Wicked Wanderings
Delve into the enigmatic realms of the mysterious, unearth tales of haunting encounters, explore the chilling depths of true crime, and unravel the threads of the unexplained. Join us on the Wicked Wanderings Podcast for a riveting journey through the realms of the unknown and the haunting mysteries that linger in the shadows.
Wicked Wanderings
Ep. 71: The Green River Killer
Journey into the chilling mindset of Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, as we unravel the complexities of his early life, relationships, and the societal perceptions that allowed him to evade justice for so long. Our discussion brings to light the crucial interplay of nature versus nurture, the stigmatization of victims, and the psychological factors that culminated in Ridgeway's horrific crimes.
• Unpacking the psychological impact of Ridgeway's childhood
• The complex influences of maternal relationships on male behavior
• Discussing societal attitudes toward sex workers as victims
• Exploring the cunning methods employed by Ridgeway to evade law enforcement
• Reflecting on the advancements in forensic science that led to his capture
• Addressing the broader implications for society regarding violence and justice
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
Wicked Wanderings is a Production of Studio 113
and we're live oh boy, do I have shenanigans?
Courtney:yay, that's perfect. We love shenanigans. I almost wish we had been recording trying to figure out hannah's mic, so we'll play and probably break his soundboard okay.
Hannah:Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.
Courtney:Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us.
Hannah:This is Wicked Wanderings, hi Courtney, hi Hannah, and we have a special guest.
Courtney:Drumroll please.
Hannah:Cousin Mark In the flesh sort of In the virtual flesh.
Courtney:That sounds weird. In the voice sounds better. You're right, cousin Mark, in the voice, in the voice.
Hannah:Also, I feel like we need to put out there that we are sorry. We have not had an episode in two or three weeks.
Courtney:It's been a few weeks, guys. We've had some. I'll say I had some family matters come up in the beginning of January. I'll take ownership of that one personally. We're back. We did not go anywhere, we didn't stop. We didn't go anywhere, we didn't stop.
Hannah:No, alright, cousin Mark, who is the serial killer you want to talk about, because I'm very excited for this?
Cousin Marc:Well, we have Gary Leon Ridgeway, better known as the Green River Killer.
Courtney:And there's messed up, and then there's like Gary Ridgeway- messed up, that's what. I said to Hannah the other day. I'm like there's like yeah, that guy's pretty jacked up, and then there's this guy, and then there's this guy, mr Low IQ and avoided the police for 20 years. Yeah.
Cousin Marc:Imagine that.
Courtney:And mommy issues. You got to throw that in the pot. Always a good mommy issue. Lots and lots of mommy issues.
Cousin Marc:Freud talks a lot about that when he was doing things like this. Yeah, he was talking about how boys have. Oh, what's the word?
Courtney:I'm looking for the Oedipus Complex.
Cousin Marc:Yes, the Oedipus Complex, which their first love is their mother.
Hannah:Mm-hmm.
Cousin Marc:Yeah.
Courtney:He talks about that and how it progresses fast for him.
Cousin Marc:Oh yeah. Well, one of the things he says is that the husband, the father, needs to establish dominance. This is my wife, I'm hers, she's not going to anybody else and you can't have her. But Gary's father wasn't like that. Gary's father was very weak, Never showed, never showed any. You know male dominance in the family.
Hannah:You know I have to say something because I apologize. I'm interrupting here. I have to bring up, you know, ted Bundy here.
Courtney:It's just a matter of time how many minutes we got.
Hannah:Six minutes and 41 seconds, rob, and here's bundy, but cousin mark's all right, I'm gonna talk about him too cousin mark says something really interesting about how mothers are usually the son's first love type of thing, and I'm thinking of ted bundy and how he thought his grandmother was his mother and I feel like that's a whole nother oh, it's a whole nother layer of things that fucked him up.
Courtney:I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure.
Cousin Marc:Well, that's also a nurture thing. Yeah, yes, which?
Hannah:we talked about yeah.
Cousin Marc:Nature or nurture, but that's the nurture thing. Yeah, he was Bundy, was deceived by women and then he targeted women. Yeah, you know, and it was the same thing with Bridgeway, 100% Bridgeway. As we get into him, you're going to notice how resentful he was towards his mother but also loved her at the same time, because that was the first woman he's ever known, right.
Courtney:And now.
Cousin Marc:Edmund Kemper was the same way. His mother was brutal, brutal to him. Edmund Kemper was the co-ed killer out in.
Courtney:California.
Cousin Marc:That guy like 6'9", almost 350 pounds, oh, big boy. He wasn't allowed to try out for the police department because he was too big. But anyways, he was too big so they wouldn't let him join the academy. You're too big, sir, but anyways, what? Yeah, he was too big so they wouldn't let him join the academy.
Courtney:You're too big, sir. You can't sit here. You literally don't fit. You can't fit in the cruiser, you can't be a police officer.
Hannah:I thought bigger the better in the police department. But what do I know? Police brutality, yeah.
Cousin Marc:For him. His mother was very domineering, but he also had an iq of like 160, so he was extremely smart and, um, he's another one that you know we can get into at some point, you know, in a future. Gary Ridgway wasn't very smart according to IQ levels and just had major issues with his mother. Growing up he was a bedwetter.
Hannah:Oh.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, and he did that into his early teens. Yeah, and his mother wasn't easy on him. His mother, would you know, degrade him in front of his siblings and she would physically hand wash him and in her eyes, scrub the dirty parts.
Courtney:Oh, there was a lot of, I think, along with how you were saying, mark, that the dad was supposed to be domineering, he was supposed to be commanding that respect. I feel like his mom sort of filled that role of being the dominant one in the house, which almost caused like a power dynamic too, because she would I read the same thing she would, like you were saying, wash the dirty parts. And there was a lot of sexual abuse that happened right there. Because of that, I mean that alone is demeaning.
Cousin Marc:She worked at a tailor store and she would have to measure the men's suits and she would come back and tell gary about how, you know, she would get the men to have an erection, you know, and what they smelled like. And, oh god, yeah, she gave him all these, all these stories that she went through to her son and that's, and that's how he started to learn about sex.
Courtney:That was what his whole basis of like sexual maturity and physical relation to women, and then when you think about it, I mean physical relation to women and emotional relationship to women. She was physically and emotionally abusive. So there's already this power dynamic of like women here and Gary here. So it really doesn't surprise me, especially with the trend of people he goes after. Once you start talking about his killings, it makes 100 sense that that's who he targeted.
Hannah:But once I heard that I was like oh bingo, there we go and people don't normally think of women as special sexual abusers, like abusers. That doesn't really not something that people cross my. You hear a sexual abuse, you're like what man did it? It's rare that women are doing it, but they do, yeah, they do do it, I feel like a lot of times to children too.
Courtney:I think a lot of the times that I hear about women as the perpetrator, it's high school boys who are. You know, they don't. They know it's wrong, but they don't think about it that way because they're horned up and they're like well you know, she's just a teacher, she's an older woman, right Exactly. Or you hear about it like younger boys because they're like okay, well, no one's going to question that a mom washing her son in the bathtub especially at that time, was abusive Right.
Courtney:Exactly. You don't know. You're never going to question a mom and how she washes her child.
Cousin Marc:Like that's just not something that's going. Back then you didn't Right.
Courtney:Now, you do Now in this society.
Cousin Marc:You're definitely going to question that.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, a hundred percent You're right, yeah, which is which is understandable, because some things you you shouldn't do to a child. You know you should wash your child if they're small enough, but you know not the way that she was where she was embarrassing him, right, and making him feel dirty. Yeah, a line was crossed, yeah, but again, that's why I brought up kemper. Kemper's mother was the same way, because he was so big, she was afraid that he was going to do something to his sister, so she'd make. She'd make him sleep in the basement while everybody else is upstairs in the bedroom. So nothing happened.
Hannah:And you wonder why these men have these like power complex over these women.
Courtney:There's always a reason. There's always a reason Just.
Cousin Marc:Well, that's why I mean you go back to the nature or nurture thing. You know, when kids are very impressionable, that's the things that they relate to, what they see.
Courtney:A hundred percent impressionable. That's the things that they relate to, what they see. 100 and they don't even realize they're doing it. Our young years are so formidable.
Cousin Marc:People don't realize that their beliefs and things they take on what their family believes yeah, and that's why ridgeway had such a hard time, because his in his mind, some of his first sexual fantasies were violent scrubbing, so violent sex comes into that thought process so I know me and you.
Hannah:We had a conversation earlier this week about nature and nurture, and so remind me if your belief is that most of this is nurture. Like they might have had a switch nature speaking in their minds, but it was the nurture that really kind of switched it on. Am I right? Is?
Cousin Marc:that what you're thinking.
Cousin Marc:Yes, I think it's just the individual. You know how the individual perceives what they're looking at, you know, because Bundy was lied to by the two most important women in his life, his mother and his grandmother, but he thought was sister and mother. That's a pretty big lie, you know. And there's other serial killers that have had the same issues. You know Ridgway wasn't lied to, he was just pushed in a direction of what sex should be right. So he, you know that was what formed in his brain at a very young age right, and most of his victims were sex workers because they were vulnerable, easy targets yeah, and he definitely like.
Courtney:I believe I can't remember. I've read a couple of different things about him, so I can't remember the exact source on this. I apologize, but I believe he was even directly quoted saying things like just not believing in sex workers, not believing that they were real people and things. He didn't believe that they were worth anything because of what they did. He viewed them as dirty.
Cousin Marc:He actually told the police. I thought I was doing you a favor.
Courtney:Yeah, wow, and that's 100% the nurture and the behavioral piece in my mind too. I'm with Mark on that one. I think somebody kept telling him he was dirty and he was bad. And now he's looking at these other people who are, in his mind, dirty and bad and he's like they don't deserve to be here, just like how I didn't deserve these other things too. It makes 100% sense that he's like they're a woman and they're dirty and they're they're these different things because he first, when he first started killing, he would.
Cousin Marc:He would choke him from behind. You know, put him in like a, put him in a chokehold and uh, that was how he killed the first. Like three or four of them. And just to degrade them more, he would. When he went to throw them in the water, he was stuffing things inside of them.
Hannah:Yeah, so was he soliciting them first, or was he just finding them and then going behind?
Courtney:Was it kind of like hey, I want your services? He was going and trying to start a business transaction and taking them Okay, Sometimes in front of his son.
Cousin Marc:Because that was the easiest way to get them in the vehicles. Yeah, okay, okay, because they willingly get in with you and no one's paying attention to them, right, except one that he did pick up. Her boyfriend, pimp, was behind her and was following, but he got stopped at a light and Ridgeway drove off and he couldn't find where the car went. And Ridgway drove off and he couldn't find where the car went. So the next day the father of the woman that Ridgway had and the boyfriend went out driving and they actually found his truck in the driveway. So they called the police. The police came in, looked at Ridgway and he was calm as could be. No one's here, blah, blah, blah, and they had no reason to question him any further. So they just they let him go. They're like he's, she's not in there. You know you guys are probably wrong and you know just one of the ways Ridgeway got away from being interviewed by police.
Courtney:Right, and I think also the low intelligence. I mean that you can tell when you're talking to someone if low intelligence. I mean that you can tell when you're talking to someone if his intelligence really presented as low as it was on the IQ scale. I'm sure there was a lot of overlooking him. Simply, oh, this guy couldn't he. He's more in that time, oh, he's more simple than that. He couldn't get this done and he was never bringing them to his house. So it was kind of genius when you think about it. He was never to him, except his car. Was this?
Cousin Marc:I'm sorry, 70s, 60s, uh, the 82, oh 82, oh, okay, so 82 so we're, we're just slowly getting into you know, the dna and testing for things, but it's still in its infancy at that point. So they really couldn't. You know, they could do swabs and you, you know, check for you know secretor, non-secretor and whatnot. But that's the other thing. It's hard to prove with a prostitute who was the last one to have sex with them, because it could have been, you know, if you get semen samples, it could be the fact that, yeah, that I did have sex with that prostitute but I walked away from her.
Courtney:Right, yeah, right. And at that time there was a crime in it, but it wasn't wasn't murder. We weren't talking about murder. It wasn't murder, right, right.
Cousin Marc:Just because someone's unfaithful to their wife and they go to a prostitute doesn't make them a murderer. Right, right, right.
Hannah:And also he could have had sex with her.
Courtney:Right.
Hannah:Like it just happens to be that they never had sex.
Courtney:I also believe that he he wasn't. It doesn't seem like, from the reading that I had done, that he often used vaginal sex. It seemed like he was more of like an oral sex.
Hannah:Yeah.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, then again, a lot of times it was from behind, right, and that was how he grabbed them. So once he figured out that, as he was choking them, the women would scratch him, he would. Then, once he got scratched, he would actually clip their fingernails. Oh, he was tidy, so there was no skin, but after he was getting scratched he started to use a ligature Right, Just like here. He didn't have to get damaged and then have to explain scratches and whatnot.
Hannah:But that's like a logical progression for someone, so it boggles my mind that he his IQ was as low as it was.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, I mean because the other thing he did was he would go to bus stations and grab care from the toilets and plant it around. He would grab cigarette butts, so they all thought he smoked Right.
Courtney:It almost makes me wonder if he was like a crime buff or something he was like into the pamphlets from hotels yeah and leave them to make it look like he was a traveler or a guest from that hotel, and then they'd be down that rabbit hole looking for him and he's just like at his house one street down, just chilling and cory, you mentioned a son.
Hannah:I believe he had a son. He was he married.
Cousin Marc:I believe it was math he was married once, right?
Courtney:or was it twice, three times? Oh jesus, oh, I missed. I missed a wife somewhere in there.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, uh, the first one he married in 78 okay, oh, okay so they divorced and I think I'm pretty sure they divorced in 79.
Courtney:I have a whole bunch of notes I was gonna say the first one wasn't very long. I remember that.
Cousin Marc:It was two years. So Matthew was not from two years.
Courtney:No, I want to say Matthew was from his second.
Cousin Marc:Yes, I believe so. There was a couple of times that he had his son in the vehicle when he went and picked up a girl.
Hannah:Yeah, they asked him in an interview would you have killed your son, if he saw it and he said I don't think so. He didn't say no, I don't think so. He said he, if he had.
Courtney:If his son saw something, he would have had to kill him. Oh, he did say my god, it's ridiculous. How old was the kid?
Cousin Marc:young he was not that old. Oh yeah, the women would ask to see his id. So he'd pull his id, out his name, and in his wallet would be pictures of his son. So it put the women at ease because you know.
Courtney:Oh, he's a dad. The father's not going to do anything yeah.
Cousin Marc:And then there were other times where his son wasn't with him but he had toys in the car. So you know, jeez, yeah, but see, that's the thing you know, he was so smart in evading the police. Yeah, with all this little things that you know, you probably never would have thought of.
Courtney:Yeah, he got good at it because he wasn't doing just one thing all the time. He really like diversified what he was doing along the way, but they always knew he was. I mean, they hypothesized before they caught him that he was just one person. And even all the all the prostitutes at the time that they were able to get you know, data from to to write a book I think it was ann rules book. It was like, yeah, you know, I kind of thought about it when I got in the car with somebody but this is how I pay my bills and so I didn't think they were the. You know, I didn't think he was the killer and I'm like, how do you just go off a hunch when you know this guy's out here killing prostitutes? And you're just like, I got in the car with him but I didn't think it was him, so it was fine, and I'm like, oh my gosh but that's.
Cousin Marc:But that's what it is. You know, the monster's not gonna look like a monster right, yeah, so how old was he when he started? Well, he was born in 49, so late 20s when he started early 30s. So he started pretty early. He did His thing. Was I wanted to kill as many prostitutes as I possibly could, mission-based, yeah, which is why I don't understand why he doesn't get as much publicity as the bigger ones.
Courtney:It's true, because he had a lot of victims, his victim count was very high. It was very high.
Cousin Marc:It was the highest in the U? S at that time.
Courtney:It was in the forties Forties.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, I don't think anybody's. I mean Pinkton, willie Pinkton gross. He was active at this time too.
Courtney:That's true. Yeah, that's true, yeah.
Cousin Marc:And he was in Vancouver, so they were like really close to each other at the time. Huh, yeah, and that was one of the things Ridgeway did. Ridgeway would bring bring victims to different places to try to throw off the the trail, mm.
Hannah:Yeah, pinkton.
Courtney:Yeah, His name, just like he's one of those people. And I have a weird thing about only a few things when it comes to serial killers, but cannibalism is one of my things. And then Pinkton just gives me the skeeves, Cause I don't know what. I don't know. How about necrophilia. I mean, yeah, I don't love the idea of necrophilia, but I don't know why cannibalism is like like.
Cousin Marc:I can't with cannibalism, that's well, that's one of the things Ridgway did, after he dumped the first, and then would dump the bodies off the side of the road and whatnot in what he called clusters. Yeah, so he'd use the same dump site and you know there were times where, if he didn't have the time to go pick up a prostitute, he'd go back to these dump sites, visit and have sex with the court.
Courtney:Oh my God, and there was at least one, where it was like this person was decomposing, like I'm not talking about, like she was there from yesterday, like some left out, like she was there a long ass time and decomposing, and he was like oh, my God.
Cousin Marc:I finally had to stop when I had to spread the bugs away.
Hannah:Oh God, yep. How's that waffle feeling in your stomach right now?
Courtney:I just had a waffle before we hopped on here. I'm glad I'm not trying to eat the waffle right now, but yeah, yeah, he's definitely there. You can see sometimes where you're like he's so calculated, maybe there wasn't something wrong, like maybe he just had bad urges. And then you hear things like that. You're like, nope, there's got to be something disconnected in there, because who in their right mind I mean humans are sex-driven creatures? But who in their right mind, like I don't have time to pick up a prostitute today, I'm just gonna go find this dead body with bugs on it. Oh yeah, it was around the corner back over there. No disrespect, disrespect to the victims. I'm very sorry, that was insensitive, but just the mentality of him is very like. You think you've got him pegged and then you're like what the fuck? Oh no, that's why I said there's messed up. And then there's this guy. Like he's just got so much to him. Do like a full psychoanalysis on all of this. So is he?
Hannah:still alive. I mean, we can almost get half that we can't still talk to him mark's like get the van, we're going road trip, road trip, wait, where is he?
Courtney:I don't know that answer.
Cousin Marc:Uh, he's in um washington oh, washington state okay, yeah, washington state yeah, but again I'm gonna bring up Bundy.
Courtney:Bundy, that's number two 2618, Rob.
Cousin Marc:When Bundy was incarcerated in Florida. After the Florida killings the detectives from Washington came down and interviewed Bundy to get perspective on a psychopath serial killer. A psychopath serial killer. And he told them you know that this guy is going to revisit his clusters. And he said if you find a fresh kill you should stake it out and see if he shows back up. He did show back up. They just didn't have the right ones when he did show up. But then once there were too many there he would pick another spot and go to another one.
Courtney:Well, bundy knew, because Bundy favored dumping sites too. He did. Bundy knew because he had his own favored spots. So I'm sure he and it's funny too, because that's one of those things where I can imagine, as an investigator or a police officer, you're like, okay, I'm getting this information and let's consider the source of who it's coming from but also like they're kind of an expert in their field, like if you've got someone behind bars, like, yes, they're a criminal. Yes, what they do is wrong, yes, they might need some kind of psychotic medication and things but they also aren't like right.
Courtney:They are an expert in their field, so why would you not take their opinion and at least go try what do they have to?
Cousin Marc:gain or lose right from being in there, like like he was dead, somebody that thinks that way right, exactly that's what I mean because a normal brain doesn't think that exactly right, exactly.
Courtney:You just keep coming up with short straws.
Cousin Marc:At that point yeah, or they do think that way, but they were raised correctly and they go yeah, this is wrong, you know, let's not do that right, if I do that, I'll end up behind bars and I don't look good in orange.
Courtney:So exactly was?
Hannah:the police actually interested at first in these women that were dying because of their profession? Because I know with picton they weren't really interested at first. They're like all right, another prostitute we found. Okay, like let's move on. Were they like actually interested?
Courtney:in. I didn't get the impression that the police were dismissive of them.
Cousin Marc:It started out real slow because they didn't like any case, they didn't think they had a serial killer on them. Right, right.
Courtney:They were just like oh, a prostitute went missing, that's not unheard of, that's yes. She could have run away, she could have started a new life, all that same stuff.
Cousin Marc:And that's the thing with prostitutes. You know they're adults, they can go off the grid for as long as they want. It doesn't mean they're dead, right. It doesn't mean they're missing. They could have just went south.
Courtney:And three-quarters of the time they're not using their real identity, which makes it even harder.
Cousin Marc:Because the people who are.
Courtney:You know? Even the pimp might be reporting. Okay, hannah is missing, but like, how do we know? Hannah is her real name. She could be using an alias.
Hannah:Right, and then you got the human trafficking piece too.
Courtney:Right.
Hannah:Their bodies can be moved wherever they want Right Because to pimps and everybody else. They're a piece of property and free will. Yeah, I could just be like. You know what I'm all done with this.
Courtney:I'm just going to vanish, right. So that's always a the right to be able to open the case. However, when it's an adult and they're like well, there's no foul play. That person is allowed to just disappear. You and I are both allowed to just say you know what? Fuck this place.
Hannah:I'm out and just get up and leave our life and we're free Roman adults.
Courtney:We're allowed to do that, but we lose so much valuable time because of that human right, which is both a blessing and kind of in a curse, I guess.
Hannah:Especially when you have people that, like I, I feel like I know you right. If me and Britain were to go to the police like no, you understand, like Courtney had a business here, she has x, y and z or she's not gonna go anywhere and they're like well, she's an adult like you know my patterns, but they still wouldn't take your word for it, exactly.
Courtney:I mean it's unfortunate, but people will be like oh well, maybe the person just doesn't want to talk to you and you're like like I mean, yeah, I guess, but it's a tough spot, yep.
Cousin Marc:But that happens in every single case. Yeah, yep, I listened to one podcast called the Teacher's Pet, and the mother of two just disappeared and everybody there said there's no way this woman's leaving her two kids. Right Her two kids were her life. Right, there's no way.
Courtney:And kids were her life right, there's no way. And the police are like what you want me to do? Yeah, exactly, and it's sad because I I see both sides of that. I see like, yeah, a human, a human adult, has the right to just pick up and leave, and we don't always know everything about someone just because we think we do, and I understand that. But I also feel like how many cases could we solve if we didn't do that?
Courtney:Yeah, like, honestly, if I ever go quote, unquote, missing, and I'm just like pissed at all y'all and someone comes up to me and they're like hey, your friends are really concerned for you. I'm gonna be like, first of all, I'm fine and tell them I said fuck themselves. Like, but also thank them for caring about me. Like I'm gonna call hannah and be like I hate you. We really have to do that. But at the same time, I would be like okay, but hannah cares about me. She was worried. Yeah, I'll always be worried. Yeah, she stalks my location constantly. She's like hey, I see that it's 6 pm. Why are you in East Hartford? Why are you not home yet? Why aren't you home? When are you coming home?
Hannah:I don't know if anyone has your location, Mark, but A couple do, but they don't use it.
Cousin Marc:I feel like I always like say that on here because I'm like don't target me. People know where I am. I know where you are. I got a lot of people know where I am. I have my dad's location on my phone. That's right here. If something happens, I know where I can find him.
Courtney:Exactly, I usually just take the phones and just add the location, because everyone's like tech support, I need help and I'm like, ooh, there you are.
Cousin Marc:You're at the Walmart, I got you. I got to look at something they never know, we'll never notice. But anyways, gary did serve in the Navy, oh, he was military. The first time and he saw. He saw action in Vietnam and also saw action in the Philippines with the prostitutes there.
Courtney:Contributing factors. He proceeded to pick up, Check when he proceeded to pick up Check, check.
Cousin Marc:He proceeded to pick up STDs. Oh, he was married to his first wife, oh, you can see why that one didn't last long. Yeah, there's another issue with Ridgway being mad at women. You know for getting STDs, but he never killed anyone over there.
Courtney:That we're aware of.
Cousin Marc:Well, not in a military aspect.
Hannah:Okay, oh, oh, oh, like action.
Cousin Marc:He didn't kill anybody as in battle, but he didn't we don't know if he did or not, but he didn't kill any of the prostitutes that he was with over there.
Hannah:Okay, okay, I'm sorry. Every time I hear vietnam, I just want to go vietnam. Yeah right, what movie is that?
Cousin Marc:I have no idea, no, that was uh.
Hannah:Good morning vietnam yes, sorry, just every time I want to say that, but anyways, it was good morning.
Courtney:Vietnam. I want to say the Office also does that at one point. They do yeah.
Cousin Marc:Ridgway's first wife, while he was overseas, was cheating on him over here because she was by herself.
Courtney:In hindsight. Good choice, buddy, Pat the back on that.
Cousin Marc:one Good for her on that one, but again, it's just another thing that solidifies his Evilness in women Anger towards women.
Courtney:And he never hurt any of his wives, correct?
Cousin Marc:No, I believe it was his second wife. They went out somewhere and he snuck around the car.
Courtney:Yeah, oh yeah, I remember that and put her in a chokehold. Oh, the first wife, the second wife, second wife, I think it was the second wife Didn't he try to say like that wasn't me. There was a random man here, exactly, he tried to gaslight her.
Cousin Marc:He ran around the other side of the car and she's, you know, choked out when she let her go and he got on the other side. She was screaming, so he ran around the other. He pretended he wasn't there. What's the matter? She knew it was him, but she kept denying it.
Hannah:Was she the one that produced the child? Yeah, I believe so. The second one okay, I believe that was the mother of his child.
Courtney:Yeah, I wonder if I can.
Cousin Marc:That was the thing All of his ex-wives and ex-girlfriends said. He always wanted sex all the time, and he wanted a lot of it outdoors.
Courtney:Yes, and he wanted, he wanted a lot of it outdoors, yes, outdoors but.
Hannah:But in 73 I showed a picture I don't know.
Courtney:At least ted bundy was a good old guy there oh so is he on death row or no? No no he did a plea bargain and and admitted to all of them so he wouldn't get the death penalty and it looks like his marriages were claudia craig barrows 1970 to 1972, then marcia laureen brown 1973 to 1981 and finally judith lorraine lynch 1988 to 2002 yes, yes, he was still with Judith when he was arrested. Yes, yeah, yeah, because 2002 is far after he was.
Cousin Marc:Well, he was arrested in the end of 2001. That was when they finally caught him. He's 75. His killings went down after he married Judith, because Judith loved him and showed him the love, unlike, unlike the other two where the first one the first one cheated on him and then Marsha, his second wife, ended up having gastric bypass. Yes, so she got herself skinny and he got. He was afraid that she was gonna cheat on him.
Courtney:yeah, he was like resentful that other men were gonna look at her because he didn't want her. I think in his mind to be dirty like, yeah, now other men are gonna want you.
Hannah:They're gonna think about you impurely and so the third wife is like kinks, be kinks, and is like I'll have sex with you outside the backyard, they all commented on that.
Courtney:We're like, yeah, he always wanted to have sex like multiple times a day was something I remember them saying and he always wanted to have sex violently and outside, like he could never just be like, oh, like like a regular couple, like let's have like lazy mornings, like he knew he needed it to be like outside and violent and like multiple times a day.
Cousin Marc:Well, when you go back to it, that is normal for him.
Courtney:That's true, yeah, because of the violence from his mom, his brain is normal.
Hannah:So did. Did he like it when they were still? Because I know some killers are like I need you to be completely still like a corpse, Bundy.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, that's true, bundy, bundy. Bundy liked them acting dead Gross yeah.
Hannah:But again, it's not even noon.
Courtney:Yet we're like, yeah, necrophilia, and I will say so. I'm looking at a huge, long list of all of his victims, which is super sad and and honestly, my heart breaks looking at this list. Putting names to it really just brings it home makes it worse, yeah but I'm looking at most of the ages and, as of youngest, 16, 15, the oldest I've seen so far is 31.
Cousin Marc:There's only been one person 30 or over way down the bottom you're gonna have to see the 36 patricia there's a okay.
Courtney:So there was three that were over 30 and everybody else was mid-20s and below. You're right, because he, marta reeves, was 36 and Patricia Ann Yellow Robe was 38.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, but he also had one that he killed, that he knew, and she was a waitress. Which is interesting, she wasn't a prostitute.
Courtney:Doesn't fit. Unless he, like maybe had fantasized about her or he had seen something, he made a mistake.
Cousin Marc:He made a mistake and he admits to that. And after he killed her he laid down next to her and cuddled her and cried because he knew he screwed up.
Courtney:But see, that's where the behaviorist in me is so fascinated, because these mission based serial killers really believe in their mission to the core. They believe what they're doing is for a greater purpose. They do believe it's right, because that's you can't tell me. That's a person who doesn't feel empathy and who doesn't feel sorry he did. In our morals we should have felt bad the whole time, but he, he got so upset because he made a mistake that he does understand empathy and he does understand how to feel for somebody else. So it's like that's where it's fascinating to me on the emotion side social side, social, emotionally, like he does know.
Cousin Marc:He just believed in his mission more than you know anything else. Well, when he married his second wife, masha, he became very religious. He became very religious. You know he, he was being the family man. You know, going to church crying during sermons.
Courtney:Part of me wants to go mania question mark, because like hyper religiousness is like a huge thing in mania makes me wonder about like a bpd or a bipolar oh, that was.
Cousin Marc:That was dennis raider btk. He was the head guy at the church that he was, that he was part of oh, doesn't that make your skin crawl.
Courtney:There's something about being in a religious power of position and also being a serial killer that just makes my. All those times I was forced to go to catechism, I'm like guys. You don't know how close I was to death.
Hannah:Dude, we still need to do a whole episode on religious trauma because you know, because of Mark I don't know if he knows about me but I grew up extremely religious. So my school, my private school, was actually attached to the church that I went to. So I was there six days a week, whether it was for school or church on Sunday, I was there every day except Saturday. And come to find out one of the youth pastors.
Courtney:That was part of coaching the volleyball team.
Hannah:He was in Bible classes with us. He was there on Sundays for classes. He moved to Florida for this great principal job at this private Christian school. He gets arrested for sexually abusing children and that man was like in my life, like, and my mom actually had to come to us and be like did he do anything to you guys like that I don't know about. Like it's disgusting to me that these people are just they're everywhere. Yeah.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, but then that goes with nature. Yeah, yeah, but then that that goes with nature. Yeah, this guy is surrounded by kids 10 hours a day. The opportunity is there yeah, you know the opportunity base that's, that's the opportunity and if and if you're, if you can be a good judge of character, you can. You can figure out the weak ones and strong ones and then you exploit them. Or even not, if you're a good judge of character, you can figure out the weak ones and strong ones and then you exploit them.
Courtney:Or even not if you're a good judge of character. I mean, some of these people are in guidance counselor positions. These kids are being forced to come and tell you all the things that are going wrong with them. You don't even have to be good at reading kids. You're literally like oh, this kid just came in and told me he gets beaten at home If I make him feel special and give him some things, it's. It's so hard because children are so impressionable. Like you said earlier, it is so easy to find what they want. We behaviorists you talk about turning the behavior on and turning it off. You know how to reinforce these kids and it's. It really is not a skill that everybody should have. It's, uh, use the wrong way.
Hannah:It's very gross and just think about, like danny croto, like when I did two episodes over a year ago at this point that was a rough one, his family was like oh, a Catholic priest. There can be nothing wrong, danny. You need to be with this priest more. He can help shape you into a wonderful man.
Hannah:Yes, and to the point where, like he got picked up by this priest at school and he was crying and his friends remember he's like I don't want to go with him, but like yeah, yeah, the parents were like no, it's a priest, it's a man of god, he, they would never do anything my child.
Courtney:And that fucking priest murdered him and I think, fortunately, as a society, we're coming away from like, like, I think the and obviously for what I do, for work, I work with a lot of families. I work with a lot of parents. I feel like I see a lot more parents who are like, yeah, no, if I I can't go do that because I have to be home with my kid. And someone will say like, oh, why don't you get a babysitter? And I've seen moms be like, uh, because I don't trust anybody with my kid. Yeah, I'm not gonna trust a single person. Like people will say what about your sister? Well, you know what, I don't trust her. And just because she's my sister doesn't mean I should trust her to watch my kids. That's a very personal thing. I like that we're coming around to the idea of like we're just gonna pay that random guy down the street to hang out with our kids. That's kind of weird when you think about it.
Hannah:Billy Bob next door is a really nice guy when he mows his lawn.
Courtney:Like that doesn't mean shit. Exactly.
Cousin Marc:Exactly. Well, that was the babysitter.
Courtney:Yeah, tony Costa.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, out on the Cape.
Courtney:Yeah, yeah, I did an episode on him.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, yeah. They would always hang around with him out on the dump this and that, and then the next thing you know, he's murdering people from the hotel that he was working at.
Courtney:The good thing about Tony? Well, not a good thing the thing about Tony is he had a very specific type of. He murdered women he was in relationships with or women who were around a certain age. So the kids were probably always safe with Tony, because I really don't believe. After I've read, like I think, three books on him now, I really don't get the impression that he ever would have like. I do believe he, as far as taking care of children was, I do believe he was a good guy. He enjoyed spending time with them. He took them to do things. Maybe he shouldn't have taken them to a place where he was growing his marijuana and burying his bodies, but I think they were always. I think those girls were always safe with him.
Cousin Marc:To be honest, yeah, he's bought him for ice cream.
Courtney:I'm surprised he didn't try to kill their mom though, because she fit the profile.
Cousin Marc:She fit the profile hard but see, that's the thing with children and, like you said, hannah, you know that's a priest, you go, go with them. The priest is yeah, when children are saying something, the parents just brush it off oh, they're lying, oh, they're just kids.
Courtney:Yeah, you're looking for attention with?
Cousin Marc:cops yep, some cops use abuse their authority and some don't. But it's like how do you differentiate?
Courtney:right, right.
Cousin Marc:That's the problem you can't tell which adult is being mean to the child, because you're going to believe the adult before you believe the child. Right, right, which is sad in society, but anyways oh man, tangent, that's, okay. That was one of the other things that I had found when I was doing my research for him. I never knew how they got fingerprints off of a body that was submerged in water for so long.
Courtney:Right, and how would they be reliable? I guess is the word.
Hannah:Oh yeah, this is interesting.
Cousin Marc:What the coroners would do was they would cut the wrist and pull the skin off like a glove and they'd wear it right and wear it to get the fingerprints, because that was the easiest way to firm the skin up after it's been waterlogged.
Courtney:so that they could get a viable print. But that's so interesting. I don't know what it is about dismembering bodies that makes my body feel uncomfortable.
Hannah:Well, you're supposed to feel uncomfortable.
Courtney:Something about wearing people's skin and cannibalism. There's just something about those two. Well, you're not wearing it for fun, but they're still wearing it.
Hannah:They're like let me put it on.
Cousin Marc:You said like gloves. That makes me uncomfortable. You at least have a rubber glove on in between? I would hope so. You gotta use some kind of protection there.
Courtney:No gloves, no love, that's exactly what I was gonna say, Mark. I was like I'm gonna keep it clean. I don't know how cool Mark is with that. Oh, no, Mark's cool with that.
Hannah:Mark is cool with that. You should be his brother, Matt. You can't offend me.
Courtney:I think we should make t-shirts that say no glove, no love, with a cousin mark emblem on it and it has just like a skin hand. I'm gonna ask rob he can create one. It's like the adams family hand yes, but it says no glove no love, that's it, cousin mark dash, cousin, today's date what 2 2, 25. I love it, let's do it.
Cousin Marc:One of the things gary ridgeway talked about was having a polygraph.
Courtney:He ended up passing.
Cousin Marc:So they looked at Ridgeway and they asked him. They said how did you pass the polygraph? He says, and I quote, and here I am quoting. He says well, I just sat there and I relaxed and I answered their questions.
Courtney:Yeah, well, because it does go off of, I think, like your pulse and things like that yeah your heart rate when you're lying to somebody. You're like when we were lying to Rob about a surprise party. He's like we're going to go do this and we're like okay.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, and your heart starts to and we're sweating, yeah. But if you go into it and you're like take a Xanax. I could pass the polygraph that way. But this is why polygraphs aren't allowed in court cases.
Courtney:Right right, because they don't really tell you anything, because you can manipulate them. Yeah, it's interesting also, though he was not intelligent according to his IQ score, but yet he was intelligent enough to fake the polygraph.
Cousin Marc:They're psychopaths. I like that. Yeah, we're so psychopaths both of them, we're so past both of them. But once they started to get into DNA and everything, they had an article of clothing from the first murder victim that they had saved, that piece of clothing that they had had spray paint particles on it he was a painter. But they never. They, you know, back then they couldn't analyze it and figure out what it was. They could just see little tiny red spots. So now fast forward to DNA processes. They were able to figure out that it was spray paint for vehicles and they were able to narrow it down because Ridgeway worked at the Kenworth Trucking Company, spray painting the new vehicles, spray painting the new vehicles, which was one of the ways that they caught him because of having it on his clothes and passing it off. As you know, touch DNA. So they were able to.
Courtney:They had to get sharp with his teeth, yeah.
Cousin Marc:And they ended up picking him up at work. That was where they grabbed him.
Courtney:Hard to say. You don't work there when you're there, huh.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, and it was funny because he was so strange that his co-workers were starting to name him the Green River Killer.
Courtney:Imagine the irony.
Cousin Marc:They were trying to goof on him, not knowing that it was really him yeah, not knowing how close to death they were for saying that to a man who'd killed.
Courtney:he was actually 49, I think it was 48, but a Jane Doe, so 49, I think.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, in 2010,.
Hannah:they found another victim that they attributed to him, so he ended up admitting to that one too 48 life counts, life sentences, yeah, so I mean he'll be out soon you know, it's like a thousand years or something like that.
Cousin Marc:Yeah, but he had to plead. He had to plead guilty to all of them to avoid the death penalty.
Courtney:But like. Why would you want to stay alive to like it makes me wonder how much more there is for them to.
Hannah:Does he have parole, or is that without parole? That's without parole. No, no, no, no, he did not get parole.
Cousin Marc:He's serving 49 life sentences, so there's no parole.
Courtney:There's no good behavior situation here.
Cousin Marc:There is no star chart for Gary Ridgeway.
Courtney:All right, I'm going to stop our recording here. Wait, should we say goodbye? Oh, I'm not going to stop our recording here.
Hannah:I feel like we should say goodbye to him. He spent like two and a half hours on you.
Courtney:Well, I was going to say goodbye to him. I wasn't just going to press log off on him, I was just going to hit stop recording. But shouldn't we say goodbye to him though on air? Okay, sure, go ahead, hannah, lead us on your goodbye. Should we sing him a song?
Hannah:Goodbye, so long.
Courtney:I don't know the words to this one.
Hannah:This is getting really weird Goodbye.
Courtney:Welcome to us. We don't know how to start or end a conversation. Bye. Thank you, Cousin Mark. We appreciate you coming on and doing your thing and you're obviously welcome back whenever you have more things you want to yap about.
Cousin Marc:Yes, always All right, that's awesome. I would love to be back. You guys just let me know and we'll figure out a time and we'll banter.
Courtney:Sounds perfect, banter.
Hannah:And don't forget we have a group chat, so we need to hear from you, because I'm working on ladies.
Courtney:Of course. Alright, now I'm going to press Bye.
Hannah:Thanks for listening. Today, wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, hannah, and co-hosted by me, courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sasha N. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you.
