Quitting Corporate, Starting Over: Carina McLeod on Building a Business in Costa Rica and Scaling Back in the UK

In this raw and honest episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod steps into the guest seat for the very first time, interviewed by Joanna Howes, leadership coach at Change Creators.

Carina shares the untold story of walking away from a successful corporate career at Amazon, burning out, and making the life-altering decision to move to Costa Rica. What began as a bid for freedom quickly became a survival mission, juggling two businesses, a new identity, and motherhood in a foreign country. Eventually, Carina returned to the UK, where she scaled her company eCommerce Nurse into a global eCommerce growth agency.

We dive deep into:
 ✅ Hitting burnout at the peak of corporate success
 ✅ The identity shift that comes with stepping off the career ladder
 ✅ Building a business in a foreign language and culture
 ✅ The emotional cost of starting over (with a baby and no roadmap)
 ✅ Reclaiming self-belief and stepping fully into leadership
 ✅ Why asking for help was the hardest and smartest move
 ✅ How discomfort fuels growth (and what Costa Rica really taught her)

Whether you’re on the edge of change, building something from scratch, or trying to find your voice as a founder, this episode will remind you that reinvention isn’t a risk… it’s a strategy.

👉 Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more real-talk episodes that reveal the grit behind entrepreneurship.

 #YourMindYourBusiness #EntrepreneurJourney #BurnoutToBusiness #FemaleFounder #BusinessGrowth #SelfBelief #SelfDiscovery 

Follow us on:

👉 Website: https://yourmindyourbusiness.com/
👉 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@YourMindYourBusiness/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/your-mind-your-business/
👉 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/your_mind_your_business/
👉 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@yourmindyourbiz

Transcript

Welcome to Your Mind, Your Business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship. I'm your host or not your host today, Carina McLeod, entrepreneur and fitness fanatic.

And today, we are gonna be changing things up. So I am actually in the guest seat today, and the host for today is Joanna Howes. Hello. So a leadership coach of Change Creators and somebody that has been working I've been working with for a number of years and knows me very well, has been with me through many highs and lows, seen my worst and best. So I'm super excited that you're interviewing me today.

So thank you, Jo. Oh, it's an honour. An absolute honour to be doing this with you today. And I think because the audience know you as the host.

What's some of these early stories that they need to get to know you a bit more? Before we go into all the business stuff, who are you as Carina? Who am I as Carina? Great question. So sitting here in this seat today, I'm the CEO of eCommerce Nurse, an ecommerce growth agency.

But actually, who I really am is, as we say, a proud mum and somebody that has been on a journey, I would say, of complete self discovery. And it's not only an entrepreneurial journey, but a journey that has my entrepreneurial story has been shaped by the journey that I've been on from a personal growth perspective. Yeah. What would you say is a really poignant moment in your life where that self discovery really started? So my career started, Amazon was the main career, the most important role I think that I remember when I started out.

When I was at Amazon, I absolutely loved it there. I sort of thrived in an environment where it was a bit of a, I guess in those days, an entrepreneurial environment where it wasn't the company it is today. You could just kind of come up with an idea and basically launch it. And so I really thrived in that environment, and I launched new categories into The UK market. That was my thing.

But what happened over time, I guess, was that I was hungry, ambitious. I think I was called formidable at that time. I can imagine. Yeah. Probably still am.

Yeah. And it got to a point, I after working there for about seven years, I started to burn out basically, at it got to a point that I climbed the corporate ladder really quick, so I was quite senior for my age. And then it was like, well, what more? There was something missing. I felt that I was gonna start, or I was starting to go and hit self destruct.

And so for me, I then just thought, right, that's it. I need something different. And so something different for me was quit my job, rented out my house, and purchased a single ticket to Latin America. And that was the big move for me. Why Latin America?

I've always had a thing for Latin culture. So I studied Spanish at university, and I lived in Seville, I lived in Barcelona. So I've lived overseas and everything. So Latin America was like a unexplored territory for me. And so I just went out there.

And of course I was going out there traveling and then to cut a very long story short, I ended up meeting my husband at the time. I then fell pregnant with my child and my daughter and then stayed put and basically I lived in Costa Rica for eight years. It's a long time. It's a long time. How did that Costa Rica, that eight years, reshape you?

It was, it's a crazy, crazy when I think back to sort of the person that I was when I started out in Costa Rica. I was a very confident person in my 20s and when I left The UK. But when you go to a country and live in a different country that's very foreign to what you're used to, you live every single day out of your comfort zone. The basic things that you take for granted, like here in England, just going to the bank, going to the shop, driving down the street, all of that then becomes uncomfortable. And so I started to live a life where I was constantly out of my comfort zone, but I was enjoying it and everything.

But that's what really started to shape me and make me, I guess who I am today. As I say, I've often been a confident and strong character. But that was when I was really exposed, and it's one of those where you could just, turn around and say, do you know what, I'm done with this, I'm gonna go back to The UK, go for an easy life. But I didn't, I stuck with it, I stuck with it. Of course, I married somebody that lived in Costa Rica.

We had a daughter. It wasn't really the option. Okay. And so then it came to that point then for me of, well, how do you make a life here? How do you survive in this environment?

And how do you then create a new identity? Because of course, there's the loss of brand identity. Yep. You know? You've come from being a career woman.

All of a sudden I've then got no job. I'm a mum, and I was treated completely different, very much, not as the person I was treated in The UK. I was treated as almost somebody that's gonna become a housewife at home. And no disrespect to anyone, you know, if you were a housewife at home. But very much, my life was all about career, career, career.

So it was very different for me. So did you work at all when you were out there for those eight years? So that was the point for me, was like, well I don't wanna live like this, and I need to earn a certain amount of money to be able to return home because of course I was missing home as well. And so for me then, I set up my own business. And at the time it was called Bumpito.

And this was while you were in Costa Rica, yeah. Whilst I was in Costa Rica, I set up an online store because that's what I knew, right? I worked at Amazon, launched new categories into the market. So that's what I did. I ended up with some exclusive, agreements to distribute toy brands in Costa Rica, created an online store, did it all myself, and went out to all the different independents and that.

And basically, all these products were being sold in the shops in Costa Rica, and started to make a company out there. I think we were on TV a couple of times because we introduced kind of really quirky, quirky products into the Costa Rican market, which was really exciting at the time. But then, so I launched that, but then at the same time I started to get contacts from my days at Amazon where companies were reaching out going, Karina, we're stuck. We don't know how to work with the team at Amazon. We need some help.

Could you help us? And I started to realize that actually people needed help and on the Amazon side. And so I started to do consulting on the Amazon side as well. So I was effectively trying to, like, foreign country, run an online business in a completely different language. I mean, I speak Spanish, but it's quite different.

And then this consulting part of the business was growing. And so at one point, I was I was sort of juggling the two. Okay. So I'm really curious. What's come up for me here is that you left The UK because it became too much and you were burning out.

You go to Costa Rica and then you find yourself in a situation with a new identity, a baby, and two jobs. Basically, yes. So was there any, like, pattern repetition or was this being done differently then because of what you learned from Amazon? Do you know what? I didn't really learn that from Amazon.

I think I didn't know why I I was running away. Okay. And that's something that I've really acknowledged now of when the things don't sit right with me, I'm no longer running away. So I think at the time, I didn't realize that I was burnt out. I was just like, I'm done with this.

I need to get away, and off I went. And I guess there was almost trying to replace what I had in The UK almost that was a little bit of certainty, right, of the security of having these businesses. And so, yeah. And it's funny, I met someone out in Costa Rica. It was actually a Scottish lady, Sheila.

Really inspirational lady, worked in the in the government in The UK for years and retired out in Costa Rica. And she said to me, it's funny, you, you left the rat race in The UK, and you've created your own rat race in Costa Rica. Yeah. That's what I was seeing. I'm like, this is so interesting.

You've repeated the same. But is that looking back, what do you think caused that? Or as I say, was it built differently in Costa Rica though? Were you, as you, as your identity was forming, was it more on your terms? To be honest, I think it goes back to the survival part.

I was, I wasn't thinking. I think for me, I was trying to fill the space, the empty space, and trying to see and figure out what could work, what could make me almost feel comfortable in this environment, Where could I feel more secure, and what's gonna earn me a certain amount of money? And it came to a point then where I got to a point where I had two businesses, and I was like, okay, do I continue with the two, Or where do I go? Because what happened was the consulting part took off. Somebody, I started to do consulting for some US agencies and so I started to get in with the, in The US.

And then I was invited to speak at an event. And I didn't think about it then. I was like, kind of, I've always sort of been comfortable speaking and public speaking. But I was like, okay, I haven't done this for years. So I went out, flew out to Las Vegas.

I think my parents were over in Costa Rica, looked after my daughter at the time. And I went out there, and I remember that was like the time I'd been in a professional environment for a long time. And I was speaking and I spoke, there was over a thousand people I spoke to, and I just felt back in my own skin. It felt comfortable. Yeah.

Even though to anyone else, like, a thousand people uncomfortable. But for me, it was comfortable. And that was a pivotal then changing moment for me when I was like, that's when my business and consulting then kicked off. Because the amount of contacts I got from that, I then had to make the decision, do I continue with this distribution business, which to be honest, in Costa Rica, meant I had to take more of a, a route where it's beyond it's a bit corrupt. Okay.

A bit of money under the table to get into some stores. And I was like, it didn't sit right for me. And it also meant that I needed to invest in a lot more stock. So I decided to stop that and then focus on the consulting. And that's effectively when my business started to boom.

And I started to then become me. Not me again, because it's a slight identity change from who I was in the twin my twenties. But I felt it felt like I found my place. Did it feel like your energy was back? 100%.

You felt more alive, more focused. Yeah. So how long were you doing the business in Costa Rica before you came back? I must have been so I moved back into The UK in 2000 February, just before COVID. And I set up my business was officially set up in 02/2017.

But I think I was running it for about five years before this. So about three or four years, I was running it in Costa Rica. And how big was your team at this point? Just had a couple of people.

About two or three people freelancing. Because for me, you know, I never when I started consulting, I never thought I was gonna become a business owner. That was never in my head. It was all about survival and how do I make living in this country work for me.

Yeah. And it was all about shaping that. And I never really thought I'm onto something. It was just bringing in a nice income. So there was an element of, okay, I had freelancers, but never, the employees and everything was never on my mind.

Yeah. So I was, and my business started to kick off. It was The US. So that was, because of the, conference and that, and that's where, that's where the Amazon space that I was in really took off, so it just made sense. We you a UK Amazon agency didn't exist in those days.

So the you know, even at an Amazon agency, that term did not exist when I started out, and it's a saturated market now. Okay. So it's really early days. And so, yeah, that was kind of where I was. I was just like little old me, just sitting there in my in my house in in Costa Rica, with a couple of freelancers, and just kind of living the life.

And, yeah, things have changed. As you say, so what was that turning point where you were just like, oh my gosh, I need to get more of a team. This is a proper business. We need to really sort this out. Yeah.

The business started to grow. I started to get more clients, and I started to feel I felt quite stressed because I was trying to take too much on. At the same time, there was a lot going on in my personal life. There was a moment where I then got to a point that I'm like, okay, this isn't working in Costa Rica anymore. And there came a point where I was like, okay, you can continue living in Costa Rica and live this life that you're trying.

Because what I was doing was I was almost trying to suppress the growth of the company because almost growth meant change, and that I had to make a decision as to do I just kinda move my whole family over to The UK? And it was coming, it was coming, and I had I had therapy and everything to get through it because I I hit dark times where I was really struggling, and I was trying to figure out what it was. And in the end, made the decision to move. It took me about six months to figure out what that decision was. Okay.

And then it was like, right now, I'm gonna go back to the to The UK, gonna create a life there. I'm onto something with the business. I'm gonna go and make that happen. I need to make that happen in The UK, because my business was also growing. And I was trying to make phone calls with The UK, and I'm on Costa Rican time, which is like on Yeah.

US time. So although I had clients in The US, it started to build up in The UK. So I was just trying to juggle it all, and it just made sense, yeah, to come back to The UK. So what is it within you? So do you feel like there's, like, a natural entrepreneurial spirit in you, or is it just because, like, I know you.

I know that there's this phenomenal drive within you and this phenomenal ability just to get stuff done and take action. What was this, like, voice in you or feeling in you going, no, I know I can do this? You know, it's I've always got this thing where I look at other people and I think they can do that. So why can't I do it? Like, what's really stopping me?

You know, it's anything from, like, when I see somebody run a race and somebody gets an awesome time, I'm like, I can do that. But obviously, that requires training. Yeah. So I always sort of look around me and think nothing's impossible.

Yes. There there's always self doubt that kicks in. But I'm always like, if someone else can do it, I can give it a go. And I've always been like that, as in, problem is sometimes I say yes to everything, and I go, well, I can do that.

I can do that. And then I'll, like, figure out, well, actually, maybe you can't do that. But I'm never I'll never shy away. And I think that time, as I said, in Costa Rica, when you spend every day out your comfort zone, even the basics, and you go through some tough experiences that I went through out there, then when you just see, it just gives you that drive because you've already been through hardship. Yeah.

So then you're like, do you know what? Actually, I can do that. If I got through that situation, then I can try and make that happen. And that's the thing that keeps me going Yep. Is always knowing that, do you know what?

Actually, you can make things happen. Yeah. So stacking that evidence and going, well, if I did that, I can do this, and just keep backing yourself going through. Yeah. Okay.

So then for you, so the business is going, we're successful, we're doing well, you're back in The UK. When did you what was then that next hurdle or challenge that you needed to overcome? Yeah. So when I came back to UK, COVID hit. Of course.

Yeah. And for some businesses, and I know I've interviewed a few people, businesses really struggled. My business boomed because it was e commerce. Of course. Yeah.

So it just went absolutely crazy. That's when all the, agencies just started to appear and everything. But it was also tough because it was in a booming industry. There was loads of clients coming through our doors. But anyone with experience in that space were demanding certain the wages that they were asking for and everything was just out of this world.

And that was really, really tough to manage because at the time, I think I was doing business development, and I suck at sales because I'm just say it how it is and I'm too honest, you know? So I'm trying to do biz dev and trying to, like, get clients in and get them to pay a certain amount, and I'm like, yeah, I'll do it for free, because I just wanna help, you know, and all of that. So I was also doing HR, and at the time, which we'll probably come on to, I wasn't necessarily, gifted with empathy, let's put it that way. And so I was quite, that was a challenge for me. And basically, I had so many different hats on, and I was trying to manage it all.

And so that, the big moment for me was then actually starting to realize I start I need to have a team on board, and that's when I started to grow the team. And I always remember my employee and my employee, Sarah, who's an absolute star and she's still with us. I remember that being such a big move. But now I have a team of 20 and growing, and even if my team was at 50, it just feels like, it just becomes natural, right? It becomes comfortable with that one.

And then I just built the team on from there, and just started to realize that I wasn't skilled at biz dev, so don't try and do biz dev. Yes, I can do biz dev, as in people wanna get to know who the owner is, and I can give that authenticity and show them the passion and the culture of the business. But that isn't my forte. Neither is, you know, HR. Neither is finance.

Neither is, well, I could go through many roles, but I had all the different hats. And starting to find the right people, that was a big, big, big move for me. Big change. And I remember, I think we were talking around this time as well, in terms of that big decision, freelance versus full time. And that difference in that commitment of going, oh, PAYE, what that means, and the different way you've gotta look after people.

And I remember that being quite a change for you Yeah. To make that commitment. Yeah. What I've always loved about you is your self awareness and acknowledgment of your strengths and your development areas. And you pointed out there that empathy wasn't a natural.

And something we did, we did the DISC profile Yes. Which I think really helped you to sort of go, ah, I get it now. I can see why that is. And we actually found it really interesting, the colours we're wearing, because you are red and I am green, and that is our DISC profiles. How much did it help you building that more awareness in your leadership and your leadership style and how to lean into different types of people?

Huge. It's absolutely huge. The leadership, and thanks to you, Jo, for introducing me to that because when we, you started working with me, I was like, I mean, my natural was a bit 50% blue, 50% red at the time. But I was in 100% red. Yep.

Like, my energy was, like, proper force. And I had a weird relationship, actually, with red, because actually, when I realized I was red, I felt a little bit upset by it, because I almost felt that that red energy was aggressive and just like, I didn't see the positive in it. So learning about that just made me realize, actually, one, it's okay to have red energy. And if you use it, you need it.

Exactly. And that's red energy. Yeah. And that was almost like, on reflection, survival mode, a survival of, I went full on red to survive and get through living in Costa Rica and spending time out there because I whilst I was married at the time, I was on my own four days a week. Okay.

So my ex husband was, like, working away. So I had to go into that protective mode. And then when I was in the business trying to make things work and do all the different roles, so I was full on in that red. But then I started to realize, actually, that's not good. It's not healthy at the same time.

There's a positive, but it's not healthy. And then starting to realize how then, when I was bringing on team members, how it was good to have different energies and different colours. But also I started to learn that em empathetic side. Yeah. Because for me, when we I had that thing with the freelancers versus payroll.

What really scared me when I was hiring people was I was so dependent on them, and so I became really accommodating. And because I was like, well, I can't cope without them. I need these people. I need these people. And so I was at one point letting people almost get away with anything just because I didn't wanna say not say boo to a goose because, wasn't necessarily afraid to have confrontation, but I didn't want to risk losing anyone because everything was, like, working.

And so I was a bit in one of those parts where I was, like, got this red energy. I'm, like, in survival mode. I'm just but then at the same time, I'm accommodating, and I just it was, like, one extreme to the other, and I wasn't using the right energy. Yeah. So how is that did it actually influence then?

Because you say you're now 20. Understanding yourself more and then understanding that your the people that were different to you, but also then complimentary and filled the gaps Did you become more strategic in your next hires and how you've now become 20? Yeah. Definitely. So we've got a mix.

We know sort of all the colours and the team, and so we have a mix of different energies, of blue energies, so very analytical people. We'll have yellows, some more extroverts, visionaries. We've got the reds, and green energy as well. And that mix has helped, but what I've realized over time is I've now got that mix of energy. Yeah.

You know, that, part where I've understood that I was quite, either in survival mode or I used to freak out and go into risk adverse where I wouldn't wanna do anything. And I used to have a bit of a boxing match between the two characters. Then all of a sudden, I start to go into I've then and also, I when I was running the business and, from my experience, which I keep reflecting back on with Costa Rica because it's so fundamental, was, reflecting back on with Costa Rica, but because it's so fundamental, was I became an introvert. Right? I in my twenties, I was out there.

I was, like, loved to go out. I I mean, we have our party in our twenties, but I'd enter the I'd have energy. I'd be quite, loud, probably, let's put it that way. And I lost all of that. And then I thought I remember saying to someone, oh, it's alright because I'm an introvert.

And someone looked at me and went, what? You're not. You're not. And so I almost because that survival mode, I went into myself. And so it's interesting that I've now then started to become that extrovert as well where I start becoming more of that person where I'm not hiding anymore and feeling comfortable.

Like I said, when I when I hit the stage, I was like, yes. You know? I'm on stage. I'm home. But I went through a bit of a battle with that, of trying to almost go, oh no, I didn't, I can be an introvert.

I don't need to be, and that comes down to connection as well, which is another thing that I've learned through the journey. Yeah. I think you're sort of supposed to be able to lean in and ask for help. Yes. So maybe, like, we'd have conversations, and you were very good at building a little fiefdom around yourself, I think, to protect yourself Yeah.

And maybe not let people in. Yeah. When you think of, Costa Rica version of Karina, because it feels like sometimes it is there's that version of you and there's today's version of you, which is very much like Adam Grant's work when we talk about, like, our past self, our present self, our future self. I feel there's this big past self. When you reflect and look back on her, what feelings or come up for you when you think of her?

Do you know what? It's interesting. She was, a bit scared and lacked self belief. Those are the two big things that stand out to me. And what do you think, if there's someone, like, listening now to your story going, I can so resonate because I feel like I've lost myself and I've lost that self trust and belief in myself.

What is it you think that helped you get some of that back? And, you know, it's incredible what you've done now. Your business is growing. I know you've had highs and lows. You've now got the podcast.

You know, some people sit and will look at you and go, I can never do what she's done. But you were at that place where you were lost. What are two or three things that could help some of the listeners to go help brought you back? Yeah.

Do you know, I think the self belief is a is a huge one. And self belief comes with you've gotta surround yourself by around the right people. Because if I'd have stayed, let's say, in Costa Rica, in my isolated world, introvert, introverted world as well, I don't think anything would have changed. But it's only when and also asking for help. It's only when I started to just go, right, There's something that doesn't sit right here.

There's something that isn't right. But at I couldn't put my finger on it. That's when I had therapy for it to then start saying, well, what is it that's missing? Because I'm quite I like to talk about, you know, I'm quite, an advocate of therapy and counselling and that to help you figure things out in your mind.

So that's when I started to realise and started to then understand where I was and that I needed to talk with people. And then, of course, then we went when I when you met me, I think at the time, I I I was lacking self belief. Yeah. I think I remember I didn't believe I was the CEO. Oh, you couldn't say it.

You couldn't call yourself CEO. I couldn't call myself a CEO. It felt like a bad word. And to the point that my daughter I don't know if you remember. My daughter made me, I am a CEO hat.

It was like a cone. And I put it on my head with, like, a ribbon underneath the chin. But it was she was supporting me, you know, because I couldn't believe that I was a CEO. So I think for anyone that's listening, it's okay to not to go through that. You're gonna you're naturally gonna go through a change, whether it's, you know, an identity shift, and I've gone through quite a few.

Yeah. But really surrounding yourself and knowing that to ask for help, and surrounding yourself by people that can actually give you help you reflect. I think that's really important because I even had it recently where I started to go I'm going through a different growth in my life. And all of a sudden, I got a bit, ugh, but I knew where I was at. And so when I asked for help, made it different.

You know, help me because I went out for external and hearing external voices because you beat yourself up a bit. And so that's what I would say and, you know, and it's okay to feel scared. It's whether or not, you know, that's where the growth happens. I wouldn't have grown.

I wouldn't take that scared feeling away at all because that's who I am today. I wouldn't have the business that I have today. I wouldn't have the life that I have today. But that that is the part of Where you came from? Yeah.

Are you comfortable if I share a breakthrough I remember you having in one of your sessions? Go for it. You can always edit it out if you decide not to. Yeah. Go for it.

But I do remember a time when we were trying to help you stand in your identity of the CEO, trying to help you to really connect with yourself. You I could see this all this action and will. You could see what you could achieve, but there was just something stopping you. And I remember asking you, like, why do you do what you do? And we did this whole exercise of picturing your daughter and the mom you wanted to be and the role model you wanted to be for her and what did you what do you wanted to stand for so she could see what she could become.

And I remember we just so connected to you, to your daughter. And it was so interesting because as human beings, we do more to move away from pain than we do to move towards pleasure. And what we did was moved you away from the pain of you not being the person you wanted to be for your daughter. And I think that in that moment, you were just like, that's it. I know why I'm doing this, I know my purpose, and you just went boom.

And it was like, in that one session, you changed quite quickly. And that session will always stay with me because that's the fire, and that's the fire in my belly. Whenever I get stuck, and I think I can't do this, it's not about, I don't have the option to go, well, you can't. Because I have to for my daughter. I mean, just financially, everything, I have to for my daughter, but I'm there to inspire my daughter, for her to feel that actually she can achieve when you put your mind to it.

And I'm seeing that in her. I'm seeing her grow up, and seeing the influence that I've had. Just, she's just becoming so smart and savvy, and it's just amazing, amazing to watch. But also there's just that protective element as well, you know? So, yeah, everything that I do now is always, you know, and it makes me laugh.

I think I found a a video the other day of her with a headset on when she was, like, three or four years old just pretending to be me on the headset. And just those moments make me laugh. And she finds it funny now, but, yeah, that is definitely that's what that's what keeps me going. Where you really connect to your why and to drive you. So just changing tact a little bit, we know, like, I see your Instagram, your fitness.

It makes me feel incredibly lazy. And I'm like, sitting there watching Netflix, looking at my phone. Oh, she's doing another one of those crazy things. It's like, how do I do that? What's been the relationship between the fitness and your business, and how are they completely separate?

Does one help with the other in terms of your mindset and how you show up? I'd love to know more about that. Yeah. If I didn't have the fitness, I don't know how effective I'd be with my business. It drives me.

There'll be times when there's a lot on your show there's a lot on my shoulders. Right? It's like there was a part towards, like, the end of last year where we lost a lot of clients. We were we were hitting our targets. We were going full steam ahead.

I put a crazy target out there. We were going for it. And then all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang. Things hit us. The business went completely dropped, and it really, really hit me hard.

Had I not have had my fitness regime, I would have really struggled. But I kept going with that by just waking up and going, right. I'm not right in the right head space. I'm gonna go and train. And that would just get me in a place where, yeah, okay.

There's the endorphins and everything. But it would allow me to just get my head in the right space. So then I could start get on get at my desk Yep. Grab a cup of coffee, and then I could work, and then I'm in the right head space. The right head space for the client for our clients, the right head space for my team, everything, because it just gets rid of that any negative thoughts, that anxiety, everything.

So it really does de stress me. So fitness is really key, but even that, it's just, it goes back to that whole part of when I look around and I think, well, if that person's doing that, then I can do it. And so, you know, when I start doing these, well, as you know, I start doing crazy, quite crazy races, or my friends, like, I'm even doing one on Saturday, and they're like, do you fancy doing X? Yeah, sure. And I don't even know what I've signed up to, but it looks like challenging.

Because it taps into something. It's not, for me, just about the fitness. You go, sometimes in those races, and you go into a dark space where you're like, what are you doing? Wow. Like, what made you think this was fun?

Right? But then you have these conversations internally going, well, you know you can do it because you've been through this, you've been through that, you've done all of that. So sort it out, suck it up, and move on. And that kind of chat that I have just keeps me going, but it's almost like then I can apply that to my business as well because it's all that resilience.

So that whole part of the fitness then applies to Departure is over. Yeah. It's incredibly impressive. Like, the discipline and just the yeah. You are an inspiration.

Thank you. Thank you. Just come to my personal trainer. It's gonna so I'd like to know, you know, if we look back kind of recently then with the with the business and you it went down, what would you say though over the last few years has been the biggest challenge for you that you're like, woah, hang on a minute. That one nearly got me, but this is what got me through it.

Do you know, I think I've been really fortunate with the business in the sense that all our growth has been organic. COVID hit, and then the business just boomed. And it wasn't until the end of last year where I actually probably had the strongest kick that I've ever punched that I've ever had. I mean, I always do it as a use the analogy of being in a boxing had fights in the I've been pretty past you. But, you know, I've had, you know, playing around in a ring, but not necessarily a match.

But where you're taking punches left, right, and centre, but punches that you can take. At the end of last year, I reckon I took one of those punches that I was on the floor. And you know, we, like, do the countdown, ten, nine. I felt like that. I felt like I was, like, completely down on the ground.

And that was that one moment where I I remember having a word with myself and going, you gotta get back up, Carina. You have to get back up. There's no, you know but it was like this, like, probably a second few seconds, but it just felt like things were on pause all of a sudden. So I had a moment. Had a few days moment.

Went through a complete spiral emotions, questioning how I got there, why I was there, whether I could take my tell how do I manage all of that? And then and then boom. Then but that was a tough moment, but I wouldn't take that ever away. So, yes, we lost quite a few clients at once. Some we weren't expecting.

They were about to sign new contracts. Oh. Big clients. Worst times in the year, you know, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve, when I was supposed to spend time with family. But I learned so much, and I changed the business based on that.

And the business is now at a far greater trajectory as a result of that happening. And it also I feel like I've changed as well and transformed because I started to realize that I had to start asking for help and admitting Yeah. That I can't do this alone. So I was gonna say, what were those things that changed me? So that's one, going help me out.

Can I come in? What are some of the others? So that, again, people listening are in this are in this place at the moment going, I just don't know how I'm gonna get back up again. What else helps you then to change? What did you put in place?

of all, admitting that you need help is harder than it seems. I wear a hero cape. I like it. As you know, I like to be the hero, and I've tried to identify why I like to be the hero, gone back to childhood and everything to understand why I wear that cape and realizing that actually you're not gonna be the hero.

You're not gonna save everyone. You've got to actually, you know, admit that you can't do things alone. So for me, the biggest thing was just going and asking people for help. Yeah. And actually opening up and saying, do you know what?

This isn't great. And this is what we're gonna do. Because there's a part of me with the business I feel responsibility, and I'm sure anyone listening feels that responsibility when you've got, you know, so people.

They've all got to pay their mortgages, everything. And if your business is starting to go down, thankfully, we've never got to that really bad point. We've all, you know, because I've always been we've always been on the finances with reserves and things. But there's that responsibility. And so almost you don't wanna shake, you don't wanna scare people.

You don't want people to think, oh, am I at risk? And then they go elsewhere. But actually, I had to realize I had to be open. And so what I did was I said to everyone, this is currently the situation, but this is what we're doing about it. So they could see, right, this is a reality, but actually, this is what's happening to recover from it.

And what I actually did was although we were weren't in a great place, I actually then said, but this is where I this is my vision for the next three years. So you gave direction. I gave direction, yeah. Nice. And I gave them a bit of crazy, I took a risk in the sense that I said, right, we're gonna go, we're not just going here, we're going there.

Because I didn't wanna just, you know, so I said, take the downtime, enjoy any downtime, because you're gonna need to use this downtime to scale anything that you're doing, to write any SOPs, to sort all the workflows and processes out, so when we get to the next stage, you're ready for it. Nice. I came out of that meeting, and I remember thinking, did I do the right thing? Because I've said things aren't great right now. Yeah.

But then I've just said, but things are gonna go like that. And I questioned myself a huge amount. But actually, that was the time I was so clear Yeah. In my mind where I wanted to take things and still am, that we are taking it to x.

And it and it doesn't matter what gets in our way, we will get there. And it just changed me Yeah. To that part of thinking, oh, can we do it? You know, that knock that I said, you know, end of last year to yep. Got it.

Got it. So I'm hearing there. There was this an element of vulnerability, letting the team in and putting the cards on the table, which I think is such a strength and vital for leaders to be able to do today, and then to give that direction and that hope and that motivation to go, I'm showing you we still believe in this, and we're all gonna go on this journey together. So I think that's I personally go that's genius in I'm letting you all in, and I'm gonna take you with us to even better. So I think, well done.

Oh, thank you. I think that's really good. There's an area I'm curious to look at because in terms of where you are now and you've got this big directory, I do remember lots of conversations around you going, I I'm in, I'm in, I'm controlling everything. No. I don't wanna control anything anymore.

No. I'm back controlling everything, Joe. No. I don't wanna control it. How's that dance going with defining what your role is in the business now and how involved you get and how much you just empower others to take a step back.

Yeah. That I've done a lot of dancing, and then I go, I'm in the business again. Everybody wants me in. And it's like realizing that I'm often in the business because I want to be in the business because I am controlling to some degree.

You know, it's almost like it's your baby, isn't it? You wanna just make sure everything's done a certain way. But I dance less now. Because I've realized if I wanna get to x, and by saying to the team we're gonna get there, I'm gonna let the team down if I am in the business because I'm not gonna be able to get us there. And so that's where what sticks in my mind is whenever I start feeling myself get involved now, I'm like, okay, Corinne.

You're sacrificing growth now. And even with the team, I'm like, I'd love to be able to help you with that. But if I'm gonna help you with that, I can't do x. And so that's where I've had to be a lot more disciplined, but also realizing that, a, things aren't gonna be perfect.

People are gonna make mistakes. People are gonna learn from mistakes, and it's okay. We might lose a client here or there. We might lose team members, But that's just the way it is. And I think that was why I used to start getting involved was I'd start to panic.

Oh, we're gonna lose a client. Yeah. Or we're gonna lose a team member. We're gonna lose this. We're gonna lose that.

And that's fine. You can't control. Yep. You can't control. If somebody wants to leave, they want to leave.

If a client's gonna end up going because they was were brought into another contract or didn't think we were adding certain value even though we've proven it. Yep. Let them. And I think that, for me, has been the key part is just knowing that, actually, things aren't gonna always work.

Just be okay to run with it. Yeah. And as a result, the team are now running with it because they feel empowered, and they just, you know, and I've I always feel grateful every day I wake up for the team that I have because they're incredible, and the business runs through it runs itself. Is the business still fully remote? Yes.

Which I know that was even before COVID you had that. Yeah. How for you have you maintained and looked after a culture, one, while you're scaling and two, being fully remote? What have you learned as a business owner and leader in how important that culture and looking after it has been to the business's growth? Do you know it's really interesting because we had somebody just complete their probation peer probationary period, and their review just nearly brought me to tears because it was all about the culture, saying that they fitted in and felt like they settled it in in three months more than fifteen years in another role.

Wow. In a role that was going to the office versus remote. That says a lot about the culture that we've built, which I'm really proud of. And to be honest, that's always been the core thing.

It's always been we've been clear on core values, which we worked on right from day one. And we recruit based on making sure that everyone shares those common values. And as soon as there's a misalignment, that's often when somebody goes Yeah. Or they're not the right person.

So we do a lot of checking with that, but I have to live and breathe them. So if I'm saying, oh, one of our values is work life balance, we'll show it. Yeah. So I do that, you know?

I every Monday morning, I do a video. I welcome everyone. I always share with them what crazy races I've done at the weekend. Or on Friday, I do. I share I get vulnerable with them.

I share them how I'm feeling, etcetera. And so and making sure that I am that role model. Because if I'm not and if we're not living them, then it isn't. And so, and at one point, we had a little bit of, I could feel the culture getting a little bit toxic. And there was this culture where there was no feedback.

And that becomes dangerous with a remote business. And so one year, one of my goals was to just make sure that we had a feedback culture because in a remote environment, gossip can go it can be it just can just spiral. Yeah. And that's I could see that starting to happen, and so I had to stop it.

It meant change. It meant change in in staff, but that's fine, if that's what needs to be done. Because then it was like scary, but no longer scary. Because actually changing that, and now we have a feedback culture, like, it's not, oh, such and such has done that. And then I go, well, have you told them no?

Well, can you have that conversation? Like, we're not, we're all adults. We can have that, and everyone does, and everyone shares. Because I think one of the things we worked on was your challenge with having difficult conversations, wasn't it? You're like, I just can't do it, I just can't do it.

And then you started to do it and you're like, oh, it's not that bad. It's alright, it's gonna And I absolutely love having difficult conversations because Did you ever think you'd say that? No. No? No.

Because you had to sit with me and, like, be like, you'd tell me what to say almost, and I'd be like, write a note. Sorry. Can I just write that down? But, no, it's so comfortable now because once you see the power. Of having a difficult conversation, and the reward that comes when someone's like, do you know what, thank you.

Because you always say to me, feedback's like treasure or light. It's a gift. And you start seeing that, and you start seeing people grow, and take dropping egos as well. It's just it's just amazing. And the results that have happened since we created that feedback culture and had those difficult conversations, it's not really a difficult conversation anymore because it just becomes natural.

Yeah. So for you now, that's going forward, you're gonna hit your big trajectory. What where do you need to access either more leadership development or more courage? You're like, I know that this is the next path of my growth as a business owner. What would that be?

You know, it's interesting. I just changed my job description. So every year I give myself a new job description. I'm still the CEO Yeah.

But my job changes every year. And so I gave myself a new job description thanks to Chat GBT. Nice. And I shared it with the team so the team were aware, right, for us to get to the next step, my job's changing again. This is what I where I need to be.

But, actually, I need to be even further away from in the business, and I need to be there to maintain that company culture, to be the face of the business. And that's something that I'm like, oh, do you know? I don't really wanna be the face. I know that I need to be that face of the business and really just be there to support the team and develop them further. Yeah.

I have a leadership team now, and I wanna support the leadership team to grow even further. So as the business grows, I'm gonna be levelling up. I need to make sure the team have all the support they need to level up. So I need to make sure that I'm in that right headspace. To support the team.

And that becomes weird because I'm a doer. Yep. Like, I like to keep busy. But I'm realizing that if I'm a doer and I'm doing loads of random stuff Yep. I get fatigued, and then I can't think or help others.

So now I'm learning to just have to have time where I'm not trying to be manic, trying to achieve a 100 things in a day Yeah. That actually I'm just clear so I'm able to be present for the team Yep. And that's the biggest thing for me right now. I think that thing of presence is what I just think we're all craving Yeah. Is to feel that when someone's with you, they're fully present, and you feel heard, and you feel seen, and you feel like you matter.

Yeah. People listening who listen to your podcast, what would surprise them to know about you? I would say, what would surprise them? We've spoken a lot about self doubt. Those questions that you have, you know?

There's a lot of self doubt that comes, and sleepless nights. As well for me of just questioning, like, wherever you're making the right decisions. Whether you can take things to the next level, whether you can do that. But then it becomes the two different sides. Right?

You've got there's always this battle going on if I've got, oh, can you do this? And then the other person's like, yeah, of course you can do it. You've got that. So I think that's it because a lot of people think I come across confident. Yep.

I come across a strong character, and yeah, I am, and there's reasons. And we spoke about my Costa Rican experience, and even, I've often sort of, you know, I've always really been quite a strong character and strong willed. But I do question myself a 100% a lot of the time. I was gonna say, is that quite consistently the same amount, or is there any times when it's a bit less? When I have too much uncertainty Yeah.

Then I start going into overthinking mode. And that's why the fitness levels me because fitness gives me certainty because I need routine. So when I'm not sure where the business is going and everything's all up in the air, at least I know that I've got to be at this class for 09:30 in the morning, or I know that I've got my boot camp in the evening and everything, and I've got a race to get to and all of that.

That calms me because I also have a lot of noise and voices in my head. I'm an overthinker. And I can spiral myself out. And I've also have a pattern where I I'm an overthinker more when I'm fatigued in the evening. K.

So I've had to learn, as soon as it starts ticking, that's probably the time I need to go to bed. And switch off because there's no that it then becomes Too much. Too much to manage. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

I think it's very good. Because I think so many people think it's just them that going through this, and they and they see big successful people, and they say, oh, okay. It's quite normal. Okay. That's cool.

I can still be successful and still have a bit of self doubt and needing to manage that. So I think the more we normalize that this is what we all go through as entrepreneurs, business owners, podcast hosts. It's very normal. With you know, you've got an incredible story. You are such an inspiration, and I've loved all the time that we've worked together.

When you look back, what's that advice you to pass on to your younger self? I would say don't dim your light. Oh, that's nice. I've been doing a lot of, self reflection recently, and I've realized that I've dimmed the light quite a bit throughout my life, and I think that's just we've spoken about my upbringing, everything, being brought up in a very sort of be humble, you know, humble sort of lifestyle, which is which is great, but sometimes it's like you suppress that because it's almost like you don't want to come across as, oh, I've got this and I've got x. You know, most people don't know Yeah.

Like, the business that I have. Most people don't know the size of the business that I have or the size of the team or any of that. Most people don't even know that I spent eight years in Costa Rica because I'm not forthcoming with, like, oh, did you know x, y, and z? But I've also realized that it's okay to share those stories. And if people think that you're boasting, then let those people think that you're boasting.

Because the only way for people, and as you know, I'm learning through connection, the only people, way people are gonna get to know you is if you do share those things. And if Yeah. Those things seem quite big to some people, they're still they're that's my life. It's your story. It's my story.

Yeah. And it is quite a big story, you know, what I've what I've gone through and the things that I've, you know, my travel experiences and living overseas and that. But that's the key thing is, like, shine, you know, because I read a quote. I think it was a quote the other day and said it's, something about, you know, shine the light, and if peep people wanna blink, let the people blink. Oh, I love that.

Absolutely love that. So and, I also have quotes. I'm always putting quotes on my on my wall. And for those that, you know, are listening and think when you are having those moments of self doubt, I've got quotes everywhere to just remind me where you're at. I think I've even got one what I got at one of your events, the sort of be brave.

Oh, yeah. Yep. Be have courage and all of it. No limits. Yeah.

No limits. And one is, like, she's risen, shine the light. I can't exactly remember, but it's all about I chose me Because it's really important that you just, whatever, even if you're not a business owner and you're listening to this, it's really important to make sure that you look after yourself Yeah. And you do what makes you happy. And you don't spend time worrying about other people.

And that's the whole thing with dimming the light. Right? Is who cares what other people think? Yep. Because they're not living your life.

So it doesn't matter. And I think so much of what we do, and my younger self was, like, worried about what people thought, or I didn't wanna disappoint. But who am I gonna disappoint? The only person I'm disappointed in is myself.

Yep. So that's the biggest thing for me is Lovely. And as a result, we spoke about my daughter. You know, she puts little things of positive words of affirmation on my desk. She even, we have, a thing around, South End where they have, like, they had elephants that you designed, and now they're doing penguins, I think, this year.

And she designed one for her school and it got chosen. And the positive words of affirmation like love yourself and everything Wow. All written across the elephant just came back to that part of she listens. Right? It goes in.

Yep. And that's something that's just it's not that I'm sitting here going, you know, I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but it's so important because had I known that from the start and given myself a little bit more Yeah. Credit and love And turned the light on. And turned the light on.

You know? But, you know, I'm 45 now. My light's on. Yeah. And I think we just go through different chapters.

And so, yeah. Thank you. And all I can say is just keep shining, shining, shining, shining brighter. And it's so wonderful because obviously I've been part of your journey and seeing your growth. To see you sitting here now, owning your story, sitting here telling your story, because I know this is a big moment for you to actually share and tell your story.

And you really putting yourself out there to connect with people and allow people to see you is a very, very special moment. Oh, thank you, Jo. Thank you for doing this today for your for your guests and your audience, and thank you for giving me the absolute honour of being able to interview you. Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for interviewing me. I couldn't think of any better person than yourself because thank you to you for all the work that you've well, how much support you've given me and how we've worked together over the years because I wouldn't be the person that I am today without your support.

You've really helped steer me in the direction. You've given me that understanding of leadership and empathy and everything, and all that has gone into the toolkit to get me where I am today, both professionally and personally as well. So you're an absolute you're like you know, when you think about those key people in your life that have made a change Yeah. You're one of them. Well, that's made my day.

Thank you. Lovely. I'll let you close your podcast. Thank you. It's a lovely note.

So thank you, Jo Thank you. For, interviewing me today, and thank you everybody for listening. And I hope there's something in my story that might inspire some of you, whether you're feeling stuck, you need that change, you've got had a loss of identity, or you're going through a transition in your business. Thank you once again for listening.