Welcome to an illuminating conversation with our prestigious guest, Reverend Senator Kim Jackson, who passionately serves as a senator, pastor, and advocate for the community. With her keen insights into the unique challenges faced by the homeless population, particularly during the winter season, and the misconceptions surrounding homelessness and work incapability, she highlights the importance of addressing these issues with compassion and dedication.
Our discourse takes a deep dive into the institutional challenges faced by those who seek to serve marginalized communities. We also shed light on the transformative power of compassion and individual support in caring for all of God's children. As we navigate these challenges and triumphs together, we find ourselves inspired by the significant impact of non-traditional leadership in the church.
We further unpack systemic biases and the role of meaningful relationships in addressing societal issues like homelessness, incarceration, recidivism, and the role of community and church in combating addiction. Our conversation wraps up with a call to action to support the Church of the Common Ground, providing resources for those grappling with homelessness and addiction. Let your hearts be stirred by this exploration of empathy, advocacy, and societal change.
You can learn more about the Church of the Common Ground in Atlanta at https://www.churchofthecommonground.org/
Welcome to an illuminating conversation with our prestigious guest, Reverend Senator Kim Jackson, who passionately serves as a senator, pastor, and advocate for the community. With her keen insights into the unique challenges faced by the homeless population, particularly during the winter season, and the misconceptions surrounding homelessness and work incapability, she highlights the importance of addressing these issues with compassion and dedication.
Our discourse takes a deep dive into the institutional challenges faced by those who seek to serve marginalized communities. We also shed light on the transformative power of compassion and individual support in caring for all of God's children. As we navigate these challenges and triumphs together, we find ourselves inspired by the significant impact of non-traditional leadership in the church.
We further unpack systemic biases and the role of meaningful relationships in addressing societal issues like homelessness, incarceration, recidivism, and the role of community and church in combating addiction. Our conversation wraps up with a call to action to support the Church of the Common Ground, providing resources for those grappling with homelessness and addiction. Let your hearts be stirred by this exploration of empathy, advocacy, and societal change.
You can learn more about the Church of the Common Ground in Atlanta at https://www.churchofthecommonground.org/
I'd like to welcome you to Spiritual Gumbeaux podcast for leaders who choose to lead not by Western theories of leadership, but through their own spiritual agency. And for today's podcast, I'd like to welcome the Reverend Senator, Kim Jackson. Kim is a graduate of Furman University, a mother, a partner but, most importantly, a community advocate. Kim, welcome to Spiritual Gumbeaux. //Oh, thanks so much for having me,// Kim. Well, I know that your time is precious, so I'd like to just jump right into our conversation. If that's okay with you, let's do this. Okay, great, great, great, great. So there's a song that says baby, it's cold outside. Tell me a little bit what that means to you and your constituency.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, I mean immediately. When I hear anything about the weather, I think specifically about my congregants, the folks that I serve as the pastor and vicar of the church of the common ground. These folks that I serve and are a part of my church sleep outside. They make their home, they make their bed on the streets, the sidewalks and the steps of Atlanta. And so when I hear baby, it's cold outside, I hear it's time to pass out the hand warmers and the blankets and to make sure that people know that the warming centers are open.
Rev Lynne:So one of the things that I hear on the street well, they just don't want to work, they just don't want to work. They're lazy, they're this, they're that. What would you say to that?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:it's just that's not true. So there are plenty of people who do want to work. They want to work but they don't have IDs because they perhaps lost them in a tragic way, maybe a fire or something like that, maybe it was stolen from them or they've been incarcerated, and despite us having a carceral system that's happy to lock you up for an indefinite period of time, they're not willing to give you an ID when you leave. So there's that hurdle. Also, there are people who are sleeping outside, who aren't able to work. I mean, think about it, lynn.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:You remember when you were in school, and certainly when I was in school there were kids that you went to school with, who you knew, because of their developmental disabilities, that they probably would never be able to live on their own. So, unless they have family members who are able to take them in when they graduate, when they age out or they're able to buy some grace of God able to get into an institution, those kids who you know for lack of a better term rode this short bus was what we would talk about it when we were kids they grow up to become adults who sleep outside on the streets because we don't have a safety net to catch those folks. And so those folks it's not that they don't want to work Many of them, developmentally, cognitively, simply aren't able to work right. They're not able to fill out an application and not able to do the functions, and we knew that when they were four or five years old. So I actually blame that on us and certainly not on them.
Rev Lynne:So now your district. You're in district 41, correct?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:That's right. So Stone Mountain, Clarkson, Tucker Pine Lake, that general area.
Rev Lynne:That is a very diverse district, very diverse district, which is actually, in my opinion, pretty wonderful but can be challenging to meet the various needs of all of the constituency. And how do you do that? How do you manage that?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, so my district is probably the most diverse district in the state because I serve Clarkson, which is a refugee resettlement area.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Over 80 languages are spoken. If there has been a war in the last hundred years, there's a high chance that there's somebody from that country in which there was a war who has been resettled here in Clarkson. So many languages, many religions spoke in that area. And then of course, we have, you know, native Atlantans, native Stone Mountainia ns and people like NY transplants. It's super diverse and I think for me, part of serving my constituency has been about making sure I try to get around and listen to the needs that people name, what their concerns are, and I'll acknowledge, as a person who has a heart for the those who are often left outside my ears are particularly attuned to those people who are on the margins. So I visit often with people who are refugees, who've been resettled here, who are immigrants, people who are living in spaces that have been grossly neglected, and I think that I have a bias towards supporting my often underserved constituents much more readily perhaps than some of my other more well established constituents.
Rev Lynne:Well, that bias, though, doesn't help to fund campaigns. Well, that's a fact. Well, and I say that because there will be others who will listen to this podcast and say oh well, you know, she's already admitted she's got a bias to this particular group, so she doesn't need to hear from me because she doesn't really care about what I think or that leaning towards the right side, because they probably weren't going to give anyway, but just needed to hear that so that can justify them not giving. But your constituency, your work, your advocacy work, is typically downtown, right downtown, which is a good distance from where your political advocacy happens. How do you, how do you bring these two together? Are you spread thin in this particular work?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:I mean, I'm definitely somewhat spread than the Georgia legislature says that we have a part time job. It's always supposed to be a quarter of a job, if you will. That's at least our pay reflects that. But in fact that is a full time job and I have a full time job with a congregation. So it's a little tight.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:But the reality is the issues that are facing people downtown are really not different than the issues that are facing my folks who live out and under the bridges in the cap county either. And I will say that a lot of the ways in which people are disenfranchised, particularly around issues that are pertaining to the carceral system, whether that's probation, parole, people who were locked up that has no respect of person right, like that could be somebody who is downtown with my congregation and that could easily be, and often actually is one of my constituents, brothers, sons or friends, and so these issues are interrelated and interconnected and so when I'm serving in downtown, I'm also serving uptown, if you will. My constituency is there as well. And here's what I'll say to those folks who are like oh, you have a bias towards people who are marginalized. I very much in the belief that when we that all boats rise together right and so that when we lift up, when we help make sure that someone who was formerly incarcerated has an opportunity to get an ID, housing and a job, that we are all better served as a result of that.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:A lot of my constituents, you know one of their major issues that they've got all looked up are issues around safety and crime. They're concerned. They want to be able to live in safe homes that have their cars broken into. I want that for myself as well, and one of the ways that we get there is we make sure that young people, who typically are the ones who commit these types of crimes, but they have better alternatives for how they spend their time Right. One of the ways that we help ensure safety is that we make sure that when someone is resettled to this country, that they have an opportunity to get an education, that they have an opportunity to get a well qualifying job so that they're not just running the streets and committing crimes. So to me, my work in service to those who are often marginalized is actually a greater service to all of us.
Rev Lynne:Okay, tell me a little bit about what's. What are the faces? What are the? Who are the faces of this community that you see and serve? What do they look like?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, I mean my district is so incredibly diverse. I mean we're talking about we're talking about Brown and black folks who were born in this country or not born in this country, folks who have really clear Southern accents, you know, hometown, hometown country folks, and also folks who have migrated from big cities. I have a large constituency of people who have come down to the Steele Mountain area to retire from New York because the prices for homes are just substantially lower, and so I have a big kind of northeastern crowd that's migrated down here. But we're also young. The average age in my district is under 35, which is kind of unusual. I have a lot of children. Right now I'm working on a project to help fund another early learning center or to expand an early learning center in Clarkson, because the population of people between the ages of zero and five just continues to grow, and so my folks are young, they're kids, but they're also I think it's really.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:I want to be really clear we also have people who are white folks who have been around from generations. Bland's men who went to the top of stone, announced into reestablish the KKK. It's a lot of different people. I'm proud to be able to represent those folks and to try to raise the issues and concerns that they have. Then I have a really quirky little town called Pine Lake. It's in the heart of my district. For the last eight years it's been represented solely by women. It's one of the few city run from their chief of police, they are mayor and everything in between it's been run by women. But it's a tiny little community that has one of the highest concentrations of LGBTQ folks who live there. My community also looks queer, it also looks affluent in some ways and it looks extraordinarily poor and impoverished in other places.
Rev Lynne:That's exciting. That's extremely exciting to hear about this female run community that's been there for quite some time. I think this is the first time I've actually had any conversation with someone that's had that kind of an experience in their community. There are some redistricting issues that are happening in your community across the state. Can you just say a little bit what that's going to mean for you in this next upcoming election?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Sure, we literally just finished, about an hour ago, working on maps for the entire state of Georgia. That has to do with who our person will be, who represents the Congress. Also, who your state house and state senators will be in the coming election. Here's the trouble with this we just passed out new maps but ultimately that's going to have to be litigated in a court. So honestly, lynn, I don't know what my district is going to look like in 2024. I don't know who I'm going to represent.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Maybe I'll represent the same people I do today, or I might have a district that doesn't actually include Stone Mountain, which is two miles from my house. It's quite ironic when you look at the map, how it gets drawn, but never in a million years would I have imagined that I could live two miles from the city, that when they write my name it's Kim Jackson-Dash, stone Mountain that's how I'm referred to, and to imagine that if the maps that we just passed if those are, except about the courts I would actually not represent the village of Stone Mountain, is wild to me. But that is just one small, small example of some of the ways that these new maps have just been drawn in ways that don't make a lot of sense.
Rev Lynne:So this podcast, as I said in the introduction, really is about leadership that does not necessarily conform to Western ideals of leadership. So can you just share with me your spiritual journey in leadership, how you got to this place, because I think that's important for our listeners to hear.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, I think. When I hear that question, I'm immediately reminded of a conversation that I had with the discernment committee when I was in the process of becoming an Episcopal priest. So I was 23 years old, maybe 24 at most, and this discernment committee they're sitting around a table in a boardroom and it's very intimidating. They asked me what kind of priests are you going to be? And I was clear that when they asked me that question, that they had very clear ideas and very narrow definitions of what that was going to be, to use your language as a very Westernized concept of what it is to be a priest. And I responded to them in my great clarity as a young person.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Well, I hope to be a priest for a very long time and I think that I'll be a priest in many, many different ways, and that has been my truth and my reality.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:I've been ordained for 15 years almost now, but I lit out my calling in the ways that the Spirit calls and guides me to live it out Right.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Despite being ordained in the Episcopal Church, most of my time has been serving congregations and working with people who are marginalized, and that is driven from my deep sense of calling to that type of work, but also my clear understanding about who Jesus invites us to be, which is just someone who does hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and those who are thought of as not being worthy of hanging out with.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:And so I think I've tried to really listen to the Spirit and listen to the sacred texts and teachings that we have that call us to be with our people and our people being not just kind of stuffy white Episcopalians but to really be with all of God's children. And so you know that's what I hear I'm not a traditional priest. I'm never going to be a traditional priest. I'm going to be the one who understands that God shows up in the form of the person who has no shoes, and I'm also going to be the priest who is married to a Muslim woman, who understands that God shows up in the bodies and in the realities of people who practice other religions as well. Right, like that is also part of kind of my own deep understanding of spirituality and how God works in the world.
Rev Lynne:You know, I'm listening to you carefully and you use the language and I really appreciate that I'm going to be versus I am, which for me gives very little room to grow when you I'm already here and opens up a wide breath of grace. What?
Rev Lynne:I'm going to be, and that's wonderful to hear and it's interesting because I'm now at 25 years of being ordained. Yeah, but all of my ordained ministry has always been around marginalized communities, predominantly African-Americans, communities that are struggling. This is actually the first time that I've been in a community where it was quote unquote a little bit more affluent, but I've always had a great passion for that. But I've also noticed that people who have done the work and have committed themselves to this kind of work seemingly to me don't have the kind of support system within the church that understands that you can have a whole room full of people, but they may not be resourced enough to be independent. And there it almost seems like double talk, double talk. Have you had any of that kind of experience with your ministry?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yes, and I think that the physical church is designed with one group of people in mind and that is people who are affluent enough to be able to be self-sustaining and to support a full-time rector, a full-time pastor and a staff. That's the model that the church is built on and my congregation doesn't fit that model at all. Right, my folks sleep outside. I will say my folks are literally the most generous people I've ever met in my life. I mean, they are every day the story of the widow with the might, and so it is not that they are not generous, it is that they don't have a lot of resources to give. Percentage-wise, my folks give way more than the average person who's attending a Sunday morning service in a traditional church. So, because the church is not designed to really support or know how to deal with a congregation like mine, there certainly are obstacles and bumps in the road and I feel like I hit my head up against the wall because I'm trying to constantly have to fundraise and talk about the work that we're doing and why it's important and why it's a part of, should be considered a part of, the Episcopal Church and a part of really the church at large, that it is God's work. So I will say that that's been true on an institutional level.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:And let me be clear, the amount of support and, I think, spiritual sustenance that I receive from people, individuals like you and people who exist outside of the institution has been incredible, right. So this has not been a lonely road. It's been a hard road and certainly sometimes I feel like I am scraping the bottom of the bucket just to be able to get some sugar to putting people's coffee. But there are people who are not related to the Episcopal Church in any way, shape or form, who are praying for me, for our congregation, every day. Some of the biggest donations that we receive of goods comes from people who, for all intents purposes, completely secular, right, like they're not. They just believe in the work, they believe in caring for their brother and sister, their sibling, who is sleeping outside Right. So, yes, it has been a challenge when it comes on the institutional side, but I have been overwhelmed and incredibly blessed by the amount of support that we've received beyond the institution.
Rev Lynne:And for those who are listening, when we're speaking of institutional side, we're not speaking directly towards a particular diocese, but just the structure itself, so that there's no points of ambiguity. And I will agree with you, the structure itself really does not lend itself to people on the margins, to the poor, to the disenfranchised and to the unchurched. One of the things that I discovered, which you may have discovered as much if you cannot read, it's really very difficult to be an Episcopalian. I mean, it really is.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:It's very difficult. Yes, yes, and I had to bring in a reading expert to help us change our liturgy to get it down to at least a third-grade level, just so that folks could engage more fully with the liturgy. Like that's a huge point.
Rev Lynne:Yes, and oftentimes those who are seated in our congregations, who are historically Episcopalians and educated, don't kind of see how that is a barrier, can be a barrier to another poor population of God's people. Because we're so wedded into this, is the way we always do it and undoing is a challenge. Undoing is a challenge, and how oftentimes we are as much a part of the institutionalization and keeping people out versus opening the way to bring people in. What would you suggest as ways in which to transform that in our communities and our normalized communities.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, so I am a huge fan of being in a relationship with people who are not the normalized group of folks. So I don't know that I would have ever thought about just. It's not just that you have to be literate to be in the Episcopal Church, it's actually quite a high level of literacy, and so I would not have really given that much thought at all if it weren't for the fact that I was serving a different congregation in which there was a gentleman who was on the vestry who could not read. He was completely illiterate. And because of that relationship and the level of leadership that he had in that congregation, right, I began to make changes, we began to implement things that were able to accommodate that.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:But if you don't have relationships with folks, then you don't know, because you don't know what you don't know right. Lynn, I had somebody who was, you know. It goes back to your very first question about, like people who sleep outside. They must just be lazy, they just must not work. Well, if you don't know that when somebody is released from prison and they spent the last 15, 20, 30 years in prison, if you didn't know that they didn't receive an ID when they left, you don't know right, and they're all these assumptions.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:And so getting proximate, building relationships with folks is going to be a part of how we undo some of these systemic biases that we have built into our system. It's just absolutely required and it also requires us to listen when people tell us, hey, this isn't working right. It means I had a congregation who said, like these hymns they have, all these words Don't work for us, like we can't keep up. And so we went back to actually the stuff that I grew up with Lynn, like that old school gospel songs that are short and have, you know, repetition involved in them and that I think that take us to a whole other place anyway, but we transition our music to that because folks said all those words don't work for us, but you have to listen to them and you have to be in a relationship in order to do that work. Yeah, yeah.
Rev Lynne:Another one of the. I'm really very pleased about this particular interview because a lot of the ministry that you're engaged in takes me back to some of my earlier ministry, and one of those ministries is prison and jail ministry For the Diocese of Virginia. I was the staff person for the Bishop of Virginia for prison and jail ministries and, ironically, during that my tenure there, this was the first time that the bishops of the various dioceses in the state of Virginia had ever visited a prison and I took them to death row, and I would take teams to death row so that people could get some sense of what that was about, because we have this law and order mentality versus peace and justice, and the law and order mentality was well, I want to see them executed. Well, the truth of the matter is, in Virginia at least, you don't see anything. You know that they're there, you can be invited to the execution, but the curtain is pulled, you see nothing, you see no suffering and when the curtain is open, that person is on a gurney and being wheeled out of the room.
Rev Lynne:I bring this up to you because many years ago, one of the prison guards on a team B, which was the last day of a person's life said to me. I asked her. I said why do you do this? And she said it's a ministry. And I said to her it's a ministry for you to see someone go to their death? And she said no, she said my ministry is to journey with them in the last days of their life. Yeah, yeah, what a powerful distinction. And then she said to me I asked her. I said what are you here before an execution? And she said to me it wasn't me, it was the drugs, if I had only learned to read and if I had had community.
Rev Lynne:I find that to be very, very powerful in terms of what our role as ministers, as churches, as communities, and to understand that these are not issues that people are born with, these are not genetic issues, these are societal issues. And I want to say to you, as an ordained person and as a political person, a political advocate I see you as an advocate that these are the things that I see and want out of those who are in the role that you're in is to address those three issues so that we don't have people on death row and in prison, and that it's something all of us have some responsibility in and I say that from the core of my being that these are societal issues. What do you see as the work of community as it comes to issues around jail and prison and misery, recidivism? Because you've been out there, you are the voice for that in our church, in the Episcopal, in this diocese and in the Episcopal church.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, so you know I got my start in advocacy work largely around the death penalty here in Georgia and trying to bring it into it, and so I'm really mindful of the men and now one woman who is on death row here in Georgia, and I agree with you about some of these things that we have a responsibility in our role to make sure that people receive an education that gives them opportunities, that they can have hope. Right Education is really a tool that helps move us towards being able to have opportunities, and so we want to make sure that happens. I'm very, very interested in investing in us doing things around drug reform.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:We have a crisis in this country, but also specifically in the state around drug use. People talk about it being the opioid epidemic, the opioid crisis. I am here today to say we still have a crack epidemic. That is not over. The folks who sleep outside just across the street I'm at the Capitol today when we're recording this folks who sleep outside across the street. They're actually not on opioids, they are crack, and they've been on crack since the nineties and the eighties.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Those are black folks who are caught up in that addiction and they need alternative, safe, legal drugs in order to move forward with their lives, and so I'm really, really invested and committed to making sure that we increase the number of methadone and suboxone and other types of clinics that help people move to safety, and also a lot of folks who are sitting in jail today.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:It's because of a mental health crisis, it's because of a substance use disorder. All of those things are related and fundamentally it's about disconnection from community right that perhaps when they first started showing signs of mental illness, they became isolated from community. When they became isolated from community, they turned to illegal drugs in order to address that issue, like it all kind of circles back, or when their community failed to protect them. I want to talk really specifically to black families that keep secrets about abusers who they know are in the family. So when people community failed to help the girl whose uncle was raping them, even though the family knew that it was happening, they ended up on drugs. That's a failure of community right when we keep those secrets.
Rev Lynne:I'm glad you brought up the opioid versus crack, because that has taken on a systemic racist element to it. All of a sudden we're all jumped on the opioid bandwagon when crack has been there for quite some time. Is that disconnect being addressed in the state house?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Not as much, not as well as it should be. It's interesting with my dad South Carolina, as well as around crack, are actually much more progressive than they are here in Georgia. So in South Carolina, yes, if you get caught in possession of crack, a small amount of crack, it's a misdemeanor. In South Carolina, a misdemeanor that is amazing. You know you're not going to. Nobody's getting caught up on a misdemeanor for having crack possession. Here in Georgia that's a felony, and so that needs to be changed.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:I think our entire relationship between the criminal justice system or the criminal legal system and drugs has to be transformed. We need to begin to talk about drugs as a public health issue. This is a disease, not crime, and we're just not quite there yet. We're getting closer because, you know again, because the systemic racism white people are the ones who are caught up on opioids. So we're getting closer, but there's still major work to be done when it comes to how we care for individuals who use illegal drugs right, and I think one other thing I want to name, I want to highlight again, is that a lot of these folks are using drugs because we felt them as a community.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:There's some type of hurt, there's some type of pain. When we look at how crack works, how opioids work, it dulls the pain centers, the pain centers that are both physical and emotional. So, yes, the story that we hear most is you know, the white person who was prescribed an oxacognitoctomy after you know an accident and then they got addicted to it, and so we think about it being physical pain. But those drugs are dulling emotional, spiritual pain, and that's the kind of stuff that the church, that people of faith, that community are uniquely capable of helping to heal that spiritual, emotional pain. And so that's the work that we need to do, and we have to do it in a way that's loving and compassionate and non-judgmental, because we all have that. I have spiritual pain, I have emotional pain. I also happen to have insurance so I can get legal drugs to take care of that right. So we need to do a lot of work to heal our communities when it comes to emotional and spiritual pain.
Rev Lynne:So we're coming to the end of our time together and I want to say, I want to say thank you. I want to leave you with a question, Because a new mom, a new mom, congratulations. Tell me, what do you want to leave as a legacy to this world, in this world to him? What do you want to leave for him?
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Yeah, I want to leave a world that is more compassionate, that leans into mercy more quickly than vengeance, that really believes that we are related and connected to one another and that my well-being is caught up in somebody else's well-being, so we help one another. That's the kind of world, the kind of ideals that I hope to instill in my child, but also the kind of world I want him to live in, one where mercy reigns, where love is supreme, one where he doesn't have to go out and give people food to eat because we've solved that problem and people have the food that they need without needing to beg.
Rev Lynne:Ladies and gentlemen, as you are listening to Spiritual Gumbo today, I would like to ask you in your holiday giving, to please consider giving to Church of the Common Ground. And, kim, if you could please give the information, the website address or what's the best way to get to Church of the Common Ground for resources, financial and material or whatever else that you all may need to do the ministry that you're called to do, yeah thank you so much.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:So, Church of the Common Ground the website is churchofthecomminggroundorg and so again, that's churchofthecomminggroundorg. And if you go to our website, that's how you can donate both physically and monetarily. Just hit that Donut button or send us an email. We are always, always looking for groups who are willing to do some gathering of hot chocolate or coffee or sugar. Lynn, you know this well, we always are looking for those types of things, but we love it when we get kind of large donations of coffee and sugar so that we know that we can get through the winter. So please consider doing that. But certainly churchofthecomminggroundorg is where you can make some contributions to help further our work.
Rev Lynne:Okay, Thank you. Thank you, senator Kim Jackson, and we look forward to seeing more great things that you're doing in the state of Georgia on behalf of the least amongst us and thank you for your time today. Take care, thank you so much, god bless, happy holidays. Happy holidays.
Rev Sen Kim Jackson:Thanks, lynn. Yeah, yeah, two cheers.