Ep. 77: The Babysitter Killer: Part 2

The Oakland County Child Killer case reveals a disturbing web of suspects connected through a child exploitation ring, with evidence of police corruption and wealthy influence obstructing justice for four murdered children.

• Christopher Bush, son of GM's CFO, failed a polygraph test that remained hidden for 30 years
• Gregory Green had a history of molesting hundreds of children and was linked to Bush
• Suspicious "suicides" of key suspects and a police officer showed no gunshot residue
• Ted Lamborghini refused to take a polygraph and chose life imprisonment instead
• North Fox Island operated as a front for child exploitation under Gerald Richards
• Evidence suggests police corruption, with records destroyed and investigations halted
• DNA evidence wasn't tested until decades after the crimes
• Forensic profile points to a killer seeking validation with ritualistic behavior
• All suspects were interconnected through a larger child exploitation network

If you have theories about this case or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear your thoughts and insights on this complex, disturbing case.

Beers That Fitz Podcast

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Overview
• 3:37 Christopher Bush: Privilege and Power
• 10:44 Gregory Green's Violent History
• 18:53 The Bush "Suicide" and Police Corruption
• 27:52 Ted Lamborghini and the Pedophile Ring
• 33:17 North Fox Island and the Boys Camp
• 44:02 The Police Connection and Cover-ups
• 53:08 Final Theories and Killer Profile
• 58:59 Case Card and Episode Closing

Transcript

Courtney: 0:00

It feels like it's very early because of Daylight Savings Time happening here, and also I feel like every Daylight Savings Time, I have this rant about how Daylight Savings Time is stupid because it literally doesn't do anything. Okay.

Hannah: 0:23

Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.

Courtney: 0:30

Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us. This is. Wicked Wanderings hello hannah, hello corny. We are back for another episode of the oakland county child killer so fucking time again.

Courtney: 1:03

If you haven't listened to our last episode from last week, you'll definitely want to go back and listen to part one. That's going to be the part all about the different victims and the evidence, kind of, before we jump into the very scrambled list of suspects and how they're all interwebbed. I will also put another trigger warning on this. It does involve children and the killing of children. I'm keeping things very, very, very, very discreet when it comes to things like sexual assault, but that is included in here. So if that is something that is challenging for you, I would recommend just pausing and waiting for our next episode to come out.

Courtney: 1:34

So, while there are many suspects, I am probably the most excited to talk about Christopher Bush. So Christopher Bush is the son of the cfo for general motors, so immediately privileged yes, I'm thinking money, I'm thinking access, I'm thinking power at his disposal. His family had been rumored to have even paid off families after being molested by their son in the past. So oh god, like right off the bat, we're starting like I bet it was that guy. So yes, and he's got connections that are gonna lead him all over the place. You're starting like I bet it was that guy, so, yes, and he's got connections that are going to lead him all over the place. You're going to keep hearing christopher bush, christopher bush, christopher bush, everywhere. Fun fact, he was given a polygraph and it was the only one a prosecutor was present for, like pretty much ever at that time, which is interesting yeah somebody must have known that there was something there.

Courtney: 2:25

Um and his own family paid and administered a private polygraph that was actually buried in evidence and it was specific to just mark's death, which is important. He failed it, but the world wouldn't know that until 30 years later. Again, I know if you've listened to the first episode you're like oh my god, corny, fast forward, this is scrambled, this is all over the place, because it seems like there was evidence of police corruption and there was definitely evidence of people hiding evidence. Um, so you're gonna hear a lot of things like oh yep, but this we didn't know about at the time. So we did not know that he failed that polygraph test until 30 years later. So 20 years ago.

Hannah: 2:57

Also, is there a connection? Because doesn't general motors like supply, almost like every police cruiser known a man?

Courtney: 3:04

and that's an an interesting one that I actually didn't look into, but I'm sure that it was. And even I know last episode Hannah and I, kind of at the end, were like spitballing talking about all these different theories that just she and I had and we were thinking about if someone had access to power, someone had access to money, and then why would the police protect someone?

Hannah: 3:30

Well, if they're that powerful and they have that much money, maybe money's lining somebody's pocket. Well, and also, when you talked about the, the girls and the boys were obviously in different places. I mean, if you have money and power, you obviously have real estate and probably empty factory basements that may not be being used right concrete.

Courtney: 3:41

Yeah, so he was already being pursued for molestation charges from his family home, along along with another associate named Gregory Green, who we'll get into later, and Gregory had told the police that Christopher Gregory Green because he's also on the suspect list for the obvious reason that we just talked about. After all of that goes down like the two of them are trying to turn on each other. Chris goes free, gregory gets charged and sentenced for life. That's all you need to know right now. So, of course, money and power Chris is from money and power, greg is from absolutely nothing he got wait, he got charged and put for life, not for the killing for something else.

Hannah: 4:27

That we'll get into when we talk about.

Courtney: 4:29

Okay, so they were talking about molestation charges for something else. Okay, they do this a lot, apparently. So march 4th 1977, chris was bonded out for the charges. 12 days later, timothy king was abducted. Six days later his body was found. So okay, yeah he gets out 12 days later goes by, timothy is abducted six days later, his body is found so greg is not out. So green could not have done timothy, because green was in prison yeah, but chris, chris could have so.

Courtney: 4:59

Later, green's cellmate tells everyone in prison that he claimed to have gotten away with killing four children. So how did green do that if chris was the only one who was out? Three days into the time that timothy was being held captive, somebody reported seeing chris with two minors at his lake house his family lake house. Uh, the tip was called in but the detective was away. So nobody was dispatched to the cottage and the message was delivered to the detective much too late, after timothy's body was already found, because the detective was on vacation um, isn't there someone that's taking his calls when he's on vacation?

Hannah: 5:31

you would think what you would think if you had open cases like that. You're like I understand everyone needs a break. I get that, but no one's covering your damn case why not apparently, not so literally?

Courtney: 5:44

the timothy has been missing for three days, then the detective goes on vacation someone calls in a tip to say, hey, this guy who we know has been molesting little boys, who was out for you know, shruggy, who knows why, was seen with minors, which he's obviously not allowed to do, given the fact that even if you weren't fully charged, you're probably still going to be some kind of sexual offender and didn't get it. So they dropped the ball on that big time. Yeah Well, fast forward a little bit for Chris Major douche canoe, but we will lead with the fact that he was found dead in his home. Big shock here. Everyone's becoming found dead. At this point.

Courtney: 6:20

He had been shot through the head with a 22. Ok, this point. He had been shot through the head with a 22. Okay, a long gun, for anyone who's listening, a long gun, 22 caliber shotgun. Was immediately ruled suicide, despite the fact that he was completely enveloped in his bedding in his head, shot through the forehead, which is pretty challenging to do with a long gun. Yeah, no, you couldn't do that. No blunts, no bloods, better, none. How do you get shot anywhere without bloods? Better, and no gun residue was found on his hands. Okay, also, four bullet casings were found, but only one shot had been fired.

Hannah: 6:57

Okay just to clarify the person that was quote-unquote suicide yeah was green. No, green was jail.

Courtney: 7:04

Yeah, this was the police officer flin, okay, so sorry I'm following.

Hannah: 7:09

This is a lot of names.

Courtney: 7:10

This is christopher bush, who's okay. His father was the cfo for general, so and christopher's very important in this because he links everything everywhere. Two different reports out there about the gun's placement. When found, both note that he shot himself, which is interesting.

Hannah: 7:25

So the gun was left then, yeah, it was still there, but there's no, okay, if you know anything about guns and I'm not anything about guns, but I know things about guns.

Courtney: 7:34

You cannot do that there I mean and and they did get into the book like there are ways that you could fire a weapon right with the assistance of other things, like putting something around the trigger and pulling it or something if you're gonna kill yourself court, why would you pick a long gun? Unless it was the only thing you had access to. That's the only thing I could think of. Right, if you don't have access to anything, I mean I wouldn't pick a gun anyways, but anyways so that's another conversation.

Courtney: 7:59

Five cotton swabs were completed, five of his hands, but there was no gunshot residue found, which tells me you didn't fire the weapon you didn't. So that's like forensics 101, you would think you would think so. After he was found dead, I remember green gregory was sentenced to life in prison. Those killings stopped and the task force that they dedicated to the work was disbanded. So they thought that it was them, but they didn't come out and say that. Because why would you disband an entire task force that you put up and it's not considered solved dude? It's not considered solved dude.

Hannah: 8:36

The police really fucked up on this one, a hundred percent so obviously being bought or or threatened or something, because that's just correct in 2008, so more recently.

Courtney: 8:46

I mean 2008 was a while ago, but more recently that's when I graduated high school, wasn't that?

Courtney: 8:51

long ago, a victim of christopher's testified that he had firsthand evidence that timothy king was linked. He alleged that he saw a picture of timothy that christopher showed him when he was being held. He also said he was forced into sexual acts with someone who looked like timothy and that he was present when chris dropped him off at ted lamborghini's home. This narrative report was not released to the press. Both bush and green were dead by this time, and ted lamborghini is a number, a name you'll want to remember because he comes into play again later on too. So you're gonna start seeing all these people are connecting. I need, like a map, a map tree, something. I read it and I need a map. So all of that is going on. Now you've got, decades later, somebody saying, hey, I was a victim who was molested by chris bush and I was forced into sexual acts with somebody who looked like timothy.

Courtney: 9:38

But I obviously uh male male which does go along with the male, and you're gonna find that from basically after we're done talking about the suspects, where two of them are female, everything we talk about with children is gonna go right to male everything, everything else, all of the molestation, all of that goes right to so either they chose girls because they looked like males, or they were trying to throw off the scent Right, or, if it was a sex ring, they had to Clientele made it want it?

Courtney: 10:10

Yeah, thank you. That was trying to, but those kids were not sexually assaulted, so what did they want them for? Just the pictures. And the problem also becomes that one of the girls was the one who was held longest, which is interesting. Why was she gone for so long if she didn't serve the function you needed for that long?

Hannah: 10:27

Also now I'm thinking did that detective go on vacation because he was told to? And make sure no one's covering your case.

Courtney: 10:34

Yeah, maybe he was involved. Maybe he was right down the street.

Hannah: 10:37

My brain hurts, courtney, so some other, some other things, can we?

Courtney: 10:41

solve this Like I want to solve this Some other things. Can we solve this like I want to solve this? Some other things that I reflected on, and I know because in my notes I put reflection meaning like. After I read the book I was like what, oh, I like that. Um, the medical. It's about the medical examiner who examined chris when he was found in his home shot to death. Dr robert sillery, who completed the autopsy, was actually investigated two years after his report that he did for chris for providing fraudulent autopsy results. In a different case it was suspected that he had taken money for bribes and led to him ultimately being suspended from practicing. So two years is not that long of a window. So how do we not think that?

Courtney: 11:19

that's what happened to also, what is really interesting and I didn't put this in my notes, but I'm remembering it, brain power is that the way that the chain of evidence typically goes is like if something is, if something is used in a crime, like if there was a crime in your, your house and that box was the murder weapon, they would not let you be like I have a special attachment to that box, I need to have access to it and keep it at all times.

Courtney: 11:43

Yeah, right, sorry, chris's dad was able to keep the murder weapon. He had custody of it the whole time. It never left the home. And it just tells me that the police Sure, mr General Motors Right, of course you could keep it. The police who reported to that house knew him very well, because why else would you have been like, oh yeah, that's fine. I think that, and another theory that I have is that potentially the father was the one who was involved in all that and he was making his son be the scapegoat, and then he killed his son off when he started to catch on.

Hannah: 12:12

So this might not be a universal opinion, and but it is always something I think about. Like, when we talk about people that molest and hurt children, it doesn't just come out of the blue. No, there has to be a nature and nurture component to it, right?

Courtney: 12:27

and I know you talked about this because of mark, people were assaulted in their past right. So of course it would make sense if his father molested him right if the father is involved, or just, in my opinion, like if the father was giving him money to fund his lifestyle, to be like, hey, I'm doing these things and I need you to be the person who's in charge of them because I'm too prominent.

Hannah: 12:46

If you're going to do this, then you need to do it.

Courtney: 12:48

high end style Right because there's just no way that all of that is related. Barry, who remember was the victim, tim's father, he really believed that Green was in jail at the time of his like he was in jail at the time of his son's murder and at the end, when I was actually researching, it was determined by the Michigan State Police that that could have been incorrect. He was determined that he could have been out on bond at the time that Timothy was killed, even though their own record said that it wasn't. So really, and this is where I want to get into talking about Green, because then I was like, okay, we got to go back. At first I was like OK, green's an accessory, he doesn't really need to be included.

Courtney: 13:23

I will say again, major Douche Canoe died in prison in 1995, allegedly of a heart attack when he was 47. So some background information on Mr Gregory Green. He was described as violent, a loose cannon, hostile, unpredictable. He was born into less fortunate circumstances than Chris and was bitter about the contrast that the two received for punishment for linked crimes, which I think is justified, because I will say as much as I don't want to have the back of a man who molests children. I do think that you know the fact that one of you has money and one of you doesn't doesn't mean that there should be a difference.

Courtney: 13:54

Yeah, no I totally agree with that. So when he was arrested with Bush, he had already been on probation for charges related to sexual assault of children in California. So he had been granted a suspended sentence and allowed to leave the state to complete his probation. So before he even knew Chris, he was already molesting children In California. He admitted to molesting and assaulting hundreds of children aged 6 to 14. That's why I said major douche to you.

Courtney: 14:19

Hundreds? Yeah, that was an estimate, I'm sorry, what? So he was working with a pedophile friend who ran a children's baseball league who, in exchange for coaching, he would bring him children to molest.

Hannah: 14:30

Stop Court. Yeah, yep, I literally want to vomit. I'm not kidding, it's a lot, it's a lot.

Courtney: 14:36

I'm trying to keep it as discreet as possible for everybody so you can learn just the facts. These poor babies learn just the the facts babies. One boy who had become uncooperative good for him during his molestation good for him was strangled until he couldn't breathe. The boy did survive, but this method links directly to the methods of the oakland county child killer and I do think that it's also important to highlight here and this I realized after the fact this child who was strangled but survived, he called 911 and got him help.

Courtney: 15:09

So like there's a compassion piece here which makes me think about could Green have been the one who killed those other kids? Because of the compassion piece of like one he was underprivileged himself. Okay, so he's trying to help these children, he was caring for the children, which makes me think, okay, it's kind of like how he felt badly about help these children, he was caring for the children, which makes me think, okay, it's kind of like how he felt badly about the child that he strangled. Um, so, interestingly, when he was arrested he was found to be in possession of a police issued scanner and a radio. He was confirmed later to have been a confidential narcotics informant for the huntington beach police department. Another link to the police did you need that green?

Hannah: 15:44

yeah, so, and that was out in california, but he was still linked to a police department in california another thing I thought of if the child was strangled and it didn't work, maybe they're like we don't want that to happen again and that's why that girl was shot in the head. Okay, okay, yeah, like we can't let that happen again not again.

Courtney: 16:10

So after confessing to those acts that he had committed in california, he was committed to a psychiatric hospital in california for one year only oh, is that how long it takes to just cure people, like one year after his release he moved to michigan and linked up with christopher bush. One year after his release, the oakland county child killer murders began and there's no internet like how the do you find these people?

Hannah: 17:20

I don't want to know that comes in later too.

Courtney: 17:23

So november 15th 1976, that's a month before jill's gonna go missing. So you're looking at between the first and the second victim. A juvenile runaway report was cleared when it was determined that the boy had spent six days at green's house hidden in a concealed attic room while he worked.

Courtney: 17:40

No charges were filed against green court no so then we've got how, later later on in life, green cellmate in prison reports that he claimed to have gotten away with killing four children. I mean, people in prison say stuff, so you know whatever they're gonna say, whatever to get attention but it doesn't sound like green has anything to lose not really, not really at all, and then he just died in prison.

Courtney: 18:03

But I think it's important to acknowledge that they're all connected. So so far you've got Christopher Bush, who's got the money, the power, the influence, dead, who was linked to Gregory Green, who was already molesting children before he met Chris Bush, who was also already molesting children. So they're, you know, birds of a feather. So the two of them, feasibly they're my top pick. For who I think did this, I will say that I'm going to talk about someone named Vincent Gunnels, and I have him kind of asterisked because I don't necessarily think that Vincent really should have been looked at as closely as he was, I guess.

Courtney: 18:41

So Vincent was molested by Christopher Bush and there are beliefs that his mother paid him off. But like, did she pay him off to be silent about the murders? Also, did he know something? Wait, bush's mom paid off Vincent's, yeah, because he was molested by her son. So, wait, the mom is on this too. They pretty much, it seemed like, were always out of the country, always like doing their own thing, leaving Chris home, I think, and I'm trying to think like no, I wanted to try to be devil's advocate and think like, ok, you're aware that your kid does things you don't want to know about, so you're trying to just like do your best as a parent, but I feel like at that point your best as a parent is to put him behind bars and let him be there.

Hannah: 19:19

I mean you have to be a failure really at that point. Being a failure really at that point you live with your guilt. Honestly, at that point I because I just don't think there's any way court that you're just born that way. No, I don't think there has to be another.

Courtney: 19:31

Something has to happen to you in order to to kind of get that way. So vincent's cellmate from prison testified in 2009, after gunnels was already released. He was already released back out into the world. His crimes I don't remember exactly what they were, but they were not as severe, obviously, as other people's that he had spoken to him about being molested by a man who was a child killer. So this is Vincent's cellmate is saying Vincent told him that he was molested by a child serial killer who we know to be chris bush. They found a dna match on a hair between him and christine the victim. When he was questioned about it, he refused to look at the photograph of christine. He was imprisoned again but eventually released in february 2011 with no charges related to the occk against him. So I'm thinking that vincent was somebody who was weaker, who was molested by chris, who was aware of what happened, but I don't think he. He's a victim too. I mean, he was being molested. He's a victim too.

Hannah: 20:31

Do you know what he was in?

Courtney: 20:31

jail, for I probably do have it someplace. I wouldn't be shocked if it comes back later on, and this is where things get really messy In in the suspect list. So I sorry.

Hannah: 20:47

One more thing.

Courtney: 20:48

So there was a hair, like I'm just processing, there was a hair so that was in 2009 is when they were able to link a hair between him and christine not necessarily that it was vincent's hair on christine a hair that proved a link between them. And you're to see that a lot where these people are related because, like you and I are in our car, we were in your car this morning.

Hannah: 21:10

Yeah.

Courtney: 21:10

I'm going to get tea, right? Rob has been in your car before, right? I could end up committing a crime with Rob's hair on me, but Rob wasn't part of it. You know what I'm saying.

Hannah: 21:19

But, but could it also be like if, since Vincent was also like, he was a victim, a victim, right. Couldn't that be like they were just brought to the same spot?

Courtney: 21:31

Could have been. There's a lot. There's a lot that's there, and I think the fact that when they, when they asked him about Christine and they showed the photograph and he refused to look at it, it made me wonder myself if there was some child pornography done between male victims and female victims and if he was like, I know what I had to do to that girl and I don't want to think about it right doesn't mean you're guilty it just means like you're grossed out immediately.

Hannah: 21:56

That's what I thought. I. I thought the same exact thing. That does not mean you're guilty.

Courtney: 21:59

It just means, like you have a conscience, like I remember what I had to do or what I went through, and I but they're groomed, and you have to remember when all that happened it was in the 70s, so it's a very different mental health type of thing too. I don't know how much was believed about like ptsd, and if you've been through something you know what I mean, you know what I just thought of.

Hannah: 22:17

This might be a little off track here, but do you remember going to the mall? And yeah, you would always like hey, you look great for one of our child bottle.

Courtney: 22:26

Blah, blah I wonder if they were like sex trafficking.

Hannah: 22:28

I think about that a lot I mean, I know a couple times like my mom was like no, no, you're not photographing my child. But I'm pretty sure there was one point like I did get photographed, like, granted, I did have my clothes on, but it was sketchy as all get out, because they come get you in the middle of the mall and then you go down like these weird alley things to like an empty room well, and this is totally unrelated, but I I've even seen like people on tiktok again.

Courtney: 22:51

You know I'll caution you. If you're seeing things on tiktok, check the references on. That doesn't mean they're true, but people who are talking about like hotels and like disneyland that have like access to rooms where there's children staying and then they go into these places where it's like a dungeon and I. I don't have firsthand knowledge, if that's correct. Yeah, but it really doesn't seem far-fetched to me for where we're at with the world, unfortunately well, I appreciate that my mom was like a little more.

Hannah: 23:14

Uh, I'm not overbearing, that's not the word I'm looking for, but just like protective like, yeah, fuck you, you're not. I don't know who you are. You are not photographing my child.

Courtney: 23:22

It's also very beautiful it's very weird, but I feel like I mean, we talked about a lot with, like, danny croto case. Yeah, like you think that there's this person who's taking an interest in your child and they're there to help and maybe you, you know, you're a single parent or whatever, you don't have the time to do the thing, or you're just like, wow, this person's being really nice. I feel like I'm always thinking about especially working with kids like why is that person right being nice, right, right yeah, which, by the way, I think his death date is coming.

Courtney: 23:46

It is, isn't it, april I, I thought it was april. We have to go see. We have to go visit him.

Courtney: 23:51

Yes, I'm gonna look him up while you keep talking so now we're going to talk about someone named richard lawson, I will say, also deceased at age 66, ironically only six years into his life sentence for killing a cabbie. He, you know, unfortunately only died six years into that sentence. So he made a formal statement to the police that lamborghini another person that we'll talk about, um showed him pornographic images of a boy who resembled tim and that he could identify a man in the photo with him. But he would not give it up, give up that name, unless he was going to get immunity. So he kept it as a chip, and what I really want to highlight here is the first time I was like yes, please. They did not offer him any kind of deal. They were like that's great, you keep that name to yourself, we're not giving you immunity.

Courtney: 24:35

Yeah, yeah, 20 years ago maybe even longer at this point I have to check the date on the book but he had called Barry King, timothy's father, from prison to request that he come and talk to him, and Barry never went, but he did alert the police that this person made contact with him.

Courtney: 24:49

In 2012, this man contacted Barry again, but this time by letter, and so he did not go, but he sent his attorney out to visit him in jail and he reported that he and a man named Bobby Moore used to quote unquote get boys for H Lee Bush, who was Christopher's father. So yeah, november of 2009,. Barry disclosed that a man named Tim Nummer, who knew his son, reported that in 1992 he had sold clothes to some cops at a retail store and when he asked casually about timmy's case, they said, oh, that's been solved. He was killed by the son of some auto exec who was turned in by his attorney. Tim number offered later on to go public with this statement and when he did, the reporter, state prosecutor and state police all failed to follow up on his statement. So there's your police involvement again, and while I do feel like, like Richard Lawson, played a small role, he again is showing a connection between Lamborghini and the Bush family and he's reaching out specifically to one of the victim's families, so he's connecting himself back in too.

Hannah: 26:01

So did those cops just kind of talk out of place Like, oh yeah, we already know who did it?

Courtney: 26:06

And even such I mean even if that is the case the right thing to do would have been to follow up on it. Plus, the case is clearly not solved. I mean the amount of media coverage this thing has gotten. I'm sure it was like newspaper article after newspaper article after newspaper article.

Hannah: 26:21

I'm sure it was plastered everywhere. I I kind of want the bushes for this.

Courtney: 26:23

This just it feels it feels right yeah, and I feel like and I kind of told myself after I had read like probably halfway through the book I was like you know what, if the bushes aren't the person whose hand actually did the crime, I still feel like they should have gotten accessory they know more than they they knew how to get what they wanted, in my opinion, and play different people against to use them for money so the podcast you were listening to like, did they have a particular suspect that they or suspects that they liked?

Courtney: 26:53

for the crime? You know, not really. And and so what I did notice the common uh denominator between podcasts for the oakland county child killer was that they were all pretty much late. They were all laid out differently. I think this one included is laid out very differently, um, but they were also none of them used the source that I did, which I liked, um, yeah, but they also all kind of were about like an hour and a half or two hours in length, and I feel like they all kind of left with that same like what. Like how did this guy or this person get away with this? Um, and I think what it comes down to is like did I mean, if people can see it, did you really get away with it? Like, let's say, chris bush did it? Did he really get away with it? Because he kind of got his anyways, I mean, I feel bad that the families didn't get their their closure.

Hannah: 27:39

But I do know like obviously his came in the end anyways, at least the one thing that the families did get was the bodies were covered.

Courtney: 27:46

It's not like they're just wondering and they were cared for, I think, the fact that the bodies were not, like, mutilated other than than poor jill, yeah, yeah yeah, so I know I've I've made promise that we're going to talk about somebody named ted lambergine, um, but here he is. So at the time of the book he was 75 and was serving three life sentences for unrelated crimes in michigan.

Courtney: 28:07

So just, a great great citizen right there some some things about mr ted that I thought were important, and there were a lot of things. Um, he refused to take a polygraph in the Oakland County child killer case, opting instead for a life sentence, which seems kind of sus to me.

Hannah: 28:23

It does seem sus, but I also don't even like lie detectors.

Courtney: 28:25

I don't really work all the time I don't either, but the fact that you would flat out refuse it makes me a little like, hmm, I mean, would you do one? I mean, would you do one? I mean, if I was going to be, if I was offered a different deal for taking one or a life sentence for something I didn't do? Yeah, probably, probably give it a shot. He laid low until Richard Lawson testified about his involvement in the Cass Corridor pedophile ring and also as the Oakland County child killer. In 2005, he was taken into custody for the involvement in the Cass Corridor situation, so he did go down for that. In 2007, he confessed to using money, drugs and food to lure young boys into being abducted into homes, hotel rooms and a bicycle shop where they were sexually assaulted and used to make pornographic pictures which were sold.

Courtney: 29:13

Gross Gross. Prior to that sentencingencing, he failed a polygraph test, so he did end up taking one. He was offered a 15-year stay in a more cushy federal prison if he confessed to his involvement, but he turned the deal down saying only I have been forgiven. What the fuck does that mean? So let's, let's, before we get into the pedophile ring, let's, let's, list out ted Lambergine's crimes for everyone shall we?

Hannah: 29:38

I'm sorry, like what the fuck does that mean?

Courtney: 29:40

I have no idea. He said a lot of things that were very like. I'm okay.

Hannah: 29:44

And we're like what the fuck does that even mean? Right?

Courtney: 29:47

So his total crimes. He had a life sentence for 14 convictions of criminal sexual conduct, 12 of which stemmed from summer 1976, only months before the first OCCK murders began.

Hannah: 29:59

Gross.

Courtney: 30:00

Two additional criminal sexual conduct charges with a person under 13,. The last offense date listed as 12-31-1980, which is three years after the last known murder on a holiday during the winter.

Hannah: 30:14

That's New Year's Eve Okay eve, okay, but court. So I thought we wanted the bushes for this, but they're all connected. So you think just lamborghini's just part of this sex ring? Yes, so they're all fucking guilty and they all deserve to go to hell.

Courtney: 30:29

So what I think is really interesting is there's there's a guy named gerald richards, so let's, let's talk about gerald richards I don't know if I can add another person.

Hannah: 30:39

Court in my brain I'm aware.

Courtney: 30:40

I'm aware it's really hard. So he is a mid-30s gym teacher for saint joseph's catholic elementary oh no, I have no, the catholics don't know no he offered to provide boys camp in exchange for helping with his election pamphlets. So he brought the children to a small local airport, flew them to north fox island, a three-day trip that involved being molested by gerald richards and frank sheldon yeah, um, first of all, gym teacher like yeah, but like you're gonna pay for all these boys yeah yeah.

Courtney: 31:12

So this guy is a real creep. I mean he's like a certified creep. I even put that in my notes. Like my notes say this guy is a real creep. I mean he's like a certified creep. I even put that in my notes. Like my notes say this guy is a real creep. Um, he had been reported to stare at the school boys, pat their butts and even measure their penises for athletic purposes. Okay, so there's, there were signs. There were signs that this man should not have been near children but he had great access to them, right, because he was a was a teacher.

Hannah: 31:33

Yeah, in a Catholic school, but like because, oh, if you're in a Catholic school you must be a person of God. That is not a person of God.

Courtney: 31:39

No this person was not.

Hannah: 31:40

So how did he get away with all that? But like, how did he get away with that?

Courtney: 31:51

And we're not even done. Courtney, my brain hurts. I know I'm a break. I was up last night. I need everyone on the Wanderers to know. Sidebar here for a minute. I have been researching this case since it's been a while. I'm like January.

Hannah: 32:05

It's been a while. It's actually one of my favorite songs.

Courtney: 32:07

I was about to start singing it and then I just had a total brain fart. But yeah, since, like january, and this has kept me up so many nights where I'm like last night alone I'm googling, I'm googling, I'm googling, I'm looking, I'm searching, there's a lot, there's a lot here. So at least two occurrences are known in the summer of 1976, where he and frank molested children, either at a hotel or at frank sheldon's home. Okay, so this camp had two directors. They were Frank and Gerald. Ok, a 15 year old boy who assisted with recruitment, named Michael, was also molested and could report many instances at varying locations, some even involving other minors.

Courtney: 32:46

So what was the purpose of the camp? The camp was to create photographs and videos of child pornography to dispense to those who quote unquote donated to their cause. So the client list equals their sponsor list, which is important because the sponsors were paying for this camp, because they were the clients. That's disgusting. When richards was brought in for questioning, he was a total wreck on the verge of a breakdown. Frank, meanwhile, flew away on a private jet, never to be seen or heard from again. Where'd the private jet come from? The bushes, probably the airport. That's exactly what I was thinking so. Somehow, despite knowing he was in the netherlands, frank, he escaped to the netherlands. Nobody tried to extradite him. They were never trying to do anything, even with fbi involvement, which is important so wait, I'm sorry, isn Isn't the Netherlands like?

Hannah: 33:36

isn't Amsterdam part of that? There's the red light district, I think so, where there's a lot of trafficking.

Courtney: 33:41

Yep. So some sources noted that he died in the late 90s and some speculate that he just took on another identity and continued to live on, which I'm hypothesizing was probably related to other crimes. Again, I'm assuming some shit blew up in his face again and he moved on. Yep, so march 1976, richard gives a testimony to the crimes for a deal with leniency. No, the timing of this one as it relates to mark fuck, mark right. When police received a warrant to search frank's ann arbor home, it was vacant and the film that Richards testified was no longer in the filing cabinets. They were mostly just empty and sitting there. So they finally get into this guy's house because they had to get a search warrant, even though he left and he went to the Netherlands. They get in there and, surprise, surprise, this man literally flew away with all of the porn. I'm assuming he just took it to another country and continued, under a new name, to give it to the same clients, right?

Hannah: 34:37

that's kind of what I would assume well, it's not like he's taking a usb drive like right.

Courtney: 34:40

He's taking literally rolls and suitcases of film. So this leads to multiple known child sex offenders being investigated. One, referred to as lindsey, was investigated and he stated that he didn't know frank, but the pornography found in the home and receipts of donations painted a clear picture of his involvement. Those records were destroyed by police instead of entered as evidence, because they destroyed it thinking that they were protecting the children.

Courtney: 35:07

Quote unquote okay, my mouth is like don't get me wrong as a person who works with children, I totally understand that your first instinct is I'm gonna, I going to destroy this, because I don't want anybody to ever see this again, and I think that after they found them, they should have destroyed that. However, with it having a link directly to somebody, why would you have destroyed it and not just locked it up someplace?

Hannah: 35:29

Right and I get what you're saying, or did somebody? Destroy it because they were afraid someone else in the police department was going to sell it again I, I get that those are all great reasons, but like, if you're going to find that, then you know what other children are affected by this and you can help them. So it's like, yes, you don't want to see this evil, but like, unless you see the evil, you can't help. Yeah, yeah.

Courtney: 35:50

So now you're probably thinking where did gerald richards up the psych ward to await his trial? He confessed to secret ownership of a medical clinic natural medicine, so he wasn't a doctor in a place called Port Huron, which later came up when a young girl testified to the FBI that she watched her father and others that she called a rich man rape and kill a few people in a doctor's office which could have been this natural medical office, and she witnessed a police officer being present during those rapes. Eventually he pled guilty and was sentenced between uh to two to twenty years in prison. He served 10 and was back living in michigan by the late 1980s I mean court.

Hannah: 36:29

It kind of makes sense why this hasn't been solved yet there's the police involvement that, and there's so many people involved. This isn't just one killer, it's not.

Courtney: 36:37

There's so many people involved in this and then I do think it's important to note that june 10th of 1976 the tennessee bureau of criminal identification outlined a link between boys farm, which is another camp similar, and several major sponsors that were residing in the detroit area. So conveniently the names were omitted from the official logs, but somebody in a different state did identify that there were people who were doing these things this isn't like.

Hannah: 37:07

This isn't like a, like a bundy. I know I'm bringing him up again, but like that was a one-man deal.

Courtney: 37:11

Yeah you, this is messy and I think that it's also important to talk about. There was a doctor, Dr Bruce Danto. So Christine's body was found on. Bruce Lane was the name of the street that it was found on and people believe that the killer was trying to use the name Bruce Lane to connect to Bruce Danto, the psychiatrist. They believed he was trying to use it as some kind of way to gain clout or to like to make it look like the doctor was being incriminated. So danto was explicitly known for doing studies about violence and he was an area psychiatrist so he was well known. So it almost looked like somebody was trying to be like look at these violent things happening and they're on bruce lane. So another way that they were kind of like mind fucking with people yeah, it's not kind of a stretch, though like even if that's what they're on Bruce Lane.

Hannah: 37:54

So another way that they were kind of like mind fucking with people.

Courtney: 37:55

Yeah, it's not kind of a stretch, though, like even if that's what they're doing, I mean that's kind of how I felt, which is why I kind of like threw it at the end, because I was like I mean it's worth noting. Yeah, a mysterious package arrived at the doctor's home with a note from allegedly the Oakland County child killer's roommate. The letter was typed and claimed to explain why the killer attacks children and that he is a vietnam vet. And they signed it just from alan. They bugged danto's phone and when alan called requesting a meeting to grant his immunity, they sent danto with an undercover cop. Someone approached the cop at this gay bar that they were going to because alan suggested the place and he shut him down so that the cop is undercover. He gets hit on by a gay man. They speculate that alan got away because the cop couldn't put on a convincing act and let the man just hit on him at the gay bar because they. So alan quote, unquote never showed up.

Courtney: 38:41

But I believe that it was the guy who approached the cop trying to hit on him, and so there's a lot of speculation about alan where it's like, was he real? Was it somebody who was just a hoax? Because obviously that happens where people write in and they try to like get attention and do all these things? Yeah, and I don't really know. I mean, I think that from what I understand, there was no roommate of any of the suspects that I am aware of and wasn't really super talked about. Probably they would have made that connection pretty easily, and what I will say is so after I read the book I was kind of like okay, let me look and see what's like recent in the news. Sometimes things come up years later and obviously those are worth noting which they have on certain cases.

Hannah: 39:21

we've done Right, so in 2013,.

Courtney: 39:24

A new suspect enters the chat. His name is archibald, otherwise known as arch sloan sounds rich yeah, he does, archibald. I love that name, but neat archibald gossip girl.

Hannah: 39:37

Xoxo, gossip girl. You know, you love me. Oh, that was really good, I should do gossip by the way wanders like we do, like gossip girls, we like re-watch it.

Courtney: 39:47

We're weird it's a comfort. It is a comfort show when we're all done watching serial killer movies. So Archibald Sloan was incarcerated since 1983 for sex crimes against boys. Of course, similar to Chris Bush and Gregory Green, he had a lengthy list of crimes, beginning with indecent exposure at around 19 and leading to rape and sexual assault, you know so on in his 20s. Assault, you know so, on in his 20s. So he escalated pretty quickly. He did some time on. His first sex charges was out in Detroit in 1975. He was working at service stations, so gas stations, and he was living not far from the spot where Mark Stebbins was dropped in Southfield.

Courtney: 40:23

At the time of the Oakland County child killer murder investigation he was given a polygraph and allegedly passed given by the same person who did Chris Bush and Gregory Green their polygraphs, and they were both found to be faulty. So I'm like if both of those polygraphs were found to be faulty and the same guy did this guy's, you know okay. So despite this, they searched his car even though he had failed the polygraph. So, like now you're talking about, they're just doing things kind of recklessly. So despite it, they searched his car and combed for evidence a vehicle that did not match the vehicle description related to the crimes. By the way, not at all the hairs that were found. They were not submitted until 2013. So to determine that they're what? Yeah, yeah, they weren't submitted. Don't ask why Surprised they still fucking had them. Probably, yeah, surprised they still fucking had them probably yeah.

Hannah: 41:11

Who even knows if they're the same ones or if?

Courtney: 41:12

they pulled. Yeah, exactly at this point they were determined that mitochondrial matches to the hair found on both mark and tim's body. So this hair that was a match did not belong to sloan or to vincent gunnels. It must have been to someone else who had been in the car nearby to them, which I know I talked about when we talked about vin Gunnels too. So it was determined that this suspect is linked to the murderer and might even know who it is, but that he is likely not the killer. Links from him to Lamborghini and Lawson are also assumed based on his child sex crimes. It was likely he was connected to Chris Bush also. So you're talking about all these people I'm trying to figure out. So earlier on we also talked about and this is kind of like a just keep this in the back of your head so we talked about the boy named Sebastian and how he had talked to one police officer who you know ended up killed. Well, there's another policeman who was related to that as well, who was found dead of a suicide Of course, in a church parking lot in his car.

Courtney: 42:12

A nun and a priest reported seeing two people in the darkness in a blue car hours before he was found. Two guns found in the car were a police issued weapon to him, so his own and a 44 caliber that was registered to his partner and found on the passenger side floor. There was no gunshot residue test in the final police report. The date of death was November 14th 1978. Two gunshot wounds to the chest, two different guns, two people observed in the car, no residue on his own hands. Remember November 22nd 1978, chris Bush was found shot to death with a rifle shot to the forehead, completely tucked into bed and ruled a suicide, and no residue on his own hands. The medical examiner estimated four days before was the date that he died. So if he was found on november 22nd and four days before was the 18th, that means that officer flynn and chris bush were killed within four days of each other and both ruled a suicide with no gunshot residue on either of their hands bullshit.

Courtney: 43:09

So you're talking. I just put that in there as a way to paint like there's clearly some corruption going on, oh, absolutely. And Officer Flynn was not a suspect, so he was just somebody who must have known too much. And as it relates back to Sebastian talking to him, it makes sense he knew too much and so they killed him off. And it seems to be a pattern that whenever somebody knows too much they kill them off, which is why I think none of the other books were ever finished it.

Hannah: 43:32

Just. It boggles my mind that, as a person with experience right dealing with dead bodies, you can put suicide on these, these death certificates. And how did they allow that?

Courtney: 43:43

that's the other part, like there had to have been a whole corrupt system in place to do that, because otherwise I'm just not sure, like if we were working together it's 101 court, like there's no gun charge.

Hannah: 43:56

We know, and we haven't taken any classes on forensics, it's just from like basic knowledge.

Courtney: 44:03

That's so upsetting it's upsetting, it's sad, it's very sad and it's such like an unjust case that I feel like that's why I'm having a hard time letting it go myself, where I'm like I kept digging and digging and digging. What I did appreciate that was kind of at the end of the book, again in my reflection section. I like that you do that. The author talks about how Dr Nicholas Groth from the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons completed a profile for the killer which I thought was interesting. Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons completed a profile for the killer, which I thought was interesting. So I'm going to read through the profile and then I'm going to tell you what the authors take on it and I'm going to see if you agree and that's how we're going to close out our episode and we'll see how it goes.

Hannah: 44:41

So it's a big opening where, at the end, isn't it?

Courtney: 44:43

It's just yeah it's a big, big, big, vast black hole. Yeah, I've got nine things that dr groth was able to determine in his profile of the killer. Okay. So the first one was the killer was intelligent but with no formal education, which I agree with. I think that makes sense. The second was the killer was not of a moneyed background or esteemed social standing okay. The third was the killer was not in a position of authority in the workplace the power piece. Four the killer had a previous record of criminal activity for violence just beneath the degree of violence now being perpetrated by him, so insinuating that he kind of got away. Whoever it was, they kind of got away. Five the sex of the child was less relevant to the killer than the age of the child, which I definitely agree with as well. Six the cleansing of the bodies was in service to purification which I agree.

Courtney: 45:36

I would agree with that seven, while mark had been struck on the head, no violence other than sexual was inflicted on his body, suggesting that it was a reaction and not intended. The same can be concluded about jill and the shotgun blast, which I 100 agree with. Eight, the positioning of mark and christine was interpreted as ritualistic because they had, like, a folded, relaxed position about them. And then nine, the killer's fair treatment of the children suggested a lifelong longing for affection and or validation from others.

Courtney: 46:04

Absolutely, I 100 agree with and what I enjoyed was the way that the author broke it down, is he lined up all of the profile with kind of his own like thoughts on everything. So let me, kenzie, I see that you really want to be included here hannah's is all about hannah's adorable little dog wants to be directly she likes to think she's part of the episode.

Courtney: 46:29

She likes to think she's part of the episode. He, he kind of lays it all out and he says each one where he's like the killer was intelligent but with no formal education. Green.

Hannah: 46:38

The killer was not of a moneyed background or esteemed social standing gregory green so that's why I was confused, because I thought, okay, so is it kind of like green was the brains behind it and bush just had the money for it and the prestige.

Courtney: 46:53

So the author drew the connection to Gregory Green at each of the points and highlighted that the reason Green may not have ever been charged was due to the fact that Bush was involved in it and his money and power was what was keeping them from being charged. Because if you think about it, if they had ever tried to formally charge Gregory Green, he would have rolled on Bush in an instant. And I'm wondering. My theory with no evidence Wanderers, this is just me speculating after what I read. My theory is that Chris Bush was in on it because of his father. It was a bigger situation and Chris was being set up by his father to take the fall if he needed to.

Courtney: 47:28

I think Chris was no longer wanting to be a part of it. His father took him out. His father had the money to be able to take out all the other people too, without actually getting his hands dirty. And I'm wondering if gregory green didn't just find himself in a place where he was seeking that validation. He was seeking that prestige and he had that. He was so opposite of chris, but they had the same love of young children all right.

Hannah: 47:51

So the first two we say are green. Can we go through them again? What's?

Courtney: 47:55

the third one, again, the killer was not in a position of authority in the workplace. Okay, so I didn't even know if I didn't even know if he had a job. The last the only thing I knew about his employment status was that he had been in undercover narcotics so could we also say that for bush?

Hannah: 48:07

because if the dad is the one that owned the company, maybe he's like oh, you're just a child.

Courtney: 48:12

You have, yeah, one of those like parents that are just like you're not ready to hold yes, and I think the reason why he was leaning towards green is because chris did go to like a very fancy, like overseas boarding school, like he got a really high end, um, really high end education. Next one the killer had a previous record of criminal activity for violence just beneath the degree of violence now being perpetrated by him. So I think that's where we were kind of branching off into Green, because even though Chris had that, I mean and violence is sexual assault I'm not saying it isn't but Green had that strangled a person right up to the point where they were almost dead. So I see where the connection connection was clearer for green there um, and then he called ems but then he escalated just slightly to the point where he didn't call ems, yeah, yeah.

Courtney: 48:56

So the next one is the sex of the child was less relevant to the killer than the age of the child, which could have been for any of them, because obviously so, thinking about green, he had that like hundreds of children could have been boys and could have been girls.

Hannah: 49:08

I think there's something to be said for those that age of like puberty and not puberty and depending on development. Yeah, because if we think about Dr Bill Bass, which we talked about in the forensic book about the death's acre in the body farms, you know something I didn't know. Is that, like when you look at a child, a male and female skeleton are the same? Right, it's not until puberty where women actually develop hips and everything else.

Courtney: 49:33

Yeah, so that could have come into play as well so a certain degree it almost depending on what kind of sexual assault the person was going after. Right, the physical body probably didn't make that much difference like, also like hair.

Hannah: 49:47

You know, like girls, little girls, don't have hair yet, right like we don't develop that till puberty too. So there's a lot of things that look similar. There's a lot.

Courtney: 49:55

Not not to get gross, I just you know it's science and I think a lot of the way that we discuss it and I think a lot of the way that people who listen to us know that we discuss it is based on science. It's not it's not based on being creepy right um, though sometimes that line feels pretty blurred.

Hannah: 50:08

We all be respectful because like yeah of course these kids like we. Just, they went through something awful and so did their families.

Courtney: 50:14

I mean, I can't imagine what kind of like ownership, especially barry king, who was just, he's easy to talk about because he was so involved in it. Clearly this is a person who, I mean he was an attorney, he was you know what. I mean he was prominent too and he was connected to the law. And obviously it makes me wonder was his child picked, even though he was an outlier, because he was connected to the law? And obviously it makes me wonder was his child picked, even though he was an outlier, because he was connected to the law?

Hannah: 50:34

I can't imagine like going to bed and waking up every day, where you're just thinking about your child. Are they gonna find them today? Are they gonna find them today? And?

Courtney: 50:40

I know that we certainly were not just extending that, I guess, heartfelt concern to these families, but a lot of the families we've talked about, yeah, the same could be same about maura murray. The same thing could be said about lynn burdick. Lynn burdick, it always comes back to lynn burdick for me.

Hannah: 50:57

Our roman empires, our roman empires so six was the cleansing of the bodies was in service to purification which I agree, then like childlike exactly, and like porcelain doll is what I keep going back to yeah and then seven is 100% green in my head.

Courtney: 51:13

When Mark had been struck on the head, no violence other than sexual was inflicted on his body, suggesting that it was a reaction and not intended, exactly like the boy who got him caught in California.

Hannah: 51:22

Yeah.

Courtney: 51:23

The positioning of Mark and Christine was ritualistic was number eight. I feel like somebody who's molested that many people probably has a ritual.

Hannah: 51:33

So I'm sorry. Was that the kids that were found at the police station?

Courtney: 51:36

No, that was the ditch in the Mark was the state police area and Christine was the side of a railroad.

Hannah: 51:45

That was the postal service person.

Courtney: 51:48

Okay, Correct, and Christine was gone the longest. So that was the first and the longest. If you want to look at it, that person? Okay, correct, and Christine was gone the longest. So that was the first and the longest. If you want to look at it that way, okay. And then nine the killer's fair treatment of the children. Suggested a lifelong affection and or validation seeking oh, 100%, absolutely.

Courtney: 52:02

And I could see how that could also be Bush or Green, because I'm sure that growing up in a house the way like Bush's family sent him away to boarding school and then he had these issues and they kept leaving to Europe, I can see where that abandonment. Even though I can understand why a parent might want to be like stay over there, stay in your lane, I can see where that could impact them too. So I'm definitely really leaning towards there's a bigger scheme here, the fact that it relates all back into this child sex trafficking ring.

Hannah: 52:28

It's not just one person. It's not just one person.

Courtney: 52:29

And I think it's super hard to look at. A final thing that I kind of want to link to Chris Bush, just because I know I'm kind of on that line where I'm like Bush green, bush green. In Mark's case, specifically, there is a link to Christopher Bush. So when Bush's body was found, there was a pencil drawing over his bed. So he was found in his bed, wrapped in his bedding, shot to the forehead. There was a drawing over his bed in pencil that resembled Mark wearing a hoodie. Eyes closed, screaming out in pain was how the boy was depicted in the picture. And this was also kept out of all the press and from the victim's families. So it was a piece of art, yeah, drawn onto the wall. Only law enforcement officers involved knew that detail. Nobody else was ever clued in on it and and a lot of people speculated, was the sketch artwork completed by chris as a memento or was it planted at the scene after his suicide as a way to to like?

Hannah: 53:25

I'm sorry, could you use last name? So it was. It was bush that was found. Yeah, christy, and they're wondering if green is the one that drew it they didn't say.

Courtney: 53:34

They're just wondering if somebody else, whoever, if christopher bush was not a suicide, which I don't think, I don't think he was either whoever the killer was, whether it was someone hired to kill or someone killing for their own agenda. There was question about whether it was like did christopher bush draw that because he wanted to remember mark? Did christopher bush draw it because he was planning to kill mark? Or was it like I'm killing you and I'm putting that there so they really link you to it and they stop looking for me?

Hannah: 54:01

I'm guessing there's not a picture of?

Courtney: 54:05

the artwork. The only person who knew about it was police officers. So when you, when you summarize it, christopher bush had connections from him to frank sheldon's island sex ring associates linking him to lawson and lamborghese, and he was directly associated with gregory green and archibald sloan, whose mitochondrial dna was found on the two victims bodies, it's reasonable he was the common denominator in all these killings, parrot with his powerful and rich family. And my conclusion says that if I had to put one person in my mind who I think was the mastermind or the the common denominator, it's chris bush. I because green, wouldn't have had the access to the other things without bush, I think.

Courtney: 54:47

I think that's the first spot and unfortunately, I think whoever else was in on it and I do think there was a lot of people in on it they knew taking him out was going to be. Maybe they thought he would roll. Yeah, because he's out of the suspects. He's the only one who was killed off. The other ones died in prison. Damn, maybe the other ones banded together and were like we got to make this guy go.

Hannah: 55:08

I do agree, though, we gotta make this guy go.

Courtney: 55:12

I I do agree, though it wasn't one person. It wasn't, it couldn't have been. Maybe all of the acts were one person, but they served the purpose of stealing those children and it's disgusting to think about served multiple people sick yep fantasies, multiple yep, and so that is, at this current state in time, on march 9th 2025 at 1.15 pm, the Oakland County child killer case. According to Courtney, that was amazing.

Hannah: 55:39

It was Thank you, for that was a lot Of course.

Courtney: 55:42

And I feel like I thought I was going to feel better after, like, oh, it's all out, and I'm just like, nope, I still it's going to be one of those cases that lingers in my mind and when it comes up I'm just like, nope, I still it's gonna be one of those cases that lingers in my mind and when it comes up I'm gonna be like I have to, I have to look at this, but if anybody else has other research or theories, write in, tell us all about it. We would love to hear what other people think about it too, and I have one other tbr book to do for the podcast, so if people have suggestions of things they want, my individual uh list is open, so I mean, I have plenty. I could fill it in with text us, please, you too, cousin mark I picked my old card.

Hannah: 56:21

Is that okay?

Courtney: 56:22

yeah, no, that's fine all right, here's gonna be a card for us pick a god any god.

Hannah: 56:33

Four of clubs, are you sure? Yes, are you sure? I have to think of the spade shape.

Courtney: 56:40

And then I know this could you dig a hole with it. Yes or no? No, so it's four clubs, so four clubs.

Hannah: 56:44

Herbert r dixon on september 19th 1994, herber R Dixon. On September 1994 at 7.32 am, barnstable Police responded to 250 Vineyard Road in Cotuit I don't think I've ever heard of that, cotuit, c-o-t-u-i-t. Cotuit and located the victim with a single shotgun wound to the back of the head. Oh wow, not a shotgun again, that's uh execution style yeah. The victim was the sole caretaker of the 60 acre estate and would allow individuals from the area to hunt and fish on the property when the owners were away. Hmm, interesting.

Courtney: 57:20

If you have any info about this case, please call 1-855-MA-SOLVE I feel like ending on a card kind of sucks, because it's like we read this thing and we don't know anything about it, because we go in blind.

Courtney: 57:32

We just pick it and then I just feel like, damn, I guess we could start, once we finish these cards, going through and researching the cases. Yeah, absolutely, I've been kind of teasing. The idea of this was my first. I don't. Was this wicked wanderings? No, it wasn't the first unsolved. No, we've had disappearances. But have we ever had unsolved murders? I know someone's gonna have to fact check us on this. It was my first unsolved one that I've done, aside from lynn, which I have to just call it a different category, but I really kind of enjoy it. I have like a love hate relationship with unsolved cases because, unsolved is like there's ample stuff on it.

Courtney: 58:10

It kind of lives through the ability to like, work your brain into it. But I feel like it's such a sad thing that then I want to go down the rabbit hole and solve it, even though I know many people before me have tried to do it.

Hannah: 58:21

Obviously I feel like I need to go through my books and like think if there's any unsolved murders, because of course we have disappearances, right? We? Have marmory first right.

Courtney: 58:33

I don't know we're gonna have to come back to that well we do have on our list that we want to come up with. We want to create our spreadsheet. Yes, I feel like the wanders might want to listen to us too. I don't know why they would want to do that, but I don't know wonders if you love us, if you love us, let us know. Not us, let us know. Not just Cousin Mark, we love him, but we want more people to love us.

Hannah: 58:53

We want more Cousin Marks. Just don't talk about cannibalism.

Courtney: 58:57

I do have to say this is terrible, but I will say I was out, and yesterday I was out at a convention kind of thing. And so this man walks up to me and he's he's a vendor, I should say, not just a random man and he walks with me and he has a pair of like cooking scissors and he cuts a piece of beef jerky off and hands it to me. And I had this moment where I couldn't get cannibalism out of my head and I'm like watching my dad eat this piece of jerky and I just want to like reach into his mouth like a dog and pull it back out, because all I can think about is I love that song yeah.

Hannah: 59:34

It's because of Mark's fault, we'll blame him. Yeah, so now I think about that constantly.

Courtney: 59:39

So on that note, wanderers, don't think about cannibalism, don't eat beef jerky from random people and always keep on wandering.

Hannah: 59:47

Bye guys, bye. Thanks for listening today. Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me Hannah and co-hosted by me Courtney.

Courtney: 59:54

And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Hannah: 59:56

Music by Sasha M. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you.