Life Through a Queer Lens
Welcome to the Life Through a Queer Lens Podcast, where anyone with an open mind and heart can learn about the LGBTQIA+ Community from the people within it! We're your hosts, Jenene (she/her, they/them) and Kit (they/them).
Life Through a Queer Lens
EP51: Achillean, Achilles and Patroclus, & Queer Legacy
Can the love story of two ancient Greek warriors reshape our understanding of modern queer identities? This episode of "Life Through a Queer Lens" dares to challenge the historical narrative by uncovering the profound connection between Achilles and Patroclus. Travel with us back to Greek mythology and dissect how this legendary bond, often misrepresented as mere friendship, evolved into the contemporary term "Achillean." We tackle the complexities of piecing together this uncharted history and stress the importance of inclusivity and respect within the queer community.
As we reclaim queer history, we shine a spotlight on pivotal figures like John Addington Symonds and Oscar Wilde, whose contributions transformed our understanding of male-aligned queer attraction. We explore the symbolic Achillean flags and discuss their cultural significance. Furthermore, we address the persistent erasure of queer narratives in mainstream history, even in today's seemingly progressive society. We close with an intriguing highlight: the joint burial of Achilles and Patroclus, symbolizing their unbreakable bond. This episode is essential listening for anyone eager to gain a richer, more inclusive grasp of queer history.
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They loved one another and during the Trojan War war, achilles lost the love of his life, leading to the trail of rage and pain that follows. For years, when discussing the story of achilles and patroclus, history called them close friends, confidants, comrades, brothers anything but lovers. Okay, folks, hey, what's up? Welcome back to life through a queer lens. I'm back again with another solo cast, so I just want to start out real quick before we really jump into like the research and like the good shit. There is not nearly as much information available about Achillean as there is Sapphic. There just isn't, to the point where the website that I referenced frequently in our last episode about Sapphic, the Entomology Dictionary yeah, they don't have an entry for Achillean, they just don't. I use that website for a lot of these episodes. I used that website for the episode about the history of the word queer. That was the first place that dropped the breadcrumb about the Oscar Wilde trial. That took me down that whole rabbit hole that got us to like the source of it. There was nothing on that, for Achillean Created quite the little issue during research. So we're basically going to do our best with historical context clues to connect the past historical references and reasonings behind the use of the term to the modern meaning and identity term. Basically, we're going to connect the original word to the modern word using historical context clues and things of that nature.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's going to be a little messy, but we're going to do our best and, mind you, I wouldn't say much of this is gospel truth. I am doing my best with the minimum breadcrumbs that have been dropped to build something. Be patient with me. I'm not going to say take it with a grain of salt, because I did use Encyclopedia Britannica. Y'all. Anyone who knows me can tell you. If there's one thing I hate, it's bad research. If there's one thing I hate, it's bad information. So I definitely found my sources accordingly, but it provided much more of a roadblock than I had originally anticipated. Keep that in mind as we step into this episode, that this one was a bit rougher and definitely is a bit more of a pieced together history rather than a definitive line, if that makes sense. And again, I'm going to try not to do this consistently throughout the episode, but Safik and Achillean do have enough in common where in doing the Sapphic episode just last week and contextual meaning Anyone can identify as, again, just like with sapphic. I don't want to reiterate these. I don't want to beat you over the head with these points. However, queer theory states anyone can identify as anything you good.
Speaker 1:Presently, achillean is an umbrella term for men, masc people who are gay, bisexual, pansexual, trans, non-binary, but have an attraction to men or masc people. Again, it is in a way, as many people describe it, the masculine version of sapphic. It is an umbrella term for the specific I don't want to go too deep. I'm trying to figure out how to word this so I don't give away what's to come but it is a identity term for the specific love and attraction experience between two mask aligned people. There we go. I figured it out. It took me a minute, but I figured it out. The term is meant to highlight the specific type of affection-attraction experience between two mask-aligned people. In simple terms, achillean is a broad identity term for masculine-aligned queer attraction that can overlap, combine with and be used instead of, gay, homosexual, bi, pan, any of those, ipan, any of those, even with Achillean being a more broad term, trans, non-binary folks, anyone who wants to identify as gay or homosexual rather than or in addition to being Achillean are entirely valid and fine. Again, you can identify however you want to identify. Respect yourself, respect each other, you're going to be fine. Just be a good person and you're going to be okay. But yeah again, no one within the community. We're not your enemy. As long as there are some people within the community who are like, violently transphobic, who are racist, who are, as long as they themselves are a good person and respectful of other people, your community is not your enemy. We respect each other, respect yourself, you're going to be fine.
Speaker 1:The first known usage of the word Achillean for anything dates back to 1576, and, according to Webster's Dictionary, in this context means adjective like Achilles as in strength, invincibility or moody and resentful wrath, and that, to this day, is the only definition of Achillean that Webster's has on the books. That's all they got, which it's Webster's Dictionary. I don't know what we expected. Before we go any further, it would be remiss to not take a moment to discuss achilles himself, because obviously the word achillean, the identity achillean, comes from achilles and it would if you do not know anything about achilles except like the Achilles heel or the fact that he was invincible. This makes no sense. So let's go a little bit into Achilles himself, his mythos, his stories, the legends surrounding him, and then from there we're going to connect that back to the identity term that is presently in use, and then we'll go into the flag and all of that. So yeah, stick around, it's going to be fun, I promise.
Speaker 1:In the briefest of terms possible, achilles is a man of Greek myth who was dipped into the River Styx as an infant, making all but his heel or Achilles' tendon invulnerable. Achilles' story is known for one thing his rage, palpable and fueled by grief. He fought during the Trojan War and during this his closest confidant, patroclus, was killed by the Trojan prince, hector, while riding into battle disguised as Achilles. Because of Achilles' pride and obstinance, the entire reason Patroclus is killed is because Achilles refuses to continue fighting in the Trojan War, and the reason he refuses to continue fighting is because his honor had been slain, if you will. His honor had been taken down a good couple of pegs, because his slave was taken from him by Hector. So his honor had been considered really diminished and because of this he was like fuck this, I'm out, I'm leaving. And Patroclus, being the ever-present force, the ever-helpful confidant, decides to step into battle in Achilles' place and is killed by Hector.
Speaker 1:So yeah, the kind of vengeance that achilles gets on hector for this, by the way is it's real horrid. I'm not gonna go too deep into the gore and stuff like that because this ain't that kind of podcast, but it gets. He he does, he drags him behind his chariot. That's all I really need to say for you to get the mental picture he dread running a drag behind behind. You ever seen Ben-Hur? I think that's something that happened in Ben-Hur. I believe that's how someone dies in Ben-Hur is their drag behind their chariot. I think that's how Ben-Hur's brother died. I haven't heard that story in years, guys, I was raised Catholic, though I do know that story. But brutal, brutal way to go. And years later Achilles is killed with the arrow by Paris, who was Hector's brother.
Speaker 1:Much of Achilles' fate, his future fate, his present anger it revolves around what happened to Patroclus. So for years, when discussing the story of Achilles and Patroclus, history called them close friends, confidants, comrades, brothers anything but lovers, because history hates lovers. But, as historian Edith Hall stated, the Iliad offered ancient Greek men a model of idealized, extremely simplistic version of their events, of Achilles and Patroclus' love for one another. There's a fiction book that I'm sure we're all aware of the Song of Achilles. That is a fictionalized quote, unquote. I've heard it's phenomenal. I personally haven't had the chance to read it yet. I also haven't had the mental stability to read it yet because I heard people were destroyed by that book. I don't know about that film, but yeah, I heavily recommend that book for anyone interested and also if you would like to learn more, just in general, about more of the history and how their love got polluted over time by historians and compulsory heterosexuality, I heavily recommend reading the paper he, whom I Loved as Dearly as my Own Life, an analysis of the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus by Haley Rhodes, wittenberg. Sorry, something about that title just teared me up Because, yeah, that was the whole thing. I believe that's something that Achilles says about Patroclus, he who I loved as dearly as my own life. Come on y'all. They were best friends Bullshit. I will eat my shoe if they were friends and it's a crock. I've seen the food theory episode about whether or not you could consume one of these and you can't. I will eat this if I'm wrong about that. So there, oh yeah, but that paper is going to be added to our link tree as of the posting of this episode, which will be in the description down below. So if you are interested in reading it, it'll be right down there, along with the links I was talking about last episode and the paper about intersectionality, all that stuff. So yeah, go check that out.
Speaker 1:Killian, as stated above, as of 1576, just meant anything to do with Achilles. See how that starts to happen from here. But yeah, it just means anything to do with achilles as a 1576. From there it becomes pretty easy for that move into becoming an identity term. But there actually is a really concrete history into how that happened which is pretty interesting. As early as 1863 it was used to describe, describe sexuality. With John Addington Simon's 1883 book A Problem in Greek Ethics, chapters three and five, and those are the chapters in which it is Killian is discussed as an identity term.
Speaker 1:Simmonds, who was born in 1840 and died in 1893, was an early advocate of male love and an english author who spoke about achillean friendship as an ideal of manly love devoid of ephemacy, emphasizing that the love between achilles and patrickleys had, at its most important aspects, loyalty and mutual goodwill. So it is an Achillean friendship. Again. It's how we go from Achillean just meaning anything to do with Achilles and Patroclus, to Achillean, anything to do with Achilles, including his specific type of love, with Achilles, including his specific type of love, which, at its core, as it says, emphasizing the love Achilles and Patroclus had at its most important aspects loyalty and mutual goodwill. Yeah, at the end of the day, we can all discuss the problematicness, if you will, behind the idea of the devoid of ephemasy, but again, this was in 1883 that this was first being used as an identity term. Obviously, that is no longer the case with a lot of people who identify as Achillean, is no longer the case with a lot of people who identify as Achillean, for example, I would say that, yeah, I would say there's a certain aspect of my identity that identifies as that masculine male attraction and love, as someone who identifies as male but clearly is very effeminate.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Saying that it is devoid of effeminacy is, I would say, outdated at this point. To the modern understanding and usages of Achillean, I would say that, more than the devoid of ephemasy, there's those aspects of loyalty and mutual goodwill and masculine aligned attraction. But again, doth not necessarily mean avoidive of mfc like I. I think that is inaccurate and also harmful to say, because I don't think there is any such thing as any living thing that is devoid of any type of human experience. Trying to say that any one person is devoid of I just yeah, I'm sure y'all get it. I'm sure y'all get it, but at the end of the day, achillean has very much just become, I think, for one, a nice way of connecting with the truth of history. Like I was saying, history will call them anything but lovers, because history hates lovers.
Speaker 1:And I think, in having an entire identity term revolving around Achilles and Patroclus, it's almost like the queer community standing up and commanding no, you will not rewrite our history any longer, if that makes sense. You will not condemn these lovers to a fate of friends. We won't let you. It feels like a taking back of sorts. It feels like a reclamation of history of sorts, and I think the same thing can be said with sapphic it.
Speaker 1:It's about unwriting compulsory heterosexuality or heteronormativity. It's about unwriting the compet that has been written into our queer history. Achilles was queer. Unwriting the compet that has been written into our queer history. Achilles was queer. The hero, the man's man, was queer. He was one of us.
Speaker 1:That's our queer history, that's our queer mythos and it was denied almost from its inception. But almost from it it was obviously an ancient Greek. I wouldn't say it was denied, but also I don't know. I wasn't alive then but I wouldn't say so because, again, as that historian said, the love between Achilles and Patroclus was meant to show Greek men the idealized form of male love. But yeah, it feels a reclamation of a history that has been unwritten and rewritten through the eyes of compet and monotheistic religion, whereas using these words like sapphic and Achillean, sappho and achilles as identity terms, it is reclaiming our own queer history. I think that's pretty fucking cool, I think that's pretty sick, I don't know. I like that, I. That's my favorite aspect of these identities personally is there is an undeniable air of reclamation to them.
Speaker 1:But yeah, and from here we have the flags, which again, there are two. I love this. I love that we did two flags, two flags for the past two episodes. I love this. The first Achillean flag consists of two blue stripes on the top and bottom of the flag and a white through the middle, with a realistic green carnation at the center of the flag. The blue symbolizes the specific love of male-aligned queer attraction, while the green carnation calls back to Oscar Wilde and the ancient Rome and 19th century English symbolism of green being connected to mask attraction. The second iteration of the flag has the same coloring, with the green carnation at the center having a non-realistic design, again like the sapphic flag. The first flag was posted sometime in 2016 by Tumblr, user Pride and Positivity, and the reiteration was posted on DeviantArt on October 5th 2016 by user Pride Flags. So yeah, and real quick.
Speaker 1:Speaking of Oscar Wilde, have y'all seen I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose it about this? Janine, I don't even know if you would have known about this, but, like you about to, because of editing this, have y'all seen that they're remaking the portrait of dorian gray movie, like they're making another movie. They've already made a movie of that, just so y'all know. I don't know if you knew that there's already a movie of that. Anyway, they're making'all know I don't know if you knew that there's already a movie of that. Anyway, they're making another movie for the Portrait of Dorian Gray, which is an Oscar Wilde book himself, or maybe even god of themselves, I should say. For some reason, they have decided to make dorian and basil siblings. For some reason, they're brothers, and not only is that just wrong. That is so fucking disrespectful. That is literally taking a shit on Oscar Wilde's grave, because this isn't like super common knowledge. But Dorian Gray the portrait of Dorian Gray was used against Oscar Wilde in court during his case about homosexuality, of accusing him of homosexuality. Lines and and and sections of the portrait of dorian gray specifically referring to dorian and basil's relationship was used against him in a court of law about his queerness. And now they're making them siblings.
Speaker 1:So you know what I was just talking about before, about the whole like unwriting and rewriting of queer history. Yeah, that it's happening right before our very eyes in 2024. So don't let the. It happens constantly. They're still doing it to us. They are still trying to erase our queer history. Don't let it happens constantly. They're still doing it to us. They are still trying to erase our queer history. Don't let them.
Speaker 1:And also, fuck this new movie like the fuck this new movie hard. I'm not gonna go see it. I don't recommend y'all do. I'm not gonna be recommending it. If you want to see it, I'm not your boss, I'm not your mom. If you want to see it, I'm not your boss, I'm not your mom. But, like I, I'm not going to be giving this movie my anything at all period. Uh, so yeah, I siblings, they're making them siblings.
Speaker 1:The reaction tiktoks have been some of my favorite things, though people finding out that they're making dorian and basil siblings, and just the screams. I heard someone scream when they found out, and I almost did too. I was like what, yeah again. Like I was just talking about with the whole, like it's not.
Speaker 1:The idea of changing queer history to fit a comp het society is not old news. It's still happening constantly, even in the time of we have gay marriage and everything should be fine, and we're in 2024. How are we not over this? Yet they are still doing what was being done. Like all just like, sit with that for a bit. Remember that this isn't something that only happened in the past, in this monolith of time, and now we're better. No, we still have a long way to go, and that's one of the reasons why.
Speaker 1:One of the reasons why I've really enjoyed doing this podcast is, you know, just trying to get that queer history and information out there. It's something that I feel like is so important and so frequently forgotten and when it is focused on, we very much focus on, like the AIDS crisis and Stonewall and then a lot of other things that happened before that, during that, after that, around those things. They just tend to get lost to the wayside, which makes sense, because it's not like we learn about any of this in school. It's not like we are given the chance to understand this history in the context of a history class outside of specifically studying queer theory, but that's one of the reasons why doing this has been so nice, impactful, fun.
Speaker 1:I don't know multiple different things, even though I am struggling.
Speaker 1:Frequently I'll say Frequently life is kicking me in the ass and taking my name and pelting me with lemons, but I don't have a juicer and my hands hurt. If anyone want to come help me squeeze some of these lemonades I'm just kidding, I'm going off on a tangent at this point, but yeah, just, these are all things that are still occurring and it is important to remember that. And it is important to continue to work toward a world where, when we learn about our history, we learn about it accurately, we learn about it completely and fully, in its entirety, from as many different angles and lenses and points of view as possible, because that is super important. And yeah, I don't know, I just that just boggled my mind hearing about that. What do you mean? They're siblings, what do you mean? So yeah, that's not our interesting fact for the day. That just boggled my mind, but here's our interesting fact for the day. Interesting fact, here we go.
Speaker 1:Patroclus does not speak within the Iliad until book 11, and his first words are asking Achilles what he needs of him. Relatedly, his last words are Achilles' name. Patroclus and Achilles were also buried in a joint tomb. No-transcript.