Name The Hold: A Conversation With Laurie Beth Jones

What if your spiritual life had a map you could actually see and use? We sit down with bestselling author Lori Beth Jones to explore the “21 holds of spiritual ascent,” a vivid framework that turns vague struggle into clear, actionable steps. Instead of abstract advice, Lori gives us memorable visuals: the social hold as a carousel that looks like motion but goes nowhere, the cargo hold as overstuffed schedules and judgments, the withhold as a famine of your own voice, and the chokehold that steals breath and agency.

From there we cross the threshold—the first crack of light under a door—into upward movement. We talk about the tiny toehold that changes direction, the throwhold that requires trust, the sold hold that commits you to what’s next, and the bold hold that asks you to reach for the moving train. Lori expands on the gold hold, where values realign toward what lasts, and on the stronghold, wold hold, and behold—the places of support, clearing, and awe where you finally see you’ve been held all along. We connect these ideas to breath, voice, and the courage to take up space, especially for women taught to fold, shrink, or leave the table. Staying at the table becomes a practice of freedom.

You’ll also hear how this framework becomes a practical game and spiritual practice, including the “wonderful what-if rabbit,” a playful prompt that opens imagination and reveals hidden thresholds. Heather shares a powerful blessing for climbers, and we each name a hold we’re releasing right now—like the cargo hold of an overloaded calendar—to make room for depth and creative work. If you’ve been craving language for where you are and a nudge toward your next step, this conversation offers both clarity and companionship for the climb.

If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show. Then tell us: what hold are you naming today, and what toehold will you claim next?

Transcript

Welcome And Framing The Conversation

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices, and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit, and love.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Good afternoon, Heather Drake and Lori Beth Jones. How are you two ladies today?

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Wonderful. I'm excited to be here, and we're here today with the extraordinary Lori Beth Jones. And I'm so excited about a conversation we're gonna have or on a new writing that she is doing or a new thought that she is cultivating and curating. And I just think it's gonna be a brilliant conversation, and I'm really excited to make sure that everyone that wants to or is curious about it can hear what we have to say.

Why The 21 Holds Were Born

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Yeah, so welcome back, Lori. We've had you here on the Expansionist Podcast before. And um, you know, all the all the ways that you have placed your your words, your writing, your thoughts, your intentions into the hands of millions of people uh down through the uh down through the years to um to bring us your hottest, most interesting, your most passionate uh ways of seeing uh through the lens that you have. Thank you. Thank you for all these years of um all your books, 14 books now. And I I understand that there's a few that, a few manuscripts that are laying around and maybe uh they're gonna get published soon. Who who knows? But uh here we are to talk about one of those pieces with you today that is I am very intrigued by these holds, these 21, uh, the architecture of air, the 21 uh holds of spiritual ascent. Um, and I'm not sure if it folds into uh today, Ash Wednesday, or the Linton season at all as we step into that over the next few weeks. But if we find a way to talk about Lent, we will certainly add that uh to our discussions today. So welcome. It's it's great to have you here. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Thank you. I'm excited. I always have fun with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Lori, do you want to uh bust in here and just say, here's why I started this. This is why I'm writing this piece.

Visual Language For Invisible Journeys

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Well, I'll give you just a brief intro. The thing, I'm a visual person, and Jesus was a very visual person. And yet, as I consider the journey of the spiritual ascent, many of the holds, what I'm identifying as holds, are not really visible things. You know, we have the wilderness and we have hell, which, you know, is kind of not really described. We have the garden, we have the lake, we have the sea. But for those of us who don't live around gardens, lakes, or seas, what is the what are the visuals of it? And so I was at REI, which I bought every accessory known to humankind at REI, just so I can feel like an adventure, even if I don't go on them. And I was watching the mountain climbing rocks and all of the gear, and the word came up toehold. And I was just fascinated by the fact that a mountain climber can find something the size of half an inch to change their momentum on a flat cliff. And I thought, well, that's like the spiritual journey. I know what it's like to be up against a cliff and you're dangling there and you don't know if you're gonna fall into the abyss, and it's like you just need a toehold. And then I was typing the word for another essay, the word motherhood, and it autocorrect changed it to other hold. And I sat back and I thought, what is other hold? What does that even mean? And so that became the bunny rabbit, which I have shared with you. This is how I write my books. I see a bunny rabbit, I see a flash of a tail, I say, there it is, and then I start chasing it down the rabbit hole to find out what is revealed under the surface. So the 21 holds is it's really about my spiritual journey and what got me from one point to another. And as, of course, it's in retrospect that you can name these. When you're at the top of the mountain, you can look down and you say, Oh, that was that, that was that, that was that. I dodged that. Oh, almost fell there. But while you're climbing it, you cannot see it. So I thought, why not give people a map of the invisible so that they can call this a hold and then realize that it is a temporary place. It's not a lock, it's a hold that they can move out of. And as I began writing these, they literally were like bunny rabbits jumping into my lap. Name me, name me, name me, because I thought there were only eight, and now we're up to 21. But I realized that the lower half, if this were a ladder, and we're gonna talk about these holds are not linear, but for the purposes of a list, considering a ladder, like you're climbing something, that the lower 10 holds are the gravity holes. Those are the ones that are gonna most likely pull you down. Once you cross the threshold, then you begin to ascend into the spirit, uh the the ascent holds or the vertical holds. So that's kind of the overview of how it came about. And now we can go from there.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

In the beginning of the essay that um you offered for me to read um regarding this writing and this idea, um, you started with the breath, and that simply just rang true, even in that first sentence to me, like everything begins with the breath. And everything um can be reborn with that breath, with that new breath or that a realization of that. And and so in this, when you started discussing the other hold, I had a question regarding what are some practices or what are some ways that we can discern when we are being held by something that is not truly us versus when we're being shaped by community or belonging, or kind of like how do we discern the difference between attachment that shrinks us or keeps us down and belonging that will expand us? Both of them are painful, but how what are practices that we could discern in that?

Gravity Holds: Naming What Pulls Us Down

SPEAKER_01 6:32

I just love how you ask yes or no questions. No yes or no questions for you. No yes or no question. The first thing, Heather, is you have to name, you have to understand the vocabulary of the holds. Okay. You have to know what they are in order to know what you're in, right? So, and I can give the visuals like the social hold. We can go through these quickly. The social hold is a carousel. The horses, the painted ponies go up and down. You can be on a painted pony in motion, but you're still going in a circle and you're only going up and down, right? The social hold is different from the society itself. We need society, but the social hold is when you are stuck on a painted pony on a carousel, doing the same thing over and over, and you feel like you're in motion, but you realize the landscape around you is not changing. That's the social hold. The overhold is a magnifying glass of control. You're controlling things too tightly. The other hold is a dog on a chain. It's a chain that's keeping you on a very tight leash on a perimeter. You can be chained outside someone's house. You belong to that house, but you never get in it. You're on you're caught by the other hold. The cargo hold is having too much baggage. You can't get through the door with all your luggage. The stowhold is someone, it's eyes in the belly of a plane. You're living vicariously through someone else's journey. The mold hold is things that are wilted and decaying. They're in the basement. You haven't paid attention to them. You forgot they were there, you've walked away, it's gotten moldy. The wilted flower. The cold hold is a heart turning into an icicle where things are beginning to get frozen alive. The fold hold is from the card game where you look at the hands you've been, the cards you've been held been dealt, and you say, I don't have anything, I don't have a winning hand here. I fold and you pull yourself out of the game. Women tend to do this a lot, thinking that the cards they've been dealt are not winning hands, not realizing that most poker games are won on a bluff. You know, we give up too soon. Um, the withhold is when we go into shutting down our own energy, not speaking up, not giving our voice, not giving our opinion. It's literally a starvation mode where we think us withholding our energy is going to get noticed by other people, which usually it does not. It just starves us. The choke hold is the most visible one. It's literally when someone is either strangling you or some situation has caused you literally to think you cannot get your next breath. It is the most dangerous hold. The threshold is the glowing line where you see light, you just see a crack of light. And all you need is that crack of light. It is a sense of an opening, a sense that there is another way, another door. You don't have to live like this. There's something more than what you've been experiencing. You can't identify it, but it's just a light, a thin light, underneath the door, perhaps. Now you begin. The ascent holds, the toe hold is one of my favorites because anybody can do that. It can be, for me, it was$20 found in a gutter when I was living in a situation where women had no money, no access to a car. I found$20 and it was enough to get me cab fare to the airport where my father had a ticket waiting. So it can be tiny, it can be anything. And many people can relate to this, Shelley, as we've talked of this uh with other people, they can identify. Gosh, I just had one thing, a phone call from a neighbor or, you know, a sign. It could be a sign in the sky, it can be anything tiny. But all you have to do is get your little 1.77 inch toe into that hold, and you can begin to move upward. The throwhold is the most uh dramatic, perhaps. It is the trapeze artist, where there's trust, and at one point you have to let go and trust that the other person is coordinated to catch you. The throwhold is also that of a I call it it's divided into three parts. The joy throw is the dog seeing its owner coming back from the military. It's the six-inch chihuahua jumping 20 feet in the air to be in the arms of the person it missed for the last six months, right? So it's that's the joy throw. The the throw hold, the other one we talk about, the trust, the trapeze, and the most desperate one is the burning building where the house is on fire and they throw the baby off. That is the desperate uh throw, and usually by that time the house is on fire. So you want to make your throwhold before you reach that point. The sold hold is two twofold. You look behind you, you sold your house. Whatever you owned, it's sold. You can't go back there. Someone else has title to it now. And the sold hold also is you have signed the deed to a new adventure, to a new home, and you have sold yourself to that idea. I'm sold on this idea. I'm sold on the idea that there's something more besides what I've had to live with. The bold hold is picture someone running for a train and they're reaching up to grab that latch at the risk of even falling under the train. It is the most courageous, one of the most dangerous ascent holds you can go for because you're going for it. You are all in and at great risk to even your own life or livelihood. The gold hold is when you are reaching for eternal values, when you discern that what has been glittering for you is not gold. It is not seeking first the kingdom of heaven. You're seeking something else, and that's why you're stuck. And the gold hold is also that of the Fibonacci, the Fibonacci rule in nature, which is the spiral of a seashell is the same as the spiral of a galaxy, which is the same as the spiral of an embryo. It is a proportion of divine unfurling that is very pleasing to the universe. And part of the reason it is pleasing is not only beautiful in a work of art, but it also has a certain economy of scale, right? So I believe once we get into the ascent holds, once we reach for the gold hold, we will be in a in an economy of scale of the proportion of 60, 30, 10, which is 60% of my time is in the gold, seeking the eternal value. 30% is in the the horizontal holes of dealing with society and all of that. And the 10% is the spark that makes me uniquely me. So the stronghold is when you have ascended and you're finally at the top of the castle, arms have reached down to grab you. They tell you to stand up. You realize you can stand up on your own and you are surrounded by like-minded people or spirit in a castle, right? You're strong and you are held. And at this point is the wold hold, and wold is a Germanic word, and people in England and UK would recognize it. It's a clearing. It's where all the thicket and the trees and the brush has been cleared away, and you are looking at farmable land that is yours. This is clear. The um the behold is when you realize and you behold the glory of God in yourself and all around you. And suddenly you you recognize that you were held all along with deep and affirming affection, and that you can behold in being held. Um, and then the untold is the next phase, which is what's the story? You're not just going to be held now, it's what is the new story that is unfolding in you. So those are the um kind of the visuals that go with the holds. And the more people can understand and identify the chokehold, is easy. You know, Shelly's been using it in her podcast. It's like she went straight for that one, you know, because that's oh man, you're in a chokehold. The social hold is probably one of the hardest to escape because it's gravity. It's 76% probably of all these other holds relate to the social hold, which is this is how it's done, this is who you're supposed to be, this is how we need you to be. Don't get off the carousel because we need that dancing pony right where it is, right? So that's the the uh social hold. And as I've said in my other two um podcasts, broadcasts, live casts, whatever it is about the this is not about relationship counseling. This is about your path to your God, your own spiritual ascent.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Well, it it's obvious that this is more than just a um a 30-minute uh podcast uh content. This seems to be very deep and wide and and maybe even necessary uh for many of us who have been burdened or uh felt chained or um you know strapped to something that we're not sure how to get loose from. So it's beautiful, beautiful content and uh very rich. But wow, there's just so much here. I mean, just in the the quick definitions of this, it is a powerful, powerful visuals.

Threshold And First Light

SPEAKER_03 16:25

In your listing, those holds that can spark a curiosity in people as to, I wonder if that is something that is true for me or if that's something that I'm not even aware of. But when you describe the fold hold, I think particularly as a pastor and as a mother, I have seen and and and even myself witnessed a conditioning of women, and particularly I feel like from the church, who have told us that we're not in the game, you're not even at the table, just hold these cards. When in fact we have we are invited into our own lives and to live them fully. And and so I have uh, you know, a question of like what does it take for someone to recognize that they are folding? That they're how do you know that that's what you're doing? Uh is it not just church, is it not just like submission? Is it not just one of those things? How do you recognize, oh, what I'm doing is not even honoring the game?

Ascent Holds: From Toehold To Bold Hold

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Yes, yes. Well, it is it's res it's related to the withhold. You know, you start backing away from the table. You don't say what you're thinking, you don't push back, you don't stay in the game and you don't slap the table and say, hit me, you know, deal it. Let me see, give me another card. You know, counting your chips with boldness and realizing that we we are not only invited to the game, we are the game. Yes, we are the game. And so to fold it, and I loved Heather that you picked that one out because I've just seen it, you know, working at the Women's Resource Center with Battered Wives, and you know, the systems, many systems are set up to and the social hold is through patriarchy, it is through our conditioning, it is through the stories we've been told that you you know, you can shuffle the cards or you can you can hand out the drinks at the table, but you're not in the game. So get in the game. And if you don't like the hand that you're dealt, ask for other cards or bluff your way to stay in the game, right? I mean, act as if I can't tell you how many times I was terrified. And it's like, I'm just gonna have to pretend like I'm really know what I'm talking about here to stay in the game. And there's a respect that comes from that. There's a respect that comes from not folding, right? And even when you think about folding the laundry, you know, you're folding it up, making it smaller to put it away for another time. And are we doing that to our own lives? Folding our arms over our chest, crossing our legs like we were taught to do, so we can be folded over into a suitcase and carried around wherever they want us to go, right? So the fold hold is very deadly, um, and it's very easy, you know. Even the same, he folded like a deck of cards, you know, or um you and as a pastor, you've seen it, and and the spirit is the spine. The spirit is like, no, you know, stand up. Stand up. And it is hard in the social hold, and particularly with the chokehold, because the closer we come to the dangerous power of recognizing our own behold, the more the forces come against us.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

I think one of the um ideas that I personally had to struggle with, and I think it relates to this, is that it is okay and it is necessary for me to take up space. Yes. And I think that it relates back to breath. Like as a woman, we're conditioned to go, you know, just be talk gently, talk smaller, you know, be and then, and so it's essential for me to take up whatever space I need to take. Yes. Yes. For me to use the breath that God has given me. One of the things that I like to do and um is sing loudly. And you need a lot of breath to be able to sing loudly. Yes. And you need a lot of breath to be able to move that air within yourself. And I think very often when we don't take up space, we we don't have even the breath to be able to move to the next to hold. Yes. And so it's so essential to go back and go, how are we allowing the expansion of our own breath to give us, you know, that next burst of energy or whatever it is that we need to actually ascend? And I think ultimately come back to the idea that do people even realize that the intention is that we ascend spiritually? Was that is that even with on their we're supposed to ascend? Like this is the whole game that we're talking about. This is the invitation to ascend, to not stay the same, to be transformed. But I think the um if you could talk a little bit more about that, like how do we recognize that we do make ourselves small? We have agreed with something that says, as a woman in particular, just be quiet, get along, as opposed to going, absolutely not. Breathe in deep and sing loudly. Yes, we're gonna everyone's gonna hear this.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yes, and I think you've just said it. I mean, taking the next breath. Whenever in if you look at the social holds as a ladder, once you recognize where you are, let's say for me, I was in the chokehold, literally, my husband threat ex husband threatened to strangle me, right? And I you just had to take a breath. But I had found that$20. And I knew that to stay would mean I might not live, right? So I took a breath. And I made a phone call to a friend of a friend. And I said, Can you come get me? And she did. Right? So sometimes it's just enough breath to say, pick up the phone, call somebody. And that becomes your next step out.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend. And if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionisttheology.com.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Recognizing where you are, it's like naming the demons. Once you name the demon, you've got control over it. I mean, you can recognize it. So, and I say demon biblically, you know. We know what you mean. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Um, and I'm actually designing a card game around this, and that once you name the hold you're in, you reach for the next ascent card. You realize, like even in the chokehold, if someone comes up behind you, I mean, I think all women need self-defense training. Bar none. So if someone comes up behind you and grabs you, you still have your arms. You can go boom, boom, instep, groin, knee. You don't just most of us freeze. Women were taught to not taught or conditioned to freeze and maybe think someone's gonna come rescue us. Well, there's no one else on the mountain sometimes, except you in the wind, and that, and that rope. So it's this is very much about claiming your sovereignty and knowing this is your journey and you're the only one that's gonna fold or ascend.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Or stay in the game and you might be the winner. It might be their favor. Indeed. Stay in the game, and then, you know, and obviously the invitation, I think, in your giving us this image of this particular game and the folding of the game reminds me so much of the table, the table of the Lord, the table of communion, but how very often we don't take our place at the table or we don't stay at the table. We're there and then somebody told us we have to leave. And I think that being able to take the next breath and go, no, I'm in, I'm in. And this may not be, I don't know what's gonna happen next. But I think the courage to stay at the table matters how the world is gonna actually change.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 24:28

I think that we're looking around and go, how are things gonna change? We can tell how things how we got here, but how do we move from here? How do we ascend into creating a new world, a new community, you know, for all the ways that we want things to be better? What are we willing to do about it? I think the first thing is stay at the table. Don't leave.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Very, very good. So you're you're looking like you have something you want to say.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

No, it's just uh um, I'm just sitting over here in uh in in awe of you two, uh perfect humans.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Um and because what if every woman would just stay at the table? Like just don't leave all of us together, just stay at the table.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Let somebody else, let somebody else get the coffee. Let somebody else pirate paper, you know.

Gold Hold, Proportion, And Stronghold

SPEAKER_02 25:14

I was thinking about, you know, we're heading into, I'm gonna I'm gonna pull a lint, a lint card. I don't know if that's in the game or not, Lori, but I'm gonna pull a lint card. And we're heading into this season where, you know, most of the time uh it is a way to um to pray or to set aside something that um, you know, maybe heavy, or we're, you know, we don't want to carry this anymore, or we want to take on, I want to be more grateful, I want to have more love in the world. Um but what if what if we entered uh this season with these horizontal holds as practices um that we could release into um either through prayer or meditation or journaling or some way to get us thinking about am I here? Am I in this other hold? Am I in this overhold? Am I in the stowhold? Like, how can we, and I think um, you know, Heather, in the pre-show we were talking a little bit about threshold. Like we might not even see the threshold. You might want to say more about that in a minute, but um it's like we're unpracticed, we're unpracticed at what you're describing here. And I think that's one of the things that I'm enchanted by in these 21 holds, is that I haven't quite heard uh from a theological perspective these words. But behind them, I feel like there is a deep understanding of freedom and liberation.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yes, yes. That is the beehold, that is the freedom of the old hold, the thicket is gone, the brush is cleared, and you see this beautiful rolling green landscape that's yours to shape.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

And Heather asked this uh a few minutes ago too. Like, how do we how do we see them? Does someone else have to see it in us and bring it to our attention? Or uh do we just have blinders on all the time, or as women, we're we're asked to leave the table or whatever the case may be. Um I'm I'm really curious as the as the how-to. And I think playing the game um a little bit with you on Sunday as we practiced uh with some friends was helpful. The the cards were helpful and the conversation around it is helpful. And so maybe um maybe it looks like a practice. Maybe the 21 holds of spiritual ascent are become a practice uh as we're thinking, because we're practicing people. We we want to practice something so we can get clear about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Shelly, share what card you pulled, what you chose, uh if it's not too personal, as the gravity hold you were in, and then the one that the way the game is that everybody gets the the nine or the ten holds, the gravity holds, and then the woman or whoever chooses the one that most speaks to her, and then she has two soulmates around her, and they present the threshold, and she has to name what is the light that you see, what is exciting you, what are you moving towards, and then the vertical holds are upside down, and then they're just she draws one prophetically, which is her next step, right? So, Shelley, can you share just it was a cargo hold?

SPEAKER_02 28:48

I I wrote about this in on Substack yesterday. So the cargo hold and the throw hold were the two cards that I I drew randomly out of the deck, and and I was questioning the process along, trying to like I didn't trust um that as other people took cards that I was gonna get a card that actually was relatable. So that was also an interesting, an interesting move. But yeah, for me it was cargo, uh, the cargo hold and throw hold were the two were the two cards I drew.

Wold, Behold, Untold: A New Story

SPEAKER_01 29:20

So the visual there, and I think a lot of people could relate to it, too much baggage, too much scheduling, too much. It's also judging other people, right? The eye of the needle, the the gate is narrow with judgment of other people. So the cargo hold, getting rid of whatever that baggage is, you cannot take it climbing a mountain. But the throwhold was interesting because that's dramatic. You've got to throw this, throw something away, right? Or throw throwing yourself upward means you're gonna drop a lot of baggage if you're hurling yourself forward, right? You can't say, I need my Louis Vuitton, you know, I need my double bag, I need my pickleball. Yes, I need, you know, my pastor's shirt, all blouse, all these things. You know, you just cannot. So this is why it's it's not something, Heather, to your point, that someone can just read and immediately know how to do it. The first thing is understanding what the chokehold is, what is a cargo hold. Then you can relate to it. And then the throwhold, the more you practice it, the more you're gonna be able to understand it. And as we have learned with other people who are doing this, they start using the terms, it becomes like balls of light, you know. Oh man, you're I did something two days ago. I did, I combined a throwhold, a gold hold, and a bold hold. I just did the boldest thing I could think of. Boom, something magical happened. Where even I, I say even I, as the author of all this, I was stuck in the um social hold. What will people think of me if I do this? It's just like, well, the threshold is saying it's over here. All right, that's where I'll go.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah, I think the um, I think the exercise is like it's one thing to hear you hear you talk about these pieces here in the podcast and in other casts that you're doing. But I I think the real the real essence of uh the transformation, like you said, Heather, do we even understand that that the spiritual life is an ascent? Like We're supposed to be. Yeah. Are we are we supposed to be like releasing these things? And one thing I will say is when I drew the cargo, the cargo hold, I I immediately like felt this heaviness that I'd been carrying about my schedule, right? Like my schedule was so full. And even though I had clearly delineated that I wanted to do deep work in a particular time of the day or the week, it's like that the cargo hold had so much in it that I wasn't being allowed to release uh my thoughts or writing or activities that I wanted to do. There was just too much cargo. Um, so it was helpful. I I think having this is just a plug for the cards, Lori.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Which we're not available yet. We're still working on this.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah, this I think could be a could be a lot of fun to have. Um and maybe it could become practices. I don't know, but but I would like to hear, Heather, your thoughts on um on the threshold piece. You and I have talked about thresholds uh a lot. I don't know if we've done a podcast on thresholds yet, but um your your comment earlier about it um that we don't see them, we don't recognize them.

Folding, Withholding, And Women Staying At The Table

SPEAKER_03 32:37

I think that uh in our own lives as women, there are threshold moments. We've just maybe not been given the tools to be able to name them for what they are. And one of the things that I appreciate very much about even your past work, Lori Beth, has been you have named some tools that have become um gifts to put in other people's hands to be able to say, you have to work yourself. You have to do the, you have to play the game the at the table that you're sitting at. You have to use the tools that you have in your particular garden. Hear the work, but but if you recognize that's not an obstacle, it's a tool.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

That can become very helpful in reframing the world that we're currently living in. And for me, the opportunities that thresholds present are I can stay here, go back, or I can go forward. Here's an opportunity right now. This is a threshold. And one of the things that I heard you mention earlier was that a threshold and an illumination or light is essential. And I think that ultimately, how beautiful it is that we're meeting here on this beginning of the season of Lent, which is the end of the season of Epiphany. And Epiphany is do you have the light that you need? And and will the spirit come and show you another way to go home?

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Oh, beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

And this invitation into ascent, this invitation into again, the teachings of Jesus are come and follow me. And to follow means there's motion. Yes, it means it's gonna be continuing motion, not sit here and think about this, like follow me in the good work that I'm doing. Yes, follow me in something else. And so follow me in the ascent, Jesus shows us that he himself ascends and the invitation that we as people would ascend. And so the threshold, I think, not only needs to be something that we become aware of and actually ask questions, I think just get curious about them. Where are the thresholds in my life? What are the thresholds that are coming in my life? And what how will I participate in them when the spirit allows me to see them? Yes. And so, are there any th practices that you have in uh naming or discerning a threshold?

SPEAKER_01 34:48

One of them is part of the game is a little, it's at in the bonus round of the game, right? And it's a little glass rabbit. And I named it the wonderful what-if rabbit. And Shelly just had a hard time with it. She said, This is so corny. But I have written my books, you know, following the rabbit, right? So in the bonus round of this game, everybody can have maybe, you know, they're having drinks or whatever, laughing and they've seen the cards. And well, anybody can hop the little wonderful what-if rabbit in front of another person and say, Gelly, here's a wonderful what if. What if you really could go on a writer's retreat and make sure everybody in your world was taken care of? Wonderful what if. And so a threshold, if you play it at that level, right? So making it I'm part of my gifting and responsibility is to make things accessible, I think, to people. And so the wonderful what if rabbit became the most favorite part of the game because it allows the imagination to go forward, because it's a wonderful what if. And if the rabbit hops, you know, it jumps and and moves around. And and I was in a situation, I'm counseling a high-level executives who's stuck in a legal battle, and I went through, spent three hours researching, came up with three solid strategies. And then the little rabbit hopped and said, What if he just went and used a charm offensive and sat down with the board and said, Can you just, can we just redo this? And I shared it with him. He said, That's what I'm gonna do. And it was the last, it was 10 minutes before the call. The little rabbit hopped. That was the threshold that he needed rather than in the thickets in the brush, and oh, chop here, and then you go left here, and then now you gotta, you know, and so invite people to say, and it is Easter's coming up in terms of all of that, um, soon enough, maybe not soon enough, but what's a wonderful what-if threshold? Wouldn't it be wonderful if XYZ happened? Wouldn't it be wonderful if someone brought me water and I could turn it into wine? Wouldn't it be wonderful if someone could stand up and pick up their palate and walk? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we knocked a hole in the roof and put somebody down in it and Jesus healed him? Wouldn't it be wonderful if I could just get a toehold and touch the hem of his garment and be healed? That woman was practicing a throwhold that just touched the hem of his garment. It's kind of a simple, silly, it might sound silly practice, but I think kids can get it. I think adults can get it, and so I think we become heavier and heavier with our spirituality sometimes and thinking about oh, the weight of shoulds and shouldn'ts and this and that. And it's like here comes a rabbit. Wonderful, what if? And so I even came up with a Latin term for it because I wanted to define the feeling of this rabbit in Latin, and it is this, these are Latin words, eos exulta crea mirim quid si, which means the dawn leaps for joy. Create the wonderful what if.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

I love it. Create the wonderful what if.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

The dawn leaps for joy.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Oh, that's so beautiful. Um, I took some liberties um with the essay that you um shared with me about the uh ascent, and I wrote a blessing over it. Okay, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

I love your blessings.

Breath, Voice, And Taking Up Space

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Well, I wrote, well, don't say that before you've heard it, but I do feel like it came from um my own place and in reading over that and going, what would I want after hearing that? Like after understanding and maybe not understanding all of it, or just having the curiosity to go, okay, there's something more here that I need, but almost then feeling like maybe I don't have the energy to climb, or maybe I don't have I maybe I don't think I could get very far, or and then that just immediately that feeling of, well, that's for somebody else good, but not maybe for me. So I wrote a blessing if somebody feels that way. Um, or again, just in the a blessing for those who climb. Beloved ones, may the inner ear within you be blessed. That secret shell of listening curved toward the heavens, that heard not noise, but the voice of hope hidden inside the holes. May you be blessed for recognizing your own name that echoes in the architecture of air. For something in you knew, something ancient stirred, something Christ-shaped whispered, there is more altitude for you. I bless the courage in your toes, those small trembling places searching for a crack in the cliff. I bless the holy defiance in your ribs that refuses the chokehold of fear. I bless your hands that once folded but are now opened again, palms lifted, not in surrender to oppression, but in surrender to love. May your breath deepen. May you remember that you are being animated by the breath of God, not by social approval, not by inherited silence, not by the gravity of system that never named your glory. I bless your climb. I bless the shedding of cargo. I bless the loosening of the other holes, and I bless the sacred trembling at the threshold. And as you exhale, may the world around you and within you expand, and as you heal, may the architects of your family shift. And as you rise, may the daughters you may never meet find firmer footing because you dared to stay at the table. I bless your Christ consciousness, that radiant awareness that you are not separate from love but sourced in it. I bless the way of Christ who slipped past every hold that empire, religion, or fear placed upon him, who would not be withheld, who would not fold, who passed through the chokehold of death and returned, breathing peace to all. May that same power continually live in you. And may you find the narrow cracks that will become doorways. May you discover mercy at every altitude. May you stand one day in the behold, receiving all that you were meant to be, not striving, not shrinking, but shining. And may the eternal parent who breathes galaxies into being steady your lungs for the climb ahead. Beloved, go in courage, go in expansion, and go knowing that the air at higher altitudes may be thin, but it is holy. I bless your climb.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Heather, that is so beautiful. Yes, yes. When this becomes a book, for a beautiful essay. You got it. I mean, you just really wrapped yourself around that in the golden ratio. I mean, that was just incredible. And when this becomes a book, may I include it with your name? Maybe at the beginning, ending, and in the middle. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Well, you include it with no name, but yet a blessing for all of that. Again, because sometimes when it's described, it feels like, oh, yeah. But we just bless it. Bless it all. Bless the struggle. Yes. Bless the falling backwards.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Bless it. Yeah. But get out of the hole that we're in. I think the whole world is.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Bless, bless, bless.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

This is this has been a wonderful what if day so far. Yes. With you two. So thank you, Lori Beth.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

How did you say that one more time though? Wouldn't it be wonderful if Yeah, the saying that you were using.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

The saying is the dawn leaps for joy. Create the wonderful what if. Creating the wonderful what if. Okay, beautiful. And so the little rabbit asks a question wouldn't it be wonderful if? And then people's imagination looking at a lab a rabbit that hops around and it's not serious and not heavy. And you know, it's like, oh, well, it's just playing a game. So then their minds go get free. Instead of, oh, I have to do the ninth commandment. It's just like, wouldn't it be wonderful if you just woke up happy one day and realized you don't have to live like this? Or you see a photo of somebody you used to be and saying, I want that little girl back. And you can have her. You can have her. You can find her.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

May it be so.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

May it be so.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

So be it. Um, thank you both. It's been it's been a pleasure.

Practical Moves: One Call, One Step

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Always you two are brilliant. What you're doing is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. I'm in awe.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

We're trying to ascend. That's the intent. We're trying to change our thoughts. Yes. Yes. And invite other people to do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yes. And you're doing it well and beautifully and artfully. It's a work of art as well as an architecture of profound expansion.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheology.com.