Ep. 62: Ted Bundy: Part 4

What happens when breakfast preferences collide with tales of true crime? Courtney and Hannah find humor in comparing their go-to morning routines, from McDonald's breakfast delights to Starbucks staples, all while navigating the perils of Big E traffic. Listen as they sprinkle in light-hearted mishaps with Dunkin's drinks and fond memories of their lost chicken salad croissant. Amidst the laughter, they dive into the gripping world of Ted Bundy, exploring his legal maneuvers, unsettling personal relationships, and his cunning antics, like jamming a lock with toilet paper.

The episode deepens as we venture into the shadowy complexities of Bundy's life, focusing on his legal battles and the chilling evidence that sealed his fate. With Rob's audio magic enhancing the journey, our hosts explore Bundy's psychological control tactics and the toll his actions took on his victims' families. A poignant reflection on the judicial system's ethical dilemmas, mental health considerations, and public reactions to Bundy's execution further enrich the narrative, urging for a justice system that values reform and humanity.

Amid these serious themes, the warmth of community shines through. Courtney and Hannah celebrate their passionate listeners, encouraging them to join the conversation on justice, morality, and the intricacies of human nature. As they recount stories in the Wicked Wanderings universe, gratitude flows for the support that fuels their captivating discussions. With every episode, they promise to balance heavy topics with lighter tales, always keeping the listener at the heart of their podcasting adventure.

Transcript

Breakfast Chats and Bundy Exploration

Speaker 1 0:05

Courtney, what did you have for breakfast today?

Speaker 2 0:07

Shit.

Speaker 3 0:08

I don't think I ate breakfast today, oh why not?

Speaker 2 0:11

That's not healthy.

Speaker 3 0:12

Courtney, I never eat breakfast. What did you have for breakfast today?

Speaker 1 0:15

I had a large sweet tea with no ice and a steak and onion, egg and cheese on a bagel from McDonald's.

Speaker 3 0:26

I was going to say it was from McDonald's, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 0:28

What did you have, Hannah? And two hash browns.

Speaker 2 0:31

So Rob's been really good about making me breakfast, but not himself. Well, no, he does, but like this morning, he went to get his ass out of bed and he's like I just want to go get McDonald's. So I went to Starbucks and I got my sausage, egg and cheese wrap, which I actually really like.

Speaker 3 0:47

See, I can't eat Starbucks' food.

Speaker 2 0:49

Oh, why?

Speaker 3 0:49

not I, just I don't like their food. I don't know why. I've never liked their food.

Speaker 2 0:54

I understand.

Speaker 1 0:55

Did I tell you about our new sponsor?

Speaker 2 0:57

For Wee Wanderings. Yeah, this episode's brought to you by Starbucks In our dreams. Okay, darkness with us. This is Wicked Wanderings. So first of all, hello everyone. Happy Samhain, happy Halloween. My throat was going to talk at you a couple more times, I'm sorry. Hi Courtney, hi Hannah, thank you for being committed to this podcast and being here and not feeling well. We'd love you for it. I should be sponsored by Dayquil, hi, rob.

Speaker 1 2:06

Hello.

Speaker 2 2:06

We're glad to have you here again we appreciate you.

Speaker 1 2:09

Yes, I'm all done with the Big E.

Speaker 2 2:11

Thank fucking God. I love the Big E, but then, once it's over, it's like oh, thank God.

Speaker 3 2:15

Yeah, the traffic, I'm definitely the traffic, the traffic.

Speaker 2 2:19

How many hours did we spend in it? That time we decided to go Over two In traffic.

Speaker 3 2:30

And it's a 10-minute drive, guys with no traffic, yeah, 10 minutes.

Speaker 1 2:34

We were committed, we were committed for the beer and the food and the beer and rum and the food.

Speaker 3 2:38

And t-shirts, all right. So what are we and the t-shirts? Oh, the t-shirts, yes, oh, that's right. Which?

Speaker 1 2:40

I'm actually wearing one today, yes you are.

Speaker 2 2:44

It's a nice-looking one on your t-shirt, though you can tell everyone, no one can see it, oh, yeah, so you got jason on there yes, it's jason and it says uh, running team yeah, it says camp crystal lake on it running team, which is hilarious if you've ever seen the movies.

Speaker 3 2:58

And uh, I got uh jack skeleton on mine today nightmare before coffee, no nightmare for coffee, sometimes after coffee, which?

Speaker 2 3:06

now I'm a tea girl, thanks to you, courtney, so like this doesn't, so I tried having a coffee the other day. Didn't work, did it I. So we went to Tandem Bagel and we got a breakfast and I was like, oh, I don't feel like making a tea. It really was just laziness, yeah that happens to me sometimes too.

Speaker 2 3:22

And I was like, oh, I'll just get a cold brew with foam on top, like nothing fancy, not the same. And I had such a coughing fit Right, like such a coughing fit. It was all Not like I'm allergic, but I felt like it was just like lodged in my throat. I'm like I can't. I had Rob finish it. I couldn't do it.

Speaker 3 3:38

But when you went to Starbucks did you get a pumpkin?

Speaker 2 3:40

spice. No, I always have my tea now in the morning, and then I got my. I don't drink coffee anymore.

Speaker 1 3:48

I had a green tea unsweetened from Dunkin' the other day.

Speaker 3 3:51

How was that? It was really good. I feel like Dunkin' is very hit or miss Sometimes. I get a tea from them like an iced tea and it's perfect. And sometimes I get one and I'm like what is in this?

Speaker 2 4:04

That was really good, even though they're supposed to be. All the same, no matter what chain you go to right or franchise or whatever it's, it's not. It depends on who's working, what time of day it is there's a huge line, I don't know yeah you know what else I got there?

Speaker 1 4:20

I got this uh, it's a. It was like a chicken wrap. It was really good. It was like melted cheese in it, I don't know. It was really good. I got two of them because they're they're really tiny. I needed lunch and I was in hamden and there's nothing in hamden except for duncan donuts, so that I got a green tea and, uh, two of those chicken things, but they're really good. You know, what duncan needs to bring back is their chicken salad on a croissant oh my god, that was so good.

Speaker 3 4:48

I miss it. I feel like they're trying every so often to bring in like a lunch piece. Yeah, because they're like we're irrelevant afternoon, did you see on tiktok, where they had the uh, the spider donut um duncan that was like if you do one like, we'll release our holiday menu. And then they were like we had to cancel that spider donut.

Speaker 2 5:07

Oh the one that has the munchkin in the middle it was cute, it was a good marketing ploy.

Speaker 3 5:11

I'll give them that they definitely have some creative marketing happening all right, hannah, what are we doing today?

Speaker 2 5:16

guys, this is the last, the last and I promised you last bundy episode what is this?

Speaker 3 5:25

like episode 42 of uh bundy is it our second year anniversary yet?

Speaker 2 5:29

Excuse me, the both of y'all are so mean. Okay, I really enjoyed getting to know Bundy. I know that sounds weird, but I've really enjoyed reading Ann Rule's book and understanding more of the intricacies. Intricate Intricacies, big word, courtney. Help me. Intricacies, intricate intricacies, big word, courtney, help me.

Speaker 3 5:57

Intricacies, you know what I'm trying to say, the intricacies, interesting facts about him yes, there we go. I feel like I knew a lot about bundy, but I feel like I've also learned a lot of new things too, yeah, I'm sorry everybody, I can't find my spot on this mic today. I'm like trying not to breathe into it like Darth Vader, and I get closer to it.

Speaker 2 6:21

I'm like or the kid from hey Arnold who just stands behind people.

Bundy's Legal Battles and Relationships

Speaker 1 6:27

That's what I feel like I was hoping the day quote was gonna make it better, but I don't think it did well, before we get jump into ted bundy, I'll let everyone know if you haven't listened to, uh, the previous three episodes of ted bundy. It's episode 53, episode 56 and episode 59, so that will be ted bundy part one, part two and part three, and again it's 53, 56, and 59.

Speaker 2 6:55

Thank you, Rob. What would we do without our wonderful producer?

Speaker 3 7:00

I'm just like yeah here's the episode Rob makes us sound pretty, he does, he does. I wish I could say he made us look pretty when he does his TikTok shenanigans on video. I wish he could figure out video editing, can you?

Speaker 2 7:14

make me like 75 pounds lighter. In real life and don't they say, the camera adds 10 pounds too.

Speaker 3 7:18

I feel like the camera adds like 75 pounds.

Speaker 2 7:19

Excuse me, I'm sorry everybody. Okay, on that happy note, remember we talked about the teeth marks.

Speaker 1 7:27

Yes.

Speaker 2 7:28

Okay. So going back to the teeth marks that were found on the body when they were at the sorority house right, they actually brought ted to a dentist and they wanted to get impressions of his teeth. Right, they did not tell him which, in the end, he was very pissed about, but what they were nervous about and something if we go back to a couple more episodes, a couple past episodes is that bungee, when he finds out about things, he will have no problem in, uh, making his body different. Right, he'll lose weight, he'll manipulate his body in different ways, like we talked about. He's a freaking chameleon, he really is he really is?

Speaker 2 8:07

so they were so worried that he was going to start grinding his teeth or changing them in some way that the impressions would be different, but like legally wise right.

Speaker 3 8:15

Let's think about that. Dental is also medical records, right it's still considered medical records. So they're. Even though they're investigating him without his consent, I don't know that they could do that I, I.

Speaker 2 8:28

So actually that was a thought I had.

Speaker 3 8:31

I would be pissed too. I'm with Bundy on this one.

Speaker 2 8:33

I don't know if it's because it's Florida and Florida's rules are pretty loose when it comes to people that are convicted felons or it's that Southern mentality?

Speaker 3 8:46

Yes.

Speaker 2 8:47

Or in the process of being convicted. So Ted was getting pretty nervous because florida had dozens of people on death row dozens and when we look at you know where he was, in washington, in utah their death row was not like florida at all. Like they, he would probably would just go on a life sentence for the things he's done. But flor Florida had no problem in putting someone in the electric chair. So he went on trial for the murders and his cell was pretty bland. He didn't have much outside time, which is a lot different than when he's had before where he had his typewriter. He had to have.

Speaker 3 9:24

He was like living lavish inside the prison.

Speaker 2 9:28

Made sure he had three meals a day, went to the law library. Like it was pretty. The least amount of things happened for him on a daily basis like they weren't tolerating his crap. They were like not today he still claimed he was innocent and he tried suing for inhumane treatment, which I don't know. I I think the things that he fought for when he was in prison before were rightly so, because I remember when rob was like, wait a minute, they didn't have three meals a day.

Speaker 2 10:01

I think that's something that a human right should have right, like human right, access to a bathroom and and literature and three meals a day those should be things that every person should have. And outside time, because all of us need some, like fresh air too, yes, vitamins in our skin through the sun, so vitamin d exactly so. Carol ann boone is his new love interest and she's now his new sweetheart. She is the person that's by his side. Pretty much she's a groupie Like let's be honest people, she's just a groupie. He does end up marrying her. They end up having a central visit.

Speaker 1 10:39

Contra Conjugal Conjugal.

Speaker 2 10:42

Thank you they do end up having a child together, which I would. I don't know, I would love, I don't know, I would love. I don't know if they already have. I've never seen anything, but I would love for the offspring of tepundi to actually make um some type of podcast episode or some type of documentary to kind of see where they are.

Speaker 1 11:02

Do you know what year this kid was born?

Speaker 2 11:04

all right. So he died in 89.

Speaker 3 11:08

It was soon after that, so it's probably like my age okay I would think I mean and there's a good chance too that he didn't want anything to the child, doesn't want anything to do with it right, I mean exactly, I can imagine they've been quite a spectacle, probably every single place they've went. So I could see that going either way, capitalizing on who you are in your story or being like nope, I'd rather rather totally go the opposite way.

Speaker 1 11:34

Or the? What was her name? Anne?

Speaker 2 11:37

No, no wait, Anne that wrote the book, or Meg, his old girlfriend.

Speaker 1 11:42

The wife.

Speaker 2 11:43

Carol no, so he only has one wife, carol Ann Boone. He had a good girlfriend, meg Anders.

Speaker 1 11:49

Who did he have a kid with Carol? Carol Ann Bo caroline boone. He had a good girlfriend, meg anders. Who did he have a kid with carol? Caroline boone, carol. So if carol didn't tell the offspring who the father was?

Speaker 2 12:00

but she seemed like such a woman that was proud of what he was. She was a big advocate with ted bondy's mother to being like he doesn't deserve the electric chair we need to to have him just have life in a prison somewhere. So I think she was proud of him and who he was, especially when she was coming in. So, like Meg Anders, like she didn't know who Ted Bundy was right, she really was just in love with him as a person he was. And Caroline Boone knew exactly who he was Right because she met him after. He was just in love with him as a person he was and, um, caroline boone knew exactly who he was right because she met him after he was already in jail, I presume and she was okay with it, which is interesting.

Speaker 2 12:39

I mean, there's someone out there for everybody, right, right, but it is interesting but if you already know he's in prison, for you know, I think he he admitted to 30 murders. At that point, you know, there's no like saying, oh, I didn't know. Like she knew exactly what she was getting into.

Speaker 3 12:56

Right, and if he admitted to them, it's not like it's, you know. Oh well, I'm being tried for these. I haven't been convicted yet. I admitted to them, but he never got over Meg.

Speaker 2 13:06

He never got over Meg and I think that was the he missed. He missed his turn is really what happened. So for the murder trials, bundy threw everything, he got at it. He, he got the judge changed. He tried changing public defenders. He wanted to be a certain way coming into the courthouse like I need to present a certain way because I know there's gonna be media out there. Um, he, he threw his two cents into the jury selection. He tried everything and Bundy's mom and his new woman, who we know as Carol Ann Boone, tried convincing him to plead guilty to a lesser plea of second-degree murder in order, obviously, not to get the electric chair, hopefully, and just to get some jail time and maybe there could be a chance of parole time and maybe there could be chance of parole.

Speaker 2 13:59

So florida just executed someone in the electric chair, which probably scared bundy shitless, I'm sure. Um, because he's he knew the florida men business and while the discussion was happening, uh, bundy did not go through with it, so they went through the jury picking. Bundy had a lot to say. They ended up being mostly middle-aged and black people, which I thought was interesting that is very interesting.

Speaker 3 14:18

Were any of his victims black?

Speaker 2 14:20

no, hmm, yes, hmm, uh, okay, I don't know if so. As we know, in our culture, um, there is a lot of disproportionate people of african-american descent or people of color that get convicted of things. So I don't know if he knew that.

Speaker 3 14:41

I mean he was in school for law and he was very intelligent. He knew how to manipulate a situation. It's just interesting to me that you're saying he you know he went through with all these different strategies and he put all this effort into court. And when you think about it, usually you only see that much effort into how do I look and all those things when you're trying to prove yourself innocent. But he was going in saying he was going to plead guilty and he admitted to 30 murders. So it's like what is he trying to?

Speaker 2 15:07

let me back up. So he. So in the end, right the end of his story, he had said he killed okay, so he hasn't done that yet.

Speaker 3 15:15

No, I I was like what is this guy doing? Is this a game?

Speaker 2 15:18

So I was just trying to prove to Rob's point like oh, maybe Caroline Boone didn't know.

Speaker 3 15:22

Like no, she knew what she was getting into.

Speaker 2 15:25

And so, to this point where we are in his story, he's still pleading like I have nothing to do with any of this.

Speaker 3 15:38

Okay, and that makes far more sense. Yes, yeah, sorry, I skipped ahead everybody. I still think it's far fetched that they would have ever, even if it was second degree, like, oh yeah, maybe you'll get out. I mean for the number of women yes, in florida and just in florida.

Speaker 2 15:49

Right, these aren't even the cases that were in washington it's not all encompassing exactly. So there is a list of who the jurors were, but I just want to talk about, like, who they were and what they did for a living and where they stood on the death penalty I think that's an interesting point.

Speaker 3 16:04

So, and here I am quoting everybody.

Speaker 2 16:07

Um. So one was a clothing designer who leaned away from the death penalty. Okay. Another person was a woman who was a bookkeeper um, she was. She sparked laughter in the courtroom during her jury selection, uh, when she failed to recognize ted as the defendant. She had no idea who the guy was, which was in favor with ted, right. Um, there was a worker in the mail room of the miami herald who said he didn't have time to read the papers he helped to put out, so he had nothing to. He knew nothing about it, which I. So, when they were talking about coming up with the jury, I'm like, oh my god, it must have been so hard for such a big people near miami that did not know what was going on. But apparently there are people out there like I have no idea who this guy is. Like, who's ted bundy?

Speaker 3 16:51

well, I mean, and if you think about it, so like I'm a good example of this, but not for true crime stuff, like if it's crime related, I'm interested. But you could ask me about a lot of different things that are in the news and I would be like, no, I don't have. I would fall into that category of no, I don't have time. I'm not as informed as a lot of people would prefer to be, so I can see it if you're really not into that kind of thing. Um, you're not a little on the morbid?

Speaker 2 17:12

side, and if he did do most of his crimes out west, right, and then, just like this, these crimes that happen within basically a weekend, you're probably like I don't know what you're talking about right.

Speaker 1 17:24

Well, in florida were they only prosecuting him for florida crimes, or was this just?

Speaker 3 17:29

florida crime.

Speaker 2 17:30

They could only do for the state that they're in right so this is just for the, the, the woman that was killed in her home and then the, the murders and the um, the bodily abuse that happened to the women in the sorority house so he never got prosecuted for those other crimes out west he already got the death penalty right you know, but sometimes they will like I.

Speaker 3 17:48

I want to say it was lewis lent who. He got charged in one and then it was like with the understanding that you'll never get out of jail in mass. But if for some reason, you were, your ass belongs to new york. Now new york's got fair game on you because you also have a life sentence. He has a life sentence in two states exactly so florida was not giving him up though not at all. They were like this guy dies here.

Speaker 2 18:11

Yes, exactly um, there was one that was a senior project engineer for tex. He said he only read, uh, technical journals, so the newspaper was on his realm. Um, there was another guy who was a high school teacher who was a deacon in his church. Uh. Another woman who was a housewife, um who watched soap operas. Um, there was a woman that was a maid and a churchgoer, um, whose nephew was actually a policeman. Um, another gentleman who was a sports enthusiast who rarely read the newspaper. So I'm not gonna bother you with all of them, but I guess I just wanted to make the point of like these people literally had no idea they were mostly the same ethnicity. When I judged I thought was very interesting when did this take place?

Speaker 1 18:53

the early 80s? The trial?

Speaker 2 18:54

uh, no, late 80s, I say Because it only took them a couple of years to get executed.

Speaker 1 18:59

Which is absolutely crazy, because that would never happen nowadays.

Speaker 3 19:02

No, now it drags out for a long time.

Speaker 1 19:03

Yeah, if this trial took place and we're just going to go broad and say the 80s, yeah, there's no social media, correct, there's no smartphones. There's no smartwatches. There's no news. There's no Internet, there's news that has alerts and stuff like that. So I can say that it's pretty normal that these people, if they're not watching the news or reading the newspaper, they don't know exactly what's going on.

Speaker 3 19:30

Right, right, absolutely, and if they weren't interested in that kind of thing?

Speaker 1 19:34

they were going to skip right past it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 19:36

So Anne Rule, who wrote the book, who was a close friend of Bundy right, she was there for a press during a pretrial and she was shocked by the amount of press that he had. The groupies that he had that you know, set Ted Bundy free and all this shit and and how good Bundy looked she was. She was very shocked by that too, and when he saw her he smiled and winked, which seems like a typical bundy response kind of creepy, kind of okay I guess.

Speaker 2 20:09

So ann introduced herself to carol because she knew like, oh, this is the new love interest. And carol said yes, I've heard of you, and walked away. And when you look, have you seen a picture of carolyn? No, okay, so I'm just going to show courtney everybody, um, the picture that's in the middle of the book of carol.

Trail Name and Bundy's Lock

Speaker 3 20:28

We're going to get my raw reaction, I guess okay, so I won't say anything we'll see if your first impression and my first impression are the same. Oh, um, I mean, she looks like a serial killer herself. Um, she doesn't look like the kind of person I would approach and try to have a conversation with in public right. Also side note because people know I'm weird this is one of those books that feels amazing in your hands doesn't it?

Speaker 3 20:59

yes, it looks like it would be that kind of book but, my goodness, it's so like the. It's soft cover everyone. But it's like floppy and the pages are thin and it has a texture. I gotta give it back before I break it again I will say and rule.

Speaker 2 21:15

The stranger beside me has been one of the best um books I have read on just a biography and on a serial killer itself. It just has been fantastic. I actually still, surprisingly, I'm not done with it, but it's just kind of like the afterward and uh, she added thoughts years later and whatnot.

Speaker 3 21:36

So but but I bet that perspective is going to be very interesting too. And you know, obviously this is our last bundy episode. But, um, I thought my tony costa was going to be one episode two, and then, the more I consumed about him, it became two, just because it was like okay, so maybe there'll be like a snippet, I don't know, maybe it's just me. If not, rob will cut it and we'll just talk about it, you and I but I would be interested to know from someone who knew him what her afterthoughts were years later.

Speaker 2 22:03

Absolutely so anyways. So that happened with Caroline Boone and I don't, I don't think Andrew was very impressed. Not a girl's girl, no, no, no, no, it seemed like like the way she wrote it.

Speaker 3 22:19

it just seemed like she was like yeah, I'm with bundy now.

Speaker 2 22:21

Like okay, fuck you, bitch, she's like I was never with bundy, yeah like yeah, maybe she had the like impression because he maybe spoke highly of ann or something like I think so, because she was like, oh, I wasn't that other girlfriend, like no, there were many before you.

Speaker 2 22:32

Yeah, it wasn't me exactly, yeah so the pre-trial finished quickly and efficiently and the defense was tired and asked to start, uh, the next trial on monday. The judge did not budge. Bundy was pissed. Obviously he wanted a couple extra days to to, you know, research and everything. So on july 17th bundy was not in his seat where he should have been. Everyone's like, where's Bundy?

Speaker 3 22:59

How does a man who's incarcerated end up not where he needs to be is a good question.

Speaker 2 23:03

Well, bundy has this way about him. So 1 am that morning Ted threw an orange yes, an orange at a light outside his cell, throwing a little tantrum. Everybody An orange-sized tantrum so they moved him to a different cell and they checked his old cell, where he came from, and found bits of broken light bulb that he was collecting. Oh, so they went to get him for court in his new cell and he jammed the lock with nothing other than toilet paper and he said they couldn't get him out they couldn't get him out and he said I'll be there when I feel like it I mean, I guess, to his, to his credit.

Speaker 3 23:46

He's already in the cell, he's already being treated like a criminal, so what difference did it really make to him?

Speaker 2 23:50

right, he's like listen, I already know I'm gonna be on death row.

Speaker 3 23:53

If he thought it was gonna give him a prayer of hope. I mean, I guess I I can't say that I would do the same thing, probably because I'm not that smart to realize that I could totally jam a lock with toilet paper but toilet paper. He had multiple plans. I mean, I wonder what he was gonna do with those broken light bulbs, though who was he gonna attack?

Speaker 2 24:09

I mean great, okay, listen they're. They're in incarcerated in a state cell. They can't have sharma in everybody like this must be scott, you're talking 0.5 ply, not even two ply.

Speaker 1 24:24

You're talking 0.5 ply because I don't know about everyone else, I'm picky about my toilet paper if it changes, I have a problem with these buns are particular, yeah, so we get our toilet paper from from amazon, and we use the uh charmin, the, the blue brand, the blue one, and yeah, well, yes, please continue they did not have it, so they sent us the red one, but it was still charmin. But the the blue one is like extra soft, pillow soft. And then the red one is like extra soft, pillow soft. And then the red one is like extra firm, heavy duty, and you can definitely tell the difference.

Speaker 3 24:56

Definitely Is that why my bathroom experience here hasn't been the same. Yeah, probably so do you guys do like the Amazon, like subscribe and save. I haven't ever done that because I'm afraid they're going to send them to me before I need it.

Speaker 1 25:09

So you get an alert, oh, like 10 days before you can change it, and you can either skip it um or you can say yes, I need it so do you do that for a lot of things, or yes, yeah? Yeah, we usually get something every month. Yeah, uh, there's a bunch of stuff, and so you guys don't do like the costco or anything, then we, we do do costco, but we don't do costco for that kind of stuff you shop around?

Speaker 2 25:32

yeah, makes sense yeah but for our toilet paper and the the paper towels the dog food um the cleaners for the toilet.

Speaker 1 25:41

Yeah, there's a spray we use in case kenzie has an accident on the floor which she normally does so we get that like every six months and unless she's been doing it a lot than three months yeah, my deodorant, her deodorant, my deodorant, toothpaste, you know so the stuff that you would normally get at costco, but we just have it on a subscription, so we didn't even have to think about it. And I'm to the point now that we've been doing it so long that I have the months pretty much set up accordingly that's cool when they come.

Speaker 1 26:10

So and if you need it early, you can go on and you can change it, say I need it this month instead of next month, that's cool, I should play around with that I've never tried it before.

Speaker 3 26:19

Yeah, does somebody else hear that screeching?

Speaker 1 26:21

yeah I keep forgetting that it's halloween and there's kids outside trick-or-treating and our windows are open because we live in new england and it's currently 73 degrees out yeah, fuck that shit.

Speaker 2 26:32

Rob's in more north yeah rob's always.

Speaker 3 26:35

In short, I can see all of rob's calves and, my goodness, guys, you are missing out, look at him.

Speaker 2 26:43

He's flexing.

Speaker 1 26:44

He's like, oh my god, I love this so this uh new girl started at white lion oh god, last weekend.

Speaker 2 26:51

What are you me?

Speaker 1 26:52

No, she used to be a Springfield police officer and then decided to do a different career change.

Speaker 2 26:57

Anyways, she came in by serving beer.

Speaker 3 27:00

I wasn't going to say it on the air, okay, sorry, no, no, no, this isn't a new career change.

Speaker 1 27:05

She left the police force in like 2020. She opened up her own business. She's worked in nightclubs before, but she wanted something a little bit less trying to figure out what this lady's got with our husband's caps anyways. So she's like damn, look at your calves, they're huge.

Speaker 3 27:28

I need. I need a social security number. Date of of birth, address, name for this person.

Speaker 1 27:34

You got nothing to worry about. I get complimented. Compliment Cop. Wow, I can't even say the word Compliment.

Speaker 2 27:42

What am I trying to say? Complimented.

Speaker 1 27:43

I get complimented on my calves all the time.

Speaker 3 27:46

Rob's face is cherry red right now.

Speaker 1 27:48

No, it's not, yes it is so you know how I hike. It's cherry red right now. No, it's not. Yes, it is so you know how I hike. Yes, yeah, so my trail name is Cavs and you don't get, you, don't? You don't pick your own trail name. It's given to you by who? By other people on the trail.

Speaker 3 28:02

Just random people walk by you. They're like what up Stinky, and that's your name.

Speaker 1 28:06

Yeah, exactly, and if you don't like it, you can, you know you can pick your name.

Speaker 3 28:10

If you don't like it, you get to change it.

Speaker 1 28:12

No, you can accept it or reject it, and so?

Speaker 3 28:16

in a sense, you get to choose it.

Speaker 1 28:18

It's not like I picked it. Someone said do you have a trail name and I said no, they said you knew trail name is Cavs. I was like I like it, let's go with it.

Speaker 2 28:34

I'm going, I'm gonna get him a t-shirt that says hello, my name is calves, I actually.

Speaker 1 28:35

I actually got him a sticker.

Speaker 2 28:36

It's like a vinyl sticker that's supposed to go, like on his water bottle when he hikes, that says that's from the appalachian trail and my trail name is calves and I had it made for him I haven't seen it yet on anything but I don't know what to put it on.

Speaker 1 28:49

I mean it's too special. I get that way about stickers I'm thinking I might put it on my truck window, but I might wait until I buy a new truck see, I get that.

Speaker 3 28:58

I'm very sentimental about my stickers, like if somebody gives me one you know what do I put it on? Because I don't want to have to throw the thing away or upgrade that thing, and then I don't have the sticker right.

Speaker 2 29:07

Do you know? That's a thing, and it's been like with millennial people where it's like have you kids ever had like stickers that you treasured and you had no idea what to do with them? Like yes.

Speaker 3 29:16

Yeah, you put them in a sticker book. You make a sticker book, that's just for your stickers.

Speaker 2 29:20

But then I'm afraid I'm going to put it in the wrong position or a wrong place and then I want another one.

Speaker 3 29:24

I only have two stickers on my Kindle, them to me for free, and I was like I don't love them, but they'll do all right, can we get back to bundy?

Speaker 2 29:32

no, oh, you want more bundy. Here we go. Enough cows, put your cows away.

Speaker 3 29:36

We're distracted. He's like I know he's like flexing them at me rob.

Speaker 2 29:43

No one wants to see them. Stop trying to make fetch happen.

Speaker 3 29:45

I want to see them, that happened, yeah, mean girls yeah, yes, I know and on one stage we were pink.

Speaker 1 29:52

You go glad coke original mean girls yeah, none of this new shit, not the new one mama's mean girls, doesn't happen, okay, anyways.

Speaker 2 30:02

So, um, anyway. So the judge was pissed right and he he said, all right, well, he's in contempt of court now because he's not fucking up fucking showing when he should. Bundy shows up ranting and raving about his rights. Judge was fair but said dude, you're on trial for murder. What the fuck. There's only so many things you're going to have, like you, shoved toilet paper in the keyhole.

Speaker 3 30:28

After needing to get a new cell because you were throwing oranges like a wild man Oranges, exactly, oh, bundy.

Speaker 2 30:35

So back to the teeth marks. Okay, dr Suvaran made his case how teeth are individualized. He talked to them about having like fingerprints. It's individualized to who you are, because I know if I had took my teeth prints, took your teeth prints, took Rob's teeth prints. They're all different.

Speaker 3 30:52

The shape took your teeth prints, took rob's teeth prints. They're all different. Right, the shape of the teeth, based on dental work, based on where you bite down the pressure points.

Speaker 2 30:56

Yeah, so this was fairly new in the 70s. Right defense described it as half art, half science, which suvaran agreed, he. But he also agreed that to do this it gets better with with experience, right. So he's like I've had enough experience with this. But I can tell you that this is scientifically based, that these are Ted Bundy's teeth marks. So the defense question is the teeth will make the same mark over and over, right? So if I bite you, courtney, over and over and over on your arm, is it still going to make the same impression? It depends right.

Speaker 3 31:32

Well, it depends on how deep I'm biting. It depends on the position of your arm as opposed to the position of my teeth.

Speaker 2 31:39

Right, but I guess if they found out how I bit you right straight on to the side, Could they match all of those to the same person?

Speaker 2 31:47

Yeah, so the doctor was ready for this response. He's like I got this, he trained for it, he got the imprints and tested it on cadavers Creepy, I loved this. The defense wanted clarification and he said he did them on cadavers. And the doctor said I couldn't find live volunteers To bite, to bite on. Anyways, he didn't get any willing live participants, so he used cadavers. So, once again, bundy was not happy with his representation, because that's what he does. It's only good when it's himself. Yes, so the judge granted, he defend himself, with public defenders as advisors, but the judge had never seen the amount of overturn that Bundy had done, which is true because Bundy kept saying no, they're not great, they're not great, I need to do it myself, they're not great.

Speaker 3 32:32

It was strategic, though, because he was getting what he was like. Every time he did that he would get a recess, because whenever they reassigned, Absolutely.

Speaker 2 32:40

So before prosecutors did their closing arguments, bundy brought a witness to the stand to talk about the dental imprints, and Bundy claimed he did not always have the chip in his tooth. In fact, it happened two months after the sorority killings. According to him, he wanted the newspapers from Utah that had pictures of his smile to send photos over to prove, but no one budged on it, which I think that was far-fetched. I don't think he would have gotten it done anyways. I don't think he would have gotten it done anyways.

Ted Bundy's Victims and Execution

Speaker 3 33:13

I don't think he would have proved anything. And depending on where the chip in your tooth was, because when you think about it, chips are often on the facial part of it, like the front of the tooth Right. So how much of a difference would it have really made?

Speaker 2 33:28

Again, I think to your point. He was trying to have it delayed.

Speaker 3 33:30

Yeah, it's really and exactly what you said. What I one of the most interesting parts about his kind of psyche for me is just that that need for control. But he seems so docile but it's all about control. It's like he wants to have control but he doesn't want it to look like he wants to have control so july 23rd, less than seven hours.

Speaker 2 33:49

The jury finds him guilty of all charges and I'm going to read, and here I am quoting it is ordered that you be put to death by a current of electricity. That the current be passed through your body until you are dead.

Speaker 3 34:03

So the reason I quoted that is because I can't imagine standing there and be like you are going to die by electrocution and then they had to really clarify by saying and we are going to put that electricity through you I'm sure you're just like they really got to drive that point home. They were like we really need him to understand that you were going to die because of this yes, it's very specific.

Speaker 3 34:24

It is very specific. I wonder if legally, there's some and if anybody, if anyone of the wanders knows right in test. Um, I wonder if there's like a legal reasoning why they of the wanders knows right into us. Um, I wonder if there's like a legal reasoning why they have to say it in such a specific way so I am going to list off um and rule.

Speaker 2 34:40

Has this list in here about talking about the dead or who are gone, um, who may still be alive after, uh, their incidents with Bundy? So I'm just going to read them off again, just as to reinstate, like who these victims were. So please bear with. Catherine Mary Devine is dead. Brenda Baker is dead. Joni Lenz is alive. Linda Ann Healy is dead. Donna Manson is gone. Susan Rancourt is dead. Roberta Kathleen Parks is dead. Brenda Ball is dead. Georgia Ann Hawkins is gone.

Speaker 2 35:18

Janice Ott is dead. Denise Naslund is dead. Melissa Smith is dead. Laura Am is dead. Carol Duran Swenson is alive. Debbie Kent is gone. Karen Campbell is dead. Julie Cunningham is gone. Denise Oliverson is gone. Shelly Robertson is dead. Melanie Cooley is dead. Lisa Levy is dead. Margaret Bowman is dead. Karen Chandler is alive. Kathy Kleiner DeShields is alive. Cheryl Thomas is alive. Kimberly Leach is dead. Karen chandler is alive. Kathy kleiner de shield's alive. Cheryl thomas is alive. Kimberly leach is dead. So I guess I just wanted to read those because I know we talked about a lot of the victims, but I just think having like a solid reminder of the people that were victimized by this man is important, that's a heavy list too.

Speaker 3 36:09

I mean, I think it is. I could feel the mood while we were all sitting here and we're all kind of just. I mean, rob and I were listening while hannah was reading it and it's that's really heavy, you know heavy and I know we want to really make sure that we're pivoting to telling the stories but also making sure that we're victim focused too, where we're not supporting the person who did it. Um, we want to make sure that you know the the victims and their families always feel like they were represented too.

Speaker 2 36:32

And when she says they're gone, I have a feeling it's because they haven't found their remains. But they are not with their families right now.

Speaker 1 36:39

That was going to be my question what's the difference between dead and gone?

Speaker 3 36:42

Yeah, I just don't think their remains have been found which is so sad too, because I think about those poor families that you know you really gone really puts you in that piece where you don't like. We talked about it with lynn burdick. The family has no ability to move on. They're stuck in this position where they're like moving do I move forward or do I stay here? And I just really feel for those families. I think that's probably harder than having someone be be dead.

Speaker 2 37:06

There's the not knowing so january 24th 1989, ted bundy was executed around 7 am and he was executed by electrocution um. I guess they called the electrocution electrocution chair in florida old sparky I've heard that.

Justice, Punishment, and Redemption

Speaker 2 37:25

I've heard them um, but there were people waiting outside the prison telling him to burn ted bundy burn, and people were very excited to see him gone. Um, ten buddy. Ted bundy was was definitely a menace. He was a man that did a lot of harm in society and behaviorally speaking. I would have loved to see this man saved and somehow maybe not released into society, but be able to do things to help society, but I just don't. You know, the resources weren't there and it was a different time. It's sad because he seemed like a man with potential, but it didn't happen. So that's the story of Ted Bundy.

Speaker 3 38:08

That was really well done, Hannah.

Speaker 2 38:09

Thank you Sorry guys. It was so long, but people are going to miss you in Bundy. That was really well done, hannah. Thank you, sorry guys.

Speaker 3 38:12

It was so long, but people are going to miss you in Bundy, I think, Maybe not.

Speaker 2 38:18

Rob, but everybody else. I think it's a solemn time in history, and so I know my mom will be happy that it's done and over with, because it was a time that she was alive and very much aware, and a young woman herself, so, um, I can't imagine how, how it was back then yeah, I'm sure that that makes it very raw yeah, yeah. But and then I think like, how did we do a disservice to bundy? How could we have caught it earlier?

Speaker 3 38:46

in his life, the questions. I feel like you and I are always sitting here thinking about behavior wise when we're done talking about somebody. I mean I know with tony costa he lived, he lived in my head because I'm like, wow, all the things they missed. Trauma-based sexual assault, all those things, yep, um. And I think the farther we kind of get with the way we look at mental health things now with our field especially like now, we're seeing these behavioral things kind of earlier and we're intervening on them, hopefully before any of those other things could happen and I.

Speaker 2 39:13

I do not agree with um the death penalty, which I think is something we talked about in our episode with uh rob's cousin patrick. I don't agree with the death penalty. Should he have been punished? Absolutely I don't think we should release him to society thousand percent no at all, but there has to be another alternative there has to be.

Speaker 3 39:34

I don't know what it would be, but I feel the same way, because what?

Speaker 2 39:36

a terrible way to die. I'm not saying that these women didn't die terribly I. I don't want to lose focus on that, but what a terrible way to die I think I get really focused on.

Speaker 3 39:48

We're telling people that killing someone is wrong and everybody has their different reasons why they feel like that's the truth, or you know, I don't think anybody doesn't think that's the truth and then our way of getting justice for that is not doing better while we punish you, it's we're going to do the same thing to you that we just made a spectacle out of say to me, like human life has to be worth something, and and the fact that the law is so entangled with politics, and then that's in charge of what's really deciding, you know?

Speaker 1 40:15

I don't know. It just doesn't feel good to me, and nevermind the falsely accused.

Speaker 3 40:18

Right, we talked about that a great extent Like.

Speaker 1 40:20

I mean, there's this one case right now in Texas where the gentleman was sentenced to death because of a shaken baby syndrome on their child 20 years ago and they were supposed to be sentenced to death like a week ago and it was held off because there's new evidence to show that shaken baby syndrome is not actually a thing and there was underlying issues to of.

Speaker 3 40:52

Like begin with, I was just gonna say right, yeah, infant death syndrome is a big one too yeah, so there, there's people out there trying to get this guy off and it's in texas. Um, they're trying to get him released because, uh, even the detectives on the case is saying that this guy is innocent imagine that 20 years, dude, yeah, and then like for something you didn't do and think about, I mean beyond, just like how do you readapt back? But like 20 years mentally, when you know you didn't do the thing you just lost your child right.

Speaker 3 41:25

You didn't do anything wrong, you just lost your child. And now you're thrown into a cell and treated like this person. That person really has like a very low chance, without the right interventions, of ever being typical again.

Speaker 1 41:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2 41:38

Yeah, that's a huge disservice we just did to that man, huge disservice. And there's so many issues with our legal system and also with our mental health system, which I know we've talked about, yeah, mental health system, which I know we've talked about, yeah, and even if, like, let's say, ted bundy was thrown into a mental asylum, there's so many other problems that probably would have risen, especially in like the late 80s, early 90s, that have to be fixed.

Speaker 3 42:02

Yes, have to be fixed, and I'm glad that there's so much coming out with, you know, trauma assumed and and stuff like that, but still, it's just, it's broken, it's a system that's broken the general consensus that I find too, when I'm talking to a lot of people about from different generations like I'll talk to people in my family um, and it seems to be like a lot of people think, oh well, somebody accused that person, especially when it comes to kids, right, somebody accused that person of killing an infant. Well, they don't deserve anything good in life.

Morality, Mental Health, and Justice

Speaker 3 42:33

Well, they were just accused, I mean if they're innocent now you're taking somebody who who needs mental health and you're just the people who go to jail. They're not getting any of that right so what's? What's really the point? We're just gonna lock you up, leave you in there. We're not gonna help treat you right. There has to be some line where, like, a basic human need also becomes medical, and that includes mental health. You know, mental health is not extra, it's not a you know it's a human right, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2 43:02

And even talking about convicted, sometimes people that are convicted aren't really in the wrong. They they're, they're innocent.

Speaker 3 43:10

And what if they had a severe mental health situation? Right, how do you? You know we talk about an ABA parametric versus compartment analysis. Oh God, we're going back to grad school here Everybody. I mean you got to take it apart right component, each separate piece, and that's how you figure out what the root cause of something is. You have to look at the whole. You can't just say, well, that person's evil because they did this one thing. What's the source of that? You know?

Speaker 2 43:36

so I guess like I could be evil because I lied to my mother at one point that that makes me evil, for the right person, it would right. So like, like, as a small, small example right, I'm evil because I lied to my or I'm evil because I ran a red light, not that I did everybody, I'm just saying except when she's listening to smut.

Speaker 3 43:55

That one time, good lord you heard it on that.

Speaker 3 44:00

That's a whole other thing um, it's just very, it's very interesting to me. I actually took a class in undergrad that was about prisons and the law, um, and everybody has their own sense of morality. So, like you say, running a red light, I'm like whatever, I'm sure there's somebody out there who's like nope, somebody who runs a red light and because of that person's history of things that's happened to them, they put a higher value of of that person's evil on that. I mean, murder is a pretty big one, I would say. People who kill other people are usually considered morally wrong to everybody.

Speaker 3 44:33

But you know, to me someone who steals, ok, my first question is well, what did they steal? Because a man stealing a television is very different to me than a mother stealing a loaf of bread for her children, correct, and I will. I will die on that hill. There is a difference in a thief to me, morally, between those two situations, absolutely and I also think, uh, based on the pigmentation of your skin.

Speaker 2 44:56

So if me, as a white woman, like, oh shit, I'm late for work, I run a red light, I'm more likely not to get a ticket. But if you have a gentleman of a different pigmentation that's either african-american or hispanic descent, yeah, and they run a red light because they have to, probably because they're more likely to get a ticket.

Speaker 3 45:15

And age plays a role in it too, because I've definitely seen situations where, like middle-aged people like ourselves, um might do something right and it's it's not a big deal at all. Wait a minute. You say middle age we're middle age whereas young people, like you know, a young kid runs a red light they're gonna pull them over they're gonna make an example, but what are you doing?

Speaker 2 45:36

you smoke a pot with your friends like yeah, yep, are we ready for the card? Sorry, we got some Michael Myerson on here.

Speaker 1 46:00

Pick a card, any card.

Speaker 2 46:02

Myerson and Michael Myers. I meant Michael Myers. I love Halloween. Michael Myers is like my favorite. All right, so we got David Martins and he is the five of diamonds.

Speaker 3 46:23

I was like spades. Nope, it's diamonds. I was like spades.

Speaker 2 46:27

Nope, it's diamonds. All right. So on Thursday, august 12, 2010, at approximately 9.28 pm, the victim was shot in the area of 531 Adams Street in Dorchester. If you have any info about this case, please call 1-855-MASOLVE. And again, this is the Five of Diamonds and David Martins. I feel like a lot of these are happening out east In Dorchester, boston.

Speaker 3 46:51

I mean Dorchester's a very prominent crime area.

Speaker 1 46:57

It just breaks my heart. I'm going to make up this number, but, like 75, 80% of the population in Massachusetts lives east of Worcester.

Speaker 3 47:07

That's true also.

Speaker 2 47:08

Because our big cities are Boston, worcester and then Springfield right, yeah, and Cambridge is number four.

Speaker 3 47:15

Yeah, so yeah, most of them are out that way, and there's a lot more. It's just population density wise too.

Speaker 1 47:19

Definitely yeah.

Speaker 3 47:20

You get them all closed in tight too, it just breaks it I can't. Imagine every one of these cards.

Speaker 2 47:25

I feel sad. I think we did end up buying uh different cards online yeah, did you get connecticut?

Speaker 3 47:32

I think I did, but I will check.

Speaker 2 47:33

Concussion problems yeah but no, but I thought you bought something no.

Speaker 1 47:37

Courtney said she was gonna buy it was me.

Speaker 3 47:39

I just don't remember if I clicked purchase on them or not, so I'll do that if not, we still have plenty of cards left. How many are we down to?

Speaker 1 47:45

I don't know which is also sad we have plenty of cards to go through.

Speaker 2 47:49

That just is not what I want to hear.

Speaker 1 47:50

Well, there's 52 cards in a deck, I know.

Speaker 3 47:53

But the fact that we can fill one deck is kind of sad, yeah, considering.

Speaker 2 48:05

I just want going through our bundy thing together.

Speaker 3 48:06

I think I will take a break, I think, um no, a break from just doing big series. I was like is she breaking up with me? Congrats, you're a new co-host. Now I'm gonna leave you by yourself.

Speaker 2 48:13

I want to do manson, I want to do um, you know the fldf we're gonna do a couple of flds with uh, warren jeffs. That's what I'm thinking of, um, but I think I'm going to do some smaller ones right now. Thank you, courtney, for dealing with my Bundy obsession.

Speaker 3 48:30

Of course, thank you for dealing with me breathing into the mic heavily. I did that as an after effect, just for Halloween everybody.

Speaker 2 48:42

I hope you all had a great Halloween, a great Samhain, and we'll see.

Speaker 1 48:44

You all had a great Halloween, a great Samhain, and we'll see you all next time yeah, next time we have an episode that falls on Halloween, we should probably have a Halloween special. But your episode came out yesterday, because today is Thursday, I think well, depending on how Courtney feels she's going to do an episode?

Speaker 3 49:05

Yeah, I was going to do a.

Speaker 2 49:06

Halloween. Fact one Listen, we all have full-time jobs, okay. Two well, actually all three of us own a company.

Speaker 1 49:16

Did we say bye yet? No, okay.

Speaker 2 49:20

Can we have Michael Myers come back on for the goodbye? Alright, I'm saying goodbye. Sorry, Naira Suckers.

Speaker 1 49:33

Thank you, Hannah, for a great episode.

Wicked Wanderings Community Appreciation

Speaker 2 49:36

Happy haunting. It feels fitting to finish Bundy on Halloween it does. Happy Samhain, love you all. Bye Courtney, bye Rob, bye, bye Wanderers. Thanks for listening today. Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, hannah, and co-hosted by me.

Speaker 1 49:54

Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Speaker 2 49:57

Music by Sasha M. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering.