New Jersey Bankruptcy Podcast
Podcast by Daniel Straffi
New Jersey Bankruptcy Podcast
Therapist Explains Bankruptcy Without Trauma
The New Jersey Bankruptcy Podcast, brought to you by Straffi & Straffi Attorneys at Law, tackles the emotional and financial overwhelm that listeners often face when considering bankruptcy. In this episode, therapist Malka Shaw breaks down the mental load that comes with financial hardship and shares practical tools to navigate stress, shame, and uncertainty. Listeners walk away knowing they’re not alone—and that manageable, realistic steps are available to regain control.
Podcast Takeaways:
- Start small with daily gratitude to gently shift your mindset toward progress.
- Limit screen time to keep your nervous system calmer and clearer.
- Use sensory-based grounding whenever worry pulls you out of the present.
- Replace negative self-talk with more realistic, supportive statements.
- Keep a structured routine to stay motivated during uncertain periods.
- Reach out early for help when money problems begin impacting daily life.
- View financial setbacks as turning points rather than defining failures.
- Share your worries with trusted people instead of holding everything in.
- Accept help from community networks when stress becomes unmanageable.
- Track how long and how often symptoms occur to decide when to get professional care.
About the Guest
Malka Shaw is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and educator who has spent more than 25 years helping individuals and families build resilience through life’s most challenging moments. Her experience—from working in the aftermath of 9/11 to supporting clients through trauma and financial stress—offers meaningful guidance for anyone considering bankruptcy in New Jersey.
About Daniel Straffi Jr.
Daniel Straffi Jr. hosts the New Jersey Bankruptcy Podcast and guides individuals through the bankruptcy process with clarity, compassion, and practical advice. His approachable style and dedication to helping people understand their options make him a trusted voice for those navigating financial difficulties.
About the Show
The New Jersey Bankruptcy Podcast is designed for anyone facing debt, financial hardship, or uncertainty about their legal options. Each episode offers honest conversations, practical perspectives, and accessible guidance to help listeners make informed decisions about bankruptcy and financial recovery.
Youtube: https://youtu.be/9rsYbcWvn0E
Good afternoon everybody. Welcome to the New Jersey Bankruptcy Podcast, powered by the law firm of Straffi Straffi. I'm your host Daniel Straffi, Jr. Today, I'm joined by Malka Shaw, a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, educator, and consultant who helps people move from struggle to strength. Malka, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Malka Shaw:Thank you so much for having me.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Absolutely. To start, give us an idea of your background. How did you get involved with this line of of work? What inspired you?
Malka Shaw:Okay. That's a great question. So I've been in the field of mental health for over 25 years, and I have a varied wide range of experience and I've been in private practice for over 18 years. I think I was inspired, basically from my childhood, from my Jewish values. For your viewers who are not aware, we have a value called Tikun Olam. This idea of fixing the world, leaving the world a better place. I grew up with parents who were very much involved in volunteerism, in activism. My father was very much in global activism and involved in our town from community sports to helping with large scale things, working with UJA Federation and our temple. So I was always told that it was our obligation to leave the world a better place. I think maybe I took it. My father was a businessman and did it on the side and instead of going into business or law, I went into social work. I always wanted to help people and I really felt that it was my calling. I was always that go-to person in college that at three o'clock in the morning when people were crying their eyes out in the dorm floor, I was the person people were coming to. I wish I had the knowledge or the boundaries back then that I have now, but that's really where it was. I was always inspired to help people. And then I think what really pushed me forward was living in the city during 9/11. I was working with the first respo. I wound up by accident, working with Red Cross and FEMA, and in the aftermath of Project Liberty and so forth. And really saw large scale trauma and the devastation that it could have on a community. But I also saw how a community could come together and how we could heal even in something that's just so devastating. And it was something that just transformed my life in a way that as the years pass, I think I have a bigger and broader understanding of it.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Were you in private practice at that time or did that kind of move you forward in that regard?
Malka Shaw:No. I actually don't recommend doing private practice until you have at least about 10 years experience in the field. And that's gonna be a little bit controversial to some people who are in the field watching your podcast'cause the younger generation seems to wanna go straight from graduate school to private practice. I think you need to get that agency experience. I had a wide diverse experience. I worked with immigration, foster care. I actually worked in Harlem with ACS as Child Protective Services, working in child protective service prevention program. I had a wide range of experience and I actually worked abroad for a year and a half. And then I came back to my apartment on the Upper West Side, and lo and behold, this is what happened. I was about a week in and 9/11 happened.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Unbelievable.
Malka Shaw:I remember too,'cause I was supposed to start it. I had a job lined up that I was supposed to start on 9/12. Obviously I did not start that job at 9/12'cause I was in the trenches. I was Piers and that really shaped me. And my father was very supportive. I really grew up with these values. My father called, I called on these, all the self service was down. There quote, if I'm not for myself, then who am I? That's a quote from a famous rabbi, and my father said that to me on the phone. My mom, like a typical Jewish mother, panicked and said, don't go down there. What you are you doing?
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Come home.
Malka Shaw:Yeah. But I went down there and we couldn't go all the way down to the end and I wound up, Chelsea Piers is a sporting center and we were really just waiting and we actually didn't have anybody to serve for about the first 48 hours. And then we wound up debriefing the firefighters and the police officers.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Wow. What a profound experience and to set a course for you it's just unbelievable. And I do believe in what you indicated there as far as getting into private practice. I think you need to take your licks a little bit for a while, certainly in the legal end. You know, being in the courtroom five to 10 years before you hang that shingle. It sounds like you had a similar experience and as far as the younger generation is concerned.
Malka Shaw:I do. And also in my field, we did something called Postgraduate Institute, where it's a more hands-on study, more than academic study. And I do find that people are doing more of these online quickie certificates. I also took a year to really do postmaster's work, where I was really hands-on training, clinical training. So of that really shaped me into becoming the psychotherapist that I am today.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Terrific. in reading up on you, one of your taglines or mottos is that perspective is power. When life feels out of control, uh, whether from financial stress, loss, personal struggle, whatever it might be, what does shifting perspective look like in real life?
Malka Shaw:I really felt like this was a good way to incorporate both my lived experience and the work that I've been doing the past two years as a Jewish therapist dealing with Jewish trauma in the post 10/7 world how I thought about my individual clients. How can I put it all together? And what I really realize is we can't always control what happens to us, but we can choose how we interpret it, how we respond, and what meaning we give to it. That is in line with a specific type of therapy called logotherapy from Viktor Frankl, who is a Holocaust survivor. And it's about making purpose. So shifting perspective doesn't mean we're gonna pretend that things are fine when they're not. It's about widening the lens. So when someone's in pain, the focus is not what's lost or what's wrong, it's about stepping back and seeing what is still there. What's our strengths? What's our values? What's our capacity for growth? What can I learn from this? not about diminishing the pain, but transforming it. And that's really the basis and the crux of resilience and the ability to look at that same set of circumstances and find the meaning. Find your strength. It's about taking that step forward, even though it's painful. Hmm. Doesn't that it's not painful anymore. It's that I'm going to keep going even though it's still painful.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:And transitioning someone through that, I would imagine a lot of anxiety comes for folks who haven't had to maybe power through those types of experiences before whether it be a big decision ahead for someone or a difficult conversation. Is there any type of grounding technique that people can use to help calm themselves and focus on that sort of resiliency?
Malka Shaw:So it's great that you say that I think this whole idea of somatic and grounding techniques, I wish I knew about this back in 9/11 in my earlier days because this really only became maybe in the mid two tens. But I think that it is really important to be aware of the fact that trauma and anxiety does stay with our body. When you talk about anxiety, it's two things. Either we're ruminating about what happened in the past, we're worried about what's happening in the future, and grounding techniques is all about getting us here in the now. And when we're in and reminding clients that here in the present, we're safe. When you're here with me, whether it's a virtual therapy room or in person therapy room, in the present, we're safe. We do teach very simple techniques. There's breathing exercises. My favorite one to teach people is a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, where we go through the different senses. I will often ask you to take a deep breath then ask you five things you could see, four things you could hear, three things you could touch.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:It got taste, somewhere in there.
Malka Shaw:Usually we do taste last things and smell. The reason we do that is it really centers you and gets you back into the moment. We take a breath in between and you just kind of more grounded and focused. And then now we can focus on one problem at a time and that allows us to say, okay. Let's take a step back. Let's look at the perspective of where it is, and who are we giving our power over to. lot of times people will come to me and say, this person's doing that at work, or this is happening, and I ask, are you really willing to give them that much space in your head, that much power in your head?
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Right?
Malka Shaw:Let's focus on what is okay, and what you do have your own power. And then we could slowly take your power back. Not everything is in control, and that's where trauma really happens. Trauma is really about when we don't feel in control and when we have our sense of safety taken away from us. So perspective and grounding is all about putting that back into our bodies and giving us our own sense of safety back, even if it's little bits of safety. Because sometimes the world is so upside down that the greater picture isn't safe, but we can find these little micro pieces.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:One step at a time, not you don't have to climb the hill all at once. Being untrained, but being a dad, I feel like a lot of that resonates for me as far as teenagers today. Social media, you know, the grander power that a lot of that can have a child who really hasn't experienced much is feeling a lot. Is a grounding technique something that you use a lot with your adolescent population?
Malka Shaw:5,4,3,2,1 with kids, but I wanna tell you something. I did come up with my own kind of protocol. I call it the guard technique. I created it specifically 10/7 but it works with everybody. So I wanted to just go over a couple quick points. So the first is G. So G is gratitude and people say, oh, that's so simple or a lot of times people are like, well, I'm so angry. how can I focus on gratitude? the answer is very simple, because what's the opposite of gratitude? What happens if you don't have gratitude in your life?
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Well, I think that you, have a lot of resentment. if there's no gratitude, you perhaps can be a bit selfish. You can also be a bit rude in how you interact with folks I think. Because if you don't have gratitude for the good things that you have, then you're be a bit spoiled overall.
Malka Shaw:A hundred percent. It could lead to that entitlement It could lead to bitterness, resentment, and then eventually you're going to try to blame somebody else for your problems instead of taking responsibility for own problems. So we wanna focus on gratitude and there's gratitude techniques. And then the U is about understanding. Especially with kids, I always taught U with unplug and that really literally means unplugging from social media. We do recommend at least 45 minutes, five times a week a minimal. I would even love to see more, but we have to unplug from all of our devices and just really focus on what's important. And the U is really also helping clients understand the process of trauma, understand anxiety, and that psychoeducational And then A is really like working on our attitudes and how our attitudes affects our actions. And that's a lot of what we call CBT, cognitive behavioral and DBT therapy. And then the R is what we were really talking about with the grounding, the reset to reconnect. Regulating the nervous system. And then the D is really how we put it all together in perspective is the defining. We don't have allow this thing to define us. And that's the logotherapy and that's Vitor Frankl. And I feel like it is so apropos because if this line of therapy came from somebody who survived the Holocaust, one of the worst things in human history. And you about making meaning and finding purpose, then we all could find meaning and purpose even in the things that feel unfair. Nobody goes through life without having challenges that feel like are unfair to them. we
Daniel Straffi Jr.:And at that level, I mean, like you said, if they can do it, i mean, unbelievable.
Malka Shaw:Well, the Jewish world just went through it again and to some extent, we're still going through it, but we still have to find our purpose and our meaning. Despite all this that's going through it. So that's all the different pieces. And we put this together as a system. So on a high level, we teach the guard to mental health practitioners, and then we could teach it to leaders, but we could teach it to individuals so they have the skills for themselves to find their perspectives so they could find their own power to get through of life's challenges.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Very good. Now, as a therapist, you see everything. When it comes specifically to financial crises that people are dealing with. What do you observe of folks how do you try to make them kind of get back on their feet so that they don't attach so much of their self-worth to whatever they may experience, maybe experiencing financially as far as money or otherwise?
Malka Shaw:Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. a financial crisis, like a bankruptcy can feel like an earthquake to somebody's sense of identity, because it's not only about the loss of money, it's about that loss of control and safety. And so remember when I was talking about trauma in general, it's a loss of safety, the loss of control and for many, it's that sense of pride. People start to equate their financial situation with their value as a person, and that could trigger a lot of deep feelings such as shame and anxiety and depression. And one of the reasons very deeply is cultural. Our American cultural, our Western values. We've been unfortunately conditioned to measure our self-worth by our productivity and status and our success and our external achievement. Money has become a stand-in for competence or for status. But when you strip that away, what's left is actually the opportunity to really see the deeper self, our relationships, our integrity, our character. So we really wanna do is help people reframe their story instead of saying, I failed. We wanna tell people that I lived through something hard and I'm learning from it. The reality is, whether the crisis is bankruptcy or any other crisis, you are not gonna be the same. you're not coming back The same person. the word resilience was an engineering word for rubber bouncing back. But that's not the psychology term. We're not bouncing back. We are becoming something different. your choice is either going down, spiraling down, becoming bitter, crisis of we can now have a different renewed sense of self, renewed sense of purpose. Learning becoming stronger, and we really don't have a choice, but we have to look at it, that we are gonna become a better versions of ourself. And that's why we say, aging, you learn so much along the way because each thing that was hard was an opportunity for growth and to become stronger and wiser. It's very hard to see it when you're in it because you feel like the ground has been shifted from underneath you. But we have to look at the past things that we've gotten through.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:And I think that someone like yourself is such a good beacon for someone going through that to kind of work. Because I feel like and you've obviously you can speak to it that many times, it's about what kind of partner you have. Whether or not they can also help you through those periods of time. How do you ultimately, if someone doesn't have that support system, try to have them focus on themselves, you know, to be that support in and of themself.
Malka Shaw:One of the things that we talk about as a trauma therapist is what really makes something have a trauma, a trigger, a negative trauma reaction. wanna say that trauma in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. These words, trauma and anxiety, have gotten like a negative rap, but really there are bodies protecting ourselves and they're really how our brain protects ourselves from something that it is alert to as a threat. I mean, I'm not gonna get so much into the neuroscience today but it doesn't to be negative. But one of the things that will stop it is validation, safety, and support. What we have to understand is there's also a difference where we can take that sense of like, I feel humiliated to, okay, I have support. and we also have to understand a difference of peoples. We have to where the individual is coming from. There's different cultural backgrounds. I said, the American culture really does put money and success as a number one priority. There's gender differences. Men may experience financial crisis as a more of a threat to their identity and their worth because they're socialized to equate success with Being a provider, and they'll more likely feel humiliated, withdraw, and see themselves as a failure. Where women will start to see financial crisis in the lens of responsibility or guilt, and they're gonna see it more as fear, maybe fear for their children, more guilt, more the instability because they feel like they have the weight of holding it all together. They may over function or take on over emotional labor and feel like they have to hold it all together. Both these internalized pressures when they're too much can be dangerous because they put too much pressure to perform and protect. And the real healing becomes when the self-worth from financial status is replaced with a shared understanding of communication and agency. And we start to look at it with your partner. if you don't have a partner with whatever your community system is, that it's a we, we step back. what is the community? Is there a community system that's available to support them through this? Different communities have different systems to help people who are going through financial crises Can we let go of our pride and our ego and ask for help. People often feel so ashamed to ask for help, but what you don't realize is you're actually giving people the opportunity to be a helper and so many people wanna be a helper and you will have the opportunity to be help for helper somewhere in the future.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Asking for help though so difficult for some folks. I think that especially people who are used to being providers, if they're dealing specifically with, let's say job loss, you know, that sense of identity that comes from your job or whether it what you earn from that job to have it taken from you. I would imagine that rebuilding confidence is a big part of what your strategy is with folks in order to get them on their feet.
Malka Shaw:And also having too much free time is not good for anybody. We think it's great. It's great for a week. I mean, remember COVID, like, it's great for a week. It's great for two weeks maybe. So one of the things I also tell people is to have a schedule. Even if you're out of work, to lean into having the structure. I tell people to do things that may seem counterintuitive, like they may think that they can't spend money because they're out of work, but I'll say this is the time to take that training course, or go for that extra certification. Invest in yourself, because it makes you feel productive. it makes you feel like you have something that you're doing. And really also when, if you're in the job market, employers wanna see somebody who's busy. And you also will create a different energy about yourself when you're productive in the world. But statistically, it's actually worse for men to have too much free time on their hands. When I say structure, I'm not talking about binging Netflix or dumb scrolling on your phone.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Setting aside time for that.
Malka Shaw:An hour or two. Everyone does it. It's fine. But, do things that are gonna be productive and do things that will get you interactive. My husband was laid off for an extended period during COVID and him and my'cause she was in that Zoom they built a garden together. And he got another certification and then he got a job. That is also ego. He had to take a lower level job. And he bounced, we're five years past. He's past that at this point, and he got out of that job. But sometimes we do have to put that ego aside especially if you're at a certain stage in life, it's hard. that's where perspective comes in. we have to look at that and we have to learn where is our power? And our power is where we can take control of that situation.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:And many people are their own harshest critics. Beat themselves up to no end. How do you help clients practice self-compassion, self-love while still holding themselves accountable? Because there still needs to be that growth, that reentry to a job market if it is job loss. lines. How do you balance the two?
Malka Shaw:That is probably one of the hardest things. I think one of the best things with that is one of the techniques in CBT, which is called cognitive restructuring. When people are self-critical, it's because they have certain voices or certain messages in their head, and they have these automatic negative thoughts. I remember when I learned about it the slides kept saying, these ANT's. But instead of saying ANT's, I call them ants. And then I tell my clients, well, they're ants, so let's not let these little pesky ants spoil our picnic. So we have these techniques on how do we get rid of these automatic negative thoughts, and how do we not allow them to keep going on autoplay in our mind? And how do we replace these automatic thoughts, and the reality is these thoughts, sometimes they're in our heads since childhood because every memory is associated with a cognition, whether or not the cognition is true. We have taught ourselves things like, I'm a failure. I wasn't good enough. It's all my fault, and we have to start to break these down and ask, is this true? Is this helpful? Maybe it's like, I made a mistake, but I'm learning, or I did the best that I could. We have to learn how to rechallenge those thoughts and not let them spoil our picnic. And the picnic being our whole picnic of life. People think that self-compassion is not about taking accountability and it's actually the opposite. It's the condition that makes real change possible. When you stop letting those automatic thoughts run the show, you can create the space for responsibility. And we could be kinder and have grace for ourselves. Then we also become much more empathetic and have grace for other people. And truthfully, that's the world we wanna live in. the culture of the world in general has been so harsh, whether it's in social media or in the real world. We're so harsh and so quick to judge other people. We have to start with ourselves and we wanna create a much more kinder, less judgmental world. We start with ourselves first, and then our family and our community. It's really about starting to ask and challenge these thoughts that are just popping up in our head. it's really hard because we're bombarded with all these terrible messages on social media and the media.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:100%. And detaching from that at whatever age can be extremely difficult because it is just omnipresent no matter what you do. You know, in my practice, in the bankruptcy world, oftentimes we are the option of last resort where people don't think to come to us, even just for a consultation straight away, when those feelings hit of the emotional, mental financial crises. When is the right time for someone to reach out to you for help? What are the markers that someone should be looking for?
Malka Shaw:The one thing that I find interesting about mental health, even in 2025, is there's still this stigma. When you start having a drip in your roof, you're not hesitating to call that plumber. If you think there's gonna be a leak in your house, unless you're personally very handy. But you're not hesitating to deal with your pipes, or if there's a heating problem in your house, or if you had some kind of weird rash, you're not hesitating to get a consult with a dermatologist. But why is it that mental health is the last thing that we're hesitant to get a consult on? So I always say that there's no harm in getting consultation, but really when you wanna look at the markers. The markers are duration, frequency, and intensity. We all experience things like sleeplessness, worrying, anxiety, depression, loss of appetite, increase of appetite. But when the duration, frequency, and the intensity is impacting our ability to work or go to school, our ability to do our daily acts of living, our interpersonal relationships. That's when it's time to have a consult. Everybody has a little bit of something. Everybody might have a little bit of anxiety or a little bit of depression. That's normal, and some things are gonna be part of our personality or the way we are. But what good therapy can do is it can lower the duration. It can lower that intensity and frequency so that it's just at a much more manageable level. We can give you some of those concrete tools so you can manage life's challenges on your own. The goal for therapy is not to be in therapy forever.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Right.
Malka Shaw:The goal for therapy is to learn these skills so that you can become a much more resilient, better version of yourself.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:And before we wrap up Malka, and you've been tremendous, thank you so much for your time. If someone listening today is feeling defeated, feeling stuck. Like they're really don't know which way to turn, whether it be financially, emotionally, both. What is one mindset or practice that you would impart upon them as before they take that next step forward?
Malka Shaw:Attitude of gratitude. A hundred percent. And that is sometimes the heart. Sometimes people think, well, that seems antithetical, but you start with little things. I just be grateful that I had sushi for lunch. Maybe some people can't afford sushi for lunch. Maybe you're somewhere where you didn't have that. Just an attitude of like, I have I this financial stress, but I was able to go for a walk for 10 minutes. If we could start focusing on some of the small things in life that are positive and. take that in every place in your workforce, in your relationships. How many times do people wanna just complain about their spouse without looking at what's positive about their spouse? Nobody you're married to is gonna be perfect.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Marriage takes two to tango. You gotta work at it.
Malka Shaw:But you have to make a choice. Every marriage is about making that choice that I decided that this is my person. Now again, we're not talking about abuse, we're not talking about serious mental illness and I'm not talking about active addiction. Those are very serious things and we're not talking about that. But, I'll just share something personal with your viewers and I'm going to age myself when my practice first started, because now we have all the smartphones, but I remember leaving to go work one night and my husband forgot to tell me a phone message. That's why I'm aging myself.'cause now everybody leaves voice notes and barely use our home line. My husband forgot to gimme a message and I remember being really annoyed. He did not do it maliciously. And then I went to see a couple that night. They maliciously tried to sabotage themselves without getting into details. I don't even remember a hundred percent of the details from this couple because it was more than 15 years ago and it was before smartphones, clearly. And the couple they really nasty to each other. Not just like, oh, I forgot to pick this up at the store, really nasty. And I drove home that night, like, terrible. Like how could I be so upset? had a baby and a toddler at the time. He was working. in, had to commute to the city. This is before working from home. I had to go see clients at night leaving him with the baby and the toddler. And I'm annoyed that he forgot a phone message. Like he didn't do it on purpose it was such an amazing thing that it really put everything in perspective and I had to be really grateful. So we wanna really have that attitude of gratitude and also that recognizing when you have that grace that your partner isn't perfect. Because I'm not perfect. He's not perfect. And we can give that sense of grace. We can kind of step back and say, okay, nothing's perfect and it's okay.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Perspective is power.
Malka Shaw:Exactly.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:And I think it's tremendous that it's been 15 years since your husband is messed up.
Malka Shaw:It's not about messing up, it's about how do we communicate when somebody's maybe disappointed. How do we communicate that disappointment?
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Absolutely. Malka, thank you again for coming onto the podcast. Before we go, give us a plug. Tell us about you, your practice, where people can find you and what's next for you.
Malka Shaw:Okay, great. I do all sorts of things. if you're interested in working with me individually, as a couple, you can reach out through my website and schedule a complimentary 15 minute call to make sure we're a good I will see people both virtually and in person. I'm licensed in New Jersey, New and Florida. I provide trainings and workshops to organizations and companies, both corporate and nonprofit. A new specialty that has unfortunately arrived since 10/7 is working with antisemitism and Jewish cultural competency, a special initiative called The Kesher Shalom Projects. It's different website. You can also look at www.keshershalomprojects.com. Find me on Instagram. I have following on Instagram. Find me on LinkedIn.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:50,000 followers. Mind you.
Malka Shaw:Oh, that's on Instagram, not LinkedIn. Yeah. LinkedIn is harder to get 50,000 followers. But I try and put out a lot of educational material as much as possible and bring me into your organizations. I really enjoy doing workshops and so forth. I really enjoy training new therapists. That's another thing I do clinical supervision and helping therapists as they grow, wanna grow their practices. I was telling Dan I have spoken for the New Jersey Bar Association. I enjoy working with lawyers and other professions, and one of the things that I think is so powerful is we work together, when we work cross discipline, we really can help our the best.
Daniel Straffi Jr.:Fantastic. Thank you so much again, Malka. Take care.
Malka Shaw:Thank you.