Mary Magdalene And An Unruly Table

Mary Magdalene doesn’t feel like a footnote when you finally let her stand where the text and the tradition say she belongs. We’re counting down to her feast day by talking about what it means to celebrate her in public and in practice, especially for those of us who grew up with only a small handful of church holidays and a much smaller view of women’s spiritual authority.

We explore Mary as an invitation to embodied faith, the kind of knowing that comes from within and stays with you through grief, joy, and change. That leads us straight to communion and the Eucharist: bread and cup as a living mystery of belonging, abundance, and belovedness. We share why we can’t stop thinking about the image of a long, unruly banqueting table where nobody earns their seat and nobody gets left out.

We also dig into why scholarship matters for real life. Newer research associated with Elizabeth Schrader raises serious questions about scribal edits in John and a Christological confession that may have originally been attributed to Mary Magdalene, not Martha. For us, that isn’t trivia, it’s a restoration of memory that reshapes how we see the early church, the “apostle to the apostles,” and the pattern of witness we’re invited to follow: stay, see, and then go tell.

If this conversation stretches your imagination, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the podcast.

Transcript

Why Mary Magdalene Gets The Summer

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Expansionist Podcast with Shelly Shepherd and Heather Drake. In each episode, we dive deep into conversations that challenge conventional thinking, amplify diverse voices, and foster a community grounded in wisdom, spirit, and love. Good afternoon, Heather Drake. It's great to see you. Good afternoon, Shelly Shepherd. I'm grateful to be in this space with you and talking about Mary Magdalene.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Yeah, I cannot wait. I have been looking forward to these few weeks leading up to her feast day and feast week. So yeah, this is going to be a great conversation with you.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I'm looking forward to this time together because it's something that we are creating and something that we're joining with the church worldwide, but really very new to me in the practice of my Christian faith. There was like Christmas, Easter, and I really think those were like the holidays that we kind of celebrated in our early Christian world. And then once we came more into the ecumenical traditions, and then there were more feasts and more, you know, days and the calendar that were to be honored and represented, and it really helped open our understanding about some things. And I am delighted that the feast season, the feast time of Mary Magdalene. I know that there are some that start in May, and we're talking about this being July and an upcoming feast. And so I think that Mary gets the summer. I think that that's the intention that I see here. We're going to give her the summer months.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Well, I I think in our lives she gets every month. How about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yes. Okay, I'll give you that. But we're gonna for celebrating. Yeah. Yes. For celebrating, I think. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah. Anytime between May and July.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah. And did we get did we get a little bit robbed growing up non-Catholic? Potentially.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Potentially. But we'll just take it back now. Like as adults, we're grown women, and we'll just be like, oh, were we gonna celebrate a feast day? Were we gonna get together with friends and think about people who have ascended and who have changed their lives and the lives of others and say, how do we pattern ourselves after that? How do we follow that light in our own way? And how do we embody the truth that Mary offers to us?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I think in our tradition, we grew up um celebrating people they knew that had gone on, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

People that and the masculine, and the masculine, definitely the masculine. You know, so I think that the feminine in tradition was definitely um quieted or missed out on. So I'm grateful that we can now as adults say, Oh, yeah, Mary, we're gonna celebrate her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yes, yes. Yeah, so many there's so many names that I I heard growing up, you know, like like Uncle Willie or Uncle Bruce or, you know, Aunt Aunt Martha or you know, these folks that that blazed a trail. Like I thought these were like the saints, right? People I didn't understand what the Catholics at that time were were celebrating so often. Um but but what a gift to um to join that now, to join the cloud of witnesses that maybe people haven't even named yet.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

And maybe even that are present and alive among us. May the spirit let us see and honor those people

Reclaiming Feast Days And Feminine Witness

SPEAKER_01 3:40

even now. Let's not wait until they have passed to the other side or beyond the veil, but honoring the work of the spirit, obviously honoring the spirit among us, but how the spirit demonstrated um and expressed itself through Mary Magdalene.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Hopefully. Where is Mary inviting us uh on this journey in the month of July? Where will we travel with her?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Something that you had mentioned earlier that I think is worthy of discussion is I think an invitation that Mary offers, not just to you and I, but to people, is an embodied experience. Not just a head knowledge, not someone just to have been studied and then you get your degree and did you know this is what Mary said. But this Gnostic tradition that is really wide, not very bordered, and this knowing that comes from within, that is the merry way. And I and I think that that's such a beautiful invitation for all of us to recognize that this will be an embodied learning. This will be something that you feel in your bones, your head might not have all the details or the dates or all the things that our head likes to check off all that kind of information. But this knowing that moves you, this knowing that sits with you in grief, this knowing that is with you.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I I think one of the one of the areas and practices of of my faith over the last, I would say over this last year, um, I mean, I've been practicing this for a good long time, as you have as well, which is communion. Recently I was in a conversation with someone and they they said, you know, what if what if the communion was a feminine representation of of this divine act of the holy and the sacred feminine, and you know, just that whole understanding of the bread and the cup becoming more to my feminine spirit than what I'd ever really thought about before. And I think I've had some of those thoughts and uh opportunities throughout the years, but over this last year I have been practicing that more in a space where only priests can offer communion. And I have found that invoking uh the presence of Mary Magdalene during communion has offered me a doorway, an expansion, a way to experience something deeper of what Jesus was offering, not just at the last supper, but I think at the first supper, and the second supper, and the third supper, um, with people. And I believe that there is something that Mary Magdalene is inviting me personally into in this expansion and this experience in the form of communion.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

It's a beautiful thought. Um, somebody had said recently to me, uh, I was having a conversation with a few people, and they asked, and I said, We have an open communion table. And the person responded with, What does that mean? And someone responded for me, and it says that she presides over a really unruly banqueting table. And I loved that so much. I loved it so much. Because, first of all, yes, I as a woman leading communion and saying unruly. Yeah, but doesn't that sound like a whole lot of fun? You know, like at that table, don't you want to be at the long, unruly banqueting table? Because that's really what communion is: this feasting, this place of nourishment, this place of rejoicing, this place of honoring presence between us. But I love this idea of it's gonna be unruly. And I think that that's really what Mary offers us. Wow. This is an unruly table, you know, the one where everyone

Embodied Knowing Beyond Head Knowledge

SPEAKER_01 7:55

sits prim and proper and some people are left out. That's not the table that we are presiding over. And so um, if someone wanted to get a glimpse in their mind of what this was, I think a long, unruly banqueting table is really the invitation that Mary gives us into our own lives, to enjoy the things that are right before us, to savor the moments that we've already been given. And and I love very much uh, you know, the words that Mary gives us, what she offers us, what she asks us to return to, return to the good within us. And so to come back to ourselves, to come back to the truth that we really know that we are made in the image of the divine, and it is good. We are very good. And so that again is like the prerequisite for understanding this feasting that we're doing, the banquet table. There is something holy about communion. There is something so incredible about entering into that mystery and what it does to reorient our souls to belonging, to belovedness, to provision, to abundance, all of those things. Every time we come to the table, we're reminded that there's enough and there's enough for us to share. And I think that's something that Mary reminds us of all the time. You talk about is there a feminine leading for the communion table? I don't think you can get away with anything other than that when you hear this is my body broken for you. A woman's body broken for birth, a woman's body broken for sustaining birth. And so I hear those words, but then I also hear Mary going, you know, farther up and and and and let's allow our minds to go even past this and into higher realms.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Well, I I think that's the invitation um of Mary Magdalene as we are learning and understanding it, not to speak for you uh in any way, but the invitation is through an expansive thought, through an expansive door, not one that was just limited to twelve at the table. Like, you know, I can imagine Mary scurrying around and inviting many people that she ran into to come to the table and to break bread and to share cup. And also this I feel like her feast is an invitation not just to the unruly, although she was full of risk and and probably had had much to had much to say to people that did not get um placed in in our hands, but this invitation of expanding our thoughts and expanding our mind beyond um what we've even always thought of communion as being. Like this feast day is this feast a literal feast? Or are we actually feasting on the recognition of what this person held over time in the life of uh of the early followers of Christ until this very moment? Are we feasting on the knowing that there was something handed to her by Christ that she took, she broke it, she poured it, she ate it, and then she dispersed it through whatever powers that were known to her that she could do. And I think that is one of the points of feasting is I'm not just gonna sit at this table one time and be good. I'm gonna come back again and again and again and offer something that I just experienced with Christ, with the brothers, with the sisters at the well, right, on the road to Emmaus. I'm gonna keep coming back and back and back to commune often and regularly. And I think that's what excites me about feasting with Mary Magdalene.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Feasting with Mary Magdalene reminds me of her spiritual authority, something that I didn't hear about or read about much as a young person or as a child in the church, but really recognizing her uh capacity even to acknowledge, to be there, to be present for the resurrection, to see resurrection in places that no one else knew to look for it yet. But also to be able to go back into the stories in the accounts of John and hear her say, I believe you to be the Christ, you know, to hear her alongside her brother, uh, you know, Lazarus, to be able to hear her words saying, This is who I am. And those kind of those things for us to feast and go, what is it like to remember her

Communion As An Unruly Banquet

SPEAKER_01 12:50

full authority that I know you to be the Christ? This is what I know.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Can we talk about that for just a minute? Sure. That whole Christological confession about what Elizabeth uh Schrader has um opened up. Uh when you were talking about that just now, I'm like, oh Heather, we we probably should just have like a whole podcast around this finding, right? That she has this research now that's going to be published. And we can put a link in the show notes to her direct conversation with Diane Butler Bass, but that recognition that you just named, can you go back and say that again? I think it's it's we don't want to miss this and just like skip over it, even in this podcast, what you just said. I recognize you. Go ahead and say it again.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Part of the feasting is recognizing her spiritual authority and the authority that she took and said, I believe you, I know you, I see you to be the Christ. You know, you are the one sent from God. And to be able to honor that, to be able to sit with that, to be able to see the invitation that she gives us into our own knowing to see the Christ, to see the Christ in us, to see the Christ in other people, and to allow ourselves to embody that experience, to see that light, to live in that light. But to hear it now given back or put back in the in the in the hands of the one or in the mouth of the one who actually said it, I think there is such a beautiful time for us to remember, okay, we're giving credit where credit is due. And we're paying attention to something that we knew. But we we we knew this from the beginning of the story. We knew that that there was more to her, that there was more to this. And so when we hear these findings that someone's coming to now, we're like, yeah, but we really already knew that. Deep within us, we knew within that, yeah, yeah. And so it's really a wonderful place to be able to be at her feast and go, thank you for, you know, even allowing yourself to be hidden, to be buried, so that at this particular time it could be dug up and resurrected. We want to pause and take a moment and let you know how glad we are that you've joined us. If you're enjoying this podcast, consider sharing it with a friend. And if you found the conversation intriguing and want to know more about what we're learning or how you can join our online community, visit our website at expansionisttheology.com.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

And perhaps for those who who do not know that particular story or are not following the researchers uh out there that are that are excavating and digging through um these original documents and codex files. Martha was originally given the the status of the Christological Conf uh Confession. And now, a few thousand years later, they are saying that it was actually Mary that gave that, which to you and I makes perfect sense, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Well, can I can we also say something? It's not given back to her. It was originally written in such a way that that was attributed to her. Originally around the year 180 to 200, somebody changed it and inserted a character called Martha and gave it to this character who then disappears, never is there again. And we see Mary not only making this confession, but then we see her at the cross, at the tomb, at in the upper room, you know, at all these things. And so we see her being this faithful witness. So of course it makes more sense, but it also gives her a lot more credibility and power as a leader in the church to be able to acknowledge this point with her. But even if you didn't have this information, even if it was, again, the scribe who buried her in 200, even if that was still there, we we know from her, from the accounts of who she is and how she walks so closely with Jesus and how Jesus assigns to her the job of going and telling.

unknown 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And it is in that authority that you and I have conversations. It is in that authority that you and I believe.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

That's what the Catholic Church began to see and begin to honor, right? Like they decided that she is the apostle to the apostles. Like, let's make that clear, right? And it took it took quite a few years for that to be to be figured out. Um and so to your point, yes, we are getting back to placing Mary in her in her rightful her rightful place. And I I don't recall, but um I think how Elizabeth may have shared this in the in the interview was that the Martha in Luke is still a real person. It's just the one in John 11, 1 through 5 that um was was changed from Mary um to Martha. And why is that important and why is that significant um in in theological discourse and understanding? Well, it changes the story, it changes the authority that Mary was uh was was given and then uh was redacted uh from her. And and so why is that important? Well, I think it's important because this very reason, even here

Mary’s Authority And A Restored Confession

SPEAKER_00 18:20

today, that we have the freedom as women to come to a podcast, uh to go online, to to watch Diana and Elizabeth converse about a historical marker in our history, in our time, um, that makes this feast with her, with Mary Magdalene, I think maybe even more significant this year than maybe in the past ones.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

There's an invitation to recognize our own sovereignty and our own authority, even when, you know, some right now your Bible doesn't say that, but in regards to this current. I was just gonna say in regards to the fact that the Nestle Allen is gonna change and it's gonna be in the footnotes saying, hey, wanted you to know this was somebody else's idea, not in the text. And this understanding then asks or begs us to question what else has been changed, what else is added? And so we go back to what does the text tell us? What does it remind us of? What does it bring us to? It is a witness to who Jesus was. And what is Mary? A faithful witness to who Jesus was and what we are being invited into, and how we are being invited into building the kingdom of God alongside her, alongside of Jesus, to say what is it like for us to welcome that kingdom, even right now, for us to say, I'm gonna follow the way of Mary, to be a faithful witness, to be able to say, I will, I will watch this, I will be a part of this, I will, I will be with you in grief, I will be with you in joy, I will be with you.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yes, that's a beautiful invitation that I do believe that she is offering us um on a regular basis, not just during feast week, but you know, this upcoming opportunity that we have uh to walk with her in this significant way is to me, why is this important? Why does what difference does this make uh to us, not just as women, but uh to a to a collective? Like how does this how does this change how we interact or share communion or invite people to a table or um recommend something to read? How does this shift and how does this change? Uh who are we becoming as a result of following Mary Magdalene? I think that's where my curiosity and and part of my desire is to is to have her breathe into areas of my life that maybe are stale, maybe maybe going further in and further up, there is an opportunity for more joy, for more belief in that that this work of Jesus was actually paralleled with a woman named Mary Magdalene. Like I don't know, but I get excited about that. That she actually wants to offer a transformation or a path to transcendence, or to see wisdom or love or spirit in a way that maybe I have not always seen it. I think that's the invitation of Mary Magdalene, and also the invitation of of the feast is just to eat on that for a while.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

And recognize the invitation into belonging. We all belong at the unruly banqueting table of love. You don't have to earn your seat. There's already one provided for you. And someone has already made a sacrifice so that you can be included. And then we make sacrifices so that others can be included. And here's how the table gets to be longer. And I think that's the invitation that we have from Mary to see the Christ. What does it look like in our own lives to see the working of Jesus, changing the way that we think, expanding our understanding of love? And then how does how does that influence our neighbors? How does it influence the way that we vote? How does it influence the way that we care about our community? What is it, what does it matter? So what does it matter if this was given to Martha or to given to Mary? Say, who is it? But it does matter in the fact that when you recognize that someone has authority and someone says, This is what I know. And then in that knowing, they stay at the cross. In that knowing, they stay in the garden. In that knowing, they stay. And in that knowing, then they're there to witness the resurrection and hear that commission. And then they go and tell. And then in that going and telling, then she waits for the Holy Spirit to be poured out and full of the Holy Spirit. That's an invitation for a pattern. And the pattern that I'm invited to live. And to me, that's that's what matters. And that's what's so incredibly beautiful is our own sovereignty, our own knowing, but recognizing that since the very beginning of the story that women were included, that the story that Jesus came back

Following Mary’s Pattern Of Witness

SPEAKER_01 23:40

and told also included women, and that women were given full authority and equality and equity in the story of Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Amen to that. And he he wanted her to be remembered, he wanted her to be known. He wanted when you said um how he influenced, right? His influence. And this is a part of the text. Maybe someone else will find some hidden gospel in a cave somewhere. Maybe we'll find it in France when we're there. Some hidden book. But I believe that her influence on him had equal measure in how he talked with others, how he treated others, how he how he walked with people, how he sat at table, and her the fact that she would be remembered has to be in my holy imagination more than the cross and the tomb.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Well, Jesus said every time you're gonna tell my story, you're gonna tell hers. And what is the story we have of her? And how faithfully have we told the story of Mary Magdalene? And so these are things that I feel like we're making up. Not that faithful, not that faithful. No, no, Lord have mercy on us, and and may we be given more time to talk about it and to tell her story alongside of his story.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Because if you think of Eugene Peterson's entire translation of First and Second Testament called the Message, that was some holy imagination movement, you know, within him to offer a context of telling the gospel story in a nuanced way that I can I think kind of rocked the world for a lot of people at that time. But now we pick up the message and we read it, and it's like, oh, this this is a great way to tell this story. Look at this was added, or this flavor, or this color, or this fabric, or this notion. And I believe that that is what the Feast of Mary Magdalene offers is pick up the fabric, pick up the oil, pick up the flavor, pour it all in, and begin to imagine that this woman actually walked with Jesus, shared with Jesus, said things with Jesus, and Jesus took them and said something powerful came out of him.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Probably he said something like it's good, it's very good. The same thing that God said at creation. It is very good. It is very good.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

And I know you and I are very excited about this, uh, about this topic and about this month and this feast and this day. And yeah, it it's just an important, um, it's an important piece of my life for sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Well, I'm excited to have spent this time in podcast with you and just again preparing our hearts for the feast that we are going to celebrate together, but maybe igniting someone else's holy imagination and to be able to say, what don't I know about Mary? And how will I invite her to tell me what it looks like to be a faithful witness? How will I invite her to inspire me to use whatever is in my hands for an act of blessing, to be able to use my skill set, hers in anointing and in healing and in all these other initiations? And she offers them to Jesus. What does it look like for us as women to say, this is what I know, this is what I remember, and how do we offer this to the kingdom around us? It was our joy to have you listen to our conversation today. If you would like further information or for more content, visit us at expansionisttheology.com.