Why People Leave the Church

What drives people away from the churches they once called home? In this thought-provoking conversation, we dive deep into the complex reasons behind church departures - from self-centered expectations to legitimate concerns about teaching and community.

The discussion reveals how our approach to church attendance often reflects our spiritual priorities. When we enter sanctuaries seeking recognition or validation rather than connection with God, disappointment becomes inevitable. As one host observes, "If you're making yourself the center of attention instead of that attention going to God," church will never satisfy. This misalignment between expectations and purpose creates a cycle of church-hopping that leaves many spiritually unfulfilled.

We explore practical factors too - families seeking strong children's ministries, busy schedules competing with Sunday services, and the pain of church hurt. Each represents valid considerations that church communities must address with compassion. 

Whether you're a church leader seeking to understand attendance patterns, someone who has drifted from church, or a committed member wondering how to strengthen your community, this episode offers perspectives that transcend simple explanations and challenge us all to examine our motivations for gathering with fellow believers.

Transcript

Episode Introduction

Speaker 1 0:38

okay okay all right all right. Well, beth is not here with us not feeling well this evening so praying, praying, praying, my goodness that's where we are today ice cream ice cream already

Speaker 5 1:01

it was because it actually blew me out for a change.

Speaker 3 1:04

I know that thunderstorm woke me up last night. Oh, that's what I was trying to tell.

Speaker 5 1:09

I've been telling everybody that they asked me today. They're like did you hear that storm last night? And I was like no.

Speaker 1 1:15

I didn't hear it either, and then I got to work. It was shaking our house.

Speaker 5 1:22

Yeah, that thunder and lightning was yeah. Yeah, I get to work and people are talking about it and they ask me and I'm like no, and I'm like wait a minute. You know what I think I did?

Speaker 5 1:30

but I thought I was dreaming it because I had a dream that I was in an accident and lost a leg, oh my. And I was in the hospital, in the hospital bed, and they're trying to tell me to keep my stump up. Like all these people around me, I'm in this really bright room, but what I'm doing while I'm in there is I'm counting the seconds between the lightning and the thunder, so somehow that storm must have creeped into my dream?

Speaker 5 1:56

Yes, and so I thought I dreamed it. That's crazy. But people started talking about it so I was like, oh, it really did, it really did start.

Speaker 4 2:03

It wasn't in your dream.

Speaker 3 2:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:05

You're reading way too many Civil War accidents. Yes, oh, speaking of that, there's a. I thought about you as soon as I saw it. It's a two-foot Civil War soldier, a Union soldier.

Speaker 1 2:23

On auction yeah.

Speaker 5 2:25

Is it like a cement one? Like a lawn ornament?

Speaker 2 2:29

It doesn't really say if it's cement. It looks like it's cement when On auction? Wallach auctions.

Speaker 5 2:37

Huh, because the only time I've ever seen one of them is in the Smoky Mountains. They have a business down there that has a huge lot of just lawn ornament and they have a civil war.

Speaker 2 2:48

They got it made. Looks like it was two foot. I'm pretty sure it was two foot tall, that'd be sweet.

Speaker 5 2:54

Yeah, I want one of those, I think, next time we go to Smoky Mountains, if I didn't find one sooner. Getting it.

Speaker 3 3:00

We'll get on Wallach Auctions tonight. Yes.

Speaker 2 3:03

I can get on right now.

Speaker 5 3:06

Then all I'll need is a cannon and I'll be all set.

Speaker 2 3:08

Well, you passed one of those up.

Speaker 1 3:12

Didn't you have a cannon here? Yeah?

Speaker 2 3:17

I can find anything you want. You got a Union cap too. Hmm, cappy, yeah, I can find anything you want, he got a Union cap too.

Speaker 5 3:30

Kepi, yeah, kepi.

Speaker 1 3:32

Kepi or Kappy.

Speaker 5 3:33

That's what the hats the soldiers wore in the Civil War. They called them Kepis.

Speaker 1 3:36

Kepis, yeah, k-e-p-p-i, I think it was a.

Speaker 5 3:39

French term they were really into. French things back then.

Speaker 1 3:43

So yeah, it wouldn't be an English term it could be.

Speaker 2 3:50

Maybe that's where cap came from.

Speaker 5 3:52

Yeah, maybe Probably.

Speaker 2 3:54

They just shortened it. Got tired of writing cap-y so they just put C-E-P-C-A-P.

Speaker 1 3:59

That's what I'd do Us Americans.

Speaker 2 4:02

Yeah, we want to make it easy.

Speaker 1 4:04

Yep.

Speaker 2 4:06

Don't want to make it too hard for anyone.

Speaker 1 4:07

We don't know if that's accurate or not.

Speaker 2 4:12

Sounded good though.

Speaker 3 4:12

Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 4:14

It's not like we knew what we were talking about.

Speaker 5 4:23

What are we talking about? Right?

Speaker 1 4:26

What are we talking about right? What are we talking about sin? Yeah, what?

Speaker 2 4:29

are we talking about why people leave the church?

Speaker 5 4:30

because people like me because it's 11 30 and it's time for lunch. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 4:35

Yeah, they think we're crazy. Time to go to subway. Yeah, they're like, hurry up, nick, it's 11, 35 I'm always me.

Speaker 5 4:47

Holly broke the record. Okay, that's true. Done, finished.

Speaker 1 4:50

I actually have the record for the shortest yeah sermon now too, so yeah, right, people need to back off just a little bit. Yeah, you're just on all yeah, but see just, on fans.

Speaker 2 5:01

You never remember the good things about anybody. You always remember the bad things.

Speaker 1 5:05

Yeah, that's very true, that's very true.

Speaker 2 5:10

Which should be the other way around.

Speaker 5 5:12

Well, it's like the news, it's all bad news. It is Nobody reports good news they don't make money that way.

Speaker 2 5:20

Yeah, I don't listen to the news. We don't make money that way. Yeah, I don't listen to the news. I don't either Every time the news comes on, I just turn the channel. Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:29

Hey Roger, how's it been without your home phone? Real quick.

Speaker 2 5:33

Oh yeah, it was real nice.

Speaker 1 5:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 5:34

Oh yeah, you get no spam calls. Oh yeah, you don't get 442,. You know, I don't know who that is spam calls.

Speaker 4 5:43

Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2 5:45

It'd be nice if my wife would take hers out of the purse or make sure it was charged. If I try and call her, that's aggravating. But if it was me, where would you at? I'm always at church, you know where I'm at Church, or?

Speaker 1 6:02

work or home, pretty much. Where was you at?

Speaker 2 6:03

I'm always at church you know where I'm at Church or work or home Pretty much.

Speaker 5 6:07

It does make you wonder how people did that for hundreds of years.

Speaker 2 6:10

Yeah, what with no phone?

Speaker 5 6:12

Yeah Well, I mean just no mobile phone.

Speaker 2 6:15

Oh, I did it, for let's see.

Speaker 5 6:19

I remember when I was little. Probably 50 years. My mom would call my dad's work. Maybe it was his break or lunchtime and I remember her waiting for him to get to the phone. But that'd be like it, Because otherwise you know, if he was late at all she'd be getting nervous. You can't just call him, but yeah, I just imagine, you know. Life was probably a lot more simple People didn't realize the freedom they had.

Speaker 1 6:46

Yes, I agree.

Speaker 5 6:47

By just not being connected 24-7.

Speaker 4 6:49

Yeah right.

Speaker 5 6:52

Now nothing can wait.

Speaker 4 6:53

No no.

Speaker 5 6:58

At least we all have somewhat of a sense of you know, like you said, like you can remember, I remember a time- it's funny today I've been training this girl in my office to do my job when I go on vacation and we had to hand write an order out today. So I got the blank copy out and it has. You know, it has like a ship too.

Speaker 5 7:19

It actually has a few lines and she started putting the whole thing on just the one line up top and I'm like wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're going to confuse people. I said first line, put the company name. Second line street address. Third line city state zip.

Speaker 3 7:36

I said you know Just like when you're addressing a letter.

Speaker 5 7:39

And she looked at me you never, have and I'm like oh, I said, I forget that you kids have never addressed a letter and don't even have the concept of that, so I forget sometimes how either old I am or young they are.

Speaker 1 7:52

Right. Why aren't they teaching that anymore?

Speaker 5 7:55

Well, because nobody does it, it's all email.

Speaker 1 7:57

But I still write my bills out. You know what I mean write my like bills out.

Speaker 5 8:02

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 8:02

Like yeah, but that's you, but you're still even on the back end most people just well and honestly, they are online. Yeah, I think the only thing I do send is like my rebates but, but at work I have to send a ton of stuff snail mail like for insurance, like if you're going to send an invitation to anybody for yeah, but most people do that.

Speaker 2 8:20

Stuff all online now yeah, it's all an invite on facebook qr code yeah, yeah, yeah, are you going?

Speaker 5 8:26

maybe I don't know right, right yeah yeah, my granddaughter did that.

Speaker 2 8:31

I had to call her. I said, hey, I'll be there. This is what I want to eat don't send me no more qr codes I don't know, how to use them.

Speaker 5 8:42

Yeah, it's strange. When you start to see that generation gap in your life, you're like, wow, I'm old.

Speaker 2 8:52

And I'm not old, but I'm old Compared to the times.

Speaker 5 8:55

yes, yeah, you just start to see that gap and you realize who you're talking to. And you're like they never experienced any of these things. They have no idea, Because it's funny, because everything she has to do on the computer she remembers it can put everything, but as soon as I start putting papers out in front of her, telling her to organize them and fill stuff out, it's like you can just see them like. Scatterbrain yeah they have a hard time with that.

Speaker 5 9:18

Yeah, like scatterbrained, like, yeah, they have a hard time with that, yeah, it's amazing Changing times.

Speaker 2 9:26

Yeah, I mean you know like I watched a lot of like the History Channel and that, like what was I watching? But it was only like 80 years difference and the amount of change. You know it was amazing.

Why People Leave Church

Speaker 5 9:43

Well, yeah, I often think about you know people that are in their 90s. Yeah, the amount of changes they saw. Yeah, if I'm walking in the cemetery I'll look at somebody's born date and perhaps maybe their passing date. I'm like, wow, they've seen it all. Yeah, Like if they were born like in the 20s or 30s and they lived into the 90s 2000s.

Speaker 1 10:02

Or early 2000s. They've seen it all. I've done that before in the cemetery. I'm like oh you know, like 1912 to like I don't know 98 or something, and I'm like, wow, you know.

Speaker 5 10:14

Yeah, they sell a lot of transition, oh yeah. They probably didn't even have a motor vehicle.

Speaker 2 10:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:20

Once, that's like I went to my cousin's last week, last Thursday, and she had a bunch of old photos in that that my grandmother had, and I saw a picture of my grandfather I don't know how old he was, but he had his own business, had a horse and cart and it said Delivery and Pickup, you know, and the name of the horse was Tex. That's original. He passed away, I'd say maybe 25 years ago. So, like you say, he started out driving a horse and I know he drove a car but then they had to take the car away from him because he got too old. But I mean, it's amazing.

Speaker 5 11:19

Yeah, to look a lot— yeah, I'd say that has to be one of the bigger transitions is going from horse to automobile, oh, yeah, yeah, I don't know if we've experienced anything that.

Speaker 2 11:33

Well, we could go from automobiles to hovercrafts. We could.

Speaker 5 11:39

We're not there yet.

Speaker 2 11:40

Close. Yeah, you know, yeah, you know. Yeah, I mean you could. I'll probably never see it, but you know you may see it. I hope not.

Speaker 4 11:49

Yeah.

Speaker 5 11:52

I don't see how that's going to work. Oh, me neither how are you going to have traffic signals in the air?

Speaker 2 12:00

Well, how do?

Speaker 5 12:00

airplanes do it Right. Yeah, there's a lot of airplanes in the air, but there's not that many compared to vehicles. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 4 12:06

Yeah.

Speaker 5 12:07

So you can see how they can manage that.

Speaker 2 12:10

Maybe that's when they're going to go to the air bus. Air bus, yeah, you know, or?

Speaker 4 12:18

air trolley.

Speaker 5 12:21

Guess, you never know. Yeah, you never know, yeah I never know, or what.

Speaker 2 12:24

Yeah, what's, what's that? What's that big, uh big train in china? Uh, it's an electric train, it's super fast. The white one, I don't know, I never saw the color of it, but there's one, I don't know if it's that's. That's in disney world.

Speaker 1 12:43

The white one no and it goes super fast. Is that what you're? Saying yeah, I'm thinking of one like that, I don't know, and that's why people stop going to church yeah, we took the long way around because they can't find the transportation. They can't find the transportation, they can't find the correct transportation.

Speaker 2 13:02

No, they don't want to find the transportation. True, true, it's there.

Speaker 1 13:05

Yes, they just don't want to get on the bus.

Speaker 2 13:11

Maybe we ought to start a church Uber.

Speaker 5 13:14

So let's channel this episode. Yeah, so when you thought about that, what was your inspiration for this topic? A podcast, it was actually the one I sent, margie. When you thought about that, what was your inspiration for this topic?

Speaker 1 13:21

a podcast. It was actually the one I sent, margie I wasn't aware of that well, I don't know, you don't know everything no, oh, I know, trust me um, it's called girls gone bible is that? The two girls that talk they're just they're two younger girls yeah, they have like a some sort of accent yeah, um, she had me listening to a little bit and then I've.

Speaker 1 13:46

Only she thought they were kind of funny the way they talked yeah, I've only listened to one like actually that one, but I it was easy to listen to though is it the one where the girls are like oh jesus, he's so cute, um that's what she's telling

Speaker 5 13:59

me these girls are so funny, they'll be talking. Oh that Jesus. He's just so cute the things he does. I'm about to choke, I'm like whatever.

Speaker 2 14:07

I'm like what.

Speaker 1 14:09

I don't remember them saying that and she might have listened to a different one. Maybe, you know, a different episode compared to the one that I listened to. Because I can't remember if I sent her the exact episode or just their show Rose.

Speaker 5 14:24

Gone Bible. Yep, that's them. Yeah, that's the one.

Speaker 1 14:25

Yeah, but there's a podcast that's. It was pretty big for like culture. I don't know, just like, oh, what am I thinking? Oh, what am I thinking, just like an everyday, um, worldly I guess would be, and it kind of they kind of give that same vibe to people like just easy, what was that called? I can't think of the, I can't think of the podcast because I never listened to it. But I saw a TikTok that was saying, oh yeah, you know, I listen to this podcast and it reminds me a lot of not so much what they say or just kind of the layout of it, like just the casual talking. So that's why I decided to give them a try. But the one girl was kind of saying, you know, I've been really um, focused in on why people leave the church and I'm like, oh, that's a good, you know, that's a good topic.

Speaker 5 15:29

And she didn't go into depth on that podcast that day because I think it was just like a side note, but I'm like that would be something to dive into so yeah, and that's what so has anybody in this room ever experienced that firsthand, like you, went to a church and then decided, for whatever reason like this one isn't for me or had an experience that you know, kind of, I want to say, turned sour, but just you realized that this is not what I'm supposed to be not where you're going to get fed.

Speaker 3 16:02

I was at a church for 20 years and then something happened and God gave me discernment, because I was on the fence as to whether I was going to leave or not. And then God just gave me certain discernment that what I was feeling was right and what had happened was wrong and it was time for me to move on. And I had been there for 20 years.

Speaker 5 16:24

So what you saw was that going on for a while? Yes, it had started.

Speaker 3 16:30

No, it had been going on for a month or more and I just was sitting back just watching it play out, thinking I'm not sure that this is truth, sure that this is truth, you know, and then, like just four or six weeks in god just is like nope, you know he opened your eyes. You know like, yeah, beware of those people in, yeah, that wolf and sheep's clothing, you know, yeah, so yeah, he's like it's time for you to move on.

Speaker 1 16:57

So when I brought this topic up because my I was telling you guys a few weeks ago like it's nice at my work because we all have a Christian background mainly, and we can all talk about it and stuff. So I was on my lunch break yesterday and the two girls that typically stay for lunch I had asked them like you know, why do you guys think people leave the church? And the one is a pastor's wife for like 25 years I think, and then the other one, she's just big into her church. But it was interesting because the one's like well, wait a minute, are you talking about the church or like church shopping, like leaving this church to go to another church. I'm like, well, honestly, it could go both ways.

Speaker 1 17:37

I said because we've had topics where yeah you know we've done that before, like we all come in with different points, you know, like, I think, the one with Michael, you know, it was kind of like I think he was thinking more of the business, the actually the business world, rather than different professions, you know what I mean. So I said, I said we'll see how it goes, you know. So I think we could highlight both to it tonight. Mm-hmm, yeah, roger, what do you think?

Speaker 2 18:06

I think the people leave the church because they get hurt.

Speaker 1 18:09

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 18:11

They don't think they're being used. They don't think anybody sees them.

Speaker 5 18:15

Well, that was the first thing that I was thinking. Yeah, you know when you're going to church, you know what is your focus. Are you going in to church, into the sanctuary, taking your seat, and are you sitting there looking for God and looking for the Word, for the inspiration that's going to come to you that day? Or are you looking around the room, thinking, well, is anybody going to notice me today? Is anybody going to acknowledge me today? Yeah, like what is your purpose of being there?

Speaker 5 18:51

today, yeah what is you know? You're thinking about how I don't want to say how it affects you, but yeah, you're making yourself the center.

Speaker 5 19:00

Yes, of the attention instead of the attention, instead of that attention going to god right, yeah so if you sit there week after week and you don't feel like anybody's making you a part of it yeah, you know or giving you that recognition that maybe you're seeking by going to church, you know? Does that you know? Perhaps that's one of the main reasons people move on, because they don't feel like they don't belong. But I sometimes wonder if that's because it's more self-centered than it actually is saying I'm coming here to seek.

Speaker 5 19:33

God not so other people can seek me and see that I'm valuable.

Speaker 3 19:38

I went up to a lady last week and I gave her a welcome card and I said, oh, I don't think I've seen you here before. I'd like to give you a welcome card. Would you please fill this out for us? And she's like you want me to give that back to you? And I said, yeah, she's like well, I've been here a couple weeks now. I said I don't think I've seen you. She said you know what, during praise and worship, I said I don't focus on the people that are around me, I'm focused on you, know Christ. And so I said I didn't even know that you were. You know I didn't see you last week. I apologize, but she's like yeah, I was on your side last week. She's like is there like assigned seating, she said. I said, oh no, when you come in, you just pick a seat. You know it doesn't hurt any of us to move from time to time?

Speaker 2 20:24

Was that the lady that was sitting in the back?

Speaker 3 20:25

With her sister in the wheelchair. Sister in the wheelchair, yes, yeah, so, but she said she had been here four or five times yeah. That evening, that morning, that her son came in looking and I sent him over to you because I didn't know who he was looking for.

Speaker 5 20:42

Yeah, so is that? Do you think that is a failure of the congregation that something like that happens? Or like you said? I mean you come in like you're prepared to go into worship so you can be forgiven for not seeking out every new person that's walking into the church.

Speaker 2 21:10

But if you come in seeking God, you're going to overlook that.

Speaker 1 21:17

Yeah, you're not going to be offended because somebody didn didn't reckon.

Speaker 2 21:23

You know, yeah, or?

Speaker 1 21:24

somebody didn't enter or like introduce themselves like right and I think, like I look at it as like chase. Chase wouldn't. I feel like chase would be. There's just different personalities like I think yeah, chase would be uncomfortable if someone did that, not saying that, oh, you shouldn't do it, but I think there are different personalities that he'd probably be like. Hey, I'm glad no one said hi to me, you know what I mean. So there's a lot of people that are just wired differently, right?

Speaker 3 21:50

I agree, not everybody's looking to you know, like Pastor Michael's sermon last week, on a fence he was on a fence Right. Nobody greeted you at the door, Nobody opened the door for you. You know, yeah, Well, you know Marcus had to walk away for whatever reason. But yeah, you know the things that we just take offense to that there was nothing meant by it whatsoever.

Speaker 2 22:13

Very petty, yes, yeah.

Children's Ministry and Church Growth

Speaker 4 22:16

Well, that's those people that are focused on themselves. Them Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 22:21

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 22:24

Well, and I think people leave too, because they've got children and there's not a youth group or whatever age group their children are. There is nothing offered for them in that age group. So they start looking for a church who has more of the children's church aspect.

Speaker 1 22:41

My aunt was like that, you know, she grew up in this church and she wanted her kids too, but at the time we just didn't have anything. And I mean so. They're right next door, basically, but it's like and if you look at her you know like she was only wanting what was best for her kids. You know, I don't blame her.

Speaker 3 23:00

You know what I?

Speaker 1 23:00

mean, I get it.

Speaker 3 23:06

Absolutely. She was only wanting what was best for her kids.

Speaker 1 23:07

You know, I don't blame her. You know what I mean. I get it absolutely. So, yeah, I mean thank you. If you can find a good bible preaching church, yeah, then yeah, yeah, that's the thing preaching the bible, you know, and I'm not saying, they don't whatsoever, right yeah?

Speaker 5 23:14

yeah, well, we do have to take those things into account, that you know. Yeah, there's going to be couples that have three kids and they desperately want to go to church, but them three kids ain't going to let them sit through the sermon, so they need a church that has a good nursery yeah right Things like that, so they can feel at home, so they can get the word yeah.

Speaker 2 23:39

And still bring their children into it, it well that's um that's the reason we are doing what we are doing now yeah so that this, this side of the church, will be the children's church. You know they can have their own uh, praise and worship time. You know their own classrooms. You know the church is basically our church is growing, some because we got a lot of younger people coming in. Their kids are well from Cooper's, well from Opal's size to. Safira's size.

Speaker 4 24:17

Right.

Speaker 3 24:18

You know, yes.

Speaker 2 24:20

So there's a big gap in there. So you know you can't have someone that's Saphira's age, which is what? 10, 11?

Speaker 4 24:28

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 24:29

And with the six-year-old.

Speaker 3 24:33

Right yeah.

Speaker 2 24:35

You know you can't do that. So that's the reason that we're doing what we're doing right now. You know some people, they don't understand that.

Speaker 1 24:42

They don't realize that you know yeah, like, like, when we walk in those doors, those red doors, like, like the goal is, hey, kids gonna go to the left.

Speaker 2 24:52

Like kids go to the left, adults go to the right and yeah and worship and everything. You know I believe within the next. And then you know there's well, like Emmett and Remy.

Speaker 4 25:12

Yes.

Speaker 2 25:13

Safira, mm-hmm, you know.

Speaker 1 25:15

The older ones.

Speaker 2 25:17

They're going to be able to start a youth group.

Speaker 1 25:19

Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 25:21

And you know things are going to grow from that. Right, you know so you know people, yeah, people leave because there's nothing for their kids. So you know, yeah, we want everybody here. It doesn't make any difference how old you are or what you look like Right.

Speaker 4 25:36

We want you from the nursery to my age.

Speaker 3 25:41

And then some yeah.

Speaker 2 25:44

But you know, like I said, that's the reason we're doing. What we're doing right now is to expand the kingdom of God, and we've got to start with the little guys.

Speaker 3 25:58

You know, Well, yeah, because they're the future.

Speaker 2 26:02

I mean, they're going to leave, you know, but they're going to have that seed planted in them and then you know they'll come back to the Lord one day, or they won't leave. Yeah, you know. Yeah, you know so.

Speaker 1 26:21

Yeah, I think with society. You know how everything's scheduled anymore, like everyone looks at Sunday as a Sunday fun day, or you know let's do sports you know all weekend.

Speaker 3 26:35

Or it's just my leisure day and I'm going to sleep in today.

Making Time for God

Speaker 5 26:39

I saw a great meme the other day. It said I want to spend eternity with the Lord, but I can't give him an hour on Sunday. Yeah, yeah, there you go so a lot of people have the mindset like, yeah, I want to go to heaven, yep, you know, yep, I'd rather go fishing. I heaven, yep, I'm you know.

Speaker 1 26:59

Yep, I'd rather go fishing, I believe but I want you know, yeah, hopefully, when I die or or when I'm, when I'm fishing, I'm out there with the lord and it's like, yeah and hey I don't.

Speaker 5 27:04

I don't criticize that because right yeah sure I do find some validity in in that, for sure, for sure, but yeah if you're, you know you always have these thoughts of you want to be with the lord, you want to go to heaven someday, but you can can't devote an hour a week at best.

Speaker 3 27:22

To be with like-minded Christians To assemble together, yeah, and.

Speaker 1 27:28

I think I read somewhere that it said you know, when you're reading the Bible, like you can't find a churchless christian, like, if you think about it, like everyone that was a christian in the bible, like they were they were.

Speaker 5 27:45

They were a member of a body.

Speaker 1 27:46

Remember yeah, you know, and I I think a lot of people are oh well, I, I don't like the religion and I don't like the church, I don't. I'd rather just be, have my relationship with the lord and do my devotions, and it's like, yeah, but where two or more are gathered, you know, like you can't, iron sharpens iron and right, I don't know, I don't, I don't like that, and especially now with the live versions, when you can just watch it at home.

Speaker 2 28:14

You know, and yeah, tv versions are fine, but you, you still don't get that personal right and then, there's no service and there's no community.

Speaker 3 28:22

You're not doing. You're no community, no service.

Speaker 2 28:24

No, you're just yeah yeah like, like pastor says, just putting a check in the box okay I watch I watch christian tv right, right, yeah, yep, so I listened to a sermon yeah, I'm good

Speaker 5 28:40

well and, as you said, you know the way the world is now. Everybody can say I don't have the time. Yeah, and we talked about this last week. It's very easy to say things like I wish I could, but I don't have the time. I wish I could, but I've been tired lately. I wish I could, but I just got too much going on.

Speaker 5 29:05

So it goes back to that is exactly right. You are busy. You do have all these things going on in your life. Perhaps you are tired, but the fact is you have to make time.

Speaker 4 29:18

Yeah.

Speaker 5 29:18

The time is never going to be presented to you in this life, in this world.

Speaker 5 29:22

No, If you're, if you're anybody if you're trying to be successful, if you have a family, if you're devoted to anything, you're right, you don't have the time on paper, but you have to make the time. That's where it all starts, and there's so many things that I think if a person decides that they first of all, that they want to be a Christian, they're leaving one life behind to start another one. So that comes. That can come with all of these criticisms. It can come with all. You can come with all of these criticisms.

Speaker 5 30:00

It can come with losing friends you've had your whole life. There's so many consequences to becoming a Christian and to me, I was thinking about this today. I kind of look at it in the same way that, look, you want. You guys all know like I want to be a Gettysburg guide, right? Well, even more of a passion of mine is like I want to be a writer, like I would love to actually write a book about it. I would love to write several books.

Speaker 4 30:30

Yeah.

Speaker 5 30:31

But the fact of the matter is it's like you know what, I don't have time to do that. Who's got time to sit down and write a book?

Speaker 1 30:36

Right, well, guess what it's like you have to make time. Make time Exactly.

Speaker 5 30:42

But of course the second, that you would decide that you're going to be really serious about it, like lately I've been getting up at 4 am just to study certain things so that I can write. And I'm thinking, my God, what am I?

Speaker 5 30:55

because for a while I'm like I can't get up at 4 am, I'm just too tired, too tired, and I am tired, but at some point you'd be like you know what, if I really want to do this, I'm going to have to make time Right, because you can't ignore your chores when you get home. Right and you just all these things, so it's like you have to make time.

Speaker 4 31:18

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 31:20

And once you get into more positive mindset number one, you're like, yeah, I'm tired, but I can do it. Yeah, but sometimes you do have to realize that, as with becoming a Christian, the second you do things, you will have people in your life that will believe that whatever you're doing is a waste of time.

Speaker 1 31:40

Oh yeah, right, oh yeah, or not believe in you.

Speaker 4 31:43

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 31:45

So I think sometimes when somebody leaves the church, it's because, yeah, they get the enthusiasm, they decide that I'm going to make time to do this and they start going, and then the criticism starts. That's from either friends, family, because family can be worse than anybody.

Speaker 3 32:05

Oh, yes, oh yeah.

Church Hurt and False Teaching

Speaker 5 32:06

You know, if you have a mother and a father or brothers and sisters who are not into that, they don't believe.

Speaker 4 32:13

Yeah.

Speaker 5 32:14

And they find out that you know know you want to turn your life to the lord. That could be the harshest form of criticism right there, and that's the ones, of course, that hurt the worst. So right away, you're going to come up against people. They're going to be like that is why are you doing? That is a complete waste of time. What, what can you possibly? You're never going to, you're never going to accomplish that yeah you can't do that, you know. Like with me, it's like well, who would?

Speaker 5 32:38

you know who would want to read what you write. Anyway, like I'm not thinking, like, oh you know, hey, I want to be like a national bestseller right, yeah, it's not even that it's just fact. For me it's very therapeutic it's a way to get my thoughts out and way to just be creative yeah keep my mind working and it just for me. It has a lot of positive effects for me.

Speaker 4 32:57

So, that's another reason why I want to do it.

Speaker 5 33:00

But you can have plenty of people that can look at anything and go like you're just wasting your time doing that, there's other things you probably should be doing, or that you're too old. You're too old, your time has passed. What's the point of doing that? But I think what's the point of doing that? But I think that's the same. It's the same kind of thought process with um, becoming a christian is you're going to face that criticism right from the beginning. And I think people in the beginning it's like yeah, you've got that rush of adrenaline, you're excited about doing it yeah you start going to church, but then, once the excitement wears off, then you've got the discipline part which comes into play.

Speaker 5 33:38

As far as yep, I know these people are criticizing me. I want to change my life. There's people that are not happy about it. They think it's going to be a waste of time you know, and people can fall back really quick and be like you know, you just lose your gumption, you just lose you know, that immediate, lose your gumption, you just, you just lose, you know, that immediate spirit that you had for doing it and people can crush you, um.

Speaker 5 34:01

So you gotta be, you gotta be ready for that. So I think sometimes that's why you'll see somebody at church and then after a few weeks you know they don't come back and maybe because they've been facing some of those things. But of course then that's where the discipline has to come into play. Next, yeah. Because you do have to realize that, just like, if I want to be a writer guess what? At some point I have to show my work to somebody.

Speaker 4 34:27

Right.

Speaker 5 34:27

I have to show somebody what I've written.

Speaker 1 34:29

Yeah.

Speaker 5 34:30

And go out on a limb and get criticism.

Speaker 2 34:31

Yeah, I was just getting ready to say the criticism, and this is where the discipline and conviction will come into play.

Speaker 4 34:37

Yeah.

Speaker 5 34:38

Is you compare that by saying, okay, yeah, you're going to go into the church? You're not perfect, everybody knows it. A lot of people can wear their faults on their sleeve.

Speaker 4 34:47

Yeah.

Speaker 5 34:48

And the second, somebody starts criticizing you and saying, well, that's not good enough, you're not good enough. Right, you have to be able to take that. Or you know, if you have went to your pastor for advice, you know for counseling, then when you get that criticism, then you have to build on it.

Speaker 4 35:10

You have to be willing to accept it.

Speaker 5 35:11

That. Yeah, I realize that I'm just starting out. I realize you know I've got a lot of work to do.

Speaker 4 35:17

Yeah.

Speaker 5 35:18

But a lot of people. The second they get criticized.

Speaker 2 35:20

You know you say how many people are convicted, they back up in their I should say convicted, then, rather than saying you know what, I think they have some great points.

Speaker 4 35:27

Yeah.

Speaker 5 35:28

I have some things I need to work on. I'm going to press forward. No, they, they fall back. And that's the second thing. I think that sometimes will make people leave the church. They just can't. It's easier to quit than it is to to buckle down and to really and, like we were saying in the beginning, people want that recognition walking into the church, like they want people to recognize them, they want people to welcome them.

Speaker 4 35:51

Yeah.

Speaker 5 35:51

They want all the positives. Yeah, but as soon as there might be any conviction.

Speaker 4 35:56

Then they don't want it.

Speaker 5 35:57

Then all of a sudden it's like, oh, wait a minute, I don't want everybody looking at me.

Speaker 1 35:58

Well, I don't want that kind of attention. Yeah.

Speaker 5 36:00

I don't want that kind of attention. So they'll leave rather than push forward and say, yep, I got some growing to do, yeah, so you know, it's all of these things I think with especially, and I don't know, maybe it goes that way for somebody that has been a churchgoer for 20, 30 years and for some reason they keep repeating that process. Like I said, they get the excitement and the fire up and then they go and then once everything kind of settlesles down, they lose their discipline and then they quit for a while yeah and then maybe they gain it back again.

Speaker 5 36:42

Something sparks, sparks it again and they try and they back off. But but I think it's that process of, yeah, you have to be a disciplined churchgoer. It's not easy because, let's face it, sunday sometimes is somebody's only day off.

Speaker 1 37:00

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 37:02

So you know what are you going to do. You know if it's your one day to sleep in, it's very easy to tell yourself I know I should go to church, but I really need some rest. Yeah, but you can take a nap after church yeah.

Speaker 4 37:13

I do yeah, sometimes.

Speaker 5 37:20

It's just so easy, I mean it's just so easy in this again in this world, that sometimes you know people, just you know they're not willing to give up that hour.

Speaker 4 37:27

Yeah.

Speaker 5 37:28

And sometimes I'm I see their point. I do.

Speaker 1 37:32

Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 5 37:34

You know, hey, I'm guilty as the next person, sometimes getting up on Sunday, being like you know what I think. Today I just need to settle and sometimes that's not a bad thing, but it just depends on, like, how disciplined are you are. Is that going to make you to where? Okay, if you miss this Sunday, does that mean you're going to miss the whole month?

Speaker 1 37:51

Right? Does that mean you're going to? You know, Start a pattern? Yeah.

Speaker 5 37:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2 37:56

So go one, skip two, go to skip three, yeah.

Speaker 3 38:05

And then it's like well, and then if that is your only time getting the word, like it shouldn't be, but if it is.

Speaker 5 38:09

There's no wonder you start slipping and miss four in a row, yeah, so yeah, I think it really has to do with the individual, and I and I stress very strongly that, as the individual, you do have to put all of those I don't want to say selfish things aside, but you're going to church to meet the lord, for no other. That's. That should be your main motivation, week in and week out.

Speaker 4 38:37

Yeah.

Speaker 5 38:37

It's not. You know, is Dawn going to be there to greet me? Right, you know, are they going to have donuts and coffee this week. Um, you know, are they like I said? Are they going to make a special point to you know, talk me up, or to make me a good example, or get me attention? Yeah, Um, is anybody going to say how pretty my dress is today? All those things like. Whatever it is, I didn't know you wore a dress.

Speaker 4 39:01

Yeah, well, yeah.

Speaker 2 39:05

So your shirt looks good.

Speaker 4 39:06

Thanks, you know that's.

Speaker 2 39:10

Yeah.

Speaker 5 39:12

Oh yeah, you know just like I said, you have to be centered on God first and foremost.

Speaker 1 39:16

You're not going to make it, and I think the one I was the one I was about to say is like the change in the church like just change, you know physical changes, just like moving the cross to the yeah you know, and it's like again what are you coming for? If you're coming for how it looks or how it feels, or the aesthetics or the change of music, like exactly you are, all you transition from hymns to contemporary music.

Speaker 1 39:44

Yeah, right, yeah like, then you're I'm not trying to please you. You know like I'm trying to please god, and I think michael would say the same, like yeah, just I know he dealt with a lot of that, especially when he started first took over A lot, a lot.

Speaker 1 40:03

Yeah, and I think that all stemmed from okay, well, he's a young preacher. So I think a lot of people were. Maybe they weren't thinking the way that I'm thinking oh you know, well, he's young, let me take advantage of him and let me maybe, if I say that I don't know the carpet shouldn't be moved, he won't move the carpet. You know what I mean? Like that's not the case, because the carpet's still here.

Speaker 1 40:25

But I'm just saying you know, and it's like, first off you're trying to take advantage of a young gentleman who was, you know, fresh into ministry, and then you're just doing it for selfish purposes and then it it might end up, you know, causing a huge breakthrough not breakthrough almost break in break, yeah, break up of the church. A divide, yeah, you know like, and then you don't want that, and all because of your selfish desires you know, yeah, yeah, just petty petty there was there was quite a bit of that yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 41:04

And these are all. People are people, those are all natural sometimes reactions.

Speaker 2 41:09

Well, you see the same thing in the workplace. If there's a new manager, right you know, everybody wants to test them. Yeah, they them out. See how much you can get away with, yeah.

Speaker 5 41:18

So that's human nature. But again, I think, yeah, it always goes back to the individual and what they're really looking for. You know, and if you honestly think you're not finding the Lord in the church that you're at and you leave, I say, hey, you know that's. That is fine. Yeah, but just make sure that you know number one you're going to church for the right reasons, right, yeah? And if you are leaving, you know, just look within yourself and just be like okay, why am I, why am I truly doing this?

Speaker 1 41:46

yeah, or like if you're church hopping or church shopping and notice a pattern, well, maybe you're the problem of the pattern perhaps like if it keeps following you and I'm not talking about anyone, I'm just thinking. There's certain I don't know, there's certain things I've heard, not even in this church, just in other places, you know, and it's just, it's okay to say you're wrong, yeah, yeah, it's okay.

Speaker 2 42:11

I'm always wrong.

Speaker 1 42:16

Ask I'm always wrong. Ask pastor, he'll tell you he's got a shirt that says so. You know, I think that leads into, like you know, just say you're wrong. Well, that's humility, and then that's judgment. And it's like you know, a lot of people do judge in the church.

Speaker 2 42:27

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 42:28

You know, is that an issue?

Speaker 5 42:29

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we've been doing this show for how long now? I mean, we've been doing this show for how long now? Three years, are we on?

Speaker 1 42:36

three years now.

Speaker 5 42:37

Yeah, yeah you know, and never once have I walked into the sanctuary like I'm on a podcast, you know, look at me. Like you know, I hope everybody comes talks to me and recognizes that I'm on the show and he pops his buttons on his shirt.

Speaker 2 42:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now your shirt don't look too good now, nick. When in all?

Speaker 5 42:54

reality, and that's the thing. That's not why I do this. No, if I don't feel like I was attempting to help, I don't know whether I'm helping people or not.

Speaker 4 43:06

I hope so.

Speaker 5 43:08

But that's the main reason I do this is hopefully somebody out there whether it's in. India, singapore, any of those far off places where perhaps nobody has heard the word. Yeah, hopefully, if they just heard my voice one time and it made them think about Christ and changing their life.

Speaker 5 43:27

Right, I've done my job Exactly and that's all I want to do is just help people whether they've got off the beaten path and they know to find it again. Yeah, you know it. Just that's all I want to do. I don't want any. You know, I'm never looking for recognition Like geez. I wonder why nobody comes up and tells me that, why that episode was so good. Right, right, I never do that. I just that's not. No, you know, I appreciate that when people do.

Speaker 4 43:53

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 43:54

But not for myself, right, right, not, so I can say, oh yeah, I did a great job.

Speaker 3 43:58

Let me go.

Speaker 5 43:59

No, it's because whatever we were speaking about, if it helped that person.

Speaker 4 44:03

Yeah.

Speaker 5 44:04

If it inspired them, then that's like I've done my job.

Speaker 4 44:06

Yep.

Speaker 5 44:07

And that's all that I want to do. Mm-hmm, yep, but people sometimes just can't think that way. No Again, they just. They're always more worried about themselves than they are, about where they are in the kingdom and what they're doing for the Lord, and it's just. It's a very simple thing, I think.

Speaker 5 44:30

But you know we all hear about church hurt, which myself I've never really experienced that and I don't even think I've ever been friends with somebody or known somebody that's come up to me and said, hey, you know, I went to this church for 10 years and this is what happened, and I laughed and I was really upset. I never, I never had that experience. So I can't really, I can't talk too much about it.

Speaker 4 44:54

Mm, hmm.

Speaker 5 44:55

In that respect. But I just think it's. You know, I guess there's a million different reasons why people stop coming to church. But at the end of the day, you do have to look within yourself and say why am I? You know?

Speaker 2 45:11

Why am I even here? Why am?

Speaker 5 45:13

I even here. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 45:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3 45:16

Yeah, it can be a sermon that's preached and that person thinks it was being directed directly at them and it you know, and it never is. I mean, if your toes are being tramped on, that's um conviction, yeah from the holy spirit.

Speaker 5 45:29

Michael has said plenty of times he's like you know.

Speaker 3 45:32

You see other people getting blessings and you're not yes, and you're not yes and you start getting jealous of the people around you, but you but you should bless them. Yes, yes, be happy for those, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 45:44

Yeah. You know, yeah, so you say you talk to your group at work about this.

Speaker 4 45:53

Yeah, right, so what did they?

Speaker 5 45:55

have to say Did they bring up any unique.

Speaker 1 45:58

Melissa was about the only one, but she was the pastor's wife, um and she. She basically was saying church hurt and um, like church shopping.

Speaker 3 46:11

She's like you know, I think I think, what shopping like where you just jump from well and, I think, to those people don't want to be commit themselves to working with a group or they just want to come in, sit in the back pew, hear the message and walk out the door.

Speaker 1 46:26

Yeah and I think she she even brought up and I never even thought of it. She's like you know the church shopping. She's like I've seen a local church around here have a billboard that basically was saying no, come church, our church is better than yours. And like I don't know exactly what it said, but she was like basically said that you know. So it's like these other churches are almost encouraging church shopping because it's like, yes, I do believe you should advertise and you know for for your church and try to get people in, but not with certain ways.

Speaker 5 47:00

You're doing it right, you know yeah, you know like that's icky and then um, you shouldn't be targeting other churches, right?

Speaker 1 47:07

like, look at us, we're better than you, type of thing. Yeah, and then the other thing she said was um, just how everyone's so busy now, like basically the sunday thing, like. And she even said she's like you know. She said like my, my husband only preaches for an hour or I think they're full service is an hour. You know, he only preaches like 15 to 20 minutes is that possible?

Speaker 1 47:29

I don't know but you know she's like. You know, even if you, if you're out of church and it's too long for you, quote, unquote, like fine, you know. Then okay, find something that's better for you or something Like you don't have to just leave entirely. You know what I mean.

Self-Centered vs God-Centered Worship

Speaker 5 47:47

Well, hey, I'll be honest, I'm a really reserved person. Yeah, I was raised that way. I raised myself to be that way. A lot of examples of people I've looked up to they were really reserved people. So I've always thought like self-control was a big part of not only who I am, but how. I deal with things, how I stay in control of situations. So I'm a really reserved person. So in worship I'm not, I'm not, you know.

Speaker 1 48:20

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 48:21

I'm not very outspoken with the worship part of it. It's it's not my strong suit. Sure, Just say that it's not my strong suit. I'll be completely honest, um, I probably would enjoy a hymn more than I would enjoy a lot of up-to-date Christian songs.

Speaker 5 48:37

Yeah, that's just who I am Right, enjoy a lot of up-to-date Christian songs. That's just who I am Right, right, but I'm mature enough to say okay, there are plenty of great things about this church that I love, that do well for me, that serve the purpose that I need to keep me coming back.

Speaker 4 48:53

Yeah.

Speaker 5 48:54

And I realized that, even though it's not my strong suit, that may be yours Like the worship part for you might be the whole like 90% of what gets you going. What? Keeps you coming back every week because you can't wait to get in and get into worship. And then, when Michael starts his words, you might sit back like all right, now I got to you know, yeah, I got to unwind sit here and listen to him talk for an hour.

Speaker 1 49:21

It's okay, I like it. Gotta listen to his whiny voice, I know right.

Speaker 5 49:27

Well, I'd rather be getting excited in worship. I'm the opposite. I can't wait to hear Michael's sermon. That's what I'm looking forward to every week. That's what's going to fuel me for my week? That's what I'm looking forward to every week. That's what's going to fuel me for my week.

Speaker 4 49:42

That's what I look forward to.

Speaker 5 49:45

So, like I said, I'm not going to say I'm going to leave this church because I don't like the music they play, and they play the same song every week and I'm just not that type of person. It's just not for me.

Speaker 2 49:57

You can't, just everything can't be it's not all about you, you know, it's just, and today's it's just because yeah, no, I mean it's what the holy spirit the church has grown and into a different dynamic and um yeah you're.

Speaker 5 50:12

You're not going to be on fire about everything no depending on what type of person you are. I mean, maybe you can grow into that, maybe I will grow into that, um, but I think you have to look at that. You, you can't, because I'm like if it serves somebody else well and gets them excited, then I can accept that right, like I'm happy about that yeah you know. If that's what drives them to be closer to the lord, yeah, then have at it cooper loves praise and worship.

Speaker 3 50:39

I'm fine, fine with it. You ever watched him?

Speaker 1 50:42

Cooper Cooper.

Speaker 3 50:43

Yeah he loves it.

Speaker 5 50:45

He just has a natural.

Speaker 3 50:48

He's just got a natural rhythm to himself Real quick my stepmom was just at the house and she's like.

Speaker 1 50:54

You know, I think, cooper, I always think he's going to be like a linebacker. But your dad, he always thinks he's going to be like a linebacker, but your dad, he always thinks he's going to be like a dancer or something. I said you know what he's going to be. He's going to be on the team of Savannah's.

Speaker 5 51:07

Bananas. Hey, you know some of the greatest Hall of Fame football players took dancing lessons Really.

Speaker 1 51:14

Yes, because it helps with their balance. Oh, and the hand-eye coordination.

Speaker 5 51:19

So it could well just all work right in tandem there.

Speaker 4 51:23

Yeah, yeah absolutely it.

Speaker 1 51:27

it's honestly, it's like I'm in awe just looking at him already because he'll like if I have him, you know, and I'm driving and I'm looking at the monitor and we're just listening to music it was 101.9, but then I switched it to 95.9. And 101.9, he's going like headbanging. And then 95.9, all of a sudden his arm goes up. I'm like he already knows he didn't have his arm up for 101.9. I don't know if Journey was on or what something was on, but as soon as you know, k love was on, he just his hands and then just started swaying.

Speaker 1 52:07

and I'm like yeah it's crazy, and he's how old 16 months 16 months, yeah, so yep, he's got it down, yeah he's gonna be like easton, like either dictating a third world country or being a preacher.

Speaker 2 52:27

He gets violent, yeah, um well you got stuff written down there you got written down.

Speaker 1 52:37

I know I he keeps crossing stuff off, because I if I've touched on it, but there was something that said we're called to build up the church of christ, not to destroy it.

Speaker 5 52:48

Like not destroy it because we're to build ourselves up right, which one is it you know?

Speaker 1 52:56

yeah, like, if you're focused on just building yourself up, then maybe you need to focus on building church up would that?

Speaker 2 53:07

would that be well? That wouldn't be humility if you're trying to build yourself up no no they have like a staring contest right here.

Speaker 5 53:19

I'm not sure what happened?

Speaker 1 53:24

no, I'm just like humbleness. You almost need to. I don't know, would that be? You almost need an act of humbleness to like. So you're not like, yeah, I mean self-love, self-care, but whenever you're, when you're just thinking about yourself, about, oh, you know, like you said poor me yeah, for church, like putting on a dress, oh is so.

Speaker 1 53:47

And so gonna say, I look pretty like what. That's what you're thinking about when you're going getting ready for church, like what I don't know, or oh well, don didn't say hi to me, right? Well, what did you say? You know?

Speaker 5 53:59

one of the greatest acts of faith is when a man lays his life down for his friends.

Speaker 4 54:04

Yeah.

Speaker 5 54:05

That doesn't necessarily always mean that you actually give your life for that person. You can give your time, yes, that's why you're doing it. You're setting yourself aside to do the work of the Lord, and in that you are benefiting the people around you, friends, and that's what you should be looking to do, as opposed to all these other selfish kind of look at me things that might you know.

Speaker 2 54:34

Lift others up.

Speaker 5 54:35

Yeah, yeah, that's what you know. You really do have to ask why am I, why do I want to be a christian in the first place now? And yeah, is it to serve others? Is it to serve the lord or is it to get some sort of advantage?

Speaker 2 54:54

maybe you think just the first two.

Speaker 5 54:56

Yeah, to serve, to serve the lord and serve others you know or you're hoping it helps you out of a jam right, yeah you know, out of a rut looks good on your resume because you volunteered.

Speaker 1 55:07

Who knows?

Speaker 5 55:08

you know like yeah yeah, I mean, you want it to be something that changes your life so you can help, therefore, move on and and affect others and change their lives too. And it should never be again. You know, if you, whatever reason you have for leaving the church, it should never be well, because I yeah no, now, if you really truly feel like I do not, feel like I'm getting the word of the lord, okay right, yeah, I think you've got a valid reason, like you said in your case you got to the point where, like i'm-

Speaker 5 55:38

getting the sermon here that this is not you know what the Lord would have me do.

Speaker 3 55:42

It was so funny because only three of us we all kind of started had the same discernment, but it's like nobody else recognized that it was false teaching. But the three of us and all three of us did we moved on. I mean, we went to the pastor and his wife, we sat down, we had, you know, had meetings with them and discussed it with them, and two of us were money counters and we both just said we're going to give you a four-week notice so that you can get somebody into our position, but we are going to leave the church. And this is why there was no coming back from what they had done. You know it was they were.

Speaker 3 56:24

They were holding true to what they had done and said. But yeah, the lord told me it was wrong, so it was time for me to move.

Speaker 4 56:35

Yeah, good thought, yeah those are healthy reasons.

Speaker 1 56:38

Yeah, yeah. Now question the other two people, or families.

Speaker 3 56:49

Did they rejoin a church? The one did, and I know the other is still out of church. I've even invited her to come up here with us but she's yet to do it. So she's still out of church. And that's been 10 years ago. Yeah, so my mom has been gone for nine. So 10 years ago eight to ten years, something like that you've been here that long.

Speaker 2 57:11

I've only been here three oh, I was gonna say I've only been here three flies yeah, no, I did another church for a year after my mom died.

Speaker 3 57:20

I was out for about four years because my mom and I went to church together and I was out for about four years, went to another church for a year. Just didn't feel at home. Yeah, been to a couple of the bigger churches, felt like I was being entertained. Yeah, and then Beth invited me here and after I got past, pastor Michael's whiny voice been here ever since you can get through that.

Speaker 5 57:43

You can get through that, that's true.

Speaker 3 57:47

Sorry, Pastor Michael. No, that was Satan. He didn't want me here he didn't want me to grow.

Speaker 1 57:53

That's right.

Speaker 3 57:53

That was truly Satan, yeah.

Speaker 1 57:55

But I'm, you know, I'm looking at your friend, you know, and it's like this sticky situation that whatever had happened, like that's why they left and who knows if they're even going to return, like hopefully, yes, but you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 58:10

So it's like when you are involved in a church and she has been a Christian all of her life. Yeah, and it just surprises me that she is not back in church, that she has not found a church, yeah. That she is not back in church, that she has not found a church. Yeah, maybe she's afraid. Well and I know health problems happen for her husband, her dad you know.

Speaker 2 58:32

So there has been a lot of things that Satan has put in her life

Speaker 5 58:33

that kept her out of church, yeah, yeah, and you always have to consider that point too. You know you got to be like is this something that I want to do, or is the enemy making me do this?

Speaker 1 58:45

yeah, yeah, you know just yeah, yeah what do you got over there?

Speaker 3 58:57

no well you got.

Speaker 2 58:58

I mean, you got your bible open, you your Bible open, you got a whole page.

Speaker 3 59:01

We've pretty much talked about everything that I had written down. Did anyone have a scripture at all?

Speaker 5 59:06

I didn't. I didn't either. I didn't even prepare for this.

Speaker 1 59:09

I meant to look for one and I'm like I don't even know.

Speaker 5 59:12

I actually thought Michael was going to be here.

Speaker 1 59:14

Me too.

Speaker 5 59:15

I really thought he was going to take the bait.

Speaker 4 59:17

Yeah. I really thought he was going to take the bait?

Speaker 2 59:18

Yeah, no he didn't.

Speaker 3 59:21

So, yeah, well, you know, like Romans 12, 17 through 19 talks about, you know the hurt and offense and repay no evil for evil, but give good thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all, if possible, so far as it depends on you. Live peaceably with all Beloved. Never avenge yourselves but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written vengeance is mine and I will repay, it, says the Lord. That's right.

Speaker 5 59:44

Mm-hmm. Yeah, michael, talking about offense, you know that has to be one of the just driving factors of people leaving.

Speaker 3 59:53

Oh yeah.

Speaker 5 59:54

Right. People will take offense to anything.

Speaker 1 59:57

Anything, and if it's not what he's preaching about, about it's what someone didn't do.

Speaker 3 1:00:04

You're not going to put the right color of panels up in the new sanctuary.

Speaker 5 1:00:08

The color won't be right you suggested it and michael didn't take it yeah you know, and so yeah, michael nobody's ever gonna, you know yeah, like I'm not offended, he's not sitting here right now.

Speaker 1 1:00:17

No, and that's a, you know, and that's seriously that's a great point. Yeah, like he was part of the. Yeah, like I'm not offended, he's not sitting here right now.

Speaker 5 1:00:20

No, seriously, though, that's a great point.

Speaker 1 1:00:21

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:00:22

Like he was part of the team. For how long? Yeah, and he makes a personal decision based on his life and what he needs to do, and what he needs to move himself forward or to move the church forward. Yep, and none of us were like well he's quitting, I'm quitting, I can't believe that.

Speaker 1 1:00:36

What do you mean? Right, right, and I mean, this was all his idea.

Speaker 5 1:00:39

Does he not like us? Yeah, what did we do? You know, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:45

I know he doesn't like me. We just kept trucking along.

Speaker 5 1:00:48

I took that as you know what. This is our opportunity, because he often says he likes to take something build it up and then, hand it off to responsible people, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:01:03

Build it up, yes, and then pass it off to responsible people, yeah, yeah, so that is other than roger he thinks we're responsible.

Speaker 5 1:01:07

Yeah, so you have to say he had enough faith in us. Say you know, what you guys can handle this yes, yes you know you guys can not only keep it at the level we're at. Perhaps you you can bring it to the next level. Yeah, and that's the healthy way of looking at things like that. None of us took offense to it.

Speaker 4 1:01:22

Like perhaps.

Speaker 5 1:01:23

Well, he says he did it for this reason, but I really think it's because you know, yeah, yeah, that is a good point. But that's hard. A lot of people just, yeah, they can read into things and make it all about themselves and it's just. And I always hate I I have to be honestly. This topic sometimes always bothers me because I never want what I say to come out as I'm criticizing somebody or negative for you know, uh, but perhaps it's. It's one of those things that needs to be said.

Speaker 1 1:02:04

Or if the shoe fits wear it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 1:02:07

I was going to say that Boy, that was snooty.

Speaker 5 1:02:13

Yeah, you know, sometimes I have I don't want to ever, because somebody could be listening to this and be like, well, that's just not at all. Yeah, you know, I really just you know. So they could be listening to this and be like, well, that's just not at all. Yeah, you know, I really just you know. So they could take offense to what we're saying right now, and that's never my intention.

Speaker 4 1:02:29

No.

Speaker 5 1:02:30

Is to say you were doing something wrong because you didn't come back to church. Maybe you do have. I'm sure there are people out there that do have valid reasons. Like you said, maybe there's health concerns. Maybe you know there's things that you just can't control right now.

Speaker 4 1:02:45

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:02:47

But probably more often than not it's like I said, because people have gotten the fire, you know the excitement's over. They've lost the discipline, and not only that, but now they've made it more about themselves than they've made it about the Lord, and in that case you will never fit in in any church. No matter, you'll always be searching.

Speaker 1 1:03:09

Yes.

Speaker 5 1:03:11

And not just searching for a building.

Speaker 1 1:03:15

Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 1:03:16

Searching for, because you haven't found it yet. Right, yeah, right To me I could go in a dark cave Right Searching, because you haven't found it yet.

Speaker 1 1:03:20

Right, yeah, right Right.

Speaker 5 1:03:21

To me I could go in a dark cave somewhere you haven't found that relationship, right yeah? I could go in a dark cave somewhere and worship just as much as in this church. Yeah, that's the thing. It doesn't matter to me. Yeah, you know what I needed to found.

Speaker 5 1:03:37

I found a long time ago but I still have to work at it. That's the thing. I still have to work at it. You know, it's just not going to like I said with me being a writer. It's like I just can't be like, yeah, you know what I really want to be a writer.

Speaker 3 1:03:48

I can worship and praise when I'm out on my walk.

Speaker 1 1:03:51

I've got my phone in my back pocket with my.

Speaker 3 1:03:53

K-Love playing. Yeah, in the yard pulling my weeds Yep.

Speaker 5 1:03:57

You got to make time? Yeah, because it is not going to be given to you, not in this world. It's just not Excellent. And, yeah, I think young people and that's why, when that kid came to me and said well, I just don't feel like I'm old enough to be starting being in a church group and I'm thinking no, this is the exact time in your life Because when you were younger. If you haven't started a family yet, you do have the time.

Speaker 1 1:04:25

You have the time and the energy and the fire to start To build that and build it up and really get it going.

Speaker 4 1:04:30

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:04:31

Because guess what, If you try to start it once you're married and have kids and all these responsibilities that ain't so easy You're way behind the eight ball.

Speaker 1 1:04:42

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, yeah.

Speaker 5 1:04:44

You know, young people, you've got to start the fire now and build it.

Speaker 4 1:04:48

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:04:49

And keep it burning. But I think that's easier if you take it when you're young and establish it you know, just like you're establishing everything else You're establishing your career more likely.

Speaker 1 1:04:59

You're establishing your financial goals, your house goals. You know everything.

Speaker 5 1:05:04

Yeah, and that's a great point, for young people is boy. I wish I could go back and do it over again, everything.

Speaker 3 1:05:10

I know now oh, absolutely, because then I?

Speaker 5 1:05:12

would think, yeah, I'm going to have my finances all set up.

Speaker 4 1:05:16

I'm going to have you know. Yes.

Speaker 5 1:05:19

I know all the pitfalls. You know I'm gonna have you know. Yes, yeah, I have. I know all the pitfalls. I'm gonna plan all these things out and, yeah, I'm gonna start my walk with the lord a lot earlier and you're gonna build it right now as you've got the time you've got the energy. You got no distractions, but your own yep you know no responsibilities. That's the time when you should be doing it.

Speaker 1 1:05:37

Yeah, yeah, especially like the kids. And I'm just thinking like during COVID you know, I didn't have Cooper, I had I was going on two, three walks a day because, first off, I didn't have a job, I went from working full time to, hey, we can't work, you know. So that's when I really built mine and because I had that time and had that energy and I don't know, I mean, I think with the kids that are in college, you know, let's say, part time, I don't know how many semester hour gosh credits, that 20 maybe, is that still part time? Part time, yeah, but you know, say you did that.

Speaker 5 1:06:15

I think 28 hours is part time.

Speaker 1 1:06:18

Okay, yeah Something like that you know, even if you did that and worked part-time and you know you'd still have time to do to get into the Word.

Speaker 5 1:06:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:06:29

A little more than I'd say a normal adult. I don't know. I could be, I could be lying, I don't know.

Speaker 5 1:06:35

No, as human beings, we waste an awful lot of time.

Speaker 5 1:06:39

Yes, we do oh yeah, we waste so much time, you know, and it's just you don't realize it until somebody starts pointing it out to you Like, wow, you could actually add up all the time you wasted in a week either desk scrolling on your phone or sitting in front of the TV I don't know, just sitting in a chair. Just I'm too tired to get up and do anything. Sleeping, sleeping, yeah, it would just break your heart if you saw at the end of your life, how much time you wasted.

Speaker 2 1:07:09

Nick's got a spy cam at my house, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 1:07:17

So it's there for the taking. That's the thing. It's there for the taking, but you've got to make time. Just like we've said before, it's like any other relationship. You can't expect your relationship with your wife or husband to work if you're never there. If you're only willing to invest one hour out of a whole week to that person, that relationship is not going to last. It's the same thing with the Lord.

Speaker 2 1:07:42

Yeah, it will. That's why mine's lasted 50 years.

Speaker 1 1:07:55

Oh man Linda.

Speaker 5 1:07:57

Linda, linda Linda In most cases, Roger. I'm trying to make a point here. Yeah, linda Linda In most cases, roger.

Speaker 2 1:08:02

I'm trying to make a point here, yeah come on.

Speaker 5 1:08:04

Well, yeah, but we've got to bring it back to reality too, but yeah, if you go to church for one hour, if you're there for an hour, my guess is if you're leaving I would say, in most cases, if you're leaving the church and that's all you're doing is putting in an hour a week, well, you're done. It's probably going to be a continuing cycle oh yeah, yeah, you know it. Just, I think it's like anything else you're going to give up, you're going to lose the fire you're going to yep you know, get get excited about something else for a while, whether it's pickleball, like I know.

Speaker 5 1:08:43

Pickleball for a while was like a huge phase everybody's buying these paddles and our kids were playing every night and it was just all the rage. And now them paddles are just sitting in the garage collecting cobwebs and nobody knows where they are. One of them's broke. It's like yeah, yeah, how do they make, how do they are One of them's broke.

Speaker 2 1:09:02

It's like, yeah, yeah, how do they make balls out of pickles?

Speaker 5 1:09:06

Oh, you'd be surprised.

Speaker 2 1:09:08

Oh, they got a press. Yeah, pickle ball, press, pickle ball press.

Speaker 5 1:09:13

They cure for a long time. They cure for a long time, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:09:19

Throw some epoxy on it.

Speaker 2 1:09:23

Who comes up with some of this dumb stuff?

Speaker 5 1:09:26

Well, it's just like tennis on a smaller court. It's like a wiffle ball almost yeah it's like a wiffle ball, I don't know. It's like for people that can't play tennis and don't have the drive or the fire to actually learn how to play tennis. And you don't have to run around as much you know. So yeah, we came up with pickleball.

Speaker 1 1:09:46

It's a lazy man's tennis game yeah, but I thought that's what ping pong ping pong was yeah, well, yeah, but that ball's a lot smaller, the paddle's smaller, the table's smaller yeah, but the table is probably maybe a little smaller than the pickle ball. I would say huh, because the pickle ball is like in the tennis court, like they have lines.

Speaker 1 1:10:13

Yeah, it's pretty yeah it's not even like you're playing full court yeah like you do with tennis yeah, like it's a little wider than this, I'd say and they put two people in there to play on each side.

Speaker 2 1:10:25

Well two and two.

Speaker 1 1:10:26

One and then one. Yeah, do they do two and two?

Speaker 5 1:10:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:10:30

Oh man, man, you'd be bumping into each other, hitting each other with a hat.

Speaker 1 1:10:35

Yeah, oh yeah.

Final Thoughts and Prayer

Speaker 2 1:10:37

Nobody wants to play with me because they'd be black and blue. Yeah, oh, anyway.

Speaker 1 1:10:45

Well, any parting wisdom.

Speaker 5 1:10:50

Like I said, just realize it's not always going to be about you.

Speaker 2 1:10:55

It's not always going to be about you.

Speaker 5 1:10:56

It's not always going to be about you and in the end, like any great relationship or anything you know, the fire is going to wear off and it does come down to discipline and trust. That's right, and putting your time in yeah. Got to put your time in, yeah, and I think you'll see less people that stick around yeah, um, and perhaps you you'll. You'll get over a lot of that immaturity and you'll build yourself up to you know, yeah, you're growing, yeah you know that's the way I look at.

Speaker 5 1:11:34

If somebody in the church is behaving badly, I know it's. You know it's not my job or anything, but somebody's behaving badly I know it's. You know it's not my job or anything, but if somebody's behaving badly in the church, it's like well, that's, that's on them. Yeah, it's not going to affect my relationship with the Lord. Right, I just you know unless unless they're trying to set fire to the building or you know something crazy, I mean but if it's just because they're sitting in their seats sulking Mm-hmm, yeah, that's on them.

Speaker 1 1:11:58

You're wasting your hour and a half because you're sulking about who knows what you need to reevaluate what you're doing. That's all I got yeah, I think that's all I have.

Speaker 2 1:12:15

I'm done.

Speaker 4 1:12:16

No, you're not it's your turn to pray because you skipped last week.

Speaker 2 1:12:25

I can't help it. Yeah, but I don't miss very many weeks. No, you don't.

Speaker 1 1:12:31

But we're not going to give you a pass though. Well, we can give him a pass.

Speaker 5 1:12:34

I mean he's still invested in the Lord when he's not here.

Speaker 1 1:12:37

Right? Maybe that's true. That's true. It in the lord when he's not here, right? Maybe that's true. That's true, although last week I don't think you it wasn't, he wasn't in the what's he doing? He was somewhere else, I don't know.

Speaker 2 1:12:48

He wasn't in the oh yeah, I, I, yes, I was. I was in my bible because I had to. Uh, I had a meeting with my uh uh niece and her to be husband because, oh, I'm going to marry them, oh nice.

Speaker 1 1:13:02

Well, there you go.

Speaker 2 1:13:05

So I had a meeting with them.

Speaker 5 1:13:07

Well see there.

Speaker 1 1:13:11

I apologize, I'm sorry. All right, take it on.

Speaker 2 1:13:16

Heavenly father, we do Thank you, lord, for this day. Lord, we just asked you to take and be with this podcast. Be with those listeners, lord, that have heard the word and heard what we had to say today. Lord, you know we all have an opinion, lord, and it's ours, but you know you need to listen to the Lord, listen to his words, read his words, listen to the sermons that the pastors put out, lord, because they're for you. Lord, if you get hurt, sit back and think about it. Maybe it's to help you grow, to help you through this world, lord, to help you get to heaven. Lord, we just thank you and praise you, lord, for being with us, for watching over us, for keeping us safe. Lord, keep us safe until we get back here again. Lord, and be with those that are listening, and we just ask this all in Jesus' most precious name. Amen.

Speaker 3 1:14:19

Amen.