We Trace A Century Of Nutrition Advice And Ask Why The Pyramid Still Haunts The Internet

The internet loves to dunk on the Food Pyramid, but the real story of nutrition guidance is stranger, older, and way more practical than a viral meme. We start at the beginning—the Farmer’s Bulletin and wartime “Basic Seven”—to show how scarcity, highways, and changing supply shaped what Americans were told to eat. Then we follow the guidance as it morphs into the Basic Four, the 1980s Food Wheel, the grain-heavy Pyramid, and finally the cleaner, more intuitive MyPlate. Along the way we call out the quiet forces behind the posters: industry lobbying, marketing muscle, and the gulf between advice and what families can actually afford.

From there, we take a hard look at the headline-grabbing upside-down pyramid packed with steak, butter, and whole milk. It’s a masterclass in getting attention, not a tool for putting dinner on the table. We unpack saturated fat limits, why placement matters, and where whole foods shine versus where nuance gets lost. We also spotlight policies that move the needle, like programs that double benefits for fruits and vegetables—real incentives that measurably improve health and stretch budgets.

If you care less about internet fights and more about what to cook tonight, we’ve got you. We talk templates that work on a tight budget—beans and lentils, frozen veg, oats and rice, eggs, canned fish, yogurt—and why simple, repeatable meals beat perfect plans. We even tip our hat to Canada’s food rainbow for clarity and balance. Come for the history, stay for the takeaways you can use this week, and tell us which food guide actually helps you eat better.

Enjoyed this deep dive? Follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more listeners can find us. Your feedback helps shape future episodes.

Diet culture, you've met your scientific match.
Debunking wellness trends, fitness fads, and diet culture with science.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

I'm being yelled at to hit the record button. So I'm hitting the record button and they're just staring at the computer like uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

We're missing gold here. Looking at the porn. Hold on, and then the basic form. Okay, I want to see what the difference is.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

The food porn pyramid? Is that what we're gonna be looking at? Is it we've decided to look at definitely tapered at the end. Make sure it doesn't go too far. But we we're um we're looking at not just the uh the new fuck ass upside down food pyramid, but we've decided to want to history.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

We want the history of it.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

We're going as far back as uh something as charming as the farmer's bulletin.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Which I don't know what that is, and I need you to tell me. I need to know what this is. We're gonna get there.

The Upside-Down Pyramid As PR Stunt

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Yeah. So the farmer's almanac? The U.S. government has used several different visual models and sets of guidelines to educate the public on nutrition. Now, most of you have seen the upside down food pyramid, which is not rooted in any sort of science or evidence, but you know, nor is it. I hear it's rooted in South Park.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It is rooted in South Park. I can we no, no, before okay, sorry, all right, before we get into the history though, can we just say that is such a great idea of them for them to do? Not for like educating or like making people better, but just for like getting like news about it and people talking about it. That's like the best thing they could have done. Because yes, we uh we've talked about it before, we haven't used the food pyramid since 2011, but people online love to rag on it, and it's the reason we're unhealthy, and it's because people only eat, it's like you should only eat sugar, basically, is what I told you. That's what people will say. It's like the food pyramid is awful, and that started off on the on the wrong track. Even though people never even listened to it anyway, rarely did people even follow the food pyramid.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Well, I love the irony that uh everybody is you know bitching about the food pyramid, the old food pyramid. It's like, well, you're just proving that you didn't follow it because it didn't frickin' exist 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

It was rare that people actually followed it, and it it lined up with other countries like Australia or whatever, like they're all the other countries, like we it lined up pretty well. The point is though, people did a lot of people didn't like it. So we got rid of it. We have my we have my plate, and that's what we've had for a while, and then they then this administration came along and they're like, How can we get in the headlines? How can we get people talking about us? Have you heard of South Park? And like that is such a great to take that. There's an episode of South Park if you haven't seen where they flip the food pyramid upside down and everyone starts shoving butter in their face and becoming healthier. It's hilarious. I love South Park, huge South Park fan. So for them to like take that and and do exactly that, just so smart, like so smart in terms of like getting people talking about it, 10 out of 10 on the like we need attention scale.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Didn't Kennedy like literally AI himself into the South Park clip?

AI Memes, Politics, And Perception

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Did he? He might, I don't know. I don't know. They've they keep AIing themselves into like a lot of different things. It's hard to keep up with all of it. And you could basically tell me, didn't RFK and then say anything, and I'll be like, eh, there's a good chance. Like, if you said if didn't he eat dead road or roadkill, I'd be like, yeah, pretty sure he did. Probably. Because he did. He actually did do that. He found roadkill and he put it on his roof and he took it home. So like you could pretty much say anything, and I'll be like, Yeah, there's probably a good chance RFK did that.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

I I think with the prevalence of these right-wing politicians putting themselves into AI clips like this, there's going to be like a perception of AI that will be inherently right wing. So, like, you know, Trump keeps AIing himself into things and RFK, like it's it's gotten to the point where anytime I see like an AI video, I'm like, what kind of stupid point are they trying to make with this? What dumb thing? Like, it's it's never used for something that's entertaining or educational, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:12

So it was just like AI slop, but used more by the right than the left, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yes, I think the left is not using the AI slop as much. And I think it might be a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Do you think that's because um like so I people have got I've like not even used made AI, but like I've used like a clip that had AI in it, and people like, don't post anything that even has an AI clip. People are just very anti-AI. And I'm not that I'm not that far. I think AI like it uses water, and that's the thing that people say, like it uses a lot of water. Now it doesn't use I it doesn't use as much water as some people will say it does, like they would they will throw out these crazy numbers when that's when you collect like everything around AI in the region, the zip code of AI that like oh uses this, and so the so I'm not as anti-AI as a lot of people. I think it can be used for good. There's a lot of AI slot that we probably and it's taken away from artists, blah blah blah, but because of that water aspect and say it's bad for the environment, and the left is typically more concerned with the environment. Do you think that's why? Because I feel like that's there's like at least a part of it.

Environmental Concerns And AI Culture Wars

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I don't feel like a part of it is the fact that we have these lovely studies that we can like reference to that we don't need to AI make up.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Oh, so like, well, yeah, because AI has that I don't know, like you can you like uh an image is worth a thousand words, right? So like if you make a video that's worth a million words, I'm pretty sure that's how that works. So instead of one Sunday, you show a video of RFK fighting a tiger while eating uh you know raw cheese, then that's probably more uh.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

If he starts posting stuff like that, we'll know where he got it from.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Drinking raw milk and just like drinking raw milk in one hand and just fighting a tiger with the other.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Did you see they they AI's a bunch of like famous movie people drinking raw milk? Or not raw milk, but whole milk. Oh, wait. But every single one was the villain of the movie.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

So wait, you're saying in they they AI'd a bunch of villains drinking whole milk?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Every single one was a villain in the movie that they came from.

Milk Memes, Got Milk, And Culture Threads

SPEAKER_02 6:25

What I've seen is people are tying the got milk uh campaign back to like white supremacy, and I don't know enough uh how to say anything besides just that. Apparently, something something with the Third Reich, uh, they did they use that somehow. I'm I'm not gonna speak more on it because I don't know, but I'm like, that's if that's true, that's just interesting. That's just interesting to me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

But anyway, well, you know who also talks about the benefits of milk? The farmer's bulletin. Oh sorry, DeLorean.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Well, the guy I was I was thinking he probably that was around during his time.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Can we modify the DeLorean to run on milk? Milk was around in the 80s, yes. I it absolutely was, and a major plot point in Back to the Future, by the way.

Enter The Farmer’s Bulletin Origins

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Okay, so give me the farm. What is so okay? So yeah, we're gonna go we want to go back before Food Pyramid, before that, farmers bulletin. When was that?

SPEAKER_03 7:16

What year was that? So this is 1894. So we're going all the way back to 1894.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

This is like this is like what 20, 30 years? This is like 30 years after like the Civil War. So like we're getting over that sort of shit. And we're like, okay, what is what should people eat?

SPEAKER_03 7:33

Like Lincoln's still warm at this point. Uh was a long-running series of free agricultural publications for the U.S. Department of Agriculture starting in 1889, designed to provide practical scientific information to farmers on topics like crop cultivation, animal husbandry, uh, soil health, and rural living. Okay, so this was more so for the farmers.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Okay, so yeah, that that makes sense. Because back then, like a lot of people were just farmers, and that's how you ate. It's not like today when you just go to you know a fucking Meyer and you're like, let me get some, let me get some Vienna sausages, you know.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

So this was is that how it's pronounced?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

A Vienna? Vienna? Yeah. Vienna? Is it not Vienna sausages? It might be Vienna. I've heard different things. I watch a lot of GMM go to mythical morning, and I think he and Rhett pronounces it like that way. That's weird, and now that I just do it as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

I'm not sure. They they grew up in North Carolina, I'm not sure they can read.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

But they do well on social media, and that's what I want to do. So I copy them.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

I love that very much Vienna sausages. I I Viner. You try try to say that in a video. See how many people yell at you for it. Oh, enough.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Enough to drive the algorithm.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

If you just have a like a syllable with the wrong inflection, people are gonna flood your inbox.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

You just say non-bread or something, and it's shit's over for you. Canceled.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

It's done. Luckily, non-bread is not mentioned in the farmers bulletin of 1889.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Was it just for farmers then?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

So it pretty much it was the first time that the USDA had issued dietary guidelines for Americans. And I think they had they were just trying to educate farmers on like, here are certain crops that you should be uh cultivating, here are certain animals and how to take care of them for optimal health to the people that you're selling this to.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

People listening can tell we just like Google this shit and we're like, let's talk about it. Let's just see what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

I'm not Googling anything. I'm I this is off the top of the dome.

Wartime Rationing And The Basic Seven

SPEAKER_02 9:33

I've I've read four novels on this topic. I have no idea what you're talking about. Because okay, here's my thing. I I I looked it up, and uh the first thing I saw was a 1943, The Basic Seven, which was during like wartime rationing. So we're talking 43, we're talking, you know, world war world war two. And so the basic seven, I find I looked up this old image and it's so great. It just says, eat the basic seven every day, and there's a bunch of like doodles of like a dog with a bone that says for strong bones and teeth and like builds muscle, there's a big like he-man guy. It's great. And then there's just all these like there's yeah, there's a bunch of yeah, this thing is great. If this is real, which I I saw a lot of different places, so it looks so I'm gonna guess it is, but who knows? Shit could be AI. Anyway, I like that in group one, it says green and yellow vegetables, and I just love that right off the bat. Like, green and like no other color. So, like, are we saying like, oh fuck eggplants? Like, get those out of here. Green, green and yellow, just green and yellow.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

I found the thing with the strong guy in the bottom left corner. Yeah, okay, yes, yeah. Green and yellow vegetables, some raw frozen or canned.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

What are we talking about? That's yellow, like squash, like yellow squash and peppers? That's corn?

unknown 10:55

Corn.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Green and yellow peppers, no red pepper.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

No red pepper. Alexa, order$7,000 worth of green and yellow vegetables on Amazon.

[Ad] Diet culture, you've met your scientific match.

(Cont.) Wartime Rationing And The Basic Seven

Why Gelatin Salads Happened

SPEAKER_02 11:05

I could say a lot of green ones. I can't say as many yellow. That's just a weird. I don't know. I don't, I don't really get that. Some raw, some cooked, frozen, or canned. Okay. So just get a variety. I like that they're saying variety. That's cool. And then group two is oranges, tomatoes, and grapefruits. Just those fucking three foods. It's not a group so much as like we've got to eat these specific products every day. And I'm wondering, is that tied back to like rationing and that's what they had? They had a lot of oranges, tomatoes, and grapefruits? Good being. It had to have been something like that. They must have had like an excess of these during like world, like that's what they could grow here, and they couldn't import them or something, and it was cheaper. So they're like, yeah, everybody eat oranges, tomatoes, and grapefruit.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

You know, okay, hold on a second. So do you who here is aware of like the old Sears catalogs or like when they would put anything in gelatin, suspending like the gelatin? Strawberries and peppers and stuff. So do you know why that happened largely?

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Anti-Semitism. I don't know.

Serving Sizes, Vagueness, And Wartime Logic

SPEAKER_03 12:42

It just seems like probably a piece of it. There was an and this is not something I this is something that I actually know, and we're I'm not just Googling. Um, so this time period in which they're using the basic seven also happens to coincide with the foundation of the national highway system. Oh, that's not where I thought this was going, but I'm interested. So the reason why that is important is because for the first time there were like Americans in Minnesota that could get strawberries. You know, like they're getting produce that was not available to them regionally, and they're like, Well, I don't know what the fuck to do with this. So I'm gonna put it in gelatin. They they hadn't figured out like recipes for it yet, because it's like this is a new thing. I've never seen that.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Their first thought was like, I have this new food, jellify it.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

I I suppose whatever thought process got Han Solo put in carbonite was what got blueberries put in jello. That's a wild jump. That's a wild jump.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

To be like, what do I do with this first thing besides you know, like, oh, I chop it up and I I I cook it or I eat it? No, I put it in jello.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

I'm looking at the basic seven, I'm looking at the time period, 1943 to 55 is when this was used, and I'm thinking, like, is this some sort of way of advertising, like, you know, to people that have never seen a grapefruit before?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

You know, just eat grape, just eat them. Yeah, just eat. It says, or in 1943, how many people in Maine had had an orange? In small print, it says, or raw cabbage or salad greens. Hold on. So you had greens and you had a vegetables, and then over here, you're like, here's these three fucking foods, or raw. Listen, we're making fun of the food pyramid. They had they they were on some shit when they came up with the system. What is this? Or just they're just random, just like, or raw cabbage or salad greens. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

But I think it's important to know that there are no amounts listed here. So, like, no, just one of the basic seven every day. So you've got like butter and fortified margarine uh with added vitamin A, but then also oranges. Like, how am I eating an equal amount of butter to oranges?

SPEAKER_02 14:47

That's seven. That's butter and fortified margarine, and then we have three, which is potatoes and other vegetables and fruits. Just at so okay, so we got green and yellow, and then these other fruits, and then we have just all just fruits. So three of them are just like fruits and some vegetables, like specific ones or not specific ones, whatever you want. Raw, dried, cooked, frozen, or canned. So again, they're just like literally what it's the war. Hitler's trying to kill everyone, you know, take over, just eat whatever keep you alive. And then we have group four, which is milk and milk products, sure. And then five is meat, poultry, fish, or eggs, or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Let's real quick, let's go back to group four really quick and read the fine print again.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Fluid evaporating dried milk or cheese. So flu like milk. Milk's a fluid.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

So there's evaporated or there's a fluid. It's a weird way to say it.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Yeah, but I'm not sure. Milk products, make sure that you have a fluid every day.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Well, listen, it's wartime, man. They don't have all fluids. Some of it is dried, some of it's just dried. That's what they got.

The Basic Four And Thrifty Choices

SPEAKER_03 15:56

So like is it one of those like generic products, like you know, like ambiguous meat product? They're just getting like, yeah, please, mom, pass me a can of fluid.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Milk fluid. Can I have the milk fluid? The fluid milk. Oh no, we don't have any left. Here's the dried. That seems like something that would happen during World War II. I mean, like, hey, so like I the other three were I'm honestly with it with the fluid. They're like, hey, whatever you get, however, you get your milk into it, just do it. Like, if it's dried or if it's fluid, do your like it's the war. I get that. The mil, but the the meat, poultry, fish, or eggs, and then they're just like, oh, if you don't have that, just eat some beans. If you don't have that, just eat some peas or nuts, like peanut butter, that's nut. I love how just like okay, and the last one was group six was bread, flour, and cereals, natural, whole grain, or enriched, or restored. By gosh. I I love that restored or restored. I what does that mean? Restored? Like, I know what enriched means. Is it just I would assume it's similar to restored? Because like you add more things after you take away the brand. Like, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Okay, so it's uh reviving ancient or heritage varieties for better nutrition or okay, so but at that point, I don't know, isn't that like it's already old?

SPEAKER_02 17:07

This whole thing could be summed up by like eat what will keep you alive, like eat the food that you have, and like you know what? For like World War II, I get it, man. Like, I I I like this is it's kind of it looks silly now, but like at the time I can see it, and I kind of like this. But it was used till 1955, so even 10 years after the war was over, they're like, Yeah, we're still we're still rolling with it. Like, it's fine. Why not?

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Let's let's put eggs and peanut butter in the same category. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Yeah, and then they were like, okay, so then in 1955, they went to the basic four.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Oh, so they're cutting out four, let's see which categories they cut out.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

And so, like, I'm I I'm having trouble like finding, I'm finding like an old, like an old picture where they have just basically like your dairy products and then your meats, and then your vegetables and fruits, and then your grains.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Yeah, it's it says the mine says some choices for thrifty families. And there's a yellow, a pink, a green, and a beige. Do you see that one? No, I don't see that one. I because I this looks like it's it. I'm gonna send it to you. Yeah. Oh, this is a whole article about uh FDA guides.

The Food Wheel And Lobby Influence

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah. Because I'm seeing like a few different things. But like, so like, yeah, you kind of hit your your basics. Okay, yeah, your milk group, your vegetable or fruit. Yeah, so your vegetables, fruit, your milk, meat, or bread. So they guess basically got rid of like the beans and stuff. They were just like, oh, you know what? No, now it's just meat. Like your fish. Oh, they do have beans. Okay, so in the meat group, they have some beans and peanut butter down here. So they again, they're just kind of throwing all together. It's basically they got rid of the excess of all that are like, oh yeah, here's these three fruits instead of these three fruits you should eat. Or gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Yeah, they're combining like these are all more protein sources, you know, like in some chan tangential way. The meat group is covering more protein sources. So we have combined a few of the basic seven into the basic four. So they're not cutting anything out, they're just organizing it a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, so I like I get this. This is if this is your basics. Like this, if you're like, you really don't know anything, you this could get you by, like, this is real basic. So, like, I get it.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Yeah, some of it's like hardly even like like on the meat group, it's nothing's really labeled for the most part. We've got some labels on the bottom, but like it's got a fish, we've got a picture of a of a chicken, rotisserie chicken. Oh, there's just a package of liver there right up top.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Oh. So like, and then finally I see the 1984. Okay, so this lists this lists everything out. Oh, here we go. There's a fucking oh great, there's a whole like Times article on all of these that would have made it a whole lot easier. Great.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Oh, yeah. Wow, if only we were smart. So what what happens in a RFK and Maho?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

We're great, we're so awesome at this. Okay, so I just sent it in the chat. So yeah, the food wheel, a pattern for daily food choices. All right, so now you just got a full-on wheel, which and now they give servings. Now this has servings, so there's grains, which is six to eleven servings. You got fruit.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

So we're back to the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah, we're back to the wheel. We got grains with six to eleven, fruits with two to four, vegetables with three to five, and then you got eggs, meat, poultry, fish, and they also just kind of like snuc seeds, nuts, and beans in there, just like on the corners. And that's like two to three, and then finally cheese, milk, yogurt, two, and then you have your oh, they just put alcohol in there. Damn.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

There's like it's also in the use sparingly category.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

So that's yeah, so it's fats, you know, like alcohol. They're just like these things don't eat that much of.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

And it's important to know this is the first time. That we're seeing serving sizes in our FDA guidelines.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

So it took them, I guess, from the farmer's guide, a hundred years basically, to get to a point where we're talking about servings.

Beans, Protein Groups, And Equity

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Okay, so the thing I sent you, no, no, no, no. Look up at the basic seven. Like right below that, there is a thing that says that gives like two or more servings of you know the meat, four servings. They had four servings of vegetable fruit group, four servings of bread cereal group. Oh, yep, yep. Oh, really? Brought four for bread and cereal, four for vegetables. And then the food wheel, they come over, they're like six to eleven for breads and grains. So this is when it seems like there's more of a focus on grain. And so, like the food pyramid and everything, like it definitely had like corporate interests involved, right? Like if the companies that make grain products are gonna want people to eat more grains, they're gonna lobby to get people to have more servings of grains. And so, like, I think that's a reasonable argument that people make. It's just they take it that extra step and they're like, they want to kill you. And it's like, no, they just fucking make cereal. Yeah, and they just how the got milk campaign happened.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Yeah, right. It was the dairy lobby, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

It's in the dairy industry, exactly. So it's not just like just grains and carbs are trying to kill it's it's just like who has money and what do they sell?

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah, they just want their cat. There's nothing wrong with milk if it is pasteurized. Sorry, controversial uh fact, but you know, it's it yeah, it's they're just pushing their thing, that's all.

From Wheel To Pyramid And Alcohol Limits

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Can I say, as the bean guy, I'm I'm feeling a little pushed to the side, and I'm not really happy about it. Like, literally, it's just like eggs, meat, poultry, fish, and then beans. Like, there's just this tiny little sliver of just like beans and lentils, and maybe you can eat like come on, beans are cheap, people can afford, especially even like wartime, even during the fucking wartime rations. I you saw like meat, paltry, eggs, and then maybe some beans with you have that was like bro.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

It's it's wartime. Eat your beans.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Are we gonna get a got beans campaign? We've got people drinking out of cans of beans, bean mustaches.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Beans. I'll listen, I'll hit it up, I'll do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

And then I'm gonna learn it's gonna be like a white supremacy thing. I'm like, ah shit. Oh well.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

At that point, we would have to switch in moderation to a right wing podcast. And um, that's where the money is.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Okay, so at the food wheel, but if you go down from the food wheel to the food pyramid, there's not really that much change. Like it's still six to eleven servings of bread cereal. And then Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

So right up on top, it says four years later, the food guide was released in a pyramid format. So it's uh it it it looks like it's pretty much the same. It's just okay. So it's pretty much the same thing.

MyPlate’s Clarity Versus Access

SPEAKER_02 23:31

They it looks like maybe they said two to three servings of milk and yogurt and cheese instead of two. And so, like but for the most part, it it's pretty much the same. It looks like they got rid of alcohol on the list. Yeah, alcohol is no longer there. Oh, and isn't that the craziest thing in this new upside down pyramid where they're like they got rid of the alcohol as um the the limitations on alcohol? Because it used to be like limit to one or two today, and they're like, and and what's a fucking Oz came out. It's like, no, it's a social lubricant that gets people together, and it's like, okay, I mean, cocaine could be that as well, but we still say like don't really shouldn't do it. And like this is coming from someone who does drink alcohol, like from time to time. I'm not I'm not an complete abstainer or whatever here, but like it's just weird to be like added sugar, absolutely not, no room for that. What was that? What was that? Blue moon? Yeah, no, you can drink that. That's fine. That's fine. That's a that's a weird turn, in my opinion, to be like, no sugar, but sure on the Jaeger, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

But the this one thing, this is fine because I like it. And you know, there's gotta be the same.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

That seems to be the answer to this is because I like it.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

That's all and I you know what I don't like about the food pyramid, the fats, oils, and sweets category always seems to be represented by these like little dots and triangles. That is weird. I was looking at that. Why is it? Yeah, it's this is not a this is a thing where it's like this is common. Sometimes you see the some sweets put up there, but a lot of times it is represented by like these little dots.

Food Systems, Subsidies, And Costs

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Like, do they just were like now we don't have just like put a key, put a little key there. Um, this little square means fats, and this little thing means sure. I don't know. It's it's weird. It's yeah, I don't I don't I mean like I think the I think of all of them, I think of all of them. The my plate, which we came out most recently until we switched to the fucking South Park episode, that is our life, is is my plate. I like it. It shows literally a plate, and you're like, here's your protein, have some grains, have some vegetables, have some fruit, here's some dairy. Like, I think this shows, like, I like that it's on a plate and they just give little portions and people you can see that and be like, okay, what should I fill my plate up with? Like, that makes sense. I think that's the best one so far. Like, I think we've done lately, but like at the same time, none of this really matters if people can't like access it and like don't have the funds for it, you know? Like, that's what it comes down to. We need to make these things, you know, we need to make it more accessible. And instead, we focus on corn, wheat, and soy because they go in so many products and we can use it to feed cattle or whatever, you know. Like most of the corn, almost all the corn we grow, we don't eat. It goes into fucking like batteries and shit. Like, I think I think high fructose corn, I think some of those are fructose corn batteries. I think I remember reading how like it's something in corn is like used for batteries or whatever, like they're diapers, even like they're you take you take these things and we turn to all sorts of stuff. Like, so I think that's we take the corn, we turn to high fructose corn syrup, and we, you know, we put it in that in the ton of products. And I think that's more of the issue, is just like then you know, buying fruits and vegetables, great, you're saying to eat you know, four servings a day, that's gonna be more expensive for people, especially when food prices are going up. Like, how are you gonna not only eat it and then preparing those things? Have you ever eaten a raw Brussels sprout? I tried, never will again. No, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

They taste like little balls of farts. I don't want it.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

You really have to oil those fuckers up and throw them in the air fryer and and with a whole shit ton of seasonings.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

So let's be oiling something of that size and shape up, I want to have a lot more fun with it.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

But anyway, that's what should be on the pyramid. At least the Dean if it's$250,000. God dang.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Or the DeLorean. Yeah, where does the DeLorean fit on my plate?

SPEAKER_02 27:27

It's holding up the plate. It's in the DeLorean.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

And then right beneath my plate, we've got a picture of RFK Jr. sloppily eating an ice cream cone.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

I see that. It's probably a raw ice cream cone.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

He's got the the dead eyes of livestock chewing lazily on grass.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Oh gosh. It's it's a very it's I will say, like, it's it's horrible and terrifying, and I'm worried, but also it's interesting to sit back and just be like, wow, this is what's happening, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

This is real. This is this is not like the the South Park episode is not even satire.

The New Inverted Pyramid Critique

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah, that's that's the whole thing with like idiocracy in South Park and all these things kind of just coming to life. You're just like, yeah, that's where that's where we're at right now. Oh well. And then, you know, we try and fight the good fight. Like, like, all right, let's try and make, you know, let's help people who have limited budgets. What can they eat? Like, that's why I'm so folk one of the reasons I'm so focused on beans and shit. So like, oh, it's cheaper. Let's try and find stuff that is, you know, more affordable and something people can buy even at a dollar store or whatever. And you just do the best you can, or the you know, like we say, don't be your worst, right? What else? What else is there? At least it's not war. I was gonna say at least it's not wartime, but like it's always wartime. It looks like we might be looks like we might be fighting for Greenland.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

I don't fuck if I don't look if you're not fighting for Greenland, you're fighting against Greenland, right? I think that's what they say.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

We could they say why not say whatever we tell them. So let's uh let's let's look at the new food pyramid. I think it's uh only fitting that we we put our eyes on it.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Oh yeah, I mean that's fair. The upside down this goes.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

It because uh ultimately this is how we got here on the topic, and we were started trying to figure out where this came from. The the new food pyramid is um very clearly influenced by some some carnivores. Lots of dairy and meat and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

But like Dr. Jess pointed out, like a lot of these things at the top are like fat, like you got steak and ground beef and cheese, and like it's gonna be and they still recommend limiting your saturated fats to under 10%. So it's like to have those things at the top of the pyramid, that might be that that that might be a little tough. Might be a little tough. Yeah. And then as you go down, you seem to have like lower, you know, like leaner meats. Like you have your your shrimp right there. Like that's a that's a leaner protein, I should say, leaner protein. Tuna, maybe it looks like that's tuna. I don't know. This this pyramid looks like it was made in a day. I gotta be honest. It looks like they handed it off to their their intern, and they're like, you know, listen listen, Brian. Like you gotta, we we're Brian A ball, throw something together. And he he was like a South Park fan.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

He's like, I'm gonna give them some fodder for a new episode. The uh the the new food pyramid gives the suggestion that we should be having butter and grapes in the same amount.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

That is pretty funny. Butter and grapes are right next to each other, right next to each other.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

I wonder if they're trying to tell us something.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Apparently, we should just be fucking in olive oil. It's above avocados. So you want that fatty avocado? Dump some olive oil on that bitch. It's gonna be it's gonna be smooth going down the esophagus.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

It's actually it is right next to milk, whole milk. So are are they saying that we should be drinking as much whole milk as we're drinking olive oil?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I never I you know, I probably should have leave it this way.

Whole Foods, But Missing Access

SPEAKER_02 30:54

I don't realize how high oil olive oil. Clearly, it wouldn't be seed oils, you know. They'd rather die. Oh, of course. Like the fact that olive oil is up there, like basically at the top. Basically at the top of this inverted pyramid. That's very interesting to me. I mean, I like that they have peas and they have green beans. That's so, you know what? I I appreciate you know what the best food pyramid, at least it's got beans on it.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

At least it's got beans. We've got beans real high up there.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

That's why it's the best food. I should have just hopped on with fucking Maha, like, hey guys, you put beans up there. I'm with you now.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

I well, uh isn't Paul Saladino like close to RFK? Like, isn't he? They met at the White House and had shooters of raw milk. Shooters of raw milk instead.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

They had raw milk shooters in the White House. That's that's a sentence I never thought I would say, but here we are.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Here we are. What about olive oil shooters? What about apparently we should be doing those with with fucking milk? I don't know, man. And again, hey, uh this actually uh harkens back to the uh the big seven. Is it what is it, the big seven? The basic seven. Um because again, we've got the the thing suggesting that we have butter and oranges in the same amount. So I we're going back to tradition.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Oh no. This is not this is not bold. Well, I'm uh I am really sad that peanuts are like way down there. Like they at least it looks, hey man, listen, Paul Saladino's ragging on oats all the time. At least oats, oats made it on the pyramid, man. It looks like they made I'm guessing that's oats. It looks like a bowl of oats with some fruit on it. I I They have spilled.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

It looks like they've spilled all over the ground there at the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

No, no, wait, no, no, no, no. I'm looking at the thing above that. You're looking at the thing with the bread at the bottom. I'm looking right above that, left of the peanuts, below the shrimp, below the walnuts, below the butter. What's that? That looks like a bowl of fucking oatmeal right there. But I guess if that looks like a bowl, if that's a bowl of oats at the bottom, what is that then? Is that what else could a bowl of rice? Rice with all grains. Yeah, if anybody knows what that is.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

What is that? P.O. box in moderation.

Incentives That Improve Diet Quality

SPEAKER_02 33:12

So yeah, someone tell us what that little bowl of like the whiteness and the the what the cherry looking things on top is. Like, who, but like, that's the thing. Look at this, like, opposed to my plate where you're like, okay, this much of this, this much of that, and this is just like this feels like a mess. This is this is just a bunch of things.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

I uh This is a bowl of raw milk with blood and pus floating to the top of it.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, hey, I will say this like if people followed this, they're probably pretty healthy, you know. Still, they'd be lots of fruits and vegetables, right? And you know, yeah, there's whole foods here. Lots of whole foods, lots of whole foods. That is great, but like does this help people with the with the access and accessibility part? No. So I I don't. It's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

Can we speak real quick about there was a program, I don't know how widespread this is in Colorado, where state-funded nutritional assistance uh they had incentivized buying healthier options by making each dollar count as two. So like you got double the buying power if you bought certain foods. Okay. And it increased health outcomes, and it also fed more people. And it it's it would make sense. That's the kind of thing that we need. If you want to feed people and you want them to eat the right way, you've got to incentivize those better choices, make them easier to access.

Canada’s Food Rainbow Wins The Day

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Exactly. Yeah, give people the ability to buy them, give them the education, try and get try and give people the education on what to do with them. Like that's what people need more than you know, the flipping a pyramid upside down. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Rob, do they have a Canadian version of this?

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Did they flip the pyramid sideways?

SPEAKER_03 34:55

We have a rainbow. You're the food rainbow? The food rainbow.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

I kind of like like reading rainbow, but it's the food rainbow. That sounds nice. That sounds funny.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

Oh, that's actually kind of cute. Canada's food.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

But I mean, I mean, like the number one thing on the Canadian food guide is of course maple syrup. You know, as he's holding out the can of maple cola.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Maple Cola.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Oh, that is maple cola.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Maple cola. I've never had that. Have you? This is I've never seen the the the rainbow here before for the for Canada. That's interesting. Yeah, they make a maple Pepsi. Relatively. I will say, like, Canada, when I was talking about America ranking third in food quality and safety in the world, Canada was first. So yeah, look at can't go to Canada if you want like safe food, I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Are we allowed to use the Canadian food rainbow in the States, or will we get in trouble for it?

SPEAKER_02 35:53

I think I don't think RFK would like anything rainbow related. I think he'd be very upset by that. So yeah, we've we've got our vegetables on the green.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

The trade war on. If you try to import the food rainbow, it's gonna get tariffed.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

The tariffed rainbow.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

They would call the the food rainbow woke over because it's a rainbow.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Okay, the food the food rainbow is now my bitch. I am in with this. It has got beans at the bottom where the biggest, like the biggest portion in well, okay, it's got the bread and broccoli and milk, and then there's beans next to it. They're all like the same size. So fucking can they give it up for beans. I'm with this food rainbow thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

This is your basic four.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

This is I'm I'm with the rainbow. Let's bring the rainbow to let's let's rain but rainbonize America. That's what I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Also, we should say here there are four categories on the uh Canadian food rainbow. There's a red where we've got our meats and uh poultry and such. We've got a blue, which is our dairy. Uh you see yogurt on there. We've got a yellow, and that encompasses our grains, and then we've got green, which is all the vegetables and greens and such.

Designing A Better Guide: The Food DeLorean

SPEAKER_02 37:03

They're literally the only fruits it looks like they have are some berries at the top. Oh, they have carrots. Oh, no, I guess. Well, that's no, that's vegetable. We've got an apple. Do they have an apple? I see like on mine. Oh, mine just has like a fucking can of tomatoes and then some potatoes. So like not as many in the fruits and the one I'm seeing, but like there's different ones. So I guess it's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Yeah, we've got at the very end, all the way in the back, we've got an apple, grape, uh, it looks like some kind of candle. Oh, I think mine are cut off. Okay. We've got some berries.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

So there are some, there are some fruits. So yeah, like I can I'm kind of fucking with this rainbow here. That's what I'm I'm that's what I'm gonna say. I think it's kind of cool. Oh, here it is. Yeah, I see the zoomed out version. There we go. It was cut off. I think I think Canada, I mean, like again, it doesn't none of this really matters, but if I'm picking one, if I'm picking out of everything I've seen, kind of like this food rainbow. They got tofu on there, they got beans on there. I'm I'm with it.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Okay, so hey, look at that. It's uh the the the winner of today is is Canada. Surprise.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Everybody clap for Canada. Oh Canada, our uh something sacred land, home in sacred land?

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Our Rob Rob, do you know the national anthem of the United States? Or something in Sacred Land, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Oh say can say can you see something light, fire rockets off because we like guns, yay, America.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Oh guys, can I admit something? Uh when I was a kid, I thought it was Donzerly. I thought it was one word and it was Doncerly Light. Not Donzerly, just Donzerly. What is Doncerly Light? I just assumed that was like a type of light. I had no idea. And it wasn't until I was much older that I was like, oh, Dawn's early light. That makes way more sense than what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

This was on episode 108 of Inmoderation. If you want to scroll back to that, this was four weeks ago, Liam figured this out.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't that long ago, I'll tell you. I was like, Dawn's early, yeah, Dawn's early light.

SPEAKER_03 39:07

Like Liam, it's Dawn's early.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Dawn's early light. Uh so yeah, we were doing the pledge before everyone. Canada wins. That Canada wins. That's that's what we've decided.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

All right, boys. So if we had to come up with a new food guide, what shape would it be in? How would we put Dean's? Okay. Oh, dude.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

I was gonna say one giant bean, and then it's like filled in within the bean. It's like so you eat mostly beans, and then there's like cottage cheese in there and whatnot, and the other things that you eat.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

That was gonna be the food DeLorean and the wing doors just have a giant picture of just beans.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Okay, so wait, are the I kind of like but beans, oh so beans are kind of like that shape of a like you know, curved. So maybe the bean the doors are beans, and then there's like food spilling out of the DeLorean or like onto the ground, on the ground, yeah, exactly. And I I I think that would be really confusing, but honestly, it might be better than the upside down food pair. It would get attention.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

So when the DeLorean travels through time, it leaves a trail of fire behind it, like two trail, like one trail behind it. I was thinking something with that. Okay. Kind of like the food rainbow, but like we put food in there. Yes, yes. So we've got the beans as the doors, but and then all the other less important things than beans would be in the everything else.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Everything else beans are your number one. You know, leaving everything else behind. Listen, listen. All I'm saying is if if milk and the dairy industry can influence this new fear the upside down food pyramid, why can't the DeLorean influence our food pyramid? That's all I'm saying. Like if it's going to be influenced by industry, might as well be have it influenced by a car. I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Powered by raw milk.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Oh god.

Community Plug And How To Join

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Oh no, our car has tuberculosis. Shut it down. Shut it down.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Instead of getting stuck in 1955 because they don't have plutonium, it's because they don't have raw milk.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Oh no, they have to go steal the raw milk shooters from RFK and Saladino to power.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

We need a little bit more. My goodness.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Yeah, all right. So uh I guess everyone listening here, vote on how the food DeLorean should be built.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah. Okay. If somebody could write a uh uh I'll listen, I'll pay somebody. I'll pay somebody to come up with like a you know an image with like the the streaming out the back and the beans and everything.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Anyone wants to Liam at inmoderation.net.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

That's a real email.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

I will pay uh yeah, I will pay you one at least a hundred dollars. If it's better, I'll pay you more, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

I'll chip in. We're gonna pay handsomely for this food DeLorean. And also it has to be Food DeLorean? Food Orion? I don't know. We'll get there. We'll workshop it. Maybe the person who comes up with this will come up with a better name. So it's the the doors have to be beans somehow. Doors have to be beans, and then we're looking at the trail of fire behind it, and you're kind of putting food in there.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Yeah, and it's gotta be like different like streams of bigness for like which thing you should eat, and it should be based on the Canadian rainbow, and that is what we are looking for.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

How high should aspartame rank on this thing with alcohol? Red 40, sucralose, seed oils in your inbox. This fell off my walking pad. Can't be more interesting than all the dicks I get in my inbox.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Do you guys get that? Speaking of dicks, there is now uh community servers for Hightail and Pal World.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah, because apparently I'm getting into that.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Can come and hang out with the community on uh anybody that has subscribed to the Patreon or to me or Mike's Twitch. Liam doesn't have a Twitch, he just joins in us.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Uh if you all have access to it, you can find access on our Discord. Um, you should see the uh channel if you have your accounts linked.