Wicked Wanderings
Delve into the enigmatic realms of the mysterious, unearth tales of haunting encounters, explore the chilling depths of true crime, and unravel the threads of the unexplained. Join us on the Wicked Wanderings Podcast for a riveting journey through the realms of the unknown and the haunting mysteries that linger in the shadows.
Wicked Wanderings
Ep. 93: Credonia Mwerinde
Hannah explores the shocking story of Credonia Mwerinde, a female cult leader from Uganda who orchestrated the deaths of over 1,000 people in one of history's deadliest cult massacres.
• Born in 1952 to a wealthy Ugandan family with strong Catholic influence
• Early signs of sociopathic behavior included setting fire to a former lover's house
• Created "The Movement of the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God" based on alleged visions from the Virgin Mary
• Enforced strict rules including no speaking, surrendering all possessions, and rigid prayer schedules
• After failed apocalypse predictions in 1992, 1995, and 1999, followers began leaving
• In March 2000, she gathered remaining followers in "arks," then set them on fire
• Was last seen escaping into the jungle and never caught for her crimes
• Demonstrates how violent environments can normalize extreme behaviors
• Raises questions about why female cult leaders receive less attention than male counterparts
• Shows how apocalyptic beliefs can be weaponized to control vulnerable people
Please tell us which cults you'd like us to cover in future episodes by messaging us on social media!
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
Wicked Wanderings is a Production of Studio 113
So I was doing this thing the other day where I tell myself all the time you're on a book buying ban, you can't buy any more books. And then I look at the shelf and I look at what's on Kindle Unlimited and I'm like I want to read something, but it's like when you have a menu of food in front of you for takeout options and you're like I want something but it's not here. And that's how my TBR shelf will never be empty. Mood reader. I am a mood reader.
Hannah:Okay, Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky.
Courtney:Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us.
Hannah:This is Wicked Wanderings. All right, let's go. Hi Courtney, hi Anna, how are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm good, I'm swell. So, talking about book buying, have you ever read the music?
Courtney:I think I told you about it. If I saw the cover, I would probably be able to tell you. I'm now looking. Here's the problem. Oh God, it has a you about it. If I saw the cover, I would probably be able to tell you. I'm now looking. Here's the problem. Oh God, it has a sticker on it. Hannah, you asshole. I went through your whole bookshelf and deed did that to them all. I don't know how that got there, dick. Okay, anyways, I either have read that or it's on my TBR shelf, because the cover looks very familiar. Okay, well. Well, it's by t marie vandelli. She, finally, is coming out with another book I pre-ordered it.
Courtney:My hd carlton book box is supposed to be coming in sometime this month. Wow, I almost forgot all about it, me too.
Hannah:She had a baby, though I saw that that's why we thought the other book she wrote that's why phantom sucked. Yeah, don't read phantom guys hd carlton and the adventure.
Courtney:listening to this, I'm sorry. I'm a huge hype girl. I recommend your other books all the time If hairy fingers don't do anything for you, yeah. Hairy fingers, trench coat, pinky ring. That's all I got to say. None of those are your vibe and you don't want to picture Gam Gam getting it on. But if you like, grandpa vibes more to you.
Courtney:Some people are grandpa aged Exactly, and I think the idea of like a tattooed man with a Prince Albert piercing probably would freak them out. Just the same, leave those for the rest of us.
Courtney:You know, maybe we should save that for our other podcast to talk about different piercings. We always talk about Wicked Wanderings After Dark, but I feel like we should produce like bonus episodes that are video episodes of Wicked Wanderings After Dark. Oh, I'm down. I think we should Different content. You never know what you're going to get, though. Different strokes for different folks. I didn't know where you were going with that. I didn't really know either. Sometimes I start talking and then out comes randomness and we just hit 100 episodes, which is really exciting.
Courtney:We did Woohoo In real time. We're recording this the day that we made the social media post, so you know, like and subscribe everybody. Please. Shameless plug and if you're listening and you're like, but there's only 92 episodes 91 that was 91 well, after they hear this one, it'll be 92.
Courtney:You gotta think about that. See, courtney's better with math than I am. After you hear it, you're like, yeah, but there should be 101 episodes. The other nine episodes are for subscribers only. So if you want to check that out, subscribe, or you can just continue to be missing out. It's up to you.
Hannah:That one's on you if you don't have fomo, then oh well I subscribed and then my debit card failed. But you know what? I have a new friend, jake actually jake that subscribed and then shout out jake, shout out to jake for resubscribing. I finally met him this weekend at a family party. Great guy, thank you, jake, because you know you get your card stolen sometimes, and that happens, or it gets hacked. So, courtney, you have no excuse.
Courtney:I wish everybody could. Sometimes I forget that on podcasts you can't see the look on my face. I have a very vocal face. Yeah, I think people would agree about that. So sometimes Hannah says something and I'm silent because I'm just shooting a look in her direction. I feel like it's like Pictionary. In that moment this feels good. I feel like sometimes we sit down to podcast and we're like way too serious. Today feels very relaxed. It's obviously it's fall y'all for us. Oh, it's fall y'all. We got the fall vibes going. I'm in a hoodie and in leggings because hannah keeps her house like the arctic, which I love.
Hannah:Um, you know, I've got my, my fall cider, cider, donut as my drink of choice today, and we are ready for fall. We're still ready. I'm still ready.
Courtney:It's hard, I've been ready I feel like we say that, but when I'm sitting in your house, every day feels like we got the fall-scented candles going. Everything is spooky decor. Psa to anybody who's also a spooky lover. Tj Maxx and Marshalls has their fall and Halloween candles out now.
Hannah:Code orange, everyone Code orange this is not a drill.
Courtney:I already bought five.
Hannah:I mean, I got my Headless Horseman lit up right now.
Courtney:He's there all year.
Hannah:I got Apple Pumpkin going.
Courtney:I got Macintosh going. Hannah's a candle blender. I feel like I want people to write in and tell us like in my house I can light one candle at a time unless it's like one in the kitchen and one in the living room by a very high ceiling, so I feel like it doesn't smell bad, right?
Hannah:no, you would tell me if it smelled bad, of course I would. I would blow out your candles. Well, she has done that folks, actually one time because like we were don't know walking down the hallway to go somewhere in the building and she went.
Courtney:she's like I'm sorry, that wasn't my candle to blow out Autism, I don't know. I feel like I'm one of those people where I don't like to light a candle in the beginning of the day, because if I'm going to leave, I would not have lit them until I got home. Yeah, you wait until you're done for the day and then, in the event that, you have to go back out.
Hannah:it's like an inconvenience to blow out the candle. Very inconvenient, I agree. Why is that? That's like an unspoken rule. How does that even happen?
Courtney:I don't know. Some people are blowing them out a million times. Because doesn't that ruin the candle too? Depending on the type of candle, it is because you want it to get so far out that the wax is like going down evenly.
Hannah:Oh, I hate that one. I always want to scrape that. I'm afraid to scrape because I think they say don't scrape yeah, I don't think you're supposed to.
Courtney:I do whack, I do the wick trimming. Now, I never used to do that, but I had. This is tmi, I guess, but not really TMI well, what are we trimming? Here. A lot of appliances in my apartment, because it's older, are the white appliances, and so I started noticing on the white appliances there was like this, like soot, and so I was like oh man, is there mold?
Courtney:or something in here and then as I'm cleaning, and so I asked my dad I was like dad, why? And he's like well, you like candles and if the wick is like burning hot at the top where it's like black and charred. You'll get that off onto white substances. So now I've been clipping them and it hasn't been happening anymore.
Hannah:Small spaces and hey, we almost had a fire here, so mark was part of that.
Courtney:I think that's the best part of the whole story is that I can't tell the story without laughing so hard I almost pee my pants and then I'm like oh my god, but Mark was there, like I distinctly remember sitting here and I was on FaceTime talking with Mark and you were in there. Then you were like oh my god, and all of a sudden there was like this flash of light and off I had to go and Mark's like what's happening he was just trying to make sure that we were like safe.
Hannah:So that story actually came up this weekend at the july 4th party so wanders we all love. Cousin mark and his family lives on the eastern side of massachusetts. So we went there and uh well, obviously if you know his accent you know he's an eastern mess, but I digress anyways. So that conversation, that story actually came up at july 4th and it was great to hear it all over again, because mark just makes it sound like terrible. I mean, it was terrible, it felt pretty terrible.
Courtney:It felt pretty terrible. I kind of want to listen to that episode again, just to hear it. Sometimes I do Whenever I'm like. I felt particularly chaotic today, I'll go back and listen and I'm like but I wasn't light the house on fire while Rob's not home chaotic and remember how upset I was I was. I was like rob's not gonna let me come over and play anymore, he's gonna be so mad.
Hannah:It smells like someone left the iron on and I'm like no it's fine and I'm like, oh my god.
Courtney:It's funny too, because it reminds me so much of, like my mom, who just thought her response to everything was like it's fine, it's gonna be fine. I like broke my toe at one point and it was completely like if your toes are going straight, my toe was pointing to the right, it was off the side of my body and she was like no, it's fine, it's fine. So it was just.
Hannah:It was one of those responses yeah, come on, he's courtney's aid in my life. Honestly, I saved the building. Basically I'm gonna throw water on it. Okay, I was like sure, kind of made it worse a little bit, but then it was fine yeah, well, we couldn't have touched the lid, though.
Courtney:That was the problem. Yes, that was. It was not an ideal situation, and I know what I. It's one of those situations, like when you work with kids on the spectrum, where you know what the appropriate social thing is, but something in the environment isn't going to allow it to happen so you're like ah shit, don't take what I told you too literally.
Hannah:Oh my God, are we ready to like do an episode? I'm excited to hear what we're going to talk about. Today's like this can never get better, because you know you have your best friend. You read a little bit, have some drinks, do a little podcasting.
Courtney:We just need fall we just need fall. We just need fall.
Hannah:All right, it's okay, i'll'll be here soon. I guess we wouldn't appreciate as much if it was all year round, right?
Courtney:I don't know, I think I would let's talk about cults.
Hannah:Okay, it's different, I like it right so when you think of cults, who or what do you think of? Charles manson, that's a good one, anybody else or anything else? I mean, I think of the. Charles Manson, that's a good one, anybody else or anything else?
Courtney:I mean I think of the KKK as a cult. Yeah, I would say that that's a pretty nice one, and then I think of organized religion, Mmm deep, and then I go down the rabbit hole of like everything is kind of a cult when you think about it, oh God, of course. Disney. Disney is a cult. Oh, I'm sorry if anyone's a Disney fan, but I think Disney is a hardcore cult.
Hannah:I actually met someone this weekend, lovely person. I met her at a Fourth of July party and she was covered in tats, beautifully done, but all of them were of a Disney character hey, or something you find at Disney Like. One of the ones I liked that she had was this woman with an umbrella. She's like oh, that's the one from the Haunted Mansion, of course, that's what my eye drew too.
Courtney:I love the Haunted Mansion. It's my favorite movie so and it's not on Disney, of course not, because it's one of the best ones, it's so good, oh, my God, all right, if you know, you know. Side note Starbucks is releasing Haunted Mansion cups. How did you find that out? Britton told me that's amazing, Would you say? Think most of the obvious cults are run?
Hannah:by men.
Courtney:I think it's kind of like serial killers, right. When you think about a serial killer, you think about men, you think about the 70s or the 60s. You don't think, oh my God. But I feel like with women there's still some kind of expectation of like they're not manipulative, even though they can be very manipulative oh God, we can or they're not killers, even though they should definitely be worried about. So I think most of the popular ones are men. I think that would be safe to say.
Hannah:What if I told you a woman holds one of the highest body counts of all infamous cult leaders?
Courtney:Body count as in. Ah, okay, I would want to know who this lady was 1. Ah. Okay, I would want to know who this lady was. 1075 lives is what they do now.
Hannah:So you know, it's probably closer to double, probably. Wow, okay, I'm listening her name and I'm sorry if I butcher names in this episode, please forgive me credonia merwenda, marian merinda merinda, m-w-e-r-i-n-d-a and she is from Uganda, okay, born in 1952. She was born into, I would say, a pretty wealthy family because they owned a lot of land, okay, so they had pineapple groves, they had sugar cane fields.
Courtney:Business owners as well, I would imagine.
Hannah:So she's not a woman without resources growing up, and speculation seems to be that she grew up very religious, and I will probably say this a bunch of times in this episode, that there was a lot of war civil war in uganda and those parts of africa, and when religion was coming in, it was a lot, lot of Catholicism. Okay, so apparently she must have gone to Catholic school, is what we're speculating. Oh, boy, and I love this.
Courtney:When she was old enough, she strayed quote so she chose something different than what they agreed with.
Hannah:Yeah, pretty much. And or something bad happened to her and she couldn't return. I guess, according to them, that she may have become a slut, which I think is totally awful.
Courtney:She got seen sitting at a cafe with a boy. Yeah, probably.
Hannah:She fell for a local health officer, but according to Credonia which that's what I'm going to call her now, because that's her first name is what I can pronounce he did her dirty, according to her. Okay, so you know what she did.
Courtney:Oh boy, she killed him. She broke into his house and set his shit on fire. I mean, people write songs about that. Exactly Throw the crap on the lawn light, this whole bitch up.
Hannah:Yeah, I think of Carrie Underwood, Like she keyed his car.
Courtney:I love that. We just talked about how we almost set your house on fire and then that's the first thing into the episode. But you know, we'll just call that a coinkydink.
Hannah:So the author of the book I read was by Max Cutler, who also has his own podcast, and the book is called Cults, if you're looking into it Said this is the first instance of her obsession with fire. Oh, so she's a pyro, a little bit of a pyro. He also mentioned that this is one of the three elements of the McDonald triad, which I didn't know. There was a name to this, but you probably know it once.
Courtney:I tell you it's one of those things where we didn't know there was a name for it, yes, okay, so it's supposed to be one of the precursors to sociopathy Sociopathy. Oh, I've been really into sociopathy lately.
Hannah:So the fire, cruelty to animals. And do you know? The third.
Courtney:Lack of empathy. Bedwetting, ah, okay.
Hannah:Sym wedding. Ah, okay, symptom. Yeah, that makes more sense. So the family sent her to the mental ward, as all families do, which basically labeled her mentally disturbed, which doesn't help her at all, sent her on her way, didn't do much for her timeline wise, that also makes sense if you're talking she was born and you said 52 yes.
Hannah:So yeah, the asylum and institution was very popular and something that the author said too that was interesting was like even if she was in the united states of america at that time, the same thing would happen.
Courtney:Yeah, it wouldn't have helped her probably sooner actually.
Hannah:Yeah all right, everyone, I'm gonna be quoting and here I am quoting one can't really confirm what the early life of credonia was like, but many of the traits that she displayed, especially violence, cloaking itself in the guise of holiness, as well as her lust for wealth achieved by exploitation, were features of normalcy in Uganda when she came of age. Viewed on its own, her behavior stands out for its exceptional ruthlessness. But a country whose history has been soaked in bloodshed, her cruelty had plenty of precedents. So the reason I wanted to read that was because I obviously thought it was well said that. I didn't want to try to reword it, but looking at the whole picture and what Uganda was going on as a whole, and even Africa as a whole, she grew up with a lot of violence in her life. It obviously was a part of society. It was a part of the government. She kind of didn't have a chance.
Courtney:It's a nature versus nurture, exactly. I feel like we have that conversation about so many of the monsters we talk about on the podcast. Is it nature, is it nurture? Is it both, exactly.
Hannah:So, like I said, she was ambitious and she learned to brew banana beer, which apparently was like a staple.
Hannah:People loved it and she inserted herself into a local bar and began to run it herself and took advantage of the owner. Now, this is also going to be a thing that she does, where she just kind of like she has this what I like to call Delilah effect on men, and if you don't know a lot about just Bible stories, like Delilah was the one that basically seduced Samson, and Samson was supposed to be this man of God and everything. So that's why I don't know if I came up with that or if it's actually a thing.
Courtney:So sorry if I'm stealing someone else's, but that's what it reminded me of, like just this woman coming in kind of trying to seduce this man to get what she wants, she creeps in manipulates him and gets what she wants out of him.
Hannah:Exactly so she wanted to use the resources for her own gain and then leave, and that's just kind of like what she does. So 1989 rolls around and she decides to go to the countryside, where a religious movement of Catholicism starts taking place. And what is one thing a church cannot get enough of Money. Money's one, followers, followers, another. That's good Visions. Okay, yeah, right, every good cult has someone that has, quote unquote visions, visions, right, all these ideas, all these ideas. She had what is called a marion apparition, which I didn't know. This was a thing either and it's basically that the virgin mary appears to her and talks to her and courtney's like the eye roll I just did.
Courtney:If we could play it back and let you guys hear, it would have sounded like as we know from past dealings, credonia has a way with men.
Hannah:She meets the man who runs a catholic school and she becomes the person behind the scenes nicknamed the programmer. And, as we know, in a lot of societies usually people will not listen to a woman in power. They listen to the man, so it sounds like he was more like her puppet. Over exactly over 10 years, she used her visions to build what is called the movement of the restoration of the 10 commandments of god, and that was the name of the cult never heard of it. The followers worked for almost nothing typical in the cult right and they gave up all their worldly possessions and all their money goes to the cult Exactly.
Hannah:They gathered new members and sometimes committed murder to those who were against their leader and movement and and obviously it wasn't like great, you're joining, by the way, we do murder people. Like obviously it doesn't happen. There's a way of talking to people and telling them it's okay. She told them that the Virgin Mary told them it was okay once in a while to commit murder. It's like organized crime where, by the time, you realize, what you're doing.
Courtney:you're so far into it that you're already incriminated Right.
Hannah:And what does every good religion need to follow A book? And what does every good religion need to follow A book? A text right, and while the Bible was useful, they needed more. So, if you think of the Bible as one text, their text was basically the sequel, so it was what came after Correct, and they called it a timely message from heaven.
Hannah:Oh boy, and here I am quoting again and here she is quoting, and this is a sample quote from the text there will be great tribulation upon all the people such that has never been experienced by any person since the creation of the world. People will be absent-minded and will develop a spirit of independence from God in their deeds, and this spirit will displease the creator. He will, in reaction, release to the world chastisements that will include the shedding of blood in many countries. So fire and brimstone is the basis of it. So, according to this cult, the Virgin and Christ came down to warn again that the end times were coming, and it is up to Credonia and her followers to heed the warning and act. That's a lot of pressure, it is, and such things as the cult spread the using of fear, which a lot of cults did right Of the fear of the millennia, right, that was a huge thing even if you weren't in a cult Like oh my God, the world's coming to an end which probably came from some kind of cult-like Mm-hmm.
Hannah:And the AIDS epidemic. Hmm, that's true. They used the AIDS epidemic as something that, oh that, was a punishment of God. If you want to save your family, come follow us. So sad, so sad. Their teachings were of the end times, like Revelation, which is the last book in the Bible, and before the year 2000,. Chastisements would rain on Earth, and then three days of darkness. Don't worry, though, the compounds have that covered. And how do you know? Well, because it says, they built arcs with food and supplies to keep the believers safe. So, basically, they had these bunkers made.
Courtney:And they filled them with food and Compound, meaning like did the people have to live in one set space, so it was like a separate community Right and there were several around the area.
Hannah:They weren't all together, but there were several.
Courtney:Okay, makes sense if you're looking at the sprawled I mean. Obviously I'm not familiar with geographically Uganda, but I'm assuming that it's easier to spread your message when you have a small community or medium community in many places a small community, or medium community in many places.
Hannah:Three, uh, so their days were broken up into sevenths, dear god. Four sevenths was spent in prayer, two sevenths was spent in work and only one seventh was rest. Did they eat? I think there was some eating in there, but depending on how strong you were, usually your work time was a lot longer than anybody else's.
Courtney:So if you were able-bodied, Able-bodied, you worked longer oh gosh, yeah.
Hannah:Individuality was stripped. No more birth names were recognized. Unmarried children were just brothers and sisters, so it didn't matter who you came from. Married men and women were aunts and uncles, and no speech was allowed unless special occasions where it was permitted, so only sign language and writing were used to communicate.
Courtney:I just can't understand how, like sometimes with cults, you can see like, okay, I understand why, for what they were trying to push, this makes sense, but I guess for what they're trying. Like, if you're, I'm just trying to think, if you're trying to disseminate anything, part of that is word of mouth, right? We talk about in ABA disseminating your field through speech, through the way that you make social media posts how does your cult gain more following and more community? If only the ways that you guys communicate are allowed, although I'm sure there's a separate. If you're trying to get a new believer, you're allowed to speak, right Clause.
Hannah:Now that I'm thinking, about it, or like there was only because they did say there's only specific people that were allowed to talk.
Courtney:Ah, the people who were good at manipulation.
Hannah:So 1993 comes around and the current Pope at the time allegedly gave his blessing. So he comes to Uganda and apparently there was either credonia and one of her bishops or the both of them, but apparently the pope gave his blessing. There's we're not sure if that actually happened allegedly, I would hope the pope wouldn't, but this made the people so excited it's like oh my god, maybe we are doing god's work right. Trouble started, though, when the predicted apocalypse didn't arrive, so they predicted that it would come in 1992. Obviously didn't happen. 1995 guess what? Didn't happen. And then december 31st 1999 and 2000 rolls in and people start to leave. They're like well, I think this is a load of bullshit they're like you guys are full of shit, I'm out.
Hannah:And the movement got desperate and some people were either told that the people they loved that were still in the compounds were dying with illness, so people would come back, or they kidnapped people to come back. That's so sad, yeah. So March came in the year 2000. And they said, oh, the apocalypse has arrived. And they got all the followers to go into these arcs and she had them set on fire. Later, hundreds, hundreds of bodies were found throughout the camps, whether they were buried in places, whether they were in the burned arcs, just random bodies everywhere. And Credonia escaped and was never seen again.
Courtney:So let me just play this back, because maybe there's some listeners who also feel like I do that. Just it hits such a ugly head so fast so she started to lose followers when they didn't believe her word. They were leaving. She was down to few numbers. She kidnapped them, went as far as not all of them, but kidnapping them or manipulating them to come back right, right, just to turn around and light them all on fire.
Hannah:Yes, wow, and it's a scary lady. I will be honest. There was a lot of political talk in the book that I didn't fully understand, a lot of names and government, and this guy Cutler did a really great job of bringing in the politics of what was happening in Uganda and the Congos. So I think there were some things that I couldn't disseminate really well Culturally understand. Yeah, makes sense, but I love that he well-rounded it because obviously this didn't just come out of nowhere. Like you said.
Hannah:Nature and nature, apparently and this was an eyewitness that after she lit those arcs on fire, that she was seen in the back of a pickup going straight into the jungle, and so we're not sure if she just like basically took all the assets she had and boiled them down to money and then headed into the jungle and was never seen again, or if she was all right. I'm gonna live out my days by myself and maybe a few followers. Or maybe the jungle was her end and she was eaten by a. I'm going to live out my days by myself and maybe a few followers.
Courtney:Or maybe the jungle was her end and she was eaten by a tiger, I mean we don't know, but for all we know, I mean, there's no proof that she didn't light herself murder-suicide style.
Hannah:So she was just never seen again.
Courtney:She never answered for her crimes which is kind of, because this was not that long ago. Yeah, I feel like possibly still be alive.
Hannah:That's true. Yeah, because you said she was born in 52.
Hannah:I mean she'd be an old lady, but it's interesting I just never heard of her before, and to have a woman cult leader like this, like I I've heard of mother god, right, yeah, that was always an interesting one. And there's a couple other that are like they're off of, like the evangelical faith, but this one I flabbergasted but just sounded like she was the manipulator, right, but she had a lot of men with power and money and that's how she was able to take control.
Courtney:So do you think that most and this is definitely like a personal question do you feel like most people who end up in the position of cult leader have a power complex or they're after wealth? I would say?
Hannah:power, complex and control, because if you have control, that's true, you can probably get money.
Courtney:I feel like it's like the chicken or the egg. Yeah, because so in her position right if you think about what little we know about her background, which I'm sure and I feel like, unfortunately living in the united states, we only hear about things that are like close to home like there's a huge media presence, whether it's books, magazines, news media like movies and documentaries and things.
Courtney:We're just now starting to see an era where, if it happened outside of the us, it's still important and we still want to like learn about it. A lot of people have this idea that if it didn't happen here to our people, like we don't want to know about it, so I'm not bubble for sure right, I'm not shocked that we didn't know anything about it, but I'm just trying to figure out.
Courtney:They said that she had all these signs of sociopathy. She spent time in an asylum questioning sanity, right? Or somebody at some point was questioning sanity. What was her like? What was her why? Why did she do all of this?
Hannah:Yeah, and one of the things that Cutler brought up in the book, which I don't necessarily agree with, is he brought up the idea that when people are brought up in strict households like this, with strict religion and I thought about myself right. So he said, oh well, oh well, you know, once they have a little bit of freedom, they want to experience the world, they want to do everything.
Courtney:Some people some people, I wouldn't say everyone, because I I grew up in a very strict household.
Hannah:Did I do things like, yes, not illegal, but like? Did I want to experience, like how to swear, fuck. Yeah, I did like I never swore until college, like little things like that, like that. But like not everybody's going to go out and like I don't know.
Courtney:No, it's that adrenaline. I don't want to say a junkie, but like an adrenaline junkie.
Courtney:Yeah, Like somebody who gets high on adrenaline, and I think there's a lot of mental health diagnoses. I mean, especially working with children on the spectrum. Some people, some of those kids, really love that adrenaline kick. Adhd is a huge one for the adrenaline kick. Yeah, I think that plays more of a role into it than necessarily the way you were brought up. I mean my family wasn't strict religious, but they were strict growing up and did I, you know, occasionally blur those lines when I had a little bit of freedom? Yes, but I didn't go start a cult murder people.
Courtney:That feels like a pretty big jump especially, and like I keep hearing how you were saying you know, uganda at that time was a very violent place. It was, it was normalized by that point. So doing those things brutally, I'm sure, I'm sure she thought these things are wrong. But I think some people, especially when that religion piece comes into play, they start to really believe if, if a greater god or if a greater person or higher power is telling me I can do these things, they really believe that that's the truth right and seeing the power that people were getting out of violence against people.
Hannah:Yeah, like well, if they can do it, why can't I do it? And then why can't I turn it into using what I learned through growing up, through religion? Why couldn't I?
Courtney:use that as well. It makes me wonder if there were other crimes that she committed that just weren't traced to her, because typically what I've read I've read a few different books where, whether it was a memoir or just about sociopathy in general, when fire setting is present, it's usually like something that happens pretty regularly for them, because that high of oh, I set a fire and all this happened. They usually can't shut that that down, or shoplifting I've read a lot of a lot of times.
Courtney:Shoplifting is one of those things. They can't even tell you why they shoplifted the item, it's just they got the thrill out of it.
Hannah:So and there was a story that wasn't verified and that was talked about in the book, when she had owned the bar and I don't remember the specifics, but something some guy did to piss her off and apparently she killed him and the guys were her regular customers, walk in the next day and she's cleaning blood off the floor. But she was like, oh hey, you guys here for a drink, like very nonchalant, like very, like yeah, I might be cleaning blood off the floor, like blood off the floor, like who cares, right?
Courtney:So there's definitely violence of some sort that was happening prior hand, and it makes me wonder if there was always a tendency towards men I think she used her body to the advantage.
Hannah:I'm not I mean, if you got it working, girl, I mean that's interesting.
Courtney:I feel like you don't. You're right, you now that I'm thinking about it you don't normally hear about. But also we're kind of coming into an age now where being a woman and being in a position of power whether it's good power or bad power is now more like socially acceptable and appropriate. I think when you're thinking about she was a teenager in the 60s. So in the 70s, being a young adult that was still not a thing.
Hannah:Yeah, we were emerging into that, but that didn't just happen overnight and I think there's a lot of murders that probably happened way, way. I'm like I'm talking like before 1900s that oh, she couldn't have done that. Yeah, what do you mean?
Courtney:she wouldn't poison her husband. I'm pretty sure that was far more common, oh yeah, than anybody wants to talk about like I wonder if the life expectancy hasn't gotten better or if women have just been like you know what somebody threw us a bone for something, so now we don't have to do that yeah it's crazy when you think about that, maybe just being a woman, you think back like if I was born in a different time I'd have been hung like a witch.
Courtney:Oh yeah, 100. Absolutely I'm into weird stuff. Like there's just no way I'm outspoken. Somebody had told me to do something. I've been like nope. She's a witch Find her third teeth A hundred percent.
Hannah:But yeah, that's Credonia from Uganda.
Courtney:That was really exciting, Hannah.
Hannah:Thank you, I'm glad you liked it, it was different.
Courtney:Was there other cults in the book, or did he focus on just that?
Hannah:No in the book, or did he focus on just that? No, no, there's like six. So I tried to find one that I didn't know much about, like, obviously he has manson in there, obviously he has keith ranieri for nexium, okay, which I went down a rabbit hole with him already. Uh, jim jones, there was a couple other that I was I had never heard of, but then of course, credonia.
Courtney:So but she was the only woman in the book. Yes, I believe she was actually interesting woman in the book. Yes, I believe she was actually Interesting I would really be interested in knowing, like I mean, I'm sure there's no database for like who are the cult leaders of history, but I would be really interested to see, like what that ratio actually is percentage-wise of the cults that we're aware of, and how many of those leaders were female, I think the Davidians were in there for Waco Right, but yeah, I were female.
Hannah:I think the davidians were in there for, uh, waco right, but yeah, I wanted to do one that maybe people just haven't really heard much about it kind of reminds me of that episode that I think it was jess who did where.
Courtney:It was the nurse who was like putting the patients out of her misery. It's the one from northampton, yes, from the leads. The angel, the angel death. Yeah, the angel of death. Yeah, I don't know why it gives me those vibes like there's something spooky about a woman in that kind of killing.
Hannah:Yeah, stone cold have you seen the documentary of mother god? No, I don't think so I am telling you it changed my mind, like it just the synapses. It did something and I still think about it to this day.
Courtney:The images? Cults are kind of supposed to do that, aren't they? It's interesting how, even when you become fascinated with it, like after the fact, it still gets into your brain the way that they designed a cult to do yeah, yeah, to gain that following You're thinking about it. It's taking over your thoughts. It's taking over almost like who you are. It's kind of creepy.
Hannah:And I'm like, oh, I would never fall for that.
Courtney:Here I am falling for it.
Hannah:And here I am falling for it and I also think about my upbringing and some of the things that were just so ingrained in my mind since I was a little kid. Falling for it.
Courtney:And I had to rewire my brain for myself. I think a lot, of, a lot of things we don't consider as cults kind of are a lot of things, especially with, like social media being so big, I think about. I mean, obviously, religions are an easy one to throw a stone at but disney is a huge one.
Courtney:Disney always comes to mind when people are talking about cults, because I'm like there's like these rules, disney, cruise people. They've got like their own way of doing things, really and yeah, and now they've got I don't know if it's like multi-level marketing, of like people who sell cruise experiences, so you'll see the thing come up, that's like I'm, you'll see people post them. They say I'm now the person who can help you set up your experience at Disney World. Let me know if you want me to help you coordinate your event. All of a sudden, those are popping up everywhere, on social media, everywhere, people that I was like I didn't even know you like Disney and it looks so casual.
Courtney:That's what always strikes me about that one. It looks so casual, like, oh, I'm just offering, if you're going to be coming to disney, then I can help you plan. Almost like if we were at coffee and you said, oh, we're gonna go rob and I are gonna go to disney, and I'm telling you, oh, I've been there, you should try this ride, you should try this park or this restaurant. It feels like that. But then, before you realize, you're like, oh, it's multi-level marketing. Now you're gonna see it everywhere, because I said that you're gonna be on facebook and like six of them are gonna pop up. It's like I forget how they word it. Is it events? This is why I stay home or experiences.
Hannah:This is why I don't go out there. I mean, I guess I'm, I like, I'm part of, like, the scream cult. Like I just look over my mask, I love all the scream movies but is I guess this is a good question to ask and pose.
Hannah:Is there a difference with liking something or loving something and following something because you like it, and then following something because you believe it's a way of life oh well, no, okay, well, well, but like all fall, halloween, like it's, I don't know a big part, but it's not a way of life. Oh well, no, okay, well, well, but like all fall halloween, like it's, I don't know a big part but it's not a way of life.
Courtney:There's no rules to halloween. No, no, everyone experiences halloween I think for me, what distinguishes a cult is the way that, if it agrees with me, if it's for me, yeah, and I like it. I like decorating for halloween yeah, most months out of the year.
Hannah:Nobody's telling me in order to get x, you must y right for me that's where the culty because it brings you joy, just to do it for yourself jehovah's witnesses.
Courtney:I don't know why I'm not picking on them. No disrespect, they come to my mind. There are so many rules that I would. I would be out even if I believed in it, because I wouldn't be able to keep track of the rules. If you have to have a rule book to be in a club, then it's not a club, it's a cult. That's kind of how I think about it. Maybe the Wanderers can tell me if I'm right or wrong, but that's how I think about it.
Hannah:Yeah, guys, please. I mean, Courtney has been doing an amazing job with all of our social media stuff, so please interact, even if it has nothing to do with the post. And you see, like our hundredth episode post, and you're like, hey, can you do this episode or something? There's nothing to do with it. I like bigfoot too, something please. And also I do want to do a shout out to jake. I know we had talked about earlier, but he did respond when we were talking about wondering if mark was yelling at me for all the trivia questions.
Courtney:I was getting wrong.
Hannah:Jake did text and say that, yes, yes, he was so.
Courtney:So are they listening while they're at work? Is that what's happening? So, like Wednesday, we launch it. Yes.
Hannah:Actually, please keep going.
Courtney:Actually Wednesday we launch it and they listen together, or do you think they're listening separately? Someone let me know, because I have to. I'm a very visual person. I know that I've never met you, jake. I've definitely met mark in the virtual flesh, in the virtual. I like to picture how things look. So I need to know are you guys like twinning it, where, like, one of you is holding one earbud and the other one's holding the other, or is it? Are we playing through a boom box? I kind of like that idea. Are we playing through like a truck?
Courtney:stereo because I also don hate that idea. Are you guys listening sidebar and comparing notes? I really have to know.
Hannah:I'm really curious about all of this. I love that so much. And actually Mark said, well, what happened to the episode this week, this past week, and I was like, well, it did come out on Wednesday, but our producer, aka your cousin, he failed to put it up until that night. So sometimes it happens.
Courtney:We understand life, we still have jobs people.
Hannah:Rob is very busy, rob is very busy.
Courtney:I feel like I've been saying that since we started doing this together. It was the biggie, now it's work. Rob just likes to work.
Hannah:Guys, dude, which is funny because we don't really like to do that we both like to sit here.
Courtney:This feels like enjoyable work, but we don't like to work.
Hannah:Definitely not outside. Oh God, no, In this 100-degree heat.
Courtney:I also feel like I'm going to lose major points, because I was one of those people and I'm going to admit this on the air, so Rob can feel free to harass me with it forever I was one of those people who was like, oh my God, why is everybody obsessed with the Biggie? The Biggie isn't even that great. And I've been sitting here going, oh my gosh, when is the Biggie going to come? Oh, I love the Biggie.
Hannah:So wait. What changed your mind?
Courtney:I think I used to look at the Biggie as a nuisance because I worked in West Springfield oh yeah, yeah, for two different jobs at two different times and it was so inconvenient trying to drive in. It's like brimfield I love brimfield flea market. I love going when we went. When I go with pizza man, when I go with anybody, I love it. I can't stand it when I'm trying to get someplace. So now that I've been going, I'm actually considering getting a season's pass this year for the first time ever we already got ours like a month ago.
Hannah:It's just fun to go it's fun to go.
Courtney:It's fun when you have people to meet up with, but I also think that it gives me fall vibes.
Hannah:That's how I know fall is coming. Fall is here.
Courtney:It's like in Gilmore Girls when she's like I smell snow.
Hannah:That's how the Biggie feels about fall. For me, yes, like when we smell all the fried food and the popcorn and we're like fall's almost here, and even though it's hot during the day, it gets cool at night. So you want to bring a sweatshirt or a flannel.
Courtney:I just remember all of the pumpkin flavored ciders and beers with the rim, not the rim, and you get all sticky and oh, I'm gonna add a countdown to biggie. I mean I think we should.
Hannah:I think that's a good idea. I think we should also I I want to mention that that's really good point about like having to like drive through there, because I think about bright nights. If anyone in new england really knows, like bright Nights is the biggest light extravaganza that they do during Christmas time and I lived across the street from the entrance for a while. I hated Bright Nights. I hated it with a passion, but now I'm like, oh, I love it again because I don't have to live near it.
Courtney:Right, I think everything is good in small doses. That way too, and and once you understand but brimfield, when we went, yeah, I understood. This is the time we go in, this is where we're gonna park, this is when we're gonna leave. The biggie is very much like that too, once you understand the ins and outs, like you park here, you just run in, you do this and that and then you leave.
Hannah:By this time, I mean honestly like getting older. I say older, I'm 35 but like getting older right now I'd rather go to the biggie when it opens right, have my first beer at 10 30 and then be out by three and then all the other kiddos can come. Like, I like that idea I'm gonna agree to disagree.
Courtney:Sometimes I like that, but there's also something about at least being there a few times when it's like getting dark and you can see all the lights oh yes, there's something about that.
Hannah:The third or fourth?
Courtney:time. Yeah, the first time you have to go at night, have to. The first time you have to go at night, it's mandatory and you have to go with other people. Oh, absolutely not that I think anybody should go to the biggie by themselves like total solo, I would not recommend unless you really enjoy doing that. But send your location to one of us if you're gonna do that because it doesn't feel safe to go by yourself.
Courtney:I don't even go to the bathroom when I'm there by myself. Sorry, if you hear Kenzie in the background.
Hannah:She's protecting.
Courtney:She's been very upset. She normally sits right in my lap the whole time that we record.
Hannah:And I think Maybe the next episode we do. We need to give you like a blankie.
Courtney:I think if I don't have a blanket she doesn't get in my lap. Well, this has been a great episode, stuff we could talk about afterwards, so yeah, no, cults are one of those things that you could go down the rabbit hole forever and I think maybe we should do other cults. I'm down. I think we should explore let's do it right in.
Hannah:There's a specific one? Yes, please tell me, otherwise I'm just gonna pick a random one that's less fun that is I mean.
Courtney:Plus, I want to make sure, like I feel like I'm like tapping the mic, like is this thing on when I'm talking to social media?
Hannah:It's getting better, but you know, boss me around, tell me what you want to hear, and vote on our polls.
Courtney:I like it.
Hannah:Certain times I like being bossed around. I was just going to say she does not always like to be bossed around.
Courtney:There are times.
Hannah:You don't need to know the other times, but this is one of those times. Wicked Wanderings After Dark On that note.
Courtney:thank you, hannah. That was a really great episode. Thank you, courtney. Bye Wanderers. Bye Wanderers, till next time.
Hannah:Thanks for listening. Today, wicked Wanderings is hosted by me, hannah.
Courtney:And co-hosted by me, courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah:Music by Sasha N. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering. Thank you.
