Illuminating The Sacred With Laurie Brock

What if the holiest things in your life aren’t on an altar but on your kitchen shelf, folded in a quilt, or humming across your lawn? We sit down with Reverend Lori Brock—priest, author, and competitive equestrian—and uncover how ordinary objects become gateways to grace.

Lori shares how a simple question from a priest cracked open a vocation she had never seen modeled for women. That thread runs through our whole conversation: why representation matters for girls in the pews, how to unlearn the secular–sacred split, and what it means to name our homes as holy ground. We dig into her practice of “letting objects testify,” a mindful way to ask not if something is sacred but how it is sacred—whether it’s an inherited skillet, a vacation ornament, or a quiet electric lawn mower that turns yard work into prayer.

Advent frames the spiritual terrain: waiting is uncomfortable, thresholds are tight, and anger can be holy because it leads us to buried grief or long-silenced power. Lori’s stories with horses bring this to earth. Grooming, hoof picks, and the trust of a prey animal reveal a living catechism of vulnerability, consent, and care. Along the way, we talk about misogyny dressed up as theology, the courage of women at the first Easter, and how to discern which objects to keep, which to bless and release, and which to let teach us one last time.

Come for the theology you can hold in your hands and leave with a practice you can live today. If this conversation stirred something in you, share it with a friend, subscribe for more expansive faith talks, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Laurie M. Brock is an Episcopal priest, competitive equestrian, and author of three books. During her time in seminary, she worked as a chaplain in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and has continued her work in trauma chaplaincy with the Lexington Police Department in Kentucky. She is a retreat leader and guest essayist for several online and in-print devotionals.

www.broadleafbooks.com

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelly Shepard and Heather Drake. At each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices, and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit, and love. Good afternoon, Heather Drake. Great to see you. Good afternoon, Shelly Shepherd. I'm so grateful to be here. And we have a wonderful guest today, so we're really excited to have the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Yeah, I want to introduce the Reverend Lori Brock before we get started here on the podcast. The Reverend Lori Brock is the author of Souvenirs of the Holy, where God hides holiness. Fascinating discussion for uh for us today. Hiding holiness. Also, horses speak of God and and God, grace, and horses, as well as a contributor to over a dozen anthologies and devotional books. As the rector of St. Michael's Episcopal Church in Lexington, Kentucky, Lori remains connected to the day-to-day lives of the faithful. She is a frequent contributor to books and online spirituality resources, as well as a speaker at local national events about faith. Lori graduated from the University of Southern Mississippi, obtained her law degree at the University of Alabama, and received her Masters of Divinity from the General Theological Seminary in New York City. Since ordination, she has served churches in Mobile, Alabama, and Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Lori lives in Lexington, Kentucky, and is a competitive equestrian with American saddlebreads, training at Wing Swept Farm. She is engaged to Steve Panky. Did I say that right? Panky. Also an Episcopal priest and Alabama fan. So welcome to the Expansionist Podcast. It's great to have you with us today, Lori.

Calling To Priesthood Without Role Models

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Thank you. It's so great to be here. We're here to talk about your book. And it seems like we can talk about lots of other things too. It's the beginning of the season of Advent, and we have connection there. And we're three women in ministry who are talking about what it means to live embodied in our faith and also practice expansive theology for us to be able to invite the spirit to allow us to reimagine and for us to connect not only with ourselves, but with the goodness of God that is all over. And so we started a conversation right before uh in like a pre-show. And I didn't want to pass it up and I wanted everyone to talk about it because as a priest, as a woman who's a priest, I asked a question like, who, what little girl says, when I grow up, I want to be a priest? And your answer was that didn't happen to me. And so let's talk about how does somebody who grows up maybe not seeing a woman in a priesthood decide as an adult that I hear the call, that is the vocation for me.

Doors Opening And Discernment

SPEAKER_02 3:06

And and not only not seeing woman as a priesthood, growing up in a tradition where women were not allowed to be, I call it authorized leaders of the church because women, even when women are not ordained, they're still leading in the church. Yes. Um, but I grew up in a tradition where women, you know, were not authorized leaders. So they couldn't be pastors, they couldn't preach, they could, you know, they but they taught Sunday school and they did all of that other amazing work that is so necessary. So I grew up in that tradition. When I went to college, I took the spiritual but not religious route, which for me meant I just didn't go to church on Sundays because I was sleeping in because I was at college. And then I went to law school at Alabama and had some very good friends of mine uh talk about the Episcopal Church to me to say, oh, you know, we think you would really like it. And and Canterbury Chapel in Tuscaloosa is where I uh went and uh was became Episcopalian there. I love the fact that I asked the priest on one of my first two or three visits there at a coffee hour about what does the Bible say about Satan? Um, and Father Woodson said, Well, we're not really sure about that. And I and I thought I've I've never heard a church have the courage to say we don't know. Um and my last year of law school, Father Woodson asked me, had I ever considered being a priest? And I absolutely said no, because I have grown up in a tradition that that just was not an option. And so I think how people begin to envision themselves in an embodiment that they didn't grow up with is that somebody makes the suggestion. And I think that when that happens, when it is uttered into the world, then the Holy Spirit sort of says, okay, let's let it take root. And um and about three years into practicing law, I remember still involved in the Episcopal Church, I remember just talking casually to another priest in my current church, in my current church then about, oh, you know, my priest in some when I was in law school said this, and and this other priest said, Well, you know, I think that's a conversation worth having. And again, and I would say the rest is history. I mean, I just I I went through, we have a pretty um, pretty standardized process in the Episcopal Church. So I like I didn't just say, like, I'm gonna be a priest, and then I was ordained the next day. You know, you have to be interviewed by by people and and you know, sort of test the call kind of language. And I remember thinking really that the end of this call was going to be no. And the the doors just kept opening. And that's always to me a wonderful image of following the path of God is, you know, when we keep walking and the door eventually opens to walk through it, and then continuing to walk until we meet a door that's finally closed, and then that's where we get to rest for a while or stop for a while. And the doors continue to be open. So uh I finally actually believed I was called to be a priest the summer after my first year of seminary. So I think like the whole, my whole first year of seminary, still kind of believing, well, yeah, I think they kind of got this wrong. And I don't know. So, and you know, I had a moment with a um a woman when I was serving doing an internship as a chaplain in the hospital, and I just remember thinking, like, oh, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. Now, what's amazing is uh at St. Michael's, because I've been there 15 years, I haven't I have young children who've grown up, and their parents will be like, now that they, you know, they had uh, I had some parishioners went to vacation and they went to an episcopal church, and both of the priests were men, and their seven-year-old daughter looked at their paths and were like, why are there men as priests? Like it was just a whole so representation matters, and I cannot stress that enough in churches. Like it matters that that women are in leadership position. It matters that uh women are on committees that make decisions because those six-year-old girls see that. And there, the world is hard enough. Don't give them toxic sexism to undo in the church. They're, you know, they're gonna see it enough. Let them see themselves embodied um in those leadership because I had to undo that. I mean, I didn't, I had to completely undo that.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And what a process that is to unravel. Oh my gosh, yes.

unknown 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

The work of the Holy Spirit is never ending with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

And it's a lot, you know, it's a lot of work. And so, you know, Steve, who's my fiancee, you know, he's a white male, you know, he grew up sort of in high school, kind of knowing he wanted to be a priest. And that call was affirmed. He grew up in the Episcopal Church, too. But I mean, it was just we've talked sometimes about how different our experiences were and still are in the church because of our gender differences.

Representation And Undoing Toxic Sexism

SPEAKER_01 8:28

What a beautiful time to converge around Advent, too. Uh uh speaking about gender differences and and how as women we approach a season of darkness and a season of waiting and a season of practicing the holy. Um, one of the things that I noticed in the book that uh Shelly had mentioned earlier in Souvenirs of the Holy was reframing or re-evaluating things that were maybe in some classifications would be considered orn ordinary for you to be able to look at that and go, Oh, wait a second, this is a sacred marker. This is something holy. And what does it take or what can a person practice in order to allow their vision to be able to see these things? Is there a filter that we can put on?

All Things Sacred Not Secular

SPEAKER_02 9:12

I don't know that there's a filter. I, you know, the impetus for the book was I had a parishioner come to me and they had been to the Holy Land and brought back, you know, some icons and things and said, Oh, you know, I'd love for you to bless these. Great. You know, bring them after search Sunday, I'll bless them. And I've blessed them. And then afterwards, they said, Oh, I'm so glad that I'm now gonna have holy things in my home. And I just thought, I thought expletive. I won't say this so you don't have to believe it, but I thought expletive, the church has messed this up again. Like we have, we have clearly delineated this line between secular and sacred, as if God is not in everything, as if everything in our lives is not imbued with some presence of God. And it just made me angry to think that this wonderful, faithful person thought that the things in their home weren't holy because it didn't have like the face of Jesus on it, or it didn't, you know, it was in the shape of a cross. And uh and I started to just think, well, how why have we done that? Now, I think part of why we do that is a power thing. Um, the church historically is a fan of sort of holding on to power. And if we can hold on to power, that only certain things are holy, you know, cha-ching, you know, there's a market in that. I also think that the home is a very feminine embodiment of the world. I mean, when you think about historically where women have um nurtured and had authority and had power, it's the kitchen, it's the home. And that's, you know, there's there's shades in there, some problematic, some wonderful. But what does it do to be able to look at a cast iron skillet and know that that cast iron skillet is a holy relic of stories of your family, of the food that has been cooked in there? Um, what does it do to look at quilts? Um, you know, I'm from the South. No one buys a new quilt. We all inherit our quilts. Um, but to know that that story is a beautiful embodiment of what it means to for God to sort of stitch together and remake and reuse things in our lives, because I think redemption is the greatest miracle of God, quite honestly, that that something can be terrible and tragic, and that God and the Holy Spirit can get in our lives and reframe and heal so that because we grew up in a family where perhaps we were never heard or we were abused, that becomes a quality that God can help us heal into people being really aware of listening or outcasts. Um and and I so part of it was I think being willing to see that there is no such thing as secular, that it is all sacred. When we get to that place, I think then the question becomes, how is this sacred? Instead of is it sacred, how is it sacred? And different things are sacred in different ways. I mean, I I don't care for yard work, so I will probably not find anything holy in a lawnmower. But I know people who love yard work. And my neighbor loves to mow his lawn. And he talks about when he mows his lawn, it is a time that he can he can pray. And I never considered that until I was talking to him one day. He got new lawnmowers. He was telling me all about it. And of course, he was using terms I was like, I don't know, turn it on and go. But um, but he liked it because it was an electric lawnmower, so it was a lot quieter. And he said, This just allows me to be present to pray. And I think as I as I care for this lawn, as I care for the land and this space that um that his grandchildren play in, that that I am tending this garden and I pray about the people who play on it. This and I just it was like, wow. I mean, so I don't know that it's a it's a skill to develop as much as a recognition of, oh, it's all sacred. And what is sacred? How can this object talk to me about an aspect of God?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Can we go there? In the in the book, you talk about listening to objects and you encourage the readers to let the objects testify um to an object's story. You know, what does it what does the practice of listening to an object's story actually look like in a mindful, sort of spiritual way? And how can we know if we're listening to truth or just projecting our own feeling onto it?

SPEAKER_02 14:07

I'm not sure projecting our own feeling onto it isn't truth in its own way. Um I I think if I if I have an object that I am listening to, I part of what I would say is what is the object you're paying attention to and what is its history? So I would sort of almost tell people to start with what seems secular. What's its history? You know, was this your mother's, was this a parent's?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

And we're talking, we're not we're not talking about crosses or we could, but I would say religious symbols. We're actually talking about a skillet or shears or pruning tools or you're talking about something ordinary here, right? So we're not no so just for the listening audience, you know, we're we're not talking about our stack of of of sacred texts sitting on the desk, you know. But like how do you how do you listen to what the quilt you know is speaking? How do you how do you listen to what those those ordinary tools are are trying to say in a spiritual way?

Letting Objects Testify

SPEAKER_02 15:14

When I was started working on the book, I would find something. And a lot of times it wasn't it wasn't a cognitive like, oh, I'm gonna go find a thing and write a chapter about it. But I remember thinking being sitting in a room and thinking, if I could only pick up three things out of this room and save them forever, you know, hurricanes coming. I grew up, you know, I lived in hurricane voice. So, you know, if I what three things would I get? And why would I get them? Um and that almost always got me into a place where I could think about the emotions that were attached to those things, the stories that I remembered, um, the and how and were there were there steps into maybe the biblical or saint stories in the world that we that I could think about. Um and so, you know, I think about what are what are the three things? And that's a place to start to walk into your room. Because I mean, we all have stuff that we don't necessarily find an attachment to. I mean, I um I'm sitting here at my desk and I don't necessarily have a profound attachment to the roll of scotch tape that's on this desk. I mean, I could probably work with it, but if I knew that I had to get out of this house in 10 minutes and I could take three things, I will not pick that roll of scotch tape up. But I will definitely pick up um, you know, my grandmother's cast iron skillet. That would go with me because it just um it has such a story in it. Um, so I think part of it to me is what are the meaningful things to you? I know that we're in Advent, and uh a lot of my clergy siblings are gonna be like, oh, don't put your Christmas tree up. I'm like, look, life is hard enough. If you want to decorate your house at the Thanksgiving, you do you. But what happens as you're putting up the ornaments on your tree if you if you let that ornament tell you the story? And part of that is that you have to tell the story. So if you are having to explain that ornament to somebody why you have this ornament, and sometimes that explanation is gonna be we needed some, I needed some green balls to hang on the tree or some red ones. But my guess is most of us have ornaments that when we put on those trees, there's a story behind it. You know, maybe you got this when you were on vacation, you know, with your parents, and it was the last time you were on vacation with your parents before your father died, and there's that story. What does that, what does that ornament tell? What are the markers of how you remember getting it? How has it been present in your life? What emotions does it bring up? And I will always tell people stay with that emotion. We are so quick in our culture to go go into our head with logic. Let that emotion stay there. I think some of the most important testimonies that objects give to us are the emotions we don't want to feel. The grief, the disappointment, um, the heartbreak. It's so much easier, I think, to offload those onto things than it is to carry them in in our souls because those are hard emotions to carry.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Um I noticed like throughout the the book that you um name holy places aren't necessarily geographical. And in what you had just said, like that that there is a place of joy, longing or grief, and uh, the practice of naming these places as holy and receiving that as the gift. Um, for those of us who are learning to expand our theological or our spiritual imaginations, how would you recommend that we cultivate that to have a life spacious enough to uh name or to be aware of a threshold when it appears?

SPEAKER_02 19:14

I find those thresholds when I get really mad and aggravated, usually when I'm just like, you know. Um when I when I get into a place where I feel like I'm stuck, and I and I, you know, and I it's kind of one of things I almost can't explain, but I feel like there's just like I there's this decision that I want to make, but I can't make it, or there's this thing that I need to have happen, and it's like, oh, nothing is moving, nothing is going the way I want it to. Um, I feel emotionally, it feels like wearing a pair of jeans. It's like just a little bit too tight. Like every person knows them. And and your immediate response to that is I have to do something. Like, oh, these jeans are too tight. I need to lose 10 pounds. No, sometimes something is too tight because. It doesn't fit anymore because you have changed. And it takes time to sit in that discomfort.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

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Advent, Waiting, And Holy Discomfort

SPEAKER_02 20:27

I think one of the great lies that modern religion has said is that faith is always comfortable. And I think the really important places of faith are the discomfort places, the places we want to get out of. And that's when I think God says, stop and feel what's going on. Maybe you feel stuck, maybe you feel angry. My therapist loves to say anger is always a positive emotion because it will either get you to grief or it will get you, it will get you to the power that you needed to find in yourself. And women, we're how many of us were raised with no one likes an angry woman? You know, anger is a holy emotion. And I think when I feel that, that is a moment for me to stop and say, this space is a holy space. It feels uncomfortable. I don't want to be here. My jeans are too tight. Usually my bra doesn't feel good. I mean, there's any number of things that are annoying. And yet that's when I know God is like, stop. Stop trying to go forward, stop trying to go backwards, stop and feel what you need to feel. And remember that God is with me in that space. And there's not a good way out of it. I will say that. Like I always say that we, you, you sort of find yourself like, oh, I think I can breathe today. Um, but it's just a hard place to be. But that's when I have to stop and really pay attention to being on holy ground, that that's a holy space. It is, I think, when we're in Advent, you know, we are waiting. You know, imagine this as women in our minds. Mary is in literally her last month of being pregnant. My sister, when she was pregnant with all four of her children, said that the ninth month she was pregnant, she would tell people that she was in her 737th month of being pregnant. Like she was so tired of it. It's she's, you know, you're just uncomfortable. You're waiting, you're just, you're, you know, change is coming, but you don't know exactly what that's gonna look like. That's where we are in Advent right now. And I think all of us have those moments in our lives when we are waiting for God to birth something into our lives. And and that birthing process is gonna be messy and holy. And then we're gonna have this new thing that we don't really know what to do with. Um, and and so we have this new thing. And so it's not, you know, it's not a clean, effortless process. It's a messy process, it's a hard process, it's a painful process, and it is one of the most holy processes um and journeys that we make. And I think women have a particular insight into that process because we do that physically with our bodies or can do that.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

So, so Lori, is this book um is this book going to make people angry or holy?

Community Invitation And Support

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Um both, I hope. I I do, you know, I hope that people what I hope is that people don't read it and go, oh, okay, that's great. I mean, I hope that they go find things in their own life. Um, I, you know, I hope that they look at the scars on their own body and let the scars tell them something about survival and what it meant to survive. Um, I hope that people become willing to say, it's okay that I don't want this thing in my life anymore. Um that's I think that's part of seeing things as holy, is it we we also outgrow things. There's there are things that have told us their story and and we're okay with letting that story go, you know, and take it to a place that needs your stuff or that can get rid of it for you. Um I this book is not a get rid of all the stuff, and it's not keep all the stuff. It is maybe be a little more discerning about the things we have in our lives and the things that need to be functional that we have because we have to mow the lawn, great. And the things that we have that maybe are functional, let them tell, let them tell what they might have to say about life or where we are in our lives.

Anger, Thresholds, And Growth

SPEAKER_00 24:47

I I wonder you you mentioned uh in the pre-show that well, uh also in your bio that you you spend time with horses. Can you share an example of where this ordinary, you know, your day-to-day as a as a uh a horse woman riding, preparing the horse, taking care of the horse, getting the vet there, you know, all the things that go along with it. Um can you can you share one piece of your own ordinary life where the the horses, for example, um speak to you in holy ways?

Women’s Leadership And Courage

SPEAKER_02 25:28

I did that in two books, so I'm glad to do that. Everything about horses speaks to me in a holy way, because that is just where I can most clearly experience God. Um and and that is my thing. I mean, I always tell people if you're not a horse person, doesn't mean you're not Christian, just means we have different ways. Friends of mine experience that in baseball. That is not me. I love um grooming a horse is one of the things that horses cannot do alone. So if you see horses in the field or horses that are feral, they will they will always allow a horse that they trust to groom them. Um horses are naturally prey animals, which means they're always a little heightened about not being somebody's dinner. So all of that goes to say that when I brush a horse, when I um am through riding and I brush a horse, and I'm like, it is a time of immense gratitude that this creature has trusted me because humans are we're the alpha predators, um, but also that they are trusting me to be present with them in a way that they have to have, and they have learned to let their guard down and be vulnerable to be groomed because a horse can't like reach its own withers or its own back end, so all those things because of their size. And it is such a profound reminder to me that existing in this world means we have to be vulnerable and how hard that is to do. And I get that sermon preached to me every time I ride because you know, I brush the horse down. I mean, I'm picking up its hooves to pick it up, you know, to pick out the dirt from its hooves and its horseshoes. It it is it can't move, you know, it it and it trusts me to do that. I mean, think about that. That, you know, just that trusting of this animal that that has made a decision to do that. I mean, I, you know, horses, animals have a fair amount of their own mindset. I've ridden enough horses to know some of them are more hard-headed than others. And yet they've they've decided like you are a person I want to be in community with. And I am always reminded of that. And I think about like I find great satisfaction in cleaning hooves with a hoof pick. And again, this this simple tool of of metal and plastic is just an embodiment of an act of trust and and to and to and care, you know, because it on no hoof, no horse. Um, but in that moment of being able to, and the things I use, hoof picks, brushes, curry combs, um, when I wash the horse, soap them down, how all of those things are are holy tools that God has given to humans so that we can care for these magnificent creatures who put their trust in us um to keep them healthy and whole and shining.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Thank you for that, Imagery. You're welcome. All the horse lovers out there that will listen to this will will appreciate um not just this um the book of the holy, but um maybe dig into some of your other your other writings too. So thank you for that. I have one more question before we close, but I'm gonna go to you, Heather. I know you've probably well, it doesn't really have much to do with the book, but it has everything to do with being a priest. Okay, I talked about it. That's important. Well, I I wanted to get your thoughts on this, um, on the Archbishop of Canterbury, uh, Sarah Mullele. I might not be saying her name accurately. Um and just your thoughts when you were talking about you know, girls that grow up not seeing women leaders. And so here uh we have in our presence uh an Episcopalian priest, so I feel like I can I can ask the source about this. Um the the notion that after what four or five hundred years she's the first woman. Um when when you heard that and and and you got that news, um what was that like for you? And then also um this division now that it seems to be causing in the Anglican community a little bit. Like, what are your thoughts on that if you're able to share that publicly?

Horses As Teachers Of Trust

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Oh, I am. I there's a there's a pre-shortage, and I'm yeah, I would say there's a pre-shortage and I'm tenured, so I have all the opinions. Uh okay. I was I was really shocked. I mean, I was surprised and then not because I think one of the reasons that she is Archbishop of Canterbury is that she has, and this is going through right, I've never met her, but and and I don't know her, but just from things others have said to me about her or our news reports. Um the church has been deplorable. There's just no other word about it. The church has been deplorable about dealing with emotional, sexual, and physical abuse by clergy. And that is not just the Anglican church, the Roman Catholic Church, all the churches. It has been excused. And I don't think the church should just be a safe place. I think the church should be the safest place.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Um, and I speak as a woman who was sexually harassed by uh a my rector for three years. And when I, you know, when I would tell the bishop, when I would tell people about it, it was, oh, that's just how he is. Oh, there's really not anything we can do. You need to go get another job, and all this. And so all I will say is he nothing, there was nothing happened to him. And I carried the entire brunt of that. And my story is not unusual. Um, where God hides holiness, which I think is out of print now, but that book is my story of that experience. And when I have had so many women read that book, and I would get, I mean, I still on rare occasions or on regular occasions get emails from women or missed messages on social media who've gone through this. So I think one of the reasons that she is archbishop is that she was clear about the fact that the church should be one of the safest places. So to the people who have a problem with a woman Archbishop of Canterbury, my question is where the hell were you when priests were raping children? Where the hell have you been when clergy were taking advantage of women, young women and young men in vulnerable positions? Where were you when the church was abusing and abusing and abusing people? Because if you weren't showing up then, sit down. No one wants to hear your opinions now. That just is, I just I have preach, preaching. I just I have no tolerance for, oh, but she has a vagina. You know what? You have let the church abuse women for thousands of years. Don't talk anymore.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

And I just Is that the Kentucky fire in you right now or the Alabama fire?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Oh, I I'm I'm part redneck, so that's the redneck fire in me. But I just, I just have a like, it's like, oh, she's the woman, we're gonna clutch our pearls about it. And I'm like, where was all this pearl clutching when when the church was being just horrible to people? I mean, I have people that come to St. Michael's to try church, and and they they are so surprised that they're at a church that's open and affirming, and they tell me things that have happened to them in church. Um, you know, and I am it just breaks my heart to think there are thousands, if probably not millions, of people in the world who are not part of a faith community because they have been so abused and their abusers were then made bishop or not, and they don't feel safe. And I just where the day that I hear that kind of response to that, that I have heard to women's ordination or for that matter, LGBTQ plus uh full inclusion, then we will have then you can sit at my table and talk. But until then, don't. Just don't with me.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good answer.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

I love how clear you are at women. Just don't with me. I just don't. I just no. I'm not sure. Welcome to everyone talks. Sure. Mary was saying the same thing. Just don't with me. I just know.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

I that's just I'm just like, well, and I listened to it and I'm just thinking, like, well, I'm so glad that you had this much horror when, you know, this I just and it's I don't have much about tolerance with it. And I I think it is, I think it is a I at the end of the day, I think that this is what uh misogyny wrapped up in theology looks like.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

And I know I know you don't have a crystal ball, but will will this will this create a division in the Anglican community?

Women As Living Souvenirs Of The Holy

SPEAKER_02 35:00

I I don't I mean that's a good question. I I think that part of I I th I hope it does not. My sense is that if if if LGBTQ l didn't do it, then this won't. Um because at the end of the day, if every woman walked out of every faith community in the world, there would be no practice. It would there would just be no church. So I so I I do wonder, you know, about how that really is gonna play out. I mean, I I do wonder how, you know, all of the these bishops and priests that are, you know, scandalized because there's a woman in a position of leadership and and servant leadership at that. I mean, um I I wonder how many women are gonna be like, wait a minute, well, who then who do you think's gonna fix your fix the church potlucks for you? So I wonder what that's gonna look like. I really hope it, I really hope it causes women to sit down, to stand up and say, take an assessment of of the amazing way that Jesus empowered women, which is my whole other thing, is I I think I could almost understand it if there were no women in the Bible, but let's be honest, if it weren't for women, we would not have a faith because the men weren't certainly not there on Easter Sunday morning. You know, the men didn't venture into the darkness of a first century graveyard where, as I was saying earlier, there's no perpetual care, there's no artificial light. Graveyards were by and large pretty dangerous places for people to go. And the women went there. The women went there with courage and hope, and probably exhausted because they were grieving and crying and worn out, and they went. When a man can do that, talk to me about it. But in my opinion, there should have never been a time when women were excluded from church leadership. Agreed. Preach.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

So just could we in our in our holy imagination and expansion of expansionist theology, could we stretch that souvenirs of the holy are actually women ourselves?

Closing Blessings And Book Support

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Absolutely. And in fact, I very deliberately uh picked items that that were very uh female focused, cast iron skillets, quilts. Um, I talk about the women of G's Bend and the quilts. Please, if you uh read the book, go explore G's Bend and the women, that artwork there. Uh garden shears, you know, sort of gardening. Actually got that one weirdly enough from if you watch The Handmaid's Tale, uh, you know, I know, yeah. But you know, the fact that she would be in her greenhouse, like that was a place, and I was like, wow, you know, so just the idea of how many things, you know, we are women are, I mean, all humanity is sort of a a an embodiment of God's holiness. And I think women are just we're, you know, we're always told what's wrong with us. You know, we're too fat, we're too thin, we're we're we're, you know, we're too old, we're, you know, all these things. We are embodiments of God's love as we are now. As we are now. Like wear makeup if you want to, don't wear it. Get your hair dyed, go to your whatever, but but love who you are because it took a woman and God to bring Jesus into the world. Women own that holiness.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Thank you so much. Thank you for for dropping in there when it wasn't really in the book. But uh just uh have been holding that space with her for for a while now, since October, but um just kind of watching it and seeing these similar places through church history that have had to step around or you know, pretend isn't there or is not happening. So so thank you for for taking us there from your perspective. And I so appreciate your your time here today um with us. And it's great to meet you. And I just pray that your book is uh enjoyed by many. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

I do too. Thank you. Um, I'm so glad to to talk meet with you and discover your podcast and certainly share it. And um, I do ask uh if your listeners have read the book or or do read the book, if you would go, as much as I'm not a fan of Amazon, it really helps. Um, all all writers who are writing for smaller presses, it really helps to go leave reviews, even if you say just really like this book or whatever. So if you've got writers that you love, um, because those all work into the metrics, um, and you Know the the reality is I think some of the best religious writing in our country is not being produced by the big publishing houses. It's being produced by these really wonderful independent presses, these smaller presses, the res these religious presses, of which Broadleaf is one. And so that is a way that you can support them.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

We'll leave um links in the show notes for people. So thank you. Thank you again for your time here. It was wonderful and for your passion and for rescheduling with us and for all the things that had to be done in order for this to happen. Thank you. Well, I'm so excited. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

And uh blessed Advent for us who are entering into that season. And uh yeah, just a time then we get to be present to the holy that is going to be born into the world and cause a lot of trouble when it happens. Yay!

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yay! The trouble that will be happening. You for the Christ that will come. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much, Lori. Congratulations on your wedding after Advent, all that stuff. Thank you so much. Bless you. It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheology.com.