As Men Thinketh
James has conversations with people in his life, on how to be better, what they are doing. And different random things.
As Men Thinketh
Exploring Love for God, Morality, and the Role of Wealth With Charles Nielsen
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Join us on a transformative journey where we, along with our insightful guest Charles, put our moral and religious consciousness under the microscope. We'll first grapple with the profound question - what does it truly mean to love the Lord, thy God, with all your heart, mind and strength? As we explore this, we'll skim the surface of the New Atheist movement, and the allure of a life devoid of moral obligations it holds for young minds. But, as we progress, you'll see us making a compelling case for aligning our actions with the highest good as a pathway to enlightenment.
Venturing into the realms of wealth and success, the conversation takes a deeper turn. Ruminating on the responsibility and temptation that accompanies wealth, we'll examine how fulfilled needs impact our decision-making. This thoughtful exploration will also bring us face-to-face with the challenge of being successful while upholding our familial roles, making it clear that money does matter. As we draw the curtain on this enlightening episode, we'll leave you with words from Franklin Delano Roosevelt as food for thought, and an urge to seek a life that resonates with fulfillment beyond financial gains. So, prepare for an introspective voyage that promises to enhance your perspective on faith, morality and wealth.
Meaning of the First Great Commandment
Speaker 1This is Episode 1 of as Men Think it . What do you think of that name ?
Speaker 2That's a really good name .
Speaker 1I'm your host , james Allen . I'm here with my co-host , andy , and today we have a special guest , our cousin and friend Charles .
Speaker 2Thanks , for coming down . Yeah , thanks for having me on . I was planning for this in great detail .
Speaker 1So I got an idea to run past you .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1It's been on my mind because I didn't go to church today , so I just get to think about my church . So I got this idea thinking a lot about from a religious . Well , it's a religious question what does it mean ? The first great commandment ? Christ says that the first great commandment is to love the Lord , thy God , with all my heart , my mind and strength . I've thought so much about that question because I'm like what does that mean ? Because what does it mean to well for one ? What does it mean ? Well , what does God mean ? That's probably the first big question that you need to ask . And then , what does it mean to love Him with all your heart , mind , mind and strength ? Does it mean to love the figure of Him ? Does it mean to love the idea of Him ? Does it mean to live your life in a way that is like Him ? Does that make sense ?
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , and the finish that it says and Him only shall thou serve .
Speaker 1Yeah , which I think I was listening to a guy , well , and he was talking . He was talking about atheists nowadays and basically saying that we as mammals , as creatures , cannot live life without worshiping something like a deity . So his point was that you can't live , if you can't live , without worshiping a deity . If you're not worshiping God , you're worshiping something . So is that what he's meaning ? Because , like basically most of the commandments that I've ever seen the 10 commandments , stuff like that that Well , actually I should even say more than that , but almost any commandment that somebody can explain hey , this makes your life better .
Speaker 2Yeah . So , like I remember , I remember when I was a teenager and this is this is like just before my time and it was just kind of finishing out when I was a teenager , but I still kind of got into this whole thing there was the new atheist movement and there was your Sam Harris , christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins , and these guys were like the great influencers of atheism and it appealed a lot to like your teenage boys especially , and the big reason why that is , at least speaking from my own personal experience is you're off the hook . Obviously , obviously they wouldn't say that in their words , but to me that was kind of the appeal , even though I wouldn't have admitted at the time . That was the appeal . It was like great , now we can do whatever we want .
Speaker 2But I ended up kind of turning away from that because I realized that , no matter what I could convince myself of intellectually , my conscience was still there and that doesn't necessarily lead to my religion as I live it now . Right , but there was still something inside of me that was saying , no , you can't just do whatever you want . You can't just . You can't just , you know , have whatever kind of relationships you want to have . You can't just treat people however you feel like , even though morally that may not matter per se , but there's still a right and wrong . And it was hard for me to explain because it wasn't like I could just quote the scripture like I can now , or I could just quote CS Lewis or these people that have thought about this kind of stuff a lot more than I have , but there was something that was at a gut level . It was like no , there actually is a right or wrong , and maybe that's not very convincing to some people , but that was what turned me away from it .
Speaker 1I can see that makes sense . I just more been thinking about it for , like , the improving of my life . I heard a guy talk about it basically , where he was just saying everybody out there , that is half-assing your life , you're disrespecting that , you're disrespecting God . Basically You're not willing to get out of bed in the morning . Let's say you're fat , broken , depressed . It's like how is that ? How do you love the Lord , thy God , if you can't love who you are ? I hate that word , I hate love yourself , the self-love .
Speaker 1But he more explained it in a way of like the same way that we love our kids , like we would do anything for them , kind of like one of Jordan Peterson's rules , where it was like , well , treat yourself like somebody you're responsible for taking care of and if you're going to love him and serve him to the highest degree . So even if you look at it from the standpoint of like what is God ? Jordan Peterson says that it's the highest good , which I tend to like that better , mostly because I don't know . And so you go . If he's the highest good and I'm aiming toward the highest good , why am I sitting around doing nothing ? Even to the standpoint of maybe you can justify your existence by saying , well , I'm being a good person and I'm sitting here doing nothing , but I don't know . I look at it and just go . Man , if I can't help anybody , am I really loving him with everything ? Am I really even keeping that commandment If I can't even help my neighbor out ? It's like I have no money , I have no health .
Speaker 2Take an example of just you going into your work . You're a countertop guy , you're a steel fabrication guy , you have that as something that you're doing , but are you actually doing it to the most that you can ? I think that's going to the part , to the point of what you're talking about . Well , I have my business , but if I'm not , if there are things that I know I could do but I'm not doing it just out of just out of fear and out of laziness , then I'm not going to succeed and I also don't deserve to succeed because I probably Am not who I have been trying to tell myself and tell other people that I am . I'm not that person .
Speaker 2I might fail in whatever endeavor I might be in , but but if I fail because I'm not doing what I should be doing , if there's the little bit that I'm leaving on the table , then that's on me and I think the heart , mind and strength goes to that , not not to turn us into Puritans that are counting how many steps they take on the Sabbath , but to help look inside yourself and to see and to ask the question what am I not doing that I should be doing ? And I mean , obviously scripture is full of that , of things that if you , if you need things to correct you , because you , you know , if you need things to think about as as what you should do , there's lots of things in there . Obviously , and and also just In your life , I think you , with self-reflection , you could quickly come up with things that you're not doing as well as you could do , and that all of your heart , mind and strength is just so much .
Speaker 2It's everything yeah , and it should . It should be a sobering thought , it shouldn't be . Oh yeah , yeah , we , we do that obviously .
Speaker 1So then the question is why do we think so small ?
Speaker 2It's easy to . It's easy to intellectualize yourself into a place where you Don't have to do more work . Often , when you'll hear people repeat the same thing over and over again , like , oh , I'm just doing this because I have to , or oh , I'm just doing what I have to to serve my family , or whatever , you'll hear people make make a Semi-excuse over and over again . And that isn't them trying to convince you , that is the brain trying to convince their own heart . Right , because that deep down , we have these nagging things that we know we're not doing and yet we , we make up reasons to not have to do that and it's just human nature . So , you know , don't be too ridiculously hard on yourself . But At the same time , most of us don't have that problem . You know , it is definitely possible to not be , to Be so disciplined in the wrong thing that you're neglecting other things .
Speaker 2And everything in life is kind of a balancing act , especially as you , as your family grows , as your , you know , as your relationship with your spouse grows it . You know there's you're always going to have to be balancing things , like I was just . I was just talking to my to to my wife about how we were having to travel so much and we were trying to figure out how to budget for all these travel expenses . It's like , well , we can't predict what's gonna happen in the future because we know so many people Far away and we have to travel , and the fact is we just know so many people in comparison to , I don't know , your average Joe blow , I guess . And so everything in life is a balancing act , and so it's hard for me to say , oh , this is the one thing where you need to change your life . But I think , deep down , we all know what our one thing and probably several things is .
Speaker 1Well , I think , if you , just If you truly didn't know , just take a few minutes and go sit in a quiet room and just think it's like a guy . A Guy told me to , just every morning , go stare in the mirror for three minutes , and he's like , go look into your eye for three minutes no , I said , set a timer on your phone and he's like one of the most powerful things I've ever done . He's like do it every day for a month , mostly because he's looking into a soul . It's like there's no distractions . He's looking right into his eyes just saying who am I , the very core of who I am , and and I think you're right , I think most people know exactly what they , they should be fixing .
Speaker 2Yeah , so , so , uh , I've actually been thinking about some of this a lot . Blaise Pascal he was a 17th century philosopher , I think he was in 1654 . He said the source of all of man's problems is their inability to sit quietly alone in a room . And I think he said for an hour , and uh , that was before TikTok .
Speaker 1Yeah , that was before a cell phone .
Speaker 2That was before Instagram , that was you know . I mean , I can only imagine what he could have thought in 2023 , because you know , our attention spans are incredibly short , but but it goes to the same weakness . In fact , it actually makes me kind of happy that that , uh , he was . He was observing . The same problem with the human condition , then , is that we have now .
Speaker 1That's one of the things like I'm listening to Marcus Aurelius and the dude . It's been 2000 years and he's talking about the exact same things we're going through and it's like okay , so I guess nothing changes . Maybe to figure out all of our problems we just have to read some old philosophers and tell us everything . He's an interesting dude , fascinating , fascinating individual .
Speaker 2Yeah , and the fact that someone with so much power could have that kind of self reflection , um , you can see why people consider that the height of the Roman Empire . It's not often that a person with that kind of power also is the person that , uh , that is being his own check on that power in his own heart , like that . That's a lot of work and and I'm sure people have done something like that , but but probably never when you are literally the most powerful person in the world at the time .
Speaker 1No , we've seen multiple people with a tiny , tiny amount of power over like a hundred people and they and they don't know how to have a check on their power . No , it's fascinating . No , if you have , you know . I don't know if you've ever listened to him , but any of his what is it ? Meditations .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's the meditations . Yeah , it's a good book .
Speaker 1I've sat around thinking so small for so long and then using exterior circumstances to uh as an excuse not to step up . Does that make sense ? I say I really haven't started bidding jobs up this way and you use other people need me or I shouldn't be doing this ? Oh , you know my favorite one I only need a hundred grand a year . And and why not change your mind to start thinking I need a hundred grand a month ? Some people there's gonna be multiple people that we know they're gonna be like you're ridiculous .
Responsibility and Temptation of Wealth
Speaker 2Well , with that kind , if say you were to get that kind of income , that would come with a tremendous amount of Responsibility , and human nature is to not want that .
Speaker 1So do you think that's more ? What people are scared of is the responsibility .
Speaker 2I think in general . Yeah , because because if you have just enough to take care of your needs and your family's needs , you don't have to worry about . You don't have to worry about whatever corrupt ideas might come into your mind . You know , you know whether you have to decide between Buying , an escalade buying and , you know , helping somebody out . You know that all these things , I mean it's , it's a , it's a real thing . I think for I think , I think for me that would be a , that would be a nerve-wracking thing . At some point you have to . You have more than you need . So what is my responsibility to other people ? And and we're in that place already . Truth be told , it's not like it's not like any of us are dying of starvation or anything . We're , we're all in that place . But when that gets ratcheted up to you know a hundred times what it is , right now , that that is a little scary and I think , and I think we ought to be sobered by that .
Speaker 1So if I never get the potential To , like you were saying , that responsibility that comes along with , let's say , a large , large income . Does it make me a good person if I've never been tested in that arena ? Right , so , like you , see a lot of people and they're just like , I'm a good person , I've never done anything bad . It's like , yeah , but you've also never had the opportunity to do anything bad . Does that make you a good person ? Or are you a better person if you've had that opportunity and you know what you do ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I understand what you . I understand what you're saying . There is . There is also , though I think this is what christ is saying where he's saying lead us not into temptation . Where it is , it's better to avoid the situation where you might get in trouble . And so I would , you know , I would recommend to the aspiring wealthy people in this room , the aspiring wealthy people that are listening to seriously ask yourself what you would do if you were successful . Because if it's just too , it's just to have an awesome life or to just , you know , to just go and to , to do all the cool things , the possibilities for corruption are just endless . And so , yeah , are you the kind of person that you could be if you were to face all the temptation and walk away ? Maybe not , but you also have to consider the fact that that You're willing to do that . I think that I think that Willingly exposing yourself to To .
Speaker 1Temptation has has consequences as well . Now it's just questions that I've been trying to wrap my head around of of , of how do I stop thinking small ? Because because I almost feel like that it is my responsibility and duty , right , but also on top of that , to have a healthy body and it's , uh , my responsibility to have good relationships with my kids and my wife and um , and then to To basically to grow upon those things . Does that make sense ? Yeah , yeah , so it's not only just about how do I make a bunch of money ? Because if it was that , let's start selling drugs .
Speaker 2Well , and also , and also , there's ways to have a happy and fulfilled life without , without money , by , by uh , any stretch of the imagination
Purpose and Making Money Importance
Speaker 2. But I think I think it goes back to the same question what is your purpose ? If you have a purpose that requires , that requires a big income , again , I would just ask the question to what end are you doing this ? Is it to serve ? Is it to serve serve your family , and then the community , and then the world , or is it just deep down that you want to have an awesome life ?
Speaker 1Well , I definitely want to have an awesome life . I think everybody wants to have an awesome life .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , not everyone does , it seems .
Speaker 1Yeah , there are some people that are pretty content with having crappy ones .
Speaker 3Yeah , I'd say the big , like probably the big hang up that I would have is not being willing to put in what it takes to get anywhere . It's like even to get on a podcast I had to have somebody else do it for me and then just jump on the bandwagon .
Speaker 2Hey , you're better than me . I don't even know how I got here .
Speaker 3But it's like I need to start a business and make some better money .
Speaker 1No , I really think it's everybody's obligation to figure out how to make money and to grow .
Speaker 2Well , whether we believe it is or not , it is because we're in this place , where we have that responsibility .
Speaker 1Yeah , you have it too , More than just your family , more than just your kids . Now you got it to a lot of people , really , even just the obligation that you've got it to people that came before you . You know , it's like I got it to my dead grandpa to make something better of this life for the four years that he spent marching across Italy .
Speaker 2Yeah , for sure , for sure . I mean , we're all guys that are in this place where we're supporting families and we literally this is our lives and so , knowing that it is our lives , how do we do that in the most effective way possible ? I think that's kind of a bigger , that's kind of closer to what you're driving at , because if you were able to support your family more effectively and work and not be just killing yourself and out of town all the time , don't you have a responsibility ? If you're able to do that and I think you do , and that will come , because that will make dividends . The same way , if you invest , that makes dividends over time . If you invest time in your family , that makes dividends over time as well , and we have that responsibility . And if we're just squandering that time and the ability to make income because we're afraid to take the next step , that's where we're condemned . Basically , that's where we're looking our alternative cells in the eye and being like , oh , I just didn't do that .
Speaker 1Yeah , so everybody out there go make some damn money .
Speaker 2That's your takeaway .
Speaker 1That's my takeaway .
Speaker 2Be a good father and husband too .
Speaker 1Well , yeah , but the thing about it is that I know I'm a better dad when I got a little money in the bank , just saying I'm so grumpy . When I don't have any money , I'm just a grumpy old bastard . I know how that feels .
Speaker 2Why don't we close with the words of Franklin Delano Roosevelt we have nothing to fear , but fear itself , or something like that .
Speaker 3Anyway , could be wrong .
