The Expansionist Podcast

Mary Magdalene: A Path To Presence

• Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake

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Could Mary Magdalene be a missing part of the Christ story? This question forms the heart of our exploration as we approach her feast day on July 22nd. While neither of us come from Catholic traditions, we recognize the profound wisdom in celebrating feast days that awaken our consciousness to spiritual truth—and Mary Magdalene holds truths too long overlooked.

Mary represents a pathway to transformation that embraces feminine wisdom and embodied spirituality.  When the Gospel of Mary was discovered in Egypt in the 19th century, it revealed a woman who understood Christ's message so deeply that male disciples questioned how Jesus could have shared such mysteries with her. Yet Jesus himself declared that wherever his story was told, hers would be told alongside it—a commission we've collectively failed to honor for centuries.

What might Christianity look like if we restored Mary Magdalene to her rightful place? If Jesus is understood as the Second Adam in theological tradition, might Mary represent the Second Eve—not replacing Mary the mother of Jesus, but complementing our understanding of feminine spiritual presence? The evidence suggests she continued as an evangelist after the resurrection, particularly in France, spreading a message of embodied, Spirit-led devotion. Her understanding of anointing—exemplified when she recognized the significance of Jesus's approaching sacrifice—shows spiritual insight beyond what other disciples grasped. When we embrace her witness alongside Christ's, we discover a more complete spirituality that honors both masculine and feminine expressions of divine wisdom. Ready to explore the full story? Join us as we uncover what traditional narratives have too often left untold.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelley Shepard and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit and love. Good afternoon, heather Drake. Good afternoon.

Speaker 2:

Shelley Shepard, it's so good to see you today. I feel like it's been longer than a week. I know it's only been a week since I talked with you last time, but yeah, it has been a week with Mary for sure. Already we are jumping into July, knowing that on July 22nd it is her feast day, and so you and I have just been talking about how do we honor her, how do we bring her front and center during this month to people that are listening, to people that are listening, but also maybe to pull back the veil of what she really means to us.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk for a second about the fact that neither you or I are practicing Catholics or part of that particular tradition, but there are things that we are learning from that tradition and even the idea of. I know that many wisdom traditions ask us to pay attention to feasts, ask us to pay attention to big celebrations and what it can bring into our consciousness, into our awareness, and so saying something like a feast of Mary Magdalene. This is exciting for you and I, because we are consciously heaping up, creating ideas, finding ways to celebrate, bringing into our remembrance who she was, who she is and how our connection with her really is a pathway to transformation.

Speaker 2:

I like that you use the word pathway. Can we jump there first and talk a little bit about what we mean by that? Growing up in our own faith traditions and being told that there's only one way right, that there aren't many paths, there's only one direct path to God. When we approach this space and this opportunity to maybe peek behind the curtain, between what Mary Magdalene was holding with Jesus, there's something that we were not told, there's something that we have not quite learned, there's information that was not written about her, and I wonder if, in the creating of the text, in the creating of the stories, in the inspiredness of that story, somebody got very zealous in how they wanted us to hear that story and so, consequently, that pathway, that entry point, that threshold, that knowing was sidebarred, can we talk about?

Speaker 1:

that I think it's essential too, that we also recognize that where we are right now is in the season of Pentecost, where we are very aware of lady wisdom, where we are very aware of the practice of what does it look like for us to live fully embodied, devoted lives, but following the prompting of the Spirit, following the wisdom that the Spirit reveals to us, following leadings that are not fast and written necessarily, but are full of life and goodness.

Speaker 1:

And this invitation into Spirit, I think, leads us into a beautiful witness of Mary Magdalene, who is full of the spirit, and we see the works that she does. We see again the faithful witness that she is as a follower of the path of Jesus, that she begins to be a way for us of going. What does it look like for me, not only as a woman, but not excluding my own womanhood, remembering the power that it is in our feminine thinking, in our feminine way of relating to the world, in our feminine glory, that we bring as part of the image of God into the way that we worship, into the way that we relate to the world. And I think that paying attention to the way that Mary did it is a beautiful again, a pathway. You could try this. Pay attention here, find this quiet place and remember what you have forgotten about, what it means to be a woman, confident and absolutely in love.

Speaker 2:

So let me see if I'm tracking with you the same way. So spirit is a path as well. Is that what you're saying right now?

Speaker 1:

Well, I mean, I think that you could say that, yes, but I wouldn't exclude spirit in any of the paths, because I don't know that we could find a path we're not spirit illuminating it for us. I think spirit needs to be on the paths that, any of the ones that lead to righteousness, any of the ones that lead to goodness, spirit has helped us on. And again, I think spirit is absolutely essential in all of our awakening, in all of our trying to follow, in ways that are deeply embodied, whole paths. I think they all contain spirit. I don't think we can get to them without the revelation and empowerment of the spirit. So I think that you can meet the spirit on many of those paths I wouldn't say all, because I'm not sure they're all headed in the same direction, not sure they're all headed in the same direction. But I find that spirit is so available that that attunement to the living word, to the energy that is all around us, to God who is with us, to that oneness, I think that's available in all these things. But I find that, looking at Mary as a pathway to this oneness, that leads to ultimate love, that leads to transcendent love, that leads to how we follow, even beyond the grave, how we follow, you know, into the practice of resurrection and ascension.

Speaker 1:

I think that she is a faithful witness and I think that I'm sorry that her story hasn't been larger, yes, that more people haven't heard, and so it's one of the things that you and I are going to do. Then We'll tell this story. In fact, lori Beth Jones told us, make what's beautiful the story, and so we are fully taking that permission and that charge and saying here is a beautiful part of the story that maybe we haven't heard yet, or maybe we heard but we forgot, or maybe we have to be reminded of that. There is a way to embrace our own femininity, to embrace that nurture and that wholeheartedness, the tenderness. Oh, I just see that as such a beautiful path toward a different relationship with ourselves and the world when it comes to following Jesus.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm. So are we just seeing ourselves in Mary Magdalene? In Mary Magdalene? Is that, when we peek behind the curtain of this oneness that she and Christ demonstrated, where sources have it that he often greeted her with a kiss, and maybe he greeted lots of women with a kiss. That wasn't necessarily captured, but in my holy imagination I can imagine this sort of thing. But are we seeing ourselves? Are we reaching all the way back to the first human in our own understanding, in our own remembering, in our own knowing, in our bones and saying, well, this moment of Mary Magdalene and Jesus as companions on a journey shifts everything that I've ever understood and known about who Christ is.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so based on that particular question, I bring to this thought that If Jesus is the second Adam, then who is the second Eve? Yep.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:

Good question. If that is what we are looking at going, it is not just men who hold the image of God that there is this spectrum that is needed for us to see the revelation, the light of Christ, that there is a wide variety that is needed to be able to say this is how good and how beautiful God is, then we need, if we needed a second adam, we need a second eve well, let's tarry there for a second.

Speaker 2:

You and I have both been educated that mary, the mother of jesus, is the second eve okay, so let's, let, let's hold that.

Speaker 2:

That could be too sure, sure, yeah. So for some people, you know, mary the mother of Jesus has become an elevated path to God or to Christ. But imagine that your mother right is Mary, mary, mary, the mother of Jesus, you're the second Adam. I can't really make that fit with what Jesus was trying to deposit into the hands, into the mind, into the heart, into the spirit of Mary Magdalene. Does that make sense, I think, in my holy imagination, as they're walking along the shoreline.

Speaker 2:

I don't think fixing fish was a one-time experience. Right, preparing fish, making breakfast. I can imagine that, over and over and over, there was a catch of the day and there was a meal and there was Mary Magdalene and Jesus breaking that bread, sharing that meal and talking about the things that Mary knew, that no one else knew. He was enchanted by her, by her story, maybe by her lineage, maybe by her family, I'm not sure. But in my holy imagination, if there's a bucket of fish being prepared for the disciples as they leave the boat, I can sure as heck see a meal that Jesus and Mary Magdalene are having, see a meal that Jesus and Mary Magdalene are having, and I think this is the dance, this is the divine dance, heather, that we get to talk about, because we can hear about Peter walking on the water.

Speaker 2:

We can hear about other characters, but for some reason, when we begin to insert Mary Magdalene into that telling the better story, the brakes go on. I don't get it. This just happened with me and my mom, so this is why it's just so fresh in my mind. It's like the brakes go on. It's like what are you doing?

Speaker 1:

Well, and to that I respond. This is exactly what Jesus told us to do. Wherever my story will be told, her story will also be told alongside of it, and so you and I have a lot of storytelling to do, because we've got time to make up, because people have forgotten to tell her story, or people have forgotten to illuminate the truth that she knew, or the grace that she embodied, or the love that she had and the kindness that she offered, not only to Jesus, but to the entire group of people that were with him, that nurture, and again, all you'd have to do is spend time thinking about what it would look like to stay at the grave of someone that you loved. That says so much about how deeply she was connected to the Christ. And so that idea of, even when he comes back and says, you go and tell, you go and tell, there is something so intentionally powerful about her particular witness that is needed for us to believe the power of resurrection and the ascension and I use those two words in conjunction, because it's not just resurrection from death, it is ascension to God. It is this ascended thought, it is this life of changing the way that we think, having higher thoughts, having bigger thoughts, having more expansive thoughts that allow us to join our minds into the mind of Christ. In fact, one of the apostles tells us let this mind be that in you that was also in Christ Jesus. We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend, and if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionistheologycom.

Speaker 1:

We are supposed to have a Christ consciousness, we are supposed to have a bigger mind. And how can we get that without the power of the Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit illuminating for us, without us finding a path to be able to say how do I pay attention to the present matter, to whatever is before me, and how do I sanctify it? How do I make it holy? I look to the Mary Magdalene who tells us that, before he goes to death, she recognizes these are the feet that are going to be pierced and she anoints them. This is the body that will be broken, and she brings healing to it. And so those are when I talk about Mary as a path.

Speaker 1:

That's what I'm talking about Paying attention to the fact that she had maybe empowered by the Spirit, maybe through her own learning, maybe through you know, I can't even imagine all the ways that she could come to those knowledges but she understood the power of anointing and in that she took the practical way of going. I know this is what this is and when I bring it to the Christ, I think this is where miracles happen, and if we are going to do greater works than the ones that were recorded, then we need to be busy about the things that caused the miracles to happen Clearly the Spirit. But to be able to go, we don't maybe need a reproduction of those exact miracles. We need different miracles, but we need miracles and we are people who, as children of God, are entitled to miracles.

Speaker 2:

There's a piece that is kind of stirring in me right now that if you're reading a story to your child and only half of the story is available, it might not have the impact that the full story would have. We also are holding this information that this is truly what happened in the life of Mary Magdalene is that a gospel was written in her name. She didn't write the gospel, somebody else wrote this, but they wrote it down based on what they heard or what they witnessed. And then it was buried and lost and burned in a cave in Egypt for a good long while 1800 something it was rediscovered. And so here you are as a parent, right, here's the story, here's the rest of the story that we get to unfurl and we get to hold.

Speaker 2:

And, yeah, some of the story is missing Water damaged, burnt, non-translatable, all the issues that they've had with this story in bringing it to us. But here it is and it's been here for a while, A good long while what? 40 or 50 years, I believe the translation. And yet there's something about Mary Magdalene that she not only poured out, but she expanded it. She didn't stop talking about Jesus. She most likely became an evangelist in Europe, particularly in France, particularly in France, and so if we forget her story and we don't hold it or shape it or expand that story, then we are leaving out. I believe, half of the Jesus story and that's why this is important for us to have these conversations is hmm, Jesus was half of the story and Mary Magdalene was the other half of the story. I'm going to hold to that. You can challenge me if you want to, but I'm going to hold to that. Why would I challenge you?

Speaker 1:

Well, there's lots of reasons to challenge that, I'm thinking but there's also a lot of joy in following that path and going. What would it look like and how many people could that include who didn't find themselves reflected in any of the other characters in that story, and how many other people could go? I could, I could relate to that, I could see myself in that, or even not see yourself in that and go, but I could see that as beautiful and that is a path I would want to follow. I could see that as holy, and so the invitation, I think, is into a widening horizon, into something that is expansive, but into something that is holy and something fully loving.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's all the goodness, and I think the purpose of that is ultimately, I think it's love. I think what she poured was love, right, yes, she poured it Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And she found ways, even with the brothers. You know, when they came against her in her moment of explaining what Jesus had taught her out of the Gospel of Mary, even in that moment she wept for them. She wept that they would consider even to think that she was making up something, that she was making up a story. None of this was ever told. Why would Jesus talk to a woman? Well, crying out loud? How many years had Mary Magdalene been traveling with this band of brothers? How many other women had been traveling with this band of brothers? How many other women have been traveling with this band of brothers?

Speaker 2:

You know, it's not like she just all of a sudden appeared on the scene and had some kind of secret sauce, you know, that needed to be shared. This is truly an engaging perception, and maybe even I will say deception, that we were handed half of the story and now, particularly you and I are here in this moment to say nay, nay, no more, no more of the half story. We want the full monty. Give us the entire ocean. We want to swim in that, we want to taste it, we want to know the anointing like mary magdalene knew it. I just included. You't ask permission.

Speaker 1:

I like it because I was thinking about that anointing and how it is full-bodied, how to anoint something. It's on your hands and it'll get in your nose and it'll get on something else, and I just see that's how goodness transfers the goodness that we see by evidence in the spirit but then gets in our hands and we're relieving people of burdens and we're undoing, you know, chains that bind people and we. This kind of anointing is breaking yokes and this kind of anointing is healing people. And this kind of anointing is that laying on of hands, that co-laboring with people into the bettering of the world. I see this as a practice, but also as a path that, when we talk about a relationship with God or of spirituality that we recognize this is an invitation into learning how to live. Yes, and I think the anointing is a way for us to remember, when you see someone in pain, that we could ask the Spirit and that we could be a part of the healing of the anointing for the whole world.

Speaker 2:

This is how the kingdom comes, and maybe this is a little bit of a diversion here, but we were talking in the pre-show about the situation in Texas and the loss and the grief and the heartache that brothers and sisters that we haven't even met are experiencing. I'm confident I didn't ask you this, but I'm confident that sometime over this weekend, this past weekend that you grabbed the anointing oil and that you anointed that situation and we have been anointing people that we've never met. But Spirit calls us to this anointing to be something that reaches beyond this human condition, into a realm. I believe that Mary knew. I believe Mary knew the realm and the anointing poured through her, and Jesus recognized this and said wherever her story is told, her name will be remembered. Wherever my story is told, her story will be told and she will be remembered. That's the path. The ancient path, the expansive path is to grab your bottle of oil, anoint yourself, anoint someone else and invite spirit, even invite Mary Magdalene to pray for us and with us.

Speaker 1:

I'm hopeful. In closing, I want to read the Magdalene's Blessing from Jan Richardson. It's a favorite of ours. You hardly imagined standing here. Everything you ever loved suddenly returned to you, looking you in the eye and calling your name. And now you do not know how to abide this ache in the center of your chest, where a door slams shut and swings open at the same time.

Speaker 1:

Turning on the hinge of your aching and hopeful heart, I tell you this is not banishment from the garden. This is an invitation, a choice, a threshold, a gate. This is your life, calling to you from a place that you could have never dreamed. But now that you have glimpsed its edge, you cannot imagine choosing any other way. So let the tears come as anointing as consecration, and then let them go. Let this blessing gather itself around you and let it give you what you will need for the journey. You will not remember the words. They do not matter. All you need to remember is how it sounded when you stood in the place of death and heard the living call your name. She's calling our name. It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionistheologycom.