Ep. 76: The Babysitter Killer: Part 1

The Oakland County Child Killer case remains one of America's most disturbing unsolved mysteries, with four children murdered between 1976-1977 near Detroit. The investigation reveals bizarre contradictions including victims being cared for while in captivity, holiday-adjacent abduction dates, and suspicious deaths of potential witnesses.

• Four victims aged 10-12: Mark Stebbins, Jill Robinson, Christine Millich, and Timothy King
• Bodies found clean, bathed, with trimmed nails—earning the perpetrator the nickname "Babysitter Killer"
• Three victims strangled, but Jill Robinson shot in face with shotgun
• Only male victims showed evidence of sexual assault
• Timothy King fed his favorite food (KFC) before death, after his mother mentioned it in press conference
• Evidence of white pet fur, gold carpet fibers, and a cleaning agent called Fisohex
• Witness claimed seeing victim with police officer; multiple witnesses died suspiciously
• Bodies often found near police stations, suggesting possible taunting
• The case remains unsolved after 50 years

Beers That Fitz Podcast

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Personal Stories
• 2:33 Overview of the Oakland County Child Killer
• 12:28 First Victim: Mark Stebbins
• 17:52 Second Victim: Jill Robinson
• 29:57 Third Victim: Christine Millich
• 34:55 Fourth Victim: Timothy King and the KFC Connection
• 44:11 Evidence Analysis and Case Connections
• 54:49 Police Involvement Theories and Witness Deaths

Transcript

Hannah: 0:00

So fun story for this week. I do like fun stories. So on Tuesday I was like I have a couple of my grandfather's sweaters. And I was like, I want to wear one today.

Courtney: 0:09

I just need a big hug. I love a grandpa sweater with leggings.

Hannah: 0:12

I got a compliment on it. The woman that said oh my God, I love your sweater. I was like thanks, it was my grandfather's. And she's like, wow, the grandfather in good shape. I was like, no, he died in 94. She's like so it's extra special. I'm like it is Well, listen to this. So, and this is the next day, on Wednesday, rob went to go talk to my mom and she's like you know, it's weird. I haven't heard from Hannah. Usually Hannah has that weird witchy shit where she dreams about her grandfather during his birthday, whatever. And I was Rob. I wore a sweater yesterday.

Courtney: 0:42

You had some kind of inkling and feeling and you wore the sweater. Yeah, so I called my mom.

Hannah: 0:45

I was like mom, don't worry, Still got my witchy shit. I was like I wore a sweater Adapting.

Courtney: 0:51

Okay.

Hannah: 1:02

Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.

Courtney: 1:09

Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us.

Hannah: 1:15

This is Wicked.

Courtney: 1:16

Wanderings. Hello Hannah, hello Courtney, it is just the two of us today. Rob was too busy so with that in mind, I am running the switchboard, which I know Rob hates. Shout out to Rob for editing. I will try my best not to cut anybody off when I use the start and stop button. It's just really tempting because it goes from red to green when you stop it.

Courtney: 1:53

This episode, I will preface and say, is going to be a journey. It started with picking up a book that a couple of times I had been to Barnes Noble and I picked up this book and I looked at it because I'm a cover girl. The cover was interesting to me and I really didn't know like I knew the gist of what it was about, but not really anything beyond that. And it started with picking that book up and it ended with many midnight strolls through Google. I've listened to like 10 other podcasts talk about the same individual or individuals and I feel like I have more questions than when I started. So I'm going to preface by saying Hot Mess Express over here. So we did tease it in the last episode. It's going to be an episode about the Oakland County child killer. Huge trigger warning here for anybody who has a hard time listening to things about children, I'm going to do my best not to let anything get too graphic. I kind of paraphrased and summarized a lot of things so that way we could keep all of that out of here in order to help our viewers but also maintain the dignity of the little ones, babies, who were lost. So the Oakland County child killer was also known as the babysitter killer, which I think a lot of. I feel like I have like a babysitter killer thing going, because if you'll remember when I did Tony Costa, he was also the babysitter. So that was one of the first things that stuck out to me, and more on that later. So right now it won't sound like something you understand if you don't know Hannah, but more on that later.

Courtney: 3:13

Ok, so the dates that the Oakland County Child Killer, or OCCK as they are often called, were active was from February 15th 1976 through March 16th 1977 in Detroit. So you're looking at a very short window, very short. You're looking at a very, very short window. What I will say is I'm going to talk about four victims. There are some sources.

Courtney: 3:37

It's really hard with this case. Things don't line up everywhere. There are some sources will say that confirmed four kids connected, potentially six, but I'm going to talk about the four confirmed for our purpose here. The biggest thing that I can say is the status of this case is unsolved. What so? They still have no clue? Yes, and that was over 50 years ago. I think that a lot of what I was diving into when I was researching and trying to figure out how we were going to podcast about this, how I was going to kind of approach this topic, is hard because we talk about a lot of cases that are solved. We're really interested in kind of understanding the dynamic of why somebody did something, and so for this one, I think it's a double edged sword, because it's very interesting of how they were not caught, but it's also troubling. Obviously there's a lot of really strong evidence that suggests to a lot of different people, and then what you'll find is, by the end, you too will probably be very confused.

Hannah: 4:31

Do you have an inkling of who you think it might be based off of the suggested people?

Courtney: 4:36

What I will say is I do so. I read the Kill Jar by J Reuben Appelman. I've been on my TBR for a while. J reuben appleman, I've been on my tbr for a while and I will say that the way that he lays it out is it kind of pushes you into one category. But I will say that the way he writes I appreciate is very matter of fact. So he'll say, like this happened which leads you to this person, like right at the end, like he pretty much. He kind of ends it like an attorney would, with a closing statement like example x leads you to the sky, does it not? Example b leads you to the sky, does it not? Which I can appreciate.

Courtney: 5:08

But I can also acknowledge that there could be some bias, just based off of the source that I use as my primary. So I did use the kill jar as my primary source and then I kind of had to skeleton my way out and look into different things. So the victims, four of them, two boys and two girls. So just to walk through them in order. Mark stebbins he was found on february 19th. Jill robinson was found on december 26th. Christine millich I'm really sorry if that name is incorrect january 21st she was found and timothy king the final confirmed on march 22nd. And what I do want to highlight is I'm going to read you the dates that they went missing and the dates that their body was found and I'm going to see if you notice any trend in the different dates. So the first one was February 15th to February 19th. December 22nd to December 26th. January 2nd to January 21st. March 16th to March 22nd.

Hannah: 6:09

Okay, so the first two, there was like four days in between, and then the second two had this almost the same amount was six, six, 17 days in between.

Courtney: 6:18

Yeah, so the longest held in captivity or missing and unaccounted for was Christine, so she was from January 2nd to January 21st, so she had like that 19 day missing. And then Timothy King was the 16th to the 22nd, so you're looking at about six days. But what really struck me, and I think it's interesting, is because I read the book, so obviously it's very different for hearing it to read.

Courtney: 6:38

When I was reading the book I was like OK, but what is this? One day off from holidays? So Mark Stebbins goes missing on February 15th, the day after Valentine's Day. Jill Robinson is found December 26th, the day after Christmas. Christine goes missing January 2nd, the day after New Year's, and then Timothy King goes missing March 16th, the day before St Patrick's Day. How old were these kids? So they were all between the ages of 10 and 12.

Hannah: 7:05

So did it have to line up with school vacations or well? So my other question is it could have. Was there a dumping ground, or were these found different parts of the city?

Courtney: 7:15

so I broke it down because I wanted. So. There's so much similar about these cases, but they are kind of different too, so I'm gonna break it down and look at all of the individuals on their own. The first thing that stuck out to me was just those holidays, because so the way they broke it down in the kill jar was there was a page let me flip, I'm not gonna quote so here I am quoting not yet, but they broke it down in a way where they had showed you the name and then dates in captivity and so

Courtney: 7:43

this is like right after the foreword of the book, so you see this first. And that's where immediately my brain was like holidays, which is very interesting. I will say. Some sources talked about that all of these kids had parents who all the kids, I believe, except Timothy had parents who were divorced. Couldn't confirm that specifically, but if that's the case I also thought that was interesting. But anyways, let's get into every child in their individual order, okay? So mark stebbins was the first victim. He was 12 years old. Um, he was abducted leaving the american legion. It was like mid-afternoon, so it wasn't like during the nighttime or anything sketchy. Um and his mom reported him missing when he did not return home. So obviously she's home. She's like, okay, where is he? She reported him missing when he did not return home. So obviously she's home. She's like, okay, where is he? She reports him missing, do we?

Hannah: 8:28

know why he was at the American Legion.

Courtney: 8:30

Some sources say he was at a work party for his mom, some say he was at an event for children. It was definitely like an appropriate thing that he was supposed to be doing, okay. So he called and said, you know, I'm going to go home, and then didn't come home. Four days later they found him in a parking lot near the Michigan State Police outpost, what With his body laid out.

Courtney: 8:48

Yeah, and remember that one moment, because you're going to have that moment a couple more times. So the reports showed that he had been sexually assaulted and there was evidence on his wrists and ankles of ligatures used. None of that was released to the public and I will also highlight which you're going to hear me highlight a lot of things kind of over and over again and here.

Hannah: 9:08

I am highlighting here.

Courtney: 9:10

I am reminding you a lot of things are hard to report in this case because it's like if you're going chronologically, at the time somebody didn't know something, but then they're finding out years later, sometimes even up until like 2012 later, 2012 later. This was not reported. Why was this not in any of the findings? So the crime scene there was noted traces of semen, blood and human slash pet hair. Additionally, there were enzymes found in saliva found on his underwear. Oh sorry, cringe big. I don't. I don't enjoy the idea of that either. Again, tried to keep it very I know I know he's very.

Hannah: 9:47

He's a big douche. Canoe, he's definitely up there, or she. Well, I don't know.

Courtney: 9:51

They I guess they is kind of the only way that we can really word what happened there. I think the hard part is that all of the evidence that was found seemed to be butchered. In my opinion and that is my opinion but there's just so many instances where things were not reported like at the time when they reported it was like hey, he was found, he was wearing the same clothes that he went missing in. Um, they never had put in any of the reports initially that the child had been sexually assaulted. It was just kind of like here he is.

Courtney: 10:22

What I will say and and this is true for all of them is that all of the children showed that they had been cared for and I'm going to stop everybody from going Courtney, what this is? Someone murdering children, what do you mean cared for? The reason why he was called the babysitter killer was because he had tended to the bodies, he had cleaned them, he had washed them, they had their nails trimmed, they were groomed and they were in clean pressed clothes and some of them had evidence that they had been fed and they were not malnourished. So it's not like they were being kept someplace, they're like human dolls for him kind of yeah, kind of okay, my mind is blown and we're what?

Courtney: 10:57

10 minutes yeah, we can't be more than that. In definitely not. Maybe we're at 14 minutes, but we definitely said weird stuff for the beginning.

Hannah: 11:04

So I'm I'm really still focused on most of these kids probably came from divorced parents. So I'm thinking, if it's surrounding the holidays and you have any type of custody, I now I'm like, okay, now I'm going down a rabbit hole.

Courtney: 11:21

There's a lot of rabbit holes here.

Hannah: 11:22

Go down, because I have like 14 pages of notes and it doesn't feel done Because it sounds like if these kids were well taken care of minus obviously the abuse that they were undergoing and death, could they have gone with this person willingly? That's the big if I'm sorry, but you said there wasn't't many details, like the details weren't released that these kids were abused at all.

Courtney: 11:48

No, so and what you're going to find is that they were not all abused. Is there a difference in?

Hannah: 11:52

sex Like oh yeah, so he only had sex with the males, yes, or?

Courtney: 11:58

assaulted them with an object to keep it not graphic. Yeah, so I think the biggest thing is that there was such a contrast between what was released to the public and what was quote unquote known. And then they're telling people oh, there was no evidence found on the body. But then we're finding out later on oh there was. I was buried in this report. Oh it was. But now you know, we didn't know at the time.

Hannah: 12:20

So is this police aren't doing their job, or was it just they thought they were helping the case by not having all the details released?

Courtney: 12:27

I'm going to see if you're led to the same conclusion. I am All right. So the second victim, jill Robinson, was 12 years old and if you remember she was December 22nd. 1976 is when she was abducted To refresh. Mark went missing on February 15th and then Jill was December 22nd. So it's a pretty big gap in time, especially because Mark was only held captive until the 19th.

Courtney: 12:49

I'm wondering if there isn't a victim or two misplaced in there. And at first, when they saw just Mark, they weren't. You know, it's important to think, like it's easy to say, going back hindsight, we see that it's a serial killer, they're approaching this profile, but at the time they find one kid and, as horrific as it is, they're not thinking like, oh, we've got to lock our children up. You know, they're just not, they're just not thinking. There's a lot of hindsight that we have and there's not enough to establish a profile.

Courtney: 13:10

So then this killer and I do say killer, sometimes I'll say he, and I have to correct myself this person really throws people for a loop, because Jill is a female, same age as Mark, but female. She left home after a fight with her mom about dinner preparations. She stormed off on her bicycle with a backpack of belongings, as 12-year-olds did back then. Right, okay, we've all had that fight with our parents, yep, and she goes missing.

Courtney: 13:33

The following day her bicycle was found behind a local hobby shop, but that was it. Her backpack was gone and so was she. So now people are probably starting to connect to like, oh, okay, but also, it's been almost a year you're talking february to december, that's almost a whole year's worth of time. I don't necessarily know that people were thinking, oh, what about mark? So december 26 her body was found alongside the highway nearby to the troy police station, within sight, according to some sources. So if you were inside the troy police station according to some of these sources and you looked outside, you would have been able to see where her body was dumped okay, I have a couple thoughts.

Hannah: 14:06

Yeah, go ahead. One was she tomboyish?

Courtney: 14:09

not sure wasn't stated okay, because I'm wondering if, like, he thought she was a boy and then right, misgendered, right, that's a good thought.

Hannah: 14:17

I didn't think about that, that's um because also 12 year old girls I mean depending on when you develop could be a little homely right. Also, is there a police connection to this killer, because that that's the second time it's found outside police station area, like michigan state police was mark, and now we're at troy police station for this one and december 26 being the day after christmas, so it just for me. So sorry, bring up Bundy here, surprise surprise man.

Courtney: 14:45

what are we? We're at 16 minutes, mark, and she's bringing in Bundy.

Hannah: 14:50

I'm just thinking of like dumping grounds, of like places you are familiar or you feel safe yeah. So was he an officer or did he? They keep saying, he myself, it's hard. It's hard Because there are female serial killers, as we know. So was that just a comfort spot or like?

Courtney: 15:10

did he want the bodies found so they could see like, look, I did take care of this child. By this point reading, I was also thinking, potentially it was a taunt, it was like hey, I'm right here under your nose.

Courtney: 15:16

Look at what I'm doing again. I got away with it the first time. We know that sometimes, when people get away with something the first time, they get that high. Normally, though, when they get away with it, I feel like from episodes we've done, they do it sooner, because what you know about human reinforcement, I mean they, they get it done, they get away with it. It felt good in some capacity to them. They're going to do it again sooner. So who found these bodies? Random people. It was not always the same type of people, okay. So, like mark, she was found fully clothed in the clothing she had been wearing when abducted, including her backpack still strapped on her back. All these kids were found like in I'm not gonna say comfortable positions, because to me that always felt weird when I was reading it, because I mean they're dead. What?

Hannah: 15:55

was the girl's name.

Courtney: 15:56

Again, I'm sorry jill robinson very generic name, but if you do type in jill robinson-K. Some places had pictures up which I suppose we could include into the show notes too so people can look. I mean, she, she's kind of homely, they're all. They're all so young. When I saw the pictures I was like, oh, these kids, my heart, as someone who works with children, my heart just kind of broke, because they're all so young. You're talking between 10 and 12 years old.

Hannah: 16:23

That's oh, that's so crazy, yeah okay, sorry, I feel like I'm you're not letting you. You're fine, you're totally fine.

Courtney: 16:31

So she was found fully clothed in the clothing she had been wearing when abducted, including her backpack strapped on her back, also in cleaned, cared for shape. There was no evidence of like her being neglected in any capacity. What I will say is different, and this is a jump scare. She had been shot in the face with a 12 gauge shotgun. So the first little boy had evidence that he was strangled. So that's all. Three of the other children were strangled. Jill had been shot in the face with a 12 gauge shotgun. It was because she was the girl. The girl had to be different.

Courtney: 17:07

My thought is that I immediately think like, okay, he strangled her, he thought she was dead and she was not, and he panicked. This person panicked and they were like shit, this person is not dead and it was a jump. There's a couple of things about this case that make me feel like as calculated as this person was. They either were jumpy where they were doing things, they got so confident that they were assuming they were always going to do it right or maybe somebody who maybe wasn't as highly educated, someone who was kind of just like an opportunistic, they were like oh, I'm going to try this. It didn't work. They're flying by the seat of their pants because I'm just curious.

Hannah: 17:44

Did she have strangulation marks or we're not sure?

Courtney: 17:46

it was not mentioned. If it was, however, I will always preface by saying that all of the sources are very different and that, with as many things seemingly went missing, it's very hard to figure out what was actually true and then what was not. The autopsy revealed that there was no sexual assault, but that she had been fed and cared for while in captivity. Like I said, but no sexual assault. So to me now I'm like okay, this is where this person is. Sexual assault. On the first male victim, nothing. On the second victim, who was female, there was white pet fur found on the body and there was some human hair found on her body. Again, not that any of it was mentioned.

Courtney: 18:24

When they initially did the reporting, it was kind of left as this like well, there was no evidence there. And I know a lot of people are thinking like courtney, okay, but you know, dna testing and things, it was still not really noted. So again, kind of weird. So now people in town are kind of like, okay, I'm not letting my kid go someplace right now. They're starting to get a little bit like hmm, is there something else happening here? So enter your third victim, christine millich. Third victim 10 years old. So she's the youngest of the victims. January 2nd 1977 is when she goes missing.

Hannah: 18:56

Oh, so there was another girl.

Courtney: 18:58

Mm-hmm.

Hannah: 18:59

Oh, okay.

Courtney: 18:59

Two girls, two boys. Okay, sorry, all right. Which is why, initially, so like. Again, when you're reading the book that I use as my source, that first page lays it out. So there's all four of them and you can tell by the names two girls, two boys. Okay, the names two girls, two boys, okay. So you're like okay, this person didn't care. But the more you dive into it, you're like but they did care. And then the more you unravel about their suspect list too, it doesn't make any sense. I found myself a couple of times throughout being like are they really all related? Was there somebody who had a different mo? That was kind of like piggybacking off of it. I have a thought go ahead.

Hannah: 20:14

Okay, I don't know if it's something you thought of. So if these kids were taken from broken homes, did he think he, they think that they were helping them by you know what? You're going to have a miserable existence being from broken homes. I'm going to help you by doing this.

Courtney: 20:32

So I didn't think about that. But when I got into looking at the suspects, they had so many suspects. So there were some from great homes, there were some from broken homes and I can see where, for one of the people that I'm thinking about, I could see someone being like I'm going to spare you. What then makes me think like how did they know? Because there was no evidence that the kids have been like stalked or anything like that's true. So it really did seem like, if you think about it, mark was coming home from the American Legion. Yep, seems like it could have been opportunistic. He was on his way home. You saw him out. He was by himself. Grab him.

Courtney: 21:07

Jill stormed out of her house to go leave. She was upset, she was vulnerable Maybe you were watching but again by herself left her house, christine also by herself. So she failed to return home from the 7-eleven where her mom allowed her to walk and purchase magazines. It was not that far again. Remember we're in 1977, very different time. Uh, you know, she really wanted to go get these magazines. Her mom was like okay, fine, here's the money. Go get your magazine and come right back 15 minutes tops, be careful. Crossing the road and like don't, don't dilly-dally, come right back. So after three hours when she returned, failed to return home. Her mom called and reported her missing.

Courtney: 21:45

I have no idea how this woman lasted three hours. Yeah, because at this point we know in the area that two other kids have been kidnapped and killed. So christine is the one who has gone the longest, which is also interesting. So you're looking at, the boys were sexually assaulted, the girls were not, but Christine is female and she was gone the longest. So, like what was happening there, was it just? And how old was Christine? 10. She was the youngest, not by much. We've got one 10 year old, one 11 year old and two 12 year olds.

Courtney: 22:22

Courtney, there's so many thoughts in my head. So 19 days after she is taken or goes missing, a mail carrier found her body in a snowbank, again fully clothed in the clothes she had been abducted in on the side of a rural road within view of homes, but there's no police department mentioned in this one. So it's almost like this person likes the idea of somebody catching them. The autopsy suggested that she had been strangled 24 hours before her body was discovered and similar to jill. There was no evidence of sexual assault, white pet fur found on the body and human hair, but again not noted during the time. So many thoughts. I mean it's. I need a minute's process.

Courtney: 22:55

It's a lot, it's a lot and we haven't even got to the fourth victim yet we haven't even gotten to the fourth victim yet and I've got like five pages of suspects. I can see why it's been 50 years in this case is not solved. So you've you're on your third victim two girls, one boy, two strangled, one shot in the face with a shotgun yeah, I feel like all my theories are out the window one sexually assaulted, two not see where I'm saying like. At some point while I'm reading these I'm like there's enough to be connected, or is it a copycat?

Courtney: 23:23

two police departments, two police departments one snow bank also cared for, also fed. The times of capture are all different and it's. It's really interesting because I started to dig into like and you'll see, like on my last two victims I talk about when the autopsy revealed that they had passed they're clearly okay. I mean, the shotgun blast to the face, you, you, you obviously killed them there and left them there. So what did you do? Just push her out of the car and just. You know what I'm saying.

Hannah: 24:00

Like I just, and nobody heard that if it's a shot of the police station, exploded her face outside of the police station.

Courtney: 24:08

God yeah, no, okay all right fourth, the fourth victim and probably the most known victim, timothy King. So when we did a episode with Cousin Mark last week, he was one of the fun facts that we talked about. He was the KFC one. So he was the final known victim, 11 years old, and he went missing on March 16th 1977. So he left home to go to the pharmacy nearby to buy candy never returned. An extensive search was completed for him, which I do think is important to note, but I believe his family was still nuclear. They were still together. Nothing was discovered until his body was found on march 22nd in the evening by two teenagers. His body had been left in a ditch. Estimated he had been killed six hours before he was found. So now that window is coming closer and closer.

Courtney: 24:57

So yeah he's now killing people during the day because if they found him in the evening and his body estimated by the medical examiner was six hours before showing that he had been killed, you killed him in the middle of the day.

Hannah: 25:10

If you're finding them at like 6 pm or 7 pm, you killed him at noon well, and I hope also they're taking into account I know this was, you know, the 70s but the temperature of the place too. So if they're looking at the liver for the time of death, I mean, these times of year are really cold because we're looking at january, december, march, yeah, february and february, like he only was.

Courtney: 25:33

So some people on different sources will call him like the snow killer too, because it seems like he was only active during the winter again from what we have evidence and then not being found.

Hannah: 25:43

And then, all of a sudden, the killings stop. Where did they go? Did they die? Did they get caught for something else?

Courtney: 25:51

so timothy is the most interesting in opinion because there's the most information and you have to factor poor Mark was the first one. Yeah, they didn't really know to like do all the things. They didn't know how to pull out all the bells and whistles by Timothy. They were like here we go again. So during the time he was held captive, his family did a press conference and his mom had made a statement about just wanting him to come home safely. Just let him go so she could feed him his favorite food, which was Kentucky fried chicken. The autopsy results showed that he had a final meal of KFC shortly before his time of death, Again also cleaned and groomed Stop Prior to being strangled, and his autopsy showed evidence of sexual assault with a foreign object.

Hannah: 26:35

Court.

Courtney: 26:37

What strangled and his autopsy showed evidence of sexual assault with a foreign object court. What? And this is where in my mind I'm like this guy was cocky or so. So there's, there's multiple theories here, right? So did he see one right one opportunity here? Did he see the press conference? And he was like maliciously, like I'm gonna show them, I know I saw what they were doing.

Courtney: 26:57

Or did they see the press conference and think, oh, he really likes, he really likes kfc that's what I'm gonna give him for his last meal, because there is some kind of nurturing piece, yes, or is it neither of those things? And he says to the child what, what's your favorite meal? I want to give you something nice to eat. And he says kfFC.

Hannah: 27:14

Did these kids all go to the same school At least like anything else connecting them at all? Not that I could find.

Courtney: 27:22

So weird. I think also this victim, timothy, really became part of the profiling that they did for him, for this killer. So much speculation into that mind game aspect, with KFC tending to the bodies. That's when people were really down the rabbit hole of theories where they were like is this, I mean, this person is sick, but is this person like sick, sick, or are they really just trying to care? Like did they really hear the mother's pleas and think, oh, I should feed them?

Courtney: 27:48

what they want and what I will also say is that the father of timothy barry king. He sued the michigan state police, believing that they were hiding the identity of his son's murderer. Barry was also a lawyer, so keep that in mind when you're thinking about suing him, and he also kept fighting in the case to keep it open and find his son's killer up until he died in 2020. He it became like his life's mission to try to figure out and dig deep and talk to reporters. He had talked talked to J Reuben Appelman, who had written this book. He was very, very, very involved in saying like this person is here and he had a lot of, in my opinion, really helpful things to say.

Courtney: 28:25

Some other notable evidence to consider that, like I'm sorry this part is just kind of thrown here is like I didn't know where to put some of this stuff. I was like these things are important and when we're considering, like, who this person is, but I didn't really know where to put them. So the original police reports left out that the sexual assaults of both boys happened, that it was done with an object and neither of the female victims had evidence of sexual assault. That feels huge to me.

Courtney: 28:47

Very huge that feels like, if I could bold and underline that feels like monumental to me, like what? What would have been the point of leaving it out? And how would you have not observed that, as a medical examiner, three out of the four victims were strangled as the means of death which is also sticking out to me, that's a big similarity one being shot with a shotgun. So I'm thinking maybe the killer broke the pattern due to something unexpected you know some people talked about. Maybe jill's case was not in fact related. The rest of her case matches up, but was it something where something else had happened entirely? I feel like the person got spooked.

Courtney: 29:21

Truthfully, after reading all of it, I think that he or they thought that they strangled Jill, thought she was done, she moved or made a sound, or her body just reacted the way bodies sometimes do after they've been, you know, killed. I don't know. I think that it was a jump, a jump move. It was like, oh my god, what do I do? And it was just a reactionary situation. Or potentially there's two people who are committing these murders. That also played into my head, because if there's two people, maybe that's why there's female and male victims. Yeah, I would love to know if her, her, hyoid, hyoid, hyoid.

Hannah: 29:51

What is it right here when you strangle someone? Oh yeah, pop snapped, we could look into that.

Courtney: 29:57

We could definitely look into that. So, thinking about all the things that connect these kids, the next biggest thing is obviously that all four victims were between the ages of 10 and 12. That's a very clear, very obvious. I mean, that's the only connection I could come up with, besides the fact that they were all in Michigan area, right? What I also found interesting not necessarily evidence, but two writers attempted to write a book before this author did. When the author asked one of them why, why didn't you finish, his response was there wasn't an ending. That's what. That's what. But to me that that was like. That stuck out in my head. As there's somebody playing the background of like I'm not gonna allow whatever this is to happen. Like there's someone in the background.

Hannah: 30:42

In my opinion, that's just playing defense, keeping all of these things out of the media, keeping all these people away and because how else, with the story like that's, that's not fair to these kids, like, well, I'm just not gonna write it because there's no way maybe they were threatened.

Courtney: 30:55

I mean, and I think once I start talking about the second half of this case, where you're talking about the people who were involved, I think you might reflect back on that and understand like, okay, this person might have been threatened. Maybe this person had family. Some of the things that happened here were too weird to even be a fluke. So I also found in my journey through all of this that the white dog hair was likely from a small dog or a terrier which is important.

Courtney: 31:20

That's what I was thinking, so that makes sense. What also was really interesting to me is that they believed that one of the vehicles used to transport some of the bodies had gold carpet fibers. But the like it was really weird because they were talking about different vehicles which I didn't get into in my notes because there was like seven. It was like a witch hunt of vehicles, very hard to keep track of, especially if you don't know vehicles that well. But it looked like they were suggesting that potentially the girls and boys were kept in different places because both of the male victims had gold carpet fibers on their body when they were found and that the girls had no carpet fibers at all, which was indicative, possibly, of them being kept in someplace concrete tile, et cetera that didn't have carpet, or at least not the same place as the male victims. Okay, odd. And I will also say that one of the suspects we are going to talk about their family had a small white terrier.

Hannah: 32:10

But there must have been something else to connect them besides a white dog 100.

Courtney: 32:14

That was more of like the sealing the deal you have a white dog.

Hannah: 32:18

You have a white dog, it's like a thread of evidence, like the other episode I did where it's like what tiny thread although I had like a really blonde moment where I was like oh, the thread like no, like his, it was his mom that got him in trouble.

Courtney: 32:29

Not in trouble, but right, yeah, they caught him essentially, and I'm sure she was surprised too.

Hannah: 32:33

That was I thought it was like oh no, I remember what I said. I said oh, he got adopted. Like what are you talking about? Like the piece of thread was in the bassinet, I don't know.

Courtney: 32:40

Anyways, we, we, you know you had to be there. I guess the final thing that I thought was really well, not the final, but the final part that I'm going to note here is that Polaroid pictures are mentioned in nearly every single suspect who is interviewed in some capacity, which to me suggests a link between the suspects or shared knowledge among them. So whether they were aware of something that happened, like if you and I know that somebody else did something bad and we both know, even though we didn't participate. Something about Polaroid pictures to me when I was reading was like, yeah, that's a thing. They kept coming up and I know it was the 70s and everyone's like, oh, my God, courtney, of course they're Polaroid pictures, but the people kept mentioning it as evidence, like, oh, it could have been this person because they had Polaroid, or that person showed me this Polaroid, or this person had a box of Polaroids.

Courtney: 33:25

It just kept coming up and getting highlighted and then towards the end of the novel again, sorry, some of this evidence is kind of weird the way that it's kind of laid out, but there was an FBI report that hypothesized that all four bodies were cleaned with a specific chemical called Fisohex. I mean, it was actually a product that was taken off the market and typically used in laundry companies. So laundromats, dry cleaners, that kind of thing. The author highlighted and pretty much bolded that the first place he would have looked, hearing that information, was the laundromat directly next to the pharmacy that Timothy went missing from. When he followed his idea, he did discover an employee that had sexual misconduct report and that employee had a known associate with one of the top suspects. And that just begins the ring of where everything goes.

Hannah: 34:11

Okay, but when you were talking about the Polaroids, I noticed when I was looking up the picture of one of the victims that they talked about some type of child sex ring slash, child pornography Okay.

Courtney: 34:26

And that all comes into it too. So I'm going to start kind of backwards from the book. So if you've read the book, you're like Courtney, what are you doing? You're starting kind of backwards. But before I end this off today, I want to talk about one particular thing that happened.

Courtney: 34:44

That was just too weird, okay, um, so there was a witness that the author spoke about in the book that he talked to. His name was sebastian and he had said years later that he saw christine before she disappeared, leaving the 7-eleven with a police officer. He called the hotline number for the tips during that time and he had, you know, he had threatened to. He told them and they threatened to come to his home. He said after Tim was killed, the police came to the school and took him aside and told him to change his story. Years later, he was dating a girl whose father was a police officer and he asked her to set a meeting between him and her father, having this be somebody that he trusted. Now he said can you please set aside this meeting? I'd like to talk to him. He told that policeman everything, and the police officer's response was you stay home, keep your doors locked. Five, okay, five days later he was shot and killed.

Courtney: 35:30

In high school sebastian told a friend the same story. So years go by, he tells the friends the same story. The friend called the state police. Three days later he was found dead in his parents garage, ruled a suicide that he gassed himself out. A year after that happened sebastian told another friend.

Courtney: 35:44

A day later the same police officer he saw with christine came to the school, busted his friend for weed. The very next day after being busted the friend was found dead and ruled a suicide, having also gassed himself out in the family garage. When he was 21 he finally confided in his mother who he had been hiding all of it from. She told him mind his business, but she did call and report it. The police showed up at his house. The same cop he saw with christine beat sebastian until he was handcuffed. Sebastian called him out saying he saw him with christine that day. He knows what he. He was beaten until he was unconscious and woke up in the hospital. Sebastian also recalled that the clerk from the day he saw Christine leave the 7-Eleven died years ago of also a reported suicide.

Hannah: 36:25

I mean it would make sense if there was a cop involved.

Courtney: 36:29

Mm-hmm, it would still make sense, especially with not having all the evidence, or some things were not said to anybody dropping of the bodies yeah, there's a lot here that really like immediately I'm looking at it and I'm like so either it was a police officer who was doing it, it was somebody who was prominent that was another thought to me, because the police often will protect prominent people in an area. We've known that about history or was it a relative of a police officer? I know sometimes police officers will hide things that their family does.

Hannah: 36:58

I mean, what better way if you're going to have a sex ring like that? I mean what?

Courtney: 37:02

better way to have it right under the police's nose right.

Hannah: 37:05

And, like you know, obviously the officers have to have their uniforms cleaned, right, so it would make sense if there was a connection with a dry cleaners Damn.

Courtney: 37:14

There's so much and I think that, unfortunately, wonders, that's where we're going to stop for today, what I have to stop us, because there are so many suspects that it would be unfair to leave people hearing just a few of them and not all of them. But Courtney Hannah looks like she wants to punch me directly in the face right now my brain's just going a mile a minute.

Hannah: 37:41

Have fun thinking about this for a week I'm gonna have to, yeah, like I'm really gonna have to. Holy shit, this is interesting it.

Courtney: 37:50

I'm telling you it's a rabbit hole. I have to say the kill jar. Uh, speaking strictly from like a book lover's perspective now, and not like the true crime lover. I gave it a four star on goodreads. Everybody who knows me knows I am stingy with my good, good goodreads stars. I love the content. I think that the way that the author brought it about was great. I just have a really hard time when the author connects a lot of their personal life in, and so that's the only thing that kept it from a five star for me. Nothing against the author. I think that for him the telling of the story probably directly related with you know he had a personal connection to the area and that's probably why he was interested. But for the sake of my interest not being from the area, I think that that part was just kind of for me.

Hannah: 38:29

Oh court, I'm so excited for the second half.

Courtney: 38:31

So definitely add the kill jar to your TBR shelf if it isn't already there, but don't read it before next week. We want you guys to be surprised, okay, so let's do pick a card any card. Pick a card, any card. Here you go, hannah. Pick a card, any card. Don't throw them on the floor. That's the other part you want me to read it.

Hannah: 38:57

Yeah, any card, don't throw them on the floor. That's the other part. You want me to read it? Yeah, go ahead. Okay, we have a Jack of Spades and it is for Lenita Oliveira. On September 4, 2007, skeletal remains were found in the woods about 200 yards off Route 122 in Rutland. The victim had been reported missing in Worcester by family members on May 4th 2007. If you have any information about this, please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE. And again, that's the Jack of Spades.

Courtney: 39:25

I always like to look at the pictures.

Hannah: 39:28

She looks like such a happy person, and that's such a good photo too.

Courtney: 39:33

Does it say how old she was?

Hannah: 39:36

She must be in her 40s. To me, yeah it doesn't say.

Courtney: 39:40

And that's such a rough area too. If you're not familiar from the area, rutland is very desolate, like yeah.

Hannah: 39:47

Even saying Rutland, it's like oh.

Courtney: 39:51

Yeah, it's really out there. I always think of the Rutland prison camps when I think about Rutland. Well, all right, take care Wanderers. Bye guys.

Hannah: 40:03

Thanks for listening today. Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, Hannah, and co-hosted by me.

Courtney: 40:09

Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Hannah: 40:12

Music by Sasha M. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering. Thank you.