Sally From Law to Cross Stitch: Sally Wilson on Turning Creativity into a Million-Pound Brand

In this episode of Your Mind Your Business,  Carina McLeod from eCommerce Nurse, sits down with Sally Wilson, founder and creative director of Caterpillar Crafts, to dive into the inspiring journey of leaving a legal career behind to build a million-pound crafts business from scratch.

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction and Sally's Background

[00:02:00] From Solicitor to Entrepreneur: The Turning Point

[00:08:00] Finding the Right Business Model and Product

[00:19:00] Taking the Leap: First Investment and Early Sales

[00:24:00] The COVID Growth Period and Scaling Challenges

[00:27:00] Hiring Staff and Learning to Delegate

[00:35:00] Self-Worth, Anxiety, and the Reality of Success

[00:45:00] Advice to Your Younger Self and Future Plans

💡 Topics Covered:

✅ The difficult decision to leave a secure legal career for entrepreneurship

✅ Overcoming postnatal depression and a life-threatening birth experience

✅ Strategic business planning: choosing cross-stitch through methodical research

✅ Building from £600 first-year revenue to over £1 million turnover

✅ The challenges of hiring, delegation, and managing a team of 13

✅ Dealing with imposter syndrome, anxiety, and tying self-worth to business success

✅ Building a craft community through authenticity and mental health awareness

✅ Expanding from cross-stitch into crochet and future business acquisitions

✅ The importance of acknowledging privilege and support systems in success stories

🔥 "When you realize that your time on earth is pretty short...you do start to think, am I really enjoying this? Is this what I was put on earth to do?"

💎 "Nobody knows what they're doing. The people you think are rich and successful and shiny—they don't know any more than you do."

📌 If you've ever dreamed of turning your passion into a profitable business, or you're navigating the messy reality of entrepreneurship while managing self-doubt, this raw and honest conversation is a must-listen.

🔔 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with more episodes of Your Mind Your Business!

Follow Caterpillar Crafts: https://instagram.com/caterpillarcrossstitch   https://facebook.com/caterpillarcrossstitch 

#Entrepreneurship #CrossStitch #CaterpillarCrafts #FromLawToCrafts #YourMindYourBusiness #EcommerceBusiness #WomenInBusiness #CreativeBusiness #BusinessPodcast #Entrepreneurs #EntrepreneurPodcast #SmallBusinessGrowth #MentalHealthInBusiness #CraftsBusiness #BusinessGrowth

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Transcript

Sally: [00:00:00] When realize that your time on earth is pretty short. And you know that could happen at any age, or it could be a friend or family member, you do start to think, am I really enjoying? I mean, I don't think you can enjoy anything you do every single day,

but is this what I was put on earth to do?

Do I find it fulfilling, you know, over the course of a month or a year? Am I giving back? Am I really fulfilling my potential? 

Carina: Welcome to Your Mind Your Business, the podcast that entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Carina McLeod, CEO, and founder of e-Commerce Nurse and e-Commerce Growth Agency, and today we have a special guest, Sally Wilson from Caterpillar Crafts.

Welcome, Sally. Thanks for having me. I am looking forward to talking to you today to more importantly, journey. 'cause I know. Sally, who Sally is today, but I guess the audience is 

thinking, who is Sally today? So I'll let you [00:01:00] introduce yourself and then I'm gonna hit 

rewind. 

Sally: Okay.

Um, so I'm Sally Wilson. Um, I am the founder and creative director of Caterpillar Crafts, which kind of covers Caterpillar, cross stitch and Caterpillar crochet. Um, I'm a mom of two early forties, live in Warwickshire. Um, I used to be a solicitor and um, the company is just about to turn 10 years old. Um, we've got a team of 13 And things are busy.

I 

Carina: can imagine. Definitely. And that's, that's quite a career change then, like from a solicitor to running your own business. So, um, I'm keen to, uh, go and hit rewind. And 

understand really about that start of your entrepreneurial journey. 

Sally: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, people 

often say, you know, did you always think you'd go into business?

Or, that's often like a common question people ask of, was there anything in your childhood? Um, and I think it's, it's interesting. I always, I think, wanted to be a solicitor for the wrong reasons. Um, [00:02:00] I knew I had a busy mind. I knew I wanted to, I was ambitious. I wanted something that I wouldn't get bored doing.

I wanted to do something that was difficult. Um, 'cause I do get bored easily. And so I thought, and I wasn't really interested in like medicine or anything and I like to set myself a challenge. Um, so I think watching a Beal at 1213 and sort of the glamor of imagining New York or London or some sort of big law firm, um.

Was the attraction. And I thought, you know, I'd be paid really well and it would just be this really exciting life and something that I would do till retirement. Um, it wasn't like that at all. Um, really, really difficult to get a training contract. The degree and Postgrad itself was, I didn't find it interesting at all, but by this point I kind of committed to it and I'm. Not a quitter. So even though I wasn't really enjoying it, I was like, well, I have to see this through and I'll give it a good go. Um, so I did that until I was 30. [00:03:00] Um, I specialized in employment law and I think it suited me. I did enjoy aspects of being a solicitor. I enjoy forming an argument, debating, um, being passionate and sort of representing the clients, especially.

In certain circumstances within employment law when, let's say it was um, sexual harassment or sexual discrimination, um, or sort of maternity rights, things like that, I could really sort of get my teeth into. And there were some cases where I couldn't believe how people had been treated, and it was almost like a personal vendetta.

Um, but I'd worked at large city firms, small high street firms, public sector, and by the time I was 30 I was on maternity leave and I sort of. For the first time in eight, nine years, had a bit of a moment of reflection and was at home with my daughter and thought I've got this sort of looming deadline to go back after 12 months.

And it really, really focused the mind. And it was like that, you know, if you go on holiday or you have a bit of a career break, you are looking in [00:04:00] then. And I thought. I didn't feel like I fitted in with the people I was surrounded by, and I was thinking life's too short. So it was a combination of a few things of I can't see myself doing this till I'm 65.

I did feel bored. Um, I didn't like just having a salary and someone saying, you know, you are worth, let's say 40 grand, 45 grand. That's your value. Um, and there's nothing you can do for that to go up until say someone retires, whatever. And it's really tricky 'cause everyone's trying to move into the next role and that's just your salary.

And actually the sort of the period when I was working, which was say 2006 to 2015, um, there weren't really any pay rises. So I was like, I'm working really hard here and you don't see anything for it. So I really wanted to. Sort of being in control of something. There was a huge sort of creative, um, desire within me that just wasn't fulfilled in the slightest.

And then the sort of [00:05:00] the opportunity to have an unlimited income and to have a direct correlation between the amount you put in your ideas, your work, and then how much you can earn was a huge driver for me. 

Carina: Did you do any research before then to sort of. Because I guess you're going of reflection of what do I do?

Do I stay in this role? What was it that made you think actually I could run my own 

business?

Sally: Um, I don't think I ever. I don't think I actually thought I could, it a go. Um, but even to this day, like I still doubt myself all the time. And there's, there's always moments of like, was this just luck?

How did this actually happen? What am I doing? Is this all gonna go away tomorrow? Um, I think I just thought I've got the opportunity to do something new and. I always, I mean, I like having a plum B 'cause I think it gives you the confidence in a way. and some people say don't have a plum B and then it means you're all in.

But I'd saved up quite a bit of money, or at least to last me a couple of years. And [00:06:00] also, like I just had a baby. I didn't really do a lot, I didn't spend a lot of money at all. I had the same clothes, didn't really go on holiday, um, didn't go out a lot, so my outgoings were minimal, so there wasn't really a lot of risk and.

You know, it's important to also say that, you know, I had those savings, I had a good job before my husband was working full time. He had a good job. We had a much smaller house with a much smaller mortgage. So it, it was an opportunity that I was able to do that. I wouldn't, you know, there's lots of people that might not be in that position, um, but.

It was planned. Um, so I knew actually I had a year or two sort of runway, and if it all went wrong, I could go back to law or I could do something else. Um, there was a lot of research that went into business generally, not necessarily the crafts industry. Um, so I didn't really have the confidence. I just knew I'd regret it if I didn't give it a try.

Um, and. I think the older I got, I was more open to failure and making [00:07:00] mistakes, whereas when I was younger I was like, that's not an option. Um, you know, always had to do well in school, never upset anyone, never get in trouble. But the older, I think I'd slowly started to get, you know, a bit more, um, bolshy and thought, do you know what, who cares?

Or, try this if it all goes wrong. I had my husband's support. I had some savings and you know, he could pay the mortgage and the bills and everything. So I was like, the risk was minimal at that time and I thought, I'm off work anyway for 12 months. Let's just give it a go.

Carina: So you go into cross stitch or?

Yeah. So, where did come from? 

Sally: months old, she was in a fantastic routine. And I think this is also really important 'cause people always say, so you're on maternity leave, you've got your first child. No matter what experience you have, that's really hard. Mm. And I had an incredibly difficult birth and a really, really difficult first six months I had postnatal depression.

Um, nearly lost my life giving birth. Had a huge postpartum hemorrhage. Um. It was really, really difficult. The first six months. Went back [00:08:00] to hospital, had counseling. It was very traumatic. But also I knew for me anyway, the way to sort of get through that was routine just looking after myself so I could look after her.

Um, so we did have a very strict routine and you know, she fell into that nicely. And we didn't, like I said, we didn't do a lot, so it would be a walk around the park. It was a very simple life. But then that meant that I had. From two till four every single day without fail, she would sleep. And then my husband would get back at say, 4:00 PM and I would work six till 10:00 PM and he would then put her to bed and he would cook and he would sort out the house and it was very much shared.

So I had quite a few hours every day. So from six months old to 12 months old, um. I did sacrifice a lot, but I spent a lot of time doing, um, e-commerce courses. There was a blog I was reading called My wife Quit Her Job by Steve Chu, who's in California. I did his course and [00:09:00] he's a good friend now, um, and learned everything I could and absolutely devoured every book, YouTube video blog course.

I knew it had to be e-comm. I didn't wanna ever go into a service based business. I love creating things in my mind, seeing them, you know, be produced. I was happy with that process of design a product, either make it myself, have it manufactured, do the marketing, ship the product out, see it in a customer's hands.

So then it was a case of working backwards of a checklist of maybe 20 factors of. What's small? What can I make that no one else can copy? What's sort of protected? What won't go out of date? What won't go outta style? What can't, um, break? What's would fit in? I did think what would fit into a Royal Mail large letter.

What's flat as well, because the shipping costs. Um, and what's something that I would enjoy making and something that had an extra layer to it. I don't think I'd be able to put 10 years of [00:10:00] blood, sweat, and tears into a product like, you know, shoes or a mug or a plant pot or whatever it might be, water bottles.

It had to be something that actually. Like writing a book that people would devour over a series of weeks or months that would give them something back. And crafts in general, the community behind it is so much deeper than a transactional product, like buying pair of earrings or whatever. And there's lots of brands that produce those kind of products and they're great and they try to have this story, this why the community, but I think you can't force it, whereas crafts.

It, the process of doing a craft, especially like cross-stitch or crochet, um, you are kind of, you are, you know, you are using your hands, your soul, your heart goes into it, and the link with mental health as well was huge. And building a brand, a community and a messaging around that comes naturally rather than being a marketing tactic.

Carina: Yeah. That's fascinating because there [00:11:00] was a couple of bits there. There's that, I guess that reflective moment when you, you've obviously gone through a tough time. Yeah. Uh, post birth and uh, it's like that reflective moment, which probably would you say contributed to 

whether or not you wanted to go back to, um.

your previous role.

Yeah. I, in a way, it gave confidence because, you know not to sound dramatic but when realize that your time on earth is pretty short. Mm-hmm. And you know that could happen at any age, or it could be a friend or family member, you do start to think, am I really enjoying? I mean, I don't think you can enjoy anything you do every single day, but is this what I was put on earth to do?

Sally: Do I find it fulfilling, you know, over the course of a month or a year? Am I giving back? Am I really fulfilling my potential? there are people that were born to be great lawyers and you know, barristers, and they're amazing at it and very fulfilled by that. For me, I was like, you know, after nine years I thought, [00:12:00] actually that's not purpose here.

And the things that I would do for free, the things that I would do for the rest of my life, even if I wasn't paid. Would be doing something creative, would be making something. And other than Ali McBeal, my favorite other show is Art Attack. And every single week I'd begged my parents to go and get me the supplies to do the sand art or whatever it was.

Um, and that was that inherent thing that lit me up that I would would do for fun. So I knew it had to be creative and yeah, thinking, well, hang on. You know, I, I could have easily died then it, it was a, you know, a split moment. What we, you know what we're messing around with. Let's just And I do think everyone, every single human has got that kind of diamond, that spark of what's your, what's your purpose? What were you here for? That helps others. everybody found that and really jumped into it and had the courage to do that and say, yeah, [00:13:00] like it doesn't matter what the thing is, but if everyone's living to their potential, it makes the world a better place.

A 

Carina: hundred percent. And it's interesting 'cause there's a bit of a journey there to finding your passion because you go into studying like you know that you're gonna do e-commerce, but you still weren't sure necessarily, if I understand correctly, like what, where you were gonna go in terms of your product.

So you're studying all of this and this is the part that a lot of people will see where you are now and not realize the amount of blood, sweat and tears that went into that first six months. of, right. I need to really understand this if I'm going into it. Yeah, yeah. It's not winging it or anything. 'cause a lot of people assume that.

Yeah. You just sort of figure it out along the way and then you get to that point that you're like, right, okay, so I need this, I need to get it in a certain size, a repeat purchase or something. You can cross sell, et cetera. And then you come to a, a product 

that lights you up

effectively. Yeah. 

Sally: So people often think that I, I mean, I did cross, I mean, I [00:14:00] did single craft as a child and teenager in my spare time.

I think that probably was the, the key right there. Like if someone had seen me, I wish someone had actually said to me, hang on a minute here, you know, this is probably what you should be doing. Um, so. I had cross stitched, but people, yeah, there's two things. One, they think that I picked it because I was just obsessed with it.

And they were like, you were like this, you know, addicted cross-stitch. That was your passion. So you went, I enjoyed doing this, so I'm gonna start a business out of it. Um, or that, you know, something like that happened and then I figured it out as I went along. It was a very. You know, strategic move. It was very much researched.

Um, long term, it was planned. There were hours and hours and hours. And you know, my mother-in-law as well, my mom helped out a lot. Um, and I was with my daughter sort of all day from 7:00 AM to say 3:00 PM Um, but then I've always been a bit of a night owl as well. Don't need that much sleep. So [00:15:00] we then stepped till midnight.

I mean most nights, but I absolutely loved it. So yeah, I knew. I wanted own thing and I knew e-commerce was, was the um, sort of model. Um, and then yeah, had this long tick list and had loads of other ideas and spoke a lot to Steve Chu, who I did the course with, and he was kind enough to sort of.

Tell me pretty straight, that's not gonna work. Mm-hmm. I didn't wanna do anything sort of food and beverage. I didn't wanna do anything in beauty and hair. That doesn't really interest me. Um, I did want to do things to do with, um, motherhood and babies, but I was like, that's really competitive. I wanted to do something in the fertility space because I did struggle to conceive.

And I thought, do you know what that's, I don't wanna be getting into that. Like, I don't wanna try and market a product where I'm selling someone. A dream or I'm selling someone something that I can't then control the outcome of. You make that promise, like that's, that's a big deal. I wanna do something that was [00:16:00] light, that was fun, that felt easy.

Um, and I mean, I literally thought of everything imaginable. Wedding dresses, um, photography, paintings, um, I mean, everything I wanted to set up. I mean, even tech products or app. One of my first ideas was this sort of app where if you are a bride and you, um, you obviously need loads of stuff for your wedding, but.

It's a lot of work. It's a full-time job to go and pick everything. Then you have to, you know, test the cake and do wedding dresses. And actually for busy people who aren't as interested, I thought wouldn't it be cool if you could, a bit like if you've got a job around the house or you go, right, I need this work doing and people can bid for it.

You just say, I need these 20 things in warwickshire. And people can just come to you and say, this is the price of wedding cake. You can go, yes, yes, yes, yes. Thanks. Um, 'cause some people don't like that whole process. It is a lot of work. Um, but yeah, there were loads of ideas and cross stitch was one. And there were a [00:17:00] few things where I was listening to something about fishing and golf and these kind of hobbies and how when people identify with a community, they identify as like, I go fishing, that's my thing.

I am into golf and I am obsessed, and I will spend thousands of pounds on this hobby. There are things that have YouTube channels around them, that have magazines that people to a magazine to read about golf or fishing and they will spend 12 hours doing this. I was like, I need something like that.

And actually, needle crafts made I'd always, I'd made clothes, I'd sewn, um, and there hadn't really been anyone that had created a big brand that was different, that was youthful, that was modern. In no one had really innovated in 30 years. Yeah, the designs out there were very stale. They were old fashioned.

And you know, there's a balance between producing products people want to buy and that do well [00:18:00] anyway. But no one really was like showing their face, getting on TikTok, producing YouTube videos, vlogging, showing the behind the scenes, doing things differently, doing community events, and. I mean sales and marketing and community building I'm obsessed with.

So I kind of thought people love this, and once you start cross stitching, people don't stop. They do it their whole life. 

Carina: love that because it's not just about then selling a product, as you say, it's building a there's so much more that you can tap into that. Yeah. When it came to like, so you're like, right, we're gonna do cross stitch, start figuring out your designs, you've then got to buy stock.

Yeah. It then starts becoming 

real. How did you feel about that?

Sally: Um, I don't think I was that nervous. Um, I said, listen, he's Almost my perfect partner because I'm really, um, spontaneous and always optimistic. Everything's gonna be perfect and brilliant all the time. Um, and he's ridiculously cautious and sensible and [00:19:00] down to earth.

Um, and I think actually it's a good balance because, you know, he said, listen. If you spend 500 pounds on stock, well don't worry because you're qualified solicitor. So you know, if this all goes wrong in six months you can go back and you will have to go back. So while there was a buffer, he was very much realistic with me and said, you are not a housewife.

Stay at home mom. I'm not paying for everything indefinitely. We can't afford to do that. Um, and also. I'm not gonna bankroll this where you go and have fun and you are sort of doing something that's not working. You are on a time limit here. So unless you are bringing in your old salary, minus nursery fees, which is what it would've been, you know, if we'd have paid for my daughter to go into nursery, um.

You will be going back or you can go and find a different career and be, you know, employed by someone else. Um, but so I was quite optimistic and to be honest, it just felt like fun. I was really excited and I was still on mat leave as well. Um, or towards the mat. The end of mat leave by this point. So it didn't really feel like a risk [00:20:00] and he wasn't really sort of panicked.

I think if I'd have been doing it for a few years and not seeing any traction, yeah, he would've been like, enough's enough now. You know, we're not, we're very practical. Um, but yeah, it was really fun and exciting. And another question people ask all the time just on podcast generally is like, how much was the initial investment?

Well, the website I think was $50 and I did it myself, yeah, on Shopify. So I bought a theme, did it all myself, loved doing stuff like that. I already had a camera, basic camera, so that wasn't free. Um, and then I bought some fabric probably for a hundred pounds, and bought some cotton, probably 50 pounds. I already had scissors, had some card packaging printed 20 pounds.

That was it. Wow. So there was no investment really. there almost no risk. 

Carina: so you so you start getting demand then, you're getting customers, purchasing your products, and then there comes that [00:21:00] stage where you can't do it alone because it sounds like you can sort of get your hands in ev, in anything, and you'll figure out how to get it done.

If not, you learn it. You hire a, your first person, I'm guessing. what, Yeah. What did that feel starting to realize that, hang on, 

This is, this is a business now, I've gotta drive this forward. I 

mean, it took 

Sally: a while. Mm. Um, I think website went live. So birthday is 25th of November. First sale was, uh, I wanna say end of Jan, early Feb.

So the, so there was the website's live, the orders come flooding in. I had like one order a month. I think in the first 12 months we turned over 600 pounds. So. Probably made nothing. Um, and then second year we turned 10,000 pounds and I was like, this is amazing. Like think of what we, you know, and our cost was so low when people say, you know, live within your and then everything else is invested.

Like, you know, I was the sort of person at uni where I was like, I'll have an orange squash. [00:22:00] I'm not buying a single thing, like I'm getting a one pound 50 jack of potato. I can live like below my means. I can have beans on toast. Perfectly fine. Um, and, uh. And Yes. Um, over the years, kind of it, you know, it did build up, but it was very, very slow.

So I hired my first member of staff in June of 2020, and we launched in November of 2015. But we, there was the traction, so you know, these people go, I turned over a in the first 12 months. I think we went from 600 pounds to 10,000 in the second year to 34,000 in year three, I think 2019.

So, and people often go, you know as well, oh, COVID must have made you, COVID was amazing for you. We'd gone from 34,000 turnover in 2018 to 110,000 in 2019, and that was, there was no COVID. Everyone was still working. another baby at home. So I've got two, two children at home [00:23:00] and you know, my daughter went to nursery, like preschool one day a week.

So I was with them all day every day. So to go from 34 to 110, I was like, something's going right. Mm-hmm. So it sounds like pretty small numbers, but actually we are tripling, um. Then we went to, I think 440,000 in 2020. was a bit of a jump. Um, and then a couple of years later we're turning over a million pounds.

So I think in 2019 was when I was like, Hey, you know, you can't just look at the turnover. You know, net profit's not that But it wasn't far off what I would've earned if I was a solicitor. And you've got two kids in nursery, nursery's expensive. So I was like, this is actually working. I've still got no staff, I've I'm at home spare room. It was just me. Um, so that's when I thought actually. You know, this could be something, um, but never really shouted about it a lot because I quite like [00:24:00] to be that like stealth, you know, underestimated. And people are like, you know, are you not gonna go back to work? Like, this is ridiculous.

You know, you must be making like, you know, a hundred pounds. Um, and never really But, um, I this could go somewhere. 

Carina: I mean, that's amazing because like, and that's the part again don't realize. say, there's all these shiny success stories that make.

People think that, oh, you became in a million pound business in year one. Like, it just all of a sudden happened. But there's a part there where it's traction and it's consistency as well. And keeping, keeping it going and Yeah. That you got to, to 

almost half a million on your own. Yeah. Which is amazing.

Sally: Thanks. It was busy. I mean, it was, we talk about 

sacrifice, especially Mm. And um, you know, we're not key workers. The kids are both at home. It's absolute chaos. There was a lot of tears, and to be honest, I don't remember a lot of 2020. I think I'm still traumatized a bit. [00:25:00] Um, and, and it really was like getting your head down and almost a complete blur, but.

and maybe it sounds greedy, but there were off their websites. I'm not taking any more orders 'cause I can't cope and it's too much. I like jumped in and thought, actually, I know it's a sort of product and I know that we had the backup as well of the community Facebook groups, Instagram, YouTube events to, you know, I was going live every Friday night with a gin and tonic.

So those people, alone at home, isolated, lonely, depressed. Some people had no friends one to talk to. I would go live every single Friday we'd all just stitch. And that then turned into our community events and we now have three day 300 people in, in person. Um, so, um, yeah, it was sort of jumping on the opportunity, but I knew that if they joined us in that period where people were looking for it, I [00:26:00] could get 'em to stay once they discovered us.

Yeah, and they did stay, 

Carina: it from there. So then you hire your first person. Was that kind of, because I guess it is all on You, you everything when it's just you 

And that's a nice 

Sally: place to 

be. 

Carina: Yeah. And then you hire your first person. How did it feel sort of letting part of 

horrific the task you're

doing? 

Absolutely horrific. Probably worse for me than some people because I'm a complete control freak, a complete perfectionist. And think, I mean, one of the things I have had to, you know, in stages. Really get to grips with is, is letting go of, you know, it's, oh, well, I'll just do it myself or it's easier if I do it.

Sally: That's no good for the business. Um, yeah, I think employing my first member of staff was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in the business. Now, you know, if some, there's a need within the business or investment or something, we want to, you know, push forwards. We've got a management team, we sit down and go, okay, [00:27:00] what would that role look like?

How are we gonna redistribute, these tasks? How is this gonna work? Is this a good, you know, um, use of resources? And then, we'll, you know, we've got the systems now of this is what a good job description looks like. This is how our recruitment process goes. How to spot. Good employees that are fit and those that don't.

I mean, that's one of the hardest things I think I've done. But um, yeah, that first employee is absolutely terrifying. Luckily, I had a fantastic one. Um, but also, yeah, people, staff management over 10, well, not 10 years, but say five of how actually having a team is, for me, the hardest thing of running a business.

Everything and it feels kind of easy. But that is not in my skillset at all. It's definitely work hard at learning. Um, I would say it's my weakest, weakest thing, but it's something I'm working on and I think I get better like every month. Um, but [00:28:00] yeah, you gotta kiss a few frogs.

You have to, you know, you think you hire 10 people, one might be right. And. There are people that I've recruited and you interview them and you think, oh, you're perfect. And I would just re, I would interview people myself and go, oh, I love you. We're gonna get on so well, gonna be best friends, be amazing.

CV looks fantastic. So impressive. And then a couple of months in you're like, oh my God, this is horrific. Um, and then, then there's probably people that I discounted Um, that actually would've been great, but it's also, no, no one's perfect. It's not that, you know, it's almost like getting married.

It feels like such a huge commitment. It's something you work at and everyone kind of compromises and changes and how do you like things and, you know, um, yeah. And improves as you go. 

Carina: How do you manage that when, let's say you've hired someone, you're like, you. I think that is, the perfect person.

Mm-hmm. And then you realize they're not. Do you, are you somebody that will kick yourself, as in, I should have 

seen that red [00:29:00] flag, or are you 

like, that's fine, we learn, move on. 

Sally: I should be more like the second one. Um, yeah, I do myself. Um, and I think it, it's a skill, isn't it? Recruitment, and it starts from the job description.

It starts from even identifying what roles do you even need? 

What title do you give that person? How does that fit in? I'm guilty of kind of, um, treating other people how I would like to be treated or how I have been treated in the past, or how I work, which is, you know, in law. You'd get given a job, or at least the law firms I worked at, you're expected to know everything on day one, given some cases, some files, and it's like, go and do it then and do it perfectly, by the way, and I'm not really gonna help you.

Um, and come in, do a great job every day. Never make a mistake and wack a smile Um, and, and having that kind of independence and not a lot of praise and not a [00:30:00] lot of support or at least places I have worked at. Um. So I never really had, for me an example of nurturing and training and mentorship and coaching at all.

So I put myself through stuff now to make sure I am getting better at that type of thing. You know, how to have a one-to-one, how to speak to someone if it's not going well. Mm. And I'm constantly learning. And now we do like entrance interviews when someone has joined us to understand what's their personality type, how do they like feedback, um, you know, how do they communicate?

And then we also do exit interviews if, you know, someone's leaving to understand, you know, how could we improve, um. But now I tend to stay out of recruitment. So my husband joined the company three years ago and he came from a huge organization and he was a manager, so he's had loads of training on this type of stuff.

So he is very much [00:31:00] independent as well. And he doesn't do what I did, which is we're gonna be best friends. This is gonna be amazing. So much fun. Um, or it just, it's almost Kind of in a way going You know, when you're like, oh, we're into the same thing you know, I dunno. Similar experiences when actually the values attitude are so much more important than skills 

of do you really embed yourself in And you can always tell because someone will say. Um, like this is our organization or us, they won't say you. So if they're saying like, we wanna get here next year, or I've been thinking about what we can do about this as a team, rather than going, okay, so this is your company and I work for you and you know, you are the one doing all the stuff and I'm helping.

But like, you are the one taking the risk. You can always tell the people that are saying, okay, almost like their shareholders, like, this is our. Company, [00:32:00] like they're almost an owner as well. Yeah. Like we're a family and we are all in this together. Good or bad. Um, so the other managers as well get involved in recruitment.

There are people that have been recruited that I've never met. Um, and it probably is a good way for me to stay out of it because it's skewed sometimes, you know, I'll look at a cv, I'll be like, oh my God. love that. play. I love that book. Oh my God. You like Taylor Square for me too. Yeah. Um, so, um, It's better kind of, you know, you can't really tell an interview anyway, like CV doesn't tell you a lot, a couple of interviews doesn't. Um, I don't even think someone settles in for six months really. So it's kind of giving people grace, but also just getting to know them, getting to know how they work.

But also for me, I've sort of learned to be quite honest about myself and learn more about myself and not beat myself up. So I'm like, I'm really direct. I'm not annoyed with you. You know, that's just my style. I'm [00:33:00] busy, I'm rushing. I'm not great at sitting down or like focusing on something for a long period of time.

If I think something can be improved for speed, I'll just say, Hmm, that might look better in a blue or whatever. Um, but equally, I love it when people say that back to me. Yeah. Um, so one, someone in my marketing team said to me, yeah, we did an ad and he was like. Yeah. You know, you did that voiceover, not that great and you should have done it like this.

That would've been better. Um, and what else was the other day? Oh yeah, I'd done some design and he was like, yeah, in fact, all my marketing team like that wasn't that great. No one's gonna buy that. And I appreciate that so much. Yeah. I haven't got time for mucking around like, but I wanna be spoken to the way I tend to operate.

I'm just like, just say that was crap. Just say that would be better if you did it like this. 'cause we can save a lot of time and I value that so much more. 'cause you just a straight to the point saves time and I'm like, you should be telling me if my design's crap, [00:34:00] you should be telling me if that ad was shit, it's not gonna perform well.

Carina: So, I guess so, so you mentioned like the people it sounds like you've gone through a really growth journey as well, um, in terms of managing people and, and, and the awareness of your style, like from the, the industry that you were in. um, so you've got a challenge of people.

You're growing as a business, you're hitting, uh, where you are at now. always sort of. Going so smoothly or is there challenge that 

could probably haunt you to this day? 

Sally: I mean, probably things that I wouldn't say anything just coming back to people, um, choices I've made, management style I would definitely change.

Um, I suppose it was down to inexperience, but also I think. My lack of confidence of, I think it, it takes balls to, something over to someone else. It takes courage. And actually, when you are [00:35:00] over controlling and micromanaging, that comes from a place of fear of this is all gonna go wrong if I don't do it myself.

It comes from a place of lack. Of worry. Um, and actually the best thing for the business some, I was in Miami at an event in May of this year, and the guy Scott next to me said, said that he had a three month period off his business. And he said, you know what? I was terrified and I thought it was all gonna go wrong.

And he said, it's the best thing I ever did, and I've always had such a close, you know, grasp on everything. Um, so. It takes courage to step away and to delegate, um, but to see the business as something completely separate from you. And because it was me alone for so long, I completely tied up the success of the business with my own personality and my own self-worth and self-esteem, which is the worst thing you can do.

You know, you sell loads of products today. Oh, so successful. Everything's amazing. You sell one product. This is horrific. I'm an awful person. I'm rubbish. [00:36:00] Um, but I, I didn't want it to have my name. I wanted it to be called Caterpillar cross stitch. Um, so not necessarily for an exit strategy, but so it had its own personality completely independently of me.

And actually it's at such a good place now, and we've got such a strong team of people that are so invested, love the brand, have great ideas, but. The, to sort of counter the, what's what's me them and actually as a CEO to be reminding them of the mission, the vision, having the strategy, and what we do next.

Whether we've expanded into Caterpillar crochet in May of this year. I would love one day to go into Caterpillar quilting, um, and to be buying other businesses, buying commercial property, um, starting my own podcast, doing other stuff that grows the [00:37:00] brand and having the vision, the right people in the right seats to be able to make that happen.

It's very scary to give up that control, but it's the best thing for. The business as it is, it's kinda like a child letting them go. They might fall over, they're gonna cut their knee, they're supposed to make mistakes, win or learn. But my job, you know, if I'm gonna hold it back, allow that to happen.

Carina: Yeah, definitely. And that that's the thing, but it's the realization as well. you mentioned things about like self-worth. I'm keen to sort of unpack that in terms of like almost. the business is doing well, okay, this is good, but if it isn't, find that, that you have that as a challenge yourself Of the self-worth despite, 'cause things are outside of your control to some degree.

and you've passed, you've delegated more. 

Yeah. 

And you've got success for business and your, your sales are a lot higher than they were, and it's not like you're waiting for that [00:38:00] one sale to 

come through. They're, they're there.

How do you manage that now? 

Sally: I, I struggle with it 

every day. Um, so it's something I'm, that's probably my biggest struggle just as a human being.

Mm. Is self-esteem, self-esteem, self-worth, um, and having that tied up with kind of external validation. It's something I work on all the time. And, um, Sometimes I come across as confident and I know what I'm doing, but actually inside I have huge highs and lows. You know, really struggle with anxiety and I suppose not believing in myself.

And some weeks I'm on top of the world and think I can take anything on. And there are weeks when I think, what on earth am I doing? I'm in no position to be doing this. I've got no place here. I haven't got a clue. But I think for me, I am such a sucker for. Other people's stories and consuming content on social media and books and podcasts and YouTube.

And there's such a balance to be had because [00:39:00] while all those really inspirational and I love listening to, um, you know, the guidance, the quotes, and you know, sometimes the bullshit that people just go round and round, it's a really dangerous be consuming so much because. I will compare myself, every aspect of who I am, every aspect of entirely to someone I've never met, haven't got a clue how the business is run, what benefits they've had, investment, net profit.

Um, so I'm constantly reminding myself almost just to ignore the noise. Take it back to what's really important to you because you get swept away. And for someone who didn't want to go back to, I mean, I, I dunno what was earning like say 50 grand at the time. Didn't wanna go back to a 50,000 pound a year full-time job and just wanted to be at home with the kids.

Do something fun, um, and be control of my own life. It's very, very easy to get [00:40:00] swept up in that and hustle culture. And we've gotta make more money and we've gotta make more and we've gotta grow and we've gotta buy businesses and do this. But at what cost? You know every Yes. You something, everything is time.

Does add to your life? Um, and I mean, this is a conversation I have with my husband weekly of, I wanna take over the world. I wanna do this, but I also wanna be a stay at home mom and I wanna bake and I want to be making scones and I wanna sit and watch TV and I wanna do yoga and I wanna do a fudge making class and learn to paint.

Um, but it's sort of. Um, sort of having like four burners on like family, friends, work. You ramp something up, something else has gotta give. Mm. You can't have it all. you can't. Balance is a myth. Um, but it's reminding myself actually, you get to a certain point. Any more than that is actually causing a detriment.

And 70, 80, [00:41:00] 90, what do I want to look back and say about my life? I wanna fulfill my potential, but there's also got to be a point where I'm happy with myself and I'm content and there's a happy, you always wanna be growing and innovating and that's exciting and fun. And I love having competition.

I love having, you know, other companies that sort of spur me on and having a bit of healthy competition. But there's also a point of going, actually, I've done a good job today. It's not perfect. And there's always gonna be someone who's cleverer than you. More successful has got more money. But actually I've got great family, I've got a great life, great team.

I've worked down the road, get to play tennis and that's enough. 

Carina: Yeah. And, uh, hats off for the amount of self-awareness and for being so about it. Right. Because I think. A lot of people don't admit it and are not open, but actually a lot of people do find that a challenge. Mm-hmm. Um, and like you say, the anxiety piece as well, do you, [00:42:00] does that sort of play on your mind, like from a point, you know, 'cause when you grow a business to a certain size, the responsibility increases.

right? Yeah. Does that play on your mind? Like, um, do you have sleepless 

nights or, or, do you feel that you can switch your mind 

off?

Sally: I mean, I sleep pretty well once I actually go to bed. Mm. I mean, AM I just am really like creative and I'm really inspired late at night. I just love the piece of it, and a lot of stuff you hear online is, oh, get a Purley and read a book and do yoga and go for a walk outside on the grass.

I love staying up late. I could, I am literally in the zone. sure I've got a DHD probably and a degree of autism. But when I am fully focused, I like, there's nothing else that's going on in the whole world. And that for me is later night when to bed. It's pitch black, it's silent.

Um, and I've forgotten the question. 

Carina: Yeah. It's more about the anxiety and if, if that being [00:43:00] able to mind off, I guess, with all those sort of. The noises that come 

in and or voices and,

Sally: yeah, I can, I've always slept really well. Um, but then the way my mind just works and instead of me trying to fight it, yeah, the minute I wake up I'll have 20 ideas and I just have to write everything I've probably got a thousand notes in my phone, notebooks everywhere. Um, and just prioritizing and kind of. Have all the ideas, but then think, what can I achieve? Um, I actually think that the hardest thing was, yeah, the first employee and getting my first office, which I think was 400 pounds a month, which was this, it was an old recording studio and it like had no heating and it was up these horrible stairs and everything was falling down.

But actually once you get to, I think a certain size in that regard, I actually do have a lot of confidence because it's not really in me, it's in the product, it's in the community, and it's in the team. [00:44:00] And in that I have unwavering confidence. It's a fantastic product. People love it. The community are so loyal.

I know that people want it. And we do a really, really good job at delivering what people want, and the team are fantastic. So actually in that, I don't have sleepless nights because. It works. Um, and also I think there's a point you get to where you just think actually just bloody go for it. Um, you've got one life.

What's the worst that can happen? Take the risk. And actually, I wish I was bolder and took more risks early on. I've always been very sensible and cautious to a degree, but I think. Fortune favors the bold, and I think I would've been braver earlier on, which would, in the early days have been backing myself.

Carina: Mm. Because I always ask that question, like, if you were to go back 

and talk to your younger self, what would that piece of advice be?

Sally: I would say, you've got a DHD, 

so. [00:45:00] Chill out. Like, you're, you're There's nothing wrong with you. Um, and lean into that because in a lot of ways it's a superpower. And, and that's why your mind is on the go all the time and that's why you have these ideas.

But try to channel it, um, and take a break. But I say, do you know what? Nobody knows what they're doing. people you think that are rich and successful and shiny and really clever or you know, had rich parents or a private education or they had investment, they dunno any more than you do.

Nobody knows what they're doing and there's a lot of noise. You know, ignore social media, which is easier said than done, but I dunno what I'm doing. I'm making it up. I haven't got a clue what I'm doing, you know, and I'm not necessarily succeeding at everything in life. Like as a mum, I'm late, I forget things, you know, they're having fish and chips or whatever.

Um, in my marriage we don't spend enough time together. [00:46:00] I'm trying to have a date night. I'm trying to see a friend. I'm trying to exercise. It's all just a bit of a struggle, but it's just kind of messy. But it's actually supposed to be like that. It's okay. You are making your own way and just lean into it.

Carina: Yeah. That's some brilliant advice because as you say, I think with social media and everything, it can be so distracting over what you should be doing. Yeah. But really, and I had a guest that came on and she said, we should be sharing our to don't list. Yeah. And actually 'cause it comes across. The, The, you know, superwoman, superwomen and people watch you X, Y, and Z?

But actually they're not always 

hearing the 

things that actually, 

well I had to drop this. Yeah. Or sacrifice that. Yeah. As well.

Sally: Or the help that people have as well I don't hear that about So when, especially when people had like had to invest. Loads of money or the people you might see on track and stone or something.

I'm only here today because my husband works with me and [00:47:00] he got up early and sorted both children out who are at different schools and they have a couple of clubs every single day. He's like, get back whenever. I won't get back till late. And there's a lot of privilege and benefit that I had and still have and other people have that I think isn't mentioned Earth.

You know, every founder story, every entrepreneur. really hard work, but everyone started at a completely different place. parents were entrepreneurs who had companies who had friends and they learned from them or even having, you know, parents and there was a backup where they were able to take that risk.

Um, it's just really important, I think, to acknowledge that, that it's not the same for everybody and it's really hard. 

Carina: Definitely. And I love the fact that you've just, uh, shone a, a light on that because is the bit that gets ignored and it's almost like where people sort of publicize, well, I've [00:48:00] this, I've got these children. I can manage it all. So almost like why can't anyone else but behind the scenes there's probably a nanny or something else, or A cook or a maid Or something going on in the background that's just 

not

shared. 

Sally: Yeah. It's when people, I mean, I've got two kids, but when people have like three or four children even that I'm like. How do you work? How on earth does that make sense? Um, but if people actually sort of opened up, you know, the doors and you could really see there often is help or there is huge sacrifice. Um, today, I, you know, I don't do this all the time, but I, I didn't have to think about anything else today. Um, so kids had breakfast, got 'em ready for school.

My husband did everything else. Um, but I think it's really important for them to see mummy kind of. I was told them all about today and they know I work and I've got one boy, one girl as well, and with me and my husband working together as well. It's a really good example. I would like to think anyway, of kind of being partners in life, in work, having different [00:49:00] able to just go for anything but shared responsibilities.

Um, and we call it tagging in, so I'm like, my daughter's asking for like some particular hairstyle. I was like, daddy's tagged in. I'm like, he can, we weaponized incompetence in our house. Like both of us can do everything. You want a hairstyle? Daddy can do that. 'cause he's tagged in on another day on Friday.

That'll be me. But we don't sort of have the traditional roles at all. 

Carina: I love that. I love that. And it's a great way to, um, to close the podcast actually in terms of just sort of highlighting that. But you, before I do completely close, I wanted to ask you one last question You mentioned about sort of all your ideas.

Um, because it sounds like you're definitely not 

stopping where you are now. What I 

think I could.

what does the future look like for you? 

Sally: So, I think, so one thing we want to be 

buying our own premises. always leased. It's just. Bit tricky finding the right thing at the moment. Um, so I'd like to have a miniature business park where [00:50:00] we can operate out of one property and then lease the other two out.

I'd like to have a proper sort of Caterpillar HQ home, um, that feels a bit more us. I would like to buy the businesses. I think there's a huge opportunity in buying something that's already established, whether that's five, 10 years old, um, and profitable with a good team. There's lots of very small businesses for sale, but then you are just buying. A job 

I would love to. Expand the Caterpillar crafts range but I think it's also really important at the same time to maintain the quality, but also the sort of the service to the customers. I don't think we should be just expanding for the sake of it. I think it has to be very measured and intentional.

Crochet was a natural other craft to go into. Um, and we'll also be doing sort of subscription boxes and a Cal, which is the crochet along and we have stitch along. So lots of community projects where people get involved and make friends. Um, we'd love to do quilting one day, but I think [00:51:00] just it's really exciting to be able to have ideas and then have a team and bring them to life.

In a decent timeframe. I get really frustrated when things drag on. Mm-hmm. Um, I used to say in interviews, wanna take over the world. But actually that's not my goal anymore. I want all my staff to be really, really happy and fulfilled. I want to keep growing the business, but at really manageable rate.

Mm-hmm. And I want to be able to do fun stuff and be able to kind of, you know. Soothe my soul as well and do not work as much. I think. So in January, I'm going to university at Cranfield to do a business growth program for nine months. So I would never have jumped of doing that, and I also wouldn't have been able to because I didn't have the team in place or maybe wouldn't give up control.

But it's a really good way of me going, well actually I have to delegate this, this, this, and empower people to make those decisions, which I think is hard for people because I've always. Made every single decision. So now no, no, you, you can make that call. They're like, you [00:52:00] serious? Are you sure?

What if it goes wrong? And I'm like, no, honestly it's fine. Like your decision might be different than mine. I believe in you. Go for it. So to take that step back and then sort of help me plan for the next five, 10 years, but in a really balanced way where when I'm older, like I don't, I don't want to retire.

I love working. I love building something that makes other people happy, that I'm really proud of. Yeah. Um. Yeah, that's the, that's the goal. 

Carina: That's fantastic. I love that. I love that you're going back to the study and in, just in terms of the sky's the limit. So congratulations. I mean, congratulations on the success of where your, your business is at.

and, And also your own personal growth journey. It's fascinating when, when, when I hear you running a business, you're kind of almost going alongside it in terms of your own. You've got your business growth. Yeah. And your own journey as well. And thank you for being so, 

so open today and I'm sure you've inspired many that are are [00:53:00] listening. 

Sally: Oh, 

thanks for having me. 

Carina: And thank you everyone for listening today.