From Survival to £3M Carmel Jane on Growth, Burnout & Scaling a Photography Business

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod from eCommerce Nurse, sits down with Carmel Jane, founder of Carmel Jane Photography and owner of two residential care homes, to dive into the raw journey from survival mode to scaling success, burnout recovery, and the unexpected pivot into children's care.

Chapters:

[00:00:13] Introduction and Meeting Carmel Jane 
[00:02:47] From Wedding Photography to Dance Schools - The Pivot 
[00:07:08] The Fire in Your Belly - Survival and Success 
[00:13:25] Managing Growth and Team Dynamics 
[00:18:20] Handling Business Highs, Lows and Burnout 
[00:26:45] Accidental Entry into Children's Care Homes 
[00:35:22] Competition, Copycats and Staying in Your Lane 
[00:46:03] Risk-Taking, Hiring Right and Lessons Learned

💡 Topics Covered:

✅ How a breast cancer diagnosis led to building a scalable photography business instead of self-employment 

✅ The brutal reality of rapid business growth without proper infrastructure 

✅ Why hiring people opposite to your personality type is crucial for success 

✅ Managing the transition from startup founder to business owner at different team sizes 

✅ Dealing with cutthroat competition and industry sabotage

✅ The accidental acquisition of two insolvent children's care homes and their turnaround.

✅ Why having a purpose matters more than money once you've achieved financial success

✅ The importance of getting into the right rooms with other entrepreneurs

"I had no other options. I kind of had done photography, I'd worked in hotels, so I didn't have a job that worked in with kids, so I just, I just had to do it. I had no other options."

"When you're small, they can just go, oh wow, she's a whirlwind. She's bringing us with us. But actually when the team gets bigger, you can't keep those connections with enough people."

"You need to have a purpose in life. 'Cause a life without, without a purpose kind of has no meaning."

📌 If you're an entrepreneur struggling with rapid growth, battling burnout, or wondering how to scale beyond your personal limits, this raw and honest conversation will give you the roadmap and reality check you need.

🔔 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business! 

#Entrepreneurship #BusinessGrowth #Photography #CareHomes #Scaling #Burnout #YourMindYourBusiness #BusinessPodcast #Entrepreneurs #EntrepreneurPodcast #BusinessMentoring #StartupStruggles #TeamBuilding #BusinessCoaching

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Carmel: one year it kind of really exploded and I didn't have the right people in place and every single day I was working on the business and we had sales and things.

And then on the weekend I was out lumping all the photography gear and it's quite hard work. People think photography's pushing a button, but when you're taking studio lights and big heavy cameras and you're kind of on it, and I didn't, I probably was doing literally 70, 80 hours a week for seven weeks.

 Welcome 

[00:00:29] Carina: to your mind, your business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship.

I'm your host, Karina McLeod, founder and fitness fanatic, and today we have a special guest, Carmel Jane. Welcome Carmel.

[00:00:41] Carmel: Thank you Corina. Thank you for me. I'm looking forward to talking to you, to looking forward to talking to you today because of course, we've actually only just met today. Um, we've been introduced, so I'm keen to hear your story, but I'm guessing the audience are thinking who is Carmel.

[00:00:56] Carina: So I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and then I'm gonna hit rewind and go back to the start of your entrepreneurial 

[00:01:01] Carmel: journey.

Well, I, some people might have heard me because I've photographed,

[00:01:04] Carina: because I've photographed,

[00:01:05] Carmel: uh, millions of kids actually. 'cause we are a very large school photography and dance school photography company, which I grew, um, over the last 15 years.

And, uh, just in the process of exiting, um, and in the meantime I bought two residential care homes for children, which has been a complete diversion and a little bit of an accident. But it's just aligning all those things around, running a business, creating the right teams, and putting the right processes in.

So I guess I just enjoy the kind of the challenge of creating teams and making it work and being a really decent employer and helping other people have nice lives.

[00:01:41] Carina: I love that. And congratulations because as we are gonna go and talk about, it's not so easy to set up a business and then grow a business and really make it success. So let's hit rewind. Let's go back to the start of the journey. So I'm guessing that's your photography business. Like what, what led you into, did you ever think you were an entrepreneur?

Come, come the 

[00:02:02] Carmel: start?

my parents had kind of done small time entrepreneur stuff and no, I don't know. I married a photographer and we did wedding photography.

Um. It wasn't a great marriage. I left him and I was doing wedding photography next year. It was, it was going pretty well. And then I got seriously ill with breast cancer and went, ah, I haven't got a business. I've got a sort of a self-employed job really, because if I'm not working, there's no money coming in.

Um, and so I got someone else helping me with the wedding photography and then I had a couple of little dance schools and I went, ah, if I pay other people to take the photos and I get sick again, I'll be okay. So I didn't even have any of the language around scaling and, and all that kind of thing. And someone I think I'd read, I'd read, um, the E Myth, maybe that was, you know, because this was pre podcast and all the information about how to be an entrepreneur.

Um, and so I got a little office. I completely rebranded. I said no to weddings and I just got on the phone and rung dance schools and said, well, come and take photos at your dance shows. Um. And then that just grew. And then I got, I got schools and then it, it grew and then it was, I think we are kind of hitting about 3 million turnover now on, you know, eight pound school photos.

So it's a lot, a lot of work to get to that stage.

[00:03:15] Carina: Wow, that's incredible because as you say, you could do the photography from a self-employed perspective, but actually the fact that you thought, no, I can actually grow this into something because you can't be the only person to have to do it. Right. And as you say, if you, you getting ill was kind of that sort of reminder that the business stops if you're self-employed, but it doesn't if you've got people working, working for you.

So you mentioned about dance schools. So you were running dance schools as 

[00:03:44] Carmel: well at

the No, no. So school, I was doing the photography for dance school. Sorry, just to be clear. So, uh, it was sort of around the time of X factors.

So, and I was quite a, well the kids were going off to dance schools. I ring the, and so it was quite a fashionable, you know, thing to do. They're all everywhere now. And I'd ring the dance school teacher and go or do photography. No, no, no. My parents don't want photos. Like, please just let me turn up. We are fuss free.

You won't even know we're there. And I'm someone who loves, loves to do things fast, uh, and, and set process in a bit and like, just really fast. And so we, we are photographing these children full length, half length in costumes, printed them out, packed them up and went to the show and sold them. Um, and just completely changed the industry.

'cause most people said, my parents, you know, the parents don't wanna buy these photos. And they did want to buy them. And we ended up pre COVID, I think we had about 300 dance schools that used us. If every year or every other year, depending on when their show was. Um, so yeah, there was a lot. Oh, one year it kind of really exploded and I didn't have the right people in place and every single day I was working on the business and we had sales and things.

And then on the weekend I was out lumping all the photography gear and it's quite hard work. People think photography's pushing a button, but when you're taking studio lights and big heavy cameras and you're kind of on it, and I didn't, I probably was doing literally 70, 80 hours a week for seven weeks.

Wow. Yeah. Not 

fun. that's crazy.

I didn't have a week in bed crying. No, literally. So, but again, that was just like, wow, when your business grows too fast, I didn't really have the right help, the right business advice around me and you, you're not putting the right people in the right seats. You've gotta say no.

You've gotta say I, if you are doing what used to be back then, eight pound an hour job, it's probably now a 15 pound an hour job. If you're doing a job you can teach someone else to do, you're doing the wrong job. Yeah. You've gotta.

[00:05:33] Carina: gotta

[00:05:34] Carmel: Continually move up that the kind of level you've gotta and not be doing the jobs that you can get other people doing.

[00:05:41] Carina: It's interesting that you say that you like to move fast, because that's the part, right?

Is that sometimes you just wanna, you know, you start seeing something that works and you're like, okay, I can grow this, I can grow this. But sometimes that's where the infrastructure and the processes don't, don't follow. Right? Is that, you know, you're like, I'm onto something, let's roll with it. So I am guessing, how long ago was that?

You say pre COVID. Oh, so the dance schools was, um, I started doing that in 2012, 2013, and then maybe did, my first school was 25, not to about 2000, like actual school photography. 2017, I think.

Yeah. So I'm guessing, so you've got this part where you're like, right, I'm gonna take photos at the dance schools.

How did you manage those conversations? 'cause as you say, there was a bit of resistance at the start. So to get from zero to 300 schools, I'm guessing that wasn't just an easy conversation where everyone was like, yeah, sure, we'll 

[00:06:38] Carmel: sign up

No, no. So I just say, oh, tune up. I'll give you commission. I'll be fuss free.

You won't just give a chance. I like, I basically big them 'cause I can kind of sell, but I'm not a sales person, you know, I'm not, I'm, you know, when you're desperate and you're selling yourself, you can kind of do it. And then I did end up, I remember I, I got a sales person and she was gonna be like 25,000 pounds a year, plus a little bit of commission.

It felt like the biggest thing I'd done, I now go, yeah, great. I have her back for 20 5K. Um, so,

so

we did grow it through a sales person eventually, but yeah, I just said, just let me turn up. And I'd kind of, I just kind of wore them down. I had a few little i'd, I'd done one locally through a friend and then I had another one.

Um. And it's just that I, um, I'd got divorced, uh, I'd been seriously ill, I just had to make it work. And actually there was a level, it sort of almost hit rock bottom and it actually, I had no other options. I kind of had done photography, I'd worked in hotels, so I didn't have a job that worked in with kids, so I just, I just had to do it.

I had no other options.

[00:07:37] Carina: Yeah. I was gonna ask you what was your fire in your belly?

Because sometimes, I mean, I know I'm terrible at sales, but to actually do that and to take the knock backs, there's usually some, some fire. But as you say, it's almost survival as in you've got no other 

[00:07:52] Carmel: option.

just had to do it.

And, and then when you start having success, I think when things start going well and you get that dopamine, this is fun, let's do more. Um, I can't even remember how I. Because I just had to make it work, I think, because I didn't wanna go back to weddings. I'd also with my ex-husband, done weddings and so I'd probably, getting photographing close to 500 weddings was probably enough.

Yeah.

yeah. And I needed to do something different and I, I guess I wanted to work for myself.

[00:08:21] Carina: Yeah, definitely. And, and was the sales person the first person you hired?

[00:08:24] Carmel: No, I had a woman who had helped me do the photography. 

Uh, 

and so she would, then we did editing and things, and then I had another woman just do a little bit part-time sales.

Then I kind of got a few photographers, but the trading was basically, they'd have half an hour set this up, just go and do it, and they'd come back. I'd say That was wrong. That was wrong. That was good. It was just awful. There was no training

because just trying to do everything. And I, I joked, this is my first office job.

Like, I literally hadn't worked in a corporate, I hadn't worked somewhere. I hadn't seen what great looks like when, you know, they have inductions. And I mean, it was probably. Employment law was a bit easier 15 years ago as well. It's all changed. Yeah. Uh, so I just did it through sheer force of will. And I think there was a thing when you've pre, when you're up to 10 staff members, you're in it, you can be the little firebrand in the middle.

You can bring everyone with you. And so when you are starting out, you kind of pull in people and go, okay, I wanna be on this journey. It's fun and wanna be in a small company. And then when you get to more than 10 people, that's when you have to step back. It's not quite as much fun, I think, because you've gotta go, oh, actually no, it's kind of got real now.

You know? Was some structure

[00:09:32] Carina: you say about that, about the bit that's got, you know, it's, it's real.

Did you ever think that the start when you first run your business, you've got people doing the photography, did you ever think in your mind, right, this is, I'm making this a real business? Or was it just like, just going with it, going with it and seeing where it 

[00:09:48] Carmel: took 

you?

Just going with it. And actually then I ended up going to some kind of entrepreneur things and go, oh. Then I kind of had the language about scaling and structure and the important things to do and um, I had a business coach who said, come Jane, this could be a million pound turnover business.

I was like, oh. I just was like, no, no, no. I was on about 300 k turnover. 

And then 

I think this is a really big thing is get in the right room with people who, you need to be in a room with people saying, think bigger, you can do more. I don't know when I thought it was a proper business. It just 

[00:10:20] Carina: happened.

Yeah. Just all happened where it sounded like it happened pretty fast.

Like in terms of like, just, just moving forward, when you, um, you, you mentioned about the, the team that you had at the team of 10. How did it feel like when you're passing that? Because, because when you are doing the selling, it's you, right? You are, you are in control of managing it all. When you start handing over the reins to other 

[00:10:42] Carmel: people,

I quite like delegating. Actually, one of my jobs had been in a big five star hotel and I used to run the functions on the floor, so I used to love 

telling people 

what to

do. 

So I'll just say that in public. Yeah. Yeah. I like being the boss. I'm fine with that.

Um, and also because I Mag Dunn is better than perfect. I'm fast and I think you better off doing something quickly and efficiently at 95% than doing it perfectly. And actually high volume photography, is it like, you know, we weren't doing the cover of Vogue. We were photographing these kids and some, you know, you photograph a hundred kids a couple of month, like you're not gonna get it.

Right. So it, it did actually really, really suit my personality, I think. So that was beneficial as well because we had to do a good job, but we didn't have to be perfectionist. Yeah. Um, and then I remember. It was end of the year and something I had about seven staff and I went and I had an idea and I went to supermarket, got bottles of Prosecco for everyone and put ribbons on them and gave them cards, medal, little prize giving, which I did actually keep doing for about 10 years until we had about 50 people in the team.

And I went, okay, I can't make up. And the, you know, the, the award for the best whatever. So I did love, I loved leading a motivating team because it was often school hours. I really support a lot of women in it. And because when we were dance, it just lended itself to women because it was all pink and shiny.

And I got a real kick out of being a decent employer and making a difference to people's lives by being, understanding and going, okay, we support you. As long as you do a good job. We are gonna fit in with your life and we're gonna be understanding about what's going on in your life. Because I had to do it myself when I was on my own to make a life that fitted me.

And not everyone can do that. So I 

think 

I did love having a team and being good to them. 

[00:12:21] Carina: It's interesting 'cause of what, what was the fire that started it to then, what was your fire? To grow, it seems like that's, would you say that, that you discovered 

your why?

[00:12:31] Carmel: Uh, my why was just to earn a living and be good at it and the game started and the game was fun.

Especially the game when you're, when you're doing one, you know, I 

[00:12:39] Carina: do 

[00:12:40] Carmel: this. Yeah. 

I dunno. Even never applied for a job. I never even looked at getting a job. I think maybe I didn't have any skills, have, what was I gonna do? So, um, Um, yeah, I guess it was fun to do and, and actually too, I guess actually I was never comfortable the way I looked when I was younger.

I'm really could not a very photogenic person and. I love the fact that you could take photographs, especially we photographed a lot of teenage girls at dance schools and find their angle and pose 'em in a way that was really flattering. And then they go, oh yeah, I look good in that photo. So that, that probably was my why actually is I loved the ability of photography to actually, as long as they sit right and you pose them right, stand right, you can make them look, anyone can look good in a photo.

So that was a motivation as well.

[00:13:25] Carina: I love that. I love that. That was a, a motivation, but also as you said, you were giving other people jobs and you being a, a good employer. 

Right. 

[00:13:32] Carmel: Which, 

um,

I didn't, it's, I didn't get it right all the time. Just saying, 

yeah,

[00:13:37] Carina: but the intent was

there. Right. intent was there and actually, yeah. Yeah.

And you mentioned about the, the team at at 10 and you could sort of be involved a 

lot more.

Was there a pivotal moment for you when your business started to grow, when you were realized that you had to change the way that you were working? Uh, and managing 

[00:13:53] Carmel: everyone?

Yeah. Because it turns out I'm not a very good manager. I'm impatient, I think too fast. And I say when you're small, they can just go, oh wow, she's a whirlwind.

She's bringing us with us. But actually when the team gets big bigger, you can't keep those connections with enough people. So actually, when you come in and be that whirlwind, but you haven't got connection, they just kind of go, oh, she's a bit much, sorry, this, you know, people were laughing listening to this guy.

Yeah. Um, and then it was trying to find the right kind of general manager, like someone who actually can do the day to day where I can go off and have ideas and, and come up with different ways of doing things and improve systems. Um, and stepping back. And that took me a long time. I kind of went through a few dms who weren't quite right because another thing, pay for the best people you can afford.

And I probably, sometimes I don't have an abundance mindset around money, so I sometimes went, ah, that, that's kind of, but if I had a, if I'd had a better person in place sooner, 

I 

would've. 

Done mean. In the end, I had this amazing woman who was very calm, Sue, super lovely, um, really ran a very calm ship. And so I needed someone opposite to me.

So I ended up having a team of two incredible women, Sue and Cheryl, who were calm and balanced and could be very, very honest with me. And, and we didn't have means to go Carmel. Tone it down. Don't. And so, so that's when I could fly a bit more and do the stuff that made my heart sing about growth and ideas and change.

And then I could just tell them and then step away. Because either as I come, I have no idea, and everyone go, oh my God, Carmel, we're just trying to do The other idea you came up with last week,

[00:15:32] Carina: Did you not realize that at the start? Like, because sometimes when you, you meet people and you've got pe, you hire people, you're like, oh, they're similar to me. Great. I can work with them. But actually it's a different personality that sometimes you need to working 

[00:15:45] Carmel: with.

That's the big problem is actually we all do it. We want to, we go, I like them 'cause they're a bit like me and I think I'm good. So they must be good too. And actually you need to really look at your team and balance it.

And I think there's so many more tools out there to look at your team overall and understand there's a balance and so much more education. And I guess when you are so busy growing your business, if you haven't done that learning and that education and got in the right rooms, you don't know that. And I, I do think podcasts like this, um, 

[00:16:15] Carina: that, 

[00:16:17] Carmel: that people can learn from and understand more what they need to do to grow their business in a sustainable 

[00:16:22] Carina: understand. You mentioned as well that you had a coach. How far in did you. Were you in your business before you started to sort of get that 

[00:16:31] Carmel: external support?

I was probably a good five years in and then I went to one, it was like big. Communal, uh, learning. And then I paid, you know, a lot, uh, for the coach. And then I've had a couple of different coaches and learnings.

I've been in masterminds now. Um, and that makes a huge difference getting in the room, never be the smartest or the richest person in the room. And then, you know, that's 

[00:16:54] Carina: when 

you start. It's interesting, so when you're going into these rooms, so often, you know, you, you say you're self taught. You, you didn't really, um, you know, and often when you are a business owner, you're just, you're just learning as you go.

And then you go into this room, I'm guessing a mastermind full of, full of entrepreneurs. How did you feel like the first time you started 

[00:17:12] Carmel: entering 

those arenas?

Because I, I was in the right room at the right time, so I was never the, 

I 

was probably always sort of in the middle and I'd actually, I'd had, I'd got a few badges, like I'd got a level of empirical success, so I wasn't complete imposter syndrome.

Um, and then sometimes people talk, think, wow, but we.

You are in the room where people can bring different things. So I wasn't, I think that's also important that you don't wanna be in a room, you know, there's no point when you're starting out turning a couple hundred thousand, being in a room with people who turn 50 million, because actually that's a really, really different journey.

So you've probably gotta be in the room with the people 

who 

are further down your journey, but not too far ahead because actually that it's a very, very different business. So I think I, I was, I was never the, I was probably always in the middle of the room so I could contribute and actually now I'm a mentor and a mastermind and what's really exciting is thinking, oh, I've learned in the last three years is unbelievable.

And I'm working with people and trying to help them on their journey. 

And 

it's been, uh, really empowering and really lovely to go. I have learned a lot actually, and I've come quite a long way in the last, especially the last few years has, 

been. 

Gone. I've learned a lot more in the last few years because I've had the success and then got learned even more from other people.

[00:18:25] Carina: Oh, that's fantastic. And being able 

to pass 

that 

on 

to others, I'm guessing. So you've, you've grown the business to where it's at today. If you were to go back and sort of think about that journey, is there like one thing that just, um, you'll always remember, like one big challenge or setback that you kind of almost felt like a blocker that you couldn't get past that will always stay in your mind?

[00:18:49] Carmel: probably just when I, that actually that summer that I just worked so hard and just about, had a nervous breakdown and was like, oh my goodness, how am I gonna do it? But I think there's 

just continual, 

continual challenges and it's all, everybody's all shiny and you get to this place now, I worked hard, but it's like, no, it's every week.

Something's going on. So, uh, yeah, I think, I think it's just the continual. You know, up and down of running a business and the highs and lows.

[00:19:17] Carina: Yeah. How do you manage that? Like how do you manage those? Actually let's start that. How do you manage the highs? 'cause there's an element where you need to stay grounded, right? So when business is just going really well and everything's just like flying, how do you, um, stay 

[00:19:31] Carmel: grounded? Or 

do 

you just fly

Oh, I love it. 

It's my heady place. Yeah,

I used to joke, adrenaline was my drug. It's like, yeah, we're up there. It's all fun. And, 

and 

then 

it's, 

yeah, probably I'd probably create my own problems 'cause I'd be so excited and be trying to push even more and then the team going, oh, we can't cope.

Because I think as an entrepreneur, if you've really got an entrepreneurial brain,

[00:19:51] Carina: I

[00:19:52] Carmel: it took me a long time to understand that not everyone sees the world the way that I do. And I know that sounds daft, but we need those people who like spreadsheets and everything matching and done properly and all the processes and need to do it slowly.

Like 

those 

people. 

So essential to your business, but they can't see it. When in my head I'm going, this is gonna be amazing, and I'm going, but we need processes. Like, no, no, I'll make this happen. We'll just make it happen. And you can do it when you're really in your business, but when the business get bigger, you actually have to create the plan and bring people with you because otherwise you scare them.

And, and it's not really that productive. So the highs, I love the lows. I sometimes wonder if I attract it because, um, I've said to a business I'm 

like, 

I'm at my best when the crisis hits. And he's like, do you think you create the crisises so you can really feel good about it? Well, maybe I do, but um, I've actually had a very, very challenging week this week, a real breach of trust.

It's been, uh, quite, it's probably the one of the worst thing that's ever happened to me in business. And, um, I'm fine 'cause it's crisis. I'm like, right, I'm in crisis mode, I'm managing this. And, um, I get when things go bad, I get very clear and, and, and I know what I'm gonna do. Um, that said, it's not always easy.

Take time out. You can't work endlessly and you make way better decisions when you're not exhausted and you've had some me time.

[00:21:17] Carina: Yeah. That's interesting. It's interesting that you say you sort of work well in crisis mode. Do you think that, you know, because if business is going like fully just chugging along and it's doing really well, it's almost, do you think that that gets to a point, point where it's a 

[00:21:31] Carmel: bit 

boring, 

right?

Yes. Yeah. Although now, no longer that I think I appreciate it for what it is and I just go play tennis because I'm obsessed with tennis. That's what kept me sane. That little green ball.

[00:21:44] Carina: Yeah.

[00:21:44] Carmel: I guess 

actually that tennis did really help. I mean, you find your thing that makes you happy because when I'm on a tennis court, I'm not thinking about work.

I used to joke, it was like my Prozac because it was a way of really disassociating from the business and it's good for your mental health and physical health. So I do think that's important. You need somewhere where it's just you are away from you start thinking 

about it.

[00:22:07] Carina: I was gonna say, you know, like that time 

you said you 

remember when you were doing all the hours under the sun and sometimes business is gonna pull you in to try and do a lot more hours than you really plan to do.

How do you sort of manage that and create that balance so you are not getting completely 

[00:22:24] Carmel: sucked 

back 

in

as 

you just have to carve out time?

You just have to be really disciplined because you're never gonna answer all your emails and you kind of have your red list and your green list, the stuff that has to be done today. And there's stuff that'd be nice to do today and often when there's a big problem. It just passes sometimes. Anyway, so I've, I've, I've learned to be less reactive all the time, but I'm trying to be less reactive because sometimes if you just breathe and let it go, it's gonna be okay.

But super important to take time out.

Yeah. Same time when you're starting your business, you've gotta work. I think that's what people maybe don't fully realize how in it, when you really start your business, how much 

[00:23:03] Carina: Do you 

have 

to 

do.

Yeah, definitely. And as you say, you're, you're going at such a speed. It's interesting that you say once your team gets to a certain size, you can't just make those really rapid decisions because everybody sort of pulls you back. Does that ever get to a point where it 

[00:23:16] Carmel: can be quite 

frustrating?

so I sold half the photography company to a really cool, uh, great friend Neil.

He's amazing. Neil Sweeney and he did the EOS management system. And so when I had him on board, it was kind of fun because he was kind of doing more the day to day and I was having lots of ideas and I was like, we can grow it. This was kind of 15 months ago, I sold half of it and he'd been in the business a couple of months and he said, oh, cj, can I have a little chat?

He came, he, he's a beautiful communicator and he sat down and he's going, gimme all I want cup of chase, Neil, all you talking about caramel when you come in, calm your shit. Just have a cup of tea, had a nice chat. You're scaring everybody. This is only 15 months ago, so I'm sitting here telling you all the lessons I've learned, but yeah. And um. Yeah. And that was amazing because again, I'd grown this myself. Never worked in an office, never worked in a corporate, I'd never really seen what great looked like. And I probably hadn't a way reached my limit on the business because I hadn't, I had business coaches for me, but not business coaches for the, for the team.

So heated the e os system. And actually we learned about structure and accountability charts and communication. And having him almost as a coach for me was really good. Um, because he's a huge entrepreneur and thinks fast and talks fast, but he even told me to, there's a view of that analogy, like seagull management, when you come in, fly around, squawk a lot, make lots of noise, shit everywhere and fly out.

I wasn't that bad, but I was like that sometimes

[00:24:45] Carina: I love, I love that. But I love the, the awareness there and like, you know, and the fact that when Neil said that to you, you 

were 

like, yeah, 

okay. 

I respect 

that. Because I think that's a challenge that we, we have as business owners is who is your challenger? Who is gonna tell you that actually, no, keep quiet.

This is not the time. Or do you realize that what you just did had an impact on X? Um, because how would you have found that before in terms of who would been 

[00:25:13] Carmel: a 

challenger 

for 

you?

I had, um, so Sue Ensure were really good, but they were quite calm people and I think they used to always try to frame up nicely, which like, oh no, I, I'm like, yeah, just tell me how it is.

And also no one in my business had really had that experience of other business to be able to kind of see it more broadly. And, and maybe too, because I totally respect Neil when he said 

it. 

And he's a beautiful communicator. I kind of knew it, but also I would have a, I would get quite heightened and go, I have to make this work.

Whereas like, actually I didn't have to make it work because Neil was there to take a lot of the stress and I think that probably helped me just go, it's going to be okay. 

Because the school photography business has changed hugely because there's loads more, um, people in the market. You can't grow the market because if someone, if you're at your school, someone's missing out.

We completely changed things around quality and customer service and a lot of people have copied the lighting style and things that I did and, and up their game. So while we were the market, it's very flattering that people now are using very similar, the background, the lighting style that I incorporated six or seven years ago.

But it meant you, you know, it's like any business these days, it's never easy, is it? You think you get to somewhere and you think, I'm here now. Oh, no, no, no. Something's changed in the market. So I was always kind of, um. 

You can 

get a bit obsessed with that growth. Like I've gotta do be more and you lose something and it can be quite stressful.

So it was, I think I could relax when I had Neil there to go, okay, 

it's not all 

on 

me 

anymore

[00:26:43] Carina: Mm. Definitely the load 

[00:26:44] Carmel: load

[00:26:45] Carina: and sharing the load because I guess like you start the business, it's all on you and you grow to the business to a certain level and it's still 

all, all 

on you 

and you, 

um, 

[00:26:55] Carmel: you 

know, it's a 

lot 

of weight 

on your 

shoulders

Mm-hmm. And no matter how great your team are and how supportive they are, uh, it's still the weight on you. It's still, you know, I'm the one that wakes up in the middle of the night thinking about work. But, um, but uh, but recently I just bought two residential care homes for 

children.

[00:27:13] Carina: That's incredible.

[00:27:15] Carmel: It was an accident.

[00:27:18] Carina: Friend

[00:27:19] Carmel: of mine, he's in care.

He said, yeah, they've got this great, they're insolvent. You put the money in, I'll run them. Turns out when he's buying other care homes for complex needs, he hasn't got time to help me run to actually run these care homes that were insolvent. So he ended up stepping aside and I ended up doing 70 hours, 60, 70 hours a week turning two insolvent residential care home for traumatized C child children around.

[00:27:42] Carina: been fun 

Six months.

Wow. That's 

the, I mean, 

that's quite a shift 

from

[00:27:48] Carmel: It isn't, it isn't. Because you've got a, a lot, a large team of frontline people, like, you know, maybe about 30 youth workers, or I have about 30 or 40 photographers. So there's that similarities. Both types of people do it because there's a real desire to do it.

I mean, working care is so humbling. Like there's these people who really, really care and do it from a place of love. And all of them have got their own trauma because they've had traumatic childhoods. I mean, it's like, oh, when I met everyone and it was, the business was in a really bad place and I kind of end up crying with all of them going, oh my God, because I've never, I've never experienced that.

There's people who really do it because I, decent, decent people. Um, and so there's that. And then, uh, and I actually thought it'd be all women in care, but actually there's loads of men working. 'cause we've got mainly girls in their care homes, I thought. But they've got, these kids have gotta see what great men look like.

And there's really, really, there's, I say gorgeous, like, you know, I. Beautiful, kind, gentle men who are working with these kids. So, so I thought, you know, you have this whole lot of frontline team and I thought I can be a really great employer and it kind of aligns, 'cause I can help people less fortunate than me.

Um, so there's that. So it's not mild, it's not wildly different. And the great thing is it's all offset regulated, so I can't jump in 'cause offset sets all the rules and everyone has to be qualified and people have to be registered. So I'm only running the business, I'm only doing the business side of the business and putting the right people in the right seat.

So it's, it's been good 'cause it's consolidated everything I learned on photography, but it's quite a discipline because I can't, I can go, I can kind of have ideas, but it was around, you know, procurement, better retention, better training, um, I say the business side of the business and so I'm forced to step out and I, I've been into the homes and things because I've gotta have an understanding and I pop in and say hi and.

I can't, I can't be in the business. I have to be on the business. So it's been beneficial. I've turned them around six months. They're now making a small profit, and we've gone from, requires improvement 

[00:29:49] Carina: to 

offered. 

[00:29:50] Carmel: offstead. Good.

[00:29:51] Carina: Wow, 

[00:29:52] Carmel: congratulations.

Yeah. I say I did it, I put the right people in the right seats and I got the right people who are incredible and we've done it.

And so it is exciting. As much as it's possibly something, if I'd known how the journey is gonna be, on. But then, yeah, I mean, as you say, you've helped people. And if you sort of go back, I, I sort of see a pattern here. I mean, you've, you've been able to take the learnings that you learned from running your photography business and apply them to the care home, but also you, you mentioned earlier at the start, just being able to, um, make.

[00:30:26] Carina: The, the girls doing the dance, feeling good about themselves in photography and being able to employ people and giving them that opportunity. There seems to be that, that pattern that you can do that also with, with the care 

[00:30:37] Carmel: home, 

Yeah, as 

well.

So, you know, I've got a lot of, um, one woman's had a child, so we changed your road. So it worked in another one wants to go to church every Sunday. Said, okay, cool, we'll, we'll give you that time off, but can you, and we get, you get it back. If you're good and decent to your employ, you know what, you can't do it to everyone and it has to be a two way thing.

But if, if someone's loyal and good at their job and we get it both ways, it's like, it's a really, I kind, I do get a bit of a kick outta it going, I can make a really positive difference to someone else's life.

That's 

amazing. Yeah. love 

that.

And then they're making, like, you know, we're about to, two of the girls we've got are moving on one 'cause she's going to foster because she's been with us a year, we've made really great improvements.

It's therapeutic care. And another child is now going on to independent living. And so, you know, we actually make a really fundamental difference to children's lives who've had a really, really crappy upbringing. Most of it's been on most the, the mainly it's been poor parenting and drugs, alcohol parenting and things like that.

So

[00:31:35] Carina: I bet. You know, when we talked about going to the start of your entrepreneurial journey, you would never have foresaw that you were gonna grow the photography business towards, 

[00:31:45] Carmel: it. you mentioned 4 million, uh, 

[00:31:46] Carina: 3 million. 3 million, and then all of a sudden you, 

[00:31:50] Carmel: you 

purchased 

two 

care 

homes.

Yeah. No, I was in New Zealand at Christmas. I was kind of bored. I've been out there for a long time, mum and dad, you know, I, I decided to have five weeks out there. The weather wasn't that great and the sky went, yeah, we should do this one. Oh, it's like, uh, I did it in a week. 10 days. Yeah, no, don't, it was daft.

Never buy a business in a 

week from 

the other side 

of the world

[00:32:12] Carina: Totally

[00:32:13] Carmel: like, you know. Um, and interestingly too, uh, going into business with people, you know, and friends is at times challenging. You know, my first wedding photography with was with my husband, 

who 

we didn't get on that well, and that was not 

a good 

thing to do.

Then my second, you know, with Neil, when he bought half the business, amazing guy, we had a really clear shareholders' agreement. We set out what our tasks were gonna be. We had really clear alignment that worked well. The care homes, we did do a shareholders' agreement, but we hadn't sat down and done what I would've call a good idea.

It was like your shit list, 

you sit down, and you do your shit list, sorry to swear, but that's where you've gotta sit and go. What if things could go wrong? You know, what if this happens? What if this happens? What is, what do you think about that?

And you've gotta be really, really clear on that. What are you gonna be doing? And what am I gonna be doing? If you don't do that, how are we gonna hold each other accountable? So it's interesting. I've done it in three different ways, largely on my own for most of the time. Yeah. But now, and so when people say they're gonna go into business with friends or family, like they are more likely to fail if you go into business with friends or family than if you do it on your own or with someone.

That you don't know as well. And so be really, really clear on what it is. And actually, because we had a good shareholders agreement when I bought the care homes, we could sit there and go, this isn't working. How are we gonna change it? So I've got all the shares and um, I'm two residential care homes for kids.

[00:33:33] Carina: that's, that's crazy. And so you, you are in New Zealand, you're like, this opportunity comes to you and you say you, you turned it around in a week. What was the kind of, do you think was a motivator 

[00:33:43] Carmel: for you 

to 

just 

go, 

yeah, 

let's 

go 

for 

it.

Because I, so I sold half the business to Neil 15 months ago. I played tennis, I went and did all the grass court champs.

Like I lived my dream life for the masters. You know, it was, uh, like I played in, uh, really lived this amazing life When on holiday

[00:34:01] Carina: Oh 

[00:34:01] Carmel: bored. 

[00:34:02] Carina: Mm.

[00:34:03] Carmel: I got bored. And you know, your friends are all doing stuff. And actually the kind of people that are at David Lloyd all day during the week aren't, you know, loved to lovely people, but maybe not my complete tribe.

And I needed to feel. You need, you need to have a purpose in life. 'cause a life without, without a purpose kind of has no meaning. And, and I really, I needed to do something and it was only meant to be one day a week. I was meant to just kind of be a bit of a non-exec, go up and do a bit of advice. So yeah, lesson learned on, you know, being clear on what you're doing and not do things too quickly.

[00:34:38] Carina: But you only needed 

to 

do 

something.

It's interesting because it shows you that a lot of people will listen and think, um, when you're a business owner, they think that it's all about the money. Yep. Money helps. But what you soon realize is that's not always the drive. And you do get, maybe you get to that prize, but you get to the prize and it's like, 

oh, 

okay, 

what more So the fact that you mentioned about your purpose, I think is, is, you know, in living the life that you thought 

[00:35:05] Carmel: on 

the 

tennis 

court 

or

It was, it was my dream life. Yeah. Like literally, I played at eSport and all the grass court tournament, like it was, it was pinch me moments. I actually had a few tears, God, I'm actually doing this, but I need more.

Also, I'm pretty good at tennis, but I'm not that 

good. 

Maybe if I've been winning all the tournaments, I might still be doing it. Um, but yeah, and you, you do need something. And actually, um, 

funny enough, 

Neil, before the business, he'd exited another business. He said, I need my tribe. You need to go in. And yes, sometimes employing people has its challenges and it's not always fun.

And some 

people 

let you down, but actually when you get the right team, it's awesome to be in that gang, to have that team and to be helping people be the best that they 

can be. 

And

[00:35:50] Carina: and

[00:35:51] Carmel: I miss, we recently did a vision day with the, uh, with the care homes and everyone's like, wow, this is. We're all on the same page and, and 

I 

think 

it's that team thing thing. and leading people As well. 

what I enjoy as well.

Yeah,

[00:36:06] Carina: definitely. Have you, have you ever, or it might not even just be with the care homes, when you're previously in your photography business, did you ever get to a point where you would question whether you could take the business to the next level? Or have you always sort of had that belief that you can just get, you just, you'll just 

[00:36:22] Carmel: you'll just get 

there 

no matter 

what?

I think so, but like I said, I probably got to about its limit because I'd sort of like, now it's just steady growth. Like it was all set up, actually it was doing pretty well. There wasn't massive amount of things we can change. We've done a little bit around, um, improved editing, like sort of some of the AI stuff.

So we embrace some of that, but I think I'm much more the startup, 

you know, there's that 

kind of crisis thing, you 

know? Yeah. 

And actually I'm a startup entrepreneur. I don't really, I don't really like, I got to level where the challenge had gone. I'd also been doing it for 15 years, so I think I was a little bit over it.

Yeah. 

Um, and and I needed a new challenge, but 

yeah, I I think my head reached my 

[00:37:03] Carina: limit.

Yeah. And I guess that's where it's quite good that Neil came in, because then it's almost like handing the reins over 

when the business 

gets to a 

certain level.

that's no no 

[00:37:13] Carmel: longer in 

startup 

phase.

Yeah, it was, it was perfect. And, and I know that my legacy is still gonna go on because I still go, oh, you car Jane, you photograph my kids?

I'm like, no, it wasn't me. And usually go, I go, I smoke, go. Oh wow. And then, um, they go, yeah, the pictures are beautiful, but you, because it wasn't me. Um, and uh, and, and so that I know that he's not gonna change your name 'cause it's actually got pretty good brand awareness out there. Um, and he's just gonna continue to grow it and actually put in better systems.

So it's giving more stability to the team 

as it does grow.

Yeah.

But it's gonna probably grow at a slightly slower pace because it has to be done properly now because I think it's up to. I think he's added another a hundred schools in the last year. Um, and, and he is continued to grow, but he's doing it in a more calm way.

And again, he doesn't know about photography, but like with my care homes. So he has to do it properly because he can't just go and go, I've had an idea, we're do this. because I 

[00:38:05] Carina: might done Yeah, yeah, exactly. 'cause 

[00:38:08] Carmel: can't go and do Exactly. 

Do the 

[00:38:09] Carina: the 

do the, 

photography

itself. He the right 

people 

doing 

things. Yeah. And competition. Did competition sort of come in to things with, um, like you say with the photography evolve, the market evolves.

Did you ever find that you had the competitors or just people getting a bit noisy out there on socials? And how did you, or how do you 

sort of 

[00:38:33] Carmel: Quiet in that? Or 

does 

it, 

does 

it affect you?

Uh, I 

tended not to look too much at the competition. Um, school photography was a very kind of male dominated area. I definitely was the largest female doing it. And actually, I was really clear on what I was doing. And I think it's easy with social media to be, oh, what are they doing? What are they? And know people aren't telling a true story on social media, are they?

They go, wow, amazing day today. It's like, yeah, not talking about the crap that happened yesterday, are you when your team members let you down and called in sick again? So I tended to keep an eye on the market, but 

I was 

clear on my 

path, so I didn't do that. You know, I, I didn't, I didn't get hung up on what other people were doing.

And you did, you know, when people started copying what I was doing, it was like, oh, that's terribly flattering. You know? Um, isn't this lovely? 

I've changed 

the 

market again. 

So, 

yeah, you did. I just think you've gotta take a lot of what we see 

[00:39:23] Carina: out 

there 

[00:39:23] Carmel: on socials with a, with a pinch of salt.

[00:39:25] Carina: Definitely. And, and I see that that common with a lot of successful entrepreneurs is that part of staying in your lane and not getting distracted by the competition. But also, as you say, you got copycats and the copycats are always behind you because you are always aware that the market's 

[00:39:41] Carmel: evolving.

Mm. you are 

always 

gonna 

be 

ahead 

of 

the 

game.

Although, interestingly, 'cause Neil was an amazing network and communicator, um, he reached out to a lot of these photographers, which I was like, I kind of kept everyone in arm's length.

And, um, there was the first time ever a UK school photography conference about, I don't know, a year ago, 

and 

Neil was speaking at it because he'd reached out and really networked with people in a way that I'd become quite insular and actually being abundant with your time and networking, not being hung up on the competition, but actually embracing it.

So he probably taught me another little lesson there. I probably should have embraced it. Sooner and then they've done some collaborative work around some of the, the things. Um, so I think there's a balance, but not to be hung up on the competition, but I actually think if you create a collaborative environment, you can learn more 

[00:40:32] Carina: more rather 

than kind of keeping 

everyone away.

Yeah. Was there a reason 

[00:40:35] Carmel: for you 

keeping 

everyone 

like 

you sort of

Oh, ' cause it's really brutal industry. Our telephones went down, I put it on Facebook and a competitor rang five of my schools and said, Carmel, Jane's in deep trouble. Her 

telephones 

aren't working. 

I 

think you should 

move 

over 

to 

us. 

Wow.

Yeah. Literally 'cause the school's contacted us and said, this is happening. So it was very, it's a very cutthroat industry because if I get a school, someone else is missing out on it. And I think we've got about half the senior schools in Essex. We have done really, really well. Like 500 schools. I think there's only 20,000 schools in the whole country.

The whole country. So.

[00:41:08] Carina: so

[00:41:08] Carmel: Yeah, it was quite a, so I, got burned a few times actually, which probably, and then other companies started off like, they would have their photography manager go and start their own company. So it is, I think it's a quite unusual industry 

because 

it's not 

a 

market 

you 

can grow,

[00:41:23] Carina: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:24] Carmel: you know, and it's, it's a finite market, I think in Essex is like 115 senior 

schools and about 

400 primary 

schools, so not 

that many. you know?

So, so I think that's another reason why 

[00:41:35] Carina: Yeah. 

[00:41:36] Carmel: just, um, and yeah, I won't say that. 

[00:41:41] Carina: Okay. 

[00:41:42] Carmel: So

[00:41:43] Carina: well how do 

you manage that? 'cause that's pretty brutal, right? People doing 

[00:41:47] Carmel: that, 

that's 

just 

like, 

that's 

cutthroat 

as 

you 

say.

Oh, I just like called the guy and he denied it and it was just fine because um, I'd taken so much work 

[00:41:55] Carina: off him.

I wasn't surprised. 

He 

didn't 

like me 

that much. Right, 

okay.

[00:41:58] Carmel: Alright. So it was a bit 

more you 

taking 

up Yeah,

I just, you just, you just have to stay clear on your goals and your vision and what you're gonna do. Yeah. and 

and and you know, keep 

an 

eye on things 

and be open 

to change, but being obsessed with the competition doesn't make your business better because you could go 'cause they're gonna do something different to you and 

[00:42:16] Carina: it's 

gonna 

work for them. And 

why do what 

I did 

not work for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Very true. Very true. And so you've got this, the photography business and 

you you mentioned 

it is 500 schools.

Yeah. 

There's a lot of responsibility of making sure that, I guess the quality's there. Um, everybody's like, customers are happy, you've got the team are happy. Does that weight ever sit on your shoulders, like sleepless nights 

[00:42:40] Carmel: and 

just worry? 

Or 

do 

you feel 

quite

I think the worst thing is, is because it was my name. So if people write a bad review and people write. I think sometimes it's a competition writing sabotaging and sometimes it's just, you know, parents or people venting in a kind of an unpleasant way 'cause they ring customer services.

Our customer service well we bent over backwards. Um, and when they go Carmel Jane is rubbish. And that's because they've meant, they meant Carmel Jane photography. But you know, that, that kind of hurt. And 

um, 

and kind of a pride thing 'cause it's my name on the door, it's my name on every, literally on every photo it comes to mount with car Jade.

You know, maybe if it turned back the clock, I might not have put my name on everything. Um, so there was that as quite a driver to do a good job along with. Um, yeah, kind of, you know, that pride that actually I have parents come up say, oh my goodness, my teenage daughter went, oh yeah, it's all right and let me put it on the side.

And they had a school photo up on the side, which is, you know, never done before. And people really thanking me for what we achieved with their kids. So there is that kind of thing. But, 

[00:43:47] Carina: um. 

I can't Sorry.

It's that sort of sl, 

[00:43:51] Carmel: the 

responsibility 

that just 

keeps 

you 

awake 

at 

night,

Well, and responsibility to your team, um, to the school because everyone's trying to do their job.

But I did have, like, I've got a really good production manager. I've got a really good photography manager. Uh, the people that book in the schools, I've got two women. They're incredible and they're really honor and do a great job. So yes, there was a responsibility, 

but 

everyone's sharing it a little bit because they were doing their job 

[00:44:14] Carina: it's 

just 

getting the 

right 

people doing 

a 

good 

job.

Would you say, like if you go back to the sort of start up stage when you had less people that you could, I guess, lean on to, then you've got a really big business with huge amount more responsibility, but you've got people to lean on. Do you think that there's more weight at the start than actually when you are a lot bigger just for the fact of you've 

[00:44:38] Carmel: got the 

the 

right 

team to, 

work with. Totally. Because actually as you grow, you kind of need half a person and you, you kind of make someone, can you do that bit as well. So it's not clear that often doing things that isn't really what they should be like, what their, what their real skill set is. So when you grow and also then when you've got abundance.

So if you, if you've got. 30 people working for you and employ one person. It's only, you know, a third or not 3% of your workforce increase. But actually, if you've got five people working for you and employ another person, it's a really big deal. So, I mean, another thing is employ the best people you can.

And usually you employ someone and your business grows to that. 

So I think 

it's taking that leap to employ people and do your accountability chart your, your, your charts, you know who you need. Um, but yeah, it's actually more fun when you've, and you have an idea. Another person we got, um, actually just before Neil started this incredible marketing person, you go, I've had an idea.

And, and like it just happens because there's someone doing that, whereas if there wasn't someone dedicated, so we had sales, we didn't have 

marketing person because we all kind of had a bit of a go. Yeah. Um, another one I thought, I wish I'd done 

that a few 

years earlier. 

Yeah. 

Um, so yeah, the, when you grow you can 

[00:45:43] Carina: actually 

[00:45:44] Carmel: your ideas quicker because you've got the 

[00:45:45] Carina: For people 

to 

do 

things.

Yeah,

definitely. And I guess there's that time where once you start growing, it starts, the wheel starts turning for you to hire people, but there's this also this bit in the middle where you almost know that you need them, but you can't have them yet because you still gotta get the business to X.

Or unless you start taking, I 

[00:46:07] Carmel: guess 

risks, are you 

much 

of a 

risk 

taker?

not as risky as I'd like to be and I wish I'd taken some bigger risks sooner 'cause I never had any debt in the business. It was quite a good cash flowing business. 'cause you take the photos, you start taking money on them generally a week later. Um, so I wish I'd taken bigger risks. I wish I'd had a more robust recruitment process, um, sooner because getting the right people, that's life changing when you've got the good people.

[00:46:32] Carina: Yeah. I wish I've actually 

taken risks 

Yeah. 

[00:46:34] Carmel: Would you say 

that 

the 

[00:46:35] Carina: care 

home 

is 

a 

[00:46:36] Carmel: risk, 

was 

a 

risk.

It was an accident. Huge risk. Yeah, no. Um, sorry. Yeah. No, it was, it was, it was a risk because it was an sector I didn't know about, but I didn't think it was a risk. I just thought it was an investment where I could get to, oh, play tennis most of the time in one or two days a week, do a bit of work. And it didn't turn out like that. But I am, I am loving it.

We had a, a little setback this week with a lack of trust with someone who I really trusted, and they have completely let me down. Probably in the worst in a way that's been the worst that's ever happened, but it's kind of fine. I'm in crisis mode, it'll be fine, we'll sort it out. And actually when you just go, well, it's good.

I know now before anything worse happened. Um, and it's gives me a chance to catch my breath and go, who's the right person for that seat? Mm-hmm. Um, so, so the only thing is I kind of just about got there where I was like, yeah, it's really running really well and I can step back a little bit. I have to have 

to 

jump 

back in. 

Yeah. But, uh. Just looking at the idea that I've got, I've got the core team are amazing. I've got really good people who understand that I'm not quite like other managers that have been in care and they get me and they're like my vision and they wanna be part 

of the gang and part of the team and 

and and be on the journey 

with Yeah. It's quite 

[00:47:53] Carina: humbling. Again, 

[00:47:54] Carmel: it's kinda lovely that that's

[00:47:55] Carina: Definitely. 

And as you say, you operate well in crisis mode, so the fact that you are, you sort of had to go through some, some tough times with the care home has probably given you more clarity on how to, 

[00:48:07] Carmel: to 

move things 

forward and get 

the 

business 

to 

where 

it is 

now.

Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully by the end of the year will be calmer. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's part of that, it's part of the journey. I'm 

not bored. 

Yeah. 

Which is good. Yeah. 

[00:48:19] Carina: still 

mention play 

Tina four 

times a week, 

so it's not 

the 

end of 

the world.

That's, that's always good. And if you were to go back, if you were to speak to Carmel, starting again, like the photography business or even if you were.

To say, you know, before you, you took on the challenges at Care Home, what would be the pieces 

[00:48:36] Carmel: of 

advice 

that 

you would 

give to 

Carmel?

Well, the care homes, I wish I'd got good HR in sooner because I thought someone was doing it and they weren't doing that well. And I wish I'd caught in 'cause the, the company was insolvent because they didn't have particular processes.

They were using really outdated contracts. There wasn't clarity. So I wish I'd done 

that. 

And actually starting 

out, 

if there's a, if there's a 10 or 15 pound an hour job, you can, you've just gotta get rid of the jobs that you can give to other people sooner because then you've got space to grow and have the ideas and do the, the kind of blue sky thinking.

Um, get in the right rooms with people, the appropriate room for your level of growth as well. And, and have, and have people around you that you can trust. Um, 

and, 

and know that.

[00:49:20] Carina: that

[00:49:21] Carmel: I think, do you know, I almost kind of think if I'd known how much hard work and how much my life I would given over to, I dunno whether I would've done it.

I'm here now so I can say it was all worth it. Um, so, and, and get people around high fi a high slow fire fast, but get really robust recruitment because it was a, it was because a woman who's now my production manager, she's lovely being with me years. And she said she turned up, I said, oh, I spoke to her on the phone.

She said, come in for a chat. And I turned up and said, where's your cv? She said she was only young. Just come in for a chat. And basically I I, I employed her in about 10 minutes. 'cause I like, I need people. Good, you've got a job, you're a photographer. Next week come And because it was just growing so fast.

I mean I wouldn't do that now. Um, so get the right people, get right recruitment, be brave when you do it. Be 

brave, 

but 

tempered with being 

sensible 

I think. Yeah. Um, 

[00:50:09] Carina: I 

guess it's 

difficult, too fast.

Yeah. You mentioned the be brave. Is there something that's kind of you, you think about in terms of like, you wish you, you know, we spoke about the taking risks, but anything that 

[00:50:21] Carmel: from 

a 

brave 

perspective, 

you're like, 

do you 

know what, I wish 

I 

was 

braver 

there.

yeah. Like, I could have grown. I, I wish I'd been braver about getting, you know, a really good sales person and it seemed like a lot of money and that like, you cannot grow your business without sales. And like, I was fairly good at having a bit of go at sales, but I wasn't a sales person. And so actually taking the 

[00:50:39] Carina: risks that 

you didn't get the right 

people and and you, 

you 

need sales.

And

then, um, with, 

I 

mean with that, 

you, 

you're hiring 

someone and there's that, that investment. Right. You know? And I guess when you, you mentioned about hiring the team and, and 

getting 

the right people, 

there's that part 

where 

you're sort 

of holding 

back, right? Because you are having to pay out, there's an investment, right.

When it comes to hiring people and hiring the right people, 

[00:51:09] Carmel: would 

you say 

that that 

sort of 

might 

have 

been something that 

held 

you back?

Yeah. Because you, you know, they might be on, you know, what their annual salary is, but you could only see it as a monthly salary and you've just gotta see if the, if the, the people doing the right things.

And it might mean you grow slightly slower because you're paying out wages, but you're not gonna get burnt out. You've 

got 

really 

clarity on 

how you're gonna think. 

Um, oh yeah. So, yeah, I just, 

[00:51:32] Carina: the right 

people. 

because when 

you've got the 

right 

team 

around 

you, Yeah, definitely. And I can, I can relate to that as well. And I love your story, the fact that you sort of, you know, you talk about the start and it's very much going through survival and you're, you're doing photography, start of self-employed and then you've got your photography business to 3 million is fantastic and incredible.

And the fact that you've then purchased two children care homes as well, that you are managing, I mean that's an incredible story in itself. To be able to take on that as and be able to turn that around is, is amazing. So I think anyone listening today will surely be be inspired by your journey and just not to be afraid to, to make things happen.

And I get the impression you have a lot of self-belief as well, which is something that's really, really key because if you've 

[00:52:21] Carmel: gotta believe in 

what 

you 

are 

doing. 

be

[00:52:23] Carina: To be 

[00:52:23] Carmel: able 

to 

make 

it happen?

Yeah. I think, um, if I could, like I say to young people these days, I think if I could give 'em two things as confidence and bravery, 'cause I think that is missing and the way the world's changed, 

um, I've actually always 

been super confident, 

maybe too much sometimes, but, and I have. And so I've just 

kind 

of believed 

I can do it and then the more you do 

it, 

the 

easier it gets.

And I think that whole, yeah, brain changes. Neuroplasticity. Well I've recently done some, uh, like personality tests 

and 

my entrepreneur. 

Sort of scale has gone even higher. And so also realize it's a journey. So you kind of can't, if you're starting out, you're not gonna be, your brain's not gonna be the same as someone who's 20 years down the track, because I've gone through that thing and all that learning and how our brains have changed.

But I just found it really interesting, 

[00:53:07] Carina: like, oh, you know, this 

is kind of 

who 

I'm now 

and 

what 

I

do. Yeah, definitely. And that's where it comes in with the journey, right? Is, is that whole learning and naturally you've got to learn to make mistakes. You've got to learn all these things because if you don't, you're just 

[00:53:21] Carmel: effectively 

reading a textbook 

and 

applying that 

and 

not 

really 

making 

that

happen. And you're gonna make mistakes. It's gonna happen. They all happens to the best of 

the 

[00:53:29] Carina: people 

way 

more 

successful. 

[00:53:31] Carmel: I've made them made loads of mistakes.

Yeah. But 

[00:53:33] Carina: and being 

[00:53:35] Carmel: yeah. You okay with 

it as well. I joke, you know, I'm, I'm just maybe 

slightly 

better at 

making 

money 

than I'm at 

[00:53:39] Carina: amt losing 

it. 

[00:53:40] Carmel: We 

[00:53:40] Carina: do 

make 

mistakes.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely,

And so for those that have been listening today, hopefully you've found Carmel's journey really inspiring and there's definitely some, some insights and tips that you can take from that.

So I just wanna say a huge thank you for coming on today. I've really, really loved 

[00:53:56] Carmel: talking 

with 

you 

and 

getting 

to 

know 

you 

and, 

and 

hearing 

[00:53:58] Carina: story. So thank 

you.

Brilliant. 

And thanks 

this 

[00:54:01] Carmel: I 

think it's 

brilliant. 

Good luck with it. 

Thanks 

everyone 

for 

[00:54:04] Carina: today.