Scaling 5Physio from the Ground Up: Dan Nunn on Leadership, Purpose and Letting Go

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod sits down with Dan Nunn, co-founder of 5Physio, to dive into the raw reality of scaling a healthcare business from the ground up while maintaining work-life balance and developing exceptional leadership skills.

Chapters:
[00:40] Introduction to Dan and 5Physio
[02:36] From NHS to Private Practice - The Early Journey
[07:15] The Entrepreneurial Awakening and Self-Awareness
[12:54] Building a Team and Learning to Let Go
[17:22] The Wake-Up Call - Health Crisis and Leadership Lessons
[25:07] From One to Two Clinics - The Biggest Challenge
[28:44] Finding Your Why and Understanding Motivators
[39:53] Competition, Collaboration and Social Media Strategy
[47:42] The Weight of Responsibility and Success Redefined

💡 Topics Covered:
✅ The transition from NHS employment to entrepreneurship and private practice
✅ How a health crisis at 33 became a turning point for leadership and delegation
✅ The importance of self-awareness and finding your "why" in business
✅ Building company culture by understanding individual employee motivators
✅ Scaling from one clinic to multiple locations while maintaining quality
✅ The art of delegation and moving from "in the business" to "on the business"
✅ Balancing the responsibility of payroll and team development
✅ Redefining success beyond financial metrics - family and team growth
✅ Building strategic partnerships with gyms and fitness communities
✅ The power of learning from mistakes rather than following advice

🔥 "I never really had any doubt. I knew it would get there. I didn't know how it would get there, but I knew it would get there."

💡 "You cannot manage or lead people effectively if you can't manage and lead yourself."

🎯 "My perception is, I don't think we overthink. I think that a lot of people might under think."

📌 If you're an entrepreneur struggling with delegation, trying to scale your business, or looking to build a team-first culture while maintaining work-life balance, this episode delivers raw insights and practical wisdom from someone who's been through the trenches.

🔔 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business!

Discover more about 5Physio: https://fivephysio.co.uk/

Follow 5Physio:
https://instagram.com/fivephysio/
https://linkedin.com/company/5physio
https://facebook.com/5physio/

Guest: Dan Nunn from 5Physio
https://linkedin.com/in/daniel-nunn-71680b44/

Host: Carina McLeod from eCommerce Nurse
https://linkedin.com/in/carinamcleod/
https://ecommercenurse.com/

#Entrepreneurship #PhysioBusiness #Leadership #ScalingBusiness #YourMindYourBusiness #HealthcareBusiness #TeamDevelopment #WorkLifeBalance #BusinessPodcast #Entrepreneurs #EntrepreneurPodcast #5Physio #FivePhysio #BusinessGrowth #SelfAwareness #Delegation

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Transcript

So it got to that point where we were doing, 

40 hours a week of hands-on stuff plus all of the other bits.

And, I just started getting all these headaches. I that headache that didn't go for a month.

I was like,

"Oh, I'll go to the GP" 

and, you know, sat there and she's "Oh, okay, let's just check your blood pressure."

And she's sitting there and she looked up, she's "Are you okay?" And I'm,

"yeah... yeah, I'm fine."

And she did not let me leave. My blood pressure was at like 190, over 130. At 33 years old, I was on blood pressure medication,

and it's like, what am I doing?

What do I now need to put in place to change that? 

Welcome to your mind, your business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Karina McLeod, founder and fitness fanatic, and today we have a special guest, Dan from Five Physio.

Welcome Dan.

Thank you for having me. 

you for having me. Super excited to talk to you today.

Okay.

Okay. 

and find out. More about your story. 'cause I'm quite fascinated by, five Physio, just seeing you at so many different events. I'm really interested in your story, but for those that are listening and just tuned in, I guess they're gonna wanna know, first off, who is Dan Today, and then we're gonna hit rewind and find out all about your story right from the very start. Fine,

thanks having me with saying a minute ago that obviously you've met more of five physio staff than you have done me and Yeah. seen part of the, goings ons. But, I'm Dan, I am. Dad of two girls. I am parent of what feels like three physio clinics as well.

with another one on. It feels like we're pregnant with another one, on the way. but yeah, the parallels between the two are the,

 a, pretty strong and yeah, we're in the, midst of a little bit of an expansion kind of, of the company now, and here we are. So yeah, in a nutshell, that's, me today.

Fantastic. And you've just gone down from strength to strength. The fact that, as you say, I love the way you describe it as being a parent. 'cause I'm just giggling internally. 'cause sometimes it does feel, it feels like your baby, but also that responsibility of managing, managing a business.

So you're going, gone, you're now at three, you're going to your fourth, but I'm guessing that hasn't been smooth sailing. So we're gonna go right to the very start. Okay. To then really understand, what got you into five physio and how you even started out.

Yeah, so I right from the start, I graduated from university sort of 14, 15 years ago now. And I,

I,

I've always had, I guess I've always had a mentality of reap what you sow, get out what you put in, that's always been something that sat core really.

when I came outta university, the, normal route was, go into your NHS job. You, start as a junior, you work your way through the bands and, it was just, never for me, the progression wasn't there. You'd, be rewarded in whatever way that reward was for doing a fantastic job to doing a pretty mediocre job, and, you'd get rewarded in the same way.

And that for me was never the case. I knew private practice was always, that was always gonna be the route for me. I. I knew a chiropractic company. I knew a chiropractor in fact, who had a really reputable company and they wanted to extend their existing business. They wanted to put a physio arm onto it as well.

So I took that on and yeah, we had, some, mediocre sort of successes over the years, a few people working for us at times. And, it just got to a point after, after a fairly decent amount of time, it was probably about seven years. I, the, guys that I was working with at the time were great.

We were moving in different directions, I was. Younger, fresher. I, wanted to do all of these things and just felt like I never really had the rains loosened. and they probably weren't in the, they'd done that. They'd been there, done that, and they were moving in a different direction.

left there after seven years, decided to set up what is now five physio. That was in 2018, which was just, it was in a gym. It was in a virgin active, and again, it was moving in the right direction. everything was, going smoothly. A couple of people working for us. And, it was probably about 18 months after that, obviously that COVID hit so Sharp shop.

At the time we had a six month old as well, and my daughter, who was six months at home, so I got three months at home with her, just every day. so yeah. And then hunkered down in a. When everything reopened, hunkered down into a, my mother-in-law's summer house actually for, a year while we were trying to get everything built.

And my business partner Kane, he'd very selfishly gone over to the Middle East for seven years and we always said, look, if the moon's aligned, if we're in the same place at the same time, let's, give this a go. So he came back and we opened up the first site in Hadley, just the two of us.

And three years later we've got, we had a team of nearly 30 and yeah. And then trying to work out how do we do this next kind of stage of progression And yeah, loved every bit of it, plus the challenges that came with it as well. yeah,

I can imagine. And congratulations.

'cause I think that's, amazing that you got from, just, in general, just. Building, building it up to then having your own business. It's, not something that's, happens overnight, which you can, hear in terms of those years that you've gained that experience. Did you ever think, like, when you finished uni and you went into the n started off in the NHS, did you ever think that you were naturally had that entrepreneurial mindset?

I'll be honest, if you'd asked me that question five years ago, I'd given a very different answer. Now looking back. Yeah. but whatever that is, I, I don't know. I know loads of people have this weird relationship with that whole entrepreneurial thing and I think it, 'cause it means such different things to different people.

And for me it was, there was something there, there was something, and it might be that it was that reap what you sow that, that get out what you put in mentality. It might be, I'm not shy of a bit of graft. If I've gotta do 60 hours a week, I'm gonna do 60 hours a week. that, I guess in a sense.

Then you go, oh, that's a, that's entrepreneurship. So I think looking back now, I did have it, I just needed to tap into something a little bit more.

and

properly work it out for myself before before I could offer it out to anybody else. And that experience probably, that was probably fire physio was already a thing when that happened.

I was just ticking along doing probably what I was doing for the previous seven years. And something changed and that something was a, proper understanding of that question. it was a proper understanding of what is it, what, is that thing? And if I can tap into that and understand it myself, I can absolutely help other people.

And, 

and realizing that then allowed me to scale what we're doing now. 'cause ultimately there's no way I could do it without other people, I, couldn't do it on my own. But if you'd asked me five years ago, I'd have gone, I could do this on my 

own. Yeah. 

but totally different, responses.

I love that. it's like a kind of complete shift in mindset. And belief because there is that change of Oh yeah, I can do it on my own, versus actually I need a team to make this happen because I know that there's some something there.

Yeah. So you end up, and I like the way you say with your business partner, it, aligns and then you're like, we're gonna set up our own, own, place. What went through your mind there? Like how did you feel when you're like, ' cause I guess there's an, a level of investment financially

as

well to do that. Do

terms of like with him, with the, business partner?

Yeah.

Or just in general, how you, yeah. How you felt when you were about to take that step. So this is.

this will come across as probably one of the most arrogant things I'll say within the next 45 minutes. And, it,

I never really had any doubt. I, knew it would get there. I didn't know how it would get there, but I knew it would get there.

'cause for me, there was never a, there was never another way, there was never another option for me. It was like, I, can, I know what we are trying to do, we will get there. Whatever the challenges are that come up, I'm a problem solver. My business partner, Kane's a problem solver, We will clash heads, we will work it out and we'll, get through the other side.

So I never really had any doubts as such. I

be honest, I didn't know what I'd let myself in for that. for sure. You know, I, didn't know, I'd say to anyone now, whatever your expectation is, double it. if you think whatever the finances is, whatever you feel like it's gonna take out of your time wise, wether you feel like it's gonna take out of you health wise, double it.

'cause if and if you do it right, I think it should in a way. I think it, I honestly think that business is a very good filtering process for people, and, it's that, that crazy stat, I think it's someone that 60% of businesses don't work out after three years. They fail after three years.

And I totally see why. I totally get that. And I think it's, I, think. By design. It's meant to test you. It's meant to do all of those things. And if you can come out the other side of it, then, you're in the clear then, and that's, where we are now. So right at the beginning, yeah.

I didn't necessarily have any doubts. I, had 100 and still hold 100% in every decision he makes, he holds 100% in every decision I make. I have my role. He has his role and the, reason, and ultimately I guess this kind of comes into why I didn't think it would necessarily fail. I, thought it'd be a challenge, but my weaknesses of which I have many are what he's phenomenally strong at, and his weaknesses that he has, I'm strong at.

So I lean into my stuff. Again, it's, that sounds really good. Now, that definitely wasn't how, that's the lesson that we've learned, and probably more so me. probably one control freak talking to another. I'd the one that veered into his lane, and I'd be the one dipping in and I'd get a nudge as if to say, no, this is mine.

Get out, get outta my lane. And, that's how it works. The moment there starts being that crossover, that's the recipe for disaster. And we've learned this kind of over the years. So Yeah.

I love that. And you say it's tapping into arrogance, but actually it's self-belief,

right? 

yeah.

Of knowing that actually no matter what. We are gonna do it. And that is the part that you almost say of that gets you to X because, I don't care what comes in front of me, we are gonna get through it. Yeah. And that, I think is a real separation, like between what it takes to really run a business and run a business long term.

Yeah, definitely. and I've had this throughout life, I've, had, when I, really look back to when I was a kid, I'd, I, would be called cocky, and mum would always have this like, mum would always have this, she'd be like, he's not cocky, he's confident. and people would almost be like, oh yeah, you're just trying to, you're just trying to, paper over the fact that he's just a cocky little so and but it never was, I never, the people that really know me, I, they know I'm not, they know I'm not.

But ultimately is that level of confidence or for me what it is, unwaveringly is self-awareness. That, that, for me is the biggest thing. That was that kind of, I guess that was that experience I had a couple of years ago where it was like, oh my, this is, now. This is now the change. And it was really interesting listening to you sitting in this chair with Joe and, and you talk, you spoke about the same thing that happened to you.

You had that same experience and I've got no doubt that, arguably it probably had such benefits to not you as an individual, it had benefits to your company, to its turnover, to your staff, to your family, to your to absolutely everything, and like I say, having that 

experience and arguably understanding it and using it has been, powerful in my opinion.

A hundred percent. Definitely. so you get your own, you've got your own place in Hadley and then you say it's you and Kane, you start employing people.

 How did that feel at the start? 

it felt. Harder than I thought it would be, because we had some, really quick successes.

he and I have got lots of experience, we've done this. he was leading up a team in Dubai for seven years. he's one of the best physios and one of the best blokes that you're ever gonna meet in your life, right? And so having that joint level of experience and, him knowing what he needs to do, and me fully understanding what I need to do, we, had that kind of, that, that quick success.

So we thought, oh, perfect. We're gonna shove out a, we're gonna put out an advert on Indeed. We're gonna, we're gonna, we'll just put one social media post and watch the CVS flood in and nothing happened. absolutely nothing happened. I found myself. I found myself messaging, physios.

Yeah. Going, did you fancy your job? And it wasn't until, there's, loads of physios out there, and our success has never been in what we're doing. I've always said that it's not what we're doing. it's how we're doing it. And yeah, I was expecting CV after CV and nothing happened.

So we had to really grow through it. And I think ultimately what, the reason was as far as anyone was concerned, we're just another physio clinic. we're just another one shop wonder. We're doing the same as everybody else. Then we opened the second site and we started to get a few more people.

I think there was just this interpretation from people, okay, that's, not the normal round here. most places don't necessarily have multi-site. 

And 

then we opened the third one and. All of a sudden we are getting CVS thrown at us before we've even put job offers out. And I, and again, I think it's that attraction that people start to, to relate to, and they, start to see it a little bit more.

And that became a lot easier. I will say, bringing more people on as a control freak was hard, And the, the, some of, the first people that we brought on board, they're still with us now. they're, Susie, who's head of our admin team, she's, head of reception. I was a nightmare. Honestly. I was an absolute nightmare. And I was micromanaging, I was looking over the top of shoulders, if I could hear the phone going, I'd be in the treatment room. And I, but if the phone rang more than three or four times, 

I pop my head around the corner.

And, of course she's already on the phone to someone else, But for me to let go was really, tough. And, I think. I think that's an experience that most business owners will go through. you and because you have to, because if I had that same mindset now as I had then I, probably wouldn't be sitting here now.

I wouldn't have the three clinics. I would, we wouldn't retain staff. So when you have to have, in my opinion, you have to have a level of control. You have to be a bit of a control freak. But it was very much, I looked at it and, the reason that we are control freaks is because we trust ourselves 100%.

We a hundred percent trust ourselves and so much so that we trust ourselves to do a better job than anyone else. If we completely honest, We trust ourselves to do, anything. And it, I then realised that actually, if I truly trust myself. I have to trust that I've picked the right person,

 right for the right role.

'cause indirectly, if I am micromanaging, what I'm basically saying is I don't trust myself. And that didn't align. You know, that didn't kind of sit right. So it forced me to take a backseat, which then made that person thrive. Because you're not going to get anything standing over the top of them. You're not gonna get anything micromanaging.

So when I took a step back, watched them thrive, it's yeah, what am I doing? And again, that was where I just, 

started delegating. Yeah. and, so much so it feels like tennis, something hits my desk and I'm like, Nope. nope. that's not for me. That person's far better suited for that job.

This person's far better. And, that creates a, that's what helps progress. It doesn't just help progress for the business, it helps progress for them as well. And, I think that's a massive thing that I've tapped into is, Put the best in front of people. And by micromanaging and being a control freak, you just never could.

You never could. yeah.

And what was it that made you realise that you were micromanaging?

Because I'm guessing, like we, we spoke about

got a slap. You got no. I got a proverbial get out, and that's, and, yeah, that, that was part of it. I definitely started to get some pushbacks.

and I, and, I've got a wicked team. we, genuinely have, we have a real open door policy, and I think most of the time if you say you've got an open door policy, it means you haven't got an open door policy. if you say, oh, you can trust me, the chances are you can't trust that person.

but we do have an open door policy, and the staff are well aware that there's nothing you can say that'll offend. Because I love the challenges. I love, the difficult stuff because I'll only do it once, I will only do that thing once. when. 

You hear people talking about, managing people.

It's the worst thing. I love it. I love managing people, but we've got wicked people, and they're the, main reason, why we are where we are, is that the people that sit in there. Yeah. yeah. So there was definitely a little bit of that. There was, definitely some pushback, I think, because we had that culture where they could say, get out. I was like, okay, fine. And that was one part of it.

And I guess when you've got three sites, and how many team members do you have in total

So we have close to 30.

close to 30. Close to 30. which is definitely a lot manage in many of different ways. There comes a point where you don't have enough time, like, you said at the start, like first you think you can do everything, but actually you start realizing that there's just not enough time in the 

day. Yeah.

Yeah. A hundred percent. And again, that's where you have to put your trust into people, but you, again, indirectly, you're putting the trust in yourself. because. Look, I'm a massive audio book listener.

I, love a podcast. I love an audio book. I take stuff, I digest stuff, I use stuff. And, one thing, one thing I read is that, look, no one's gonna do a hundred percent of what you do, but somebody else is, 80% of your a hundred is wicked. and then I guess just started experiencing it.

I just started letting people loose. And I'm like, they're thriving. And, then you'll see people start making mistakes and, you're about to jump in and no. 'cause if I'm gonna elicit a bit of a behaviour change here, you've got to see it. You've got to make those same mistakes that I made.

I can't fix it for you, because then you're just gonna do the same thing again. And my premise has always been, we never, fail. We learn. And that's why I, love the challenges. I love the difficult stuff because again, it. I get better at it, and if I get better at it, I can then teach that they get better at it.

They can teach that that, for me is where the, strengths really, come in.

I love that because it's so true about what you say about staff of the a hundred percent and the 80% and not wanting to jump in, but realizing, you can't jump in. It is almost like how, it is with, bringing up your kids, right? You've got to let everybody figure it out for themselves.

You strike me as somebody that, as you said, you love a challenge, that's got this real sort of go-getter, approach. Does your mind ever switch off?

No. No. Never. Never. And, 

I

and I can probably imagine that again.

One overthinker to another, but again, by design, I think, most, business owners, most entrepreneurs, you are, because you think about absolutely every scenario, which if people ask me now, what's your biggest weakness? I'll say my overthinking. And then they say to me, what's your biggest strength?

I'll say, it's my overthinking. because it's, the reason we are where we are is because of my overthinking. But the reason that I can't sleep at night and I'm thinking about something while I'm reading my kid, her, while I'm reading my daughter, her bedtime story, I'm still thinking about something.

I'm not present in the book, is because of my overthinking as well. But, again, I've got a real theory around that. I, my perception is, I, don't think we overthink. I think that a lot of people might under think, and, because I, if you don't, o overthinking for me is a real power when you harness it.

Because. 

You 

can use it to your advantage. You can get yourself out of any situation. That's what I've always done, is that I love the challenges because I'll think our way out of it. I'm, a problem solver. Kane's a problem solver. We will, find out a way to get through it because we will come up with every single scenario.

Now, it means that you get from A to B and don't tell people how you get from A to B. I think that's a real, my communication is really one of my, my, one of my, poor qualities. Yeah. And there'll be, if they listen, there'll be staff going, yeah. Hang. Absolutely. Yeah. Bang on, because I will, I'll just get there.

Without necessarily bringing people along that journey. And that's something even still I'm working on. but yeah, so my mind never switches off, it never switches off. It's my, my, my wife, we, my wife did this a little while ago. I was daydreaming. I was literally, I was just staring out into space and, she went, what, were you thinking about?

about?

 Terrible. Half hour later, I'm still telling her, I'm, still explaining what was going through my head. And a couple of days later she's sitting there, she's doing the same. And I'm like, what are you thinking about? She's oh, nothing. I was like, no, When you are, like, when you're sitting there, what, what's going through your mind?

And she's nothing. And I'm like,

I've

I've never had that and I'd love that. Do you know what I mean? I've never experienced that. Yeah. which is the reason that me and her, one of many reasons why me and her work so well. So Yeah. But never switch off.

and I can completely relate to that.

And some of the things that you've said, I've like I've I almost want a notepad to write that down. Like the under thinking and overthinking because it is my strength and my weakness as well. And I have a battle with it every day. Every When I'm sleeping or just constantly.

Yeah. do you, like you, you've got the, work side of things. You've got your family. What else do you do to help you almost, not necessarily stop the overthinking? Yeah. But just to separate things from, work.

I'd say there never is a separation because I would say when I have to separate it, if, when I have to separate the overthinking from the work, I almost have to use the overthinking.

Yeah.

So my, I've got a golden retriever Colin now. Me and Colin, we have an hour in the woods every day. And that is my sanctuary, That is my bit where I go to, I'll say to my wife, I need to give my head a wobble, and I'll go for an hour, 

maybe 

I won't listen to an audio book that day. I won't have a podcasting or anything like that.

It's no, I need to be with my thoughts, work it out, put it straight, and then go. And the kids would be like, oh daddy, can we, come on your walk today? I'm absolutely not. 

Not a chance. 

When I get back, we'll go for another one, but I'll have this walk and then we'll go. So I think, I don't necessarily think there is ever a separation, but again, I, think it's because, I use it, it's a, real powerful thing.

If, you really harness it and you can use it for your benefit, it's strong. Whereas I think it's always been perceived as a detriment. and I couldn't, I couldn't disagree more. It is if you let it But if you use it and you really understand it it can be really, it can be really useful.

Yeah, a hundred percent. And so you've got, as you said, you're at, you're gonna expand into your foresight. If you go and reflect back on that journey, what would you say is the biggest challenge that's just knocked you potentially more than you ever foresaw?

I'd say. the biggest challenge was when we went from one to two when we opened up our second site.

that was by far the biggest, that was the biggest kind of business challenge in a sense, and a bit of a personal one as well, because I think to, start the business, you've gotta be in it.

Yep. 

And you've gotta be in that business. And I think there's a real kind of transition point that you either get to or you don't.

And I'd argue that the 60% of businesses, that fail after the first three years, maybe, this is just a theory. Those people don't necessarily make that transition of in the business to under business. they kind keep themselves in it and then that's not scalable. You start making mistakes, you start getting stressed and then, the rest is the end.

But we, we were still physios, Kane and I were still physios, we were still doing our day job. 'cause it's what we love yet we were painting, we were put, we were putting up. plaster boards we're treating backs, we're taking the kids out. 'cause that was a non-negotiable for both of us.

It's the one thing that is not gonna suffer here is family. I'm not prepared to, for one day look at sacrificing the time spent with the kids. I'd rather see the business slow or stagnate than see it affect the relationship I have with, my wife and kids. So it got to that point where we were doing, 40 hours a week of hands-on stuff plus all of the other bits.

And, I started getting, I just started getting all these headaches. I started, really like, that headache that didn't go for a month. I was like, oh, I'll go to the GP and, you know, sat there and she's oh, okay, let's just check your blood pressure.

And she's sitting there and she looked up, she's are you okay? And I'm, yeah. Yeah, I'm fine. And she did not let me leave. My blood pressure was at like 190, over 130 It was something, but I, was fine. And I'm not saying this as a sob story, but At 33 years old, I was on blood pressure medication, and it's like, what am I doing?

But again, it was like,

great,

because I now know the signs. And I'm gonna stay on this blood pressure medication for, I think it's like a week or something like that. And I'm like, I'm gonna use this to get myself out of it. What do I now need to put in place to change that? And, my wife would be the first one that she was massively concerned.

Really, concerned. she's always had unw un unwavering faith in what I'm doing and, trust in what I'm doing. But it was like, look, I know where this is going. I know what I need to do. Trust me. And I will get there. And she'll be the one first ones to hear that probably she didn't.

Believe it at the time. 'cause it was quite bad. But we're there, and I've probably been, this is probably the le the, least stressed I've been, but the most five physios ever had.

Yeah.

that makes sense. I feel as the, company's growing, my stress is diminishing, my workload is getting a little bit less.

And ultimately I'm, for me it's, how can I make myself redundant to this place? Yeah. How can I, and I can't do that without people. Yeah. yeah.

that's really interesting. And I like the way that you look at that though in terms of, that was a learning, And that was a pivotal moment, I guess from that point of when you learn to delegate, was that p was it, 'cause you mentioned at the start 

about that.

Yeah. 

Yeah, it was, and for me it was more, 

I, 

I, and I don't, I, genuinely dunno what it was, but it was the day I, and this is gonna sound really fluffy, but it is the day I properly worked out my why.

The day I sat there and I went, what is my why? And something, and I can't tell you what it is. It might have been a conversation I had with someone. It's probably my mum. It's probably a conversation I had there, but it, something clicked and it might have even been, I think we might have even been talking about like motivators and, you know what really gets people going?

I was like, oh, I actually don't really know mine, and I don't think many people truly do. I think if you really tap into it, I genuinely don't think many people do. But having that sort of level of self-awareness, I've realised and, everything fell into place. Yeah. That everything I was like, because my, my, my motivator now is I found out at that time is growth and development.

I love it. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh my God, it's. It's so transferrable in, in everything. I love watching. It's probably the reason I got into physio. I love watching people get better. I love watching our staff develop, when, we take them on as real fresh, some new grads, and I look at 'em six months later and I'm like, oh, I'd put you up against any senior physio in the NHS and you'll walk all over 'em.

I love that. I've got mates of mine who, they don't want their kids to grow up. They love 'em as they are the age now. And I'm like, oh, no. I love watching them. I love watching them do the next thing. And, I'm excited for where they're gonna go. Yes. I, they are absolute, I, they are lovely as they are.

I can't wait to see what, so all of a sudden it, it made sense. And not just what we're doing, it's what I've done. Yeah. and, then having that meant I could then do it for someone else. Because I do think without that, I genuinely believe that any manager or any leader, you cannot manage or lead people effectively. If you can't manage and lead yourself. Yeah. that level of self-awareness. And I didn't have that. I didn't have that. And I was probably, in, at times I was putting square pegs in round holes. And I was asking stuff of people and they're just saying Yes, because it's me asking.

Yep. 

And they weren't thriving. I'm like, why is that not happening? and again, even then it just ticked. It was like, that's not where they're best suited. And the moment I, then sussed out for each individual, that's one of my big, one of my main jobs is I find out what makes you tick.

'cause I'm gonna put that in front of you because if you are happy in your job That's gonna translate over to your patient, that's gonna translate into your team. that I'm as much of a, I call myself like a, cultural architect at times. 'cause you build it, but you can't do that if you are giving people stuff that they don't really wanna do.

Stuff that doesn't make them thrive. And I don't think enough managers or leaders necessarily have that. Ability themselves to lead others. and I, think that most, you look at big organizations, big conglomerates and stuff like that, I think that management is passed on to people through tenure.

Yep. it's just passed on to people through, time that they've been at a company. 

And

I can't see that. I can't see why or how that works. The only thing I can think is that, if you were to put people's motivators in a, ask them to actually put them down in a list, I think that money and finance, 'cause I've got people who time is their motivator.

Yeah. Status is their motivator. being part of a team is their motivator. Success is their 

motivator. 

don't think anyone, maybe, a couple is financially and I, think for most people you'd say, what is your motivator? And guys money. It's not. Yeah, it's once you really tap into, you go, it's absolutely not.

But for big organizations, if you put people's top five, finances would sit in there, but it might be four or five. It might be three or four. So what big organizations do is they'll say, okay, we need literally biggest bang for buck. Money sits on every single one of them, pay rise and bonus.

April comes round. That's what motivates our staff for a day. Do you know what I mean? By the time they've taken out that new gym membership or they've got the new car, yeah. They set you back onto, you're back onto next year. And I think genuinely you'd have happier staff with better environments if you actually 

put. 

People's motivator right in front of 

them. A hundred 

percent. And if you, and, it would save you money. Yeah. You'd have a better culture. It is a hundred percent the thing that's made us thrive. Yeah. And that was the, that for me was the turning point. And that's something that is integral to, to, what we do now, is I'll find what works for you.

Yeah. And I'll try and make that, I'll try and make that happen.

Which is fascinating. 'cause it's the 'cause that's, I can see that as well, that, that sort of stands out when you meet different members of your team that they enjoy what they do, they love what they do, and they're proud, to work for five physio, which is something you've obviously done a great job in building that culture, which is great.

And the leadership

But in fairness, I, will say that only comes down to them as well, that only comes down to them. You can, you lead a horse to water. Do you know what I mean? And, they'll, choose whether they decide, so we are, we've got very good at recruiting.

Yeah. And.

We

can always see that, in that interview process. we've had phenomenally, reputable, experienced physios sit in front of us, and me and Kane are like, no. It, it's just not gonna work. But we've got fresh new grads that were like, you've got that thing. Yeah. So you, are gonna work.

So in fairness, as much as we've worked hard on it that, that, it's only because they're receptive. Yeah. It's only 'cause they're receptive to it. Yeah.

And that's great. And it's great that you see it in, in from both sides as well. And I'm guessing, like you say, you like listen to a lot of podcasts.

You like audio books and everything because you, you went to uni, you did physio, you studied physio at, university. You've got a huge amount of business acumen there. Like how did you get, if people are listening, they're probably like, wow, all this, all these learnings that you've got, it's like you, how did you learn all of that to just be able to have the business that you have today?

You mentioned about leadership. There's so many other things, Involved in managing a business.

I, think messing up genuinely. I think getting it wrong is huge. but getting it wrong once, 

I, hold myself 

so accountable. 'cause you're right, there's so many different, we, could talk for hours about this is vulnerability, it's accountability, it's responsibility, all of these kind of buzzwords that, that, 

that 

encompass a, an entrepreneur, or, a business owner, whatever.

But I think the biggest thing is making mistakes and learning from 'em. Because I have, I'm still doing it now, I'm still making mistakes. Luckily the mistakes are smaller and they're less impactful. But they're still there. And I will, that, 

that's, 

I won't just reflect, I, even won't reflect on just the bad, I think when we have successes. It's very much, oh, that worked and 

that's it. 

Whereas for me, when I, when we sit as nurse, like a senior leadership team, that's item one. What have you done? what's worked now? Why, did it work? All right. And let's look at that in as much detail as we look at the stuff that maybe didn't go quite as well.

So that success becomes a learning opportunity as well as the failures. And, it is, it's that whole, I've said it before, it's that whole, you never fail. You only learn, but that's only true if you properly learn. So I think, again, it's that whole, I think there was something innately in there.

There was something innately in me. I'm, 

I, 

will say I've always been good with people. I like to think I've always been good with people and that ability allowed me to. Let this stuff 

loose. 

that, that allowed me the opportunity to trial, to test, to do all those things and to learn.

And then naturally over time, it takes a long time, but naturally you just get a bit better at those, things. 

it's interesting, you mentioned earlier about there's this communication piece like that you've got this bit in the middle and you know that you've gotta get there and you get there. But sometimes you said you didn't share all 

of

that. no. And that was, and that's something I'm still working on, and, because I can go, a hundred mile an hour, and, but again, it's another part of the reason why, you know, me and my wife and me and my work wife Kane, is why we work, because both of them are very good at putting the reins on when they need to.

and, I, might, come out of a really random, like big, like audacious goal and. Lucy and Kane will be like, oh no, come on. Reign you back in. Let, and, then it's oh, okay, yeah, fine, I'll curb that for the moment. yeah, again, having that in my life is, really important.

I admire anyone that does it on their own and, it baffles me. It absolutely baffles me at time. we were talking before this, that you don't really get these opportunities, you don't get a chance to, bounce ideas back and forth with someone else. And I'm so fortunate I've got that, I've, got that in someone that I a hundred percent trust from a business perspective and, a life like, like I say, I, trust him like with absolutely anything.

But we get an opportunity to do that on a daily basis, which makes it easier. And I think that's probably part of the reason that we've had the quick success that we've had. and arguably the, Not, necessarily just the quick success, but the sustainable success. the, I think when people look at how quickly clinics have grown and developed, you think, oh, just stop popping them up, all over the place.

And it's no, that's not our model. Our model is that we build something that we can walk away from, because our culture, our ethos is embedded in that. Yeah. In that premises is DNA that we don't have to be part of it? Because I've got a great leadership team, I've got great team leads, I've got great staff.

Our, receptionist, our admin staff are just some of the best people that you are gonna meet. and that for me is, 

that, that's a huge, factor as to, why it works.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that, as you say, just being able to, have different people that you can then lean onto, lean into is, is so important.

And, you stand out from other physios and if we look at social media 

and Competition, 

There's obviously, as you mentioned, there's people around the corner doing, trying to do something similar and you get copycats and that, how do you make sure that you don't get distracted and you effectively stay in your lane when, especially with social media as it is

today? Yeah, I 

think we, we, do have set standards, and we, don't, I don't, I like to think we don't ask a huge amount from the guys that'd all be sitting there going, he's talking nonsense now, but I'd like to think we don't ask a huge amount from them, but, look, 

I 

think 

competition is so good.

Being aware of competition is so good, and

and

 can 

will, 

he'll be the first one to say, I know what every other physio's diary's I'll be I because, I will be, I'll know how busy they are. Yeah. and I know how well each competitor is doing. and I think that's part of my job.

that's part of my role. I need, I need to, but I think it is so healthy. I think it's so healthy. It keeps you on your toes. It doesn't let you get complacent, and I think the moment that you, almost start to supersede the competition, that's the first time, which is oh, okay, we can take a foot off.

And I'm like, no, that, that's not in our DNA, that's not our core value. 

We, 

by nature, I think we 

end up 

getting that anyway 

with, 

things 

like 

our reputation. 95% of our work is all word of mouth. we are probably, we're very unique in our industry that we don't do a lot of insurance work.

And that's because I don't wanna do a lot of insurance. Most physios will put their name out to insurance companies, private medical insurance companies, and they'll say, oh, send all your patients to us. Which the private medical companies will, abide. but when we started this, it was like, I don't 

wanna 

that.

I wanna treat people like You I want, fit healthy people who are interested in fitness, who, athletes. I love treating athletes, so I'm gonna make it like that. I'm gonna make the business 

that, 

and if there's anything that I can't or don't wanna do, I can't ask any of our, any of five physio staff to do it.

So I think by doing that, it looks after itself a little bit. I will say it didn't, and there, there will be, and it's there for everyone to see at the start. You go down to our first couple of posts and there's a really wooden, hi, I'm Dan from Phi Physio. Thanks for, and it's, so not us, but naturally.

As time progressed, again, we learned, we worked out what worked and what didn't, and it becomes very organic. So I don't think it's a challenge anymore because it's, quite real, it is quite real that what is a real true reflection of who we are. It's not fabricated, we, the guys will be the first to tell you that we, what, is what you get.

Yeah. we keep our promises. If we're gonna make a promise to you, we, will absolutely keep it. and I think that trust that sits within the company again means that we get good people that wanna stay, that I wanna progress because that whole development thing for me is so important. Yeah. I wanna see you grow.

I'm so excited to see that this next part of the venture, one of our members of staff is he's gonna have one of his own five physio clinics. And I'm so excited for him because he would, that's what he's always wanted to do. He's never been able to do it. And in fairness, him two years ago. He wouldn't have been able to do it.

He'll be the first one to admit. Whereas now because he is been receptive, because he is taken on the learning, he's gonna fly. And that to me is, that's what gets me going. that's what I, love, to see it. yeah.

And you can see that with your passion for developing people, but also you're great at developing collaborations like with other, gyms and everything. Because we've seemed to cross paths in many different ways from different clubs and different, 

I know the same people.

Exactly. but I'm guessing that wasn't the easiest at the start. 'cause people could be probably thinking, oh, I go to all these events and I always see five physio, but I'm guessing that first time and that first knock on the door Yeah. Wasn't as easy as it is now.

No. Not at all. No. and again, it's that whole overnight success. Success that's been brewing for 15 years, that I used to do that. Years ago, and again, because I ha I've always had that, thing with people, I've always been good with people. I can connect with gym owners and, I've always said that the demographic that we want to treat are the demographic that are at the events that you're talking about.

So we have to get ourselves in front of these people and then we have to prove it. Yes. Because I won't be the only physio knocking on doors. But around, particularly kind of Essex, where we are in the outskirts of London. Now I can imagine if you're another physio phoning up saying, oh, have you got someone that you work with?

Yeah. We work with five because we've, we probably look after somewhere in the region of 50 CrossFit boxes, commercial gyms, F 45, like functional fitness spaces. We've got loads that we look after and the owners come in, they see it. It is different. there's no two ways about it. I will, confidently say that it is.

Totally different to what people have experienced before for the better. we love biomechanics, and, I'm a, we are a big, I'm a big marginal gains guy. I'm a big 1% theory. And, you are in that category as well, right? If you wanna knock 30 seconds off of your 5K, that's a massive number to you, right?

That's a, big chunk that you wanna knock off. and I'll find ways to do it because I'm like, I'm gonna functionally make you that little bit better than you were yesterday, so you are gonna achieve. And again, it falls into that whole development, that growth, that, that, thing that I'm passionate about.

so yeah, that's, always been part of the model because yeah, we love it, and in fact, in fairness, like actually loads of our guys do now as well, Yep. we had two of our, two of our, two of our guys. Came third. Yep. At Turf Games, and now all of a sudden everyone's getting involved in High Rocks.

they're doing a little bit of, they're all starting to threaten, putting a five physio team in. And I'm like, yeah, I'll, be there from the sidelines, I'll be there to massage afterwards sort of thing. and because in my opinion, you come into a physio and you might say that, I get this pain when I'm, cleaning a bar.

The worst thing is if that physio is what's, what's cleaning and what's cleaning the bar? Whereas for me it's no, We will understand your sport better than you understand it. Yeah. Could not do it at the level that you do it ever, but I will understand it from a biomechanical standpoint.

So I can go, okay, so that's happening then. this is changing, this is what we need to work on. And that very quick, rather than trying to suss out, it's no, now, I know what it is. 

our, 

our, training sessions are very active. We did a hiroc, we did a 45 minute hiroc session a couple of weeks ago, and it absolutely ruined me. absolutely ruined me, but I, it ruined everyone else. But I want you to feel what that person's coming in with. I want you to experience it. Yeah. Yeah. Because that empathy that you'll then have, that another buzzword that, again, we could talk about it for hours, but that empathy that you're now gonna have is absolutely gonna translate into the person that's sitting in front of you.

Yeah. And then that trust develops and all of a sudden it's Oh, this is the person I need to see, whoever it is. and I'll, stand by that. any of our guys, obviously you've experienced it, they're wicked. Yeah. so if they're as passionate about that as I am about 

this, 

that's gonna, that's gonna translate into the, over to the person that's sitting in front of you.

Definitely. And I love You've mentioned people means a lot to you. But having people also means a big responsibility As well, with payroll and everything. And you always want the business to grow. And it's almost like you want the business to grow, to give the opportunities As well, so you can maintain or retain your, staff. Do you have, we talked about overthinking and sleepless nights. Oh, I think we touched 

on 

sleepless Yeah. Yeah. 

from the overthinking, but do you have sleepless nights or anything more from that, responsibility or weight that sits on your shoulders as a business owner?

A

A hundred percent. Firstly, I'll be honest, I don't, I've never looked at myself as. Business owner. I use the word I don't see it like that, but I see myself as, I, I basically work for five physio. That's how I've always seen it. I, very rarely, I've probably said it a few times here, but maybe for effect, I don't see it like that.

I work for five physio, but I have full accountability. Probably too much at times. I think it's fair to say that I'll probably be, over the years I've had too much accountability. But, I'll have a, for if a patient, luckily we don't, we genuinely don't get many of them.

But if we have a patient complaint, it might be in a clinic that I've not been to for a couple of weeks, or it might be, it's with a, it's with someone that, because of diaries, I just don't see them. But if a patient has a complaint against another member of staff, that's on me immediately.

I take that personally because I've either not trained that person correctly. I've not instilled what we need to instill there. I, never point fingers out I, I'll always say, no, that's on me. what can I do to change that? And yeah, so I have, I feel a huge, amount of responsibility and accountability and yeah, again, that's, I think as much to a, as much to a strength as is a, detriment as well.

yeah.

And does that, impacts your weekends and just that, that, that ability to be present?

Yeah. it does. and is something that, I, I, talk to our senior leadership team about, and it's look, when it goes wrong, it's your fault. But when it goes right, that is absolutely your fault as well, right?

So you get as much of the credit as you do. Yeah. For the negative stuff as well. that's the bit we can't forget is like when it goes wrong, that's you. But when it goes absolutely right, that's all you as well. And, I think naturally over the years. You get more of one than you do the 

other.

You get more of the, that's wicked. Yeah. and you thrive off of that, so I 

guess 

without just sitting there saying, oh, we just get better and better. we, genuinely do. So actually the, successes become greater as the failures become less. Which means that whole taking over your weekends.

Yeah. I genuinely, I don't have that as much anymore. Yeah. I miss one bedtime every two weeks now, and that's it. I'm there for every, I'm there for every bedtime, 

for, 

for the kids and that's, yeah. And because I'm as a, I'm more accountable Yeah. For them.

Yeah. I'm, as, I'm more accountable to them as than I'm the business. I'm as accountable. I dunno, but I am fully accountable to my family as well.

well, and I love that. I love that, that you've got very, clear boundaries there, which is definitely something that's really important.

And, before we wrap up, it's been fascinating hearing your journey because there's really been, like you've touched, tapped on a lot of leadership, but also personal growth, and you've got really strong self-awareness. If you were to go back to the start and speak to Dan, it's just about to open up Hadley. Yeah. Yeah. Is there any sort of different piece of advice or advice that you would give him to do things differently?

Genuinely, 

I wouldn't say a word. Of all the things that I am best at now are the stuff that I've lived, experienced, messed up and learned from. All the stuff that I'm bad at is probably the stuff where I've just followed advice.

Because it doesn't mean anything. I, don't live it. I don't get to know, you know, why does that, matter? 'cause if I just follow someone's word for 

it, 

I'm never gonna get that growth. I'm never gonna get that matter. Do you know? and so, actually. I, generally, I 

wouldn't, 

no, I wouldn't say a 

thing.

I that.

Yeah. I wouldn't say a word.

I love that because that just really highlights the whole importance of that journey. A journey with no regrets, because you learn from those experiences. And I guess your whole journey has been about learning and not always getting it right, but being able to put your hands up that.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. and, take the successes, never, don't, I've, never not taken the successes on as well. I talk about success and stuff like that. Obviously it means very different things to different people. And mine is, mine's, 

always, 

I've got two things that sort of encapsulate that, quite nicely as to, and, The first one, actually, I told him this the other day. I've never, told him. And I've, I actually don't think I've really told anyone. I think I've probably told one other person this as well. But the first bit is, the thing that makes it successful is the day our first physio, who still works with us now, the day he got his mortgage and he got his keys to his first house, that 

was 

wicked.

I, not, I cried. I had a little tear. 'cause that, that for me was, everything. And then the second thing is when my kids wake up over nighttime, they still call daddy

When

they hurt themselves and they bang their knee. It's daddy. And, that for me is the two successes.

I've been able to, do that for someone else, that they can grow and develop and get their first house. And the kids still want me. That for me, they're my, two big ones.

I absolutely love that because. There's so many things there, right? you've been able to create a business from scratch that's successful now that you are in three locations going into your fourth, which to a lot of people listening, they'll be like, that's the success.

But actually then we start going into other parts. Whereas success for you is what you've been able to give back to people being able to have a job where they can get a mortgage or a job where they've seen that growth and they can then go and run the next site. seeing that growth and then you've got this other part that you say of being dad and being, being seen as being dad, right?

You are there, you are, around your children. It's not that you are just constantly in the business and not around. So I love that because for people. That are listening. Success isn't just about getting your business from A to Z or hitting a certain number, which is what is misleading these days.

As in that seems to be the focus, the fact that you've seemed to have gone through this journey and managed this lifestyle balance As well is amazing. So I think huge congratulations to you for not only getting the business to, where it's at, but for being able to really understand your why and, that almost that purpose as well.

Yeah, definitely. and that, that whole, that, even, that, that whole success thing is, I my like, without sounding, fluffy about it, most successful person I know is my dad, and he is, he drives around in his van. He, fixes domestic compliance and, and Hoovers.

And he's got Dave domestic compliance, vacuum engineered Dave a little bit free advertising. He gets that on the side of his van. And there's not one person that will have a bad word to say about Dave. And if you have, you're talking about the wrong one. he goes on loads of holidays, he's got fantastic relationship.

With his family, with us. We have a brilliant relationship and he's a one man band, and that is success. And same as, and same as, and this is part of it, I come from very good stock mom's. The same, her success because she knew all of this. She's very, self-aware. She knew what hers was and her motivator is us always has been.

Yet she has the capacity to do whatever she wanted to do. She could have climbed that corporate ladder as far as she wanted to go because she had this.

But

that was never her motivator was us. So actually the sacrifice of that put into us meant that I've got a wicked, I've got a wicked upbringing, which again, helps this kind of going forward.

knowing those two people that have got their successes, yeah, you're absolutely right. It, won't mean the same to anybody else, but doesn't matter.

I love that. And it's a great way to, to end the podcast for those that are listening. So thank you so much, Dan. You've been awesome.

I love how real you've been and how important people are to you, I think is wouldn't necessarily say refreshing as though people don't address that. But at the same time, it's so great to hear that you put people first. 'cause I think that's so, important. And one of the, reasons what helps really make a business stand out is people.

Yeah. So thank you so

much.

No, thank you. I've enjoyed it.

And thank you everyone for listening today.

Cool.