Thriving to Starting Over: Mike Linger on 25 Years of Business, Resilience & Mental Health

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod interviews entrepreneur Mike Linger, founder of Winger Sports Academy, Dodgeball London, and Essex Games, about his 25-year journey in the sports and fitness business.

Mike opens up about the realities of running multiple businesses, the challenges of staying resilient during setbacks, and how he manages the emotional and mental toll of business ownership—especially through COVID and beyond.

🎧 Topics covered:

➡️ Starting a business from scratch with no money
➡️ How working for Jamie Oliver sparked his passion for entrepreneurship
➡️ Managing mental health as a founder
➡️ Rebuilding after COVID shut down his businesses
➡️ Redefining success beyond just money
➡️ The mindset, routines, and self-belief that keep him going

If you're a small business owner, a fitness entrepreneur, or someone navigating the ups and downs of building a business, this episode is packed with insight, honesty, and inspiration.

🔔 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business!

For more details on Mike's businesses:
https://www.wingersportsacademy.com/
https://dodgeball-london.com
https://essexgames.com/

#EntrepreneurJourney #FitnessBusiness #SmallBusinessUK #MentalHealthForEntrepreneurs #YourMindYourBusinessPodcast #BusinessOwners #Entrepreneurship

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Transcript

Welcome to Your Mind Your Business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Carina McLeod, entrepreneur and fitness fanatic. And today, we have a special guest, Mike Linger from Essex Games and Winger Sports Academy.

Yes. Welcome, Mike. Thanks for having me. So I'm glad that you've joined us today. Your first podcast, you can tick it off your bucket list.

It was on my bucket list. So yeah. Which is fantastic. And one thing that I like to start off with when I do a podcast is to be able to give the audience an opportunity to get to know who you are today. Yep.

And then I hit rewind and go to the start of your journey and really dive into the real true get deep in terms of the real true grit of being an entrepreneur. So I'll let you, share with the audience a bit more about yourself. Yeah. So at present, I have a few businesses. My main business is Winger Sports Academy, which is sports coaching in schools.

So PE lessons, after school curriculum. So we do that round in Chelmsford, Billericay, and Brentwood in Essex. So that's been going for twenty five years. So that's the main bread and butter. I have a, sports events company called Dodgeball London, which is Dodgeball in London.

So for corporate events, stag dos and hen dos. So that's kind of linked to Wingers Sports Academy. So kind of they're kind of two companies together. And then I've got Essex Games, which you know about, which is functional fitness competitions. So where you kind of go through pain for about sixty to seventy to eighty minutes of different activities.

Very light, similar to people that know about High Rocks and Turf Games and FX, which has been running for about two years. I do that with, my business partner Sam Raven, which is, going well. So I'm juggling all these businesses at once. Yeah. And it's, interesting.

That's for sure. I can imagine. But firstly, congratulations. To have a to have your own business going for twenty five years is fantastic because a lot of people don't reach that three year, five year point. So twenty five years, I'm sure you have lots to, share about those twenty five years.

Yes. So let's hit rewind because I'm keen to understand what even got you into starting up your first business and whether that was the first thing that you did or you had a job or a more corporate role before that. Yeah. So when I, from school time, didn't learn a thing. I kind of love sport.

Sport was my thing. Football was a big part of my life, and running, actually. I kind of end up going to boarding school because it was a half sporty school and because my parents can't deal with me at the time, which was good because then I behaved, and then I had sport in the afternoon. And, I'll be honest, I hated it. It was in Gloucestershire.

I'm an Essex boy. Miles away, and the only way I could get out was join the cross country team. So I ended up, joining the cross country team. I've got quite good at it. I ended up running for the southwest of England cross country.

Went through there, and I ended up going to South End College, doing sports as I did. Then I ended up going to university doing sport. From there, I got into football qualification, and I was a football coach for Chelsea, down in Richmond area. I loved it, and, you know, I kind of I've never made it as a footballer, so the next best thing was being a football coach. And that was kind of where I wanted to go.

But unfortunately, the money wasn't great. It was a time where if professionals got injured and had to retire, they would take your place really. So you couldn't really move up the ladder as well as you possibly can now. So I come away from that, kind of lost around in my twenties. Actually, got a job in, with a Internet company, selling Internet space at the time.

Did that for a couple of years. Didn't know really where I was going, what I was gonna do. I was kind of 22 around about that time. And then I worked for a celebrity, as a right hand man, really. You're now looking at me wanting to know Yeah.

I'm just smiling. Yep. Okay. So I worked for this celebrity. It was actually Jamie Oliver.

Oh, okay. So, worked with him for seven years. I wasn't a chef. I wasn't interested in food. I was more interested in the party side of things, which was brilliant for me.

He was a great guy. He then the way he was passionate, and the way he set up businesses himself, kind of rubbed onto me. I kind of although I went to university, I didn't really have many qualifications apart from sport. I didn't really learn enough. But learning from him, how to be an entrepreneur, how to deal with people, and he's very much a people's person, and kind of gave me the hunger to set my own business up.

So, I was there for about seven years. It was time for me to leave because I couldn't really progress as myself. I had a good seven years partying, because he didn't really go out partying as much. So I kind of did that for him. And I really, it was a great time.

So but it was time for me to leave. And at the time, I thought, right, I'm gonna set up a sports coaching company. I got all the qualifications. I did work for Chelsea, Arsenal, and QPR. So I kind of thought, right, let's do this.

So as most people, especially young people think, easy, I'm gonna set up a business. I'm gonna have the best time of my life, and this is how it's gonna roll when I'm gonna retire at, you know, at 40. Unfortunately, it's not like that at all. It I, at the time, split up with my partner. We had a nine month year old child as well.

I set this business up. I was living on $6 a year in my car, going around to school, trying to get work. Turned away. Turned away. Could not get into schools.

It was hard grafting. What am I doing? But I believed in myself. I believed what I wanted to do. I knew I was good at what I could do.

I knew I was good with people. I knew I could coach, so I kept grafting. It took probably I didn't live in my car for four years, but I it took me a good four years to get into schools. I got into one, did a really good job, and then teachers and, parents talk, you know, especially in an area. And then I started getting more work come in.

And I built the business up, and then from there, from 2007 to 2012, things grew quite quickly. More schools going, can you come in and do this work for us? And before I knew it, I was starting to build a team, which is good. I was getting coaches come, you know, working for me. And it and it was growing and growing, and that's when I then decided well, I was in schools, and we're doing lots of dodgeball.

Kids just love playing dodgeball, throwing balls at each other. As a coach, you could throw balls at children, get away with it. But everyone loved it. It was enjoyable. And then we'd I started, well, hang on.

Adults are big children. So I started to set up Dodgeball London. I found a venue in Canary Wharf. It had a bar. Perfect.

And, we started running corporate events, stag dos and hen dos, advertising the websites, and that that went through the roof. We kind of built that. People were booking on corporate events, booking on where they'll play dodgeball from anything from 10 people to 300 people, coming to play dodgeball for a few hours. I'm a very good organizer. It's just been the way I am.

A bit OCD, so everything has to be perfect. So I found that quite easy. These little things that you don't really learn in school were kind of things I was good at because it just come naturally, and because I'm very much if I like something, I really work at it. And that really took off. And things were rosy.

Everything was going well, business, got married, children, and then COVID kicked in. Yep. But before COVID, I set up another business, cryotherapy business. So where Winger Sports Academy in Dodgeball London was going so well. It was building and building.

I even the business it was a time where we just had the London Olympics for that time. The government gave sport so much money. They threw money at sports. Personally, they didn't do it in the correct way, because they just gave money, and then when it run out, it was gone.

There was no stability of it. But there was so much to generate, and lots of people doing sport, and where I built a good business, a good reputation. Life was brilliant. You know? I had even had to get a PA because I had so much work.

You know? I was thinking, this is great. You know? Everything was good. I decided to set up a cryotherapy business in Brentwood, Genesys.

That was great. Things were going well with that. And like I said, then suddenly COVID hit, and everything went to pot. I can I can imagine? I can imagine.

And before we touch on COVID, I'm keen to go back a little bit and unpack some parts because your story is fascinating, you know. I've just learned so much more about you because I didn't know that because we've done races together, and we're kind of like it's very, like, short and sweet, our conversations. But it's fascinating the fact that you've got this passion, right, which is sport. So you always know. That's kind of, I guess, the fuel, the fire in your belly.

And then all of a sudden you're working along someone, Jamie Oliver in this case, who's just inspired you. Did you ever think before working with Jamie when you kinda, you know, you come out of uni, you're not really sure what you wanna do, that you were gonna be an entrepreneur? Or was it really not until you started getting that kind of influence from Jamie. Yeah. I don't I think at the time when I finished uni, I thought I was just gonna go into coaching, for a club.

I already done a few a bit of work with Chelsea. I was doing well there. And, again, I was quite good at it. And I thought I was gonna just work up the ladder, and I was happy to do that. It didn't work out.

And then obviously going to work for Jamie, and just being around him, I was literally with him probably twelve, thirteen hours a day, you know, from half six in the morning. We were, you know, all day, and just watching, he just rubbed off on me. You know, obviously, I wasn't that interested in the cooking side of things, but the way he was, and he set up businesses himself, and he put trust into me. He knew I wasn't qualified in over, but he believed in me, and that helped me massively. And just being around him, I think he's only I think he's about two years older than me.

I thought, wow, this is the kind of way I wanna go, you know? I wanna do this. I'm a risk taker. I've always had, even from little. I'm a risk taker.

And I think we if you do set your own business up, you've got to take risks. In a big saying, I said, no risks, no story. You can't you can't just sit there and kind of, oh, I don't know, you've got to take a risk. They don't always work out, but if they don't work out, you learn from it. And then what you learn, you try and put into place for the next one.

So I think, because I used I I'm always a risk taker. I've always I'm always been in ideas, even when I was younger, making games up in the playground, things. I'm always an ideas guy. I think and then being around someone like Jamie just kind of projected me to think, right, I wanna do my own business. Because he sometimes used to get me to, like, he got into properties, like, can you make sure that this room's set up how I would want it, or this this room, and that my kind of taste of things?

Because I was with him so much, his kind of style was a little bit different to me, but I knew what he liked. So I was kinda going in there doing those things, and it's kinda you end up kind of in yourself kind of this is kind of my business, but it's not my business because I'm going in there going, right, what we need, these kind of lampshades, this colour wall to go with this. And that kind of rubbed off, and I thought, well, I wanna kind of go off and set something up which is my passion, not someone else's passion. I love that.

And I love the fact of what you said about he kind of he believes in you. Because you then go on to set your own business up, no money, like, living in your car for a bit. Then but you said something really interesting is that you kind of always at the back of your mind believed in yourself.

Because that's something that a lot of people will struggle with, right? Is it's that kind of the persistence, the knockbacks, the no's. I mean, so you're going for it for a few years and you're thinking, right, okay, I believe in myself, I believe in myself, right, I'm gonna go for it. Were there any moments where you were like, seriously, what am I doing? Like that self doubt creeping in.

Yeah. I had massive self doubt anyway. But like I said, I talked to myself. It's as mad as it sounds. I talked to myself quite a bit, to that, you know, you can do this and believe in yourself.

It's not easy at all. There'd be times where I go to a school, and you never get past the office lady. Suddenly the office lady's, as nice as they are, just in case they're listening, they're lovely ladies. But they it's hard to get past them, you know, and you go in and go, can I come in and run a sports coaching company? Can I put some free sessions on?

Some schools are good to let you. Some are no. And it was in it was just hard, and you gotta keep knocking on those doors, knocking on those doors. It I think also at that time, I had no option. You know?

And I said I was on little money at the time. I was in my car. Nine month year old. It's just split up with my partner at a time. It's like, I've gotta do something.

You know? In those days where you're thinking, I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Just try one more time. Another saying, hey, just keep trying one more time, one more time.

And I kept being persistent, you know. I'm driven, you know, and I I'm very focused, you know. I want something, I'll go for it. And that was always, come on, you can do this. Something's gonna happen.

And luckily, it did. You know, I've got one school, and the head there is amazing, and she was well connected in other areas. And because I was in there with her, other schools started taking note. Okay. And for a new year, you know, Essex County Council, they started using me at things because one per school used me, which was highly regarded, then the others wanna use you.

And that's how it kinda went, so it's just suddenly the doors opened. But it was a good four years. It was it was tough. It was really hard, you know? And I said, you just gotta keep believing in yourself.

I think also it was tricky sometimes. I don't know now, but I used to drink a lot as well. So that kinda used to at the time, I used to take my worries away from drink and drink. But then it kind of that could that's when your negative would kick in, thinking, why am I doing this? But luckily, I was at a young age young age and quite hungry, and I had a a young son that I wanted to kind of look after.

I needed to build a business. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. I can imagine.

And that's the thing that people don't see. Right? They'll be like, okay. You've got this successful business. You're in all these schools.

But people forget that part that you've got to go through. And that's the challenge. Right? Because you've got social media that make it are making it out like these shiny success stories that are overnight success and missing out a really huge part of what it really takes is that grit of you've been told no. No.

No. And then you get that one break through. Right? Yeah. And then it just builds into all of that.

So hats off to you for, like, being persistent. Right? As you say, just driven and going for it. So your business starts booming. How do you then stay grounded?

Right? Because, you know, when your business is booming, you can easily kind of go with that. Right? And then lose sort of, sight of where you started out and sometimes lose direction in where you're going? Yeah.

I think there's a few things. I think at a time, when you're younger as well, you're driven by money. I want you to do well. When I was here, I was working with Jamie at Dunwell.

I drove nice cars for him, and it's kind of what I wanted, but my own. So that I was quite driven by that side of things. I wanted to prove my teachers at a time when I was younger. They're a lot different now. Like, I used to be called super thick by my teachers, useless.

They used to use they were terrible. Obviously, it's not like that now. But so so in my head, I wanted to prove these people wrong. Now I can do this. So that kind of kept driven, and I wanted to succeed more and more and more, see how far I can push it.

And I ended up extending Dodgeball London to Dodgeball Bath, Dodgeball Manchester, Dodgeball Barcelona. So we had, you know, these set up, and kinda keep building, building. I just wanted to see how far I can go, really. And that's kind of that kind of drove me in the always in my head what people used to think. So that was kind of a it was horrible at the time, but at the same time, it's given me kind of take that, you know, I'm gonna do this.

Yeah. I guess you've switched that negative Yeah. Almost into a into a positive, but, you know, you've got to manage those voices, I guess, in, in trying to make sure that they don't get the better review in terms of where you're the direction you're heading. So you mentioned about COVID. Talk to me about what happened there.

Yeah. So kind of, as I said, we had the coaching business, dodgeball businesses. I think choir therapy business was set up in 2018. Everything was going well, and then kind of COVID kind of kicked in. Around that time, schools were closed.

So if the schools are not working, you're not getting any money. You know? So money was you know, the cryotherapy business had to close, and it kinda spiralled me, you know, kinda hit me. And I kinda I went into depression a bit. That was that was tough, because suddenly everything was going well, and then suddenly everything started going wrong.

I'm on the move all the time, you know. I go on holiday, I couldn't sit still. I'd be thinking work, work, work. If I'm not if I'm laying there, I'm not making work, I'm not making money. So that was hard.

COVID was hard where I was stuck in at home, as lovely as my house was, and being with family. That was really tough. I'm watching the work kind of just disappear under your under your, you know, under your nose. It was hard. To be honest, from then on, it's been an absolute hard graft.

Suddenly, you're up there high. Everything's going right, and then suddenly, it just kind of hit the floor. You know, the choir therapy business was okay. We've managed to open some of it up because it was on a medical, so we were allowed for well-being, because the cryotherapy helped with well-being, but it was only limited amount we could do there. We had a few problems with the business.

There was three of us in the business partnerships. Couple fell out, so that was tough as well. And then COVID went on for a few years. Schools were open a bit. They cut our work, so we had less work.

The dodgeball, everyone was the thing is with dodgeball London, people going into work, no one was going into London, so that complete stopped. We used to have about 50 events a year. Wow. Last year, we only had 16. So we just have not recovered at all.

So, yeah, that was really hard, and it hit me, you know, my mental health massively. I gave up drinking completely, because it just affected my well-being. And I went for a real bad patch for quite a while. It was really tough to get help as well. I found it really hard, speaking to the right people, getting the right medications.

As much as there seems to be a lot of help out there, I don't think there's enough of it out there. And I think where the build up for years of running a business and being hundred miles an hour every day through your sleep, first thing you wake up, work, work, work, work. On holiday, work, work, work. Especially with school stuff, if you're on holidays, there's less work because school's not open, you've got holiday camps or whatnot. It's not much, you know, there's no money coming in, and you've got coaches that need paying, and they're all over there who are self employed.

The good coaches won't hang around if they're not getting money, so you wanted to make money for them to keep them happy, to be good for the business. And that kinda everything just went downhill. It was tough. Getting through it, the other side, slowly, you go back to schools, and they were like, no. We're not doing sport now.

We're cutting it. Schools hadn't about got there with all their funds cut as well. So there was less sport going into schools, and we were getting less and less work. That completely I lost quite a lot of staff for it. Schools are kind of just kind of trying to do it in themselves, and it you know, from there, it's been tough, tough, cryotherapy business.

I stayed for another, I think, two years after COVID, and I started my part because I filled out my business partner at the time. And everything seemed going wrong. I talked to London, like I said, no one was working in London, so there was no events, stag dudes, hand dudes, people weren't really having them. And so that kind of completely dried up, and there's times where there was no money coming in. You know?

Yeah. And kind of from there, he's kind of trying to like, you're rebuilding. You're really you're at the top, you're at your peak, and suddenly you're all taken away, and you're back at the bottom again. You know? And you're kind of at, you know, about fifteen years older, and you're like, have you got the energy to go again?

You know? Yeah. Definitely. We when you were at your peak, did you ever think that peak was gonna ever did you ever think that it was your peak? Or did you sort of think, oh, this is this is where I'm just gonna roll in this in No.

I never thought it was my peak. I set a plan to go, to retire at 50, I'm now 48. It's not gonna happen. And I thought I'm gonna keep building as much as I can, and, you know, build the business. I wanted to take it, make it into a franchise.

I wanted same with cryotherapy, wanted to franchise that outside of franchising the businesses up, and grow and grow it, get to 50, sell a few of the businesses, and then maybe invest in something else. Yeah. And I said, that's that that was the plan, not to kind of stop. And the plan was get to 50 and be an investor.

But you have to change the sales now. So yeah. It's tough. Right? Because the part that not everyone sees is you've had to make sacrifices in order to get to where you were.

Right? Sacrifice your time, that start of the knockbacks. Right? The no's. So you're flying there, and then all of a sudden, of course, it's like everything that you've been working for, what, fifteen years just comes crashing down.

Right? Did you talk about your mental health side of things and going into depression? Was that something that you were able because you're openly talking about it now, but I'm guessing that wasn't the case to start with, like, of that awareness and being able to almost manage it. Yeah. I was in denial quite a long time.

I didn't really tell anyone about it. It got tough. Really tough. Dark days. Real dark days.

I hid a lot away from it. I then did open up to my wife about it, and she was brilliant. She helped me a lot. Yeah. It makes me emotional a bit.

Yeah. It was tough. It was hard. And then I did start speaking to people, because you never really wanted to tell people about it, speak about it. But, you know, I told my close friends, and I was shocked at how supportive and friendly.

And the more I spoke about it to people, the more I think other people might have gone through the same thing, but didn't speak about it. Because even now, I'll be in the gym, and people come up to me and go about my training. And I say, a lot of it, that's a lot I train now is because of my mental health. And I said, well, it stemmed for I had to for my mindset. And they're like, yeah, I struggle, you know.

And they don't really say it. They they're a bit shy saying it, But at the same time, they're like, really? Is that why you do it? Because that's how I feel. And I and you then come across so many people that are training because of their mindset, and they got into kind of a bad way of depression.

So, yeah. At first, I was a bit worried about it, but now I'm quite open about it. I want I want people to know. I wanna help people that go through it saying that you can get through it. I hate to think anyone's sitting there kind of being quiet about it and not doing anything about it.

Because as much sometimes you think people don't care, there's always people out there who do care, and it's not a nice place to be. Definitely not. And, you know, hats off to you for being able to be open about it and going through that journey because, as you say, there's always gonna be that denial piece. And it takes a lot of courage and guts to then just admit it, and then to share it.

But actually, the fact that you're sharing it, and for those that are listening today, I'm sure so many people can resonate because, as you say, you're talking with people at the gym, you're inspiring others, right, to just be open about it, to, you know, it is many emotions that people go through. But also, one of the reasons why I created this podcast was because people assume that business owners are sitting pretty, running a business, getting all this money coming in, and not actually understanding the real, the pain that can come with it, from, and the emotional and mental toll as well that comes. Yeah. And I think it also changes your mindset a lot of things. Like I said before, when I was younger, I was driven by the money.

I'm not driven by money now. I'm driven by happiness. I'm happy if I'm working, and work's going well. That's what I'm more interested. I'm not interested in money now, which was mad, because, like, you know, ten, fifteen years ago, it was completely the other way around.

And now, I know, I, you know, I had money. And did it make me really happy? No. You know, I think I'd rather be happy and have good people around me than miserable. And I think you've got to always look for your happiness now.

And happiness can be building a business, you know, it doesn't mean you can't have that kind of drive to do well. Wanna you know, if you make money, brilliant. You know, I'm not saying I don't want money. We do want money, but it's not my first drive now. The drive is to have a successful business for my, my children to see that, you know, you can follow your dreams and get there, you know, and have so some maybe something they could take over eventually as well.

That yeah. That's a really key point that you've raised. Right? And I think that comes down to this word success, and I've discussed this a bit with, previous guests, as in how you quantify success. Because previously, I'm guessing success for you would have been about the money, right?

And about, oh, I'm getting x, or how many sites you were, or locations you had dodgeball in. Whereas you've had a complete different shift. Yeah. Yeah. Completely different shift.

You know, you just see things completely different. I probably experience, isn't it? As you get older, you get more experience. It's and it's, you know, it's also on that trusting the right people. At first, I put a lot of trust in people as well.

There's unfortunately a lot of snakes out there in business, and you you've got to be careful who you speak to and how you are. You don't need lots of people knowing your business and what's going on. You just need the right people around you, and it's you've got to go over your gut as well, I think, a lot of it. I think that's a very a key thing, and you've got to be happy. If it's not making you happy, you're not gonna build anything properly.

You know, if you're happy, you will build things. I've very much always been, even from a child, if I enjoyed doing something, I'd be good at it. But if I didn't enjoy doing it, I've got no interest. And if you're if you're miserable down, you're not gonna be joining it. You're not gonna put your whole heart into something.

Yeah. It's really important to have that passion. And, you know, in in going back, and I don't wanna probing, but not probe too much, like, but we've got this social media part. So you're in COVID or even post COVID now. Right?

Because you say you're still recovering even back then, and COVID was what? 2019 when it all started. You've got all social media where everybody's like, I'm amazing. This is great. My business is this, this, and that.

And how do you block that out to make sure that it doesn't set you off for it's a lot of noise. Yeah. It's hard. I yeah. Sometimes, you know, I go on social media and you see someone that's saying amazing their work is and how successful they're doing, And it does rattle me a little bit.

I I do say that, but I've come to learn that that's not true. Because I don't believe it. I know it as well. I've even some people that have done that, and I've met those people, know those people, and I know it's not how it is. I think, you just gotta ignore it, and you just gotta build your own way of how you're gonna do it, and do your things.

I think it's important to always, like, this is good with this podcast, is the highs and the lows. Because in in anything in life, isn't it doesn't nothing goes smoothly all the way you want. You can't set something out. You're always gonna have to have an a, you know, a, b, c, d plan. I think it's important that people put more of that out there, really.

You know, things haven't gone as it planned, doesn't mean I'm gonna give up, doesn't mean it's gonna be a negative post, you can turn it into a positive post, and say, how are you gonna change it? You know, what's your next steps? Yeah. This hasn't worked out this time, yeah. Or, you know, business hasn't been great, but what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna change a different direction, a different structure, and try and go that avenue.

And if they wanna broadcast how they do it, that's fine, but don't put, oh, everything's hunky dory, and I'm sitting there, and The Maldives, you know, and all this, when nine out of 10 is times it's not true. Would you change anything? Yes. I would probably wish I learnt more at school because I find it really hard. I've basically had to self taught myself, everything I've done.

Google, look things up, research more now, and I've probably, as a business owner and wanting to build new businesses, I've had to do really a lot of research now, read up on it, which is hard because at the time at school I wish I'd learnt more. I've just mucked about, and I've tried to, especially, my middle son might listen to this, especially him. He's very much like me and thinks everything's gonna be fine, and likes to be the joker, where you need to learn a little bit more at school. I think that would have helped me a little bit on maybe some of the decisions, bad decisions I made.

But at the same time, I'm learning more now. I'm enjoying learning things. But, yeah, I do wish I learned a bit more at school. So kids, make sure you Yeah. Listen at school.

Definitely. That's really, really huge advice. And how about that part where, you know, you've got the business that's just, like, doing exceptionally well. Would you want to go back to that? And the reason why I ask that is because you've had a complete shift, right, in terms of what's it how you view success.

Would you wanna go back to the money, that that kind of, like, when it was just all seeming not necessarily easy, but it was all going to plan? No. I would wanna I'd learned from those, what I did right there, what I know now, and go again, and build something else, and build what I've learned, experience. I never wanna go back. I never go back, always go forward, and take those things, the good things and the bad things with you, and move on.

And you just experience, and you always give out any mistakes. So I'll never go back and change things, anything, or change maybe do something a little bit different, because I think you they're done that way for a reason for you for where you are now to go forward. %. Yeah. A %.

And I know you do a lot of training. You talked about training, mental health. Yeah. Is that your way to keep out the noise and to just keep you focused so you know where you're going? Yeah.

So I've been re I know training, as you know, is my life. I train every day. There's not a day I don't train. People tell me I over train. But I don't, you know, over train every day, just always be fit.

I need to train my mind. I go in the gym every morning, half five. I do two hours minimum. I train, train, train for competitions because I'll I get my I get my kicks from that now. You know, I love to compete, you know, I'm competitive, so you should know.

You know, and I and that's what I enjoy doing, and I I love I go into gym in the morning, and I and I I'm like a dog. I need to run, I need to throw weights around, do a HIIT session, for a couple of hours, and I'm ready for the day then. I'm set. If I don't train for some reason, for example, if it like, we've done Hyrox recently. I didn't have a competition till half four in the afternoon.

The data, I'm all over the place. You know, some people have to have a coffee. I need to go to the gym. The gym's been amazing for me. I think it's pro will prolong my life.

It's keeping me looking young. But I think it's so good for you, for your well-being. I met some amazing people through, the gym and training. But for your mind, it's brilliant. I feel more focused than when I go in and to do my work and tackling the different, you know, problems that might occur.

But, yeah, I've, you know, for my mind, it's brilliant. I think that's, you know and I can completely resonate with that because that's exactly why I train or overtrain, you know, as a result of dealing with the, yeah, the noise and to keep you keep you focused as well. And it's great that you have that awareness. Right?

Do you ever get sleepless nights? I used to have really bad, I would say probably up to about five, six years ago, I couldn't sleep at night. I'll be restless, have restless legs, be up through the night, everything. But six years ago, I trained a lot. I changed a lot of my training.

I got into competitions, and I've I'm become obsessed with it. You know, my eating's boring. My social life's boring. I don't do anything apart from train, eat chicken, steak, and veg. And, and my sleeping's brilliant.

I cut sometimes have naps in the day. I can like, I was we were in Malaga with Sam, and he's like, it's unbelievable. Like, you'd be talking and go, I'm gonna sleep now, and you'd be sleeping seconds. I can if you said now, let's go sleep, I'll sleep now. Because I use it as my recovery for my body and my mind.

I completely switch off. I've taught and it's been hard, because I used to everything go through your head. You must have noticed. You're laying there, oh, God, it all works through. I've managed to now, talk myself that, take that out of my head, and Mike, you need to recover your body.

If you wanna go to gym half five, if you wanna keep up with those 20 year olds, you need to recover your mind and your body. And, now I sleep so well. I can just sleep anywhere, anytime. Brilliant. I love it.

I'm so jealous. I know people go, how do you do it? But I've actually that's a self taught thing. I've done I just changed the whole mindset of sleep. Before, I used to hate it because you're there laying there, look at the ceiling thinking, oh god, got that bill to pay, or that person can't come into work.

I've got to do this, I've got to do that. And then I thought, right, take that out of your mind, because that's not helping you. And I mean, it helps so much, and I've just managed to kind of clear my mind. Yeah. I do have one or two times that, you know, I do have bad days, but majority of the time, sleep so well now.

That's incredible. But, sorry, I jumped in. One thing also I think has helped. I think no drinking alcohol, helps I think, eating the right foods, drinking plenty. I think all these things help get into your kind of recovery and your mindset, and you know that sleep's one of them as well.

Yeah. Healthy body, healthy mind. 100%. And you you're talking about, you know, that it's not been easy ever since COVID.

Yeah. The fact that you you're sleeping easy. But I'm guessing your mind's still going a million miles an hour even with the training, or have you kind of managed to slow your mind down in a day as well? No. It's still been tough, and, you know, I'm not ashamed to say recently.

My mental health haven't been great recently. I've gone through a bit of a bad patch, a lot better now, just due to work stresses. I'm looking to set up a new business, so because I need to build something else, because the sports coaching side of things isn't great. So I need to think plan b. So that kind of affected my mindset.

My mind quite a lot. Winter always does. It's hard time of year as well, isn't it? So, yeah, it is it's been it been tough, and I, difficult to switch off. And sometimes I go in the gym, and I might, you know, be on the running machine, and I'll be thinking, suddenly an idea will pop up.

Brilliant. You know? And suddenly, I sometimes think I could do that. And sometimes I go for a drive. People go for a walk, I go for a drive, and an idea will come in my head, one day.

And that's that helps me a lot, you know? Those kind of things, kind of ideas come in there. I do find it sometimes hard to switch off in the gym. Although it helps me overall, sometimes it you know, that that fog's sitting there. You've run your own business.

I guess, like, you talked about business partners with the Cyro. Is it Cyro? Cyro. Very right. Yeah.

But you've been doing your part on your own. Does it get lonely? Yeah. It used to. I used to.

Always want a business partner, although I've got a business partner with Essex Games, Sam, I've learned that it's better on my own than being a business partner. I do enjoy it, although, because you might be listening to this. You know, he's my mate. So, yeah, I do enjoy being in business with him. But I think, overall, any other businesses, I'll always be on my own.

I when I first started, I thought it was quite lonely, doing it. But now I bounce off ideas, you know, to friends, close friends, other people that are in the same kind of boat, not in the same industry, but and people have ideas of, well, have you tried this and that? So kind of speak to people more, you know? Or if you feel lonely, if you're running your own business, and you do feel it's a bit lonely, speak to people that run their own businesses, because they're out of advice. I'm not a believer that you're competing with anyone or anything.

You wanna help each other. Everyone is in the same boat. So I always think, come you know, like for me, if someone wants to speak to me, just speak to me. Do you know what I mean? Because we all it's funny how many people have go through the same things and the same thoughts just because it's a different industry.

Everyone's in the same kind of boat. You know, you might have staff and some people might have, you know, I don't know, some kind of, products, you know. It's how you deal with everything at, you know, different times. And, you know, and everyone does going back to staff, have staff, and people have problems with staff to deal with. So I think communicate with other people that are in the, you know, the same kind of way as you trying to build business.

I think that's key to speak to people. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Because, you learn from other people as well.

And Absolutely. And as you say, you're kind of going through that learning process now and setting up you've got other ideas in your head. Are you do you ever have those questions, though? Like, you I know you mentioned about the school and you didn't work as take in as much as you'd have liked to. You're doing things again with the business.

Anything in your mind that's saying, you can't do this, like, that kind of questioning going on. Yeah. I think I think everyone does. I think everyone questions this themselves. I don't think I can do this.

Don't get it all the time. You know, my evil me sits on my shoulder and tells me, you can't do this. You can't do that. And I mean, yeah, I'm gonna do it. The other side, I mean, I am.

I'm gonna take the risk. I'm gonna do it. Well, you know, if don't work out, it don't work out. You know, you gotta give it a go.

You gotta take that risk. You've got to. If you're running a business, it's so important. Take that risk. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.

You know, it's part of life. You know, life goes on. You just gotta take that risk. But, yeah, a lot of times, don't know. Don't know.

Just do it. I love that. The risk taking. And, before we wrap up, I always have one question, which we touched on a bit with when you talked about school, was if you were to talk with your younger self or Mike who's just starting out twenty five years ago, let's say, what would that be? I that's a tricky one, that one.

I said, I think I would always oh, I don't know. I don't know. That's a really tricky one to finish with. I said, learning from school. I would tell myself to learn from school.

Setting up, going into Winger, I probably, would have probably looked at things a little bit differently. Try not to be money orientated. Don't worry about that at the time, because money, it will come. If you're good at it, money will come, instead of thinking money first. So kinda build what you can, if that's kinda doing some free things, whatever industry you're in, and then build from there.

And probably I'll tell you one thing it would be, is probably getting yourself out there, you know, speaking to more people, going to these kind of, business days. You know, people have those, breakfasts that morning, don't they? Those kind of things. Get yourself out there a bit more. I probably didn't get myself out there as much because I believe it or not, I'm quite a shy person.

But I think, don't worry about what people think. Get yourself out there. Speak to as many people as you can. The more people you speak to, the more people are gonna know you, the more something will come. So, yeah.

Communicate and speak to people more. And do you feel like you're doing that now? Yeah. Definitely. I'm communicating, speaking to a lot more people, and, you know, more people asking questions.

And you meet some amazing people, and you meet people that, wow, you could connect something with them somehow. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Differently.

I think but then I think when I was younger, you're a bit younger and, you know, you're a bit more shy. Mate, well, not everyone is, but, you know, you're not as confident. Now, you know, I'm 48, I'm thinking, you know, I'll go and speak to you now. You know? Doesn't matter.

We're all we're all the same people in different clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And sometimes it's interesting, isn't it?

It's that naivety that kind of gets you to start, right, at the beginning, like, twenty five years ago, and then you then get wise with age in terms of how you look at things as well. Yeah. Definitely. And actually, I've got one other thing to say. Yeah.

Set a business plan out. I never did that when I was younger. Because I didn't really learn anything, I kind of just went with it. I think now, where I've done with Essex Games, what I'm doing with this new business I'm trying to do, is I'm setting a business plan. It doesn't always go as a business plan, but then you've kind of got a vision, you've got kind of, something to lead you, kind of, where to go instead of going in with a blank canvas, is that, okay, this is how much money this might cost me to do, how long would it generate to I paid that money back, or, you know, how I need this bit of equipment, or whatnot.

Certainly, I have a business plan, like a, you know, a four year business plan, which, you know, people can get off the internet now. There's so much help out there. But I think, yeah, you need to set yourself a business plan. Be organized. Manifest it.

Absolutely. You've been awesome. Thank you. Thank you for, like, really sharing your story because it's actually I mean, I'm sort of I find it really inspiring, but also it's a story that I wouldn't have even guessed your story at all, just from conversations that we've had. So hopefully those listening today that feel that kind of are feeling it, right, running a business, that they realize they're not alone and actually talking with others, sharing and being open and realizing that actually a lot of business owners do go through all of this, and it's not just you that's experiencing it.

Yeah. Just talk to people. You know, there's always people out there that will help you. You know, people who even people don't know me, they even wanna send me a message. Always wanna help someone, because I never wanna see anyone feeling down or upset about work.

You wanna enjoy it. Life's short. Life is short, definitely. Enjoy it. Enjoy it.

So thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening today.