, it's understanding people. But that I, to be clear, that doesn't mean you need to be an extrovert. That doesn't mean you need to be, you know, really loud and shouty and then you'll get everybody excited and that's it. Job done. It is. Again, use this word attention and I think it, yeah, I think it's around that. I think it's around like really kind of paying attention, listening to everything and everyone around you.

Dolly:

It is because actually when you are. You're so right when you are listening to people around you and the soft skills. I always think that if you can have a really focus and, and foundation of being able to listen well, to do the soft skills well, then you're gonna be able to hear the transactional that need to be done

Kate:

You. Yeah, exactly.

Dolly:

than launching in needing all the transactional stuff of business straight away. If it's it you. You're gonna soup up your, your transactional spaces, aren't you? If you've got the social skills nailed.

Kate:

Yeah, but it's leaning into your own post personal social skills. So if you are more introverted, you're more of a reflective person, there's a huge amount of power in the fact that you probably naturally provide space for people, so they leave an interaction with you truly feeling heard. If you are naturally more gregarious, outgoing, actually you are that energy for an, you could be that energy for an individual. So it's also kind of leaning in. To what you naturally bring rather than trying to be everything. Absolutely. Hire a team around you so that everything's taken care of, but leaning into your strengths and, and that word connection as well. You know, I think people are, we are pack animals, aren't we? So we thrive off connection. Even though, don't get me wrong, I like my time out as well, and I'm an only child, so I definitely like my time out, but. That kind of connection with people just goes such a long way. And again, going back to your first question, that extraordinary connection sounds so ordinary, doesn't it? But actually that done really well, is extraordinary. And again, could have amazing impact.

Dolly:

I love that it's not a one size fits all thing.

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

so you are in charge of people and experience

Kate:

yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dolly:

do you your leaders identify who they are as leaders and do that well with good connection.

Kate:

Ask for feedback. It's like the best thing to, you know, you basically get the team to hold the mirror up, right? So where do they think they are? And actually where does the team think they are? We also use a tool in amea, called Insights Discovery. You might be familiar with it. It's a personality profiling tool. So, and that's not an exact science, and that doesn't mean it's the gospel, but it just, it's another tool in the toolbox to help people just create self-awareness. What we try and do here as well is have coaching and a coaching style of management and leadership. In the veins of the organization, so that that kind of openness, readiness, hunger for feedback is a continual thing. And then that's the way our leaders then grow and are able to then kind of help their teams grow as well.

Dolly:

I wanna get really granular on this

Kate:

Mm-hmm.

Dolly:

are these big words that we use in business that we all think we know what they mean and then we actually don't. So like for example, communication, everyone's like, oh yeah,

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

communication. What does that even mean? Right? But we all think we know what it means, but it's such a massive umbrella term. It's a bit like saying the galaxy, like, well,

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

we talking about? And I also think the word feedback is a little bit like one of those words that we've gotta get feedback. Yeah. Feedback's important. Can we just dive into what is feedback? What tools do you use? I, I just wanna set this up with, I work across sectors, across businesses in this space.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

some companies do their own feedback forms with six questions. Some people get 360 surveys that they're paying for and bring them in. Some people do, you know, there's PCS, there's, there's hundreds that you can buy. There's your own ones. You can do what, what is it that you use or that you have experienced as being a really effective actual tool for feedback? And the second question is, how do you get people to get really stuck in And repeat and repeat it?

Kate:

A dream state, and I'm not saying we're there yet, but a dream state. I often use sporting analogies, right? So a dream state would be the games happened. Okay, how was the game? How was my performance within the game? How did we perform as a team, as a game? And that just becomes part of the norm of people's interaction. You know, even just after a meeting, is that okay? Did you get what you needed out of it? Is there anything more you need from me? You know, just that really in every day, again, doing the ordinary world and just that everyday connection back and forth. Just seeking that out. But yes, in order to get to that dream state, you need kind of tools and education to help people get there, to make it normal. Because in the real world, we don't go home and say, you know, I didn't say to my husband, how was me un stacking the dishwasher? Was that okay for you? Shall I, you know, would you prefer I do the top and then the boss, it's, it, it doesn't, it's a bit weird, isn't it, when you're in the work environment and this feedback piece. So the tools that we have in place are, we have quarterly reviews. Which might feel a bit overkill for people, but what we're trying to do in that is really try and push that feedback and that kind canor way of interacting with three people as part of our DNA. And so I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been a heavy uplift to get people used to this kind of, okay, it's the quarter again, let's go, how's the quarter been? What we doing for next quarter? So we have that in place and obviously there's various training that underpins that to help people be able to have those conversations effectively, quickly, to the point. You know, and manage feedback in that way. So that's kind of our baseline tool that we use to help that interaction. And then obviously we do have things like as teams, we have wash up, like, how did we think that went? What could be better? That encourages kind of group feedback as well.

Dolly:

Interesting. So it, so it's as simple as, just having. Check in questions sometimes.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

you know, rather because when we say feedback, we're like, oh, was it, is it a big meaty one-to-one or is it a big this or a big that? Actually it's just this constant rhetoric that's in the, at the end of conversations, you

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

a washup.

Kate:

yeah,

Dolly:

how do we do what could have been better? The end of a project at the end of a, a sort of heavy sales season, let's say at the end of a quarter, at the end

Kate:

yeah,

Dolly:

to do it on any level. Okay.

Kate:

exactly. And in those one-to-ones, you know, it really is, again, there's little things, but it's like. What else do you need from me? Is there anything more you need from me? And going back to the point earlier on the kind of coaching style within the veins of the organizations, they are typically kind of more coaching style of questions that are open. You know, what more do you need from me? What else? When will we do that by? How will I know that I've delivered on what you needed me to? You know, those kind of pieces. And the more we get people used to talking like that, the easier life is.

Dolly:

So you said before it's been, you know, it's a dream state and, when you're not there yet, very humble. What you said it was heavy lifting. You know, it, it is hard, hard work to get people into this space. Can you just say a little bit about that? What's the resistance you've been up against and how have you overcome it?

Kate:

So the risk resistance we've been up against is moving from, you know, one performance review a year, which is kind of normal. Some companies do two to four and you, you know, the weeks come and go, don't they? When we're already almost in February. So suddenly you're like, well, it's review time again. And it's educating the business and helping them see, don't go into these quarterly check-ins, is what we really should be calling them. In fact, maybe I'll make a note to do that. But, um, these quarterly, these quarterly connections, even with the mindset of an annual review, because if you do that, then yeah, it's gonna feel heavy and it's like, whoa, here we go again. Where actually simply it is. Cool. We said we were gonna do this this quarter. How did we track, what do we wanna achieve next quarter? How are you doing? What more do you need from me? What more do you need from the business? And off we go again.

Dolly:

Yeah. It's actually so simple, right?

Kate:

exactly. Yeah. The ordinary done well, right? It's like just simple interactions and I guess just what we're trying to do here is get people just to show up as human beings interact with each other in a decent and human way, and fair with kindness, but kindness can also come in tougher feedback as well.

Dolly:

Mm-hmm.

Kate:

For, you know, so everybody can really enjoy what we do for the majority of the week and achieve great things really, again, sounds so simple, right?

Dolly:

it does. But this is something that we mention, we talked about before we came on live How do you, how do you sell this concept of feedback kind? Candid, we're gonna come back to that in a second. how do we sell that to people in business who are fast-paced, moving forward with massive, you know, goals and targets they've gotta hit? I, I. Who have maybe a mindset of, well, this is great, but it takes time away from crunching the profit. Right.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

and what's, what's the benefit for the bottom line?

Kate:

How do those individuals know? The team are clear. How do these individuals know the team are on board and not all kind of their cynicism and negativity going on behind because no real conversations are actually happening. So while that head of sales, let's call it. Might be like right off. We go on with no time to spare and we're work, work, work. How do they know the team's behind them and doing it in the right and best way possible? If actual real conversations aren't going on? And if we don't take the time to get to know people as humans and understand their whole self, we might not understand potential future barriers that might come up. And again, if we go back to that kind of sporting analogy of high performing sports teams, there's always an analysis on the game. There's, I mean, they have whole teams that are like data analysis on performance and the performance is discussed, and that's like if you take football, you know, premiership level. So how we are naive if we don't operate with at least a sprinkle of that.

Dolly:

I took up ballet a few years ago

Kate:

oh my God, amazing.

Dolly:

well, I,

Kate:

So cool.

Dolly:

Wow. It's so amazing. I mean, I'm terrible at ballet. I'm nearly six foot, so I'm far too tall for ballet. But I felt when I was doing it, I honestly thought. I'm pretty good at this. Look at me. I know what I'm doing. My core's pretty tat, you know, I was quite chopped. Then my ballet teacher went, let's do it in the proper ballet studio with the bar and the mirrors.

Kate:

Right. Like, oh

Dolly:

I looked at myself and went, good grief.

Kate:

yeah.

Dolly:

like, looked like a giraffe. I was all, I was so kind of wonky and, but that mirror. Was, I just think it's a great analogy for what we're talking about. That mirror is the constant feedback. I would look at one mirror, but then turn, and there's another one and another one. There's just so much reflection in that

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

to keep reminding me of, of where my leg isn't as straight as I think. I'm not looking quite as good as I feel. I

Kate:

Yep.

Dolly:

and I think as humans we often think we're doing better or worse than we think

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

I do an assessment with teams. It's a great one called Performance Climate Systems, and it's a really good one for team leaders and their team because it gives the leader a different result to what their team is saying. And you can see it often just for the leader's eyes

Kate:

No.

Dolly:

at. At various points of the survey, but it's really helpful tool to see where they think they are performing better than they are, but

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

their team think that they are performing way better than the leader realizes.

Kate:

yeah,

Dolly:

a, like that ballet analogy, right?

Kate:

And actually something really confronting isn't there about looking in the mirror and then think, but the thing is, with all this feedback and these conversations, et cetera, they are nothing without action attached to them. So.

Dolly:

well said.

Kate:

You know, they really aren't. And so then like to your point around, you know, the example you used with like the head of sales, it's like, we've got too much time, blah, blah, blah. I kind of get it if their experience has been, I've just found myself in these fluffy conversations and there's no action attached to it. So that's the game changer. And that's where with these calls to reviews, there should be actions and goals attached to it all the time so that things keep moving in the right direction. But the same goes back to, you know, if we think about. Our kind of how we started this conversation, that extraordinary leadership, and we talked around, you know, understanding the whole person. There's empathy attached to that. But empathy is also nothing without action attached to it as well if you're in business, right? Because you can be like, oh, you know, I'm sad for you. Cool. What am I gonna do about it? How are we moving the dial on this? And then that's where I firmly believe you get into high performing cultures that are happy.'cause that's also not always common. You can have high performing cultures that are unhappy as well.

Dolly:

That's really interesting. I haven't heard it put like that. Just say a little bit more. That's what's happiness got to do with high performance, do you think?

Kate:

I think then people are enjoying being there. So the numbers can say one thing. So okay, we're bringing in the business, but everybody hates being in here. You go into the toilets and everybody's whining and moaning, and actually the morale is at an all time low.

Dolly:

Yeah.

Kate:

Okay? You might still perform because all those people get really big bonuses, and that's kind of what they're living for. But actually, how much better could they show up if they actually enjoyed the environment they were in? It could go from great. To amazing and game changing and the things when human beings are in that positive state, that it's a lightness, right? Isn't it? And I'm sure you've, you know, we've all been in that state where I can take on the world anything's possible. So then you get a bunch of employees who think beyond the targets in hand to get their bonus or whatever it is, and they start to think what else they could be doing. How else could we make this even better? This? And they buy into it and they're more invested into it. So that's where the happiness, I think is really important.

Dolly:

it's amazing, isn't it? But these words, again, like happiness are trigger words in business or because they, that can often be, a sort of synonymous with Oh, nice to have like

Kate:

Hmm.

Dolly:

and beanbags and Coca-Cola fizzy, wizzy pot. Right. Similarly, you know, kindness and empathy. They can just be tagged on as a nice, a nice to have rather than an integral thing. do you think business now, that these conversations and these, the actions based on this stuff are so integral to modern business, whereas 50 years ago, I. There was no rhetoric over it.

Kate:

I mean, I don't have all the answers, but my observation is you.

Dolly:

Oh, oh. Why save Kate? Tell us all. No, no pressure.

Kate:

Right. Here we go. No, I think you know it, the workforce has changed. I mean, you can read any article on this. The workforce changed. The loyalty isn't there as it is before. People's values are far more front of mind than they were, you know, 50, 70 years ago, where they went in, they did their job, they got, they kept their head down, they got their money, they went home. Not everybody. And that's a sweeping generalization. But I'd say a far greater percentage operated like that with their work than they do now nowadays. It's like this place doesn't sit with me ethically, my values are being knocked. You know, there's a whole other bit of their own personal job description that needs to be met as well. So drops probably isn't even the right term for that. It's, it is engagement. And I think if you can have an engaged workforce by being empathetic, by understanding your people, and no, that doesn't mean. The fluffiness of like, oh, it's national polka.day. Let's all come in polka dots and bake cupcakes for no substance or reason at all. No, but actually taking a moment to listen to your employees, work with them on individuals and a team basis to get them being higher performers.'cause they're engaged and excited. Who knows what you could achieve. I think the thing with Vayner is we are run by an entrepreneur, right? So we've got this on, you are not working for this unnamed man, the man at the top that doesn't have a face, you know? Or a bunch of shareholders. He's very present and this entrepreneurial spirit that he leads with is one contagious and two present. Wherever you go, anything's possible. Let's give it a try. So that freedom is also quite captivating and then enhances engagement. I think

Dolly:

Wow. you know, I mean, I often think in metaphors and have a very kind of,

Kate:

I.

Dolly:

visual mind. talked before about happiness in business and what has that got to do with high performance? And you were saying you can be high performing and unhappy, if you were happy, the kind of growth and how far you could go and just hearing the contagiousness of your, of your top, top leader,

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

and how that sounds like a kind of. happy place to kind of work within where you've got freedom to try stuff out. almost reminds me of my. with me on this, my dog walk today.

Kate:

love dogs better.

Dolly:

bit like spring

Kate:

It did. It really did.

Dolly:

yesterday was a winter day and I was really struggling going, this is a hard winter for me.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

I'm finding it a tough one and it's heavy. It, there's no growth. It just feels a, there's an oppressiveness sometimes to a

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

and today, spring. the air, you know what it's like, you can hear it, you can smell it, you can kind of viscerally feel something

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

It's like, ah, there's growth in me. There's new life in me.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

suddenly am excited

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

about living and growing. Whereas yesterday lasso, and I wonder if, that's almost quite a fun analogy of these businesses we're

Kate:

that's exactly it. Because,

Dolly:

know, you are working in this space. Me too. We want to create spring businesses, not winter ones. Right.

Kate:

and the point is you still did the walk yesterday, but how much greater did you feel today? Right. And maybe you went a bit further, so maybe you didn't, maybe you did exactly the same walk exactly the same distance, but if you did,

Dolly:

but I came back feeling better today

Kate:

right? Yeah, yeah,

Dolly:

I just did it ordinary, carried on, doing the day job, doing

Kate:

yeah,

Dolly:

but yeah, it is, it is that, that thing of we want to create. that are full of life,

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

of growth, that are full of that sort of Springfield aren't, isn't it

Kate:

Yeah, exactly. It's so funny you mentioned that'cause I write to my team every Thursday, it's called Thursday Thoughts. It was meant to be a working title and it's just kind of stuck and I've done it since day one of working here and now it's a really lovely diary to look back on. But today being Thursday, I wrote to them exactly about what you just talked about, which is kind of this spring, like that slightly sweet smell that. And it, again, it's these little things that help you notice that it's in the air, you know? And so then when you think back to kind of the points we mentioned earlier, it is the little things, and actually if you pay attention to the little things, it can really like shift, shift mood, shift feeling, shift action,

Dolly:

It really can. But how does this connect with these other big words? I just want to touch upon

Kate:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dolly:

and experience. So let's start with experience,'cause that's your job title, a part of your job title, head of people and experience. What does that even mean and how is there a job title around that?

Kate:

Well, I think, you know, I think the irony of HR traditionally is that there are millions of different job titles under the HR umbrella. And the irony is for the function that actually helped design job titles. You know, there's a lot. So, and it, and HR really has gone through an evolution, hasn't it? It was kind of office manager at one point to personnel. So I think there was hr, then talent was the buzzword. And here we are with people experience at Vayner and. I really believe in it because it's not about, we have people operations as well, to be clear. So the kind of, you know, the more nuts and bolts of, I guess traditional hr, the processes, the policies, you know, international mobility, those kind of things. Family set under the operations side of it, payroll, everything. That's super important, the structure, but the experience side of it is. Comes hand, it's the yang and the yang, but together it's a force. So the experience side is everything we've really talked about. And you know, it's paying attention to employees, making sure that in terms of their day-to-day work experience, actually this is the best chapter of their career. And how do we make that possible? And even if this wasn't the right place for them and they don't like it and they wanted to leave, it was the wrong move for them. We ensure that that bit was the best it could have possibly been, even if it doesn't work out. So the experience, whether it's a positive conversation, a constructive conversation, is the best it possibly can be with human and empathy at the heart of it in everything that we do.

Dolly:

So I love that and, but I want to play devil's advocate,

Kate:

Go for it.

Dolly:

and by the way, I'm completely signed up. Just go to that. Go to that saying that I, people are at the heart of everything. People are precious and important,

Kate:

Yes.

Dolly:

it. However, I'm going to poke back with a little debate and say, that's quite lovely and idealistic in the space of business

Kate:

Mm-hmm.

Dolly:

Actually when I, I've worked really in the nuts and bolts of budgets and stuff with some businesses, and it's so inconvenient financially to let people go and have to re-recruit. Like it isn't business sense. And obviously I coach people oftentimes, and sometimes I coach them out of a job, you know,

Kate:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dolly:

of the course, that's fine. But if I'm running the business, it wouldn't suit me to have to go through more recruitment And pay money for, for that process and another person, and an onboarding and retraining. So how can we reconcile that rather utopian view, which I share with you that people are precious and important, and we want them to have the best time here, even if it means leaving with also being business acumen, being savvy and going, this actually doesn't suit our bottom line.

Kate:

With, we have competencies, but you know, and accountability is one of them. So clear roles, responsibilities goes back to those quarterly reviews so people know where they stand, how they're doing. So if actually they might be the loveliest, kindest person, but their performance isn't there. They're absolutely merited and shouted about for their lovely kindness, which we place importance on be a good egg, essentially in the workplace. However, the role that we're in, it's not quite working, but what we will do is not just be like, right, that's it, out the door. We will then think, huh? Is it,'cause actually they're in creative, but they'd be a far better strategist. Let's have a play with that, but not make something up or make up roles for the sake of it. Just let's sit with that for a minute before we judge to jump to judgments or conclusions or anything. And so when it comes back to that experience fight, it's just making sure that we've done the best job we can do as a business to make sure that all avenues have been considered, but never losing sight. At the bottom line there is, uh, Gary talks about honey and empire. And that's kind of where we place energy here.'cause the honey is everything you've just described in the experience. The empire is we have a business to run as well and it's making sure the two are balanced and that we're being reasonable across the board because the moment you are led too much by the business, the honey suffers and vice versa. So it's making sure that those are in balance as well. It's good, isn't it? I wish I could say it was mine, but it's not.

Dolly:

I know. And I wanna go nick it now and be like, honey and the EM empire, it's brilliant. It really makes sense. But you, you can't, one will suffer without the other. Absolutely. You've

Kate:

yeah.

Dolly:

the EM empire with the honey,

Kate:

Yep.

Dolly:

the EM empire, there's no point in having the honey is there?

Kate:

Exactly that.

Dolly:

No. um. I wanna go back to this, concept of, um, kind candor.

Kate:

Yep.

Dolly:

Now lots of people will have heard of

Kate:

Okay.

Dolly:

candor,

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

but explain to me what, from your perspective, what kind candor is and why it's got an important place with you.

Kate:

I mean, it is kind of what it says in the tin. So it is, you can absolutely be candorous and direct with people, but there's always a kind way to do that. So we do quite a lot of training around how you go about doing that. And you know, it's not, it is not fluffing around, it's not beating around the bush. It's saying things how they are, but really expressing the impact. So if you are giving somebody really direct feedback, you're not just saying you're really rude. Hey. I found in that meeting, you came across a bit like this, this, this, and this example. The impact I could feel had on the rest of the people was I could see them physically recoil, and I noticed most of them just didn't say anything for the rest of the meeting. How can I help you with this? You know, it's, it's that, and so there's a kindness within the candor.

Dolly:

Yeah. I, um, I'm in a little plug now, but with, I have a book.

Kate:

Plug, plug, plug. Congratulations. Ballet dancer, and a writer.

Dolly:

Oh my gosh, it's all happening. Dolly. I wrote my book whilst doing a, a delea,

Kate:

Yeah, just,

Dolly:

but no, in my book, which is located just here. There's, um, it's about 12 tactics on how to add extra into your ordinary. And one of the tactics is about feedback, and I've got this concept of the lob, the loiter, and the lasso,

Kate:

Mm-hmm.

Dolly:

thing of, often we think feedback is just saying it, but that's just like lobbing a ball and

Kate:

Yeah. Yeah,

Dolly:

about it other than you've just said your piece and you are not connected to it. It's like a smash or just, just, I've just lobb it and hopefully it'll land in the right place. So we don't want that. The other one is the loiter,

Kate:

yeah.

Dolly:

someone's loitering in a corridor, it's kind of like, what are you doing? You are a

Kate:

Yeah. Well, I want to say something, but it's just being a bit shifty.

Dolly:

look, yeah, they just look shady. It's so you, you don't wanna be a loiter when we're giving

Kate:

Yeah, no,

Dolly:

be dancing and sort of hovering around

Kate:

yeah.

Dolly:

And then the lasso is this concept of when a cow. Person, cowboy or cowgirl,

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

wanting to lasso a bull. They have to first do a few things. They have to pace at the same speed as the cow, with their horse. So there's an element of that empathy, of like actually understanding the narrative of the, of the. Bull, the person you want to lasso with some feedback.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

you've got to speed, there's a sense with the lasso of spinning it round and really knowing where you want to be precise.

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

where you just shared the behavior that you've observed

Kate:

yeah.

Dolly:

let's say. Like it's being really specific with what we're going to land on

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

Then there's a point of contact of saying it. Lassoing, the bull, but then holding onto it

Kate:

Yeah. Not just like, okay, bye.

Dolly:

Exactly. There's a sense of both the tethered

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

line

Kate:

yeah,

Dolly:

until we've ground to a halt and then, and we've caught the concept

Kate:

yeah, yeah.

Dolly:

but it's that, isn't it? And I think oftentimes we're so scared to give candor that we might lobb it

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

you know, there's a lot of triggers around. direct.

Kate:

Yes. And there's sit, I love that the, the kind of the lassoing and holding it because actually sitting with it, even if, if you're the one giving it, it's sitting with it and really looking at the whole person. How's it been taken? Have they just done this? In which case talk about it. I noticed as I just said that you did this. Can we talk about that a little bit? And then also with the action at the end, you know, how can I help you? And not being patronizing within that at all, like, you know, but how can I lean in rather than just, just chucking it at you? How can I help you next time we're in that situation?

Dolly:

It's funny though'cause I think oftentimes some people listening to this bit of the conversation may think it sounds a bit deep and therapy like, and actually it, Don't wanna assume, but I'm not saying that. And I'm sure you're not either. It's

Kate:

No.

Dolly:

light touch, isn't it? It's

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

this is normal life. This

Kate:

yeah.

Dolly:

this is just how it's done.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

How, I'd love to know how you train people. So if anyone's listening, thinking I'd really like to get my, my people more comfortable and familiar with this type of kind, candor, lasso feedback, what would be your kind of. 2, 3 steps from your experience of getting to be more comfortable with it

Kate:

Ask for feedback on how they give feedback. Is like a really good place to start. I did that first and like years ago and it was absolutely terrifying. I'm a people person. Right, so you assume you give feedback nicely and well, and it's always done with kindness and actually I think I was probably more of a, what did you call it? A lingerer like Yeah, I get the sense, I think the feedback at the time was like, I get the sense when you've got something really punchy to say, you're kind of there and sometimes you think you've said it and you haven't. And Oh God, that hurt. You know, like, oh wow, okay. But actually going there first, you then recognize how you're naturally coming across. So then you recognize where's the work? And then you can lean into that part and how you, so your point about ballet, right? That's surrounding yourself with mirrors, right? And then you're just like, well, okay, super confronting, but it's absolutely gonna lead to better things and greater things.

Dolly:

so if any leaders listening, actually a first question they could do is ask their teams

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

how am I giving feedback

Kate:

yeah. Be really real with me and honest. How am I, or if they have a system in place, you know, where they have review systems actually saying to their manager or leader, you know, in my next round, could you actually really probe my team on how I give feedback. It's an area I'd like to know how, whether I'm hitting the mark or not.

Dolly:

just getting an audit of how you come across with

Kate:

Yeah, otherwise, it's your assumption, isn't it? Otherwise you are like, oh, I'm pretty good at landing it. I probably just need to finesse how I close it. That could be totally off, totally off.

Dolly:

because actually some, something I do with teams, which now if anyone's listening and I work with them, they'll all be like, yeah, we heard that on the podcast. But it's something I do often when I'm talking about difficult conversations, conflict feedback. I put a big piece of, sticky tape on the floor. As a spectrum, and I go this end of the, of the tape is I love being direct and giving feedback. I, I'm really happy with conflict. It's my comfy place and this end of the tape. I hate it. I don't want it, I don't like it. I try and avoid it. Just stand on the chart wherever you think you

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

Yeah. And it's really, really funny because I see certain individuals marching down to the kind of conflict end going, yes, I like it. I love it. um, and I'm like, that's interesting. And then I see others going, oh, I'm just not sure. And Ling down there and the people at this end always look a little bit like I just got an A star. And then wait. I blow them up and I go, wow. no matter where you are on this scale, so you know, it's got absolutely nothing to do with whether you are effective at it

Kate:

Right, right. Yeah. I was just gonna say exactly that and often the people that think they're really good at it aren't necessarily the ones that either enjoy it as well. There's that enjoyment. Like I actually, I'm in my comfort zone when I give feedback. Yeah. Not that good at it though. I've had a few examples of managers that. I am sure you've heard this as well. I've told them a, I've given this feedback so many times now and at the end, and we have a phrase here that I really love, which is point thumbs, not fingers. So it's like, let's look here first before we do that. And that is exactly that, right? It's like, cool, well then you need to change your communication style.'cause clearly something's not landing thumbs right, rather than fingers of it's the fault they're not listening.

Dolly:

I realized that I've always thought I'm very good at feedback because I love giving it, I love being direct and assertive, so it's a

Kate:

Hmm.

Dolly:

space. But then I realized. I'm a bit too bullish help. That was my feedback. And

Kate:

Yeah. Right.

Dolly:

oh, and I realized the direct link between loving it and being comfortable with my version of being direct and feedback, actually thumbs wasn't landing, so I needed to learn different ways. So it's

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

a stretch point, right.

Kate:

Yeah, exactly. And there's always stuff to be learned within feedback.'cause I remember I learned at some point, you know, once you actually understand the person you're giving feedback to, so if it's a direct report, you can also put things on the table. Like I know as I say this, and I would imagine having worked with you for a year in your head as this narrative, say if I'm wrong, so you can kind of appease things that. And again, it just builds on those relationships. The little things again, it's like, wow, I really feel seen and heard and understood. Therefore, I'm gonna be more susceptible to this feedback as well.

Dolly:

It's that thing of pacing with the bull, isn't it?

Kate:

Yes, exactly.

Dolly:

story and understanding their personality type and their experience.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

Kate, as we come into land, what is the item from home you may or may not have brought but can tell us about, that exemplifies extraordinary leadership to you?

Kate:

Yeah, I didn't bring, I'm probably good'cause they always give me splinters. You know, when you have a fire, like we've got a log burner at home and you get the kindling within that. And I think the kindling, not the log is what an extraordinary leader is because being an extraordinary leader and certainly what. I'm not saying I'm an extraordinary leader, just for the record, but what gives me the kicks in my role is being the kindling in somebody else's fire. It's really, it can fiz, but with that kindling, it suddenly does that lovely raw thing and ignite. So for me, and again, you don't always notice the kindling either, so it's the little thing and that fire that actually just helps it go.

Dolly:

Do you know, I just, I love anecdotes like that because for anyone listening as a leader and just, I'm just thinking of myself as a leader with my

Kate:

Hmm.

Dolly:

even it's, it's not about being the log and carrying the burden of it all. It's about spotting those moments, isn't it? Where you can just add.

Kate:

Yeah,

Dolly:

Add to, to

Kate:

yeah,

Dolly:

else get their log really burning

Kate:

yeah. Thanks. I've seen that.

Dolly:

project or the team or the, the initiative that's going on.

Kate:

Yeah.

Dolly:

Kate, it has been so fun chatting. I love how our conversation has gone so much into feedback

Kate:

Yeah. I love it.

Dolly:

and, um, yeah, just, it sounds like a really fun place, to be working and exploring this spring ecosystem we

Kate:

Yeah, exactly. I'll bring on spring.

Dolly:

Yeah. But thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been lovely to have you.

Kate:

No, thank you so much. It's been such a joy. My cheeks hurt from the laughter as well, and so much luck with your ballet. That's incredible. No, I love it.

Dolly:

Yeah, you'll see me in Swan Lake soon.

Kate:

Okay. Can't wait. Thank you so much, Dolly.

Dolly:

Thanks.

Kate:

Take care.

Dolly:

I really love that analogy of the kindling as a leader because it pulls us into such a humble state. It's not all about us being the main log, the main event with all the main ideas and responsibilities. It's much more manageable, it's easier, and I love the easier way of just being the kindling to go to draw alongside other people and catch them on fire so that they can be the main event and we are just adding to it. And that is all about being extra to the ordinary.