Life Through a Queer Lens
Welcome to the Life Through a Queer Lens Podcast, where anyone with an open mind and heart can learn about the LGBTQIA+ Community from the people within it! We're your hosts, Jenene (she/her, they/them) and Kit (they/them).
Life Through a Queer Lens
EP47: Intersectionality, From Theory to Practice
Can you imagine how your life would change if you truly understood the complex layers of discrimination that intertwine in our society? Join us as we unpack the concept of intersectionality, starting with a historic Vice Presidential pick that has everyone talking. We trace the journey of intersectionality from its academic origins, thanks to Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw, to its powerful impact on mainstream conversations about systemic inequalities. By peeling back the layers of how different forms of discrimination overlap, we aim to dispel common misconceptions and foster informed, meaningful dialogue.
In our exploration of the deep-seated roots of prejudice, we uncover how interconnected systems like capitalism, sexism, and racism have shaped the world we live in today. Reflecting on historical injustices, such as the unfulfilled promises to freed slaves and the obliteration of Black communities like Tulsa's Black Wall Street, we stress the importance of comprehensive education and creative pedagogical approaches. Our discussion highlights the need for systemic reparations and the crucial steps of recognition and reconciliation to pave the way toward healing and justice.
The conversation takes a practical turn as we discuss the everyday applications of intersectionality, emphasizing the importance of accessibility in social justice work. From personal anecdotes that shed light on ableism, even within activist circles, to the nuanced implications of mental health language, we cover a wide spectrum of issues. We also touch upon the evolving language of identity politics, reflecting on its roots and contemporary relevance. By the end of our episode, you'll gain a deeper appreciation for the complexity of intersecting identities and the power of using your privilege to amplify marginalized voices.
Check out our linktree
If anyone is seeking a safe place for chiropractic care on Long Island, you're welcome at Sound Chiropractic in Oakdale, NY.
For Chiropractic care or information,
check out our link tree here
directly to website here
I think we're allowed to be happy, because I don't know about you, but that VP pick is solid. Pamela picked her VP today For the next 24 hours. Guys, we're allowed to be happy. Jill Stein is also a decent option, but at the end of the day, I just don't know if third parties are truly organized enough to really do it this time around around. I just don't know personally any. Everyone can have their own opinion about this, just like everyone does. That's. That's just the way it goes. My godmother always used to say opinions are like assholes everyone's got them and some are a lot stinkier than others. So y'all ready to jump into it?
Speaker 2:yeah, let's jump in.
Speaker 1:I just had to talk about that vp pic because it makes me so happy. I mean, that's, that's valid. Y'all ready to jump into it? Yeah, let's jump in. I just had to talk about that VP pick because it makes me so happy.
Speaker 2:I mean that's valid.
Speaker 1:Y'all are losing a really good one for this, but it's being replaced by a Native American woman, who will be the first Native American woman in that role in the country, I believe.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:Yes, an extra fun fact for y'all. That has nothing to do with the topic today, but I just think is interesting and I was like, huh, that's fascinating. Mind you, that's also very cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you starting with. That actually is related to intersectionality, so it's very appropriate for today's topic.
Speaker 1:Yes, 100%, Because today we are talking about intersectionality, which in the past half decade or so has really flung into the mainstream but has been around since 1989. So we're going to be going through its founding who coined the term first? And through what historical and sociological theories and thought processes intersectionality came from. I think it might be good to start with just the fact that there's so much contention, misinformation, nonsense around what intersectionality is as a concept, Like just throughout the entire political consciousness, consciousness on every side of the aisle, and I think the main reason for that is because a lot of people haven't read the original papers that this word came from. The original meaning becomes lost when you don't have that original context for it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I feel like that contentious nature also contributes to political polarization, because people are often talking past each other. It's leading to this really unproductive dialogue and, like you said, nobody's really digging into the roots of. Where did this even stem from and how can we better understand it so that we can have more productive conversation?
Speaker 1:Exactly, until half a decade ago, this term was only really used in academic. Where did this even stem from and how can we better understand it so that we can have more productive conversation? Yeah, exactly Until half a decade ago, this term was only really used in academic spaces and was coined first by Professor Kimberly Crenshaw in 1989. And it was added to the dictionary in 2015, which I knew it was in the dictionary, but I didn't realize it took so long to add to the dictionary. I figured it had been in the dictionary for a while, but that was after I got out of high school. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's interesting.
Speaker 1:It's because the term originates within POC academic spaces and Webster's dictionary is a very Anglo-Saxon white academic space that has a long history of racism. The definitions of black and white, rather than just being described neutrally as colors, white is defined with pure and innocence, whereas black, as a definition in the dictionary, is described as impure or dirty or literally. The dictionary has racist roots, just like every system, which again falls back into intersectionality. That was how that conversation first started around. Institutions being built on racist ideologies was with the coining of intersectionality and critical race theory, which we will dive into.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and Kimberly Crenshaw was a critical race theorist, so in case anybody was curious about that, I would say, even still is.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think to. The term probably went viral because it actually addresses the complex social issues that no one wants to discuss or open Pandora's box. But now we have the advent of the internet and social media and conversations are happening, whether people like it or not. Absolutely. I feel like there's been this ever growing awareness of the systemic inequalities and that has led to and I guess, and created a more receptive environment for intersectionality to take root. I think more people are seeking out frameworks because, like when I was reading about intersectionality, a lot of the language was about frameworks. It was about a prism, a framework that could better help people, better explain, but also better help people understand, while addressing the complexities of these overlapping sort of forms of discrimination and disadvantage among the many different marginalized groups. So, like, overlapping is the key word, right? That's what intersectionality is all about. It's that overlapping experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Even as stated in an article with this is separate from what you were saying, that Morphol's Longline, the actual definition of intersectionality. But Professor Crenshaw was being interviewed by Vox about intersectionality. In the article the interviewer is stating the current debate over intersectionality is really three debates one based on what academics like Crenshaw actually mean by the term, one based on how activists seeking to eliminate disparities between groups have interpreted the term and a third on how some conservatives are responding to its use by those activists.
Speaker 2:Three different, distinct but interconnected debates happening at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yes, and a lot of them are based on a lack of understanding of the other. There's a disconnect between each of them as well, because a lot of the activists haven't read the original paper that the theory comes from, and these some conservatives that are being spoken about don't really listen when people are trying to explain what intersectionality is, never mind being willing to read the original paper.
Speaker 2:Right, they're listening to respond their own biases.
Speaker 1:They're listening to tertiary sources.
Speaker 2:Right, they're not listening to actually understand.
Speaker 1:They're listening to biased tertiary sources and it would be very hard to believe that they would be willing to then go and read the unbiased primary source.
Speaker 2:Right, the fact that there's three ongoing debates happening at the same time right, they're overlapping. That speaks to the complexity of just understanding intersectionality in and of itself and how that's shaped by diversity. Right, different reactions from all three the academics, the activists and the conservatives. So it just becomes very complex and very dense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I get it Just, it just becomes very complex and very dense, absolutely, and again, just the whole thing is complex. Everything has nuance. And yes, there are absolutely black and white right and wrongs of situations involving intersectionality. Hate is always wrong, absolutely yeah, I'll say that I feel like it can go without saying, but I wanted to make sure that was clear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hate is. It's never the answer. It's never going to end well exactly so.
Speaker 1:I know I was just bashing miriam webster's dictionary because as we should, however, not to sound like a sixth grader reading a book report. According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, intersectionality is the complex, cumulative way in which effects of multiple forms of discrimination, such as racism, sexism and classism, combine, overlap or intersect, especially in the experiences of marginalized individuals or groups. In simple terms, intersectionality is saying that all forms of oppression are interconnected or linked and everyone experiences discrimination differently depending on their overlapping identities. All forms of discrimination, we always used to say when we were younger every person's life experiences are distinct and unique and it doesn't matter if you feel like someone's life should be just like yours. It plain and simply isn't. Same thing goes for experiences of discrimination against marginalized identities.
Speaker 2:I love this. I love the idea of intersectionality. I feel like it definitely highlights how different forms of oppression interact. They interact with each other, but they also reinforce each other within certain structures. It's just interesting how there are so many different experiences of discrimination, based on everybody's individual, unique lens discrimination based on everybody's individual, unique lens.
Speaker 1:A lot of the prejudices, the discrimination that we see occurring around us, it's these interconnected systems and in a lot of ways capitalism can be found very much at the core of it. The outer branching isms even misogyny too, I would say, because even like homophobia, a lot of homophobia can be traced back to just this deep seated hatred of femininity.
Speaker 1:How dare you act more feminine than I feel like you should? How dare you act more masculine than I feel like you should, when you should be being feminine? It's based around oppositional sexism, which is the belief that female and male are rigid, mutually exclusive categories, each possessing a unique and non-overlapping sets of attributes, aptitudes, abilities and desires. A lot of these things end up being the cores of hatred and prejudices, and phobias and isms that branch out of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why I like the idea of the reparations, because I feel like the reparations seek to heal a lot of the systemic issues at the root.
Speaker 1:And they're owed.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:They're long since owed. Yeah, we haven't made amends.
Speaker 2:We haven't made amends for all the wrongdoing. First of all, like with slavery, with the Black population and also with Native Americans, that's a large part of the roots and everything stems from there.
Speaker 1:Every aspect of our society. Again, where a lot of intersectionality bred from was with the origins of critical race theory and recognizing that most of the institutions in America were founded with racism at its root, at its core, at its very being.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that reconciliation part needs to happen. We need to understand history through a very clear lens and because that lens has been so convoluted and they're not teaching history as it actually happened, it's what they want us to think happened. Until we get to that point, we can't really affect a trueness and move forward something that has just not really been taught in the way that it should.
Speaker 1:Obviously Every. I believe, even at this point it was only men because there was the inherent sexism. So I think it was black men freed from slavery. I don't even think women were included in that, but I am not 100% sure. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not actively like Googling this information, but freed slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule. That never happened and that sounds, I don't want to say, trivial, but I feel like there are some colored people who would say that sounds almost trivial. But if that was given to ancestors as it was promised, if it was allowed to be kept, if these towns like Black Wall Street in Tulsa and the town that's underneath Lake Lanier, if these towns were allowed to be, if these Black communities were allowed to be that's generational wealth were allowed, to be that's generational wealth, that's the footstone that allows for families to flourish, and we deprived an entire group of people of that after spending hundreds of years enslaving them with chattel slavery.
Speaker 1:I think CH like literally horrific conditions that we in the modern age could not physically and humanly imagine. Specifically as white Americans, we could not imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was only actually a few that received the acreage promised, and of the ones that received it, if I remember correctly, the majority of them had it taken away at some point at the end of the Civil War. I remember Martin Luther King Jr. He said in his speech like slaves were freed, but what were they freed to? As you're saying, all their things were stripped from them. And, yeah, you don't have to be a slave anymore. But what are you going to? The prejudices are still there.
Speaker 1:Again, guys, there is an entire black town underneath Lake Lanier Graves, bodies in them, places that were just they were forced to leave or shot on site and then put under the water. So, first off, don't go swimming in that lake unless you genuinely have a death wish, for the love of god exactly that lake is so haunted, people just get dragged under all the fucking time, obviously.
Speaker 1:Secondly, it's just a perfect example of is that they're building a water roller coaster on lake lanier while the same year making a horror movie about the fact that lake lanier is over a town. And, mind you, this horror movie is. I'm excited for it. It's very respectful, it's going to be done very well. I'm really amped for it. But yeah, they're literally building a water thing Like the irony is staring us in the face of. I think it's 90 billion to Jewish organizations since World War II ended.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't erase what happened. It doesn't erase the Holocaust, it doesn't erase the history, but at least it moves toward reconciliation and healing everything for those people and in those people's lineage, so that you can move forward hold either above the other diminishes all Every genocide equally.
Speaker 1:We should be taught them all equally. The fact that we are not taught genocide in school is just an overarching thing, but we are only taught about one specific genocide is actually crazy. The way I learned about things like violence and genocide in specifically creative writing I think was the best way I learned about things like violence and genocide in specifically creative writing, I think was the best way I ever learned about those topics, because we learned them as broad, overarching themes, what they are, the damage they cause, some examples of them. Mind you, she wasn't a history teacher, she was a creative writing teacher and she did this. She was a creative writing teacher and she did this. And then we wrote poetry from the point of view of different. We explored these things through a creative lens. From there that's powerful.
Speaker 1:But we learned about genocide as a whole theme, as an entire system, as something that can happen anywhere, has happened numerous times, is not just singular to what occurred in Germany, and that's important, that matters. What happened to the Native Americans is a genocide. What happened in the transatlantic slave trade was a genocide.
Speaker 2:The civil war in Guatemala. The death numbers were equal to or higher than the death toll with the Holocaust, but no one's ever heard of the Civil War in Guatemala.
Speaker 1:Cambodia and Laos.
Speaker 2:Those were genocides.
Speaker 1:They were still finding landmines in the ground, maybe even to this day, at least as of the last when I visited the UN in 2011,. That was like the thing that year was the fact that we were still finding landmines from the US in Cambodia and Laos and they were still blowing up kids.
Speaker 2:That's mind blowing. It's okay, though, because.
Speaker 1:Henry Kissinger is finally rotting in hell and Anthony Bourdain got a good right hook in. I know it.
Speaker 2:If there is a God.
Speaker 1:Bourdain got to get a right hook in. I know that.
Speaker 2:I love that, though, that your teacher made you go through those exercises. I feel like they're so essential to the human experience just the human experience because you can internalize what happened and you can develop empathy for people who live through it.
Speaker 1:It's amazing and you start when you learn about it, as when you learn about things like genocide, things like violence, when you learn about these terrible things through a broader lens. It allows you to catch it early.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It allows you to see the similarities, the mirroring, the rhyming of history, if you will, if you only focus on one minute, it's like the whole idea of the painting that's made up of dots. If you stand this close to that painting, you're only going to see one dot and then you're just going to be like. This is a trash painting. You have to step back and take in the whole painting in order to really see what all of those dots do to really see what all of those dots do.
Speaker 2:What you're saying right now reminds me of a quote that I read, actually just today, by Michael Mead. He talks about how the ancient Irish has a saying and it goes you don't give a man a weapon. And I'm using the word man because it's in the quote, but I know technically we would use something more like inclusive.
Speaker 1:I would just keep the quote as is, especially if it's an older quote. Like I wouldn't change Shakespeare, I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it goes. You don't give a man a weapon until you've taught him how to dance. In other words, a different kind of learning is required before someone can truly be trusted with social power in potent things like weapons. If a man does not know the wounds of his own soul, he can deny not just his own pain but also be unmoved by other people's suffering. More than that, he will tend to put his wounds onto others. He may only be able to see the wound that secretly troubles him when he forcefully projects it onto someone else in the form of abuse or violence. So in the old culture-making idea to properly bear arms, a person must first become disarmed, as in becoming vulnerable and connected to something meaningful and supportive of life, the idea of forging the temperament of young men took precedence over the idea of simply giving them weapons. At a certain age, the tempering of the souls involved discovering what kind of anger each might carry and learning about the inner line where anger turned into blind rage.
Speaker 1:Becoming tempered also meant immersing in the sorrow of one's life and thereby being in touch with the world's grief. Oh, that's beautiful. I genuinely love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, based because of what you were saying, I'm like we need to be in touch with the world's grief in order to we have to look in inward. And in chiropractic we have a saying. It says above, down, inside out, a-d-i-o. It means whatever you can deal with internally, whatever you can internalize, whatever you can deal with at a soul level, everything within fans out. So if you're a mess inside, if you're feeling hatred inside, if you're feeling violent inside, you're going to project that outward and that's going to be part of your human experience. But I think that exercise that your teacher made you do at such a young age is so crucial to the development and contributions of humanity raising young children to be empathetic, to understand the world's grief as much as they can, but as early as they can.
Speaker 1:Mind you, I believe I was either a freshman or a senior in high school, because those are the two years I took her class. I took one freshman year and then the other senior year. It was very impactful, genuinely it was a really really, really great lesson and it was taught at just the right time. It was really genuinely well done. I love her.
Speaker 2:That's a great age. Yeah, it's a great age. You're still influential enough, but you're finding your footing as becoming an adult.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Scout.
Speaker 1:She was the best, she was literally the best. I'm just going to go through a little bit of a brief kind of like how intersectionality started to emerge a little more concretely, because I know we've hinted throughout this at intersectionality being very connected to critical race theory. But here you go. This is how. So critical race theory emerges around the 80s and 90s among groups of legal scholars like crenshaw, in the face of a false consensus. And the false consensus was, rather than systems and institutions being structurally racist, they were merely distorted by racism and that racism could be removed, which would revert the underlying legal and socioeconomic order to a natural, benign state of impersonally appointed justice. It's a false consensus. It's not true. It's this whole idea that racism is just a fluke and it can be worked out of these systems. We all know that's not true. Racism was inherently built into these systems and that is not something that can just be reformed, removed. That has to be broken down to its core and figured out and really reworked. That's something that has to be demolished and rebuilt if that makes sense, because there is a sickness at its core. So this is just plain and simply not the case. And many of the legal and social systems and institutions in America are intrinsically racist. It's not just a fluke, it's by design.
Speaker 1:Before the arguments raised by the organizers of critical race theory, there wasn't much to describe how the law of the land and its systems at their core can be racist rather than merely tainted by racism. There were really few tools available to discuss and understand how racism worked in these institutions Like at this point. It was the 80s, 90s all of the words we now have. This is when those words were just being created because they didn't have them. So they were coming up with coining terms I don't want to say coming up with, as if it was just like shitting out a word. No, they were coining terms after hours of intellectual discussion and thought and shit. Y'all get it.
Speaker 2:Y'all know if you know dark academia shit yeah the traditional narrative is that racism is a surface issue yeah, exactly, but it's built into all of these institutions. Yeah, it's deeply embedded in the very structures and institutions of society. Yeah, yeah, so they're inherently biased. They can't just simply revert back to the neutrality just because you remove there was never a neutrality that neutrality never existed.
Speaker 2:The mainstream narratives are conveying that this idea of racism is a surface issue. If it's a surface issue, then okay. Why don't we just remove these instances of racism and then everything will be fine? And it's no. You can't just remove instances of racism, because the reason why those instances keep happening is because it's so deeply embedded in the very structures and institutions of our society. It's intertwined.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, yeah, exactly. Everything's interconnected. Yeah, all of our struggle is interconnected, because all of our oppression is interconnected.
Speaker 1:Yes, Let me backtrack a little bit. It's in this exact climate that intersectionality emerged, and it was first laid out publicly by Crenshaw in a paper published at the University of Chicago's Legal Forum titled Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex, which can be found online and read in its entirety. I recommend everyone doing that. When this episode drops on the same day, I will go to our Instagram, which will be in the description below, and I will post the link to this paper in our stories. So if anyone is interested in reading this paper and finding it super easily, just go down there, click on our Instagram. After you finish listening to this episode, go to our Instagram, go to our story and it'll be right there, Okay.
Speaker 2:I wanted to share a concept. Somebody said that intersectionality provided a counterpoint to simplistic narratives. I read that I was like, oh, that's really cool. I love this idea of counterpoint because it's a musical term and I'm a musician, so that kind of spoke to me. But musical counterpoint is this way of composing where you have two or more musical lines. They're simultaneously played, they're harmonically correlated, but yet there are two different, independent lines in rhythm and melody.
Speaker 2:So the way I'm looking at it is like this idea of intersectionality provides us with a counterpoint. It provides a depth, a lens or some kind of insight into someone's very layered experience. And not everyone's experience is the same. In fact, no one experience is truly alike. It reminds me of when I was a kid. My dad told me when I was younger he was like there's no one else on this earth that is exactly like you. Like when you walk around and you grew up, you're going to look at other people and there's not one other person that looks exactly the same as you.
Speaker 2:Now, granted, I'm talking about physical appearances and how we present, but the concept is similar where not everybody's experience is truly the same. You have these different vagaries or these nuances that make them different. But I love how this idea of intersectionality as the counterpoint to old narratives is it just it's. I feel like it adds the depth, because the old narratives are very oversimplified, they're very oversimplified. So, yeah, I just, I love that. I just wanted to share Counterpoint. It's the point of intersection, because that's the point that gives you the depth, the lens, the insight. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:I genuinely love that. So this is a direct quote from Kimberly Crenshaw. The coiner. Intersectionality was a prism to bring to light dynamics within discrimination law that weren't being appreciated by the courts. In particular, courts seem to think that race discrimination was what happened to all black people across gender and sex discrimination was what happened to all women and sex discrimination was what happened to all women. And if that is your framework, of course, what happens to Black women and other women of color is going to be difficult to see.
Speaker 2:What happens to Black women and other women of color is going to be difficult to see. People view gender discrimination as affecting all women uniformly, regardless of their race, Like they don't take that part into consideration that different races experience gender discrimination differently.
Speaker 1:Exactly. That's. One of the reasons why the term misogynoir has also been coined in even more recent years is because, through the lens of intersectionality, we are understanding that women of color experience a very specific form of discrimination that white women could never understand. Not that I am women, I am non-binary. White women could never understand, white people could never understand. Even Black men couldn't understand because they are men. There's a level of misogyny on top of this.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's where that intersectionality becomes extremely important, and intersectionality also falls along the lines of disability justice. Even another one of my favorite creators, Crutches and Spice oh, my God I can't speak today Imani she has said that if there's ever a form of discrimination or justice work that you feel like you do not know enough about, it is probably disability justice, and even.
Speaker 1:I, as a disabled person, can say I also do not know enough about disability, justice and I am learning all the time of intersectionality is disability, is queer identities, is gender identities, is um, cis, sexism, women and afab and a man the patriarchy. You know that whole misogyny.
Speaker 2:That's the word I was looking for, oh my god holy, you're fine, you're going through every term I can pull out of my ass.
Speaker 1:What is it? What is it misogyny? Yeah, all of these intersect in some way. For many different people and they all are they fall under that intersectional umbrella. If that makes sense, just to broaden that lens a little bit for everyone. It is more identity terms than I think some people realize. If that makes sense, it's more broad.
Speaker 2:I was in a group the other day. It was a group coaching session and we were looking at ads on different social sites and it was a workshop and the guy running the workshop was like we're just going to look at these ads and I'm going to give you my feedback and I want your input as well. It was amazing how many ads were not captioned in their videos and I spoke up because I'm like not one person has said anything about captions for the disability community and I follow somebody on LinkedIn who is disabled and she gives a lot of not advice, but she educates about things that you Accessibility education.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's not talked about yeah, absolutely so, anyway.
Speaker 2:so I spoke up and I was like the fact that three out of the five ads that we looked at didn't have captions. I said I myself might not be in the disabled community have captions. I said I myself might not be in the disabled community but because I know that would help another marginalized community, I would caption those videos. I was just blown away because we looked at so many ads and it was amazing how few of them were actually captioned.
Speaker 1:Fair. And here's the thing is. I wouldn't necessarily say that the discussions around gender and race overshadow disability. I just because they're all extremely important, they all need to be discussed. I just I don't know. I think it's the fact that if you're wondering which form of justice work you should learn more about, it is disability justice, and I think that's the core of it, rather than anyone overshadowing anyone else's.
Speaker 1:I wish more activists would concern themselves with learning, disability justice, because I think a perfect example is. I was interacting with someone who describes themselves as a very intersectionally aware, very Black Lives Matter. They are, I would say, a leftist. They would describe themselves as someone who keeps intersectionality in mind and they said some of the most ableist shit to me about my autism. They said that me and a four-year-old with autism who was nonverbal were basically the same, so I should just know what to get her for her birthday without knowing anything about her.
Speaker 2:I remember you sharing that once.
Speaker 1:We were basically the same, and this is coming from someone who is very active in queer spaces, is very active in Black activist spaces, is very active in these intersectional spaces and yet is guilty of ableism and needs to unlearn their ableism.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people don't even know what they're doing is contributing to that. One of the things I recently learned not too recently, recently enough was when you're giving a presentation, always use the microphone, because people that have hearing difficulties can't hear you when you're not using the microphone, even if they're wearing hearing aids. It has something to do with the frequencies. So it was interesting because, like last week, I was at a presentation and a bunch of people got up and taking turns presenting and it felt like almost every other person was like nah, I don't need a mic, I can talk loud. It's not about if you can talk loud or not. It's about the people that have hearing challenges aren't going to be able to hear you, whether or not you're loud, because you're not using the microphone, you're not tapping into whatever frequency their hearing aids need to pick up that sound.
Speaker 1:Especially in such a loud, a broad space with water in it. Yeah, mind you, I don't exactly understand how it works. I personally am not hearing impaired in any way, but that definitely makes sense. I think about, like when I would be in like the auditorium and there would be a teacher who would be like no, I don't need a mic, I'm fine. And it would be like bro, I could barely hear you over your own voice's echo.
Speaker 2:What is?
Speaker 1:it. You're muffling yourself, I don't know what you're saying and, mind you, I have auditory processing disorder, so my autism causes auditory processing issues. So I can hear, but I can't process audio very well. That's why I need subtitles on TV shows and videos that I'm watching is because of the fact that I struggle to process as I'm hearing it. Reading it and hearing it is what really helps it sink in.
Speaker 2:Drive it home, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's just. That's one of the reasons why people will be talking to me and I'll say what, and then, halfway through them repeating themselves, my brain will catch up and process what they say.
Speaker 2:You're like, I got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll answer them halfway through them speaking and it'll just be like, okay, I'm sure anyone out there who has only just now learned about intersectionality in more of an in-depth way and plans on reading that paper, I'm sure you would like to know more about how to embrace intersectionality in your day-to-day life. Directions come from womankindorg, which is a UK-based women's rights organization that is known for a pretty good intersectionality-based way of functioning, and the first step is checking your privilege, which is pretty obvious, and this goes beyond class, race, sets, creed. This goes into every aspect of your identity. Where in those identities do you experience natural privilege? A perfect example I am extremely white. I am the color of mayonnaise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like Casper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I experience white privilege. Are you middle class? Did you go to college? Are you able-bodied? Are you cisgender? All of these different identities play a role in the privilege that you carry throughout your day-to-day life and the end of that spectrum that could occur for the person right next to you. That's important to recognize in first steps of intersectionality work is where is it that you experience privilege and in that, where can you use that privilege to assist others? Where can you use that privilege to metaphorically, hold the megaphone, if that makes sense, to amplify black voices, to amplify disabled voices, to to amplify queer voices, to amplify? Where can you use that privilege best?
Speaker 2:And also, how can you use your voice to call people out or to educate them?
Speaker 1:Even just making sure queer people feel safe. Yeah, like that whole idea of where can you use your voice to speak out, where you notice things going wrong and your you know it shouldn't be the job of the victim to keep themselves like. Where can you use your privilege to help listen and learn? Yeah, at the very core, it's all about learning more read, but don't just read.
Speaker 1:I I think anyone who's on TikTok right now, and specifically in leftist spaces on TikTok we all know about a certain Dorito man who is an old, who's gotten himself in some deep new and keeps just fucking recommending books to people for some reason. Listen to them, learn from others life experiences, understand how your life experiences differ from theirs because of the privilege you hold, that they don't. Dissect that it might feel a little weird, but dissect that, dissect why that feels weird, dissect why that makes you feel a certain way. Because it's important. It's important to understand ourselves and understand where we fall on the map of this great circle of life and how we can assist others in that. And listening and learning is a great way to do that. Meaningful collaborations with diverse groups of people. Make sure you're really honoring what you're listening to. Don't just listen to hear, listen to learn, listen to understand, listen to grow, listen with the intention of one day using what you have learned not just in one ear, out the other.
Speaker 2:And definitely look into other cross sections of the intersectionality. So if you're in one marginalized group and you don't know much about the other ones, learn about them. I feel like we have a responsibility as humans to better understand humanity and the differences among all of us, as a way of like raising up that consciousness level, like it's our responsibility.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, and don't just rely on conversations in real life, because that also requires emotional labor and mental labor from the person you're talking to Also be willing to do again your own research. Don't just read, but also read, also watch documentaries, also listen to audiobooks and TED Talks and different perspectives. Also talk to real people, but don't just rely on the emotional and mental labor of others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't just rely on one source.
Speaker 1:Shake it up, absolutely Shake it up, yeah 100% Diversify. Yes, diversify your sources. Remember that primary sources are primary. They are the fact of a situation. Secondary sources are secondary. They are commenting on the fact of a situation and adding further context to it. Tertiary sources are third. They are the least accurate and are, more than anything, the commentary.
Speaker 2:They're biased.
Speaker 1:Always look for primary sources. Primary sources are going to be your key. Yeah, tertiary sources have the highest chance of being biased 100%. Not that they are always biased, but they have the highest shot of containing bias Because the source, the information is just. It's like playing a game of telephone. That's how my English teacher taught me primary, secondary and tertiary sources. It's like a game of telephone. By the time you get to the tertiary sources, there's some details that are going to be missing, that are really important, which is why it's got to go back to that primary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, telephones are throwback. I used to play telephone as a kid.
Speaker 1:I love that game.
Speaker 2:So fun.
Speaker 1:The third thing is to make space Again. The whole idea of holding the megaphone, amplifying others voices, using your voice to to stick up for others in situations where it is unsafe for the person to use their own voice, don't speak for them, don't speak over them that whole idea of holding the megaphone, yeah, that actually just made me think of one more population that is marginalized as well the aging population.
Speaker 2:And when you said don't speak for them, don't speak over them, it reminded me of a situation where my great aunt and my great uncle were in the hospital and she's right now going to be 99 next month but at the time they were in the hospital, they were in the 94 age range and the surgeon came in and didn't speak to her directly. In fact, he totally disregarded her altogether because he just assumed that she was deaf and dumb. And so what ended up happening is he was talking to their daughter about everything concerning her husband and she was pretty freaking mad about it, but no one stood up for her, because it was a stressful situation, but it just reminded me that's another population that often are the recipients of discrimination that's something that my grandmother was actually the other day.
Speaker 1:She was complaining about was the fact that she went to her doctors with my mom and the doctor was asking my mom, oh, does she take her medication? My mom was like I don't know, I don't live with her, she lives on her own. B ask her rude, just the ride rude. Yeah, hello, you can ask me yeah, oh yeah, she was. She's still, if I bring that up to her. Oh sure, he was such a oh yeah, I love it, yeah but that's valid man.
Speaker 2:That's like they've lived a long time, and I also. That generation is the silent generation and so their generation is especially women. They are not going to speak out or speak up for themselves a lot of times because that's the generation they come from. They're very respectful, they're very traditional. They're not used to using their voices in the way that we're like yeah self-care, let's express outwardly yeah, that's not, that wasn't their generation.
Speaker 1:Silent generations before boomers right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I thought so.
Speaker 2:I wasn't 100% sure. Silent generations before boomers, right? Yeah, yeah, okay, I thought so I wasn't 100% sure Immediately before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, a lot of AFAB people can identify with going to the doctor and not being listened to, not being believed, our pain not being acknowledged in the same way that a man's pain is, our pain not being acknowledged in the same way that a man's pain is. A perfect example of that is the fact that for a vasectomy they get fucking general anesthetic anything they need. Meanwhile, an iud is one of the most painful things that an afab person can experience. Even I think some people have said it's more painful than labor. But that is one of those personal kind of things.
Speaker 1:But, IUDs are horrifically painful and they're just like oh, take Tylenol, You're fine, it might pinch a little. That's the warning they're given AFAB people are given the warning of it might pinch a little. Wow, For kinds of pain that make people pass out vomit. Oh, it's not that bad. Every AFAB person who I've heard from who has had an IUD has said it is one of the most painful things they have ever experienced. It's against the cervix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And again it goes to show why intersectionality is so important because they exist in that intersection both your great aunt and my grandmother of elderly and AFAB, and that intersection is the place where doctors and certain professionals will look down upon through the lens of ageism and misogyny. Because of those inter, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, it's fascinating actually.
Speaker 1:And, mind you, my grandmother is definitely one of those people who is just like oh, the leopards won't eat my face, even though they will.
Speaker 2:But they don't discriminate, they hungry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, that's the intersections. Last but certainly not least, your language. A lot of the words that we use on a pretty consistent or daily basis hurt without even really meaning to or realizing it, like even this article. I didn't even actually think of this, and this is again as someone who is disabled. So many of the words that we use today are ableist, exclusionary and downright offensive to marginalized community. When was the last time you said, ah, the R slur? They were diagnoses. These were words that were used medically in really harmful ways, to medically abuse, to completely through things like the ugly laws, to completely shun disabled people from daily life. Like that a lot of the language we use today comes from that is, is that at its root, and that's as someone who loves the english language, as a writer. That's one of the reasons why I love the history and sources of words is because, when you get down to it, there are some words that are that seems so benign actually not at all and really do have a bad connotation.
Speaker 2:Right. I have a few examples so for gender and sexuality. I have a few examples so for gender and sexuality. Ladies and gentlemen, instead use everyone or folks. Avoid he, she or his, her. Instead you can use they, them or their. Avoid using things like manpower. Use workforce or staff. Chairperson or chair for chairman that old slur that's so gay used to be a pejorative phrase. Instead you can use that's unfair or that's unfortunate For race and ethnicity. What'd you say?
Speaker 1:Sorry, I was just like the early 2000s yeah that's so gay.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, sorry, I was just taking a back. Yeah For race and ethnicity. Instead of saying, cause I hear this all the time People are like oh, you speak good English. Instead of saying that you can say where'd you grow up? This is very ableist. I don't see color and I think people I would say that's more racist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, sorry, thank you. Yeah, very racist.
Speaker 1:I don't see color, and it's funny because it usually comes out of the mouth of a white person who says that is a good accepting it comes from good intention if that makes sense. But the reason why, at the end of the day, that is problematic is because saying I don't see color completely and totally invalidates and erases the real life lived experiences of people of color on a daily basis in this and every country.
Speaker 2:And it negates their responsibility of learning more about that.
Speaker 1:About the history, about the integration of racism into every institution in society. Yeah, it negates responsibility, whereas, no, we are all responsible for learning more about how our history has affected others and how it continues to to this day, and how we have yet to make true amends for that, and how we perpetuate harm on a consistent basis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Instead you can use I respect and value diversity. Very simple. For disability avoid using handicapped or disabled person. Instead, use person with a disability. Instead of saying crazy or insane it's what you were saying before about lame or the R word you can use unbelievable or incredible. Avoid using confined. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to lie. As someone with mental illness, I very frequently catch myself saying something like oh that's crazy or oh that's insane, as I get that that is something that I had now noticed in myself, and stuff like that. Listen, if these are things that you've noticed in yourself. You're not like a terrible person. That's not what we're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I making more aware.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I say, oh, that shit's crazy all the time that shit cray, that shit cray, I call myself crazy all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah Listen, my dad was diagnosed schizophrenic. I've read several books on schizophrenia, and crazy was a term that more or less labeled to a lot of schizophrenics.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, so I had to check myself for a minute. Fair schizophrenics so I had to check myself for a minute Fair, If you would like another really good book about that. Ron Howard wrote a book called Nobody Cares About Crazy People Fantastic.
Speaker 2:Really Okay. He has two sons who were both diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Speaker 1:One of them took his own life in 2013, I believe.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And his other son is successful and healthy and okay, but he discusses how basically the history of how schizophrenia was discovered and how we ended up where we are now with talking about and handling mental illness, the mental health crisis that we are now in as a country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I actually okay. I'm definitely going to read that. I'll probably ask you for the title again after we get off. Another one that I personally don't like is the word illness. When people say mental illness, because to me it implies and I think in the health circles there's a lot more conversation around this People are more leaning toward mental health, because that's the spectrum, instead of saying that they're ill, because just because somebody is diagnosed with a condition doesn't make them ill and it just has a really negative connotation.
Speaker 1:So it's just something that me personally, being a health provider, I would check in as someone who is I don't know patient, a diagnosed. I think one of the reasons why mental illness is something that is still said and still used is because they're debilitating. They're not fun, they're not, they are bad. Not saying like they are bad, it's not like the people who have them are bad. Obviously that's not what what I'm saying. But I don't like being mentally ill. I don't like the fact that my brain doesn't work. I'd give anything to be, I hate to say.
Speaker 1:I've learned to, to love and accept myself as who I am and my autism and my neurodiversities in general, my mental illnesses in, but they're really fucking hard. I don't want them. I wouldn't wish them on anyone. I wish I didn't have them. Mind you, they make me who I am. It's something where I can't imagine the person I would be without them. I love who I am now and don't necessarily want to go back Like I'm good where I'm at and stuff like that, but also like I see why they're still called mental illness and it's because, yeah, they are an illness, they're debilitating, it's like any other illness.
Speaker 2:Here's like where I arrived, and this is not like a total, it's just an example of like affirmation, like it's a lateral, like story, I guess just to help me like convey where I'm coming from. So all summer people kept asking us like, oh, how's the new business going, how's the new business going? Like, how's business you get new patients, how's it going? And what we kept saying to people was we don't take insurance, we're going all cash, so it's a slow build. And so we're saying out loud it's a slow build, it's a slow build. So how was our summer? It was fucking slow.
Speaker 2:And I finally said to Vanessa I'm like we need to change our language, because we were just affirming all summer for two months and we ate dirt for two months, because we were just affirming out loud oh, it's low. Whereas we could have said the same thing, just reworded. We could have said we're growing, we're growing. Because then that leaves it open when I think about the mental health spectrum. Yes, there are people that are very healthy, there are people at the debilitating part of the spectrum, but I think to say it's an illness. And then you're saying that, you're affirming that out loud, you're saying that you're affirming that out loud. You're just. You're basically affirming out loud I'm ill.
Speaker 1:That doesn't leave much room to grow into, like the other parts of the spectrum, and that is fair. I do see where you're coming from there. I just I don't know.
Speaker 2:I I mean we don't have to agree, it's just something to be aware of. You know what I mean. Like I can't use that with my patients because I'm not going to tell my patients they're ill.
Speaker 1:That's. You're valid for that. That's.
Speaker 2:I want them to be healthy.
Speaker 1:Fair, I definitely think in. I don't know. My brain is also turning into soup today.
Speaker 2:I know, I feel you, I think again.
Speaker 1:It's like when I say things like the chronics are chronicing, I think again when I say things like the chronics are chronicing, I'm talking about chronic illness and part of that is the brain stuff and I see how that can definitely be like a negative self-talk, a negative affirmation kind of thing. But I also can't help but just seeing it as calling it what it is, just being honest about it, because I spent so so long I have done CBT therapy so many damn times I was drowning in positive affirmations and they just didn't work.
Speaker 2:I was. There's also a spectrum with positive affirmations, right, there's people that just say things out loud, just to say them, and there's no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's absolutely, but I remember, like I did the whole yeah, that's CBT therapy and positive affirmations tend to not work on autism because of the fact that we are. We're logical.
Speaker 2:Right, and there's the intersect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we are able to a lot of these, the whole idea of these bad thought processes that need to be unworked. They're proven to us. I can look at real experiences from my life and prove that some of these harmful thought processes that I've had are based in reality. They're not just in my head, they are very real. And being told by a therapist that, oh no, you just need to say this and that, no, I have real life examples for why I'm not just delusional about this, this is a real thing that I have a reason to be X, y and Z.
Speaker 1:So I've noticed things like somatic therapy and other forms of therapy tend to work better for autism where it's less about trying to unlearn the thought process and it's more about actual emotional regulation and really getting the trauma out of the body yeah, and genuinely calming down, and I think that's what I need, because CBT therapy positive affirmations like not calling it what it is, I've noticed personally does not help me.
Speaker 1:I like it to just call it what it is it's a mental illness, it sucks. It's a neurodiversity, it sucks, but there's some pretty cool things about it too.
Speaker 2:But there's some pretty cool things about it too, like the fact that I see things from angles that a lot of holistic people don't.
Speaker 1:That's really cool. I really like that about myself. I like the fact that I'm able to tear apart a topic until it is just a withering piece of pulp. I love that shit, but it can also be so debilitating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear you and that's where I think and I've seen that that working together and you I've seen that in real time, which I totally appreciate yeah, of course, yeah, but see where you're coming from with with certain things.
Speaker 1:I definitely see how that would work, just changing that the wording a little bit. Even I always used to call myself stupid and that's something that santi and I have really been working on.
Speaker 2:You still do. Last time we recorded, you said I'm an idiot, like six times. Yeah, I'm like. You're not an idiot, we're all a work in progress. We're all a work in progress, it's a work in progress.
Speaker 1:But it's something I've been working on and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So I get that. Yeah, we're all. But just so that my perspective isn't in any way shape or form trying to like negate the realities of somebody's struggle or the level of which it is debilitating or anything like that, it's more of a frequency thing. It's like I get calling it what it is, but also like just being aware of what your frequency is and I think that sometimes changing our words revolves around what our reality is can help us vibrate a little bit differently. That's all I'm saying. So I'm not saying like there's a right way or a wrong way. It's just, it's an awareness piece. It's just to be aware of, like, how we're talking about ourselves or how we view ourselves, and if there's a higher vibrating or higher frequency languaging surrounding our experience, that could I don't know, it's not that it's not calling it what it is, but it's it. It could blanket, it, could comfort us in it, if that makes sense. I didn't know we're going to talk, be talking about this.
Speaker 1:I'm a little bit like I did the same thing where I was like I got to try to figure out how to actually word this and turn this brain salad into.
Speaker 2:Mine's brain salad today too, do you want? I have a couple more examples with age, which I'm glad the ageism stuff came in. So avoid using the term old people. Don't refer to people as old or the elderly. Use older adults or seniors. And actually my mom she works in the hospital and she said they're referring to seniors or older adults, now they're referring to them as the aging population because they're the aging population. So I thought that was really cute the aging population. I like that yeah.
Speaker 1:I like that a lot. That's very cute.
Speaker 2:Avoid using like young and inexperienced. It's like just not very nice landing. Instead you can say early in their career or an emerging professional, and then, for general inclusivity, avoid using the word normal. I actually had somebody come in my office last week who was talking about a neurotypical person as a normal compared to somebody else in their family that was neurodiverse, and she didn't know. I said to her I know there are people that use the word normal, but typically, instead of when we're talking about neurodiverse and neurotypical relationships or situations or whatever, we use the word neurotypical. And she was like oh, I had no idea. But yeah, you don't want to say the word normal. And she was like oh, I had no idea.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you don't want to say the word normal, just so you know the exact term for non-autistic is allistic. Yes, so there's autistic and allistic. So anyone who is non-autistic would be allistic, and you can from there have other neurodiversities, say ADHD, which is in and of itself a neurodiversity because it affects the neurology.
Speaker 1:Whereas mental illnesses, I think, are a little bit different than neurodiversities, because it's the difference between something affecting the actual neurological pattern of your brain versus the chemical functionings. I think that's considered. The difference between a neurodiversity and mental illness is the fact that neurodiversities actually affect the neurological pathways of the brain, ADHD, autism, all UHD, which is autism and ADHD combined. Those would actually be the neurological pathways being affected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, versus the chemical makeup.
Speaker 1:Right, our brains are literally built different yeah, it's not in like a great way. They're actually just like really thick and full of a lot of gray matter and have a bunch of neural pathways that should have been trimmed long ago but weren't it's not great.
Speaker 2:yeah, we don't use as much as we should or could. Yeah, but that's why a lot of sorry.
Speaker 1:That's why a lot of autistics will say I am autistic rather than I have autism, because of the fact that it affects the actual makeup and build of the brain. So it is much more of an am rather than have, say, bipolar disorder or other mental illnesses where they say I have not, I am. If that.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah, totally makes sense. So, instead of using normal, you can use those, or you can use non-disabled, or you can just use typical. And just some additional tips ask for pronouns when appropriate, avoid making assumptions about someone's gender or sexuality or their background based on their appearance or their name, and just be open to learning, like we talked about. Just be open to learning a new language, because language evolves and whatever is considered to be inclusive can change over time. So just be open to feedback and be willing to adjust accordingly. So Kit want to jump to that interesting fact so, kate, want to jump to that interesting fact?
Speaker 1:absolutely so. The first time the term identity politics was used was back in 1974 by the Combahee River Collective in a statement they released, broken down into four separate sections to address the needs of women, black lesbians especially, and they shared dedication to the complete liberation of black bodies. And this is quoted directly from the Combahee River Collective statement. This, focusing upon our own oppression, is embodied in the concept of identity politics. We believe that the most profound and potentially most radical politics come directly out of our own identity, as opposed to working to end somebody else's oppression.
Speaker 2:Damn.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's the. That's where the term identity politics came from, which is something else we could do a broader episode upon in the future. But I just thought that was really interesting that there's some connection between the history of intersectionality and the history of identity politics. But identity politics as a term was coined before intersectionality. It was back in 1974 versus 1989. That's really neat. Outro Music.