From Diageo Sales to School of Facilitation | Kirsty Lewis on Self-Belief & Purpose

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business, host Carina McLeod, founder of eCommerce Nurse, sits down with Kirsty Lewis, founder of School of Facilitation, to dive into the journey from corporate sales at Diageo to building a thriving facilitation business, exploring self-belief, purpose, and the psychology of entrepreneurship.

Chapters:

[00:00:50] Introduction to Kirsty Lewis
[00:02:25] From Corporate Life to Entrepreneurship
[00:05:56] Leaving the Diageo Duvet
[00:14:02] Birth of School of Facilitation
[00:17:24] Overcoming Self-Worth Challenges
[00:25:05] Social Media Strategy and Brand Awareness
[00:35:44] Building SoFest - The Facilitation Festival
[00:44:15] Lessons Learned and Advice for Entrepreneurs

💡 Topics Covered:
✅ The unexpected journey from Diageo sales executive to facilitation trainer and business owner

✅ How one transformative workshop in 2007 sparked a complete career pivot

✅ Navigating the fear of leaving corporate security and building something from scratch

✅ The critical role of therapy and inner work for business owners

✅ Why self-worth and self-belief are continuous challenges in entrepreneurship

✅ Building a business across three models: corporate, community, and festival

✅ The financial and emotional reality of launching a festival for facilitators

✅ Using fitness and extreme challenges as tools for mental clarity and resilience

✅ The importance of investing in yourself and knowing when to delegate

✅ Creating authentic brand awareness through social media and networking

💪 "Your business is a massive mirror to your psychology."

🔥 "I would trust myself more and know that what I was talking about was hitting the nail on the head."

💡 "The right clients find me at the right time. It genuinely works out."

📌 If you've ever wondered what it takes to leave corporate comfort and build a purpose-driven business, or you're navigating your own entrepreneurial journey and need to hear the real truth about self-belief, burnout, and resilience, this episode is for you.

🔔 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest: One thing I say to everybody is get a therapist. We all need a therapist, 

especially business owners, because one of the things that is gonna get challenged continuously is your perception of self, your self-worth. Who am I to do this work? Anything small, T traumas are gonna show up like big T traumas.

I'm, hopefully you're doing some work on those already. If that's been the case, it all comes up. Like your business is a massive mirror to your psychology.

 Welcome to your mind, your business, the podcast that dives into the real grit of entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Corina McLeod, founder and fitness fanatic, and today we have a special guest, Guest Lewis from the School of Facilitation.

[00:00:50] Host: Welcome, Guest.

[00:00:52] Guest: Thanks for having me.

[00:00:53] Host: We've already been chatting, so we've been getting to know one another, which is great. So I think this is gonna be definitely an exciting conversation. So I'm really keen to just first off, share with the audience a bit about who Guest is today, and then I'm gonna hit rewind and find out about your whole entrepreneurial journey.

So who is Guest? 

[00:01:11] Guest: That's a great question, isn't it? all of us start with a label. I am a founder. I am a sister, a best mate. A geek when it comes to mark pens and post-it notes. I am, someone who can talk for hours about how to design and then facilitate amazing workshops that create change.

like you, I love my sport. We've just been talking about that in terms of crazy challenges, whether it's a half Ironman or racing across the Atlantic on a race, a small race boat, or skiing down big blacks. I'm also, yeah, that, that's me. But I run my own business and I have done since two, beginning of 2008.

Never thought that would happen. So I think when we go back, I'll have, I'll be saying the younger version of me had no idea this was coming.

[00:02:05] Host: that's really interesting. 'cause that, that seems to be a common thing actually with a lot of business owners is actually, did you really think that you were gonna go into business at the start? So I guess we'll hit rewind then, and, to really understand what was it that, what is your career?

What was your career before and what, really triggered you into creating your own business? 

[00:02:25] Guest: good question. So I am definitely a product and my parents, let's just, I wanna rewind to them. They were both born in 1948, so if you use your brain, they are the product of World War ii.

They wanted the best for me and my brothers. And we were all born in the seventies. So we were told from a very young age, you go to school, you get your GCSEs, you get your A levels, you go to university, you get a job in the graduate market, you then buy a house, you get married, you have a dog, 2.4 children done.

So this was the, sort of, drill and un like a unconscious messaging that I, I had all through, my teenage year like. From seven to teenage years to university. So I did everything up to getting the graduate job and I started in the drinks industry. I had a, an amazing, I was very lucky post uni.

I got a job with, bass brewers who are now owned by Coors, Molson Coors. And then I went and worked for Guinness and I was in the commercial team, so I was in sales. I never wanted to be in sales in my head. Your British listeners will get this. The double glazing sales man came into my mind, or the car sales person, and I was like, oh, I don't wanna be a sales person.

It feels disingenuous. However, I ended up in account management. Actually realized it's about building great relationships. And then Guinness morphs into Diageo, which is the big drinks conglomerate, and they own amazing brands like Johnny Walker, bellette Label, or Bailey's or PIMS for the uk. Guinness, obviously Smirnoff.

And I just got to work for them for eight years and had the most amazing opportunities and ended up in a global sales role, which brought me to learning how to design and then. Train sales workshops. and it was in April, 2007. I've got very clear, there was a date, it was around the seventh because I wrote it down.

A friend of mine invited me to a workshop he was testing and it was at the Queen's Club in London. And I arrived on my bike, rocked in very casual, and, as the workshop started, they're like, so what's, the outcome you want to achieve in life? Literally Corina. I was like, what? I'm, in a global role.

I play hockey every weekend. I party really hard. I'm mean living in London. Life is good. But I wrote this really facetious outcome down, which was, it is April, 2009 and I am a an NLP and sales trainer and coach, and I am 5,000 pounds a month. I just thought that was the most ridiculous statement. Never would come true.

By the end of the workshop. I'm cycling back to where I lived, just outside of Clapham Junction, and I ring one of my bestest buddies, an Australian Simone. And I won't do her accent, but I said to her, Hey, I think I want to leave Diageo and I want to become this trainer and sales coach. And she was just like, maybe she's oh, I think that's a brilliant idea.

I think it'd be awesome. And that is where it truly started because I was so convinced I was gonna stay in the corporate world. I was gonna work my way through the ranks, even though I was feeling pretty uninspired and unhappy at that time, I now look back. I didn't realize it when I was in it. That basically that one workshop started, like the unraveling and a rebuilding process that I went through during 2007, working with coaches and talking to key people and, mentors and friends around.

Okay, so what do I want to do? What is important to me? And that's how it all started.

[00:05:56] Host: Was it quite scary that moment of realizing, because you've, when you're in the corporate world, there's you feel like you're secure. You feel like never, the rug's never gonna be taken from under, your feet.

[00:06:08] Guest: absolutely. and this was my choice. So this wasn't, so this was pre redundancy era, pre being able to get a payout. So I was like, oh, I wanna do something different. And no one else had done this. no one I knew in the corporate world, my friends had left. And set up their own business, and especially doing something that I was proposing that I wanted to do, which was training and coaching and development.

So I reached out to key people that were already doing it, that I knew of and said, Hey, can I have a conversation with you? That was one thing, and I'd recommend that to anyone. I also work with a coach to really examine my, values and beliefs. Because many of your listeners will know that if you dunno what your values and beliefs are, it doesn't matter what behavior or what skills you learn, you need to have it.

You need those clear, deep down because they're the things that create change in our, ways of being and doing. So that really helped. I didn't talk to my family about it early on because I knew they would, they're risk adverse. Like I've told you. They want me to go and get like the corporate jobs, da.

Bless dad. He did say to me, when I finally told him three months after I'd made my plans, he was like, oh, does that mean you're gonna lose your BA gold card? Because I was traveling so much travel to that sort of status and I just remember looking and going, yeah, most likely. So it was scary. And I look back now and I go, okay, I think I did some of the things right in that I did my work.

excuse. Sort my shit out at that point, but obviously it's a forever peeling the onion, like doing, the D. So yeah. And then I remember resigning on my boss and pushing an envelope across the table and him just looking at me, the liver ply and just going, what You are leaving? I was like, yeah, I'm giving you three months notice.

'cause I also had some amazing business trips coming up. I wanna see this project out. So I left at Christmas 2007.

[00:08:03] Host: So it's a big step. So then you've got this idea and you know what you wanna do, but I'm guessing there's this period in between where you've got to make that happen where I guess the, clients or the, it's not necessarily rolling in from day

[00:08:20] Guest: correct. So one of the things I did do though, before I even left the corporate paycheck I had, so in the world of training and development, there's lots of. Solo people were running their business. There's also medium and large size training companies. So I went and met a lot of medium sized training companies and got interviewed by them.

So I was then on their books to be, we call it an associate, you might call it, contractor, subcontractor. So I knew already that I had. These relationships in place that the, work would come and I just needed to go and do some work, like work placement shadowing. And so I saved up enough money to cover myself for like the four month period before I knew I'd even see anything being paid.

[00:09:04] Host: Sounds, that's, really organized actually,

[00:09:07] Guest: I look back and say, as I say that, I'm like, wow, that is very organized me, but I do think you have to, otherwise you get catapulted out of corporate life. And you said something earlier like it's quite safe. I called it leaving the. Diageo duvet.

'cause suddenly I had to work out how do I pay myself?

Like I remember ringing my accountant about four months in when I knew I had some money in the bank and saying, when, can I pay myself? And he was like, Guest, he was a big Irish guy. You can pay yourself whenever you want. Just don't take anything. That's your VAT. I said, oh, and make sure you save some tax money.

Oh, okay. And that was just revelatory, telephones. Setting up your phone, setting up your computer. I never had to do any of that.

Like I had no idea what to do. Admittedly, I had some useful friends. That's why I'd say to anyone setting up like, find your useful friends who can help you. don't be afraid to ask for help.

[00:09:57] Host: Yeah, definitely. Because you've got that experience. You've got experience in sales. And then you mentioned about training, but there's, the one part that's missing with the business is there is no playbook as such. Yeah. Of where you also have to wear every different hat under the sun.

[00:10:11] Guest: And I didn't. Truly appreciate that to begin with. And also we're in 2007, 2008, so I'm a little bit older in that 2007 is when Facebook started people, 2007 is when LinkedIn started. 'cause I was one of the first people to sign up. I now realize, and so the need in social media LAN wasn't there.

However, the need for networking was like we did in person chatting and talking to people and Not being afraid to ask for help or who needs some work doing and sending out emails and waiting for no responses. So it was a slightly different marketplace as well.

[00:10:50] Host: Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned about sending out emails and not getting any responses. So you've already got an idea by being an associate or contractor. Did that, was that as plain sailing as you planned? Or were there those knock backs that you, might not have anticipated?

[00:11:06] Guest: In terms of In the contracting? Yeah, definitely. 'cause I think it's very easy 'cause when you're first starting out, there is a need, there's a bit of self-worth and value, like these inner beliefs and am I good enough? Do people want me? And therefore we often say yes to a lot of work. Then you do the work and you're like, oh, that's so not the work I should be doing.

And I've said yes for the money and not because of the my capability to do it, or it's the right subject or the person I'm working with. So there were a couple of times I'd say there was a mismatch of people I'd gone to do some work for and with. And as soon as we started working, I'd be like, oh yeah, that relationship isn't right.

So that was one thing that was tough, I think. Also then I went the other way. I got really comfortable working for one company and they were brilliant. They gave me so many opportunities and that was great. until I accidentally hacked them off by writing an article on LinkedIn, which at the bottom of it, a good call to action, which is I am a coach for facilitation trainers.

And for some reason they took umbridge to that and said I was stealing their business. They're a sales training business,

[00:12:16] Host: Oh, okay.

[00:12:17] Guest: but I wasn't stealing their business.

The owner got very upset. And then slowly, over six months, all my associate work disappeared.

[00:12:24] Host: Wow.

[00:12:25] Guest: And that was around 20 15, 20 16. However, as many of us know though, when gaps appear in our diaries, it's creating that space for something else to come.

And bizarrely Diageo came back to me. I'd done no work for Diageo, after leaving them, which sounds a bit weird 'cause a lot of people go leave and then go straight back in to businesses. And they came to me with a really. Awesome project around sales and coaching and training, and that just suddenly took on a life of his own and gave me the confidence that I could do a lot of my own director client work.

[00:12:58] Host: Did that knock your confidence just when you lost all those

[00:13:01] Guest: I remember talking at the time, I had a French boyfriend, Gil. He was oh my God. Opinionated. But he'd be like. Locus, what's the fuck, what's the problem? go find other work. 'cause he was a contractor as well. And I was just like, yeah, but I've been working with this company for eight years.

Like it's been super reassuring and I'm really good at what I do for them. And suddenly it's oh, I've gotta go and find my own clients. But it was around that time as well. So 20, so just go backwards again. 2011, my mom passed away, of cancer and I stayed in a. I probably stayed in the associate role too long, but it was, I called it plug and play.

It was comforting. I didn't have to think a lot so I could, I didn't process the death, but, my mentor two years later said, I don't think you've processed your grief. I think you need to do some work. Met and she introduced me to an amazing coach, started to do some really deep, family system work.

And from there, school of Facilitation was, born actually. So SOF is only 10 years old.

[00:14:02] Host: Amazing. So you went into to the coaching first and then it's interesting 'cause it's like the opportunity then comes, as you say, when you've got that quiet period. And you also mentioned like self-worth and self-belief. Did that sort of come into play at that time?

[00:14:18] Guest: I think, firstly, the questioning of self-worth, if someone doesn't want me, am I good enough? And then going, but I actually wanna do my own thing. Oh my God, can I actually do that? and is this, so School of Facilitation is all about supporting either in-house learning and development teams, trainers, leaders, and freelancers in their, it's really niche design, delivery facilitation skills.

And I was like, do people really want that? am I gonna be able to make a living? Being that. The answer is yes, by the way, but it was one of those moments of, but can I do it? But I don't think the self-worth question goes away. I think we're always working on it.

[00:15:00] Host: and it is interesting though, there's that point where, you, you've lost. You've been pushed into this direct part, but then at the same time you've been in a, in a sales place where almost sales is your strength. So you, are being pushed into doing then direct sales, for your own business

[00:15:23] Guest: And it feels really different to coaching, don't they say, we teach what we need, or something like that. and so yeah, having to do my own direct sales. I love client conversations though. I find them very easy to sit, ask them loads of questions, truly understand their needs, and then propose a, or make some suggestions of what a great solution can be.

And I didn't realize that isn't true for everybody.

[00:15:47] Host: yeah. Definitely not. But I guess, so you are in this place now where you're right. I'm gonna get direct sales. I've created the school of facilitation. I'm guessing just saying that it all sounds like it's all plain sailing, but I'm guessing you've had some real highs. Is there a real knock back that you remember?

[00:16:06] Guest: one thing that's coming to my head, so I either work with corporates or the freelancers and I remember the day I was running the first in-person workshop for the freelancers and I got off a bus on Chancery Lane and burst into tears 'cause I was really scared that I was gonna be found out. What I meant by that was in my head was like, oh, but what I've got to teach and share is not of value to these people.

And I remember ringing a really good friend, Sarah, just going, I don't think I can do this. She was like, come on, get in there. You know what you've got to offer is the right thing people, because people were paying me. And that felt and it was in my head, their own money, and I was like, oh, I'm selling B2C business to consumer.

I've had a reframe on that in the last two years, is I think I'm, I'm. selling into other entrepreneurs or enterprises. an awesome woman, Laura Payne Stanley gave me the language of B two E. So you're selling business to entrepreneur, business to enterprise. And I was like, yeah, I'm not selling to the end consumer 'cause my hair got all wrapped up that it's their personal money that they're spending to come and hang out with me.

And then I'll be like, I can't charge those big tickets. Numbers that, the powers that be tell me I should, and then I underplay everything, which is not the right thing. Whereas you, I can write a corporate proposal, put a big number down, and I'm okay. Which sounds a bit arrogant, but I can,

[00:17:24] Host: it's interesting just that slight shift and then you see it differently. But I think, the fact that, and probably those that are listening 'cause you come across, very confident in what you do. And just hearing that there's a point where, you have those moments where you're in tears and you're questioning yourself. 

[00:17:42] Guest: and I think, one thing I say to everybody is get a therapist. We all need a therapist, 

especially business owners, because one of the things that is gonna get challenged continuously is your perception of self, your self-worth. who am I to do this work? anything small. T traumas are gonna show up like big T traumas.

I'm, hopefully you're doing some work on those already. If that's been the case, it all comes up. Like your business is a massive mirror to your psychology.

[00:18:14] Host: And, the therapist part is interesting, but I guess there's also this part of resilience that you need when running a business. And you mentioned about fitness and sport and everything. Is that kind of why you do some of those crazy challenges to, help you Ooh. balance that out?

[00:18:31] Guest: I think I do the crazy challenges 'cause it's a stretch and I go, can I actually do a half Ironman? So if anyone doesn't know what is included in a half Ironman, it's 1.9 k, open water swim, it's 90 kilometers on the bike and then it's a half marathon. so I came in second to last and I did it in like just eight hours.

some people do it in four. But for me it was, I was saying to you earlier, it was like, it's about the training and I do my best thinking when I'm running swimming, like on the bicycle. And it just helps me process. And even now, like every day I do some form of fitness, whether it's, it is yoga or it is a run or it's weights, I have to do something. Because it's just, it sets me up for the day. and I do it in the morning. I find it hard to train at night. And I'm not one of those people that can do that. And I think if you are not, so one of the things I talk about, in school of facilitation is the you of your business model, and you've gotta look after yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually.

'cause if you're not covering all those off, like if you are not firing all cylinders, your business isn't either.

[00:19:44] Host: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I guess that's where it takes its toll is that, people think sometimes when running a business, you're sitting there and everything's all right because look, you've got other people helping you out and doing other things. But it takes, its, takes a mental toll.

[00:19:59] Guest: And there are times that I've probably, we use the language now of burnout, don't we? And there are times that I've probably taken myself to that edge, but I'm so bloody optimistic, Host that I'm just like, I'm fine. I'm gonna have British fine. I probably was on the verge of a breakout, a breakdown or a break.

maybe a breakthrough as people then say, but We used to have a membership and I started, felt like there was an imbalance that I was giving lots and people weren't like enjoying it or I challenged my, I questioned myself like, am I doing the right thing? And so I was doing lots of extra work. I do run three business models, which I'm told is a bit crazy 'cause I have a corporate business model.

I have this, the community and the collective, which are lots of open classes. And then this year I put on a festival

for facilitators and trainers and we're doing it again next year. Yeah. That all three very different kind of ways are working.

[00:20:55] Host: But I guess it goes back to what you were saying about with the races like. You're stretching

yourself, so you're doing almost the same, With your business?

Yeah.

[00:21:05] Guest: I enjoy it as well. and the, my commercial bros, and it's always the men versus women are like, Guest, let's look at your numbers. the corporate makes you money. Everything else, you lose money. I'm like, yeah, but where do I get the most happiness? They're like, in that case, you need to start charging more.

I'm like, and then the whole self worth, can I charge more? Comes in,

[00:21:25] Host: Oh, fascinating. But the, bit where you mentioned about the burnout. Yeah.

Was there any signs, like how did you know that you were hitting that point where actually you can't do everything?

[00:21:39] Guest: Yeah. Tired. a lack of energy to maybe even go do my training 

for sure. I suddenly eat badly. Can down a whole tub of Ben and Jerry's fish food without thinking, that's not a good sign, is it? then live with the regret the next day. also just starting to fall out of love with, the work and the conversations I was having.

And it, just feeding like the emotional rollercoaster of some days. It was great. Other days I felt like rubbish. yeah, that's probably. My, my key, my signals 

to myself. 

[00:22:18] Host: And how did you get yourself out of that? Because we talk a lot about burnout, but like you mentioned breakthrough, which I thought was a great sort of spin on, on the words there because there's so much focus on, oh, I'm burnt out. But then how do you, recover? 

[00:22:34] Guest: So I think, 'cause I didn't realize I was probably in that space and I was on the edge of it. Sometimes I, I keep adding things into my world. That's my problem. So I had to take something out. So in this instance, it was the membership. and I felt very guilty for closing the doors and, but actually everyone was fine with it, that I know it serve its purpose.

We've taken what we need and just taking things off the table for me is the right thing to do. And then weirdly, starting more, act more sport and activity helps me then. Like process and move through. I think also, and it's something I've only worked out in the last probably four or five years, is active rest.

And as an, someone who loves her fitness, you'll know that this comes as a challenge to people who love their fitness. But you need a rest day. Now rest can come in seven. I've learned recently like seven different ways. Like you can have, social rest. So you're with people, but you're not like taxing your brain.

You can have artistic rest, you can have physical rest. So like an element of movement but not necessarily stressing your system. I think being more consciously aware of that has definitely helped me. And then I love my sleep though, so that's definite priority in the whole world.

[00:23:44] Host: Yeah. Have you always been so self-aware?

[00:23:47] Guest: That's a good question. I dunno, I'd need to ask my brothers. I think probably yes, but I definitely went down a rabbit hole in my late twenties, early thirties and it just definitely, I remember reading Seven Habits of Highly Effective People and it was 1999. 'cause I can actually see where I was reading it and where I was living at that time in London and just being like.

Wow. Oh my God, this is awesome. And then the next one was, who Moved My Cheese? Another old school classic. And then I just got to work with some amazing leaders at Guinness who just put us through very deep personal development workshops and programs that just blew my head up and I was like, ah, okay.

This is cool.

[00:24:31] Host: it's interesting 'cause sometimes I. That corporate part is a good grounding to some degree, not only from a knowledge and experience perspective, but as you say that development support that sometimes, people that going into a business that don't have that background are thrown in and, don't have that.

[00:24:49] Guest: I do. Now look back, I dunno if other people on the podcast have spoken about this, that you sometimes look back and you go, oh yeah, actually, I can see why I am and who I am and how I got here by looking backwards to come forwards.

[00:25:05] Host: Yeah. And you mentioned earlier about, so 2007 I think was when, yeah. First with LinkedIn and, Facebook, of course, it's blown up now and it's almost, who can shout the loudest? Do you find that, do you get distracted and drawn into my God. So I am, some people go to me on LinkedIn. Oh, I can see, so and so and so and so and and I'm like, yeah, but I'm a LinkedIn hall. Have you seen how many people I'm connected to? I just made an effort over time to, to build my connections because I knew it would amplify my message and it was an absolute tactical decision.

[00:25:40] Guest: Versus you hear other people going, I will only connect with you if I know you.

And I'm like, yep, that's okay. That's your strategy. But mine is. I need some, like even some of my old colleagues, God, I just see you on LinkedIn all the time. And I'm like, good. That's really good. I need to be, it's about brand awareness.

if, that's one thing I learned about Guinness. You want, you need brand awareness and that's where your social media comes in, but where do people actually convert and buy? For me, it's often in our one-to-one conversations or through newsletters, and word of mouth. In my industry. So people go, oh, have you heard of School of Facilitation?

Have you heard of, so Fest, you need to go and talk to Guest. So I get quite a few people just messaging me going, so and so said, we need to come and talk to you. So social media for me, and I love Instagram because I just play it out on stories like my life. And again, it's just awareness, brand awareness, and I've got no shame.

I'm a massive extrovert. I'll cry if I need to. And I have done, like last year when we were doing so fest, I suddenly had a, it was a Friday afternoon and I was looking at the numbers. I was also in a masterclass management to be doing some learning. And I suddenly had this dawning realization that the spreadsheet I'd been working from was reporting the figures incorrectly.

And, the gap was larger than I thought. And I literally just burst into tears and I was like, it's 30 k. We need to find.

[00:27:03] Host: Oh, wow. so I guess if you are quite comfortable with sharing then on, and you see the benefits from a, brand awareness and personal branding, then you don't get distracted by competition or other people in your space.

[00:27:20] Guest: Actually, what I find really delightful about the world of training and development, it's a really, it sounds wanky, but quite an inclusive space and people are really supportive of one another. So there are a couple of other businesses out there that do the same as I do, but we all just talk. And it's not about fixing prices or anything, it's like, how's business?

what are you working on? Like, how can we help you? and I know I come with a very big abundance mentality and it's a big value of mine. and so it. Other people have that. So I sometimes I do absolutely like everybody else, look at what they're doing and go, oh, how did you get that contract? Oh, I want to do that.

But then I genuinely always have this belief that the right clients find me at the right time. and it works out. It genuinely works out. 

[00:28:09] Host: Is there anything that like to today from previous experience or. Or just in terms of what moving forward and how you wanna grow your business, that scares you.

[00:28:19] Guest: Just myself getting in Miami. I've really noticed that. I thought you were gonna ask me a different question, like what would you do differently? But I'm like, what would I have done sooner? It's like actually just have bloody self-belief and not in an arrogant way, because I'm not arrogant. and one of the reasons I didn't stand and bang the drum for everyone needs to learn to be a better facilitator or a better workshop designer is I didn't want to appear arrogant.

I didn't want to appear like I was blowing smoke up my own ass. Which actually probably is a bit detrimental 'cause you need to have some element of. Inner confidence and just talk and walk your walk. You don't need to be like, I, let me go back the other way. I think there's some people out there who are influencers in their own lunchbox and they bang on about, I don't know, funnels or, how to market yourself or how to do X, y, Z, and I've lifted the lid on some of those people, followed them and then gone on some of their events.

Andre's gone. Oh my god, that was rubbish. And what they're brilliant at is marketing,

but they're not so great at some of the execution, but they have devout followers that are all preying at the altar of.dot on

[00:29:31] Host: Yeah.

[00:29:32] Guest: and, I never wanted to be that person to be adulated like that, but weirdly, people are like, oh, you are Guest.

I'm like, hi. yeah.

[00:29:40] Host: So you gradually, as you say, word of mouth, and, gradually build on that. But I guess now you know that you, can play on it more.

[00:29:48] Guest: Yeah, and I think again, it's back to where we started the conversation about doing your inner work is I am showing up authentically and I will all just be me and I'll never make a claim that I can do something for your business that I haven't done for my own business. or for your workshops or for your team to be better at, creating engagement.

And I, what also happened, Corina, is I tipped 50 last year and I was like, bloody hell, come on, Guest, get a grip. And if you, if it's not you, who is the person to, share these messages in the world of facilitation? Who will,

[00:30:23] Host: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And you talked about that self, I guess the self-belief part. Do you also have it where if you wanna grow or you, let's use the festival as an example where there might be a skill set that's missing. How do you manage that? Do you question if you've got the right capabilities to, to move forward?

Or do you tap into other people?

[00:30:46] Guest: Good question. Yes, absolutely. I've always said I will pay for what I cannot do myself. So back when we first started as I would get someone to help me with my tech. Because I had no idea how to do that and I was happy to pay for it. I had no idea how to build a website. Also, me building a website is gonna be totally chaotic, so again, it's not worth my pain.

so around the festival, I knew I, my bit was bringing the audience and I know how to run events, but I needed a good project manager to keep us all on track. And so I work with an amazing project manager where Tony Fennemore, her thing is creating festivals. That is her gig. So I'm like, yeah, I'll pay for that because you know what you are doing.

Like she does a brilliant job of working with the site, which actually is done in Essex, and manages all the vendors and manages like that, team to get the process flowing. So I, do think if you are ever thinking, oh, like I'm on my own in my business and there's certain things in your business that's Either eating a lot of your time or becoming a massive distraction, do pause and think, what's the benefit of me paying for someone to come and help me? So like my finance manager, Victoria, we've been working together for 14 years and she still laughs about how she left my them flat in London with a bag of receipts.

And this is a classic story, she does my finances for me. Oh my God. Like I'm, thank you. Like getting us on vendor systems into the corporate world, like that level of detail. No way would my brain cope with that.

[00:32:29] Host: I think that's great though because it's knowing what your strengths are and that's where I see a number of business owners where they get just pulled down and pulled into the weeds because they're trying to do absolutely everything, of which some aren't their skillset, so it takes 'em twice as long.

Is there a part where, and, often the thing that holds people back. Almost, one asking for, help and just realizing that isn't their skillset, and two is paying for that. Yeah. Does that, because sometimes you don't always get the, immediate return. Yeah.

[00:33:03] Guest: There's a couple of thoughts that go through my head. So there's sometimes a fear of going, and I've been thinking about this, oh, I need to pay for X, Y, Z, but can I afford that? But my brain also then argues. But if we don't work with somebody, like a particular coach, or I'm working with a great strategist at the moment.

I won't move forward. So sometimes I have to invest in me and the business to take it up another level. but that's quite scary. But I think that's a classic, space that business owners sit in. It's oh, where do I put my investment? I think there's also this thing about letting go. So I often have this frozen playing around in my head of let it Go because. You can't do everything on your own. You need a good team around you, and it pays dividends to bring a team along. The bit that I find tricky still is having a team of freelancers or people that aren't, they're not on my payroll. And how do you engage that? It's a different kind of way of working. Like how do you engage them to really want to work with you on the business, even though you are just paying 'em an hourly rate, and you are just a tick box exercise for them.

[00:34:10] Host: Definitely, and that's a, that's an interesting point in two ways. First is the investment part because, some people are real risk takers. I chat to some entrepreneurs and then some that are completely not. Would you are you quite comfortable with taking the risk?

[00:34:28] Guest: Ooh, I take a long while to get to things, and then when I do it, I'm all in.

And then I just go, no, we need to do this. And, then I know it's gonna make a difference. I genuinely know that. The stuff I'm doing right now will shift, move the dial 

[00:34:44] Host: Yeah. Yeah. And then, you mentioned about. Freelancers and everything. So you are, working with a number of freelancers. How do you manage that from an engagement? Because that's always, 

[00:34:55] Guest: As in how we work together. so I will always have a weekly call or a biweekly call with 'em, and we check in on a Monday and write what's, on the agenda, what needs to be done. I kill with kindness as well. That's my sort of way of working. we've got, for example, next week we've got a team day to work on sofa, so we're actually coming together.

So I think there's benefit to eyeballing and working in the same room. I'm old school like that. Yeah, we can work virtually, but I think there's something about the energy and I think it's, if you have got a big team of freelancers, it's like how do you bring your team together in person at least once a year?

[00:35:36] Host: Yeah. 

[00:35:37] Guest: to have that connection and that humanness.

[00:35:39] Host: definitely. And with the festival, I guess you've got a certain target that you wanna go and hit.

[00:35:44] Guest: that's a good question. That's an interesting observation. I think the target last year, 'cause it was year one, I keep saying last year was this summer, was to make it happen.

next year is to break even. So I was, what I did last year when I said, I'm gonna build a festival for facilitators and trainers.

I, I talked about it very openly and really transparently. So it's all over LinkedIn. I shared the finances every single month and said, this is where we're at. This is how much it's costing. 'cause I think a lot of people go, oh, festival, it can't be that much. And you're like, no, three days, two nights, covering all the food, covering the glamping.

it's round for a hundred people, 90 grand.

[00:36:28] Host: Wow.

[00:36:29] Guest: Then I've got people going, you need to pay me as a speaker. I'm like, Nope. The speakers are actually paying just a regular ticket price to be here. Even the workshop post, because I still covered 12 grand of the cost. I said, I'm happy to do that, but I don't think people realize what it takes.

To a, to make it happen and build it over a year. But then just the financial risks. And I think we see things like Ideas Fest, biz fest, take any of the big events. I would love to have a con like Nick Nicola Peak and all those guys and girls and just say we know it's a financial.

Massive one. And that's probably, that's what kept me up more than curating the three days. we got to the three days and, so many people go, come here. Are you okay? Are you okay? I'm like, oh fuck, this is the easy bit. People like, I do this for a living.

Like I stand up, I can, host a festival That's, that really didn't frighten me, where that might frighten other people, but it's the financial risk.

[00:37:31] Host: It's a financial risk. Did you think that at the start? Because often when you have big ideas, you're like, yeah, let's do it. And it isn't really until you start getting into it. Then you're like, whoa, this is a little bit bigger

[00:37:41] Guest: Yeah, that's a good question. I've had this idea for sofas since 2018. And just as I was plucking out the courage to start talking about it, COVID came. Then I did have a conversation with a group online about it in 21 and we were like, we just cannot do it this year because everything's getting open, closed, open, closed.

So I just left it and then we got to the summer of 23 and I can't even tell you what the trigger was, but I think I just, in Guest Classic declared on social media, right next year I'm gonna build a, festival. No, 2024. And, we're gonna make it happen. And, but what was different versus a 2018? I knew I had more of, credibility in the marketplace.

We had a bigger community. I had a bigger network. I've always been a prolific network and know everybody, and I'll be like, oh, let me match, make you, let me introduce you to so and But I look again, look backwards now, and I go, oh yeah, that was the right time. Because I think if I tried to do it in 2018.

I think it might have been harder than I expected it to be.

[00:38:54] Host: Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned about the targets. 'cause usually people go, our target is, we're gonna make sure that we fill the room with 1000 odd people. But you've, taken it in different steps.

[00:39:06] Guest: I knew that, so the ticket price is 1500 pounds and I know that some people, it's like a drop of a hat and, but for others it's a bit like, oh, that's a stretch. So for me it was about year one was proving that it worked as a concept and by getting people in the field. So this was the other thing, I did not want it in a conference center.

It is. Under top hall and it's in big teepees, and you're glamping and there's a beautiful lake you can go swimming in and there's yoga and a silent disco and all, the things that you go, oh, that's a space to learn in. It's yeah, your, brain will thank you for it. Like inspiring speakers.

So I knew I also had to invest in a really good photographer, videographer, and we've worked with an amazing guy, Taz, in and then captured everybody. Thinking and feedback and what's come out of it to prove it as a concept, because in our, in my world of learning and development, everything happens at the NEC or it happens in big hotels in London or at the Excel Center, and it's just really super corporate.

So for me it was about proof of concept yeah, and I wasn't as daft as going, I don't need to make any money. No, I definitely wanted to make money and I also ideally wanted a hundred people. We got, 75.

[00:40:27] Host: That's still good.

[00:40:28] Guest: I know and I've gotta remind myself there was some good stuff 

[00:40:31] Host: on there. Yeah, definitely. And as you say, proof of concept when you've got an idea like that. And you mentioned something interesting earlier about you got three, three business models.

You've got the corporate part which brings in the money, and then you've got these two other areas that probably, as you say, you're not necessarily doing that, but, 'cause how do with the corporate part, keep. Could you strike me as someone that's got you, as you say, you like to stretch yourself, you've got lots of energy, and the corporate part might not necessarily be giving you that.

[00:41:01] Guest: I think it's the projects that come up that I'm asked to deliver. and so just I, in, classic language, I train trainers to train.

Then some clients have brought me a project, which is can you create people that we're gonna call master trainers who understand everything that you do, Guest, but can you train them so that they can then train our people internally to be trainers?

it's a bit of Yeah. Yeah.

a, a head fuck. I meant, but it's I literally remember looking at this Dutch lady and I went, so you want me to teach your people in six months? All that I have learned to do in 20 years? And she just went, yes. I was like, oh, okay. So it stretches like that, that keep me going, and I love it when, an HR director or a learning and development director brings me that as a challenge.

[00:41:50] Host: Yeah.

[00:41:51] Guest: That's one. I still do some associate work myself to keep myself sharp. and when you get put in with big SY 100 clients and they're like, we've got a three day leadership meeting and we need to get all our leaders thinking and coming up with the next three year strategy, that stretches my brain as well.

So it's that way. That's where I get

[00:42:12] Host: Yeah. need to be challenged. And you mentioned about sleepless night earlier about, with the festival, with the, finances. Does anything else, within your business give you those sleepless nights? You mentioned needing your

sleep, 

[00:42:26] Guest: Yeah. 

I'll tell you what it is, and, 

[00:42:28] Host: And 

[00:42:29] Guest: women of a certain age are gonna get this and I can't believe it. It's happened, but just bloody hormones kicking in and out. Gents, if you've got a partner and she's going through the perimenopause, be kind because the, just waking up in the middle of the night like for no reason.

It is really irritating and I am the person of I just have to have my Kindle on charge. That wakes me up. And it's not necessarily the work stuff, it's just hormones and it's really annoying

[00:42:54] Host: Does that, does your brain switch on then? 'cause then you're awake 

[00:42:56] Guest: sometimes. And I now 

[00:42:58] Host: go, 

[00:42:59] Guest: I thank myself that I've broken up, but you can go back to sleep. And so I know if I allow myself to start thinking about work or if there's a concern, it will just exacerbate.

And I've done that as many of us have done many a time. Now I'm a bit like, just read your book and ignore that little Twitter in your head.

[00:43:18] Host: Yeah, 

[00:43:20] Guest: to be able to drop back off to sleep.

[00:43:21] Host: yeah. And to be able to, as you say, wake up the next day feeling. 'cause you need to be able to be mentally there, emotionally there 

[00:43:29] Guest: a really good fr girlfriend who's also a doctor and works in the sort of. Menopause hormone space said she heard a great bit of advice, which is if you do wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes it's really easy to count forward. oh, I've only got three hours left before I've gotta get up, and oh my God, I'm gonna be really tired today.

She's actually, if you say to yourself, this is gonna be the best three hours sleep I've ever had, and you, reposition it as it's gonna be good quality sleep. She said that apparently helps

[00:43:55] Host: Ah, interesting. yeah, definitely. Because you do, you often think that, oh no, I am gonna be tired. And once you've framed your mind as in I'm tired, then of

course you are.

You've already, you've already almost said. Exactly. Definitely. And so if you were to go back to the start of your journey, what would you do differently?

[00:44:15] Guest: ooh, a couple of things. some internal and some external. So internally I would trust myself more and know that what I was talking about. Was hitting the nail on the head. I would probably utilize social media more because what I didn't do was go, Hey, let me teach on there.

Which maybe I would've done more of that. but to do that I had to get out of my own way. I would, what I wouldn't do differently and what I would do the same is still connect with people. Be myself, be hu, be human.

have conversations and I, make absolutely, I, don't, some people go, God, you talk to lots of people, you go on lots of podcasts.

I'm like, no, I wanna have good conversations and I wanna share what we do like to help other people be better at what they need to be better at. versus sitting in corporate meetings or, strategizing.

[00:45:16] Host: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Be true to you. And on that, just one, one sort of final question before we wrap up. Do you feel that you were true to you when you were working in corporate? No.

[00:45:26] Guest: No, but I didn't realize that. 'cause I thought that's what I had to do.

[00:45:31] Host: yeah.

[00:45:32] Guest: And I didn't realize, you know how you hear some people going, oh, I was a, a round peg in a square hole and I knew I wasn't in the right job. I never knew I was in the wrong job. I enjoyed it. 'cause I'm really sociable and I had lots of fun and I got loads of amazing opportunities and I was doing cool stuff.

But now I look back and go, maybe you did need to do all of that corporate life to know what it's like to be able to have the experiences. and there was no way. My 22, 20 3-year-old self could have just gone straight out into the world of work because I didn't know that this kind of role existed in the world.

So I had to live in the corporate world first to go, oh, this is a thing.

[00:46:11] Host: Definitely. And that experience is, has paid off, which you now have yours, a successful business, right? And so congratulations on your business and also for going and, having that confidence to then go, we're gonna go, could create a festival, we're gonna go and do this. 'cause that's all exciting stuff.

But as you say, it's not something that just happens naturally. You go through a bit of a journey, as you say, in an internal journey and external as well. So thank you so much. You've been an absolutely awesome guest, Guest. I've really enjoyed talking with

you and I'm sure we'll be talking some more anyway, and thank you everyone for listening today.