Propertyshe Podcast
Propertyshe Podcast
Gaby Hersham
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Gabriela has been credited as a pioneering voice of flexible workspace in the UK and a champion of women in business. She founded Huckletree in 2014 to bring together London’s most innovative startups, entrepreneurs and businesses, after being inspired by the success of co‑working in New York. Huckletree is now one of the UK and Ireland’s fastest‑growing co‑working communities, with a presence in London, Manchester and Dublin.
Gabriela has been actively involved in campaigning for diversity in the innovation ecosystem and passionately supports diverse entrepreneurs both within Huckletree’s community and beyond – demonstrated through the launch of Fairer Funding Now, Huckletree’s campaign to promote inclusivity in startup investment, and Huckletree Alpha, the pro‑bono accelerator programme for under‑represented founders that Huckletree has run since 2017.
In 2017, Hersham gave a TEDx talk on the future of work and was named one of Tide Bank's Top 20 female entrepreneurs to watch in 2020.
Gaby has been heralded as a strong example of feminine leadership in a traditionally masculine business world; leading with heart and soul while making decisions based on a deep understanding of their potential impact.
Gaby is a mother of two boys aged six and two, and is married to Antoine Nussenbaum of Felix Capital.
At the same time as the demand has kind of grown from those much larger, more established businesses, the demand has grown from landlords and developers of some of the best buildings in London to have a flexible operator within their buildings. So it's all happened pretty much at the same time, and it's enabled us to access, again, some of the best buildings in London where we can go in and we can give businesses that are big but that no longer want to take their own lease access to the building.
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Susan Freeman. Welcome back to our Property She podcast series brought to you by Mishkonda Rea in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment. Today I'm delighted to welcome Gabby Hersham. Gabby is a pioneering voice in flexible workspace in the UK and a champion of women in business. She founded Huckletree in 2014 to bring together London's most innovative startups, entrepreneurs, and businesses after being inspired by the success of co-working in New York. Huckletree is now one of the UK and Ireland's fastest-growing co-working communities, with a presence in London, Manchester and Dublin. Gabby has been actively involved in campaigning for diversity in the innovation ecosystem and passionately supports diverse entrepreneurs, both in Huckletree's community and beyond, demonstrated through the launch of FARA Funding Now, Huckletree's campaign to promote inclusivity within the world of startup investment and Huckletree's Alpha, the Pro Bono Accelerator Programme for Underrepresented Founders. So now I'm really looking forward to hearing from Gabby Hersham about setting up and building Huckletree, the journey to date, and what's going on in the world of Flex office space. Gabby, good afternoon. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Very much looking forward to this conversation because it's not often I get to interview somebody who started in film and uh moved into real estate. So should we start just talking a little bit about your early career and how that background influenced your decision to move into a more entrepreneurial role?
SPEAKER_01Yes, sure. So it's a funny story. I went to business school in London, and after leaving business school, I thought the logical thing would be to go and work for my father. And so I went to work, and I remember sitting in his office, and I think I was there for about a week before I thought I need to get far away from working with my father for the near future. He is an amazing man, but sometimes it's very difficult to work with family, as we know. So I took myself off to New York and I decided that I wanted to study acting and filmmaking. And from there it's a quite interesting journey into how I ultimately ended up starting Huckletree because through the film world, I was working at a film production company, and we were working from the main producer's tiny apartment, and it was kind of 2007, 2008, where all of these flexible working spaces were appearing everywhere, largely in response to the crash and to people kind of starting their own more entrepreneurial kind of endeavors. So we ultimately find ourselves working at one of the very first WeWorks in New York City, and I just thought, wow, this is amazing. I love that, you know, we don't have to work at home alone anymore. I loved that bringing together of kind of different people, different industries. We found it incredible because we met so many people that were actually instrumental to the film that we were making at the time. And I also loved the design and the way that you could influence the design to kind of create these moments for people to come together. So, long story short, I moved back to London and I thought to myself, I would really like to set up something similar. There were a few already in the UK, definitely the office group was around and some others. But I just jumped right in and I thought I felt like there was going to be a burst of kind of startups and entrepreneurial initiatives in London, and I was right, and I wanted to create the home for that. And so, long story short, and it was a long story, but making it very short, I ended up um opening the very first, our very first space in Clark and Well in 2014, very much as a home for startups and innovation.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. And I think we have to say, for the record, that working with your father, Gary, was actually in the property business.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, exactly. On the resie side, as you know. And as you also know, my father is a big character. So I think, you know, it's it probably wasn't right for me at that stage of my career. I think now, genuinely 15 years in, I can handle myself more and I'm more aware of what I can bring to the table. And I think when you go into any family dynamic in the workplace, it's very helpful to have that knowledge as opposed to just being the daughter of. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he must be pretty impressed with what you've achieved.
SPEAKER_01I think he is. I do think he is. You know, we're very close, it's lovely. And I think I think there's a pride there because I am in an adjacent industry. I mean, we're both in property, and I so I think that there's a pride there because a lot of the people that he'll speak to have come across Huckle Tree and whatnot. So it's definitely kind of very much in his world. And where did the name come from? So the name I have to give credit. My best friend completely came up with it. I remember exactly where I was sitting, and I was like, I need help, I can't find a name. And I didn't want to call it anything with work or with office because we work and and the office group and others existed, and I wanted to just create a new name that symbolized a place where businesses could come to grow, hence the word tree. And so she came up with the name Huckle Tree. And it's funny because I really do often reflect about if I would give it the same name today. I probably wouldn't, but it doesn't mean that I don't love what it has become.
SPEAKER_00It certainly stands out, as you say, because it hasn't got office or work. So it's just that bit different. So when you were starting out, you know, you came back from New York, you had this great idea. How did you go about earning the trust of your first landlord in Clarkenwell?
SPEAKER_01That was actually, I think, one of the most challenging. I mean, there have been many, many challenging moments over the past how many years, but I think that I will always remember that that was a challenge because I remember that I actually had the money in the bank that I had raised from people that I didn't really know. In fact, one of them, the main investor at the time, I didn't know at all. And I remember him calling me out about sort of seven, eight months later after he'd put the money in, saying, Why have you not deployed my money? Where is your space? And I couldn't find a space because, of course, when you are a newfound business without any covenant, and also back in the day, we have to remember, I remember having conversations with some of the estates who today, you know, flex is very much at the forefront of their strategy. But back then we're saying, no, no, we don't want this many people in the building, we would be conscious of the wear and tear. You know, they did not like the idea back then at all. So, in a sense, we were all quite ahead of the market back then. But it was very hard to find our first space. So it took me a long time. I worked with a great agent, um, and I think Clark and Well, although it wouldn't survive today as a flexible workspace in London because it is so small, and I think what we've come to expect from Flex is these great experiences and the hospitality and the amenities, it was really the perfect space, I would say, for us to start and to test the market.
SPEAKER_00So we'll we'll talk a little bit about how Flex has changed because it's it's just evolving, isn't it? But when you started out, were there role models? Were there people that you saw doing things and you thought, oh, you know, this is great, people that influenced you?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I definitely, and I think, you know, if anybody says they didn't, I you know, I don't know if I would believe that, but I definitely took a lot of inspiration from the early days of WeWork because what they were doing was so unique and it was on such a big scale. And the brand perception that came with that and that came with the experiences that they were offering that nobody else was offering at the time were really exciting. So I would definitely say that I did take a lot of uh inspiration from that American style of what the office could do and what it could bring for all of us as people inside them. In terms of, you know, actual people that have inspired me, if that was your question, you know, going back to my father, my both of my parents definitely, who have worked very hard. My mother came here as a refugee from Iran in 1977. My father has been working. I often used to drive home from nightclubs and drive past his office at 3 a.m. I wasn't actually driving because I would have been drinking, but I would have been in a car and seen him at his desk working at 3 a.m. So I think they have both kind of always given me that sense of I need to also contribute and I can't just sit back and and hope that, you know, I will be taken care of. Um, which is good and and I think a beautiful thing to instill in your children, and definitely something that I'm trying to instill in mine. Who uh is still quite young, I think. Yes, but not young enough to be very lippy and try to negotiate everything. And actually, my eldest, I say, he has learnt the art of negotiation from my father. Everything is a negotiation. My dad picks him up from school three days a week, and he often goes via my dad's office on the way home and he hears all the calls in the car. So he, you know, he's learning. He's learning to negotiate at an early age.
SPEAKER_00Oh well, good luck with that. Having been through that. Good luck. So, Gabby, when when you started Huckle Tree, what was the the vision? Was the vision to sort of create sort of multi-locations or try one and see how it went?
SPEAKER_01Listen, I honestly I think that I just wanted to do one at the beginning. But then I remember very quickly realizing that when you raise money, you know, it's not just to do one and they want a big return. So I remember in the first business plan that we were making for our seed round, my vision of kind of let me run one space and run this as a lifestyle business very quickly became, and we're gonna have 10. And I just remember thinking at the time, I'm never gonna have 10. Like that felt so far off. But obviously, you know, we did and we went on to take further money. And and I think also, you know, the industry, it's had its ups and its downs for sure, but definitely the trajectory has been overall positive over the past sort of 10, 11 years, especially now post-COVID. So I think as we saw that demand continue to grow, naturally Huckletree grew with it.
SPEAKER_00And when you started fundraising, you know, you you said, you know, there wasn't a track record, you know, you were just somebody, young woman, with an with an idea. Was fundraising like challenging? What did you learn from the early days of of looking for investment?
SPEAKER_01It was challenging. In a in a funny way, I think back to your question around our first building. The most challenging is often those early, those first times that you're doing something. The first time that I was fundraising, although we've gone on to raise much bigger amounts in subsequent rounds, the first time was, I remember, a big, a big challenge because as you say, I was, I didn't have a track record. I had been working in the film industry, I was quite young, and I think the world has also moved on a lot positively, in the sense that back in those days, I remember sitting in um meetings with potential prospective investors and not being addressed. So I had actually enlisted the help of a university friend of mine to basically meet his contacts who had money and who could invest, and they would address him in the meeting. Uh, and I would literally sit in meetings and not be addressed at all. So, you know, I think the world has changed a lot, and I've again back to the point about my dad, I've learned a lot and I've grown, and I I hold much more confidence in myself than I did back then. But um, it definitely wasn't easy that first fundraising round.
SPEAKER_00And there must have been like rejections in those early days, and that must be quite difficult to deal with, you know, when somebody says no or they, you know, they don't like the idea to just sort of, you know, carry on.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure there were, but I don't remember them. I don't remember any rejections. I only remember the things that have got us to where we are now. There must have been. I I cannot imagine that the first person that I went to meet is the person that ended up putting the money in, but I I promise you I don't remember any of them. I think that's good because I think as an entrepreneur, you hit so many hurdles and obstacles that you can't you don't dwell on them. You just have to move forward. And I think that's kind of a crucial part of the DNA of an entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right. I think you have to really believe in yourself and and your idea because it's it's very easy to get derailed by people who are, you know, who everybody's got sort of something negative to say, and it's not always helpful.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. 100%. You have to have a kind of naive a naivety to your own potential success. I I came into it completely blind. I had no idea what would go into building a business. And if I now were to start again knowing all the things I know, you know, I would be much more conscious of all the things that could go wrong and it could prevent me from starting another business. But back in the day when it was my first business, I was just all in.
SPEAKER_00So at what point did you realize that Huckle Tree was not going to be just the one location and that it was going to, you know, grow and become much bigger?
SPEAKER_01When I started raising the first round, um, I had that reality check moment where, you know, I realized very quickly that nobody was going to give me money if I could only promise them one location. So it was in the very early days that suddenly the vision very suddenly became much bigger. Um, and I don't regret that. I think also, you know, I think about these things quite philosophically, and it has been an incredible journey. I was only just today thinking about my team and the people that I have the pleasure of meeting and working with from our entry-level positions to the people on my, you know, the most senior people in my business. These are people that I would never have met otherwise. And, you know, the energy and the positivity and the um the loyalty that they bring every day really means a lot to me. So, you know, it has been a journey that I probably wasn't expecting, but it has had so much beauty along the way.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk a little bit about the business. How how many people do you have in the in the team now? So I think we're about 55 today. Okay. And then how many, how many sites do you want to talk a little bit about? And then we we will obviously talk very much about Lead in the Hall, but if you could just give a bit of the of an overview for the listeners as to you know what what you have.
SPEAKER_01We have 10 sites today across London, Manchester, and Dublin. They are all very central, and London is our biggest market. So in London, we have a cluster in the West End, a cluster in the city, a building on High Street Kensington, and um an innovation lab actually at Regents University in Regents Park. And I think yeah, that's those are our London ones, and then we have got flagship sites in Manchester and Dublin, which are amongst the biggest of all of our hubs, and again, very central. And do you theme them or are they all slightly different? So we we used to theme them, actually. It's a good question. We used to, especially coming out of COVID, there was a big demand for these kind of, you know, what we would call them vertical villages, these buildings that were like interconnected where all the members had a kind of recurring link between them. And at a time, our Soho location was very much a hub for venture capital, and it was really exciting at the day to have all the venture funds kind of working together and all the meetings that they would take. And I used to love the energy in there, still do, but it's it's changed a lot. And then we launched Oxford Circus, and Oxford Circus was um at the time of its launch a hub that was built around three and crypto, which was also very exciting. And our hub in Westminster was and still is themed around GovTech because a lot of businesses there obviously kind of work very closely with the government. So we have definitely themed them in the past. We don't really look at it that way strategically anymore when we're opening a new building for many reasons. But it's always interesting to see also the evolution of the theme. So, for example, something that we are seeing a lot now is that across our well, two of our three West End buildings, so Soho and Oxford Circus, there are a lot of food businesses. So restaurant chains or kind of consumer packaged goods businesses. It's really exciting. Um, so the themes kind of ebb and flow, and I guess our job is to accommodate for that as opposed to being rigidly stuck on the theme that we had in mind when we took the building on.
SPEAKER_00You are, I do remember during during lockdown, people talking about buildings for you know themed sectors, and there was an idea that you'd have lots of lawyers in one building. I mean, it sounded awful. So I'm pleased to hear that we've moved on slightly. And how's your audience changed since lockdown and COVID? What sort of evolution have you seen?
SPEAKER_01I think, you know, before COVID, Flex was not a strategic part of any or many businesses' strategy. I think it was largely something that was for early stage businesses or that was seen as an interim solution, you know, when they were in between offices or whatnot. And now I think it's very much part of the model for a lot of businesses. We see that more and more members are, you know, enterprise companies, they're mid-cap companies, they are companies with huge budgets to go and take beautiful, flexible workspace. And I think there's been a massively, you know, fundamental shift actually since the end of COVID with that in that regard. And it's been interesting for us as well, because that, and they've obviously kind of happened at the same time, but at the same time as the demand has kind of grown from those much larger, more established businesses, the demand has grown from landlords and developers of some of the best buildings in London to have a flexible operator within their buildings. So it's all happened pretty much at the same time. And it's enabled us to access, again, some of the best buildings in London where we can go in and we can give businesses that are big but that no longer want to take their own lease access to the building.
SPEAKER_00And on average, how long do these companies stay with you? Or does it it I mean, are there people that really stay long term? Some people stay short term?
SPEAKER_01On average, now we sign kind of initial commitments of 12 or 24 months. Obviously, it does depend on the size of the team. And there's always a great tension between a few of us, you know, kind of running the business and the sales team who, you know, we're always pushing for the longer terms, obviously. But on average, definitely, you know, 12, 24 months are kind of not out of line with what we see happening every day at the moment.
SPEAKER_00And how do you facilitate networking between your members? Do you actually get you do you organize programs, you organize networking events?
SPEAKER_01We do, we do. And I think that the challenge for us is that I think for a long time we were ahead of the game with the events that we were doing and the way that we really leveraged the community that we had built to support each other. I think the industry largely is, you know, has commoditized that now. And the question that's always on our minds is how do we kind of continue to innovate in that part of our business? How do we continue to offer events that are not, you know, exactly the same as the events that you would get if you left Huckletree and went to any other operator? Because I don't actually feel in our industry that there is, there are definitely pockets of loyalty for sure, and certain businesses that love your brand and love what you offer and will stay with you, you know, for years. But as you know, by and large, I don't think there is a lot a lot of loyalty in our industry. So if if a business, you know, is not going to stay with Huckle, you have to just do as much as you can to make them want to stay and you know make it feel that your proposition is is differentiated. So we're kind of always thinking about what we can continue to offer that isn't now kind of the standard programming across the space. And the answer isn't always obvious.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds as if it's all very much a community, you know, in the space that people come in in their own teams, but probably get to know the other people that they're working with pretty well.
SPEAKER_01I think, if I'm honest with you, I think that pre COVID it felt much more like that community. And I think that that was driven because the businesses that were in the spaces at the time were earlier stage and they really needed that sense of community. I actually think that post COVID, it's less about community or ecosystem as we called it, and it is much more. About, you know, the design, the hospitality, the amenities, the building that you're in that are driving those, you know, leasing decisions on behalf of the members. So I think it has changed a lot and how we see the value that we bring to a business has evolved a lot. But I think for us, we're still thinking about how do we drive attendance, how do we drive retention, how do we justify the cost that a business will pay when they come to Huckle Shee, because of course there are cheaper options across the industry. So we're always thinking about that, but I guess it's in a different way now than it was pre-COVID, which was much more focused on the community.
SPEAKER_00That's really interesting. And in terms of amenities, I mean I suppose, you know, there are things that you think that people are going to want, but actually when it comes to it, they don't necessarily what what are the sort of amenities you think are are really driving, you know, people to Huckletree? What are they most concerned about?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you can imagine that we do a lot of member feedback surveys and what we're trying to understand what was the you know number one thing that contributed to you choosing Huckletree. And it's hard, if I'm honest, to get the exact answer. I think amenities are definitely one of them. The location of the building, just working for them and their team, obviously the price, the design of the spaces also. So I think amenities are important, but they're kind of one of, I would say, four areas that really are what drives the decision ultimately. Um so what we try to do is, you know, take buildings that are either very well located or very beautifully designed, or both, ideally both, with a very good underlying structure between us and the landlord, is obviously the goal, doesn't always work, but it's it's the goal, and then price it in a way that the client can justify that price for the building and the immunities that they're given. But to answer your question, we don't go crazy with our immunities anymore because pre-COVID we did, and we lost a lot of what could have been and should have been a revenue generating space for immunities that actually weren't used that much. So a good example was um in our space in White City back in 20, I can't remember when we signed it, 2017 maybe, we put a well, it wasn't really a crash because we didn't have anybody looking after the children, but we built what we called a parents' room where if you're if you had to come into work but your children were off school for whatever reason, you could bring them, and that was the room where you could sit and do your work or have a meeting and they could play. And we designed it nicely, we didn't spend a lot of money on it, but we designed it nicely and you know, but it really didn't get used. And there were other examples like that also where, you know, you try to kind of innovate, but I think to a certain extent, how we use the office is we know what we need and what we want, right? We want good meeting rooms, we want an availability of phone booths, we want ideally we would like gym or kind of fitness options there or nearby. And I don't think you need to innovate much further than that. Good F and B is always great, a great cafe or a great restaurant is always nice to have. But that's kind of how we see it now. And we we're quite practical when we kind of design a floor plan in the sense of how much revenue should we be generating and how do we get there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's fascinating. I've sort of been involved in various conversations recently with um with office developers talking about, you know, are we providing the right amenities? But I suppose it just keeps evolving.
SPEAKER_01But look also, you know, we rely on the buildings to do a lot of that heavy lifting. So 40 Leidenhorn, not to segue onto it, but it is a great example of the building. I mean, the amenities in that building I have never seen. Not in London, not in New York, nowhere. They have wellness, they have a whole forget about the kind of third-party fitness operators. They've put in place a whole kind of two-floored wellness studio of their own with Peloton bikes and with salons where you can get your hair and your nails done. The end-of-journey facilities are incredible. There's a rooftop bar with a terrace, which is stunning. There's another restaurant, there's a cinema room, there is a 200-person auditorium, which we run actually, which is beautiful. And actually, just the most incredible thing is when you walk in the building and you see these huge trees in the middle and the atrium, and it's just stunning. So we can afford to not, you know, to really, I would say, fit out our spaces and lay out our spaces in the most efficient ways, because in a lot of the instances, the buildings that we are in offer the amenities on our behalf.
SPEAKER_00No, it's a good time to talk about Leiden Hall. And it must have been one of the largest flex deals of of last year. I think it is it 48,000 square feet you have there?
SPEAKER_01It is, it is. I'm laughing in my head because when you're saying one of the largest, I'm thinking one of the longest because it and we laugh about it between us, but it took, I think, three and a half years to um from when the tender started to when we were up and running. It was well worth it, but um these things take so long.
SPEAKER_00So tell us how it came about, because there must have been very stiff competition for that space. I mean, it sounds it sounds pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_01Well, it came about initially because I had met Ilna, who works at New Ven, a couple of years earlier. She had come to visit our shortage space, and I think I had heard that she was running a process for a new building, and so I kind of did what any entrepreneur would do and wrangled my way into the process, which she willingly brought us into. And we we ended up winning it. And to be fair, I think at the time we won it mostly due to this focus that we had on the events and the programming and the community that again, largely after COVID, was no longer as relevant. But in a funny way, I think our own evolution as a business over the last three years, three, four years, has really lent us or got us to the point where we are the right operator for 40. Whereas actually, perhaps if we would have still been the business that they had selected in the beginning, I think we may not have been as polished or as efficient as we are today. So it's been an interesting journey. But I think I do think we won it because of that um the approach to community that we had at the time. And why did it take so long? Look, the building was being developed, so there wasn't, you know, an urgency there. I think both of us were not quite sure what we were doing. And, you know, they're very complicated to structure from a legal perspective. The amount of things that you want to think about that needs to end up going into that management agreement, and you can't build for all eventualities, you know, but there are so many things to think about. So I think we were just back and forth for a long time. I also think there was a moment of, you know, reshuffling for Huckle Tree where we were exiting some buildings and the market had heard and everybody was kind of raising eyebrows, and and you know, we did some some restructuring internally too, and that probably put some question marks on their mind. I I feel um and I still feel very much like I know we did the right thing and we made the right choices, but definitely that turbulence was tricky for a potential partner coming on board, if I'm honest. So, you know, it it was what it was, but I think it worked out well. There wasn't a delay from when the building, in particular our space PC'd from when Huckle Tree swiftly moved in. So the timing actually worked out exactly how it had to have done, but you know, the process is is is a long one.
SPEAKER_00And is your model moving from leases to to management agreements?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I mean, I think, you know, I've seen we've done several leases, and I think there are some that work really well, and there are some that are more complicated, and then even the ones that work well, there are moments where it's more complicated and you have to get it back to where it was. And for me, I would rather just take the approach of I'd rather take less risk and potentially take less profit because obviously you're splitting the profit, but ultimately have a less risky business. So I think for me, management agreements are great. The issue obviously is that you can't grow as quick as you would like when you are dependent on landlords to who want to kind of play ball. I always say if I wanted to take 10 leases today, I could go and do it today, and you know, it's so easy. But I think there's a hybrid option also, which is the hybrid lease, which more and more landlords are open to. And I think that also makes sense. And how does a hybrid lease work? Well, so you can obviously kind of you know structure it in many different ways. How I see it working generally is that we would pay a percentage of ERV and a guaranteed rent, and then there would be a profit share thereafter.
SPEAKER_00So working, I mean, effectively with the with the management agreement, you're working in partnership, you know, with the landlord. So, you know, it means that you need to work quite well together and have the same vision for the building.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. And I think the beauty of a four-year journey is that you know they really get to know who you are. I mean, I don't want them to all take four years, but yeah, definitely, you know, if it's four years or four months, they should entrust the operator that they kind of have the right strategy. But I think, you know, to your point, there are pros and cons of a management agreement. Like for me, who is somebody who is very much into the nitty-gritty detail when we're designing a new building. I don't love that in a management agreement I can't do exactly what I want with the design. My design, which is funny because my house, my home is so beige, but when we go into Huckle Tree's it's every colour under the rainbow, and I love that. And you can play that up or you can dial it down depending on the building and the part of town that you're in and who the clients are, etc. But you go into a huckle tree space and you'll know it's a huckle tree space because it's colourful, and I think that creates a happiness, and I want people to feel happy to come into work. So I don't love in management agreements that I can't do exactly what I what I would like, but you know, it's a toss-up, and I think there's always a happy medium to be found. There's a balance there, but very much, you know, you're getting into bed as a partner and you have to be aligned. I just think coming out of COVID, where there was so much misalignment between landlords and operators, that having that alignment actually, you know, and it could hopefully there's not another pandemic, but anything can happen in the world. And it could just be, you know, that the market has had a downturn and people aren't kind of taking space as they were before for whatever reason, but you want to be aligned.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I imagine you've had a very positive response to what you're providing at 40 Loden Hall.
SPEAKER_01Yes, no, we definitely have. It's really beautiful. We are a couple of months in and we are about 60% sold, which is great. Um, and I've no doubt that we'll be kind of fully sold within the next few months' time. It's really it's a lovely space and it's a great building.
SPEAKER_00And it's interesting with the city. I think you've got um Bishopsgate as well, haven't you? Yes.
SPEAKER_01Two on Bishopsgate.
SPEAKER_00I mean, the city really does seem to be changing, and uh it would be interesting to uh hear what you have to say on that because one of my recent podcasts was with Thomas Lay, who's the new chair of planning and transportation in the City Corporation, and they seemed, you know, they're so pro-development, they have destination city, you know, they want it to be a sort of 24-7 destination. And so you you know have got a mix of entrepreneurs, innovators, you know, working there. They're probably people who wouldn't have thought of being in the city a few years ago.
SPEAKER_01I mean, a lot of them aren't, for sure, and then a lot of them are businesses that that may have been here, you know, pre-COVID. I think the city has changed with, you know, it's been actually incredible to see the journey pre-COVID, you know, sure it was shortage, it was old street roundabout, etc. And I think a lot of that has just simply kind of migrated towards the city. The city is so busy, you know, we can't walk between our buildings without, you know, there's there are hundreds of people on the roads. And I think we're gonna see a lot of change coming to the city over the next few years positively in terms of kind of development science and whatnot. I have a statistic that somebody shared with me this morning, which is that um the city can see footfall of up to 600,000 people a day now, currently, and that that's projected to be, or some people are projecting it to be, close to a million people by 2040. And that is not including the people that, you know, are the people that live in the city, of which there are not actually that many. So it's very interesting. I don't know quite how that compares to pre-COVID, but it feels huge. It there's definitely a feeling of, you know, it is buzzy. You walk out into the um Special Fields Market, and it's just, you know, it's it's so busy. It's amazing. So I'm very all in on the city.
SPEAKER_00I think I am too, actually. You know, talking to Tom and you know his his vision for like more theatres, more leisure activities and you know, things to do is all is all very positive. And are you looking to expand the business?
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think that's the you know, the coming back to the thing that I learnt early on is that that growth must continue at all costs. No, we are, but again, you know, very much in the right partnerships with the right underlying structures, the right buildings.
SPEAKER_00But yes. And staying in the UK or looking at Europe and other destinations?
SPEAKER_01I'm very I'm almost like I've got kind of blinkers on. I feel like because we're in London, Manchester, and Dublin, it makes sense to develop in those areas. And I think that these three cities are great cities with a lot of demand, with a lot of activity, and so I don't feel the need to look further. I'm a very opportunistic person, so if something came in that was, you know, the right opportunity further abroad. I personally love Amsterdam and I'm dying to find a building in Amsterdam, if it made sense, of course, we would do it. But I think our strategic focus is just going deep into the cities that we are already in.
SPEAKER_00Well, it looks as if demand for flex is growing, so there are going to be a lot of opportunities, I think. Um so let's talk a little bit. I mean, we we talked at the beginning a little bit about being a female founder, and I just wondered, you know, there's so much conversation going on at the moment about, you know, diversity and real estate and you know not being enough senior women. And I just I just wondered whether you saw it as um as an advantage because you know you stand out or or a disadvantage.
SPEAKER_01I'm not sure that I think it's either. I do think it's all about, you know, the person and if they are somebody that people like to work with or not. And I mean most of us are kind of not, it's not binary, right? It's not like you're either somebody that people enjoy being with every day or you're not. You know, I think we all have our days of we're in a good mood and days where we're in a bad mood and the pressures are really kind of felt on our shoulders. But I don't think I find it either an advantage or a disadvantage. I think there are definitely moments where I feel like if I was a man and if I was more kind of growy with the agents and the brokers and I was out there at the pubs and whatnot, that that could have helped more on the growth side for sure. But equally, I feel like because I'm a woman, I feel like when I pester developers and landlords to meet with me who maybe I haven't spoken to in a year or two years, where I pester somebody to be brought in on a process, I almost, you know, am able to do that a bit more because I'm a woman and because maybe people feel like they want to help a bit more. I don't know. So I don't I think it comes with, you know, there's no it's not easy running a business full stop, is it? You know, no matter what we are. It's hard. But I do think that there is still, you know, the the diversity question is still a very fair point because there is there is still a lack of diversity, especially in in this industry.
SPEAKER_00And you've, I think, been pretty involved in campaigning for diversity and supporting diverse entrepreneurs. I mean, do you mentor? Do you do so actively get involved with young founders?
SPEAKER_01I do, and I love to. I love in particular, you know, helping female founders as much as I can, but I do mentor founders of of of both sexes. I we we do we've done a lot of things over the years. We were running an accelerator program for, and I think we did 10 cohorts of the program across London and Dublin that was focused on underrepresented founders, and we would help them formulate their business ideas and their business plans, and it would culminate in a demo day where we would introduce them to many investors, and they went on to raise tens of millions of pounds off the back of our accelerator program, and some of them have done very well. I think the return to work after the pandemic kind of put an end to that because it became very clear suddenly that it was much more about the bottom line and cost, and it tied in also with you know, we work and the failed IPO, and all of a sudden, you know, the whole industry kind of went from this is our revenue and this is our projected revenue to okay, what's your EBITDA today? And we all had to change the way that we worked, which was for the better. But certain things had to be sunseted, and I think that program was definitely one of them, although it was something that we were very passionate about at the time. What we do now, uh, which I love, is we have a partnership with Regents University, as I mentioned, in Regents Park. And as part of that partnership, there's kind of two parts to it. The first part is that we have taken their library, which is about two or three thousand square feet, and turned it into a mini Huckle Tree, and it's now called the Huckletree Innovation Lab. And it's just a really cool central point on campus of bringing the students together. But the other part of it is that we deliver the kind of real-world entrepreneurial programming for the students on campus to kind of complement the more, you know, the the courses that they're doing, which are more theoretical in nature. And part of that programming that we do is an entrepreneur in residence campaign. And I love being that entrepreneur in residence because I get to go there and I get to support the students and help them with their journey. I think the one thing that I can bring to the table is that I'm very direct and so I don't beat around the bush very much, which is, I think, a good thing when you know people need help kind of advancing their businesses. But it's also amazing to see the entrepreneurs today, and with the power of AI, how quickly they can translate a business idea in their head to an MVP that lives somewhere online. It's been actually an incredible kind of learning curve for me to see how they do it, and it has given me so much inspiration. So, yes, I still love mentoring startups, and I think it's just something that I always feel very passionately about.
SPEAKER_00And how can the people with money, the VCs and the corporates, sort of support these diverse entrepreneurs better? I mean, does Regent College sort of have a direct link to any of the funders?
SPEAKER_01I don't know if they do, but I think it's a good question. And it's one that I often ask my husband, because my husband works in venture capital. And I think the bottom line is they just need to invest in diverse teams. It's literally that simple. It's so easy, I think, to have a portfolio that is mostly run by male founders, and largely because their access to each other is easier in a sense. But I think you know, there are a lot of funds that are really making a very kind of concerted effort to make sure that their portfolio founders are diverse. Um, my husband's fund, for example, they have a lot of female founders in their portfolio, and I think they've, you know, but you have to be proactive in making that a part of your strategy. The bottom line is like there's a lot of campaigning that can be done, and there's a lot of you know upskilling. But if the funds themselves are not investing or not kind of mandating themselves to invest in a diverse portfolio, it all falls a bit flat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and um, the other, the other thing that gets talked about is that sort of women generally tend not to have the same confidence, perhaps, as uh, you know, a man has. And when they go for job interviews, they'll only go if they tick all the boxes, and the man might go along if he ticks two. So I'm just thinking that, you know, for somebody, you know, with an idea to actually believe that you know they can make it work and and go out and you know, find the funding and everything, it's you know, maybe more difficult.
SPEAKER_01But I also think there's you know, what you're saying there is also true for not just in the job interview context, but also for the differences between male and female founders when when we go to raise investment. Because male founders, and I've seen this firsthand, they will just, you know, they're all gonna be unicorns. Whereas we're much more conscious of like, I'm not gonna say anything that might not come true or it might not be true, and let me just give you my very conservative forecast, because at least I know I can stand behind that. And I actually think that does us a disservice because we're always going to be compared to the startups that are coming and you know, promising unicorn status. So I think there is also an element for us as women of we unfortunately have a role to play in leveling the playing field, I think, and and sometimes the role that we have to play is that we have to be comfortable being a little bit more bold. I think. But look, it's it's a there's there's a long journey. There's like lots of reasons I think why. Because we started we started a program called Fairer Funding Now and I think that was back in it was pre-COVID for sure. And at the time we were kind of saying, you know, for every dollar of investment money, you know, 97 cents goes to all male founded businesses. And I I actually, you know, don't know the stats, but I I don't think it's moved very far, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_00I think that's probably right, because things generally seem to be regressing a little bit on the on the female, it's only senior women in real estate. But I don't know how one does with that because it's the same with getting people to speak, you know, on panels and things. And I know all the property publications and event organizers try so hard, you know, to get as many women as they get men, but a lot of women won't do it unless they're 100% sure that they know the topic.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think there's another problem with that. You know, I got very annoyed on International Women's Day this year because about three or four different people reached out to me to ask me to uh speak on their panels. Listen, as a working mother, you know this, there's a reality. You need to make everything work. You need to make everything okay. If anything happens with the children, it's it's on your shoulders. You know, so we actually have much less time on our hands and we are forced to be much more efficient. I really fundamentally believe, and by the way, this this lends itself also to why I think I have I've always loved working with other women because I think we're much more, we're more focused, we have less time that we can waste. But I don't think it's right knowing that. And I think we get asked to speak on a lot of panels for diversity reasons, but where is the offer of pay? You know, that never comes. And that I don't I don't care. I don't care about the 500 pounds that I could get for working on a panel. I mean, it's always nice to have another 500 pounds, but it's not gonna be my reason or not. But it's the principle. And it's nice to be valued. 100%. And especially when you feel like the men are potentially being offered more than you, and this spans all industries, really. But I think you know, there are a lot of root causes that don't help.
SPEAKER_00No, I think that's right. So, I mean, as you've mentioned, you know, you have two children and I believe one on the way. I mean, how do you balance things? So, you know, you've got an important meeting and you know, one of the children is not well, can't go to nursery or it's hard.
SPEAKER_01I actually so tomorrow is a really good example because my children both finish school for the term and they both finish at midday. They're on separate sides of London, and I am sitting in a presentation with all my general managers about the business plans for each of their buildings for the next year that's not going to finish until 2:30. So I have no idea at this moment in time how my eldest is getting home from school and he does not go to school anywhere near our house. The truth is I don't have an answer to that. I find every day you have to be extremely you I don't know, you just need to every day is a bit of a stress, is the truth. There's not one day where where I feel like I'm not running somewhere.
SPEAKER_00Well, you obviously deal well with the stress. And if you could go back and speak to your younger self at the you know, right at the beginning of uh Huckle Tree before you actually even had your first uh space, what would you tell yourself now?
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. I think I would tell myself this is gonna be an amazing journey for you, and you are going to change as a person as a result because I have really changed. And it you know, it's not better or worse. I was I was younger, I was naive, I wasn't self-confident, I was very concerned about being accepted. And I think you know, you go through the process of running a business and your skin thickens a bit. But I the things that I've learned along the way, the people that I've met, the confidence that I've built, you know, I'm a different person than I was 13 years ago. And I think, you know, if you if you sometimes if you see that journey ahead of you, you realize that it kind of it's all worth the while, I think.
SPEAKER_00Gabby, that's terrific. And thank you so much. That actually was really inspiring. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed our chat.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Gabby, for talking to us. It really is inspirational to hear about Huckletree, how you've built the business, your plans for the future, and the amazing new space at Forty Leiden Hall. So that's it for now. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Please join us for the next Property She podcast coming very soon. The Property She podcast is brought to you by Mishcon Varea in association with the London Real Estate Forum and can be found at Mishcon.com slash PropertyShi along with all our interviews and programme notes. The podcasts are also available to subscribe to on your Apple Podcast app and on Spotify and whatever podcast platform you use. Do continue to subscribe and let us have your feedback and comments, and most importantly, suggestions for future guests. And of course, you can continue to follow me on LinkedIn and on Twitter at Property She for a very regular commentary on all things real estate, prop tech, and the built environment. See you again soon.