Ep. 60: Tony Costa - FOLLOW UP

Discover the unnerving and complex life of Tony Costa, the notorious serial killer from Provincetown, through a chilling exploration that peels back layers of mystery and human psyche. Join us as we journey alongside Liza, offering a deeply personal glimpse into her shocking discovery of Costa's dark side, and the profound impact it had on her understanding of human nature. This episode weaves together insights from "The Babysitter," shedding light on Costa's fixation on a father he never knew and the unsettling signs that foreshadowed his descent into criminality.

Ever thought about what it means to preserve a pet through taxidermy? We venture into this peculiar terrain, sparking a spirited debate on whether this practice serves as a heartfelt tribute or veers into the realm of the uncanny. Our conversation not only tackles the ethics and emotions surrounding this topic but also imagines the more unconventional ways people might choose to memorialize their loved ones. It’s a blend of serious reflection and playful banter that invites you to ponder the myriad ways we grapple with loss and remembrance.

We then delve into the multifaceted issues of addiction and societal neglect that shadowed Tony Costa's life, painting a vivid picture of his troubled relationships and psychological struggles. The episode takes you through the disturbing discovery of Susan's disappearance and the tragic stories that emerged from Pine Grove Cemetery. We unravel Tony's story from trial to a puzzling death, examining how personal trauma and systemic issues intertwined in his life. This narrative challenges us to reflect on the enduring mysteries and stigmas surrounding Costa, leaving us to wonder about the fine line between victim and villain.

The Babysitter: My Summers with a Serial Killer

Transcript

The Pina Colada Song

Speaker 1 0:05

So who sings that Pina Colada song?

Speaker 2 0:07

Look it up. I don't know that one. Is that Jimmy?

Speaker 1 0:09

Buffett, no, it's.

Speaker 2 0:10

Margaritaville.

Speaker 1 0:12

Right, I'm right on that. One right yeah, for real.

Speaker 2 0:14

Now he's got me wanting to open up the Pina Colada.

Speaker 1 0:18

Who sings the Pina Colada song? Rupert Holmes sings the song Escape, rupert Holmes, and it's called Escape. It's called Escape the Pina.

Speaker 2 0:32

Colada song. Is it really so? You were both right, you and Google.

Speaker 1 0:38

If you like, Pina Coladas getting caught in the rain.

Speaker 3 0:47

Okay, okay, hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.

Speaker 2 1:04

Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us. This is Wicked Wanderings, and get ready to wander into the darkness with us.

Speaker 1 1:13

This is.

Speaker 3 1:13

Wicked Wanderings Hi Hannah, hi Courtney.

Speaker 2 1:31

Hi Rob.

Speaker 1 1:32

Hi Courtney.

Speaker 2 1:32

Hi Rob, hello Courtney, hi Kenzie or Hannah barking. So I have a weird episode for us today. We like weird here at Working.

Speaker 3 1:42

Wanderings.

Speaker 1 1:43

Weird is normal here.

Speaker 2 1:44

Weirdos unite, I feel an urge to. When I learn something more about somebody that I present to the Wanderers, I want to share it with them too. So I started with like a really long text thread to Hannah and then she was like, are you going to do like an update episode? And I was like, wow, great idea, because I'm still new to this podcasting thing. So if you remember, before, bundy, I did an episode on Tony Costa from Provincetown and I, literally right after finishing the book, I'm on Amazon and I get this suggested. You might like you know, dreaded book ad and it was titled the Babysitter and it was actually a book about Tony Costa from the perspective of a girl who used to After reading the book, I won't say babysit, but kind of so from someone he used to babysit for when she was a child. So personal connection, right, and so I liked both books. I'll say that about hell town and the babysitter. But I feel like the babysitter gave a different perspective. It also gave you a little bit of backstory of liza, um, the young girl and the author of the book, um. So I wanted to kind of go through just kind of bullet points of different things that were different from the babysitter, where there was a little bit more information that when you guys had asked me about it I didn't know from hell town. Let's do it.

Speaker 2 2:55

So the book begins with liza describing, um, that she very casually found out that tony was a serial killer. So she's just like having this conversation with her mom. Small spoiler alert if you're gonna read the book she does not have a great relationship with her mom. Her mom is really just has two kids and just does not like Liza. That's very obvious. And so she has said to her mom something about oh, did you know there was a serial killer in that area? At the same time we were there and she's like, oh yeah, it was Tony. And so this girl's like what do you mean? It was Tony. Tony used to babysit for us. That was like right where the book starts off and I'm like, ok, I'm in, I'm hooked.

Speaker 2 3:29

I read this book in like two days probably because it was just that fascinating to me. So she has this casual conversation. She learns that Tony was in fact the serial killer. So then it flips over into Tony's perspective, because it does rotate between Liza and Tony, and so it goes into a little bit more background about his father. So I think it wasannah who had asked when we recorded like okay, we know all this stuff about his mom. We know that he had this really bizarre relationship with his mom mommy issues, if you will. He had um, no relationship with his father, so his father was a veteran. He actually um was killed in action, oh, and so tony had never met him. So was it? Was this vietnam?

Speaker 3 4:09

war at that time I think so.

Speaker 2 4:11

I regret that I didn't put that in my notes, but he was killed when tony was eight months old, so there really is no. I mean, yes, it's his father, but there is no connection.

The Impact of Childhood Trauma

Speaker 2 4:20

He doesn't know him and for some reason he spends a very long time like completely fixated on this guy um, which I think makes sense, and you know you're curious, right exactly. But he was beyond curious. From the reports it seems like he was completely fixated, and so there's a lot of things that I'm going to point out where in my notes I put things that I was like, hmm, could that have been a red flag, should somebody have noticed it. The dad thing doesn't seem like a big deal, but that's not where his fixation seizes. It just seemed to be, from my perspective, where it started. So taxidermy is something he was obviously very interested in. I know I talked about that a lot the last time. It was an obsession. So his stepbrother commented on how he had ordered a kit from sears catalog when he was a kid and taxidermy was just like obscurely big for him I mean there's.

Speaker 3 5:08

I didn't even know you could get that in a Sears catalog. Neither did I.

Speaker 2 5:11

I'm assuming you know Sears used to be really big, I guess, but he. What was more interesting than the fact that he had had access to purchase this taxidermy kit was that he had killed and disemboweled small animals, but he never completed a taxidermy project. So to me, when I was writing it I I've recently gotten to annotating and I had put a sticky note that was like so he's killing them, but he's not doing the taxidermy piece so is it more about the killing or?

Speaker 3 5:39

is it more about the taxidermy or?

Speaker 2 5:40

taxidermy, the reason he just says he's killing right, because for some people that do taxidermy it's an art form for them right, right and he and there's a little bit more on that later too, where he talks about his art, but like nobody ever sees these projects so it really can't be about taxidermy, because he's not taxidermizing it right, they proudly show them off they have all of it on display, because there's people that will do that for like your animals that have passed, like which personally that seems a little too much for me.

Speaker 1 6:07

I was. I was literally gonna ask you would you want to do that with one of our pets?

Speaker 3 6:12

no, no that's creepy.

Speaker 2 6:13

No, no, that's so creepy, do you want?

Speaker 1 6:17

to do that. I don't know.

Speaker 3 6:19

Maybe I mean what you just want, like a thing of kenzie, just like hanging out I'll get you a stuffed animal and we can name it I had animals growing up but I was never like close to the animals as I am to this dog right here.

Speaker 1 6:32

This is like my baby and my everything and she's such a good little girl and I I know you only get, you know, 10 to 15 years, 20 years, tops out of uh pets and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 6:43

But you know we live a lot longer and honey, maybe this is a conversation you need to have.

Speaker 1 6:49

Um, I'm adding my two cents I, I just feel like it would be nice to say oh, hi, kenzie have something to remember her, but everybody has a different way that they do it.

Speaker 2 6:59

Yeah, like put your judgment face away.

Speaker 3 7:02

I just I don't want to turn a corner and just be like her.

Speaker 2 7:07

I mean, I have a. I have a lovely artist who I know personally. She does amazing work. She commissioned a uh portrait of my my deceased dog that I absolutely love and some people would call that morbid like she's framed and she's in my living room and people are like who's that? See I I get that. Everybody has a different idea. I know some people keep like little pieces of their hair, some people keep their ashes in a box.

Speaker 3 7:29

Everybody ashes in the box. I'm fine with.

Speaker 1 7:31

And I wouldn't want her like sitting or anything. I would want her laying down in a circle like she normally does, like like she is right now, and then you know you could put her bed there and she could just lay there and be like there's Kenzie.

Speaker 2 7:45

You know, ok, I'm going to just play devil's advocate here for a minute, because I wouldn't do it, so I'm going to preface it by saying that. But, there are a large group of people who have like I don't want to call them stuffed animals. They're not stuffed animals, but they are. They're basically taxidermy, but they're not real animals that do the same thing.

Speaker 2 8:06

There are a lot of people who have things like that. I worked in a house, an ABA that had one, and I was like, oh, you have a dog. And they were like, yeah, and then the dog never moved and I was like, oh, it's a dog, but it's a dog, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 8:18

I don't know, I just think you know. As soon as she said taxidermy, that's what I started thinking about.

Speaker 3 8:23

So what happens when we get another dog?

Speaker 1 8:28

So we get another dog get another dog. So we we get another dog and we still have kenzie, and then you know later on down the line you have two dogs and a new dog. We put the two dogs together whatever that dog used to do a lot. You know, kenzie likes to lay in a circle and she's so cute. Look at her right now. I just want to keep her that way forever. That's all I just want to.

Speaker 2 8:49

I think it's very sweet that rob feels that way.

Speaker 1 8:51

I do and it would be. It would be her fur right, because they keep the fur that's basically it.

Speaker 2 8:56

My dad hunts and they do taxidermy for those you can just pet her anytime you wanted to. I'm sorry, I think it's kind of funny that that hannah is like thinking rob is morbid right now but, like Hannah has skulls sitting around and like yeah the most morbid sense beyond myself. I mean, that would be like me saying he was weird when I have tuberculosis on a glass slide in my living room.

Speaker 3 9:20

So you know, I mean to each his own.

Speaker 2 9:22

Um, I'll move on to something that I think will be a very big different chain.

Speaker 1 9:28

I love you, Hannah.

Speaker 2 9:29

I love you too, darling.

Speaker 1 9:30

And I love our Kenzie.

Speaker 2 9:33

I hope Hannah doesn't die before Rob, because Rob's going to try to make us stuff. Hannah, what would it be? Would she be reading a book?

Speaker 3 9:40

Is that something Hannah does a lot? She's reading a book.

Speaker 2 9:44

Drinking a beer, reading a book, I come over to visit Rob and I just hug Hannah Hi. Hannah, oh man, okay, that's good, I need a quick second, this is going to be flagged for something.

Speaker 3 9:56

I just know it.

Speaker 1 9:58

Yeah for the Pina Colada song in the beginning.

Speaker 2 10:01

That's why we won't include that part, right, we just cut the music out. Or can we include, like, a certain segment of it?

Speaker 1 10:06

I think it can include like five seconds, I don't know.

Speaker 2 10:08

Okay, before it becomes a copyright situation.

Speaker 1 10:10

I don't know.

Speaker 2 10:10

Okay, well, we'll go back to Tony and his red flags, because there's a lot of them.

Speaker 3 10:15

We'll deal with Rob's red flags later.

Speaker 2 10:17

So, beyond the mommy issues, the missing father issue, the taxidermy love, this is a spot where I will say, as a person who works with children, tony was sexually assaulted as a child. There's no clear idea of who it was. He would never ID the person, he would never speak about it. He just said it was an older kid. He did at some point confide it in his wife, avis, so he buried her when he was 18 and she was closer to like 14, I think, oh, wow, more on that later too. That actually might be my next point of red flags.

Speaker 2 10:53

But again after that, in 2009, they actually had tried to ask Avis, like you know, oh, who was it who had sexually assaulted him? And she had said you know I won't ID him, but he is still alive and he is still in Provincetown. So it is somebody who he was probably still around, who he probably still had encounters with, and as much as I don't condone anything that he did, I can understand that there is that trauma caused something for him, and there was a question about whether or not he was actually sexually assaulted again. So, if you'll remember, by the same person. No Good question, though. So he remember he always had that alter ego, corey, he was always trying to blame Corey.

Speaker 2 11:30

Corey was actually a close friend, a follower of him, who was molested by a priest, and so he had said that. The Corey had said that the priest was drugging them through the wine for communion and then taking them into the back room every Sunday and molesting them. Was he an altar boy? Yes, Okay, so is Tony. So it was alleged that this was happening every single Sunday. And Corey the only reason why they found out is because he was found unconscious outside and the police had to take him in so potentially this same priest had sexually assaulted tony as well I think there's something also to be, because there is someone that is close to me not I'm not close to them, but they're related, close.

Speaker 3 12:19

Okay that has been sexually assaulted, but it's not something that they'll talk about, it's not something that was ever told to me directly, it's just something that the family knows about. Uh, and I think there's something to be said for men, especially back then like that's not something, like it's hard enough for women to talk about it, right. But for men it's like no, we're, that stuff doesn't happen to us, we're manly men. Like it's, it's difficult, right, to talk about abuse as men and rob, maybe you could talk more to this like as a man, it's hard to talk about emotions and things like that, right. So I think, um, I just I, I feel for him. I think that's terrible because, like I said, I think it's hard enough for women to have to talk about it. But like men, it's like why don't you do something about it? Like you're a deal with it, for him.

Speaker 2 13:08

He was a child, you know, or at least a teenager, when both of those things happened and so you're looking at, he had a weird relationship with his mom. He had no relationship with his father. Um, you know, I kind of left him pretty vulnerable. And again, not to condone the things that he did, because those things were horrible, but, um, certainly it started to create a pattern in my head where I was seeing some of these other red flags and I was like, okay, that kind of makes sense. Um, so I know I talked a little bit about Avis, who is Tony's wife.

Speaker 2 13:34

Um, but this book went a little bit more in detail. So they actually met in spring of 1962. Um, and then people reported that days after they had met, like, he was graduating and she was still, I think, in middle school at that point. Okay, um was graduating and she was still, I think, in middle school at that point. Okay, there was a really big age gap there. But they got an intentional pregnancy because he wanted to marry her and her mom, obviously, like any self-respecting mom, was like no, I don't love this for you, this is not a good guy. Everybody tried to say to her like this is not a good guy, but she's 14, right, and the older guy likes her.

Speaker 2 14:09

And we've all been there. We haven't, we haven't I've exposed myself, but it's him and his wife is a very fascinating point for me because he goes into. There's gender roles for him that are very important, which goes right back into the mommy issue. So his mom took care of everything. She cleaned the house, she cooked, she did all these very specific things, she cared for the home in just a very specific manner and he just assumed that his wife was going to do the same thing, so she's a young girl.

Speaker 2 14:34

She's, you know, grossly younger than him. She has no idea how to be a wife or how to be a mother or any of those things. She shouldn't even have to be focused on those things. And when she's failing to be able to do these very specific things that he's not communicating, you know, he's getting mad, he's getting abusive, he's getting out of line. And it started to cause many issues in their marriage, which I don't think surprises anybody, given that the nature of their marriage was kind of a disaster before it even started, including in that some odd hypersexual behaviors and kinks.

Speaker 2 15:13

Hypersexual behaviors and kinks. Um, so she had commented kind of like waveringly, like most of what he wanted did not and did not involve her pleasure or her in traditional sex, and what I mean by that is like he wanted to get off, but but she didn't necessarily. It wasn't necessarily like vaginal penetrative sex, okay. So like he had a really hard time performing unless she was unconscious. So he would use the date rape drug on her. Oh, good lord, he would do and she would willingly take it.

Speaker 2 15:36

Yeah, I mean, it was an abusive, it was an abusive marriage, it was an abusive situation um and there were also occasions where he would want to like tie her up, like hang her from the ceiling and like masturbate and like that was part of his thing masturbate like on her or just masturbate in general it wasn't super clear.

Pattern of Behavior in True Crime

Speaker 2 15:52

Okay, um, I'm assuming it was on her, but I didn't necessarily get into that much detail with it. So it's very interesting. So all those things are happening and then, um, in 1966, um, he leaves home with his wife and his kids there and he leaves with um bonnie williams and Diane Federoff, who I mentioned in the Victims the first time. So things go awry. People had you know they're missing. They don't know where they went.

Speaker 2 16:19

He has so many inconsistent stories and I didn't want to get into—I tried not to get too involved in the he said she said about each of the different crimes. I kind of pointed out where there were drastic differences involved in the he said she said about each of the different crimes. I kind of pointed out where there were drastic differences. So for this one they didn't really fill in any more information in this book but they did just highlight that. You know he was so inconsistent with the stories and for me I pointed out okay, that's a pattern, because we know from the final two that he had killed where he ended up, you know, getting convicted. He was the same way. It was like oh, I sent this telegram oh, they were over here, so he's really inconsistent all of the time.

Speaker 2 16:50

Um, in summer of 1966 is when the author meets tony, so it's when eliza actually establishes her relationship. Um, tony's mom works at this motel and so does, uh, the author's mom. Okay, so they meet through there. Um, and she has very fond memories of riding to the dump with him getting ice cream. Her and her little sister used to go with him all the time. Her mom was very into like, going out, partying, going out with guys, and so it was very much like hey, I'm going to go out, can you watch the girls? And Tony would be like, yeah, okay, sure, come with me to the dump, we'll get ice cream. So like she remembers them as very fond times.

Speaker 2 17:27

There was a note also that he had some OCD going on which I was like, yeah, of course it wasn't noted in Helltown, but very clearly that makes sense for me. In the same summer he moves back in with Avis. So he actually goes back to his wife and kids and he moves in, and now we find that he sexually assaulted her and so his reasoning for it was, and I quote you're my wife, okay. So now we're kind of taking that trauma that happened to us and we're kind of this. I wanted to highlight it because now we're putting it onto other people, we're seeing that pattern really start for him and so he actually describes during that time when he lives with her in a moment where he's feeling a little bit vulnerable, that he feels like two different Tonys. He's like I feel like there's one part of me and then I split and there's this other part of me.

Speaker 2 18:14

So there were some precursor things that Helltown didn't make sound like or didn't have the knowledge that were there. Certainly he also had identified that the Pine Grove Cemetery was a safe and thinking spot for him. So that's the place where he was burying his bodies by the end. So before he was even doing that, this was a comfort spot for him and we've talked about with Bundy. Serial killers go to that very specific spot. They dump their bodies.

Speaker 3 18:37

They feel comfortable there, right, because he went on hikes there with his family and that was a comfort spot, right exactly.

Speaker 2 18:42

And so the pieces really started to come together after I read the second book, where I'm like okay, this really makes sense. I really can't figure out. I mean hindsight 2020.

Speaker 3 18:50

Right, but it really does line up. But it really does line up too, Like he had his bodies where he was in comfort, Like it's a thing, 100% 100%.

Speaker 2 18:58

He also had a really interesting pattern of keeping company with young people, which I guess I could have picked up from Hell town, but this book really just calls him right out of it. They're like, you know, he was hanging out with the kids he was babysitting, for he was dating someone who was younger than him. He had all these followers or groupies around town who were a lot younger than him. He was kind of always taking on that older role, which is interesting because he didn't have one of those easier to manipulate though that's kind of what I was thinking too. But it is interesting because his Easier to manipulate, though.

Speaker 2 19:42

In March of 1967, he actually sought some medical attention. He was having some difficulties with sleeping and other things, and Dr Callas was guilty of overprescribing meds, which did actually lead to his, you know, overuse of drugs. After two years of seeing him as a patient, dr Callas cut him off as a patient and then one month later, tony broke into his office and robbed him for the drugs. So you know, clearly there's like, it's literally like stepping stones when you're really looking at it and breaking it down.

Speaker 3 20:11

There's something you say for opioids, right? Because, rob, I know you were really fascinated by the opioid epidemics that were happening because you watched a documentary. Was it for the 90s, though, like where these doctors were just like prescribing medications too readily and it was causing people to get addicted?

Speaker 1 20:27

well, it was actually a show okay that was on hulu and it was with um. What's his name? Batman, he also. He also played beetlejuice he was batman.

The Disturbing Story of Tony

Speaker 3 20:40

Yeah, no, he wasn't I didn't know in the 90s, yeah, uh I see him in my head, but you don't choose Keaton.

Speaker 1 20:48

Keaton, michael Keaton.

Speaker 3 20:50

Michael Keaton.

Speaker 1 20:51

Yes, I didn't know that. So yeah, he was, let's see.

Speaker 3 20:56

Sorry, I know it's kind of a tangent, but you were kind of fascinated by how fast doctors would just prescribe shit.

Speaker 2 21:02

And it is really fascinating because they do just over-prescribe. Yeah, even when I was reading it, when it was like, oh and they were guilty of over prescribing.

Speaker 1 21:12

I found myself being like, yeah, they do dope sick. It was called dope sick.

Speaker 3 21:15

Eight episodes and but it wasn't a documentary, though it was like, but it was taken from real life yes, it was.

Speaker 1 21:22

It was based on real people, but, uh, michael keaton played a doctor that and I'm using quotation marks he was a doctor that got addicted to opiates. But his character itself is not a real character. It was based on doctors that had those issues where he ends up losing his uh doctor license because, he was writing prescriptions for himself, for himself yeah, which, and you know what's interesting?

Speaker 2 21:48

I mean, obviously, writing a prescription for yourself is a whole it's one issue, but it's also a whole different issue too.

Speaker 2 21:54

I feel like we are not, or we weren't for a long time, having doctors take accountability for what they were doing. Like I know people close to me who, like you, go in. I mean, I know me, I was in a car accident several years ago. I hurt my neck. I really only needed muscle relaxers. But they were like, oh, do you want? You want hydrocodone too? I'm like, no, yeah, I don't want that in my house. I'll take a muscle relaxer and that's it. But if we really do prescribe it at gross volumes, we refill it. Um, so I mean, again, not to say that he's not responsible for his own stuff, yes, but again, there's, there's other people playing key roles in here that, yes, weren't as obvious at first. I thought it was interesting because there was reference to an apartment that he had that had a private locked art studio that no one ever knew about. So the landlord, when he moved out, was like what the fuck is this? And he had built a room in the basement that was locked as an art studio and it was destroyed in 1968. And so the evidence that was probably in there. People close to him had said it was his art studio. They had never seen the inside of it, including people who lived with him, and they had never seen any art he produced out of it. But we have no idea what was in there. No, because the landlord was like, oh well, he moved out, so I'm just going to destroy it. But the landlord never said what he saw. Nope, huh. Maybe he hired a crew of people I could think of to come in and empty it out. Maybe he just wrecked the building. I have no idea, but so much evidence was probably lost.

Speaker 2 23:17

In that moment as well, I'm thinking, um, and I also thought it was really interesting that not only did he babysit and seem to be really good at it with the author, but the author recalls going to the pine grove cemetery and having tony show her, at nine years old, his secret garden, huh. So he actually like took her there and her and her sister and was like, oh, I'm gonna be right back. You know, I'm gonna go do this and this and don't leave, I'll come right back. Like what was he doing? Was that one of the times he was going to go dump something? What was happening? And how cocky right to go to go to the spot with this kid. I mean, unfortunately her mom really didn't, really didn't care about what was happening, um, but still like she could have said something. She could have said oh, I saw this or that but did it seem like he cared about these girls?

Speaker 3 24:07

yes, I did get the vibe from that. It's like it's a whole bunny thing, like they like they pick the certain people to just care about and nurture and check in on, and it's like how, yeah, how do you pick?

Speaker 2 24:21

I guess is what I don't understand I'm thinking it's based off of characteristics for him, because his was always younger women, not children, not middle-aged women, younger women um, probably one of the most sad. I mean, the whole thing of what he did was sad. But susan's story, one of his victims, um, the one that they had said like left for mexico and then everyone was like, oh okay, bye, okay bye, susan, she's in Mexico. The saddest part, in my opinion, was that no one noticed or cared to report her missing. So like she went to Mexico quote unquote here I wanders and nobody was like around or cared enough to be like oh wait, that doesn't seem like her.

Speaker 2 25:03

I'm going to check in on her and then the only reason why she was actually reported was months later we're reporting on the news channel about how they had found the bodies at Pine Grove Cemetery. That's when her mom was like I ought to report her missing. How sad, right. This poor girl was missing for months and nobody even cared until other people's bodies were found. And that just that. That was like OK, wow, that's, that's a lot.

Speaker 2 25:28

In 1968, he was actually in jail for failure to pay child support, which I know I brought up from Helltown. Yes, what I didn't know is that during that time he was sending threatening letters to Avis about how he was going to cut her up into little pieces. Oh, good Lord, where, at this point? Where were the people in the jail? Reading the letters is what I found myself thinking. Like he, he was in, he loved taxidermy. He loved, we know, he cut his victims up. Now he's literally putting it in writing I'm going to cut you into little pieces. And you know, now the red flags are really going off in my head. I'm like, ok, what was happening with this guy? He ended up getting released on November 4th, four months early, because of his connection he had with Jimmy Meads, who helped him out as the favor he had done Because, remember, he was undercover Reporting for the police station. So you know, he contacted Jimmy. He's like, hey, can you help me? Jimmy's like, yeah, okay, I guess I can help you. So we had him right, he's in jail and we let him go.

Speaker 2 26:23

So Christine, another one of his victims, who Christine Gillen, she was 19 years old. She was actually in an abusive relationship with a married man when Tony had met her and she was from Fall River. But she at a certain point, right after he got released from jail, started to fear him now. So at first she was like, oh, I like Tony, he's this good guy. She started to fear him. He actually had reported to other people on November 22nd. So he was released on November 22nd. So he was released on November 4th. On November 22nd she was reporting to others. I think he's going to kill me. I fear he's going to kill me. And unfortunately, before her married lover could arrive, tony arrived and he staged an OD to make it look like a suicide. Little shit, like I mean she really.

Speaker 2 27:10

She like a suicide little shit, like I mean she really interesting. She had it, you know, down and she knew, and and he was there too quick, he knew he must have known that she knew or had an inkling but, obviously they figured it out.

Speaker 2 27:17

It wasn't a suicide it's still technically ruled as a suicide but it's hypothesized. Yeah, that he was the one who who did the deed. I also thought it was really interesting that, um, he always talks about different alter egos. He actually has an alter ego named carl that comes from lsd trips. So he blames things on this carl guy, but it's actually somebody who he created during an lsd trip.

Speaker 3 27:42

Lucy in the sky with diamonds carl in the sky with diamonds yeah absolutely, and he also.

Speaker 2 27:49

He had just so many red flags Like I can't even tell you how many things he reported to somebody that ended up coming up in this book. He reported being fascinated by dismembering bodies Like who's fascinated by dismembered bodies right.

Speaker 2 28:02

One of the things that I thought was interesting is that he was reported by other people as frequently going to Boston to frequent gay bars. So he frequently went to these gay bars. They said he was always well-behaved when he was there. He was always mild-mannered. He always, you know, did he have an identity crisis Like?

Speaker 2 28:19

he oh, but he never left with anybody. They noted he always left alone. Yeah, so for him, I started to wonder, like, was it an identity crisis? Was it that he was searching for a male victim but he didn't find one? Was it like a? But you can get a male victim, not a gay bar? I mean, I'm just thinking the daddy issues, the priest thing. Whoever sexually assaulted him was a man.

Speaker 2 28:45

There's certainly some things that lead to different areas and obviously there was a lot more detail to Wonders. If you want to be reading this book. I mean it's definitely a really good book. If you could only read one between Hulltown and the Babysitter, I would probably read the Babysitter. It has a little bit more information in depth about things. But if you have the time and you're interested, reading both is definitely my first recommendation. That's so sad they started. Oh, there's more, don't you worry.

Speaker 2 29:13

I broke the last sections down into kind of the downfall of like where things started to fall apart for him, and then what it looked like for him in prison, because there was a little bit more information on both of those than what I got in the first book. So he was arraigned on two counts of murder in the first degree. So, despite you know all the things and victims that he potentially had, that was the official count of what he had. Um, and he wrote avis from jail telling her to accuse other people, including chuck hansen, who is actually a person he totally made up, oh god. So he's in jail and he's like avis. Sorry, I just sorry. I told you I was gonna cut you into a bunch of pieces. Can you do me a favor? Sorry, I didn't pay child support. Could you please accuse this Chuck Hansen of all of these crimes?

Speaker 3 29:50

I did. That's worse than Bunny with Meg. Like, can you just check in and make sure she's sticking around?

Speaker 2 29:56

And so I think they didn't distinctly say she didn't answer, but I'm thinking that she probably just like whatever you know, whatever, tony kind of ignored him. What I thought was also interesting is, as my asylum enthusiast self would be interested, he actually went to Bridgewater State Hospital for 35 days, court mandated for a psych exam to see if he could stand trial, which is a local one, and he was found to be not insane.

Speaker 3 30:22

They were like there's nothing wrong with this man, he can stand trial. He's got bad morals dude.

Speaker 2 30:28

He also reported that he and Corey which Corey is an alter, but also his follower friend who was assaulted by the priest had a quote homosexual but not homogenital relation. Say that again Homosexual, okay, but not homogenital relation. I have no idea what that means. I wanted to dissect it with you because I was like you, what I could look into.

Speaker 2 30:51

This it looks could be good, good conversation okay, so homosexual relationship, which obviously right I'm gonna look up homogenital, because I've just never heard anybody yeah okay, so we have two people of the same sex but it seems like it might be like a religious thing. So what? So the church doesn't get mad at you? Well, what is the basic for catholic teaching about the immoral immorality of homogenital acts? Basically, every genital act must be open to the possibility of conception. So homogenital must just be, homosexual must just be the relationship piece and homo genital must be like two people who are engaging in sex but homo is same right.

Speaker 3 31:37

Right, but I would assume that we mean same generals.

Unpacking Tony's Troubling Story

Speaker 2 31:41

But I'm wondering if right, but like homo sexual meaning, like your relationship is the same, two same-sex partners in the same relationship. Huh, I didn't understand it, but it was in there and I was like that's a really interesting thing to put in here especially given the information that they had just given me in the chapter before about him going to the gay bar, and I was like, interesting, hmm is that why he couldn't perform with his wife?

Speaker 3 32:09

I mean right, right, right. Is that why right? Is that why he couldn't?

Speaker 2 32:10

perform with his wife. I mean right right, right is that why right?

Speaker 3 32:13

is that why he needed her to act like a slab?

Speaker 2 32:16

and then it's like we don't know anything about his sexual preferences when he was not killing people, like is the only sex he had with dead bodies because they have to be unconscious. I don't know, that's not something that was reported, but yeah, that's. It's certainly something to you know to consider. That's a lot to unpack. There's a lot to unpack with tony um. He also ended up having to have a bunch of different psyche vows done because his attorney was like I just don't know what. This guy is able to stand trial. So he ended up getting one at mclean hospital as well, which is another local hospital.

Speaker 2 32:50

Mclean is still open with a very good reputation for treating individuals in many different ways. They have lots of different programs. So if you're um, if you're needing help in any capacity, they have a lot of self-reference programs that you can do, um. But anyways, they also mentioned that when he was being interviewed he took on different personalities and accents. So in the middle of interviewing him you'd go in one day he'd be Tony, he'd be fine, and the next day you come in he'd be British, and they'd be like why are you talking like that? And he'd be like what are you talking about? I'm not talking like anything. So is that more of?

Speaker 3 33:19

a psychological issue? Or is that kind of like Bundy, where he's just a chameleon and they're just trying get stop you looking over here, to look over here, because they don't want you looking over here?

Speaker 2 33:31

I mean, after everything I read so far, I was like I don't. I don't want to say he was mentally ill, because they did all the psyche vows and they found him to be fine, right. But I do think that trauma is something that kind of turns on and off in your brain and I'm wondering if he wasn't experiencing episodes so like maybe when he was in front of the psychologist he was able to hold it all together, yeah, and he was like, well, this is it. But then when it was like a really high stress situation, maybe he wasn't, because I really can't believe that somebody like this would be totally psychologically seen yeah um, at this point, from the author's standpoint, li Liza knew that Tony was gone but he had always talked about going to California.

Speaker 2 34:13

So she was like he's either dead or he's in California, because I haven't seen him in a while and nobody was talking about it because obviously there was shame associated with it. He hadn't been formally charged. Um, he had another. He had to have a polygraph examiner come from Bridgewater um polygraph, and they were like this guy is telling you the truth, we don't know what you want. Like he's got to go to trial. Sorry, they tried everything to get him out of it and I also thought I mean the trial was kind of unremarkable. We know what they ruled, obviously, but the jury actually was taken to the site of the burial of the people and they walked them around the cemetery where they found all the bodies and things, which I thought was interesting because I don't know if other people have heard about that but I have not heard of that happening.

Speaker 3 34:57

So I think the only time I really heard about that was when we did the Lizzie Borden episode, where they actually brought some of the jurors to the house where the crime happened.

Speaker 2 35:04

It seems like an archaic type of thing to do it still happens. I would imagine some evidence you can't bring into the courtroom, but they had remarked that the only person who had any kind of emotional response to going there was his wife, who had gone as not a juror but as someone who was attending the trial.

Speaker 2 35:22

So, before I wrap it up, prison was kind of a very short spot in Helltown where it was like you know, he went there, he wrote the book that was never published but that they took excerpts from. What we didn't know is that he poor Tony, he was actually raped and bullied in prison as well. He tried to apply for a transfer. They were kind of like, yeah, if you do, you're a murderer, you're going to stay here. And he did end up having a romantic relationship and involvement with another inmate named Peter Olson, relationship and involvement with another inmate named peter olson. Um, and peter did commit suicide. So after that had happened, the warden decided to send him back to bridgewater for 60 days as a result to make sure that he was okay. He was like hey, I know you've been bullied, you've been raped, you had this relationship with this person.

Speaker 2 36:03

Um, and then, unfortunately, the day that tony died um, it was not only mother's day, but it was on the one year anniversary of peter's death. The day that Tony died, it was not only Mother's Day, but it was on the one year anniversary of Peter's death. The lawyer that worked for him is really unsure if he was killed or if he committed suicide, and it was just made to look like that. She really didn't make a strong case that I could like I could present to you guys and you would say like, ok, that's one thing or another, but for me, for a lawyer to say I'm just not convinced, say like, okay, that's one thing or another, but for me for a lawyer to say I'm just not convinced, yeah, that's kind of a big thing for them. Um, and then an interesting tie back to liza's life. Uh, liza, you know, moved on. She learned about tony and all those things, and her son, will, was actually born on tony's 44th birthday. Interesting, yeah, um, incarnate, do I hear?

Speaker 2 36:48

incarnate this book was just so wild to me from reading the first one and then I get to the acknowledgement section and Liza did a really beautiful job of like exploring things a little bit more in depth, probably because of that personal connection that you talked about Hannah, but actually three of the believed victims she had located and been able to talk with their family.

Speaker 2 37:07

They were all deceased, but not because of Tony. So Bonnie Williams, diane Federoff and Barbara Spaulding were not victims of Tony's. Something weird did happen, but they were. She kind of followed up with all of them, which I liked, and she gave you a little update about what had happened with them. They weren't all hunky-dory happy stories and they were all deceased, but they were not all killed by Tony. None of them were actually those three Interesting.

Speaker 3 37:35

Well, that was quite an update. There's a lot to unpack.

Speaker 2 37:38

It had me really. I almost went down the rabbit hole of looking up more and then I was like you know, there is such a thing as too much research.

Speaker 2 37:45

But I wanted to make sure, especially for those victims. I really wanted to make sure that I updated the Wanderers and I let them know that those three were not victims of Tony's and then just share a little bit more insight. We're really big on why people do the things they do, so obviously the crimes that they commit are awful, but understanding why these people tick and what makes them tick. You know this. Tony had been from our account what sexually assaulted at least, at least twice, right, at least twice, and then in prison who knows how many times. I mean, that was after the fact, so that's worth taking in too. But you know he had a lot of different things going on His dad and I wish they had given a little bit more in depth about his mom, not in relation to Avis, just a little bit more about who she is, but she really always held strong that he was, he was innocent, wow, yeah, well, that was very good, thank you if you're looking for a book I do recommend the babysitter.

Speaker 2 38:38

Um, you can get it on amazon. We can link it in the show notes below too. Um, but yeah, I mean tony costa. This was probably the last you'll hear unless I find it unless amazon hears me say that and pops another book suggestion up for me. But I wanted to make sure the the slate was clear. Uh, of the things tony didn't do, he did a lot of things, but some of them he didn't.

Speaker 3 38:56

Well, thank you, that was amazing update that was really good, should we do a?

Speaker 2 39:00

card. Yeah, rob, do you want to do another card for us? Uh, I am not reading it this time you want to pick one for me and I'll read it yes I would have had a heart attack if I read the last one oh really yeah, that would have been too spooky for me all right okay, all right, we have the two of spades.

Speaker 2 39:19

Uh unsolved homicide barry and dina pinto. On february 24th 1983, the victims were shot and killed inside their home located on Cherry Street in Plymouth. If you have any info about this case, please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE.

Speaker 1 39:38

They look so nice.

Speaker 2 39:39

Look at them. They're such a cute couple.

Speaker 1 39:41

What year was that?

Speaker 2 39:42

1983. 1983.

Speaker 1 39:44

Wow.

Speaker 2 39:45

Some of them really do go back pretty far. They do look like it. Do you know if they make a new deck every year, because eventually we're going to run out of cards?

Speaker 1 39:51

I know 52 cards.

Speaker 3 39:53

Well, we have a connection with the state police, right, Rob? You talked to him.

Speaker 1 39:57

Yeah. See if they're coming out with another one. This deck came out in 2021.

Speaker 2 40:06

So it's been a few years. I mean, I guess I'm glad they don't have enough cases to make one every year. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 40:11

But like I think we talked about, like we can always reach out to other state police. Yeah, maybe we can get some from Rhode Island. Rhode Island, new Hampshire right.

Speaker 2 40:19

Yeah, maine, or maybe there's one for just the US in general, you know. I mean, maybe the Wanderers have a thought, maybe they want to text us. We sound like clingy girlfriends.

Speaker 1 40:27

I'll say it every episode but we love Fairmail, the show, the Deck. Where do they get their cards from?

Speaker 2 40:34

That's a good question. I don't know.

Speaker 3 40:35

That's a good question. That's Ashley Flowers' question.

Speaker 1 40:39

Hey, ashley, if you're listening, let us know WickedWanderingsPodcast at gmailcom.

Speaker 3 40:44

Thanks, Well, thank you, courtney, thank you for listening thank you.

Speaker 2 40:52

Wanderers, yet again for a awesome episode. Thank you, rob, for your lovely producing and making us sound good sure and make sure to follow us on TikTok.

Speaker 1 40:57

It's Wicked Wanderings podcast if you go to our website you'll find us, but as soon as we get to a thousand likes on TikTok we can go live come on guys.

Speaker 3 41:09

you want to watch the uncut version you?

Speaker 2 41:11

want to watch this shit show in action. You want to hear how many times we all Rob cut. It's really not that bad. I promise we're not that bad Until next time, wanderers. We'll see you then Bye.

Speaker 1 41:22

Bye.

Speaker 3 41:23

Thanks for listening today. Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, hannah, and co-hosted by me.

Speaker 1 41:28

Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Speaker 3 41:37

Music by Sasha N. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you.