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Chris Sonnabend - Military Innovation and Geopolitical Challenges in the Indo-Pacific - Part 1
What happens when military innovation meets the strategic prowess of a rising superpower? Our latest episode features expert guest Sonny, who unpacks the rapid evolution of military technology and its implications for global security, focusing on the People's Republic of China's cutting-edge approach. Through Sonny's insights, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of China's systems-based warfare, a strategy that challenges existing technological warfare paradigms and underscores the need for increased awareness and preparedness among global leaders, particularly in the U.S.
Leadership in the military is undergoing a transformation as technology advances and generational gaps become more pronounced. Our discussion delves into the necessity for military leaders to adapt their training techniques to cater to the analytical and digital nature of the younger generation. Sonny highlights the importance of bridging these generational divides, striking a balance between personal connections with team members and maintaining the authority required to lead effectively. This conversation emphasizes the critical investment in both people and technology to ensure mission success in an increasingly complex operational landscape.
The episode also shines a light on the potential and pitfalls of artificial intelligence in modern military strategies. Sonny provides a perspective on how AI can revolutionize intelligence sharing and operational efficiency but warns against the dangers of over-reliance on these technologies. With AI's growing role, it becomes imperative to maintain human oversight and proficiency to prevent complacency. By equipping military personnel with the right policies and education, we explore how AI can be harnessed as a powerful tool to enhance human effort, ensuring that it complements rather than replaces critical human decision-making processes.
so, uh, again, sunny, before we go, I do have to mention this camera. Make sure you know this. These are the opinions of sunny. They are not the opinions or anything that have to do with the US government or the Department of Defense, so that is a disclaimer. This is not to throw Sonny under the bus or have him get in trouble. So with that, sonny, how are you doing today? I'm doing great, man. How are you doing? I'm doing awesome man. I'm happy to have you here, man, I think we have some good questions for you. Yeah, probably some fucked up questions, I don't know. We'll see what goes on with it. But first I just the first thing I want to go over is just basic stuff with innovation and technologies. I know you guys just got off of the hump of doing that big, huge tech conference. What was that thing called?
Speaker 2:TechNet FC. Yeah, it was TechNet Hawaii.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this actually works perfect, man, because there's a lot of different things that I think you have a good macro and micro vision of it, and to talk about where we're moving in the future, what you see problems, as so on and so forth. So, with that, I'm going to go ahead and ask you the first question, dude, and we're going to get rolling with this. So the first one, and pardon me because I have to read this off the paper, because my brain is not big enough to memorize all these questions, so we're just going to go with this Number one how do you see technology influencing the future of military operations, especially in areas like the intelligence?
Speaker 2:and defense. So there's a few areas that this could go as I was thinking about it, and there's also an area of caution with the amount of technology that we're bringing into the battlefield. So a lot of my answers are going to have to do with what our nation's biggest threats are that are outlined in our national defense strategies. Right, and right now. I mean they say them clearly. It's unclassified document, it's China, it's Russia, it's North Korea, it's Iran. Out of those four, three of them exist in the theater that I have to advise in, so it's an everyday thing.
Speaker 2:So when the PRC, the People's Republic of China, started modernizing, that's really when the PRC, the People's Republic of China, started modernizing. That's really when the unipolar moment stopped, right? So the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, up until about the mid 2000s, the US was the only superpower in existence. So therefore, you didn't have to modernize your military to hedge against a threat. That's equivalent, right, and you know that from our background, right? The people that we were fighting were not in any way equivalent to what we were and we had every advantage possible, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So now that that's changing technology is a huge thing. So what the PRC realized is they, and it's in their doctrine that they put out they have a systems-based warfare, and it's in their doctrine that they put out they have a systems-based warfare. So you know, in old military schools they'll teach you that you analyze the enemy's critical vulnerabilities in their center of gravity and you attack those where they're weakest. In the past, with Napoleon, that might've been artillery, right, he was an artillery guy, he used it well, so his critical vulnerability would be if you attack that. The way the PRC sees it is, they have to attack the systems that we'll use to fight in a highly technological environment. So the things that find, the things that shoot, the things that control, they go after those and sometimes that could be kinetically as far as destroying an actual facility, and sometimes it could be in the cyberspace, right.
Speaker 1:So, sonny, I don't mean to interrupt you on this, but, but you just brought up a, a, um, a question that I think all of america needs to know, and I think you probably have an answer for it. You know along those lines of how they are preparing from that optic of their attacking the systems. Um, how long have they been preparing for this, how long have they been doing this and like, how long have they infiltrated this type of stuff?
Speaker 2:so they've had the opportunity they uh mal mao zedong has in his doctrine to sit back and wait and bide your time and and don't make noise and observe. And they've had the privilege of watching how we fight for two decades, yeah. And then what they started to realize from that is standoff is good, so that you know if they could keep us out of their areas with you know, precision fire munitions that go far hypersonics, we won't want to have our aircraft carriers there and our airplanes and things like that. So they've been observing it and modernizing very fast because they don't have the same bureaucracy that we do. It's a good thing to be Americans and have the checks that we have, but with military modernization it's also good to be an authoritarian government because of how fast they can develop.
Speaker 1:I just don't think that most of america realizes that, like, because everyone lives in a bubble. Like, um, if you act, if you ask anybody around here in loudon county, um, you know about china and what you just said, right, they would have no clue about that. What they would know, like, oh, yeah, they suck, but they don't know the true.
Speaker 1:Like okay, yes, it's an adversary, a geopolitical adversary, but they actually don't suck they're actually pretty fucking good yeah yeah and um, they don't understand that, that part of it of of um, you know how they, what their, their course of action is and has been for years and how they've infiltrated stuff and this and the other. So but I didn't mean to interrupt you in that first question. Do you have anything else?
Speaker 2:A few things and also, just to you know, pivot off of what you're saying there, we absolutely and I say this often, I post about it on my social media we need to raise the national discourse on the conversations that we're having. So what the PRC does is they call it salami slicing, we call it salami slicing, so they'll push the boundaries.
Speaker 1:Egg roll slicing Egg roll slicing.
Speaker 2:They will, they will, they will push the boundaries of what's appropriate till they see that we and our friends won't tolerate it and they'll back up slightly, but not much. Yeah, so it's. You know, they're raising the noise floor, essentially, and they'll wait till that becomes the accepted norm, and then they'll do it again, and then they'll wait till we can't tolerate it and then they'll step back. You see it in the Philippines. That's where it's happening a lot.
Speaker 2:Totally, the uh, that's red, you're recording so, to go back to the motives, though, that we have to understand, uh, so, coming out of world war ii, we had the most powerful military and, more specifically, the most powerful navy, and we were the first I won't call it an empire, but in history to use its powerful navy to secure the world so everybody could prosper. Yeah, in the past, the French roots all that shit man the French and the British used it to dominate their neighbors. We used a powerful Navy to make everybody better. Yep, what came out of that is an international rules based order. What the PRC would like to do is replace that international order with one that's ran by power, and them being the power. So, as they're put in this little pressure campaign out there against our friends and against us, and then slightly backing up till it becomes accepted, their whole objective in the background is to disrupt the international order that we secure and makes everybody prosper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know what? I have a question. I don't. I don't know if it's one of the ones, it is, it's perfect. It's going to be about bricks, because I don't. I just I am 100% confident that I could walk out in this hallway here, from this studio and ask someone if they know what the bricks, what bricks is, and no one knows the barracks. They don't even know what barracks are, I mean. But seriously, america doesn't understand how that will, how that is affecting us and how it's going to affect us. And we'll get to that here in a minute. But I'm going to move on to the second question here, if you don't mind, unless you have anything else to add, with that one.
Speaker 2:Well, just as far as technology changing the battlefield, the not disclaimer, but the caution that I would have is, as it becomes a more technological fight, we have to make sure that that doesn't replace our human values. So at what point does empathy for what happens in the battlefield come out of the mind of decision makers? Because we can't actually see the impacts that we're having.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know what you just kind of you brought up. Did I send you that video with the, with the CEO? You did yeah, from Andrel, right. And the only reason why that comes to mind right now is I think that when you when big military industrial complex which I am largely against, I'll state it, I fucking hate it when you have that I think that's where a lot of problems arise.
Speaker 1:And what the CEO of Andral was saying is like this is the time for the little guy, because we have to get that innovation in there and it's not charging someone for some bullshit cable for $300. It's people are going to get their money's worth and it's going to be innovative and you know they're not going to be relying on you know what the bottom line is to pay their executives. And I think that just goes into the whole thing that we're talking about right now, because that is part of this innovation and technology is these smaller companies that have great ideas and stuff. Man, people have to find a way to make them successful, because that's how we all become successful with this. We have to do it All right.
Speaker 1:So we're going to move on to the next question man and um, that was a good answer, man. That was you edgy. You edumacated me as, as you've done over the years. Um, what role does innovation play in today's military, and how do you foster a culture of innovation within such a structured organization? I think that's a dude. Whatever your reply is, I've got many more follow-on questions.
Speaker 2:So, uh, when I was a few assignments ago, I was a battalion operations chief, so that the senior person within the discipline of what that battalion does, the unit it was about 1,000 people were in it and it was very technology-focused, and we used to put on this exercise that we called Corvistan and it was basically we would create a sandbox with an environment and we would put the Marines and the teams in it and we would say don't focus on the doctrine and what you've been taught, focusing on accomplishing this.
Speaker 2:And what that would do is it would foster the innovation that's inside of them, and what I've learned is innovation comes closest to the bayonet and not from the C-suite. Yes, so you have to put these people in a position where they can think outside the box They've been touching these devices longer than you and I have where they could think outside the box. They've been touching these devices longer than you and I have. I think when I first met you, we were still using payphones and calling cards from when we were going to schools, right, and remember the payphone booths, and we didn't have these in our pockets. So it's not the Master Guns and the Admiral that are going to innovate, it's going to be the teams and the people out there.
Speaker 1:It's those guys that are down below, and all the questions that I have about this because I I mean not being involved in the us government and in military now um, I see leadership struggles because of the generations and and I'm not saying that the generations are that are coming behind everybody or shit I just think that, um, you know, there's that old saying of you know someone is that these people are going to fight hard because they have nothing. They're going to provide for someone, and then those people are going to do nothing, and then the whole cycle is going to go round and round and around and around to provide for someone, and then those people are going to do nothing, and then the whole cycle is going to go round and round and around and around to provide Right. And I think we're in that spot right now. I think the generations even like with my son, you know, I find myself every night questioning myself like damn it, I got to be harder on him, I got to be harder on this little guy because this isn't making him successful in the world later.
Speaker 1:And I wonder, like, are you seeing that translate in the military now? And if it's a bad thing, how do we change it? Like, how do we change that type of culture? Because you know as well as I do, innovation comes through failure. Everyone has a great idea. They, they, they struggle to do it. They fail. The people that are successful keep on failing, keep on failing, then bam, in today's culture, with these other generations, I don't see that. I see failure is like man I fail and then they're fucking done. Um, I don't see that. I see failure is like man I failed and then they're fucking done. I don't know if that's playing out in the military now. I hope it's not, but I see that you know that that is in the general public. You know failure is is an easy thing to get by now and it's like man. That's, that's horrible. I hope this isn't how we're we're operating in the military.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think it is, and what the seniors in the military will fail if they don't realize early is there is a generational divide, so you have to put away how you learned and how you dealt with things and understand how they learn and how they deal with things to create the environment. An example is when you and I came up in the military, it was often said do it because I said so or do it because that's the way that was done. What I've noticed with the generation that we're leading now in the military and I've said it before when I talked to you is arguably the most lethal generation I've seen. They have so much access to information. You have to explain the why to them on everything and for. For old folks like us, that could get frustrating, but there's no way around it. It's how they consume information. You have to explain why.
Speaker 1:So my argument is and I'm not disagreeing, it's, it's my. You know my curiousness about this because you've been through, you've seen the generational changes right, and you're still in. You're going to remain to be in. You've seen from the top down, yeah, and I feel like you know the way they treat, the way we were trained in the Marine Corps is, it doesn't matter, charge that fucking machine gun bunker and if you have someone asking why, it's when they ask why, yeah.
Speaker 2:So if you explain to them in their training and while you're developing them, this is why we do those things. This is why we have See, that's a a dude, that's the answer I'm looking for.
Speaker 1:So what you're getting to is like our training has to be more developed, more educational oh yeah, I know I have a.
Speaker 2:I know there's probably a future question on that and, uh, that's a huge role in what I do now is how do how do we develop training for a joint force that will fight a highly sophisticated, almost pure military?
Speaker 1:yeah, dude, that that's uh, that's an important thing, man. Um, like, when I was after I had gotten out, I was, as you know I mean we've been in contact as if I never got out. I was training guys and I noticed a drop off of the level of operator, and it was. It was frustrating to me and it made me not want to train people. I was like man, why, like, why are they asking, why me not want to train people? I was like man, why, like, why are they asking why just I'm teaching you to fail? Because failure is going to provide you an option to, to, to come up with a solution, to do the right way. And there was resistance with that and I just never. I couldn't understand why. But now you know, what you're telling me is um, okay, they are going to ask that you have to have, you have to explain that in the front end of all this. Yes, yeah, and it's just a different way of doing it, and leaders have to be more prepared.
Speaker 2:Yep, and if you don't, if you don't identify that generational difference, you'll fail every time. That's right, okay.
Speaker 1:Dude, that. That I mean honestly, man. We haven't talked about this personally. Um, but that answers a lot of fear that I've had. Like I'm, I'm just in the back of my head. I'm like these motherfuckers are going to fuck us.
Speaker 2:But you know they'll, they'll take care of the mission.
Speaker 1:Um, so we're going to go on to the next question, but before we do, we're going to take a pause from it because I have to get my glasses. Oh, this is so much better. I can see. How does it look. Do I look smart? Are you needing some Riz?
Speaker 1:Talking trash about the older generation. My son does Riz. He calls himself the Rizzler. The Rizzler, yes, the Rizzler. Here we are, okay. So number three, sonny what are some key leadership skills that have helped you to navigate both operational and tech-driven sides of the military? I think this is a great question, man, because we had just discussed. You have come across the generational divide, you've grown up in it and you have seen everything from our generation to now and the challenges, and I think that this is a great question for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a great leadership thing that I see is preparation with, with the new generation, because they're so analytical. You really can't fake it till you make it. You have to spend the time and you have to dedicate yourself to understanding what you're talking about, cause remember, back in the day you could see through some people you know and you have to dedicate yourself to understanding what you're talking about, because remember, back in the day you could see through some people you know and you could, you could hide behind a reputation, but nowadays that's that's completely gone and especially in such a tech driven environment, you really have to your free time and what you consume is no longer turn your brain off things. If you're in levels of leadership, because you have to catch up, you have to fill that gap.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you, this man along that, along those lines. So before even I ran across this two days ago, what I'm about to say, before there was always the stigma and rules that you cannot, um fraternize in a way with the, the younger crowd, um to in any way really um with with the lower rank or and in in the corporate world and commercial world. I see that I just saw it the other day at a manager of a restaurant Um, now you can't do that, you're the manager. Other day at a manager of a restaurant Now you can't do that, you're the manager, you can't go to that person's birthday party. What is, is that philosophy changing in the military where it's like, look, you can't go out and get just fucking shit house and do stupid shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you have to get to know your people in this new way that we're doing things. If you don't, we. But you have to get to know your people in this new way that we're doing things. If you don't, we will not succeed. Is that happening?
Speaker 2:It is happening, but it could happen faster. In my mind there's still some I don't want to say dinosaurs, but people that look at it the old way. I'll tell you this Anybody that's ever worked for me. You and I grew up in a team environment and you have to foster that that you're. You know people that are going to listen to what you say, even when it's hard, are going to do it if they know that you love them. That's right.
Speaker 1:You know, a hundred percent, dude, that's that is. That goes back to the why thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's. I mean anybody that's ever worked for me I've been close to, but there was never any doubt who was in charge. It didn't change that and I think that's the fear that some of the old thinking would have is that if I get close to you and you know that I love you, you'll stop listening.
Speaker 1:And it's actually the opposite. I know that you agree with this, so it's not that I will argue with you on this, because I know you agree, but it is. Sometimes you have to implement the old way of grabbing someone by the collar and be like and reestablishing like. Look man, I may. You may have thought I was being your best friend, but guess what? I'm being your leader and I'm still your leader, and grabbing him by the collar.
Speaker 2:It's a great selection tool, right. If somebody can't exist in that environment, they don't deserve to be in that environment.
Speaker 1:That's right I agree with that. Uh, dude, those were great answers. Man, all right, we're, we're gonna, uh, we're gonna skip to number four now, man, um, I gotta put the old man glasses on again. I mean, kia, do I, do I look good with glasses, am?
Speaker 2:I sexy. You look like a Jack buddy Holly.
Speaker 1:Wait, that motherfucker died on an airplane.
Speaker 2:All right, here we go. It's good You're on the no fly list. Oh fuck.
Speaker 1:All right as a leader, how do you approach training service members to work with complex technologies? Like what is the approach that? How we learned was through failure. We talked about this is we throw technology and we say you know what? Here's the manual, learn it, go If you fail. Whatever fail is going to make you better. Is there a different method now?
Speaker 2:There is. So I was actually really excited about this question when I saw it on the pre-read, because it's a lot of what I have to do now. Investment, investment in the people is the exact thing. So a big thing that I have to remind some seniors about is we put a lot of money into things and into technology. We need to take that same amount of value and put it into our people for training and give them the schools that they need and the things that they need to do, so that technology and I often say this whenever Dude the thing- is is.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's always been our philosophy.
Speaker 2:It has. It's just not a grand philosophy.
Speaker 1:It's not, it's not all the way out there. It's a team philosophy.
Speaker 2:It's a small okay, and a caution that I would have is when, when we look at money and how the defense department spends, we can't just make it about equipment, right? One of the soft truths, right, as people are more important than hardware. It's right up here, dude Yep, yeah. So, and, and what I often say when I get asked this question and I have to remind people, don't forget to focus on the people. So, as of right now, 82% of the US military is enlisted. That's a crazy number, right? So we often say that the NCO and petty officer are the backbone of what we do, but if you consider that math through the heart and soul, yeah, yeah, 100% dude, wow, 82%, 82%.
Speaker 2:Damn man and soul. Yeah, yeah, 100 dude. Wow, 82, 82, damn. But yet we spend most of our money on the 18 yeah, why is that? It's because it's written in the law, so goldwater nickels puts in there that commissioned officers have congressional funding for advanced level schools there's. It would have to be in an NDAA or something I'd imagine, to where the and they're getting better about it.
Speaker 2:The military is getting better, but all the educational opportunities that they get advanced education opportunities that they give enlisted is to progress them into becoming the 18% and not making them a better part of the 82%.
Speaker 1:I feel like you know that topic itself and like, like you said, it's getting better and leaders like you have identified it. I'm sure there's lots of people that you know that I've identified that, uh, because you guys all work in circles, but I feel like that is something that is from like the 1700s, where enlisted guys didn't get training because they couldn't read, or something like legitimately yeah, you know what I mean. I feel like that's such an outdated thing, because now I mean you don't have to have a degree and you could be smart as fuck because you go to some kind of technical school to learn how to do computer coding or whatever and you're a genius. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you wipe your ass differently, and I feel like that's what the old role was.
Speaker 2:It is and that divide is not there so much anymore. That's good. When I was running that battalion and I do it. When I speak at the NCO academies, one thing I ask them is and these are corporals, people that have been maybe two, three years in the Marine Corps I'll say raise your hand if you have an undergraduate degree. And the majority of the room will raise their hand. So that's the like minimum line for the commissioning right, and these younger generation just chose a different route and we definitely need to do better about how we find money.
Speaker 1:I'm curious, and I'm sure you've either done it and, if you haven't, it'd be cool if you did go and observe it, because I know, like you know, the Minx was enlisted one officer, a lot of our friends were enlisted one officer, and I hear the same thing from all of them of what they brainwashed the officers and the thinking about enlisted and I'm wondering if that's changing.
Speaker 2:That is changing. But you also need to watch out. The Mustangs are great but they also have a critical. Fault is because they were enlisted Sometime. They don't listen to senior enlisted because they feel, oh, I was already that, so I know better. And you know, I feel like I'm throwing a little bit of shade on the officers. The officers that I work with are very high caliber. The best ones that I see have a great relationship with their senior enlist. They have to yes.
Speaker 2:What the Marine Corps does great and I, when I got to speak to some of the Marine selects at the Naval Academy with my last boss, one of the things that I explained to him is don't worry, even as a second lieutenant, we're not going to let you fail right. As a second lieutenant, your first assignment is going to be with a platoon. You'll lead 30 people. You will get given a gunny right and that person has probably been in, I mean, you were a platoon sergeant right, so you had an officer who most of them now are colonels and lieutenant colonels that you advised. But that relationship is key to developing them to become the general that we want one day.
Speaker 1:And it's key. So even in the civilian sector, the same thing applies, right? A really good example is Kia's husband Chef Joshua Howard. Right, he's an executive sous chef, his executive chef, and they're one of the top restaurant. They are doing just things that are absolutely amazing. Right, it's called the Farm at Patamac. Right, the Restaurant at Patamack, and it's a very exclusive thing. But the executive chef there is 30 years old and they're probably going to get a Michelin star, josh. He's young, but the executive chef treats Josh and mentors Josh as if he wants him to get that star somewhere else later.
Speaker 1:And if you go to any tech company and you have a CEO who's fostering people underneath them, I want you to learn how to be a CEO. And you be a CEO of a country or of a company. I feel like it's the same kind of thing where you've got officer enlisted. It's like man, you want these guys to be successful and run with things, because it's just going to make everybody successful and it just it's an overlap, right, it's an overlap of the whole thing.
Speaker 1:And then you know there's the people out there that don't see it that way, the old school people. I don't even think they're old school, I just think they're fucking tools. I don't even think they're old school, I just think they're fucking tools, to be honest, um, where they don't see that man, that like there's someone that's gotta be under them or you know they, they can't know as much as them, instead of making them better than them. Yeah, yeah, and a lot of the people that you and I have talked about that you have been a senior enlisted for, I know I don't feel like you feel like that with them. I feel like they consider you an equal in some ways to make you successful, and that's what I think is that will make everyone successful with that culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, empowerment's a part of leadership.
Speaker 1:It's just like being a team leader. Yeah, You're. You're training that ATL to be a team leader, to be part of your lineage, your legacy as a good team leader. You know, it's the same fucking thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you fear being replaced, you're not a real leader.
Speaker 1:No, fuck no man, that's bullshit. Dude Like that. That is someone that is successful. That is happens to be under underneath is the wrong wording Right? You happen to be mentoring them first amongst equals. That is your success man. Yeah, you know it's like dude everyone around you. You should want to make successful.
Speaker 2:Well, think of that. Like, look at Chris, right Passarella, when he was young he had you guys around him, right, yeah, me in a in a distant way. But look at how successful he is now. That wasn't because he was alone on his own running around. It's because of the early mentorship, right and and there was never a fear that you know, oh, he won't need me one day, you know. I mean, he still calls us.
Speaker 1:He does, he does, all right. So I veered off on that, but we're going to, we're going to, we're going to come back to this and once we get to the next topic, the geopolitical stuff, we're going to take a break because I have been drinking tequila and I'm going to have to take a piss. So all right, so all right, so sorry, you're going to have to pee in a bottle back there.
Speaker 2:All right, so or he'll get kicked off YouTube.
Speaker 1:All right, I forgot about my old man glasses. I can't see this shit anymore. All right, can you talk about the impact of artificial intelligence and machine learning on military strategies and intelligence? Now, I understand that you can't go into doctrine. You can't go into anything that's behind the curtain there. But you know, with this question, what I'm asking is, yeah, are we training to it? Like, at the lowest levels to the highest levels? What are we thinking about, like? What is it we're doing? Because we know that China is heavily invested in this, and so are many other countries, so what are we doing about it?
Speaker 2:So the use of artificial intelligence and what I see the government doing now with it, I'm actually really happy with. So they're using it to, and it's even why we use it in our personal lives to make, to make processes easier.
Speaker 1:So here's an example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so here's an. I don't know if I've seen this actually out there, but here's an idea and there's another example I could give on it with sharing of intelligence with different countries. There's different rules for that based on the country that you are yeah right. So what if there was a language model that didn't look at anything out there on on the networks and only looked at the policy and doctrine that you put into it, and then you had a report that was, you know, not censored?
Speaker 1:automation.
Speaker 2:That you could drop in there and say I want to share this with Tonga, and you click on it and the only language that it could reference is the policy and the law.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it'll come out on the other end and you share it that quick. But that process before AI was months. Yeah, yeah, even in places that we worked, we actually had to classify things, get us policy to change, to classify things lower, to share it. Yeah, yeah, but now with ai, you could use that in a different way, to not bend the rules.
Speaker 1:but make it more efficient. What, what is? What do you think? Because here's my fear with ai and ml, um, and I'm I am trying to be disciplined enough to not let it happen to me, right, and so I'm trying to be to always have the mentality of, okay, using AI at this point right now is it's a start point and I still have to do the next. You know, 35% of work, or maybe it's the front end, right, and AI is completing the work. What do you think? Like, where's the direction that the military is going, dod government of making sure that people don't come become 100 dependent on it, because I think that's where we fail when that happens. And it's a, it's a super. I mean honestly, man, like a lot of people like us, we fear that the younger generations, I don't think, fear that. Um, what, what do you say about that?
Speaker 2:uh, two avenues. I'd like to go down with that. So, first off, in government, now we are appointing AI czars, like we do to the border and to climate change and all those other things. So it's people that look at that and ensure that we use AI to gain efficiency and not lose proficiency.
Speaker 1:That's a good way of looking at it. Kia, can you do me a favor? Can you write that down? I like that. I'm going to steal that from him. Play it dry.
Speaker 2:Another way that I look at it too, if I if I could tell a little story here real quick. So I have a friend in Hawaii. That's a local guy, grew up there, he's a. He's a high school teacher, but his background is in being a librarian. Right Came up that way in film, he studied film, and I have the best conversations with him about AI, because what we talk about is gaining efficiency, right, and an example that him and I talked about on a drunk night is what were you drinking?
Speaker 2:Probably just some, some Maui brewing beers or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as long as it wasn't bourbon, yeah, no no, no, no, no, no, no, probably for him a seltzer, maybe for me, zima. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, probably for him a seltzer. Maybe Zima, no, no, no, no, good, seltzer, he's good, I'm joking. So, one of the things that we talked about, and I don't think in academia, that they should fear people using language models for things, because in the ancient days, if you wanted to speak educated about a topic, you would have to take a seven month journey to the library of Alexandria, you'd have to go through the scrolls, you'd have to lead, read whatever language that was that that put in there, right.
Speaker 2:And then, if you fast forward into the future and this is the example he gave me then they had, you know, radio and the parents would say you know, why are you listening to the radio so much? You should be reading more books, right. And then the TV came out and the next generation of parents said why are you watching the TV so much? You should listen to the radio Video games, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:So we should have figured these things they're just actually making our consumption of information.
Speaker 1:Here's another example I'm going to throw to you, because I feel like you're pretty passionate about this stuff. Is the calculator, dude, like the texas instrument? Yes, like, think about it, man. Um, it's mathematical, so it's different, but in a way, ai, used in the right way, is mathematical with algorithms and this and the other. A calculator is something that we have all became.
Speaker 1:I am very dependent on a calculator. Much of the world is, and that is a. It's not AI, but it is something doing the work for you, so you don't have to use the brainpower and expend the brainpower to do it because one you weren't educated on it, whatever. Blah, blah, blah. I think that's the lowest form and it's kind of a bad example for depending on AI, but I bring that up as an example of that's something we we we us as human beings have basically put that aside and haven't even thought about things like that. Like things that we've come accustomed to is like like Excel, microsoft Excel. Come accustomed to is like like, look, dude, calculate excel, microsoft excel. How much work does microsoft excel now do for us through, um, whatever calculations or whatever formulas? Like it's the same fucking thing, but you didn't do it to, uh, to cheat or anything. You did it because it was more efficient to do it.
Speaker 2:You and I actually used Microsoft Excel to find bad guys. Yes, we did. Yes, we did. A caveat that I'd like to throw in there is you were going down an angle there that I like, and what we do need to show caution and patience with, though, is identifying AI hallucinations, because AI doesn't like to admit that it's wrong. Yep, so, as that's why you can't take the human out of it and just completely trust it, you have to know where.
Speaker 1:you have to be able to identify the hallucinations even like in today's models, whether you pay for um, your subscription with open ai and chat g right or 4.0, you still have to do your due diligence and look up links that it gives you, do a little bit of research, that you cannot 100% go out the door on certain things. Now, like you know, full disclosure to generate the questions that I'm giving you today, I used AI, but that's, I think that's a little bit the questions that I'm giving you today. I used AI, but that's, I think that's a little bit different thing, because I'm not putting facts out, these questions that it pops up, questions that I prompted to say because I've actually learned how to do a lot of the prompts and they are not facts. It's when you're getting into facts you have to question it. You there, absolutely the the human brain cannot be like, okay, that's the fucking answer yeah, ai doesn't give you a license to be a lazy idiot.
Speaker 1:Nope, right, yeah, that's that's uh, that was the whole point of that. Second part of the question is like what, what are we doing in our, our military or dod, wide I see, to ensure that our people do not have that mentality and will never get that mentality?
Speaker 2:first off, you have to embrace it. You can't fear the use of it, which I think a lot of uh academic institutions have done. You have to realize that it does make you gain efficiencies. Right, you have to have policy, you have to have rules, you have to have training. You have to put that money back into where they're not just getting generated answers to, where they could look at that and say, oh, I've been educated enough to where I know that is a wrong answer or hallucination. You have to train them on prompts. Right, with AI it's not a type something in and hit enter. You have to understand how to talk to it to get what you want, and that comes from training and education 100%, and I've got more to talk about that as we go through this, but right now let's take a break.
Speaker 1:My eyeballs are floating.
Speaker 2:You won't piss in your pants, right.
