83. Meeting God in the Middle of the Mess with Devan Holman

Some days feel like you’re barely holding the house, the calendar, and your own heart together, and you wonder if you’re failing at life. Today’s conversation will meet you right there. Nikki sits down with Deon Holman, wife, mom of three, and writer of an upcoming 30-day devotional project Messy Days, Mighty God, to talk about finding Jesus in the middle of full schedules, ordinary motherhood, and real-life discouragement.

Deon shares the “building project” framework behind her devotional, including three daily pillars that helped her clear the fog during a hard season: time with Jesus, training your body, and intentional nutrition, with Jesus as the true foundation. They also talk about “demo day” (what to tear down, surrender, and release), how to build rhythms that support genuine faith without legalism, and why secondhand inspiration can never replace meeting with God personally. If you’ve been craving joy, spiritual steadiness, and a faith that fits into messy life instead of waiting for the perfect quiet moment… this episode is for you.

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Faith, Wellness, & a Whole Lot of Real Life
A mix of devotionals, honest reflections, Arbonne favorites, and a little encouragement for 

Seeds Family Worship Music:
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Scripture Lullabies:
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Abby Houston - Melodically Memorizing:
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Transcript

Welcome & Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey friends, I'm Nikki Smith, your host here at A Heart That Beats for Home, the podcast where we're ditching filters and diving headfirst into the raw beauty of all things home. Now, I am no expert when it comes to this whole parenting and marriage dance. I'm simply a gal who's been riding the mom roller coaster for 22 years and a wife still untangling the mystery of it all 25 years after saying I do. My goal is to bring you unapologetically messy and boldly genuine conversations about cultivating strong families. We're gonna laugh, possibly cry, and straight talk about the joy and chaos that comes within the four walls that we call home. No judgment and certainly no perfection. Just real talk from my heart, a heart that beats for home. Let's dive in. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another week on the podcast. As always, we're so grateful to have you with us every Thursday. Or if you're listening to this as a recording later, we're so glad to have you here. And we believe that the day that you're listening to this message is the day that your heart needs to hear it. I am super excited to have a guest with us today. Devin Holman is with us. She is a wife of 18 years to Scott. She's a mama to three busy kiddos, 16, 13, and 10, which she says puts her in the category of a full-time sports schedule manager and a proud sideline attendee. So many of us can relate to that. She's also a network marketing professional building a business. She's a writer and speaker focusing on God in the middle of full calendars and real life. She's currently working on a 30-day devotional project called Messy Days, Mighty God. That will be coming out in the next six to nine months. And we're going to take a deep dive today into some conversations about just that messy life and a good mighty God. Some of her special skills include expert carpool coordinator, kitchen dance party starter, and car concert enthusiast. So as you can tell just from those things, she is not just a real authentic mom. She is a fun mom. Some of those things are the are the characteristics that create the most memories in the middle of our messy. And she has recently become, as she calls herself, a mild to moderate pickleball enthusiast. And so we'll have to hear a little bit about that. You know, that's the trending sport there, Devin. But we are so excited to have you here today just to talk authentically with moms about what it looks like to find God in these messy, ordinary days of parenting. So give us just a little insight, maybe into how you came to this project. I've printed out the preface of the book where it says, I am going to actually just read it for the listeners real quick. It says, Have you ever felt like you are failing at life because same so many times? And then later down the page, you say, feelings as the CEO of my life, terrible hire. And I just feel like so many of us can relate to that on the day today and would love just for you to tell listeners what kind of brought you to the place that you stepped into obedience to write this devotional called Messy Days, Mighty God.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Thank you so much, Nikki. And oh gosh, even just listening to that, I'm like, I'm so grateful for all of those things. Because it is such a fun life, but it is busy and it is definitely messy. And so, really, I mean, I just think it has been God ordained. I put in the devotional. This was not on my life bingo card to do this. But the truth is, like, I just look around and there's so many people, moms, especially. We just carry so much and it can feel so distracting, it can feel kind of depressing, it can feel divisive, it can just feel so heavy, and we're already juggling so much, right? And I know you hear moms talk about kind of losing their identity in motherhood. I've never honestly been able to relate to that because I've it's just, but it has changed my identity, right? It definitely has. And so in the middle of like all of these things changing, and then there's all of these distractions, all of these things that can be really discouraging. I just look around and I see so many women who have genuine faith, but there's no rhythms in their life to support that. And not like in a legalistic way, but just they don't have structures in their life to help them reset. And there's trillions of dollars being spent to take our focus off of him. And so I do just think we are living in a time where you have to have some rhythms in place to intentionally come back, or we are, we're just gonna get lost in the sea of doubt and discouragement and distraction. And that can feel it, it just doesn't align with our identity, right? And our purpose. Our purpose is to to know Jesus and seek him and help other people find him. And when we get so pulled off track from that, we're gonna mentally struggle. We're gonna feel like we're not showing up the way that we want. At least that's how I felt.

Three Pillars: Jesus, Body, Nutrition

SPEAKER_01 4:56

In this devotional, you have set it up very much like a building project. And so a woman picks this book up, this devotional up. I know you're gonna just give us some good framework because they're gonna have to wait for the actual devotional for a little while here. Nothing like anticipation. But walk us through a little bit of the pillars that you kind of walk through in this book to set up a foundation for what some of those rhythms that you were just talking about, how these pillars can set us up for success.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, for sure. And so this was really kind of born over the COVID years. I mean, it feels like a long time ago, and yet I feel like so many of us were still like, there's still things in our life that are affected by it. So I do talk about three pillars. And again, that came out of a COVID season where my business had changed so much. Of course, our day-to-day with school had changed so much, and everything just felt off. And so really got to a place where I was, I was just hiding so much from my responsibilities, definitely in a place of confusion and discouragement. And so I kind of stepped back and was like, okay, Lord, what are the things that are the most important? If we're gonna major in the majors here, what are the things that are the most important? Help me clear the fog. And the three things I came up with were time with Jesus, training your body, and then intentional nutrition. I started kind of creating this group in in my community on, okay, let's just touch these three pillars every day. And if we can touch these three pillars, then we're gonna call the day a success. No matter what else happened, like if you can focus on these, whether you went above and beyond in them, or you just touched them, this is the measure of regroup and of success that we're gonna use. And so that's kind of where it started. But then the imagery, as I was walking people through that and I was talking with different people in this community we created, I was like, gosh, like time with Jesus, it's not just one of the pillars. The nutrition piece is so important for us to show up well and have the energy to show up the way that we want. Training our body, of course, goes with that. But if we don't have the framework of Jesus, those are load-bearing walls, but Jesus is really the framework, and Christ is our is our foundation. So that's kind of where that imagery was born, and then it just went from there. There's so many scripture is so beautiful, and there's so many opportunities for imagery. You know, we're building a life on a hill that we're supposed to be visible, we're not supposed to shrink and hide. And so it just kind of the imagery was there. It's the in scripture.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So I just went with it. I love it. Well, and it's so good because you have this theme that kind of works through the whole devotional about construction and demo day. Let's transition a little bit to the demo day. I love that you set this up with a group of women, specifically in a time like COVID, when everything just felt so out of control, out of the norms. Then as we get back into normal life, I have noticed in my own life and in the circles that I'm in that I feel like we have had an overall decrease in capacity post-COVID. I feel like COVID and being home and everything being off of our calendars, it has been this process for myself, for kids in school, for different people that I'm around. It feels like it's taken a while to get back on that on-ramp to be able to catch back up. And maybe we never need to catch up. Maybe part of the gift in that was that we saw how overcommitted we were. But talk a little bit about what demo day looks like when you're coming to the table and you're saying, okay, I do feel like my days are super messy. I don't have any rhythms. I feel like I'm invisible. And you said it. We're not called to be invisible. And we're in this weird world where I think there's just a constant struggle of how much of myself do I put out there? How much do I stay behind the scenes and protected? But what did this demo day coming into walking into these three pillars look like for you?

Demo Day: Letting Go Of Expectations

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah. And I think demo day for me is it's kind of personal. Of course, there's things demo day, the things that we need to let go of, those can just be bad habits. They can be things that we know aren't glorifying God, aren't serving the things that are most important. But it can also be like the things that we felt like God led us to, that we thought, and He did very well did lead us to that. And we're on this path, and it's just not going the way that we thought it was gonna go. And it's confusing. And I think that's okay. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. So we're not gonna always understand it. But coming to a place, and it's so easy to say, I'm gonna release the timeline to you, I'm gonna release the expectation to you. But the truth is, like, if you got years stacked on that, it can definitely start to feel like, am I still, am I still building what I'm supposed to be building? Am I still in the right lane? So that's what that's what that meant for me on a personal level, just resurrendering. Lord, this hasn't gone the way that I thought it was gonna go. Certainly over COVID, that was the case, but even since this hasn't gone the way that I thought, the way that I expected. And that's okay. And instead of getting discouraged and thinking, like, well, I just might as well not give my best effort into whatever area, whatever lane you feel like you've been assigned, instead just deciding he's trustworthy, he's deserving of my very best effort, even though I don't understand it. And I'm gonna trust that if it didn't happen, if this dream died, if this healing didn't happen, if whatever path we were praying over or miracle we were hoping for, that if it didn't happen, then we need to just assume that there is something better, right? He's got a bigger picture in mind, and it isn't a time to let go of our best effort. It's our time to double down in our faith and just saying, like, I don't get it, I don't understand it, but I know that you're still trustworthy. And I trust you for the build. You're the architect of my life. I want you to be. So here I am again.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Like you said, demo day is super specific to different individuals. I anticipate that a lot of women who pick up your devotional. I think the title is gonna resonate with a lot of people. That messy day is another thing that you said in the book I had written down. I have to see where I put it here. Was if you walk through my house right now, you would assume that productivity has lost the battle. And it just so much about your writing and listeners, I will say it is it is written like you're having a conversation with a girlfriend. It's real, it's authentic, it's an inside look into the true behind the screen of motherhood and life at home. And I think one thing that a lot of moms will come to the table with, or if we were just sitting around having a conversation, the the conversation of I don't have enough time, my schedule is out of control, I don't have enough quiet, I don't have the perfect time. What would you say to moms that are in all the different messy seasons of motherhood, whether it's a newborn or toddlers or grade school or now in these high school and young adult years? I feel like we have kind of made an image of relationship with Jesus has to be really clean and quiet and thoughtful. And I do it does have to be thoughtful. But what would you say just about the importance of getting the pillar of time with Jesus as an everyday activity in your life, no matter what season you're in?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah, I mean, honestly, the my first thought is I don't know how you're doing it without it. I just it's it's so much heavier. The things that are confusing are so much more confusing, right? If you if you truly don't have that. And as far as what season you're in, to to what you said about feeling like we need to clean up, like God knows what season you're in. He sees that baby, he sees that spit up on your shirt, or he sees that you are running all the kids to all the things and he sees that. And I think this isn't a new thing. So many times, maybe we invite someone to church and they have an addiction that they're embarrassed about, or they they think they need to get cleaned up just to walk in the doors of a church. And maybe you're past that, but you still hold on to that a little bit and don't realize it. Like, oh, like this is so messy. He is your maker and he knows everything about you. And I think the beautiful thing is he's an approachable king. We are able to come straight to him. And that's one of the things that I talk about in the devotional. You know, I love to read books, I love to listen to podcasts and audiobooks. But I think so many times we're just getting secondhand inspiration from God's other children. Instead of meeting directly with him, he has something specifically for you. And if you're not meeting with him, you're gonna miss that because his voice is often quiet. It's often the whisper, and the world is loud. So it doesn't have to look pretty. But she talks about all these babies around her and puts her her cover over her head. And her kids know you can't talk to me when I've got my cover over my head or my blanket over my head because I'm talking with Jesus. So even if it's just a couple minutes, I just I really don't know. I truly don't know how people do it without it.

Time With Jesus In Messy Seasons

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I love that you mentioned that number one, you can't do it without it. And he sees you. And I think of that analogy that you gave of we think we have to get all cleaned up. And yet, when we think about our own children, like if we felt like our kids weren't coming to us or they said, I made this bad choice, or I haven't been doing what I know my mom wants me to do. And so my response is I'm going to continue to avoid her because that's what she would want. When the reality is we would welcome our broken, fallen children to come to us at any moment to have that face-to-face relationship. And also, just really powerful what you said about secondhand inspiration that we're getting. I think the beautiful thing about the digital age that we're in is that we have so much access to so much stuff. We have the podcasts, we have the YouTube channels, we have the online sermons, we have the audible books, the real books. I mean, there is so much available that you can get information. And we often fall into a trap of replacing that with going right to the source. And so I think that is just a really, really powerful, powerful thing. So just in the motherhood stage, I was reading in your devotional, I think it was day 19 about ordinary days and where just everyday activities of motherhood can just start to feel kind of like wah, wah, wah. And I love that you said you've never felt like you lost yourself in this stage because it's what you have felt called to. I can say the same, but I would absolutely fall into the category of sometimes it feels like we're just kind of flipping the pages of a calendar. We do the same thing every day. What would you say in that, in that day, you you dug in a little bit into Martha versus Mary? And, you know, Martha is, I'm a hundred percent a Martha, that I'm gonna cook, I'm gonna clean, I'm gonna make you feel welcome. It's gonna be a little bit of a production, not because I'm trying to impress you, but because hospitality is my thing. And then I can look at the Marys in my life who are just sitting having conversation that seem totally unaware of all that I'm doing. What would you speak in to moms, whether they fall into the Martha or the Mary about their ministry in the ordinary days of showing up every day for your kiddos?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah. And I think, I mean, we hear so much, especially I know you and I both we work from home. So there is, there's distractions everywhere. And so many of the like entrepreneur books are would say, like, clean up your life, like clean up your space so that you have more mental energy. And I'm there's truth to all of that, but it I think it comes back to priorities. What is your top priority? My time with Jesus, it is my very top priority. And that doesn't mean that there's been stages where it's been the very first thing that I could do, but it's always been the very at the very first margin of time that I had. It's the thing I come back to. And again, it's just because it's my favorite part of my day. That's nothing impressive about me. And my hope truly is that this devotional, and again, there's so much other great content out there to help, but my hope is like I want this to be a time that you just crave because that's how I feel about it. I just crave this time. And yes, sometimes I have to look away. My office that I do my devotion in is adjacent to the kitchen, and I can look across at any moment and see the dishes and see the mess and see the stick-on nails on my kitchen table. And those things are important. I want us to have a healthy home, but I'm gonna show up my best as the mom of this home whenever my priorities that's first. It just and I talk about in the devotional, like it's very easy to be team Martha. Like she was doing all the things, Jesus. Can't you see that? If Mary would just get up and help, it would be lighter work. But no, she had it right because our purpose is to have that relationship with him. To what you just said. We want our children to come to us, mess and all, and so does our heavenly father. It's just what we were created for. Hard stop.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

I once heard, and it might have even been my mom that said, There are so many things that we stress about over and over that we got to get done, we got to get done, we got to do the dishes, we got to do the laundry. And yes, these are all a main player in our household's functioning. But also, even if you get those things done tomorrow, you're gonna have to do them again. And so it's not these lists of if I just get it done, it's done. It's is it really going to hurt anything? If there's other good things that I want, if I want this time with Jesus, which should be our priority, I believe that he would be so thrilled to say, hey, let the dishes sit overnight. Not a big deal. Come spend 15 minutes with me. Again, we can so equate that into our relationship with our people. If my husband is constantly doing his to-do list and him and I have had no time, what's gonna be more beneficial for me and our relationship for him to just maybe not do the stuff in the garage that would technically be on his to-do list or to come spend time in relationship. And I think that's such a good reminder to us moms, as just like sometimes the to-do list, you just you gotta leave it. You gotta leave it, you gotta step away. And you have to start creating these ruts of habit. And I do feel, and maybe we talk about this a little bit, Devin, is that the habit of sometimes we just start doing it literally just to create the habit that it might not even feel like, man, I'm getting so much out of this. I'm seeing the results of this. We know in our hearts it's the right thing. What would you maybe speak into that? Maybe somebody who says, Man, I try to do this and I don't feel like I'm getting anything from it. What would you say just about creating that habit and staying faithful in it?

Martha And Mary: Choosing What Matters

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, there's a day in the devotional, it's called Kumbaya optional. And it's like, do you think that you're doing it wrong? Because in your mind, there's this whole ambiance and just feel yourself bathed in the Holy Spirit, and you just feel like you got specific direction that day. And it's just there's soft worship music playing in the background. Like, you know, is that what you're picturing? And all these feels. And I hope that you get that. And sometimes I think that you will, but again, it's just about the intention. I mean, at the end of the day, you cannot strengthen a relationship with someone you do not spend time with to what you just said. And so I think that there it is so God-honoring to just show up and say, Here I am again today. Here I what do you need to say to me? And sometimes there's a quote in there by John Mark Homer that I put in there that he talks about it's his chair by the window, and sometimes his mind just ping-pongs back around. Sometimes he gets a word from God, but more times than not, he's just sitting there and available. It's a posture that says, Here I am, I'm ready for what you need to share with me. And also, like that can feel uncomfortable. We're not used to that. We're used to constant things in our mind, and so it's definitely untraining ourselves a little bit. But I really think the posture of just here I am, like, do you have something for me today? And if not, I'll be back tomorrow. Or I'm gonna check in with you later today as well, because we talk about some other rhythms. For me, time with Jesus, it is the framework in the morning, but goodness, it's not enough because you know, there's the whole rest of the day. And sometimes I can feel like I started my day with Jesus as the foundation, and then by lunch, all of a sudden I'm building on sand, even though I don't want to be, but I'm building on people's approval or again my own productivity. And so it's more than a morning check-in for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

That kind of leads into, I think, a an important conversation that we need to have more as moms, because there is the benefit of that morning routine or wherever, you know, again, I think different seasons, it's gonna look so different. And we have to be okay with that, just like everything else in life. When we exercise changes different times throughout our parenting. Sometimes it works in the middle of the day. Sometimes it has to be in the evening. Sometimes it's in the morning. I think there's benefit for sure to starting your day with Jesus. But this isn't about perfection. This isn't about it's going to look this way or it's not going to be anything at all. And I think that one thing that I have really tried to do and constantly am just like, Lord, help me to live this out as an example in my house is that a true relationship with Jesus isn't that time in the morning and then we put it away until the next day. It's this constant showing up in your home and having evidence of I'm in constant relationship. I'm praying without ceasing. I'm praying out loud when things come to mind. I'm praying over my kids. I'm praying for their dad at work when we know he's going into a stressful meeting. We have praise and worship music on. What would you say is a way that we as moms are building and shaping and living by example for our kids what actively it looks like to walk day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment in our homes with Jesus and how that impacts our kids and how they then kind of perceive their relationship with Jesus moving forward. I know that's not one that we kind of had on our notes, but any thoughts on that one?

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Yeah, I love that question because I found myself in that as a young adult, right? I was raised in the church. And then whenever I was kind of on my own to start creating my own church habits, or where was I going to attend all these things? I did. I feel like I boxed him in a little bit. And it was like, okay, if I, you know, spent time in the Bible that morning or I listened to a sermon on the way to work, then I could kind of check mark my time with Jesus. And if I didn't do it, then oh gosh, right before bed, I need to read a one-page devotional or something. But if I got it in, then I could switch to a true crime podcast, or I could switch to secular music. And it's not that there's anything wrong with those things, but I had really boxed him in. And I think to even what you were just saying there, like there's a tendency and there's an old part of me that God is still working on that sometimes I'm like, gosh, that sounds kind of boring. Like that sounds horrible to say. I think I had forgotten he's the source of joy too. That's not my natural tendency to think about him like that. And I think that's what I want to teach my kids. I want to continue to learn it and see it. And I there's proof in my life, but it's definitely something that I have to come back to. Like, am I fine, am I seeking him out for the joy, for the relaxation? Not because I need to, not because a healthy home has worship music in the background, but because he's truly the source of joy. Because he is. He's anointed with joy, right? That I remember the first time I'm sure I had read it before, but it really struck me one day. I'm like, okay, he's anointed with joy. So he's like the joy guru out there. Like, I didn't have him in my mind labeled as that. He was the person I would go to for clarity and wisdom, but not who I was gonna find my rest in, not who I was gonna feel restored in or joy or laughter. And so I think intentionally inviting him into those places, asking him to frankly teach us show me how, show me what true joy looks like. Because you know what? It's not, it's not actually sitting on the couch and binge watching a TV show. You rarely feel better after that. It's not scrolling on your phone for hours, and these are the things we reach to for restoration and joy. I just think that's not what he intended.

Beyond Mornings: A Daylong Walk With God

SPEAKER_01 25:22

The whole joy thing, that is one of the things that I'm I'm praying and asking God for the most this year. I have just I kind of started to feel it mid last year. Like, Lord, I just want joy to be my default. And so then when you start looking at if that's what I want, how how do I get that? Because I talk all the time about how different being happy is versus being joyful. And I don't pray for my kids to be happy. I pray for my kids to be joyful because when you look at the Bible and you look at joy and the verses like, the joy of the Lord is my strength. When we're at home and we are feeling weak and worn out and unseen, and you read things like the joy of the Lord is my strength. And you mentioned kind of what that feels like in home. And again, such a prayer of my heart is that the aroma of my home, because when people come into your home, when you walk into somebody's house, when you walk into a building, you are picking up what they're putting down. You sense what's happening in that environment. Is it heavy? Is it negative? Is it discouraging? Or do you walk in and something as simple as the praise music? And again, that doesn't make you holy. Praise music playing in the background, like you said, doesn't make you holy. But when that is the aroma and the atmosphere that is happening, it is hard to stay bitter and angry when you have praise music on. I remember as a teenage girl back in the day when we had the six disc CD players. I was pretty awesome, I felt like when I had that in my room. And when I was angry or when I was being punished, I would go upstairs and I would play the most aggressive Christian music because I had to listen to Christian music. I was a PK, but I would find that I would want like the Petra or something that was just like, you know, a little bit rattle my soul music. And I remember one time my mom listens to the podcast. I don't know if she'll even remember this, but when I was sent to my room in a time of an attitude adjustment, and I was told you can only listen to it, it was a certain kind of music. I don't even remember who it was, but basically I was told you can't put on the stuff that's gonna feed into this angst that you have. And there is something so powerful about praise and worship music, specifically praise and worship music that's word-for-word scripture. And I can link in the show notes. I know we've talked about this here several times on the podcast, but seeds of faith, family worship, literal music that is word-for-word Bible verses. Another one by a gal, Abby Houston, that I'll link in Spotify and Apple. Just beautiful, peaceful scripture. And my kids know, I mean, I want to say hundreds of verses because we had that playing in the background of our home over and over and over for years and years. And still to this day, we will play that in the background and just that heart posture of I want my default as a mom to be joy. And to everything that you're writing about in your devotional, if we don't make the foundation of time with Jesus our main priority above all other things that were fitting into our calendar, I truly believe that you will never have true joy, joy that overflows, that's a natural default that then trickles out into the home of our children, that that's what they start to experience and what a gift that is that we can give our kids when we can get that part figured out. And we'll never get it perfect, but man, I want joy to be my default. Devin, I'm gonna switch gears here a little bit. You obviously are stepping out in great faith and doing something. I know there's several places where you talk about maybe feeling underqualified or out of your league when you say you're gonna do some things. And a quote on day 18 says, Sometimes those assignments rarely arrived wrapped in confidence and full of clarity of how it's going to work. What would you say to a mom that's in her home? Maybe she's chosen to be a full-time stay-at-home mom, and she is in the depths of parenting and motherhood. And I think there are some in their seasons where 100% that is your entire calling. That is everything you're supposed to be doing. It is clear that the Lord is not giving you additional things to put on your list and you are supposed to be all in there. I also think that there are seasons and that the world needs more and more women who are willing to talk authentically and who are willing to be real and let people behind the curtain and step out and do some of these scary things. Tell us a little bit about that journey for you to saying yes, maybe being afraid to put your family out there, what that has looked like, and what your encouragement would be to other women that maybe feel like God is nudging them to step into something else, not staying active at home, but there's something else that he also wants them to step into that maybe they're resistant to.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah, I love that question. And I think my first encouragement would be to take a peek in the rearview mirror. Like, have there been other things that he's called you to that you didn't understand, that you took faithful steps towards? And again, we don't always get to see the puzzle pieces come together, but every time we do get a glimpse of it, it becomes confidence building for the next step, even if just a little bit we understood it. And so for me, a big part of cultivating the courage to step out, because I didn't know how to do any of this, Nikki. All of this is new, all of it is new. I don't, I'm chat GPTing literally everything. I've built a website, I've built started an email newsletter and opt-ins and all these things. But I can look back at other times that I have felt like God was nudging me in a direction and I was obedient and it's worked out, right? And I can see God's fingerprints on that. So that would be my first encouragement. And the other thing is, I just think it is time for Christian women, Christian people in general, to just not be so afraid to step out. I think that we have this wrong. If we're supposed to daily be refined and we're supposed to daily becoming more Christ-like, that will not happen in our comfort zone. Like we cannot grow and change in our comfort zone. And I remember a long time ago hearing that you have to stretch to grow, and stretching is uncomfortable, right? You're working out, you're you're doing new muscles and stretching like there's a tension there. And I just think sometimes we think, well, it has to feel like if this feels uncomfortable to me, then it must not be from God. And I just don't think that's it. I don't see that anywhere in scripture. I don't know how we ever become more Christ-like in our comfort zone, ever. And he does want to use his people. And we have tons of examples in the Bible. Moses saying, Lord, I'm not an eloquent speaker. You want me to go in front of Pharaoh? What are you talking about? You want me to lead all these people? Right? And we have Noah, he didn't know what he was doing. There's example after example in the Bible of people that were very unequipped, but they were still called. And they chose to have courage and they chose to say, even if it doesn't work out, even if it doesn't make sense, I'm willing to lean in where you called me. And I just think we get that wrong sometimes in circles. We think if it doesn't feel good, real comfy, then it must not be from God.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yes, we certainly love to live in our comfort zone. How would you say right now that motherhood in a way is shaping your relationship with Jesus? What in just the role that you're playing in the home and in in what he's teaching you and and evolving in you? How has motherhood really helped shape the need and the understanding of your relationship with Jesus and just what is he doing to refine you in this stage?

Joy As A Default In The Home

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yeah, I mean, there's nothing like putting a putting a mirror up to your insecurities, right? And I think for me, like my kids is the thing that I wrestle with God the most over. I just love them so much. And I have to remind myself that he he loves them more. And so just honestly, it is almost a daily, at times it's been a daily surrender of silly things like soccer tryouts and basketball tryouts. And I'm like, Lord, so thankful that you're a god of details and that you do in fact care. But just trusting, trusting him with their future. I write a little bit about our youngest we adopted from foster care, and there's a trauma there, and there's things that she was born with that it's gonna be more challenging. And there's there's whenever we don't have control, which c control is an illusion anyway, right? But there's plenty of things over the course of that season and even post-adoption, since we've adopted her from foster care, that I've just had to say, Lord, I'm sure glad that you're in charge because I I just I don't know. I don't know how this is gonna go. And so if there's one habit that I hope my kids take is I hope that they see that I am a mom that's not afraid to to step out. I'm not afraid to make mistakes. By no means am I pretending my kids know I'm so far from perfect, but I hope that they see that Jesus is the most important relationship in my life, and that my top goal for them is for Jesus to be the most important relationship in their life. That is the number one goal for them to know him and seek him and help other people find him. And so our kids are paying attention, right? I can tell them all day to go read their Bible, but if my Bible isn't open, if I'm not coming back, and I you talked about being vulnerable, and I think honestly, Nikki, that's one of the reasons I've always been so drawn to you. You're just so approachable. And those are the people that I'm attracted to, the people that I don't need to feel like I always say the word puffy. I don't like puffy people that kind of like lead with their ego. I don't want my kids to have that life either. I want them to be humble, but yet confident and rooted in who they are. I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah, it does. I mean, so much of well, and thank you for that. I have felt so called in the last 10 years or so to just show up authentically in a world that feels very puffy. I like that definition of it, not how we would normally think of it, but just to deflate the balloon of ego and to come and be real and honest, it's why this podcast was born, because I think there is just such a need for real life conversation about messy, messy days. I love that that's the name of your devotional. And just to what you were just saying, we spend, if we really had to inventory, if there was a way that we could have something where we're marking down the the 24 hours in our day and then take the hours that were with our children and categorize them into the time that I'm spending with them, what is it focused on as the end goal? Is it the sports achievement? Is it the good grades? Is it the SAT? Is it the, well, who's their girlfriend? Who's their boyfriend? What are they gonna do as a career? There's so much that we spend so much time on that at the end of life, I pray that my kids have wonderful, full lives and that God calls them into wonderful jobs and marriages and all of the things. But if they don't know, love, follow, and want relationship with Jesus, then to me, I don't care about all the other stuff. And it just so quickly brings into perspective that more is caught than taught. And what we are doing as moms in our home, we're not doing a devotional in the morning so that our kids look and say, Oh, mom's so godly. We need to take that time in the morning and let that be the overflow that then comes through the day and how we communicate with them. I am praying that over the last couple of years, as digging into the Bible has become, like you said, exciting and passion. Not that every day I walk away with like this, wow, mind blown. I can't believe what I learned. There are days when I literally pray at the end of my Bible reading, specifically sometimes in the Old Testament. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about any of that. It feels gruesome and it feels like a lot of names and genealogy, but Lord, I'm gonna trust that you have said that your word is alive and it's breathing and living, and that if I keep showing up, that it is going to feed me just like the food feeds me that I love and it's my favorite food and it just tastes so good. And then there's sometimes the bowl of Greek yogurt that I'm eating because I know it's sustaining me, even though it doesn't taste good. And I don't totally want that. And I think that sometimes is the reality of our digging into relationship with Jesus. And I think we're afraid to admit that. Like you said earlier, sometimes it doesn't feel amazing and it does feel boring, but it's the faithfulness in showing up that then it starts to change us over time. It's not, we we want everything quick fix in our society. It's an overtime growth that then starts our children start to see. And what I was trying to say without all that extra is that my prayer is that my kids would see their mom evolving, that this is not, oh, she reads her Bible and she's done, that they would start to see change in my life, that they would start to see more and more joy as a default, less and less pity parties and selfishness and loss of control, and that they would just start to see that transformation in me as I continue to dig deeper and deeper into God's word. To kind of close this up here, Devin, what would you say as this devotional comes out? So we're not gonna say we're gonna wait nine months for women to dig into the word, but what would you say is your biggest hope for women if they pick up this devotional or if they they go get something else? And maybe you have a great resource that you would share of where a good place to start if you're just wanting to get into God's word. And then, of course, in a couple of months, when yours comes out, we'll be sure to share it with the listeners as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, I do have a guide that I made partnered with the gal that leads up our women's women's ministry at our church. And so it's just different time with Jesus recommendations and it's kind of categorized by different subjects or how much time you feel like you can commit. So that's available. Maybe you could put my email newsletter in your show notes if they reach out through that.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

We will be sure to link Devin's website and email address and all of the things so that you can find and follow her. But what is just your biggest hope for women as they start to have a solid, solid foundation and framework this time with Jesus? We all kind of know how to train our bodies. We all know how to have thoughtful nutrition, and there's gazillions of resources for that. But what would you really hope for women as they start to navigate this time with Jesus would be just a hope that maybe women never forget and that they carry with them through the day.

Stepping Out Of Comfort Into Calling

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, I mean, I would just encourage you to start. James Clear talks about habits. You're just putting a nail. We talk about this in the devotional a lot. You're just putting a nail in the framework. So whether it's two pages, two verses, and then again, for me, I think the open journal is so important for just a few minutes to say, I'm here, Lord, I'm listening. And to what you said just a second ago, there's that is gonna look different daily. As women, we're wired. There's different weeks of the month that we're more action-oriented, and there's weeks of the month that more were more reflective. So you're not doing it wrong. If you sit down with an open journal and you've got literally, sometimes mine just says, Dear Lord, help. And it's because I don't have any words that day, but I'm here and I'm ready to listen. And there's days that there's paragraphs. So I would just encourage, just start. You're not gonna do it wrong if your intention is to spend time with your father. It is the most important relationship in your life. And there's really not a way to, there's not a posture of doing it wrong, as long as it's humble. And again, just recognizing him for the approachable king that he is.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

So great. Well, I am so excited for your devotional to come out. I feel super honored that I've been able to read through it as a preview. And again, I've said it over and over. It's such an easy, relatable read. Every day has a lot of scriptures to back up a small devotional that's been written. It has songs that you can listen along with the devotional, which speaks to my soul because I am a praise and worship girl through and through. So I love that. But just such a great resource that will be available for women. But in the meantime, the encouragement here today, and the reason that Devin and I were having this conversation is because we both feel so strongly that a mom who's rooted in the truth of the Bible will just be able to go about her days in a different way than those that are kind of floundering on their own strength. And I don't mean that in a cocky or arrogant way. The only strength that Devin and I have is coming from something that is not our own. And so when we try to work in our own power, it is lonely and it is exhausting and it does feel very ordinary and mundane. And just bringing in this whole new lens of this is a ministry. I have been called to this home, to these kids, to this spouse, to if it's a workplace, to the job as a ministry. And when you get that fuel that's coming from that time with Jesus and that relationship with him, that all of a sudden makes sense. Everything starts to make sense, whether it's the smallest thing that we're doing or the biggest thing that the whole world is seeing when we're doing it, fueled with that relationship with Jesus, everything about it changes. And it is our prayer that this would ripple down. Very, very last question I'm gonna ask you, Devin is how have you tried to incorporate outside of just your children witnessing you doing it, how have you incorporated time with Jesus for your children? Again, I think 10, 13, and 16 years old, how are you making this something that is a part of their framework?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah, and I just think this is so important. And I do feel like as they're in different stages, I'm constantly coming back and asking for wisdom. But the one thing I've tried to communicate to my kids is I want to mother through a lens of vulnerability as well, is just telling them, like, I am gonna mess this up. He is the only one I'm gonna let you down. I don't want to. Being your mom is the most important thing. I don't want to let you down. He is the only one that will not. He's it. And he needs to be your source. And so, very practically, that's looked like just having different resources, trying to keep things fresh for them, different books for them to grab. Easter is kind of my yearly check in. We don't celebrate Easter baskets and all the chocolate real well or never really have, but that's That's when I kind of check in. So again, it just is a little bit of a framework in a system of it's a good time of year to check in. And we're getting closer to that time, right? So maybe just start digging in and what are they reading? Of course, getting to spend a few minutes with them in the evening. I don't do that with my 16-year-old. He would think it's strange if I climbed into bed with him, I think, and rubbed his back. But my middle kiddo still lets me do that. My younger one still lets me do it. And just very practically plugging them into youth groups, plugging them into church, asking them what they're learning, reminding them as they're zoning out on YouTube or TikTok or wherever they're spending their time. How are you feeling after you've done that? Are you getting joy from that? Because you haven't laughed in a little bit. It's been a day or two. It seems like this isn't healthy for you. So I think the older one, and I know your youngest is the same age as my oldest, but so it's like learning how to just loosely guide. I just hope to have influence still. That that's really the goal at this point is I I'm not gonna be shoving a study in his hands and demanding that he do it, but I'm gonna try and gently encourage and influence. And then the younger, my youngest is just turned 10 yesterday. So get a little bit more like let's read this together. So just practically having resources available and just asking them questions about what they're consuming, helping them think about what they're consuming.

Motherhood, Surrender, And Trust

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Helping them think about that's good. I it makes me think of I had somebody tell me once that we as parents, we all were kind of brought up in this era of we have to have the talk with our kids about sex and sexuality and how that concept doesn't work of like there's gonna be this one time that we talk about it. And instead, a a friend who was actually a sex and marriage therapist said to me, You have to talk about that all the time, like it's normal, like just in the same way that you would talk about you need to brush your teeth and you need to make your bed and you need to put clean clothes on and you need to eat your breakfast, that just talking about bodies and how God created us, that that just has to be normal. And I think the same thing is true. That's kind of a weird segue, but it came to me as like I think it's the same thing about relationship with Jesus. If if we really want our kids to have this relationship with Jesus, we have to A model that we're doing it, but he has to be a primary focus of our conversations of every day. Of when I remember growing up, when we would see that we lived very close to the hospital and the meta flight helicopter would fly over. And every time that we heard that or that we passed by a major car accident, my mom would literally, no matter what, stop and pray. If it was we were in the kitchen doing something and we heard the meta vac, she just stopped and prayed. If we were passing a car accident, she just naturally stopped and prayed. It's this every day, all day, inviting God into the conversations when we drive. When your kid brings up the conversation about something that happened with a friend that was hurtful, let's talk about what maybe is going on in their life and how does God see them and how can we show them Jesus' love instead of being bitter or being angry. And it's just this ability that we have, that the word of God and a relationship with Jesus becomes a second language in our home that's tied through from the time we rise up to when we sit at the table to when we walk through the doorways. The Bible talks about that in Deuteronomy. Train your children up in the ways of the Lord in every aspect. Invite him into every corner, every closet, every meal, and watch that become their default.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

And let your kids see the mess a little bit too. I mean, I just think that if the goal, of course, with our children too, is to have a good relationship with them when they're adults. One of the ways that I've tried to cultivate that is whenever I'm going, when I'm doing a new devotional project and I'm a new writer and I'm totally out of my league, or I'm going for a goal and something or something doesn't make sense to be okay to share that with my kids and say I'm just trusting and I don't know how this is gonna go. And then that way you can, if you're showing that example and you're having that conversation and you're not pretending, I think our parents' generation, it seemed like they wanted to present as like they they've got it all together. I don't really remember my parents having very many vulnerable conversations with me. And I'm not saying that that's right or wrong, but that isn't how I'm choosing to parent my kids. I want to invite them in to the things that I don't understand because I want them to see that I'm trusting him anyway. There's gonna be things in their life that they're not gonna understand, and I want them to know to trust him anyway, right? So I think so much of it is just living it out. But the more we live it out on our own life, the more that they're gonna see it naturally in theirs.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

It's so good. And that's such a great place to wrap up. Like you had said, right? What attracted us to each other is the real life. And that's how true relationship is formed when we don't feel like it's performative. We don't feel like I can't let her in until I clean up my house or I dust my baseboards or I have the dishes done. And I think what you said is so, so profound in the same way with our kids when we let them see that, hey, I'm struggling. This feels hard. This isn't the result I wanted. This isn't the disease that I asked for. It's not the struggle I prayed about. And yet I'm trusting God. And I want you guys to walk through that with me when it's hard, when I'm kicking and screaming, and also when I'm surrendering and just trusting that in the messy days, He is an unbelievably mighty God. What a great name for a devotional, Devin. Thank you so much for being here. Any final words before we sign off?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

No, I'm just excited to spend some time with you. And I just think that you have a wonderful ministry here. And no, just grateful. Grateful to know you, grateful to call you friend.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

So well, I feel the same about you and grateful that our listeners got to hear from you today. And thank you for being obedient and walking into something that feels out of your league and scary and trusting that everything that God has brought you through to this point is shaping you for this time and this place to be able to write the devotional and encourage other moms and point other women towards Jesus. So I'm proud of you for following in that. So, listeners, we will be sure to put all of the different things we talked about in the show notes. We will link websites and the praise music and devotionals, lots of great resources for you. If this is something where maybe you're just getting started in this journey with Jesus, or if it's something that maybe you've stalled out and it's that you know in your heart it's a priority, but you haven't let your choices reflect that priority. We can all relate to that. And the beautiful thing is that every day is a new day. His mercies are new every day. And this is something you can pick up today. And he will meet you where you are as you discover him every day, every time you make that choice to make him the center of your life. So we're grateful to have you here every week. We will be back here next week. So until then, friends, take care.