Faith, Family, And The Abraham Test

What holds a family together when the ground keeps shifting? We sit down with Margaret for a raw, generous conversation about marriage dynamics, mother-hearts, and the faith that steadies a growing, blended household. Our story opens with honest contrasts—one of us overthinks, the other gets things done—and moves into the real-life pressures of expanding holidays, new marriages, and the daily choice to love in the middle of complexity.

We anchor the talk in Abraham and Sarah, not as distant saints but as a couple who knew waiting, jealousy, and impossible promises. Margaret shares candidly about the ache of infertility and why Sarah’s laughter hits so close to home when hope has aged past reason. We explore Hagar’s wilderness moment and the comfort of the God who sees, Ishmael’s blessing, and the tension that rises when Isaac arrives and inheritance shifts. The text’s quiet spaces—how Hagar entered the home, what Sarah felt on the day Abraham walked with Isaac—invite us to consider the emotions behind obedience and the cost of trust.

From there we lean into the altar on Moriah and what faith looks like when the knife is raised. Abraham’s words, the ram in the thicket, and Mary’s grief at the cross frame a deeper look at how mothers and fathers often carry sacrifice differently. We don’t reduce roles to clichés; instead we talk about presence, provision, discipline, prayer, and the mentors who call us toward better futures. Along the way we share practical takeaways for blended families and busy homes: protect what matters, slow down anger, name each person’s strengths, and make room for worship that shapes the week.

If your family feels complex, you’re not alone—and you’re not without a map. Press play, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review to help others find the show. Then tell us: where have you seen the God who sees show up in your home?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Welcome back, everybody. Once again, we are at Organic Church, and this is Growing Together season four. And here we are again. I'm ready to talk about some more. Hopefully, we got some more interesting topics for you. Of all the special guests that we've had here, this might be the topper. You know, if you were a listener early on, if you followed us at all, you might have heard once in a while our Margie minute. Well, tonight we've got a whole hour of Margie because my beautiful wife, Margaret, over here is sitting here and she's ready to do her first podcast with us. I'm very happy to have her. So everybody out there, just give a fake round of applause, you know, just take a moment. Because yeah, this is a big one. And it took a lot of encouraging, did it not, Margaret?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

It sure did.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

It sure did. She's like, before we went on, she's like, Are you sure you really want to do this? Do we really have to do this? I'm like, Yeah, she'll be fine. You'll be fine. We're just talking. So yeah, it took quite a bit of encouraging to get you to come on here and help us keep this thing going. And she's always, you know, when I get home, she always wants to ask, Well, what was about? You know, what did you talk about? And was it good? And now she'll know, now you'll know firsthand how good it is, because you're right here. So you're live, ready to go. So now, I guess the first thing that I probably want to say is that Margaret and I have been married for what, seven years now? Seven years. Okay, so without a doubt, she is the strong-minded one of the family. She is, she's she's the strong one. She's the one that always has a plan. She's the one that keeps the household going. She's the one with all the energy. A lot of times, you know, she's she's got to keep me going. So that's the first thing is I'm a type of person that really likes to think about things a lot. I like to be in my own head a lot. I like to kind of get lost in thought and things, things of that nature. And and she you're more the type that, you know, you you want to act, you want to get things done. You don't want to do too much thinking about it when your mind's set on something. Let's go. Let's let's let's do it. There's no time to think about it or any of those things. So that's definitely kind of how we you know, how we defer a little bit. But I think we make a pretty good team, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

I think so.

Our Marriage And Family Dynamic

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Think so? Yeah. So yeah. So, like any, you know, husband and wife, you know, we we we've got many challenges, and you know, we have a very complex family dynamic. You know, the family's family's starting to grow a little bit. We've already got, we've got one year boys married, and we've got one grandchild already. We got one on the way. So, you know, the holidays are getting bigger, family's getting bigger. So it's getting interesting. There's a lot of, you know, like I said, there's a lot of dynamic to it now. Where like when we first got married, not so much. There were times I think we spent a lot of the holiday time by ourselves. So it's just interesting how fast that time has gone. And now we can kind of we're kind of getting into that different kind of family dynamic where things are really kind of starting to take shape for us. So we're kind of excited about it, but it always comes with a certain amount of challenges, as I'm sure any family does. And that's what Margaret and I are going to be talking about for the next couple episodes. It's just kind of the how how God affects the family dynamic, how how a family can be closer by faith and go through challenges together by faith. And we're actually going to use Abraham and Sarah to open this up and kind of give us this example of this complex family dynamic that took it took a lot of faith for them to grow and to do as God wanted them to do. Because whether you know it or not, you know, people lived a lot longer back then. So, you know, people live hundreds of years in early biblical times. So it it's, you know, it's just interesting how we think, how we think of age and how we think of time. And the fact that in biblical times, and it may have been, it may not even been, I don't know, I'm not really too sure about this. It may have been that they tracked the years differently. Maybe it's they weren't really hundreds uh hundreds of years old, as we would think so. But but that's how they kind of kept track of us. You'll notice in the early Old Testament, people are living for hundreds of years in in a lot of cases. So I guess Margaret, the first thing that I think we need to talk about is you have a very, very strong love for your kids.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

You are, I would say you are a very involved mother in your in your child's lives. You're you're you're involved in everything. You're very hands-on with all your children, even despite the fact that you know, besides Maggie, they're all grown, they're grown boys, right? Um but yeah, but you but you still have a hand on their lives, and and you're always there for them. You know, if they call, you're picking up the phone anytime. You're just a really, I think, a really hands-on mother. And and it's and I think you you have a lot of passion for that. Like you're just very you just have a very strong bond with them. And I wonder I guess the first thing is when you when you were young, how do you think the experiences you had when you were a child may have affected how you parented yourself? Like, do you think there was anything about that that made you decide that like when I have children, you know, this is this is how I'm gonna do things? Or or is it more just like it just is does it come that natural to you that you know you you don't you don't know quite know where it comes from?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

I don't know. You know, though, growing up, my mom was a great mom. She was, she was always there for us, she did everything for us. So as a child, as a preteen, she was a great mom. They they really didn't miss anything, but I feel like I fail my kids on a daily you know that about like no matter how much I reach out to them, no matter how much I do, I think I should have done this, I should do so much more for them. Yeah, so I don't I don't know. You you saying all that, that's that's nice, but you know how I am, how I feel about myself, and even as a meme, I feel like we've little Faye down all the time, and she's just so wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

But well, and I think that was part of the attraction for me to you was you reminding me so much of my mother, because my mom would do that all the time. It doesn't matter what she had done, no matter how well she tried to do it. It was always do you think so and so is mad at me? Do you think they're you know, do you think they're upset with me? Did I not do enough? Did we, you know, she always questioned that how good of a mother she was.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah. Well, yeah, I you know, I d I don't ever think the kids are mad at me or or anything like that. I just think, well, maybe we should do more. Maybe we should get them more, maybe we should step up more than we do. But I don't know that I've ever Maggie, yeah, she's mad at me all the time, but she is 14. But the boys, uh, I don't I don't feel like they're ever mad at me. But those are my boys. So I don't know. I just do the best I can. Yeah. But they are my first and foremost. They are the most important things in my life. And I love you, but those kids. Right. Yeah. Those are my kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

And you're just very protective. Like your your temper can go from one to ten if you think those kids are being endangered at all, insulted at all. Anything like that. You're you're ready to jump right in, defend them. Yeah, you're not the kind of like mom to be like, well, you gotta figure it out for yourself. I think you're ready to jump right on the front line and almost do it for them.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, and that's how you wish I was.

Faith At Home And Generational Influence

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Like sometimes, because I think sometimes it's important, yeah, to let kids make their own choices, make mistakes. Yeah, you know, that's definitely how, and maybe that's even more of a dad thing. But yeah, yeah, you are definitely just ready at any any second.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Okay, speaking of your mom, would she have been the same way? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, she was that way. You know, she was just, you know. But she took it like as we were talking about, she took it upon herself. Like she would, if she didn't think she had done enough in that regard, she would criticize herself. She'd feel bad. Like I was like, mom, I'm good, I'm okay, you know. We're all right. And she would just still question, you know, she could have done more.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Or did I teach them the right things? Are they doing the things that they need to do to get through everyday life? Yeah. No, I think that's our job. And I mean, as far as just kids behaving, that's your job as a mother. You need to teach those children to sit, you need to teach your kids to behave. That's your job. And I know a lot of people would say, well, there's a dad. No, I for me, that's mom's job. She know how I am. Like that's just I I've always been the one that the one to discipline my kids, the ones that that's just too I think it's my personality too. It's not because their dad didn't do that. It's it was just me. That's just how I am. Like I wanted my kids to behave, so they had to behave. I think that's our how we were raised, too. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Like Well, I was raised in a house where my dad was at work. Like he worked afternoon, so it was mom every day. Yeah, we saw dad on the weekends, but mom was, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Right. So if you didn't behave, a lot of times they would use wait until your dad gets home. Yeah. Not that that meant a whole lot. Sometimes it did. Sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Sometimes. But I think she was so good that there weren't a lot of those times.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah.

unknown 11:25

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

In fact, I honestly, if I think back on it, we probably misbehave more when he was there. Like come summer break when he'd be in there in the mornings before you go to work. It seems like we wouldn't be on the best behavior. And maybe that's maybe that had something to do with that. Like we because maybe because our mom was so good, we tried to be good for her. You know, we tried not to be too bad, you know, if we if we could help it.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And with dad down, I think moms put their guard down a little bit. Like, yeah, it's your turn. Yeah. You take care of these kids, and then within a half a day, you're like, just go outside or something. The kids aren't listening. I have to take care of this myself.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

But I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

I I feel like I'm so blessed though. You know, all my kids. I have such great kids. And the two boys have picked just wonderful women to marry. I mean, Spencer's married to Shay, and Charlie will soon be married to Elatris, and just two wonderful girls. I'm so happy with that. No, we just gotta get Seth. Gotta get himself a wonderful woman. And and Maggie's only 14, so we don't even need to speak of that yet. Nope. But I do. I have great kids and great daughter-in-laws, and we've been blessed.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Mm-hmm. We have.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah. We just need to get your son back around. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah. Talk about, you know. Well, what do you think you know what a mom's role is. You've defined that pretty well. So what do you think the dad's role is in the family? I mean, what do you think a male should be doing with his family as far as leading the way?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I don't know. Never thought about it? No, I mean, yeah, you guys are supposed to provide because I'm still, even though I'm going to be 48, I feel like women should have it should be able to stay home and take care of their children. You shouldn't have to work. And I know this is a society where you're supposed to have two people working, but you can get around that. You don't have to have two brand new cars. You don't have to have a brand new house. You can wait to get all that after those kids are in school because that's very important for moms to be there with their kids. I think that's I think that's why so many kids are so well-rounded that are that are older than these younger kids because they had mom at home. Don't get me wrong, some of us still mess up and have messed up big time. You know, we have siblings, we have cousins, we have everything that have been through really hard times. And they've probably had a mom that stayed home. So I'm not saying that's to fix all things, but I think if you're able to do that, that's one thing I think you should do. But few and far between have I ever seen men that are the leaders in church, as far as my family goes. You're the first one that has ever been that way with my life. My dad, I don't know that he even went to church every Sunday with us. It was mom that kind of pushed it, and it was more of a Sunday school thing. And then my ex-husband, he really didn't like going either. So that was always me. Hey, we're getting up, we're going to church. So, but I think that's a big thing, and I think that's wonderful when a woman can find a man that's like following God and wants to go to church. It's a that's a big deal. But that's not that doesn't happen very often.

A Mother’s Role And Discipline

SPEAKER_02 14:45

No, you're right. Yeah, it is. I mean, we went to church when we were young, and I and I remember that quite vividly. I don't recall or feel that it was one or the other, you know, having more of an effect on that. For some reason to me it seemed pretty equal, maybe it wasn't. But yeah, you know my dad, he was very quiet. You know, he didn't have a whole lot to say, but he did speak about God quite a bit. I mean, if you if you asked him or needed advice, sure enough, he would he would speak his faith. He would have things to say of that nature, you know. Now my mom, she was very upfront about it from the time we were little. And I remember, you know, being very little, you know, and saying the Lord's Prayer. And, you know, her one saying, you know, she told me until the day she died was just never turn your back on Jesus. You know, no matter what you do, no matter what mistakes you make, no matter where you go, no matter how bad you think things are, no matter how good things are, just don't ever turn your back on Jesus. Like that's the most important thing. And so she would talk about God all the time. So she she was, and especially with her illness, she had her own set of challenges with that. But that face would always shine through, and there was just there was a lot of moments where you know she'd be in remission and then it came back, and she could be going through treatments, and they could be pretty rough on her. I mean, because back then they were really rough, you know, the radiation and the chemo, I mean, it would knock her out for a couple weeks. And so sometimes right before that and during and after, you know, she would take to her bedroom and we wouldn't see her. I mean, and think about that. Like we were we had the perfect childhood, I would say, up to that point. We had like a wonder years type childhood, and then all of a sudden she gets this illness, she gets cancer, and then all of a sudden we wouldn't see our mom for weeks at a time. So there's just all this empty void, and you know, I had to learn to grow up really, really quick and do a lot of things and kind of be, you know, I missed out on doing a lot of things a normal teenager would do. But a lot of times she'd go into that bedroom and you think she's never coming out, like this is this is the last time, and then sure enough, she she'd come back out and she'd be just like a brand new person. She's like, I'm I'm not ready to go yet, or I've still got plenty to do. I want to see you kids grow up, I want to see you have kids. And it would just, if you needed to see faith, you know, if you needed to see it, not believe it, for me, that was it. Like, yeah, it was almost like seeing somebody on the brink of death just keep coming back. And it was just like, how does she do this? You know, but she would. And and so that that had a big effect on me. And my mom was that, like I said, my mom was that very hands-on mom who she was always there. I mean, there just there's she was just she she never thought of herself or you know, left us behind to go do something. I mean, she was always there, so she was a very, very committed to to motherhood. And and my dad, I think, was committed to fatherhood, but you know, he worked on the railroad, he was uh worked a lot of evenings, so yeah, we would see him on the weekends, and and so and like I said, my mom was very vocal, you know, she was she she could speak her mind, my dad was very quiet, he was very reserved, so he didn't have a whole lot to say, but when he did, you know, you could count on him to, you know, you knew where he stood on things like that. So I think for them going to church, I think it was equal. It felt that way to me. And I know we went for quite a while until, and I think we did go pretty regularly until she got sick. So that's kind of my what I remember as being a kid, and as far as my family situation with growing into you know a young Christian.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yeah, which is wonderful because my parents did not, they never spoke of God. I and we did go to church very little, it was the Moravian church, and that was because grandma went, and grandma spoke of God, but not like just in just a little bit here and there, especially losing her son at 25. I mean, you'd hear a little bit about that, and so I think she had very strong faith, but my parents, that's one thing. I don't know if it was almost like taboo to speak of God, to speak of church, because nobody ever did. We we never did until Aunt Florence opened a church, and then we all started going. And as a teenager, I started coming here in the youth group. I think that's where I really that opened my eyes to to God because I before, yeah, we'd go to the Maraving Church, and that's just it was just fun, you know. We learned a little bit here and there as kids, but nothing like this church, this Pentecostal church with Aunt Florence and the way that that woman loved everybody. It was just that was eye-opening because I love my parents, I love them to death, but they're not like that. They're just not very acceptant to most things and will love you through those things. Aunt Florence loved everybody through everything, always. And so are that that's the same with her sisters, and it that's why it's so hard for me to wrap my head around the way that my father is, because my aunts are just the most wonderful women in the whole world. And you know that. And if it wasn't for them, my life would be so much different right now. Because they they're just they're just great women and they follow God, every one of them. And and I'm so glad they're my aunts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yeah, I know you and I were very connected. The fact that we both could talk about God, I think was a huge factor for both of us.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, I've never had that before.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah. So the fact that we could have that open dialogue was a big deal. But I do remember you started going to church and I wasn't going with you at the time. Right. And I I had reservations about it. Not to go into a long story, but I was still trying to fight my battle my own way. Like I went just went through that period where I had had so much disappointment and frustration that I decided to try to run my life myself. And yeah, that didn't work out too well. Yeah. Didn't work out at all. And I know you you may have asked me to go a couple times and and I didn't go. Well, at first I and you start talking about this Florence. And you come back and you just be talking about this Florence. Well, she wanted to meet you, just and I was very like, I I just don't know. I just felt like I was gonna have I was gonna be judged, like I was gonna have that judgment, and I just wasn't ready for that. But I'll never forget the first time I met her. The look on her face was like somebody that was looking at me like I was the greatest thing in the world. Like, like she saw all like all the potential that I had thought I'd lost, all the all the good things that I had thought I'd lost. You know, I thought she was going to see everything that I thought I was at the time, and probably everything that I was at the time, but she didn't. She saw everything that I was before I let myself, you know, get so run down and lose my self-esteem and all those things. And she just looked, yeah, she just looked up at me, you know, like I was the greatest thing in the world. And the moment she started talking to me, it was just like you knew like this woman had God's love in her heart. Oh, yeah. And she wanted to do whatever she could to get to get me back, to get me back right. She didn't need to know my story. No, she didn't need to ask me questions or you know, dive really deep into it all. She just immediately was like, Yep, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

And she just and as you saw her with people through the years, that's how she treated everything. Yeah, she would hug you and say she loved you. Didn't matter what you were going through. Because we all have our struggles daily, daily, we all have our struggles. Yeah. But that woman, she just I just can't say because she was that wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah, she was. She was, and yeah. We we uh still miss her between her and my dad, you know, passing almost very close. Yeah, you know, that was there was two big losses for us. Was it October and then February and February?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Lost them both.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

So yeah. Because just when we were we were finding our footing, yeah, kind of getting, you know, the momentum going, and then yeah, we had both of those and just but I don't think but that didn't crush us. I mean, it it you know, we were obviously we were I was just gonna say we were you know obviously sad and you know just couldn't believe that we had lost both of them, but we weren't like crushed. We weren't it didn't it didn't stop our momentum like what she what she was doing I think the way that she treated me and the way my dad treated you it just like it carried us right through, even though we lost them, it carried us right through because with then we were just able to talk about them, yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

So yeah, it definitely had and we know where those two are. We know they are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And those were some special without a doubt, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Two very kind people that never loved everybody. Loved everybody, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

It's the same for your dad. The first time he met me, I was nervous about the whole situation just because of our situation. And he hugged me. Yeah, and he loved me from the from day one. He treated my children like they were his grandchildren. He didn't have to do that, he did it, and they loved him. My kids loved him. My nephew TJ was just crushed.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Oh, ball and all. Oh, when you got past. I mean, and it's not like he spent a whole lot of time on it.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

That that really did that shows you how Jeep was. Yeah. Like he just people could feel the love from that man. Yeah, so we we definitely, as hard as our life has been, we've been blessed with so many great things.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yep. Well, it just goes to show you that when you have people of God who love you and are hovering over you, looking after you, it just makes up for so much.

unknown 25:22

You know.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah.

Church, Mentors, And Coming Back To God

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Really does. So I wanted to talk about Abraham and Sarah a little bit, because it's it's a pretty, like I said, we're talking about family dynamics, and it's a really interesting story. Because God is eventually going to call on Abraham, you know, to to lead his people. But if we just narrow it down to Abraham and his wife Sarah, really interesting thing is in early in the Bible, Abraham's name is just Abram. And Sarah's name is like Sari, like S-A-R-A-I. So they have these different names. And I think it's when God decides that Abraham is going to be ruler of all people, he he's going to be the head of all people. There's a significance to that extra A that makes him Abraham, because now he's going to be, you know, head of all. And he also changes Sarah's name as well. So he in the Bible it says, you know, Abram, now you're going to be Abraham, Sari, now you're going to be Sarah. So he calls that out and gives them.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I know I love that about the Bible because when they do that, you know me. I don't retain names, anyways. And then they start mixing it up. I'm like, oh my gosh, so hard to follow. But yeah, that happens a lot in the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Yeah. So Abraham, the first interesting thing about Abraham is he's he's told to just during the great famine, he he's told to pick up everything, his family and everything, and go to Egypt. And you got to think about that. Like, okay, you're asking me to pick up, move away from everything I've ever known, everybody else, every just everything, and and trust that I'm going to this foreign land to survive and to do as God wants you to do. So, and in total, and that's the most important part is just as we talked about Noah building the ark, you know, on a mountain with no water around him, he does this in total faith. And the same thing with Abraham. He he he picks up and he moves in total faith and does what God tells him to do. Now there's there's one difficulty in Abraham and Sarah's relationship is that Sarah cannot bear a child. So they go years and years and years, and all the while, you know, the Lord's telling them, like, you know, Sarah, you know, you will be with child. And at one point, you know, she actually laughs at God, like, what would make you think that I would have a child? I'm like 90 years old, like my time is past. So when Abraham and Sarah really think that their time is past, Sarah comes up with this idea to, okay, I have this maidservant, Hagar, who it's interesting because she's described as an Egyptian servant. And I would love to know how she came to get an Egyptian servant. You think it would be the other way around, but somehow she acquires, the Bible doesn't tell us how how Hagar came to be a servant under Sarah, but there she is. And Sarah comes up with this idea, which they say was quite normal at the time. Since I can't bear a child with Abraham, Hagar, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you to my husband as a midwife, and you are going to basically have my baby. So Hagar agrees to it. She probably didn't have much choice anyway. If she's a servant, she's probably told to do it, let's face it. Abraham agrees to it. So Hagar and Abraham lay with each other, and they have a child, and they have Ishmael. And so, right off the bat, think about that. Now there's an interesting family dynamic to think about. Is now you have you, I don't know if obviously I'm su Sarah had a lot of mixed feelings about this because I'm sure that she felt very, you know, just it's hard. Maybe you can describe how Sarah would feel. If you well, if you couldn't have a baby, well, that's and then you gotta bring this other woman in to do it. How would you feel?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Well, no, that's what I was gonna say. I suffered through infertility for three years before I had my twins. And all you want is a baby after you go through so many years, and she went through way more years than I did. You want a baby so bad. Like I can imagine doing the same exact thing because as a woman, I guess not all women feel that way, but as a woman, that's that's who you are. That you figure, and that's just how you feel inside. Like, I'm here to have a baby. I've I've always felt that way since I was a teenager. That I want to be a mom. That's all that I ever wanted was children.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

And so you didn't you didn't grow up thinking I want to be a nurse or I want to be not an athlete or I wanted to be mom.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

That was it. I wanted a baby. It's you know, I I just wanted to be a mom. And then when I got married and it took years, and I suffered through infertility, and I saw people having babies, and then you just like you just sit there and cry because what did I do wrong that my body doesn't work properly? So you, you know, you go through all those things. And lucky, luckily for me, it wasn't a big process. I was able to I have four beautiful kids now, but I did suffer through that. So I get it. I get how she felt. And I would have probably done the same thing, to be honest, because then you didn't have infertility doctors, you didn't have everything they can do that they do today. So that was the only way. And again, I don't know that every woman feels the way I feel, but I would have felt that way. And then you would be and then you would have had all those emotions, like my husband just laid with her. So you'd have that all in the back of your head, but you would have a baby.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah, plus this woman sticking around, she's not going anywhere. It's not like she, you know, did the deed and like, okay, well, you know, good luck. No, I mean she's there almost to be raised a child as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

You have surrogaccies where they have the baby and then they leave, they're out of the picture. So that would be hard because you're not you then you're not the mother. You're just a second woman there taking care of that child. But it would still be a baby, so it would still be a blessing. For me, that's how I would look at it. Again, I know not all women are like me, but that is exactly how I feel. If I could have had six, eight kids, I'd had more kids.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, and the and the Bible tells us that the moment when Hagar's pregnant, even Sarah starts to despise her. So just just just the simple fact that, oh, this woman can do this and I can't.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah, that was what I was gonna say. That's what it was. And again, and then you beat yourself up because why why isn't my body able to do this? How did she get to do that so fast? And even me to this day. And I hear people, I want to have a baby, and the next month they're like, I'm pregnant. There's still even almost like a jealousy factor for me to this day because that wasn't me. That was never me.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah, well, and she's gotta know, you know, Abraham, I'm sure, has told her, like, you know, God has came to me and told me, you know, that I'm gonna be the leader of all these people and we're gonna be highly blessed. And and she's got to be thinking, well, what are you talking about? Like, how could we be so blessed when I can't even have a child with you? You know, why wouldn't the Lord, if the Lord's gonna give us all of these people, why wouldn't they give us our own, why wouldn't he give us our own child? So you can definitely understand how she would have felt. I think she, I don't know if she'd have felt a little isolated in the moment. Like, okay, you know, Abraham's got his mission and he's blessed, and now Hagar's having my baby. And what am I doing? Like, what's my place in God's kingdom? My, you know, I'm here to raise somebody else's child, basically. Like, I I guess I could see how she would have laughed in the face of God, thinking, yeah, okay, I'm you know, 90 years old now. Really, you know, my there's no way I'm gonna have this baby. You know, it's impossible it's impossible at this point. You know, looking at all the rules laid out, looking at how life's supposed to work, she's just like she can't, she can't possibly see that.

Introducing Abraham And Sarah

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Well, yeah, and that's the way that God has wired us as women is our we're we're nurturing, we want babies. Our body is just it's set up that way with our hormones and everything. So I I I can just imagine how she felt. Because as much as you want heaven and you want to follow God, and we just have that in us that we want babies. Again, I'm not speaking for all women because I know that that's not how every woman, but I'd have to say a majority of us, you just you have that inside you, and it's it's the greatest thing in the world is to to be a mother, to have your baby, and to even be pregnant, I thought was just wonderful. So that had to be rough on her.

unknown 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

And she actually blames, she can kind of get so angry, you know, she's blaming Abraham for it, and she's gonna get so mad that she's gonna, you know, she's gonna send her servant away. You know, she's gonna get so angry with her that it's gonna cause her servant to run away, and God's gonna have to bring them back into the fold, saying, like, you know, go back, go back to Sarah, continue to be her servant, continue to be faithful. You know, Ishmael is going to have blessings too. You know, he he he's gonna have blessings, and it's your place, it's your place to go back and and do as you're supposed to do. So I God actually comes to Hagar and makes a return, makes a return to Sarah. And I think it's Yeah, so he's telling Hagar that also I I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count. An angel of the Lord also said to her, You are now a child and you will have a son, you shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery, he will be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand against him. And he will live in hostility toward all his brothers. And she says, You are the God who sees me, for she said, I have now seen the one who sees me. That is why the well was called Beer Lai Roy. It is still there between Kadesh and Bared. So Hagar bore Abraham a son, and Abraham gave the name Ishmael to the son she had born. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. So the thing about this is the first part of this dynamic. What's gonna what's gonna happen is I believe when Sarah finally becomes 90 years old and Abraham is over a hundred years old, God is finally going to bless Sarah with a child. And I do believe it's this point when he's telling her that that you know she's almost laughing at him. And she's gonna she'll have a child and she'll name him Isaac. And they say that Isaac comes from it almost means to laugh, to be happy. And so some people think, oh, she named him Isaac because you know she had laughed at the Lord, thinking it was impossible to have this child, and then he's born. But the dynama is gonna get more complicated because once Isaac is born, now Isaac becomes the favorite, and Ishmael is kind of gonna be pushed aside by Sarah. So she's really gonna hover over Isaac as maybe any mother would in that situation. And so she's gonna kind of make a few missteps as far as you know making making those kind of d decisions as a mother. And it's it's interesting to think that she must know. I think she knows now that those that her and Abraham have actually had a son. Now, instead of Ishmael inheriting everything from Abraham, it it will be passed on to Isaac. So now he's gonna be, you know, he's gonna be the one that inherits inherits the kingdom, so to speak. So perhaps she would be a lot more protective towards him because of that. There's a lot, the Bible tells us a lot of stuff, and then there's there's some interesting things sometimes they leave out. Like I said, we don't know how Sarah ended up having a maidservant in the first place. The second thing I find very interesting is whether you know the story or not, when the Lord comes to Abraham and tells him that he has to sacrifice his son, Isaac, there's no record of what Sarah has to say about it. I find that very interesting. How would you feel as a mother? I I think maybe to go into this a little bit more, one of the one of the things that happens is that at some point Ishmael teases Isaac in front of a group of people. Like she catches him in a moment teasing Isaac, and this enrages her. And so she she wants to she wants Ishmael to leave. So it seems like I don't know, that seems like such a petty thing. I mean, kids are kids, you know, they tease each other, things like that happen, but she seemed to be so enraged by that. So the Bible tells us that. But when it's when it's time for Abraham to take that journey and sacrifice his son Isaac, does he tell Sarah that's where they're going? Does he does he make up, I want to say a lie, but does he tell her, yeah, we're going to sacrifice a donkey, or we're going to sacrifice all the stuff. We'll be back. The Bible doesn't tell us that, but I want to hear from a mother. Okay, so what if your husband would have came to you and said, Okay, this is a child that we've waited our whole lives to have together? And yes, the Lord has told us a lot of things, and all those things have. come to pass here's the next step like the Lord is saying like he wants me to sacrifice my son as a mother how how how could you how could you take that?

Infertility, Hagar, And Ishmael

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah I don't think he told her I don't think any mother's gonna let their husband walk off with their child knowing he's going to kill him. There's no way there's no way you know and as far as Mary with Jesus that that that really upsets me. I mean you talk about this quite a bit yeah because I mean I I I I feel like when Jesus was beat and hung on that cross I'm not worthy of that because the pain and the suffering he went through is just so horrific. But Mary, I just could not imagine seeing him drag my baby up the hill.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I don't care that he was uh Margie's the one every year it'll be like oh we gotta watch the passion we gotta watch the passion which I like to watch it every year but it'll get close it'll get close and she'll be like yeah we gotta watch it so we put you know we turn it on we start watching it and by the time it gets to the you know the the trial and the re and and the he starts striking crucifixion yep Mary sees it as soon as yeah as soon as the torture starts she's like we gotta turn it off and I think you actually did turn it off last time. I was like but because I'm the type of person like I gotta I gotta see this like it's so important for me to experience it. Like I have to I have to as much as as much as I can understand and see it I want to know I want to experience that at least once a year I want to experience that because you don't truly realize what he did for us yeah in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And then you as a mother much worse than what we see on the passion and but but you again you as a mother as opposed to a father yeah you have such a different outlook on it.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

And and I mean I'm not saying that I've never noticed it yeah Mary's there and she's crying and but it's kind of for me it's like yeah it's kind of dramatic.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Of course she is why wouldn't she be but you really like no you as a mother as soon as you see that your kid pops into your head as a mom you see your kid that could be my Charlie that could be my Seth that could be my Spencer just that whole thought will just make me ball. And I mean it makes me it it upsets me that Jesus did that for us like just so bad but to think that that was her child. And again I Yeah because nobody else experiences it like that.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Mary is the only one that can experience it from that point of view. Yeah she knows he's the savior yeah and she but that doesn't matter I mean it's still her baby that's her baby. So she's the only one that ever except maybe for God himself that that experiences it in in quite that way.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Right and and oh I shouldn't speak for a man but I still don't think that there's which God that's a whole different thing but but for a father as a mother I just think we have a closer bond with our kids. And it's because we've carried them we've nursed them and it's and it's not like if something happens to your child you're not going to be extremely upset. But I don't know there's just something about being their mom that's just it puts it as at a different level and I'm not downgrading fathers by any means if you've ever if you've lost a child that has to be so bad. But those are our babies I just I don't know it's yeah it's just different. At least for me I again I don't like to speak for other people because not because I'm I'm a very very emotional woman mother wife everything I I I get upset I'm just just who I am and I care so much about everything from my children to my cat.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Well and you and you're probably right about Abraham because he doesn't tell Isaac either yeah because Isaac's like so where's the you know where's the offering you know and he's like well and Abraham just says the Lord will provide the offering don't worry about it. You know all the while he knows like and it's like a 50 60 mile journey that that they're on. So this isn't like some short trip up the hill from the house that he's going to do this. I mean he's actually told to go on this journey.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Well think how wonderful of a child he is to his father then to actually just go on that journey. Question a little bit keep going. You know dang well if that wasn't any of my three boys it'd be like they'd get suspicious right away like I'm going back home with mom.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah why ain't mom coming yeah I don't trust this why we leave him back yeah but yeah what a what a just a great kid that he's like listen to everything dad says he's going wrong is that my boys would not have yeah you know and it doesn't even say like it it's a point of it's a point of sacrifice because you know Abraham bounds him and you know lays him on the offering. I mean it's right it's a point a point of you know knife point or however he was choosing to do that and it seems as though Isaac just submitted to his to what his father was going to do. So yeah it's extraordinary to think that you know what's Abraham gonna say when he gets home you know what's he gonna tell I mean at that point I suppose he has to tell her the truth but still I mean can you imagine if he'd had to go through it and the and have an agonizing 50, 60 mile journey back home but but you know God was testing Abraham. You know it you know the angel at the last moment, you know, the angel of the Lord is going to come out and say don't touch that child. You know you have proven yourself. You have proven your faith by doing again exactly as God has told you to do and that that's all that God was looking for there. You know God knew that there was no point in time where Abraham was going to actually sacrifice his son but it was something that God had put him to the test to do and it's just interesting that he does that knowing that at some point he is going to God is going to sacrifice his own son for the world. And sometimes you wonder it's like oh was this like some preparation for God himself you know to you know to test man and to test himself and to you know just you know knowing that because he had to he had to know before he had asked Abraham to do that that at some point yes Jesus was going to be crucified. So that's interesting to think about too is just you know what God was thinking in that moment and and and watching Abraham respond to that in the way that he did it's pretty pretty extraordinary. Yeah and a lot of times these again again a lot of these stories you know we read them in in Bible school when we're young and like oh yeah well he you know he took him up to the mountain and he homo sacrificed him and we don't think you know they're great stories and and that's the way we look at them as children and and you and especially a lot of Old Testament stuff you hear about and you're like yeah I know that story. Heard it a hundred times but you just don't really think about the emotions and the faith behind these things that real people had to go through it. Like I said it wasn't like he just took him up on the hill behind the house like he had to go through this agonizing 50 60 mile on foot yeah knowing that you know this is what was before him. Right. And until the angel of the Lord stops him he thinks like this is what I got to do.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Well yeah and as a child you don't you don't understand the emotions as an adult you you don't understand the love you have for your children when you're that child. And that's why children do so many things that that could they could get killed and because they just don't understand. But we as a we adults and moms and dads you you you get all that so these stories are just so much different when we get to this point in our life.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Yeah like wow and Abraham didn't lie to Isaac because once the angel of the Lord said don't touch him well there was a a ram caught in the thicket so when Abraham said don't worry the Lord will provide the sacrifice well he didn't lie. I mean the Lord did there was ended up being a ram caught up in the thicket and that's what they ended up sacrificing.

Emotions, Jealousy, And Maternal Identity

SPEAKER_00 49:29

So that's why God has men do these things it did speak the truth but although it was kind of like you know roundabout but yeah but he we are so wired differently men and women are so wired differently because I couldn't kill the ram you know what I'm saying like that's we're just so you could now what do we do you could like if you could if but I don't know that I could yeah and you know through all that if God if that would have happened and he would have sacrificed his son I think she could have gotten through that because she didn't know about it. She wasn't there and now she just has to put her whole faith in God through all that but I don't think for one second could God tell a woman I need you to sacrifice your kid because is there anywhere in the Bible that a mom has ever had to do anything to harm their children I mean Mary she had anything to do with harming him she just couldn't stop it and she knew that she understood it she did but she knew there was going to be time that he was going to grow up and he was going to start his mission and yeah and whether she fully whether she had to come to that realization just like the disciples did perhaps she did but she knew but she knew she did but I don't think she knew she knew but she knew well like any human being you you could you could think okay well yeah that he's gonna be crucified for us but could she have imagined the whippings and the no the the the the pain and the no could she have really processed all that no because even though it was for for all of us as a mother you'd have tried to hide him underneath a rock and keep him safe yeah she couldn't she wouldn't have known the day the time how it was done because if she did as a mom you would have tried everything to stop that I truly believe that even with God telling you I maybe I'm wrong. I could be wrong but we're just wires to be I mean like God has made us this way. God made me this way you know I mean like we're just we're so much different. And he did that on purpose. He made us we're the compassionate caring one and not that men aren't you are you are so much more than some men but that's that's just the difference in us.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Well us men joke at work we'll talk about our women and be like yeah you know we had to go to Home Depot and she put me in the flower garden and then she wanted to go here and we worked on this and you know we just we didn't get any time to just sit down and watch TV and and being honest that's that's how men talk about their women like you push us you push us you push us but that's but I will always say like well perhaps that's a sign is when you have a good woman is when you're constantly being pushed because otherwise us men wouldn't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Instead of getting things done and so if that's one telltale sign if you have a good woman is if she's pushing you to do things and you know getting keeping you motivated because otherwise I mean and again it's the way we're wired because you know me I want to sit down I want to watch a movie I want to do that stuff but I can't I cannot things have to be done things have to be accomplished.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

And not that you treat me like a child but it's almost but it's almost an extension of that it's almost you're looking after me the same way sometimes I do I do because yeah emotions can run high and you get frustrated and men don't always see why things are so important. You know I mean we do I mean I do in my work life like I take that like very very seriously what I do at work like I'm on top of everything. I don't let anything go I'm just focused focus focus so when I get home yeah I want to hit the couch it's just again but maybe that's how men are wired like you know after you know all this adrenaline and all this stuff all day long. It's like yeah we want to we want to sit down but yes it's almost an extension like you're looking after me almost in the same way you look after your kids. It's a little bit different of a dynamic but in in nature it's the same thing. Like you know you you don't think I'm excelling by sitting you think I you know it's like you constantly you can I a big thing about another big thing about you and I besides being able to talk about God was kind of just like your Aunt Florence like you saw my potential you were like Nick the way you're living is just stupid. Like you're doing a lot of dumb stuff like you looked at my fan finances you're like Nick this is stupid. Like what are you doing? What have you been doing? I'm like I don't know just having a good time like this I get paid I you know I find something fun to do on the weekend you know what's wrong with that and maybe there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that but when you're getting into your mid-30s and 40s you ain't got nothing in the bank no retirement yeah there's no retirement I'm thinking I ain't gonna live that long to worry about retirement why should I worry about that so it's like and that's that's one of the reasons why I'm like I know she's the right one because she's looking after me she's not just with me to have something to do or to enjoy free time and you can see the potential in me and be like okay you're just doing you just you were just really honest like you're just doing a lot of dumb stuff.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Well and that was hard for me. But I was nice like your potential even for work where you worked before this last job they they did not know what they had and I told you that before and just and that that was a blessing that was through one of our hardest times that that all came to pass because it's when your dad passed away is when you got a new job well directly after that well they didn't want to pay me bereavement. They didn't pay you bereavement and they so and yeah and but they never even paid you that much hourly to start off. No they didn't know your work. For as long as I've been there no and now where you're at they know your work they keep giving you pay raises they tell you all the time how lucky they are to have you and yeah it was a complete 180. Yeah as hard as this job as you have right now at least you are blessed with people that see your potential and they even want to move you up at some point. So I mean that's that's a huge thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Yeah and yeah I I was not happy with your last job just because and I'm like almost like well what's a big deal I love the people I work with I've worked with them for years like I'm comfortable I'm comfortable with my hours I don't have to get up till 7 30 and I don't you know I could be up at 7 30 and be worked by eight like that's that's the that's what I was thinking.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Yeah that I missed.

Isaac’s Birth And Inheritance Tensions

SPEAKER_02 56:19

You know yeah I do too trust me but that's where my mind was like oh it's you know it's a big deal it's a job it's I've been there a long time it's I'm probably I could probably be there for the rest of my life you know like I said yeah it's great I can wake up at 7 30 be there by eight but not even so much the pay they the owner of that place didn't even tell you you did a great job. Yeah it was he would just push you then well hey if you did this well I want you to do this well but we're not gonna say hey Nick you did a great job hey Nick we're gonna give you a pay raise because you because you should he overheard one of my supervisors one heard the foreman one time supervisor told him like you know Nick's been doing concentrating on this customer in this job and he's just he's doing a really good job keeping it all organized and owner looked right at him and said don't you ever tell him that again yeah like that you know he was like do you no you don't you don't tell your people they're doing a great job and the what the head of where you work right now just said what to you yeah the top guy where you work said what to you what did Dave just say to you oh yeah he's just well because I hear thank you so much now it's almost like I don't even I take it for granted I'll just but I was like oh thanks and he goes Nick no really he goes stop for a second he's like I really want you to know how much I appreciate everything you're doing so it it would just went beyond the simple hey thanks and really appreciate it I mean he was like stop like don't just he was like don't just say thank you oh yeah thanks like he he really wanted me to know and this is the president this is the top guy of the oh I'm like well you know my pleasure you know I'm like yeah that's who you are yeah so yeah that that's that's a big deal but that wouldn't have happened without no a little motherly guidance yeah yeah yeah but if you'd have listened to me you'd have quit that job right then and there so at least you have a little bit more sense than I do. Yeah like I said well what did I what did I say at the beginning like you you'll fire it right off like and I'm always like whoa wait a minute yeah yeah let you know let's the kettle don't need to boil over let's just and sometimes that makes you know let's simmer let's simmer a little bit and then we'll figure it out because most times it's like I know you're right but it's like we gotta figure it out we gotta think about timing here God's timing we gotta think about timing because you know done plenty of things in our lives and we're like didn't do God's timing so yeah just like yeah just gotta stop and think a little bit but uh you're usually right though I mean thank you so you just are so thank you but uh but yeah so I think that about wraps it up for this episode you know Abraham and Sarah Sarah will end up passing away I think Abraham will get married again and so there's so the family dynamic will continue to be complex as you read through the Bible as you read through Genesis and maybe we'll come back to it at some point but but God's will is good I mean Abraham followed through on his faith and they were they were absolutely Abraham will go on to have children with an his other wife I forget how many he has but he has quite a few so God will continue to bless that family and it will continue to grow so it's really I don't want to sound dumb and I know I'm going to so you only had the one son with Sarah that was it that's all that she had was the one she was Isaac is their miracle baby and then she will pass and then Abraham will marry again and I maybe they had like seven or eight children and quite a few of course so they will you know carry on through the story. So yeah. So definitely a lot more to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

But Isaac did then get everything because he was the well is that how that ended I know I'm I'm not it gets complex.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

I'm not good with the oh yeah so I just don't know it gets a little complex. You know Isaac's gonna have his his difficulties too which he's human so we all use him. That whole you know that whole family is well I I believe like the family's gonna be split and yeah there's a lot to dig into but it's it'd it would take another Episode to cover all that, so yeah. So there's some good, some bad. Probably just like in every other family. All right, well, I will go ahead and praise out of the way.

unknown 1:01:24

There it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Lord, thank you uh for this special moment. Um it's always it's always great to come on this podcast and talk with fan friends and family and um share all the glory uh that your faith brings to our lives. Uh but to have my wife on is a truly extraordinary thing. It's definitely something that if you had asked me a long, long time ago, I never would have imagined was was even possible. Um so I just thank you and praise you for that. Um I just pray that every family um can get to the heart of why you love them so much and why you you want them so badly to uh to have faith in you and and to let them guide you and to be the center of their lives. Um I pray that uh everyone out there who's listening to this podcast uh will take more time to um share God with their families, um, sort through the complexities of life and come to the true understanding that it is um our faith in you that guides us in everything. Um I pray all these things in your precious name. Amen.