From Idea to Exit: How David Hurst Grew, Scaled & Sold a Business with Pure Determination

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod from e-Commerce Nurse sits down with David Hurst, former Essex High Sheriff and non-executive director of OnRec, to dive into the gritty reality of building, scaling, and successfully exiting a business through pure determination and strategic planning.

Chapters
[00:00:44] Introduction and David's Current Roles
[00:02:50] Early Entrepreneurial Journey and Property Development
[00:07:48] Transition from Corporate Sales to Business Owner
[00:10:22] First Hires and Learning Through Chaos
[00:16:03] Challenges of Managing People and Growth
[00:19:06] Aggressive Takeover Threats and Growing Up Fast
[00:25:06] Managing Pressure and Finding Balance
[00:30:06] Decision Making and Leadership Development
[00:33:35] The Exit Strategy and Earnout Experience
[00:39:03] The Final Sale and Immediate Aftermath
[00:42:42] Transition to Charity Work and Giving Back

💡 Topics Covered:
✅ The mindset shift from employee to entrepreneur and recognizing opportunities
✅ Early property development ventures and learning to leverage investments
✅ Transitioning from corporate sales roles to building your own business
✅ The reality of chaotic early hires and learning management on the fly
✅ Dealing with aggressive competitors and takeover threats in business
✅ Managing the pressure and stress of rapid business growth
✅ Developing decision-making skills and leadership under pressure
✅ The importance of having Plan A and Plan B during exit negotiations
✅ Navigating earnout periods and working with new corporate owners
✅ The emotional journey from business sale to finding new purpose
✅ Applying entrepreneurial skills to turn around failing charities

🔥 "Right up until the sale, I had plan A and Plan B. If they hadn't have been honourable, if they'd have said 'we're just going to knock 20% off that initial price,' to be honest, if I hadn't have had that plan B in mind, I would've said 'oh alright, you can have it.'"

💪 "I think trust your instincts. Be inquisitive, learn as much as you can, talk to as many people as you can. Don't think you know everything - just try and absorb as much as possible."

🎯 "I had an attitude just to get on and do stuff. I was quite impatient, and as time progressed, I found myself putting money in other people's pockets, building their businesses, and I thought I ought to be trying to put my efforts into building my own."

🔔 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business!

#Entrepreneurship #BusinessExit #Determination #YourMindYourBusiness #BusinessGrowth #StartupJourney #BusinessSale #Earnout #CharityWork #PropertyDevelopment #BusinessPodcast #Entrepreneurs #EntrepreneurPodcast #BusinessStrategy #Leadership

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Transcript

Right up until the sale, I had plan A and Plan B. Plan A was that I would sell to them. But in doing that, there were all sorts of things I was putting in place and I knew and I could feel it, that just before it came to selling, I would be so weak because I would've thought, "Oh, I'm going to make a little bit of money.

I'll buy a new car, or I'll take the family on holiday."

And if they hadn't been honorable, if they'd have said, "Oh, actually, you know, we've re-looked at the numbers and we've re-evaluated and we think we're just going to knock 20% off that initial price."

To be honest, if I hadn't had that plan B in mind, I would've "Ohh, alright".

Then you can have it. 

Welcome to your mind, your business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship. I'm your host, founder and fitness fanatic, Corina McLeod, and we have a special guest today, David Hurst, former Essex High Sheriff and non-executive director for OnRec. Did I say that? 

 Yes. Yeah, that's fine.

Fantastic. So I felt a bit under pressure because there are a lot of roles that David, you've had and, I think it'll be great actually if you start off by sharing a bit to the audience about where you are at, what you are doing today.

And then I'm going to go and hit rewind to find out all about your entrepreneurial journey.

Okay. Hi there. so I'm a deputy lieutenant of Essex, which means when I'm asked, I represent the Monarch, for duties in Essex.

I've spent the last 12 months as the high sheriff of Essex, where I was the 844th high sheriff, a role that goes back a thousand years. and in that role I was representing the King, supporting Law and order. 

During the day, I'm currently a non-exec director of on rec.com. an organisation I founded 25 years ago.

And I'm also a director of a small property company.

Fantastic. Small property company. I'm not so sure how small, but yeah, we'll take that.

It's very humble. So fantastic. Those are, sounds like you're definitely busy in terms of what you're doing, and doing things from more from a service perspective. And also you've got the business that you said that you are non-executive director of a business that you. 

Had, and it's been going for 25 years, so there's going to be a story behind that, I'm sure.

So let's hit rewind and go right back to the start of your entrepreneurial journey. What was that point? Did you ever start off and think that you'd be a business owner? I know we've briefly spoken about this, but what was that sort of pivotal moment that really took you on that journey?

I did very early on and have paid jobs very early on, but I always regarded my efforts and my time as my business, even though I was just being paid an early rate.

I had an attitude just to get on and do stuff. I was quite impatient. and as time progressed, I found myself putting money in other people's pockets, which is no problem at all. But I was building their businesses, and I thought, really, I ought to be trying to put my efforts into building my own.

and that's when I really tried to think of ideas that I could make money out of

Was your business the first idea or did you play around with lots of things to start with?

Oh, I had loads of ideas, yes. Some worked, some didn't. Some made a little bit of money. I never lost, not that I can remember.

mainly because I never went to anybody else for funding. So the pressure was only on me and on what I put in. 

But, out of some of the ideas I had, one or two weren't too bad. and they developed and got better.

And is, when you say those ideas, were those ideas the company, because I know that you mentioned about On Rec and actually that's a company that you were able to sell and exit. Was that your first, business that, or did you have ventures before that?

Oh no. I'd had many from, I bought my first house when I 18, 19 did it up, and sold it 18 months later. And in those heady days when you could double your money, it was only a tiny little place and it was scruffy and horrible.

And I did all the work myself that I could do. but I doubled my money. Then I bought another one. Did that up. all the time working elsewhere, doing shift work. Sometimes I was working, sometimes at night and then coming back and doing the building work during the day and just grabbing a little bit of sleep.

But just trying, in hindsight now, I didn't really have any money, so I spent a lot of time making money for the bank. cause I was borrowing it all. but over time I bought and sold a few, and I made a little bit more. and managed to get a little bit together so I could buy a house, leverage that, and bought another one and did that up.

And then this perhaps probably to your audience was in a long while ago, but in the eighties the property market stopped. So whilst I'd just got going and thought I was going to make a bit of money out of it, 'cause I'd suddenly figured out I thought how to do it. The market just froze. Stopped. And, so I had to regroup and come up with another idea.

And, I found myself, in London, working in advertising.

I remember you saying that in advertising. So that's kind of a bit of a change, right? So you are. into real estate and you are, you're getting properties and you're doing them up and you're selling them. To then go and jump into a role in London in advertising. is advertising then, was that the route that then you then decided to, proceed and,

I think, when I say advertising, I'm really glossing up-sales. 

basically what it was. Yeah. it was entirely and, I was all right at it. I was all right, mainly because I was hard working. 

I got in early, I worked hard, and I made a bit of money at it and it tidied me over for a couple of years while I started to try and formulate a bit of a plan.

So you're formulating the plan. Is that a plan to then run your own business? Because I guess you had that freedom, right? You are, you're doing up properties, you're doing a bit of shift work, but you're not really bound to a desk as such, and then all of a sudden you're in London on the train every day commuting.

That's very different, effectively, you're taking them starting to be in a more corporate environment.

Absolutely. And what I realised was that I had the determination to keep going. I was traveling to London. I live away from London, so there were long days and I was working really hard and I thought, I can work from home.

And this was a bit before work from home started. I have the determination, I've got the, I know what I'm trying to achieve and then, so I set it. I was able to pick up a couple of contracts selling magazines, and I was working from home. I had a couple of phone lines and I just worked from home.

and that was really quite a successful period. It, I, was operating as a company. I had two or three. Customers. and at the same time I was thinking of magazine ideas and publishing ideas, and I was trying them on the side. they worked, maybe one or two worked a bit. and then, I picked up a contract for a recruitment magazine.

and that went very well, and it was quite lucrative. And, then I came up with an idea of a magazine that was actually on a website. That was quite a good idea.

was so you are in the advertising or sales world, in the corporate world. What, was that shift for you to then go, I'm going to quit what I'm doing right now. I'm going to go and work from home.

And because that's sometimes, I guess, sometimes with a lot of people, it's that when do you make that step? You know that you've got an idea and you believe in that idea, but when do you take that step to say, do you know what that, standard, that oncoming income, I'm going to stop because I'm going to take that transition now to be my own boss.

I did my best to hedge my bets, so I tried to do both. So I was busy doing the day job whilst working on the ideas in the evening. and it wasn't until the ideas got bigger than the day job that I thought now I have to make.

and it was an easy decision to make because one was doing better and I was becoming successful. You just work doubly hard.

Yeah. It sounds like there's a theme there in terms of working hard, right? In terms of what you've been able to achieve, almost like double jobs at one point in order to get to a point where you had your own business. 

Yeah. It seems to work. I was wondering about that on the trains that came out. Did they work hard?

I wonder what people do all day. 

kinda, I'm not quite sure what working hard is. 

I was sending emails. I've passed forward this morning. I don't regard that as working hard. I regard that as waking up early and.

It is light and has something to do. so I do remember when I hit a very difficult patch, with O Rec. It was around the time of 9/11 and we had a lot of international customers, and 9/11 happened and the world just stopped buying things. Everybody stopped traveling.

Everybody's corporate buyers sat on their hands. Nobody knew. Really what was going on. And we just had people canceling everywhere. and it became very apparent that I would have to lose staff very quickly, move to a smaller premises. and I just extended my working day, two hours either side.

So I got in at seven in the morning and I didn't finish till seven at night. 'cause I knew I just had to grind my way through.

and that's 'cause you then had to downsize. Yeah. So you've taken this transition where you are then working for your own business and you make your first few hires. 

 What was that like? 

Oh, haphazard. I just, I, the first person I hired, was a tremendous chap, in fact, he's gone on to great success. Leor, if you are, watching, you're, a star. he, he went on to become a marketing manager for one of the large consultancies in town.

Now works as a senior marketing executive in a legal firm. And he found me. He said, I've just received this new magazine. He said there were things wrong with it there, there's some typos on the front page and, you should be doing this. And was really quite aggressive on the phone.

And, it turned out he was working as an intern in a recruitment agency. And I dunno quite how, but I said, if you're so bothered, won't you come work for me? And he said, yes. All right. So he did.

Oh, wow.

And he turned up and he started working, outta my office, which at the time was in my house. In what was a very challenging time, not launching a business, which was always an adventure, but at the time my wife was extremely poor.

So he, to his absolute credit, was working in an upstairs bedroom of a house where it was full of children and all sorts. He was my first hire, but. He was an immense challenge. I don't think you'll mind me saying only because he would tip, say, wait, why don't we do this? Why do we do this?

This is because we were just starting. I had an idea, but there was so much opportunity. Why don't we do this as well? I know, and he was a very clever lad. Very, really clever, far more clever than me. And so then I had to compute these ideas and suggestions. No, don't, give me any more. I'm just trying to sort a day out, let alone.

Conceptualise 

what you're, what you are presenting. and he then went on to do a master's actually, and left. And then I had some delightful haphazard recruiting. George, and if George is watching this, 

Everybody loves George. He'd just been sacked from a timber yard when I employed him.

he was, I know, early twenties, 21 maybe. he'd, but he'd done a degree in fine art. and Georgie's, a very clever chap and he could pick up a software program without reading. I couldn't believe people picked up software programs without reading the manual and he could figure it out. And George joined me as, website, database staff.

and now we're 25 years on. Actually, George works in his own company, in the office next door to me. and he is very successful with his colleagues building, and working with websites. 

A bit scary making your first hire because you're, there's a responsibility there, isn't there when you're, when you hire someone that comes on board?

I think it was too chaotic really, to worry about it too much. I made a couple of dreadful hires just in a, they were just people that answered the advert, to be honest, and I just, nobody else had, so you got the job. That was the truth of it. 

Yeah. 

and they just weren't suitable.

I've got to be, I think I've got much better at it now. Yeah. If we jump forward in time, I took over a charity that was failing, and had to recruit a new CEO and senior management. and what I learned from that process is to recruit the very best people you possibly can. And it doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay. An enormous amount. Sometimes you can find really good people that match your organisation with a requirement for wages that match your ability to pay. You just gotta look in the right place.

Yeah, definitely. And I guess that's the part, right? You say it was too chaotic, so you don't, you're not really thinking about it.

And I guess you're learning as you go along. 

Yes, absolutely. Yes. and what's tricky is sometimes, you're making those mistakes and you've gotta get after them, which is quite, it's quite tricky when you, I used to say, if you come work for me, stay for two weeks, and I'll pay you for two weeks.

And if you don't like it, that's fine, and if I don't like you or it doesn't work out. Thanks for coming. but but 

it's harder in reality. particularly if people, 

I had, yeah, one or two early challenges. I've had a flashback of someone who. lied about their situation and, they, they lied that, they had a member of their family that had cancer. 

they knew it resonated ' cause that was something I was dealing with at home. And, it was a soft touch for them, so they borrowed some money. They went on holiday. They took an extra holiday, which they hadn't got holiday pay for, they hadn't got holiday for. and I gave them some, a loan and then they just, they never came back. 

Wow. 

And, when, then when you're going so busy as a business owner, you don't, I wasn't. Micromanaging people particularly or at all. And they hadn't really done anything All the time they'd been with us and, 

but they just, they left, they, no resignation or anything. And I got a call about it.

Six months later from the girl's mother who said, can she have a P 45? And I said, oh, I didn't know she'd left.

Oh wow. That just showed, that's crazy. And that's terrible really when you think about it, 

Oh, it, yeah, but you got too fast. You've got time. No, I just, oh,

no. And I guess that's the chaos of managing a business, but just trying to keep going.

And I guess you're managing those highs and lows as well at the same time. How how would, 

I guess the business, it's still going to this day, it's yeah.

And so definitely a success. Congratulations on growing a business and having a business growing, being going for that long, but also to a point that it came to an exit, I'm guessing.

It wasn't plain sailing. You mentioned about the challenges of managing people, but I guess to get from a to a point of exit, so there might be some people listening from trying to exit their business. What will be those kind of pivotal or big challenges that you know that you want to get to X but you're getting pushback or I call 'em punches.

I call 'em other things as well, but let's go with cup punches.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think you, the challenge is you've gotta take everybody with you, so you're explaining, I'm a, I really, I'm a big fan of putting your flag in the sand and saying, this is where we're going and telling everybody. Where we're going, whether it be the people that work for you, people that supply you, your family, your friends, people you bump into because almost by just saying, I'm going over here.

you are, you just, you are gravitating and people are helping you gravitate. I remember, I bought the staffing individually. When I sold the business, I started it in two, it launched on February the 14th, 2000, and I sold it at the end of 2006. And, I brought one of the guys into the office and to have a chat with 'em and say that it was being sold and you didn't have to worry about your job, you'll still be employed.

And I said, oh, you don't seem surprised. And he said, when you recruited me three years ago, you told me you were building up to sell it.

I thought, great. Interesting. Yeah. so if you are communicating with people what your plans are, generally, 

I think that's helpful.

Yeah. And so six years, so it was 2000 that you say you started the business and then you were able to exit in 2006.

Did you always, like, you had a point in your mind, did you know it would be six years? Did you, or was that, did that come to you as a surprise?

a bloke? Fluke.

I had odd approaches over those years.

I had one very aggressive approach that we were in. Interacting with newspapers and large publishing organisations at the time. And, a large publishing organisation. the managing director met me and basically said, we'd like to buy your business. But if you don't sell, we'll set up one in opposition against you.

 And 

we'll bring you down.

bring. Wow. 

So how did you manage that one?

Going in, that's just galvanized me for, you know, what I'm doing. 'cause you won't be able to,

I, guess that's like rocket fuel for you 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think I have someone who likes me a bit like a terrier.

I am. I'm, and if I get hold of something, I'm not going to let go and I'm certainly not going to let someone steal it off me.

Wow. 

Wow. That's crazy. So that's an aggressive offer. Definitely. But I guess that was, was that the fuel that made you get then, did that change you slightly in terms of your direction? 

I think in a way it made me grow up. I thought, whoa, I'm in with the big boys now? This is you. You've gotta watch yourself, you've gotta watch your back. You, I wouldn't. You just gotta be on your toes. 'cause I have an expression, that it's for the quick and the dead.

If you are not an entrepreneur, not that I think of myself as an entrepreneur, I think that's something that maybe somebody else calls you.

You have to be fleet of foot and paying attention because the moment you relax and think you've got the hang of it and you're doing well, then you know, your chances are you are probably missing some opportunities and laying yourself vulnerable to change your market, market aggression, whatever it might be.

It's interesting that you say that about the growing up part because we've had a few guests on that sort of say, when we talk about what would you do again, and a lot of them have said, do you know what? I was naive at the start because it was just like I was going to set up a business and I can apply the same here that, a lot of people think that many business owners had a master plan and truth be told.

There's no master plan. It was just like having an idea and just that real belief that the idea was going to work. 

Had that not been the case, would people even have started it? So it's interesting that you say that, that growing up piece, did that mean that you started to change the business? Because I'm guessing when you go through chaos, the infrastructure isn't always there.

You are running faster than you can, introduce 

things and processes and 

workflows. 

Oh, yes. And the stuff wasn't available. When I look now and see how easy it's to communicate, this sounds as if I'm like, talking about the Stone Age, but you couldn't.

Send emails unless you were sat at your desk, 

you, I couldn't, I couldn't access a database to see who my customers were unless I was in the office. And it's just utterly We, in the beginning we were still using a fax machine. We got orders confirmed by fax, how Luddite and slow compared with now where you can, you just send a PDF and you'll sign in and it's just done.

What a joy. But, the simple process was, so slow and challenging. and, also dragging your staff along with you because you were trying to be innovative and come up with new ways of working they hadn't done before. And that was a challenge. It was a challenge for them. 

and, your, there was a lot of time, 

I actually employed a trainer and I thought I needed to.

Give my staff more skills, but I thought, I can't afford the time for them to be outta the office going to classes or something. So I paid for a trainer to come in and sit with them and say, what are you trying to do today? Oh, I want to do this one, move this over here. I want to get that right. I'll tell you what.

And they would sit with each individual person and just make their personal workflow better. 

I love that. 

And that worked quite well.

Wow.

It saved a lot of time because I didn't want to train them to do everything. I just want to try 'em to do that bit. Please, quickly. 

was going to 

say, because this is a thing, right? you've got all these ideas. You strike me as someone, as you say, with lots of ideas, and you want to, you know where you're going.

You want to go get to X, but you're being pulled back by everybody because people are working at a different pace. People haven't got, you haven't got the processes or anything. How do you mention about the trainer, but how do you manage that sort of internally, like you want to to make sure that.

Those frustrations don't necessarily come out, or they might do,

I would hope that they didn't come out. out. 

I think I remember they do come out, if you, I remember, what our broadband was cut off.

B team, in their wisdom, had got a, a, notice to cut off our broadband, not from us. And so they cut off our broadband for two weeks. 

Wow. 

and this was a business that, I'm sure anybody out there would appreciate. It was like not being able to interact with the outside world. And, I got so close to the complaints department of bt, the chap that I found that was helpful.

I knew his shift pattern and I was speaking to him every day that his shift pattern started, to try and get it solved. I think I'm sure the staff will remember. Then the veins in my neck were going, I, was. Close to losing it, just through the frustration of it wasn't our fault.

We'd done nothing wrong, and yet we were being immensely penalised. It was extremely difficult.

Did that impact your business, like from a sales perspective?

Oh, yes. I'm sure, yeah. You just, you 

we cobbled together something 

to, get round it, but yes. It wasn't helpful. 

Yeah.

You strike me as someone that can balance and maintain that.

 I'm guessing though that it might come across like that. Are there times or were there times during that six year period where you are growing really rapidly, where you just felt that immense weight on your shoulders and that pressure of running the business?

Yes, I'm sure I was. Yes, I was very well aware of it. Yeah. and unlike you, I'm not sure I necessarily always took the healthy option of working out and going for a round. I have always walked and walked a lot. I always had border Collie dogs and they need loads of exercise, so I have always been able to get up early and walk or late at night, go for a walk.

So I would say. That exercise gives you that opportunity just to get a bit of free space just to where it is a little quieter and you can just maybe shout, whatever it might be, shout, formulate a conversation, whatever it might, and just try and put things back into perspective.

but I think I probably drank too much. I probably smoked too much at the time. I doubt it. I'm sure I'm probably not unusual in that. 

yeah, definitely. But it's interesting though, the walking part, which is so, important these days and just being able to know and implement strategies so you can just switch off because how do you create and, I'm asking this probably, 'cause that's where the position I'm in right now is making sure that you have time for clarity to get you with the ideas of where you get.

to and where you said you put your flag in the sand versus being pulled into the weeds of the operational part.

yeah, and it's happening. you can feel the suck of it and you are, you're scrambling to go in the other direction day. 

I, do think, you, it's helpful if you understand that the way you work best, 

I am far better first thing in the morning. morning. The earlier the better. I've had some brilliant ideas with Jet Lagger. I passed three in the morning. When I've had complete clarity of thought, but I've always found actually particularly flying to America and being in America where you wake up at half 3 in the morning, and I'm absolutely wired and I've done some.

Terrific thinking of work, at that time. But the same in the UK, time. I wake up early and that's when I seem to be better at problem solving. Then past 10 o'clock, I use that more as time for sorting stuff, and interacting with people. But, I think maybe. Choosing the right time to make those decisions and deal with those on your terms.

I think I remember people firing stuff at me and thinking, I need to think about that. That. I don't know. I know what the, I'll find the answer, but just at this precise moment, I don't know. 

and I would have to, I would say, let me think about that and, gimme 24 hours and I'll have computed 'cause it's not. It's often the question, it, is not as simple as it sounds because there are ramifications for everything that, so that might be better for you maybe, but how does that impact on our clients, on, on the colleagues you work with or, my workload. And I need to just think about that. 

and it be that you've had a brilliant idea and let's absolutely do it, but just let me figure it through.

and so yeah, maybe, the opportunity to buy yourself time is, can be helpful.

helpful. That's so key because that's what, I can resonate with that just completely, with where I am today. If we go back to those earlier days. 

Were you biding time there or were you just I'm going for it, I'm just running,

Oh, I'm gungho. Yeah. Just, on all fronts. Yes. Do it. Yeah, whatever. and two, yeah, there was, in those early days, it was less to go wrong really? 'cause it was just all, it was starting to throw stuff forward. So it was fine. Yeah. It is, when it comes just a little bit more. A bit more complicated.

I had an office in America and I had staff working over there as well as in the UK and you were juggling, there was more than one thing at play at any one time. And so what might seem a straightforward suggestion from somebody else there could, it did have ramifications, yeah. and you had, you just had to just need time to think it through.

But I do. do think as a business person, you get. I am very used to making decisions. I can, I can give you an instant decision on anything. 

Yeah. it might, it gimme more time and it'll probably be a slightly better one perhaps if I, but if I'll take whatever information you gimme me right now and I'll, happily go.

Yeah. left or right. That doesn't bother me at all. I've got a friend who's a very lovely man, very intelligent, and he hums and has over decisions at great length. I'll gimme the info. I'll give you an answer now. 

Yeah. 

But with the caveat that the more info I get, I may change my mind. I remember many years ago.

Chap told me about buying a company. If you're ever buying a company to write down the reasons on a piece of paper, why you're doing it, and then turn it over. And then as you proceed through that purchase, if you get to a point and it doesn't feel quite right, turn that paper over again and remind yourself why you're doing it.

And if they don't match up, you need to think about, are you still in the same course? 'cause where you started from, as new information comes in that may not, your original aim might not be matched.  That's interesting. That's why,

which comes into things a lot in terms of managing business. So You've got this, You've got now an office in the US. If we go back to your experience at, o Rec, you've obviously gone through a transition, right? The first transition is that startup, that messy phase, and then you're going to a point where you are just growing and scaling the business. Was there any, 

A moment at all where you would question yourself, because I'm guessing it's new, you've never done it before. Were there any times where you thought, do you know what, I'm not sure I can do this, or were you always feeling pretty confident that you could take the business from x from A to Z?

I don't think I was ever overly confident. I think I was, I think I was determined, rather than, I wouldn't, I don't think I would've said, oh, no, it's all right. I've got this. Don't worry. 

Done it before. 

It's all going to be fine. I've, and I've read a book The Day's, all right, let's get back. I don't think I ever had, I think I've got it now.

 I felt I could see where we were going as we got into the American stuff. By then, I was. Close to, I was getting close to a sale, and, the sale I did, and if anybody's out there, they'll, they'll, be familiar with the term earnout. If you're not familiar with earnouts, I liken it to, get a lawnmower, put it in the middle of the lawn, put it on, start it, put it on full throttle, and leave it.

Because that's what it's like. 'cause if you thought you were working hard, if it's a, if it's a, a clever earnout and beneficial, you will be, you thought you were working hard, then you really work hard because, the way it works is, the company's growth. you are incentivized. I was incentivized hugely, 

and, it was very lucrative. But boy oh boy, I boy did have to work for him. 

So that's when you exited the business, so you were given a, you sold the company through a buyout. How long was that buyout period?

So the actual earnout was three years.

 yeah. Three years. Okay.

 And I refer to it as being a hamster on a carpeted wheel,

I think, and those that are listening might think, no, I've had a really smooth experience. But I know that many of the people that I've spoken to have had that because I think there's a different part there. We've spoken about the journey of you growing the business, but you've been the one in charge.

You've been the one Oh, yeah. all those decisions. So all of a sudden you are then working with someone who has 

Power in terms of decision making, Yeah. Yet there's a stake. 

of yours in that, how did you navigate that?

That was very challenging. I have to say that Doug Emsley, if you're watching this, was, managing director of a task at the time.

bearing in mind I'd got rather fearful of large organisations having been approached and, 

and bullied. When he made an approach to purchase the organisation. We got on extremely well. and there was a contract that was an inch and a half thick and I was. Just prior to signing, fearful that they were going, I was going to get turned over and that I would be in, just end up with nothing, no matter what the, what it said, they were a big firm.

They had an in-house lawyer, they had in-house. Finance directors. I was, if, they, I have to say we over referred to the contract. They were completely honorable in the entire process. And, I hadn't, I didn't, I, it was, I was right to worry, but I needn't have, because they were, they were thoroughly, honorable, which was a tremendous relief.

In a way the, right to worry is good because it means that you did your due diligence as Well,

Yes. Yes. Yeah. But right up until the sale, I had plan A and Plan B. Plan A was that I would sell to them. but in doing that, there were all sorts of things I were. I was putting in place and I knew, and I could feel it, that just before it came to selling, I would be so weak because I would've thought, oh, I'm going to make a little bit of money.

I'll buy a new car, or I'll take the family on holiday and. and if they hadn't been honorable, if they'd have said, oh, actually, cor, I don't, you know, we've re-looked at the numbers and we've reevaluated and we think we're just going to knock 20% off that initial price. to be honest, if I hadn't had that plan B in mind, I would've Ohh alright Then you can have it. Whereas I was determined not to let it. I had a plan B. And if they didn't sign, we were going to carry on in a slightly different trajectory, because it wouldn't have been so fueled with the backing. Part of the strategy was to really go large in America, and we did a big show in Chicago, but that was offered back because they were already launching and had a huge show in America.

and I could piggyback on that, but I couldn't have done it on my own. So I would've had to go in a different direction.

That's a huge amount of self-awareness there to be able to go, We are close to a sale. 

But that part that you say about being weak, because it's almost so close, you've got your hopes.

You're like, oh, that car, that house

pay off me, mortgage, all those debts, all that money I've pumped in at the firm over years, I can get that back

back a hundred percent. So then all of a sudden they're like. We're going to just cut it back. You are almost like, oh dude, just give me just gimme anything at that 

point. So that's that. Just note taking.

No, it is a huge thing to be aware of because I think that could, that's where you could completely be bitten and, thankfully it was a that didn't happen. 

But the fact that you had a plan A and plan B sounds like some solid advice for anyone that's listening today.

Yeah. It worked for me.

 And, also gave me mental security.

 So, just to try and hold strong actually. 'cause you can't, you are, you're forward thinking. That's your job. If someone says they're going to give you some money that you weren't going to have before and you are going to do what you said you were going to do, what are you going to do then?

are you, and, actually what are you going to do with it? because you know you've got some money that you didn't have before. You know, what you could do with it, then what do you do with it? 

all I'd known was plowing it into the business that I had. I've always had a fear of frittering money away.

Yeah. I can't, I believe if you've got a bit of money together, that it's really important to try and keep that lump together. Yeah. And not, spend it on stuff that isn't. just anything. Which would be easy to do.

A hundred percent. So you're coming close to this date of knowing that you're going to sell it and you're managing you've got your plan A and plan B.

Were there any moments where you thought, I've gotta pinch myself, or that you were just getting stressed, sleepless nights and everything? 'cause it's almost like that anticipation that's going on. How did you manage that?

I'm not sure I managed it. I vividly remember going up and selling the company on that day and I don't know, I dunno what you call me.

Do you ever get your eye twitch?

When sometimes when you're a bit tired, you're a bit 

a bit

stressed. Yeah.

this, I could feel, I could actually feel it. They were all doing it. It was the top and the bottom. It was the most bizarre sensation. I thought, wonder if anybody else could see this? I guess I was pretty stressed.

I was up in these London offices and I arrived and Doug met me and he said, oh, have you, have you brought your lawyers with you? And I went, no. And have you bought your accountants with you? I went, no. Do I need them? He said, no, you don't need them. Most people do. But I said, I'll be all right.

So I sat with their lawyer, went through the contract, sat with their finance director and did the deal. And they said it's really close to Christmas. We've signed the deal, but you're not going to get your money till January now 'cause it's the banks have shut. And, 

So I sold the company, so I went home on the train. 

and I was, and I went home. My wife and daughters were Christmas shopping and I sat in the kitchen at home and thought, oh, well done. Great. You sold the company. You haven't got any money yet. Let's hope this all works out.

Wow, that's a crazy one because I can imagine what that, I can't imagine, but I can imagine what that journey felt like if you've got this goal, you've got your six years, you're like, we're going for it.

We know, I know where we're going to go. You sell the business. You haven't had to go to plan B. And then there's almost this okay, now I've done it.

There's the worry about the money, but there's also this other part I think you were alluding to earlier is, okay, great, you've got the money now.

So what does that mean? Yeah,you've, 

got your, you've got your job in hand, which is to, 

the very big challenge of working with someone who's now your boss. 

 and they are making corporate decisions about something you know, everything about, and they're not making very good ones.

And you are very mindful of going. And you don't want to do that. You don't want to do that either. But you can't keep saying that. And after a while you go, you buy it, it's yours. You do what you think. 

That's fine. Yeah. Best of luck to you. 

I bet that's hard because it is like your baby, isn't it? Like 

you've been biting your lip the entire time. 

It's very challenging.

And so then you've, you have your earn out, you do your, three years. you didn't stop there though, did you? 

No. to my surprise, I thought they would then kick me out the door. but they kept me on as a consultant for a long while afterwards.

And I did my best to offer my help and support. And I think it was probably wise. I was, I always made the business about the business, not about me, but I did know a lot of people in the industry and kept me on board. I did have offers. After I sold it, which I did, because I was working for them as a consultant, I felt Iwould be wrong, that they were honorable and there was no way I was going to start up something against them or anything like that.

It just wouldn't have been. And I had some offers that were a bit borderline and I thought, no, I'm not going to do that. It's not for me. So I did wonder if, if I could be entrepreneurial, in the charity environment 

environment. And, I'd been involved in helping charities and raising money for charities for a long while, in an organisation called Roundtable.

And we'd do a fireworks display each year. We'd raise money and give it to local charities. and I really enjoyed the process of, of, evaluating the charities and, then, getting my colleagues to agree to give 'em the money. I then found myself on the board of something called the South End Community Fund, which was set up by a chap called Howard Briggs, who was a mayor of South End.

And that was, he raised money and, there was a pot of money, and the interest was spent on charities in South End. I'm now the chair of that and we've got about 600,000 invested and we donate money each year to. Local charities. so I was interested in charities. I was interested in how they worked and I chaired an organisation and it had gone through a bit of a rough time and I figured it out and settled everybody down.

And just towards the end of it, a chap came up to me and said, I've been running a charity for 30 years. It's going wrong. It's making me ill, I dunno how to fix it. Will you take it over? And, I said yes. And it had 43 staff, million and a half turnover, and it was going skin,

 that, so that was another.

And I said I'll do a year as trustee so I can understand what I'm getting into. And then I'll take over and I'll do four years as chairman of the trustee. And, I'm pleased. to Report now I know 10 years on it's flourishing and doing really well. 

Fantastic. And congratulations. And I love that because it's not just some, a lot of people that think when somebody's growing a business to sell it, it's all about, it's all about the money, but often it's all about almost the challenge in getting your business from A to Z, right?

And then being able to give back to charities and supporting charities as well, which you've been able to do, which is fantastic. Was that ever the goal, was it always a challenge for you, as if you knew that determination that you could make it happen?

I think I was interested to test myself to see if, because I don't think you can call yourself an entrepreneur. I think that's for somebody else to do, as I mentioned.

But I wondered, but I do kinda think if maybe you've done something more than once, maybe that you, start to earn the title maybe of Entrepreneur and the chance to do it in the charity environment and apply the. it is pretty straightforward logic, but and, I love fixing things.

I fix things. So the chance of taking over something that. That I figured could be fixed. That was a challenge that really just suited me and I think it's your duty as a member of society if you are half decent. at work or just, not even that if I think we should all.

Try and help somebody else. That kind of, if you just share the love a bit more, and you'll be amazed who you meet, who, what you learn, and not, and yeah, just, share the love, help somebody else.

Yeah. I absolutely love that because, we can get a bit greedy in, in the world and especially from.

When you are, a lot of people assume that when you run a business you're greedy, but it's not always clear cut. You're not sitting there on, on gold. There's a lot more that, goes into it

and it's usually very well earned. I think, what. I think you just have to be mindful.

you, don't work in the same way to other people. you don't build up a pension like the way that somebody might, if they were, if they had a, know, a solid, secure job. So you are building that in what you are doing. So it might look like a lot, but actually by comparison, it's, it, it's the, I think the other thing is you, it really is good if you just keep a bit quiet about it. Yeah. No. Nobody wants to hear how successful you've been at your company. That's just, and they're more interested to hear if you've been able to turn a charity around.

Yeah.

that, and that is more interesting,

But that's mindfulness in itself. Like we spoke about the self-awareness and that, that's mindful in knowing that it's, not something to shout about,

but actually, and then giving back, which of course you're doing in many ways now, due, due to, having the role as. High Sheriff and everything.

So if we were to just go back to, ' 

Because all of this is absolutely true, I love your story and I love the fact that you've been able to, grow a business and then go into the point where you're helping CHA charities turn things around and I love your self-awareness and how humble you are. If you were to go back to the start and give any advice to that, David, starting out, what would that advice be

I think you should trust your instincts. Absolutely. I think, think, be inquisitive. Learn as much as you can.

Talk to as many people as you can. goodness, don't think you know everything. Just, just try and absorb as much as possible. And, I think, think, 

be 

be prepared to change tack 'cause markets change. market not your fault, nothing you've done. But, the markets change and you need to adapt with them or else you'll be toast.

but, I think, overall, I think, think, keep your head down. Work hard. Don't give up. Yeah. Yeah.

do you have any regrets of anything you've done or you feel that all, learning. 

All learning? I, I'm very, I think I'm an optimist, so I mean I've made some, yeah, some whopping mistakes, of course.

I think you're allowed to make mistakes. I think it's just, don't make 'em again. That's, I think that's, isn't that the definition of stupidity? making the same mistake twice. so yes, I've made mistakes, but, I've tried to, think about and how they happened and, to not make the same mistake

again. 

Yeah, definitely. Thank you David. You've been an absolutely awesome guest for sharing your story. I feel like just talking with you for an hour is just not enough.

'cause I know that there's so much more behind it. But hopefully our listeners today can understand more about your journey and. Resonate with some elements of it. And I do want to say, you mentioned the word entrepreneur, I don't want you to say someone else can call you that. So I am going to call you an entrepreneur 'cause you definitely are in terms of just your mindset and the way you've been able to create a business.

And I know you've got other projects and you work in the charity sector and everything. Yeah, it's just been great to have the opportunity to talk to you and hear your story. 'cause I find it really inspiring. I know we've spoken about your story. Before and, yeah, just congratulations and thank you for sharing today.

Oh, thank you. It's been a treatment. We talked about my favourite subject.

Thank you. You, thank you ever so much. And thank you everyone for listening today.