The Hard Truth About Building an Outdoor Fitness Business with James Sweeney | 20 Years of Grit & Growth

“It would have been easy to walk away… but we didn’t.”

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod sits down with James Sweeney, co-founder of Essex Boot Camp (EBC), to dive into the gritty reality of building a fitness business from the ground up.

💡 Topics Covered:
 ✅ The unseen struggles of starting a fitness business—early mornings, no-shows, and doubt
 ✅ How James and his co-founder Glynn Roberts built Essex Boot Camp into a well-respected outdoor fitness brand
 ✅ Why the gym model is broken and how outdoor fitness changes the game
 ✅ The importance of resilience and learning from failure
 ✅ How to navigate competition and stay true to your business values

🔥 “The gym model doesn’t work for lots of people—so we built our own.”

📌 If you’ve ever thought about starting a fitness business, or you just want to hear the real, unfiltered truth about entrepreneurship, this episode is for you.

🔔 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business!

Discover more about Essex Boot Camp: https://www.ebcfitness.co.uk

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Transcript

Welcome to Your Mind Your Business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Carina McLeod, entrepreneur and fitness fanatic. And today, we have a special guest, James Sweeney from EBC. Welcome, James.

Well, Essex Boot Camp. Well yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm excited to talk to you today.

I kind of know you sort of know you from where you're at right now, but guess the audience are probably questioning who is James. So I'll let you introduce yourself, and then I'm gonna hit rewind. God. What a massive question that is. I'm not really I'm not really too sure I know myself, to be honest.

So, obviously, from a fitness side of things, how long have you been with ABC for? Oh, about seven or eight years. It's quite a while. That is quite a while, isn't it? It is.

So outdoor fitness. So we've been in the outdoor fitness game, I think, for it's coming up for twenty years, which in itself is a really long time, isn't it? And I've been I think I've been in fitness for, god, twenty five years, I think. Like, a little bit a little bit longer than that. So I've been out for a long time.

You know, like, you sort of question sometimes. I'm still in that industry and not getting any younger, so it's like but still enjoy it. Still massively enjoy it. So twenty years of running Essex Boot Camp or EBC Yep. And twenty five years kind of being in that industry.

I'm guessing well, twenty years is a long time, which is fantastic. So firstly, congratulations. It's a to do anything is a long time. Right? Yeah.

I think, you know, I think you've got to really love something to do for that long. Yeah. 100%. Because it becomes whatever you do, I think, in the end becomes a little bit you gotta be somewhere. You gotta be somewhere in a certain time.

It becomes monotonous, doesn't it? So if you really, really enjoy something, I think, and you love something, then that that gives you sort of, sustainability and longevity in it. Yeah. Definitely. So I'd give that some credence to why we're still here Yeah.

You know, and still doing what we do. And still smiling about it as well. Still smiling. I will add as well. When we when we first started, Glynn and myself used to have a little competition about, how long we could go into the winter wearing shorts.

Right? And I will say that those days are long gone. Like, that that that went about sort of seven or eight years ago. It's just, like, nice, too cold now. Getting a little bit Yeah.

A little bit long in the tooth for that sort of thing. So Yeah. That's it. Age is taking over. Exactly.

Becoming wiser. Exactly that. So we're talking about outdoor fitness, and outdoor fitness seems to be you know, probably people listening today can understand a bit more about outdoor fitness. But I'm guessing if we hit rewind twenty years ago, that probably wasn't a really well known sort of activity. So I'm keen to find out, like, go to the start very much of your entrepreneurial journey because some were you at when you go to the start of your entrepreneurial journey, do you did you ever think of yourself, like, that you would become a business owner and set up a business and have what you have today?

I think if we if we dial all the way back, I think it was 2007, both Glynn and myself were very passionate about fitness. So it all came from being passionate about health and fitness and well-being and basically trying to do something different. Because kind of to paint the scene like there was nothing like ABC back then. As simple as it seems as an outdoor fitness initiative and, you know, and training provider, no one was doing it. It wasn't a thing.

You had BMF in or British military fitness in in London that were that were doing their thing, and they were quite well known. But there was no one, you know, in our part of the world doing anything, anything like that. And it was almost kind of like people would literally laugh and be like, it's outside. And it's like, yeah, it was quite a hard sell. What do you do when it rains?

It's like we crack on. And changing that paradigm was a big deal. It was it was quite The first couple of years, it was quite tough. But going back to your question, I think, we were both very passionate about fitness. Glynn and I both went to went to school together.

So we've known each other for a long time. We're both very sporty. And it was actually a, a mutual friend. We lost a friend in his in our early twenties. Glimmers in the Marines.

I was come out of university in the in the fitness industry. And, at this funeral, we mentioned doing something together, which is quite strange in itself. He said, look, I'm in the Marines. Something had happened where he wasn't granted he actually wasn't granted leave to go to this funeral, which really upset him. And he was like, I'm thinking about coming out.

And that was the seed was kind of planted then to get to do something. And then probably about a year later, an op an opportunity popped up, and we started we started running sessions in Essex. And originally, it was just Chelmsford, Braintree, and Brentwood, and it kinda went from there. Did you have, like so you were at uni. Did you then go into employment first?

Like Yeah. You so you have had, like Yeah. A corporate role. So you know Yes. I exactly.

That's why I was in I was in a, a big commercial gym, and I worked out very quickly. There are a couple of bits actually as part of that journey that always spring into my mind. So I worked out very quickly that wasn't for me because I didn't I didn't like the model because I thought it failed a lot of people. So to give you an idea, the club I was at the time, I think it had a membership base of about three and a half to 4,000 people. Wow.

Big club. Huge. And there were two things that happened there that put question marks in my in my head pretty quickly within the first sort of year. Number one was we've got four and a half sorry. 4,000 members, three and a half thousand members.

We've got 20 treadmills. And in my head, I'm like, well, how's everybody training? We want everybody to train, don't we? I remember being in a morning huddle, and the gym at the time was like, you know, hitting these numbers and doing his job effectively. But the model was, in a nutshell, which I've got from this conversation, that obviously we don't want all the members there, do we?

We don't want all the members training, and that did not sit very well with me. I wanted to do something where I've got people results, and I've got them training. That's why I got into this, to get people to where they want to be and help people. And when I kind of got a got a chink that that wasn't the game, it didn't sit very well with me at all. And that then you then you start thinking, is there a better way?

Is there another way of doing this? Can we get, you know, passion wise, can you get can you get people in a different way? Can we can we change what's going on? And that's where it started, I think. I love that because actually with Essex Boot Camp, and I know about Essex Boot Camp, because of course I'm a I'm a member, is that you don't necessarily have that limit then.

And you want everyone, as many people that have signed up to be joining those sessions at one time. Well, I meant we had initially, we had a, we had a spreadsheet, and this was really, really early on to basically to map attendance and footfall. And it was really, really simple to really be really basic, Excel spreadsheet, but it gave you an idea of what business we've done in the morning, in the afternoons, and in the evenings, so where we saw the majority of our clients. And more importantly to me, along each column, it was how many people you saw a day. So between me just me and Glynn at that time.

And you gotta remember that the model back then predominantly to to, you know, service twenty, thirty people, That was pretty maybe 40 people if you wanna work six days a week as a PT. Right? There was a limit to what you could earn. So that was the second thing. So there was this broken model, and then there was a limit.

There was a threshold to how many people you could support. And that was another thing. I was like, can we get this in a different way? And that going back to that spreadsheet, I started to see very quickly as part of what we were doing, we could support more people. Doing it this way, doing it in groups, you know, the USP for us at the time was it's out it's out it's outside, You know?

That was our thing. But we could we could support more people. You know? And over a period of time, it's a more you know, if we open up more sessions, we get more trainers involved, how many more people can we can we support? We're still trying to answer that question, by the way.

But that's the interesting part, right, of the point of, okay, do you wanna do it and have a business where it's just yourself or Glynn, or do you then want a business that you can then grow and scale? And I guess that is the question that you asked yourselves, and you've gotta make that first hire. Right? What was that like? Really, really, really tough.

Really, really tough. I mean, between the two of us, both Glynn and myself, we we've got we're very different in terms of we used to get called yin and yang, basically. And I won't it's pretty obvious he was here. Yeah. Right?

I still call you yin and yang. So, yeah. We used to get called yin and yang. And basically, like, I think what we did do really well we're both good at what we did. You know, that was by the way, we'd never have lasted any length of time if you weren't any good at what we did.

But I think we provided a really well rounded solution. And it was us just us doing the sessions back then. We did everything. And it's like we made a conscious decision early. Right?

You have a lot of people talking about, you know, their self brand and promoting themselves. And we were like we were like, well, we felt to make this work that we needed to we needed to sit behind a brand that we could, you know, bring put standards into operating procedures, teach people how to do things the way that we saw a session, and learn from our experience. You know, empower people with that, and then they could sit behind the brand as well. And it's sort of best practice. So we made a conscious decision quite early that that was what we were gonna do.

So Just on that though, is did you know all about that before? Because that's quite a lot to sort of think about. Right. Okay. If you've just never set up a business before to then go, right.

We need all our standing operating procedures. We need standards. We need all of this. Was that just something that I think I think you're looking back. You look back at your life, and, you know, there's a really, really good chat by Steve Jobs where he paints this picture of looking back at your life and joining the dots up.

There are jobs that I did where you take little bits from different jobs and different instances. And some of the some of the operating procedures, I'd kind of run a contract at a corporate gym for a while. And I kind of thought, oh, that was that was good. I quite like the way that that works. I'll just hit the mic, by the way.

So borrowed bits and pieces along the way. And then I hate to say it, I looked at a couple of franchise models, and the obviously, the biggest franchise in the world, probably, I don't know whether it still is today, but back then was McDonald's. So like, I'm thinking to myself, how do we get out there quickly? And what's the strategy we're gonna be behind? We've got a brand.

We made sure we had a we had a brand. We had quite a good name. We'd build it up between us over two or three years. If we can attract people like ourselves and give them a good enough opportunity to do this with us as opposed to doing it on their own, answer that question. My brand sit behind.

Oh, I said it's like a just we give you a vehicle to sit in. You've got to drive it, but we'll give you all the all the bits and pieces. Is that a good enough acquisition? Can we answer that question successfully? It was that that we were thinking to get ourselves out quickly.

And I think we did we did quite a good job of that. I think if we go back to I think we started up in about 2007. I think we managed to get out and have quite a good network of sessions quickly by when was the Olympics in London? Was it 2012? 2012.

Yeah. So in my in my head, I was like, we need to get out. I think we had a date in the diary, so we need to be out and have a network of sessions by it, and it was in line with the Olympics. You know, I don't know why that was, but I remember that being in my mind as a Manifested it. Yeah.

Yeah. But so it was by design. It wasn't there there's some organic growth there because, again, at that at that moment in time, time is huge. Right? The outdoor fitness thing was a hard sell at first going back to the start of the conversation, but it became a thing.

It became there's a big insurgency and all of a sudden getting outside. And there's also there's also some stats. It's quite sad, isn't it? When you start thinking about it, there's some stats that stay in your head. And I remember when I left university, there was a stat on the trajectory of people cut going from PE into, basically, I think it was exercising about three times a week.

You know what these stats are like? It was something like 2.7 times a week or something. And the stat back in early two thousands was less than 2% of the working populace was exercising three times a week. Wow. Less than 2%.

And that was one of the things in my head I'm like, surely there's gotta be something else. The gym model doesn't work for lots of people. No. So what can we do? What can we do to influence that?

And it's still even today, I think I haven't looked at it for a while, but I looked at something more recently. And I think the stat now is still under 20% or at least it was about ten years ago. It was something like 19.8% of the working population exercises three times three times, a week. So you've got 80 of the working population not exercising regularly. That's crazy.

So from a from an industry's perspective. We're still we're there's room for manoeuvre here. Yeah. That's not good enough, is it?

I don't think so anyway. No. It's opportunity. And the interesting bit for me is out of that 80%, I think, out of the people that were polled, I think it was 70% of those people, if they were gonna do something in terms of a fitness intervention or a health and fitness intervention, would like to be outside.

So, again, that they're the sort of things that stay in your mind. When you're like, what direction are we going in business wise? What are we gonna do? How are we tackling things? They're the things that are in the forefront of your mind, I think.

You come across as somebody that's kind of got it together in terms of your ideas. Right? But when you're going through all of that, like, you're going, right, okay. We're gonna take this franchise model. We've got, like we need to expand.

We've got this date in mind. What's going also through your head? Like Oh, god. This is like you're talking about someone that the creative process is messy. Right?

We've condensed that into, it's messy and it's not linear. So you post it notes. I'm a merchant for having an idea, sticking on a post it note that'll be kicking around on my desk for maybe two years. But, like, it's a graveyard of ideas, this this this post it notes. And, you know, would that work would that work in a different instance or a different time?

So, yeah, I mean, you know, from yourself, from some of the people you talk to, like, having an eyes idea is one thing. Making it fly and giving it legs is a completely different thing. And it might be a great idea. At the wrong time. You look at a great example I think is, COVID.

Imagine coming up with a in any other time, a fantastic idea that would have flown. COVID hits just squashes the whole thing. Yeah. And timing's huge. Right?

Timing's absolutely huge, especially in in in the creative process of business and being an entrepreneur, I guess, as well. Yeah. Definitely. But you're dead right. Sorry.

I've condensed that part of it. It sounds really clinical. It wasn't at all. It was messy.

We made loads of mistakes. You know that? But that you've gotta learn, haven't you? Yeah. You know?

When you were so you've got this idea. Let's say you're like, right. That idea's got legs. I'm gonna give it give it a go. What goes through your mind?

Do you, like, feeling quite comfortable, or is it we've taken because there's always risk involved. Right? Are you quite comfortable with that? Or what goes through your mind as you kind of go and execute one of your post it notes? So go you I always think to myself, like, when you get asked questions, like, good questions like that, you're like, you use yourself as a reference point later.

We had this idea that we thought was great, me and Glynn, and it was very much off of Glynn's background. But the amount of times in the first two years, and it would tell you the same. You're sitting there, get there at quarter six in the morning. It's still dark. You're sitting there.

You've got a session worked out. Ten two, five two, no one turns up. And it's like, it would have been so easy after two months when that wasn't you know, the fitness industry can be quite faddy. Like, it'd been so easy just to to walk away from it and say that this is not working, but we didn't. And I think the initial two and three years, no one sees that bit, the struggle The struggle to get it to get it going, to get it moving.

And then once you get it moving, the momentum to keep it going, no one sees that bit. And, you gotta have a little bit of faith, I think, in what you're doing and a bit of belief in what you're doing there. And for me, it was, I think, because you do question. That's part of the part of the process. Right?

Is it gonna get traction? Is it gonna work? Is it gonna start paying the bills? Because there's that obviously as well. It's a it's a must.

And I guess we had both had a bit of faith. But I'd say there's two things that that spring to mind. Glynn and myself are very different. I think we some someone quite smart said to me a while back that to run a business, you have you need to have people around the table that have got things that you haven't got. And that you trust.

And that's massive. And I think even earlier on, me and Glynn are quite different. And we probably we probably filled a lot of spaces, you know, and complemented each other quite well. And I think that that got us down the road a bit. And then going back to the passion about what we were doing and belief in what we were doing.

You raised a really good point there, and I guess a lot of people listening can resonate with that. And that's the bit that's not shared. So you've got, like, all people attending Essex boot camp thinking, yeah, the numbers are here, and you've got everybody, that sea of red, all in their shirts and that. Oh, yes. Hard thought.

But that moment, the first two years that keeps you going is that tough bit, right, that nobody sees? No. No. No. Especially today as well with social media.

Excuse me. Everything looks instantaneous, doesn't it, and self gratifying. Business is just not like business is not like that. And I think everything anything worth happy having isn't like that.

Training in particular, you know, everybody wants a quick fix. You know, everybody wants the quick there is no quick fix. You've gotta be consistent. You gotta work hard. And, you know, you gotta have some discipline about you, ultimately.

And that's people don't wanna hear that. They wanna know what you did and how it worked overnight. It didn't it didn't work overnight. Yeah. You know?

And I and I think that's a bit of a bit of a tough one to swallow for people. But at the same time, I think that's what separates you. You know, it would have been very easy to walk away. Six months in, even a year in. I think, God's honest truth, I think me and Glim we've made eighteen months into the business.

I remember a conversation before Christmas one year and I was like, mate, we can we can take we can take some more money this month. And it was like something like £600 a month. Like and we were working all the hours under the sun to get it going and to get it off the floor. And I think in whatever you do, business wise, there's unless, you know, you're quite lucky and you hit something at the right time. But I think there's that that that bit where you've gotta give a lot and not get a lot back.

Sacrifice, really, isn't it? Yep. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely.

And, you know, you talk about that kind of, or this is one of the reasons for this podcast, is because you've got, especially with social media, all these shiny success stories. Like, it is overnight, and they don't see the actual pain that comes from running a business. Right? The grind. Yeah.

The grind. There's definite grind, I think. You know? And how do you kind of manage that? Right?

Because you're gonna have those days where, and I know you've got Glynn, you kinda got that you balance each other out. But how do you manage that from a mental perspective? God, that's a really tough question. It's a good question, but it's a tough question. So a few years back before COVID, it's another guy from school actually, someone I've known for a long time and Glynn's known for a long time.

Sean Curran got involved on the finance side of things. So I'd always kinda looked after as best I could. He got involved in the business, as a director, and he's really good commercially as well. And that really, really took a bit of a weight off from that side of things that you've got. Also, another set of opinions that's been there and done it.

You know, you it's safe it's a safe pair of hands. Another opinion that's valid. He's done some stuff in business to give him some credence about, you know, making decisions, and that helps as part of the decision making relationship where we can have event at each other. You know? Like and that's part of our dynamic, and it works for us.

But, almost feel like Sean sometimes is like the referee. He's got calming. Do you know what I mean? He, like, he's got he's got, like, another input, and it's a it's a good it's a good input. It's a it's a positive input.

So that's huge on a, I guess, like a team kind of aspect. And then personally, I think you've got to have some things to take you out of work. I'm thinking about work all the time because as I'm sure you can you can attribute as well, like, I feel envious sometimes of people that work at nine two five because it's always sitting on your shoulder. There's always something going on.

And I think I'll work that out quite late. I think you I have an issue, I think, with, I have a personal connection, an emotional connection to the business because it was mine and I started it with someone else. That's not good. It's not healthy sometimes. It's hard to detach.

And think of it as a as a business. There was actually I think it was about two years ago, someone said something to you. And when you know when something says something and it's something to you and it's really poignant, a guy that I've been training for a bit is a really nice guy. He's very switched on as well. A career player, but a really, really nice guy.

He kind of moved into the area, and he he'd been to sessions. And he was kind of looking at things from like a with no connection, a bit of a blank connection. He went to me, you know, I think that EBC will be like, when you're not in it anymore, I think it'll still go and it'll still do other things. And I was like, sorry? Because I've never I've never computed.

I've never considered it being a thing without me in it. Yeah. And it didn't sit very well. Being honest, it didn't sit very well. I felt like I'd been dunked underwater for about a couple of days.

Because I because I identify, I guess, with some of myself as the business. Yep. Which I know is not a good thing. So I've had to work a little bit on maybe doing something with that and trying to detach a little bit.

But I think, ironically, training helps, you know, as a bit of a mental wash down and as a release. I do feel a little bit obliged though to train as because it's like there's no way on earth there's a connection about this. Right? Right? Right?

I wouldn't be able to stand at the front of a group of people, ask them to do all in a sundry, and not be able to do it to a level myself. I'd feel like an absolute charlatan. I can't I couldn't do it. And I don't know why that is either. I just think it's probably a bit of a and it's different for different people.

It's an integrity thing for me. A %. Yeah. I'm not saying I'd be the fastest or the quickest or whatever, but I need to be able to do it to a level.

And I know Glynn is the same with that. You know, there's a that's something we've been we tried to install just a separate thing values wise in the guys as well by then, you know, making sure we had a fitness test and all that sort of thing. But, yeah, that that's big. And then I think what I've realized over the last few years is I need something to completely disassociate. So I try and play a bit of golf.

And if I'm not very good. But if I'm if I play golf, sometimes I play with my son or whatever, try not to look at my phone and just have some downtime. But it's tough. You have to work at that. Do you ever fully switch off?

I'd like to say yes, but no. I don't think so. There's always I think it's really tough to describe it to someone else. That maybe hasn't run a business or created a business that ultimately you care about and you're passionate about. So you never really it's always that little gremlin on your shoulder, isn't it?

I was at an assembly recently. You know when you someone says something, you're like, oh, I absolutely love that. I'd love to try and be like that. And the analogy was, it was like my little boy's school assembly that, the head teacher was talking about dealing with stress.

And she'd I can't remember how she'd come across a story, but she was talking about this particular guy that when he goes home at night, he tries not to take any of his stress from the working day into his house. And there's a plant outside his house, and he tries to hang all the stress, all the anxiety of the day, all the pressure of the day on this plant by touching the plant. Then he walks into the house, and I was like, I love that. But I think my tree or plant would be dead within a month. To say that.

Oh my goodness. I love it. As an analogy shrivelled up. As an analogy, I really, really liked it, but that's a really, really tough thing to do.

And you'll be able to Yeah. Attribute it right. That's a really hard thing and something that I really struggle with. Yeah. Really, really struggle with.

Well, the interesting part there is, like you say, almost the part that enables you to switch off is almost what you're doing Yeah. For others. So Yeah. Yeah. There's a complete overlap there in itself.

Someone described it to me a few years ago as a busman's holiday, and I was like, that's excellent. Because it's like, at the end of the day, there's a direct link back into. Why we do what we do. You know what I mean? So Yeah.

Yeah. And that was one of the things that I've always trained. You know? We were talking on the way up. I've always trained as part of who I am.

And I'm appreciating as I get older, I'm needing to change that slightly. But hopefully, it'll be something that I always do. Yeah. But it's hard that that part of it and that part of running a business, no matter how large or small, is really, really tough. And I think unless you've done it yourself, you can't really get a feel for what that's like.

Yeah. 100%. And so, I mean, that's a challenge in itself, but I'm keen to go into more of the challenges that you've come like, you've gone through. And I'm guessing you mentioned COVID earlier on. Oh, gotcha.

So I guess that impacted yourselves to quite a Yes. Huge. Yeah. So you're then in a situation, aren't you, where it's like, how do you stay relevant?

We're an outdoor we're an outdoor group fitness intervention. Yes. We can go outdoors, but we can't do anything in a group. And we're probably in a better situation than, than gyms because they just got completely shut down. But because of the niche we sat in, we got no support whatsoever from, you know, from a financial perspective from the government and the bits and pieces that were put in place and mechanisms that were put in place.

We didn't configure into any of that, which is through, you know, fair enough. It kind of is what it is, but there wasn't much out there for us. So it's then like, how do we stay relevant? And not only how do we stay relevant, how do we stay relevant really quick. To make sure that, you know, we can survive?

So there were a couple of really sleepless nights dialling back to that. I remember the conversations and, like and ultimately, it's a at the time, you know, we're in Cambridge. We're quite a few locations running. All the guys that run the franchises are all looking at you to say, what we're gonna do? And we had some strong suits in there.

There were some good guys in the business coming up with ideas, but at the end of the day, it falls on Glynn, myself, and Sean, and obviously Wez was quite was quite pivotal as well in it back then. Actually, there's a little story on that where Wez

 claimed, I think, some of the, the strategy to get us out with an app. It added that it was his idea, but it definitely wasn't. I'll pull him on that one. I see him as well, so I just hit my head.

But so it was going back to your question, it was a tough couple of there was a couple of nights where we had a conversation. Fortunately, we just started using a CRM system, right, to basically collate people's data. And we were linking a payment gateway to that, and it was all really well protected. I had a firewall against it. It was secure and all the rest of it.

And there was an option that Sean had found to extend that as an app, which is what we currently use. And there are some facility within that app to program for people. So I was playing around with the idea of putting programs in and how would we how would we program then. It was like, well, these waypoint workouts. So staying within the confines of of what we were allowed to do so people could meet in twos.

We could organize the meeting in twos and, you know, and then give people a workout via the app, try and keep it in keeping with what we are as a business. And these Waypoint workouts were born pretty quickly. We tried to put some procedure around that and then roll them out. We managed to do that quite quickly. I think if someone had said to me, you know, in terms of attrition on your membership, this is what it's gonna be, I'll have literally been your hand off, I think, because I think we did quite well in the pivot.

And trying to keep people number one active. But it wasn't just that. It was the community. And, you know, the amount of people that were like, I'm so looking forward to coming out and seeing someone else, you know. So getting the workouts done, that was that that that took a long time to kind of, over that period of two days, like, come up with an idea and then try and execute.

But I think we did pretty much with what we had. We did it as best we could, definitely. But it's that there's a big part of kind of being creative and then being agile and trying to sort of like, what can we do? Instead of just a couple of the guys in the team were like, are we gonna have to just cancel everybody's membership? I'm like, well, no.

Like, that's not the way to look at this. We've got to try and be a bit pragmatic and come up with something. Yeah. And try and support. Yeah.

Because the guy there was a willingness from guys to you know, members to come on one and train still. But he's trying to do something that that fitted, you know, and that and that, ticked the boxes as to what we were. And I think we like I said, I'm quite pleased, quite proud of what we did, to be fair. Yeah.

I mean and that that there's lots of pressure in different ways. Right? You're saying, like, you got the where you become that responsible one for everyone, like, for all the franchisees, the owners, and all the different sites. But then you've got that responsibility where you've got that responsibility where you gotta make a quick decision. Yeah.

It's no longer sort of looking at your post its for two years. It's like No. You've gotta go with it and pick the right thing and run. We were fortunate that we had a an option on an app.

I think to so we were fortunate from that point of view. And again, a little bit we got a little bit lucky with the timing. You know, there was there was functionality that we weren't using that we started to dip into and use. So I you know, in terms of a in terms of a workout, I think it worked really well. And so, like, for what it was at that particular moment in time, I think it works it works well.

But, yeah, it was a stressful those two days, I don't think I slept for a couple of nights just laying there, looking at the ceiling thinking what literally Yeah. Because you're in a position like it's when was it the first one? It's like upwards of fifteen years into a business, and it's like it could all go. Yeah. It could literally all go in in in days.

Yeah. You know? And that's, like, scary. It's a really scary thought process, like, and to be in it. And I know a lot of people had it.

Everybody had their struggles during lockdown. Right? But, you know, ultimately, building the business up from nothing and then staring down the barrel of losing it, you know, for things that are completely out of your control. That's it. Huge.

And that's where you said, you you've got an emotional attachment. Whether you should have an emotional attachment, you're going to. Right? You've built a business from scratch, and you've set you've had to make sacrifices to grow that business. So as you say, to lose all of that, whereas other people, that's the part that's not seen, because you how can it be seen if some somebody's not been in your shoes to know what that really feels like?

Yeah. It's really it's really you can't really, I don't think, kinda put it into words. It's, it is tough. Like, putting a bit putting any business up, I think, from a standing start is really, really tough.

And we were bootstrapped. Right? We got on this trip. I think me and Glynn put the dizzy heights of, like, £300 in each to start a business. Like, ridiculous.

Like, absolutely ridiculous to do that from a standing start. Yeah. And literally, we sort of you feel you're looking back, you look back at your younger self, and you just feel like you dragged it and kicked it into shape, really. Yeah. Yeah.

Crazy. Absolutely crazy. And then so I know you're not much of a social media person No. I'm not. Which I think is probably a good thing, in the sense of, like because where I'm gonna go sort of talk about is the noise that comes, right, from different people on social media.

And we mentioned about those overnight successes. But you've also got competitors or other businesses kind of, emerging. Right? How do you kind of keep focused on what you're doing when outdoor fitness all of a sudden becomes more known? So you're no longer the Essex Boot Camp, where you are Essex Boot Camp, but there's other competitors appearing.

How do you manage that and just not get distracted by what's going on around you? It's really it's really tough, I think. I think you have to just try and stay very much in your lane, and focus on it's so easy when you start looking at, you know, what's popular, competitors analysis, and all that sort of thing. But I think one of the most important things, and again, this is something, you know, you look at things, and things stay with you in in life. And I can't remember where it came from, but I remember I really liked an outlook.

I can't remember whose it was, but essentially, they were talking about the, you know, attracting people into work with you, and what you need, what mix you need, to have people in to work with you. And there were three things, autonomy, so that people, you know, they've got an idea of what they're doing and what they're about, what they're delivering, but they're left to their own devices to run their aspect. So you get people that are good enough. To work autonomously. The other one was mastery.

So you you're in something where you can get better at it. You know, there's definitely an element of mastery with instructing a group of people. You know, and, you know, there's so many instances where guys have come in. They've been good instructors, but over time, they become more honed to what they do, sharper at what they do. You know, that that happens.

You see that a lot over time from where they where they started at. And then having purpose. So anchored to a purpose. And the bit around purpose was key to the question because purpose is big. And I think we set our stall out to be an outdoor training provider.

If we start watering that down and coming inside and doing it changes the dynamic a little bit. We're always very, very conscious of that. So staying true to what we what we are. So we don't want to then kind of be contradictory and start mixing up. I think it blurs the lines a little bit.

So we've tried to stay very much, true to what we are purpose wise. And we've got a social media guy at the moment. He's really well thought out. Guy is successful in his own right in business. Just after Christmas, actually, we had a chat about the messaging and what we're what we're putting out on social media because there is so much noise.

Particularly in the fitness industry. And it's almost like I don't know. I feel like it get it's got into a bit of a state over the last ten years where it's almost like who whoever shouts the loudest about a great layer. It's like, I don't I don't wanna partake in any of that. Do you know what I mean?

I was always brought up to just kinda let your work talk for you. So it goes completely sitting in front of a camera telling everybody that I'm awesome just doesn't sit very well with me at all. I would very much prefer to go and talk to 10 people that we train on a regular basis. Let them tell you what we're all about.

Yep. That's the way values wise, I think. And I'm Glynn's a bit like that as well. And I think we never really subscribe to, you know, the personal brand bit. And I'm not saying that it doesn't fit for some other people.

It just didn't work for us. And going back to the original, you know, question about brand, we instead of putting our own names up there, we put a brand up. And we sat behind that brand, and we're invested in the brand. And I think that's an important for me, that's important.

It's twenty years important, really. So I think a lot hinges off the back of that. And then going back to the social media guy, he brought us our attention back to what are you? What is it you're trying to achieve?

And we start to look at core values. What is EBC from a from a from a from a core values perspective? And we've tried to start to, operate on social media out of that again. And not get diluted.

Yeah. So there is a thought process behind Yeah. You know, what we're doing, how we're trying to do things. And I think what you were saying to us and some of the feedback on the post was that there's so much noise on social media of people talking about, I don't know, whatever's popular. My I've got a 16 year old daughter, and she's I hope she doesn't watch this, by the way.

She will hate this, but this is payback, Ella, for some of the TikTok videos you've done, by the way. But she's going to the gym at the moment. And every time she goes to the gym, I'm like, oh, great. Like, what Yeah. What are you doing tonight?

She's always training glutes. Like she's always trained because everybody wants a round bum. Right? So I'm like, maybe we should mix it up a little bit. You know, do a bit of cardio.

I might get dead pants like, but. Obviously that's fashionable at the moment, isn't it? Everybody wants, you know, a bum. Right? Not to kind of like cast massive sweep sweeping general generalizations, but that seems to be the thing at the moment.

And I think there's a lot of that that goes on after you've been in anything for a long time. You see these kind of fads come in. You know? And we're trying to, I guess, not get drawn into that.

And try and we're trying to stick to our guns and what we are, which is a blend really of, you know, strength, body weight, and cardio activity, like, delivered really, really well outside. It's really simple. What we do is try and do it really well. But and you do it well. Like, it's interesting.

I mean, I go and do all sorts of races, and sometimes when I do that with my friends that I've made for Essex Boot Camp, we'll go and wear our Essex Boot Camp tops, and you end up bumping into people in all places, and you're like, oh, yeah. You're part of Essex Boot Camp. I have no idea who they are. Yeah. Because they're wearing an Essex Boot Camp Yeah.

Shirt, you're all of a sudden, like, I don't know. You're definitely not within Essex when you bump into them. And there's that kind of community as well that you've created, as well as a brand. We talk about this. 

I've actually spoken about this this morning. I think the we don't lean on the community side of things enough. And again, like, we've got a really, really strong community that we wanna try and bolster, but we don't I don't think we kind of, like, speak about that enough. I think that's something that we need to start to change because it is quite powerful.

And I think, like, for a range of reasons, we were we were talking on the way up, you know, you know, from the station about what keeps people at the coalface, what keeps people training, and community and having friends that train that you can lean on a little bit when you don't fancy it. And you're not feeling motivated which motivated which comes and goes. You've got that plug in which is huge, absolutely huge to keep you doing anything.

And I think the community side of it is a really, really big deal. And I think I think about this this sort of stuff quite a bit. I kind of link it back to the business was born out of, Glynn's background in the military. Right? And it was a fuse between what he was doing and me with sports science.

And I didn't really understand. I didn't see we're talking about having, you know, having an idea and it having legs, having the ability to maybe jump up and be and get traction in market. I've got to be honest. The first two years we were doing it, I'm not sure I saw the bigger picture. It wasn't when we until we went down to we were very lucky.

We got the opportunity to go down to the commando training centre at Lympstone for, a connection of Glynn's in the in the in the marines. And we took 30 people down there. And Glynn was like, come on, mate. You're gonna get involved in some of this. And I was like, it's like, really?

It's like, yeah. So I one of the best things I've ever done is absolutely, like, superb, like but one of the sessions we did was an empty school gymnasium. There were 30 of us, and probably two or three PTIs. And the atmosphere that was created by those trainers, I was like, this is different.

This is this is not only is it different, there's a there's a there's a dynamic here that works. Yeah. And if we could take some of that, dial it back a little bit, and make it a little bit more digestible for consumption in public use. There's something there.

Yeah. And the kind of penny dropped then for me that we could do something that was a little bit different. And again, it wasn't being wasn't being done. It was it's trying to answer a question, isn't it? Yeah.

Sometimes. I think a lot of when you sort of listen to podcasts and you talk to people that have started businesses, a lot of people are trying to answer questions maybe that are they feel unanswered. Yeah. And for me, I was like, this could be something a little bit different that's not being done. Not I'd seen anyway.

And it went from there. Yeah. And so how many sites have you got now? I think we're just under 20 now. Yep.

I think, you know, we'd post COVID. COVID was tough. Yeah. There was some, you know, like, we lost some we lost some members invariably. You know, people have bills to pay and all the rest of it.

And, you know, and I've and I think that we we've shot a few bits and pieces down the site's why it's just to try and consolidate. Yep. But as a whole, yeah, I think we're just under 20. I think at one point we were 26, maybe 27, and we had, a franchise over in Cambridge as well which has gone recently. Like, it got it got sold recently.

So, I mean, I was at sessions last night, and I still enjoy cracking the whip at session. All this time later, I still enjoy doing it. And I'd actually say if I stopped doing it at any point in my life, I'd really miss it. I get something from it myself, I think. That's brilliant.

It's brilliant that you have the energy. You still have the energy for that. And do you ever have, though, a moment where you sort of if you go back to where you were fifteen years ago and you were starting it out, do you think that you sit back and think, yeah, this is this is great what we've what we've achieved? Or do you still sort of have to almost pinch yourself or question and not really see what you've achieved. I don't think don't know if that makes sense, but, you know I know what you're saying.

Yeah. I think, we've I don't think we're great at looking back and patting we're not very good at patting ourselves on the back. We just try and crack on, I think. Yeah.

As best we as best we can, and try and maintain I think growing something's one thing. Yeah. Right? And getting out there and yeah. That was the game plan.

And when you've done it, you then go maintain it, which is a completely different Yep. Ballgame and manage it Yep. Which comes with its own challenges. So there's there are two I think there are the growth bit was really exciting and the creative bit. And I really like that bit.

Yep. Even the bit during COVID, it's like the creative bit of what you you've gotta try and get yourself over there. Yep. And I think people with a creative mind are like, I'm gonna get over there. Yep.

No matter if I go underneath it, over the top of it %. I'm going to get there. Yeah. And I think you've got a what I've learned in in some of my time in business is that not everybody thinks like that. No.

And I think you've got to have some of that to get yourself to where you need to be. Yep. That's vital. But I think yeah. I think the first bit of getting out there is tough, but then also you've then got to manage.

Maybe looking a little bit of hindsight, I think I like the creative bit more than the date some of the day to day management, being honest. And with that, we've is there any been any point where you're just like, I haven't got what it takes to get us to that next level? Like, you mentioned about you kind of love the start up bit, right, because that's when your creative juices are flowing compared to momentum. But have you ever had to have you ever questioned yourself and your abilities? I don't think I don't think there's many people doing again, I think it's part of part of the process of putting a business up and then creating stuff within a business if you're trying to do diversify slightly.

Again, not coming come not coming away from your purpose, I think that's really important. I'm not becoming too, you know, detached from your purpose. But I think you you've got to have a little bit of diversity to one of this. There's a nigger in me angling at the minute about evolving the business, but making sure we're doing it properly.

Yeah. So we've got and we've had some ideas for quite a quite a long period of time, to try and evolve the business and push it forward. So slightly tweaking the offerings, so we're offering more to the membership base, and parting with some of our, I guess, expertise on outdoor training in the last sort of twenty odd years between us. But we argue about what that looks like, which is but that's in the say in the nicest possible way, we would again, we're talking about this recently. Sort of a bit of a bit of a chat sort of in into the new year.

And it's like so my version as an example, my version of a boot camp early on was far and away compared to what Glynn's version of a boot camp was. Right? And his version was a lot more accurate. I was very clinical when we first started and trying to be a bit too kind of fitness y Yeah. Where he was like, no.

No. We need to like and somewhere in the middle is where the magic happens. Right? It's he leaning more into the way he wanted to do things, the rustic sort of boot camps. But when we do things, I think it's that mix of our ideas now.

You know, the way that we look at things that that's important. Yeah. So at the moment, we're looking at different workouts with maybe, like, a strength based session, and some hybrid stuff that's particularly popular at the minute, which does make me laugh because really, you know, we've been running the business for nearly twenty years that's a blend of running strength and body weight. %. You know?

It's not common now. Like, we've been doing this a long time, and it's like I'm absolutely buzzing that the fitness industry started to go that way. Yeah. We've always been like, you know, what should you be about? Like, we've always been about being able to run an off decent sort of three to five k.

Yep. And being able to push pull and push your own body weight effectively, which again, it goes back to base training in the military, Glynn's background. Yeah. It makes loads of sense, right, that you're then operationally fit or whatever. Yeah.

All the other stuff will start to look after. If you can do those things, all the other stuff starts to look after itself. Yeah. %. Versus, you know, if you go back ten years ago, there was a massive dial into, you know, bodybuilding where aesthetics was the focus.

Yep. And your health and well-being was kinda down there somewhere. Yeah. You know, absolute non contender. So dialling back to an element where, you know, health and fitness and well-being's a more of a consideration that's much more in line with what we are Yeah.

And what and the message that we've always given. Yeah. We've been quite steadfast, to be fair, in our in our whole time doing this. Yeah. But, there's definitely sorry.

I've gone off topic a little bit. But there's definitely a mix with me and Glynn where, it's his version of it, my version of it, and somewhere in the middle is where the creative bit and that that that bit's, the magic happens, I think. Yeah. I was gonna say where the magic happens. And the great thing.

And just as being a single business owner of not having that person to Massive. To bat things with that you have, with Glynn, whether it's a rant or Oh, yeah. An argument or a what. It's like Listen. If you the amount of times, I dread to think if you got a stat where me and Glynn over the last twenty years have ranted to each other on the phone in hours, it would be frightening.

But somewhere in there, it's really important. Yeah. Because no one feels the same way about it. No one's got that that, emotional connection to it.

It's in some ways, it feels like an extension of yourself, which I know is not a good thing. Yeah. And I'm gonna have to, I have tried to work on that a little bit, and I'm gonna have to work on that some more because I know it's not healthy. Wean yourself up. Yeah.

Yeah. It's not it's not you know? Yeah. It's not it's not a good thing, but I guess it's part of being passionate about what you do. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And, usually, as we come we come to time, usually ask one last question, and my question would be, what would you if you were to do this all over again, or you were chatting to your younger self, not saying that you're old or anything, but There's a I feel like there's a dig in there somewhere, to be honest. We're the same age, so I can't comment.

What would that advice be? God, that's a really tough one, isn't it? That's a really tough one. It's a good question as well. You've asked me some good questions.

Got me thinking. I I think in when you're asking something, I always use myself as a reference point. And there are things that your parents say to you if you're lucky and you had, you know, good mum and dad. There are things that your parents say to you that ring in your ears. And my dad always used to say to me, whatever you end up doing in life, make sure you enjoy it.

Make sure you enjoy it and you like what you do because you're not doing it for a long time. And that always sat with me. And I think I think, yeah, I think it would be along those lines, but also having some belief in to kind of believe in what you're doing. Now if you're passionate about something and you, you know, you've got some belief in in what it is you're offering, whether it's like a service based, industry or whatever it is you're doing.

I think having self belief in what you do is huge. Because I think if you if you take that into a sporting arena. You know, like someone that someone that performs sport wise, it's night and day between someone that believes in themselves and someone that doesn't. That can be the difference between success and failure. Completely.

And I think in business, it's the same rule of fun that's true. I think you need to have some belief in in what you're doing to carry yourself through because you haven't got that. I'm not so sure that you're gonna have what it takes to fulfil anything. Yeah. And I think that's really cliché, isn't it?

Saying sort of believing yourself to your younger self, but it's massive. It's huge. And wise words from your dad for definitely. It was actually as I've got older, the older I get, the more he makes sense. But the, the negative side of it is you're at those cringeworthy moments when you're having to go at one of your kids and you're like, oh my god.

My dad used to say to me. Yeah. Yeah. So it comes it comes the good advice comes with, comes with a bit of a, I guess, a little bit of a dark side to it as well along that. I think when you sort of see yourself sort of doing things that your parents used to do or say stuff that your parents used to do, but I think that's part and parcel, isn't it?

Yeah. Exactly. But yeah. It's I mean, it's not for anything in business as I'm sure, you know, you can attribute as well. It's not for the faint hearted, I think.

Hundred percent. And sometimes people, me included actually, went into business blind and naïve. But willing nevertheless. So I think some do you know what? On that point as well, just to round it up, I guess, like, the naivety side of it and going into if I knew what I was getting myself into, I'm not sure.

Because it's hard. It's really hard, but sometimes the naivety and the passion carries you through. %. And I think that's, you know, that's a big deal as well.

Yeah. Definitely. Well, congratulations. Because I think, you know, as being a member of Essex Boot Camp, it's helped me in many different ways. It's helped me make friends in an area that I'm not from.

It's helped me from a fitness level. It's helped me mentally in everything. So you're definitely living up to your purpose and value. So thank you. When oh, no.

Listen. I think it's this is still all this time later, it's still nice to hear that. To this day. Right? Because when you when you're all said all said and done with whatever it is you do in your life, it's like, how many people do I have an impact against.

In in a positive way, obviously. How many people did we help? And really, that that's huge, isn't it? Yeah. And for us, that was always like a going back to the original question, that was always a massive part of what we were trying to achieve.

Yeah. So that's like music's my ears and probably a really fitting way to round it up. But listen, thanks very much for having me in. I've really enjoyed it. I've had to think about not doing press ups and kettlebell swings and running in in a different way.

So thanks for having me in and doing something a little bit different. And thank you for having well, thank you for coming on the show, and thank you everybody for listening today. I'm sure with all these questions, I'm now gonna get in trouble with, loads of push ups and sit ups and everything from you. But, we'll, we'll wait and see. So thank you, everyone.