Ep. 97: Strange History

Host Hannah welcomes her brother Jonathan to explore strange historical tales from a book called "Strange History" while regular co-host Courtney is away. The siblings dive into bizarre historical facts, personal anecdotes, and fascinating stories that range from the morbid to the amusing.

• The post-mortem journey of Eva "Evita" Perón, whose mummified body was displayed, hidden, buried in Milan, and eventually kept at her husband's dining table for two years
• Jonathan's childhood fascination with Egyptian mummification and the historical significance of ancient Egypt's timeline
• The "Wicked Bible" of 1631 that accidentally instructed readers to "commit adultery" due to a missing word
• Noah Webster's attempt to remove "smut" from the Bible by replacing words like "whore" and "teat" with milder alternatives
• The accidental discovery of phosphorus by alchemist Hennig Brand who was experimenting with buckets of urine
• The tragic and fascinating story of Grey Gardens and the complex mother-daughter relationship between "Big Edie" and "Little Edie" Beale

Please like and follow us on social media - TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. Let us know what you think about these stories, or if you have any thoughts or information to share!

Chapters

• 0:38 Welcome to Wicked Wanderings
• 1:23 The Evita Mummy Story
• 4:38 Egyptian Mummification and History
• 12:09 The Wicked Bible and Webster's Edits
• 15:44 Alchemy and Phosphorus Discovery
• 20:02 Grey Gardens: A New England Gothic Tale
• 48:33 Episode Closing and Social Media

Transcript

Jonathan: 0:06

This cocktail's fab. I'm so happy. I'm so happy for you Are we going to have any left for the beach? Oh, what a fucking bitch. Yes, we'll have some for the beach, okay.

Hannah: 0:33

Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney. Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal encounters and all things spooky. Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the darkness with us. This is Wicked Wanderings. Hello Wanderers, Welcome back to another episode of Wicked Wanderings.

Jonathan: 1:08

Hello, hello.

Hannah: 1:09

So our fabulous co-host, courtney, is not available today, so I asked my dear brother Jonathan to come in and help me record something for you guys. We have something a little different for you. There's been this book called Strange History. John, can you tell me who the author is?

Jonathan: 1:26

Strange History, Mysterious artifacts, macabre legends, bone-headed blunders and Mind-Blowing Facts is by. Oh, her name isn't actually on the cover.

Hannah: 1:39

Hold on a moment by. I know.

Jonathan: 1:43

By the Bathroom Raiders Institute, so it's definitely a conglomerate.

Hannah: 1:53

So Courtney had found it I, I think, at a Savers long ago and we were like, oh, this would be perfect. And me and Courtney were like, wow, we don't know enough about shit in here, so we left it to the wayside. But my brother, who is a renowned scholar of many things, he would be perfect for this. So he's found a couple things he wants to talk about and so we can discuss. And, yet again, please like social medias tiktok, instagram, facebook. Please let us know what you think. We, we want to know if you know anything about these, if you have any thoughts or links or any pictures, whatever maybe not some pictures for some things, because there's some stuff about concubines, we don't need to know about that, but if you, have any thoughts, please let us know.

Jonathan: 2:36

So there was one thing in particular that really caught my eye, and the title of the section is called the Evita Mummy. It immediately caused my eye because I don't know if you remember, you probably remember when I was a kid and still obsessed with ancient Egypt.

Hannah: 2:53

Obsessed. He's like eight years old. He's like, yeah, and then the brains come to the nose and I'm like, oh my God, it was eight o'clock dinner time. Like what's going on?

Jonathan: 3:01

I mean just I remember when we watched the Reading Rainbow and they went through Mummy's Made in Egypt. The book was Mummy's Maiden Egypt and it said it went through the whole mummification process and I was obsessed. I would read that book at a very young age. Obsessed At the breakfast table and I remember you being like absolutely disgusted.

Jonathan: 3:29

But then what did I buy? I mean, recently she bought her own copy of a canopic jar, which is exactly where they, during the mummification process, when they take out the internal organs, they put them into these individual jars, and my sister bought herself a copy of a canopic jar with anubis the jackal god on top we love anubis.

Hannah: 3:53

Anubis is the shizman is he's pretty great right he is. He is the god of the underworld in a lot of ways, correct?

Jonathan: 3:59

that's my understanding.

Hannah: 4:01

Yeah, yeah, I mean like it's so cool, like they kept these parts of people, their organs, or so they could have them in the afterlife.

Jonathan: 4:08

I mean they were considered sacred.

Hannah: 4:10

Yeah, I mean, it's fucking cool right now, all right, so guys just just picture it. Right, we're trying to eat our oatmeal over breakfast and my little brother is talking about organs. I haven't even gone through puberty yet, right, having a period. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Jonathan: 4:32

Like so I was a little too graphic over uh cream of wheat, but didn't you also write your?

Hannah: 4:34

own story about a young pharaoh. Oh gosh, I was like seven or eight. Yeah, do you still?

Jonathan: 4:36

have it. I actually do. Mom saved it for me I'm so glad she did.

Hannah: 4:40

Yeah, and it was about.

Jonathan: 4:41

The story was about a uh, young boy who was seven or eight. I was that age and his father, the pharaoh, died and it was part of I went through the right, about what you know right.

Jonathan: 4:53

I wrote in cursive, um, and actually it was interesting because it aligned really well with when my parents got divorced, um, and our therapist said it was actually very healthy for me. So I talked about the whole process of the father had died or left and it was the whole process of what happened afterwards his death, where he was buried, the process it went through and then the ending with the you know closing of the tomb and it was a really healthy you know healthy process for me to be able to be able to, to digest what was going on around me I would love to read that story again oh it's.

Jonathan: 5:36

It's not exactly a bestseller. I illustrated it myself in pen, but uh, since then I have been entranced by egypt. Um was supposed to go to Egypt on a three-week cruise down the Nile on my 30th birthday, but unfortunately that aligned with COVID so we've pushed that off to my 40th. So hopefully I'll be able to cruise down the Nile in a couple of years.

Hannah: 6:04

I think a lot of us understand the fuck you COVID of your 30s Exactly.

Jonathan: 6:08

My 30th birthday right during covid but have been obsessed with ancient egypt for ages, so when I saw this article that said the evita mummy, I was absolutely entranced, and I'm just going to uh give you a synopsis because it's relatively long, but most of us know who evita peron was.

Hannah: 6:29

No, and how she was a you don't no.

Jonathan: 6:33

Okay, cool. So maybe I'll do a little bit of the introduction and then I'll give you a synopsis. So it said. Former actress Eva Evita Perón became a crusader for the poor in 1940s Argentina.

Hannah: 6:45

Okay.

Jonathan: 6:47

Many people remember Don't Cry For Me, argentina. Many people remember Don't Cry for Me, argentina. Evita was played by Madonna and it was also played by Patti LuPone in different Broadway shows. She was a really extraordinary political figure in Argentina in the 40s.

Hannah: 7:08

Okay.

Jonathan: 7:10

Her husband, juan, was the president of the country from 1948 to 1954. She died from cancer in 1952 at only the age of 33.

Hannah: 7:18

So really a tragic death for such an extraordinary, pivotal figure in South America, juan.

Jonathan: 7:25

her husband had her mummified and put on public display, which is something I never heard of.

Hannah: 7:32

Is that normal for that?

Jonathan: 7:34

That is very unusual. Okay, so we have to remember that, the way the ancient Egyptians mummified their dead, no one to this date has ever been able to replicate it, not in the same way. So we do have mummies in other parts of the world, but more often than not they're natural mummies. So they will be a body that's left in the elements and it just happens to be very dry and arid, and the body will mummify.

Hannah: 8:04

Or like cold, cold climates where it's just like, or extra cold where?

Jonathan: 8:07

they basically freeze into a mummy.

Hannah: 8:09

So I feel like for the Egyptians and correct me if you know if I'm wrong or right but it was really for the elite that they were mummified in such a way where they were able to be so crystallized, I guess in a certain way Preserved yeah.

Jonathan: 8:25

Because this wasn't for the common folk, common folk, everyone in so with the egyptian idea of the dead, and we have to remember that the egyptian civilization was over a period of a few thousand years. So when we think about the fact that the united states has really only existed for 250 ish years and we still don't have it right, but anyways, we still don't have it right.

Jonathan: 8:48

um to anyway, we still don't have it right To mindfuck you. Ramses II, one of the most important pharaohs from what we consider ancient Egypt, would have considered the pyramids. Ancient Ramses II, as a pharaoh of Egypt, had archaeologists excavating near the pyramids because they were as far away from him as we are from him oh, good lord, like you guys mind blown.

Hannah: 9:15

So wait, was he the young, young, young one there was?

Jonathan: 9:18

he was a younger pharaoh, but he wasn't like chudin common. Chudin common was like 12 when he died uh, but ram is really part of the golden age of ancient egypt. But he would have considered the pyramids old. He would have considered he had archaeologists excavating about the ancient pharaohs.

Hannah: 9:38

But what I kind of love also about the Egyptians is that they didn't mind women in power. Right, because we think about Cleopatra, right.

Jonathan: 9:46

Well, that's a really good point. I mean Cleopatra, we think of her as kind of the part of the denouement, the ending of the great. Egyptian period when the Romans took over and Cleopatra was part of a Greek family. She wasn't Egyptian. No, I mean, she considered herself Egyptian.

Hannah: 10:06

Yeah.

Jonathan: 10:06

But she was technically foreign as part of that family. I'm trying to remember the name of her family name, but she considered herself very Egyptian but she was technically foreign as part of that family I'm trying to remember the name of her family name but she considered herself very egyptian but she was actually foreign. I want to say that she was greek, but I will double check fascinating.

Hannah: 10:20

But I just think some things that cultures back in the day, like when you think about men's fashion and how it's evolved over the years and you think about french men, how they were the ones that wore heels and tights and flowing hair.

Jonathan: 10:32

Well, especially when we think of Louis XIV to the 16th, like men would never do that and you look back in history.

Hannah: 10:38

that was what men did.

Jonathan: 10:40

Well, it was peacocking.

Hannah: 10:45

Right. People are so ignorant to how history has developed and how being like the socialized way of living has just the people are stupid. Honestly, that's the only thing I can think of.

Jonathan: 11:00

So the other thing I think of is, when you're talking about women in Egypt, I think of Hatshepsut, which was many, many, many generations before Cleopatra and we were talking about, I would consider, a hedgehog set pre-Golden Age, but she really created herself in the vision of a man, so she was a woman intrinsically, but all of her outward expressions she's shown in carvings and sculpture with the ceremonial beard of a man. So the idea that she had been born female was less of an issue and it was more important that she established herself in the proper visage of a male pharaoh.

Hannah: 11:46

So did that have to do with her being like, socialized as a male figure, or did it have to do with her sexuality?

Jonathan: 11:54

I don't think it had anything to do with either. I think it was more of how do I, as a born woman, hold on to power when my husband has died? And she held on to power. He was the pharaoh and she held on to power and when the next generation came up, they basically removed her from all of her monuments and I don't want to say that that is intrinsically anti-women. Most pharaohs removed their predecessors from their monuments. In ancient Egypt, the idea was that even if your predecessor created a temple, you might have somebody go out and rechip their name for your name or try and move things around so that it would be to your glorification rather than your predecessor. So we can't say it's anti-women that they removed her from monuments. But there was definitely something about her that said I'm in power, so I want to present myself in the same way that every other pharaoh has done, in a very masculine form.

Hannah: 12:59

Fascinating. Sorry I've derailed you from your original discussion.

Jonathan: 13:04

No, I could honestly talk about ancient Egypt forever.

Hannah: 13:07

I mean, it is an absolute passion of mine I think agent egypt itself is is spooky and it talks about death and and being okay with death. I think that's something that you know, john me and you talked about a lot about being okay with our own death right. Death is coming for us all. It's not something we can escape.

Hannah: 13:27

There's not not some fountain of youth, even though there's so many lore about a fountain of youth but it comes to us all and I think something with the Egyptians that they've realized is like death is coming to me, I need to prepare for it in whatever way I feel is going to happen in the afterlife and I think this goes from people that are atheists, other people to have a super religious ceremony, they need to do Like it's coming to us all and whatever we find comfort in is okay.

Hannah: 13:56

So I think the Egyptians actually play a big role in haunted horror lore honestly. So this has been very fascinating.

Jonathan: 14:04

I absolutely agree with you and, as you said, this is a conversation that we've had pretty frequently especially recently.

Hannah: 14:11

I agree with that.

Jonathan: 14:12

I mean probably recently, because with my divorce, you know almost two years ago now.

Hannah: 14:19

Sorry.

Jonathan: 14:20

I've had to. I mean, it's not a lot to me, I don't really care. Hey Back in the market. If you want a spooky bitch who's also a homosexual, I'm here, um, even though I have a fabulous boyfriend, but anyway, um always looking for friends um the idea.

Jonathan: 14:43

I mean I've had to go and reconsider all of my arrangements. So you know, simple things all the way to. I mean, with my ex-husband I had a particular plot that was, you know, only for certain people, and we had a will set up. You know, the estate was divided among certain people and certain nieces and nephews and certain siblings. Certain objects went to certain people and certain nieces and nephews and certain siblings. Certain objects went to certain people and everything seemed really organized. But then when you divorce, everything is thrown back up in the air.

Jonathan: 15:18

So as I go through things, I talk to you and I talk to our brother and I go and say I want this done and this needs to be changed. You have to reconsider your own demise. So it makes me think of the ancient egyptians.

Jonathan: 15:35

But very quickly to go back to avida yes, avida, sorry, avida we're now, in the 1940s excuse me, 1952 avida peron is dead, age 33, far too young for such an extraordinary political figure. Her husband, juan uh, had her mummified and put on public display in argentina, which I had never heard of. Uh, the procedure, which took about a year, cost him about a hundred thousand dollars in 1950s, money which is extraordinary. I wonder where he got that money. Um, uh, as many of us know who follow politics, during that period of time Juan fell from power as president of Argentina while his wife, evita, was still lying in state, oh dear. And he went into exile in Spain. And if you have to go into exile anywhere, I just adore Spain.

Hannah: 16:24

Of all the places. That's a good one. Sign me up.

Jonathan: 16:27

But he couldn't arrange for burial before he was exiled to Spain. So where did Evita go? Evita was put into storage like a piece of furniture in. Buenos Aires, and then she disappeared from public record. It turned out that anti-peronists, people who were against Evita and her husband Juan, making sure the body was never again used as a pro-Paron political symbol, had stolen the coffin, sealed it in a packing crate and buried it in a Milan cemetery.

Hannah: 17:01

Oh my God, Wait, wait, wait. How did she live in Milan? She traveled. That's my point.

Jonathan: 17:06

I don't there's no, I need like a like a sub thing. Wait a minute. You wouldn't have just thrown her into some other South American country. They put her in Italy. This girl's traveling more widely than she ever did in life. In 1971, we're talking almost 20 years later a sympathetic Spanish officer told her husband, juan, who's still living, where his wife was buried.

Hannah: 17:33

Juan Peron had her exhumed from milan and brought her to spain.

Jonathan: 17:36

Okay, when peron juan peron pried open the coffin, his wife was so proud well preserved from the mummification that he cried out, quote she is not dead, she is only sleeping oh good lord, okay um.

Hannah: 17:48

What was Peron, on?

Jonathan: 17:56

I don't know, maybe it's real wine. It's pretty good. Rather than bury his beloved Evita again, peron kept her around the house. I mean, this is a little bit A little too Irish for me. I mean not even Irish. It's like girl she's dead.

Hannah: 18:08

Girl dead, Girl.

Jonathan: 18:09

She's dead, he and his third wife Isabel propped her up in the dining room and ate over the dining room table with her every evening.

Hannah: 18:18

I'm sorry, the third wife was like okay, first of all third wife, but secondly the wife was okay with just like having her there.

Jonathan: 18:26

I don't know, this is a synopsis, so I mean, maybe she didn't do the full propping up, but even when they entertained guests, there was, you know, you, me and Evita. The arrangement lasted until 1973. So we're only talking about two years of Evita silent at the dining room table when Juan Perón returned to power in Argentina and left his beloved mummy in Spain.

Hannah: 18:51

Oh wait, I'm sorry, he just left her there, yeah.

Jonathan: 18:54

Well, it's expensive to move. Later, evita was brought across the Atlantic and finally buried in Argentina.

Hannah: 19:01

Oh, my God, this poor woman.

Jonathan: 19:04

I know she's pretty fucking worn out. Oh my Lord.

Hannah: 19:06

My turn. I need to find something that's crazy.

Jonathan: 19:08

Yes, you're welcome to Okay my turn.

Hannah: 19:11

Holy cow, I gotta process this.

Jonathan: 19:15

What Isn't that extraordinary? I mean, it mixes so many different things. I adore spain, I adore mummies and, uh, evita poron, but I don't think that was part of the broadway musical oh my god, that poor woman, oh my god.

Hannah: 19:32

I'm just gonna start saying oh my god, for like the next like hour, because I now remind me when did franco fall from power in spain?

Jonathan: 19:38

1954, oh, it looks like. Uh, franco died in 1975, so that's actually during the francoist years, which is actually a really interesting time to have your mummified wife at your dining room table.

Hannah: 19:50

Oh, my lord, all right.

Jonathan: 19:52

Well, I found something called next of skin as long as it's not cannibalism or skinning, I'm okay. Daddy, can't do it okay, then maybe not his stomach gets upset bible stories. Oh gosh, let's try it all right, girlfriends, let's go all right, here we go.

Hannah: 20:11

In 1631, a london bookmaker was printing an official edition of the Bible, but, due to a goof, one important word was left out of all of the printings. Not Not was the word that was left out.

Jonathan: 20:25

Wait, wait Through the entire Bible, yep.

Hannah: 20:28

The section it was missing from oh, I guess this is what I was saying the section it was missing from, the Ten Commandments. Result was the book listed nine actual commandments along with a sentence I read thou shalt commit adultery. Oh, I fucking love this it became.

Jonathan: 20:46

Thou shalt uh uh desire their neighbor's ass.

Hannah: 20:51

It became known as the wicked bible oh, I fucking look who.

Jonathan: 20:55

What mischievous, little intern did that.

Hannah: 20:58

I love this. And speaking of wicked, in 1883, noah Webster, of Webster's dictionary fame, complained the Bible was filled with smut. Words and phrases are so offensive, especially to females, as to create reluctance in young persons to attend Bible classes in schools, in which they are required to read passages which cannot be replaced without a blush End quote. So Webster rewrote the entire Bible, removing the quote unquote filthiest passages entirely and cleaning up the less offensive ones, words such as whore, fornication and teat Teat.

Jonathan: 21:39

I'm sorry, when fornication and teat Teat? I'm sorry, when in the Bible does it say teat?

Hannah: 21:43

Gave way to mild expressions like lewd woman, lewdness and breast Titties. Yeah, teat Me. And Courtney say teat all the time.

Jonathan: 21:54

I think that's hysterical, especially when we consider back to the episode you did about the Salem Witch Trials. It was all about teats.

Hannah: 22:00

Exactly.

Jonathan: 22:01

It was all about titties.

Hannah: 22:03

Which makes sense, because in 1883, he redid it. That makes total sense.

Jonathan: 22:07

It's so funny because he was basing that off of the latest translation from the ancient text, which would have been the King James Bible, which is Jacobine. So we're still dealing with a Bible that's several hundred years after its original translation.

Hannah: 22:21

But I think this proves the point. Men were dealing with the Bible like who the fuck said they didn't make mistakes beforehand.

Jonathan: 22:28

I mean, we're translating after translating after translating. I mean I will say that as a very queer child growing up. And, rob, if this doesn't work out, you can totally keep it in. But I really appreciated the old King James version of Sodom and Gomorrah personally as a very queer child.

Hannah: 22:55

Can I ask why, though? Is it just because they were talking about like men with men?

Jonathan: 23:00

Oh, yeah, I mean it was scandalous. I mean we understand now that the translation was the sorry, not the translation. The interpretation of that section of the scriptures was wrong. Right, Correct.

Jonathan: 23:15

We understand now that had nothing to do with men lying with men, right it was more, you had a very vulnerable visitor, with two visitors actually in town, the most, uh, vulnerable people in this new in in sodom and gomorrah and you're there to attack them and that was considered beyond reproach. That was a sin that could not be forgiven. You are taking the most vulnerable people of the populace, these visitors who didn't know anyone, and you were going to attack them and that was considered beyond forgiveness. And that can be totally understood when you talk about it like that. But when it's men lying with men, I mean there's also the interpretation of the fact that the people of Israel had to procreate in order to actually exist.

Hannah: 24:10

But that's different.

Jonathan: 24:12

Sorry, I'm on a tirade I'm going to have a cocktail, you're fine.

Hannah: 24:15

I'm going to read the last one. Early 20th century Ethiopian emperor menelik the second had an unusual habit when he felt sick or uneasy, he ate a few pages out of a bible okay, I don't.

Jonathan: 24:28

I don't know if I might take a little tums, but he was feeling especially sick after suffering a stroke in 1913 so he ate the, the entire book of Kings.

Hannah: 24:39

A few days later, the emperor died of intestinal blockage caused by the paper. Why, why? Why? Because where do we get paper?

Jonathan: 24:49

from Pulp from trees. You're not supposed to eat trees.

Hannah: 24:53

Why.

Jonathan: 24:56

Why did he eat it or why did he have the blockage?

Hannah: 24:58

No, why did he eat it? Why did he have the blockage? No, why did he eat it? Okay?

Jonathan: 25:00

but I mean, ethiopia is a whole different, uh, topic of conversation, which is really interesting because that's the country that we think that the queen of sheba came from. Oh, and that's where some scholars think that the um ark of the Tabernacle went to. And there are actually priests in Ethiopia who say that they are in charge of the Ark of the Tabernacle in Ethiopia.

Hannah: 25:32

Interesting.

Jonathan: 25:35

I mean, I don't think they eat paper.

Hannah: 25:37

Not so mellow yellow. Ooh, ever heard of alchemy, of course, it was a medieval science and philosophy, and one of its goals was to find a way to turn base metals into gold in a process called transmutation. Scientists now know that this is impossible, but in the 1600s it was a viable, potentially lucrative form of research. An alchemist from hamburg, germany, named hennig brand, believed the way to create gold was by chemically altering a very common substance. Do you know what it is?

Hannah: 26:14

oh, the core substance that they wanted to yes, a very common substance that they wanted to. Yes, a very common substance that they wanted to use. I don't know, straw Urine.

Jonathan: 26:23

Okay, maybe not the first place. Maybe I'd start with a different metal or you know, go the rubble stiltzkin route and do you know, Probably be better off going rubble stiltzkin route the hay into gold. But all right, we can start with urine.

Hannah: 26:37

At the time it made sense Okay.

Jonathan: 26:40

I don't know to whom People weren't dumb.

Hannah: 26:43

A prevailing theory of the day was that, because urine and gold were both yellow, some advanced form of alchemy might be able to turn one to the other, which is bullshit.

Jonathan: 26:52

Alright, I suppose they have crazies every generation.

Hannah: 26:56

With this in mind, bran spent months collecting urine. When he accumulated 50 buckets of the stuff, mostly donated by local soldiers, he put them into his basement to age or allow the water to evaporate out and concentrate the urine. One day in 1669, bran was experimenting with his bucket loads of concentrated soldier pee and ended up with a vibrant blue-green substance that appeared to glow to glow, I'm sorry, both in the light and in the dark, but brand couldn't get it to do anything else. In 1675 and their german alchemist named daniel craft purchased brand's blue goo and made a fortune, showing it off to royalty and other wealthy europeans really craft's act was basically magic tricks.

Hannah: 27:38

He'd light candles with the stuff, throw it into gunpowder to make explosions and write glowing blue green words with dehydrated urine yeah, it wouldn't be until 100 years later the blue green substance that brand had discovered and craft tried to take credit for would be named phosphorus. Today, phosphorus is abundant in manufacturing, commonly used in products just soda, fertilizer, matches, flares and fireworks and they don't have to get it from urine that's extraordinary.

Jonathan: 28:09

I didn't know that. Who knew we could all make a fortune from our own urine?

Hannah: 28:14

your turn. I can't be taught to find anything anymore.

Jonathan: 28:17

What that reminds me of is that one of my other passions is.

Hannah: 28:21

Collecting urine everybody.

Jonathan: 28:22

Not collecting urine, trust me about it. Flush that shit Literally. But one of my other passions is culinary history, and one of the things I did with my ex is that I really wanted to go to hampton court palace outside london and they have, uh, what's considered by scholars to be the most intact tudor kitchens okay uh, which to me is really interesting. And one of the things that I found really interesting was that, during the era of henry the eighth and we're talking about Elizabeth- I and also everyone, henry VIII, come on.

Jonathan: 29:01

Henry VIII. What did I say? Henry the no, no, you said Henry VIII. Oh, I said Henry VIII, no, but I just want everyone to know.

Hannah: 29:06

Like you've seen the show the Tudors, we know about Henry VIII decapitating some of his wives. Like, trust me, like Catherine de Medici. All that. You guys know who he is.

Jonathan: 29:17

I'm sorry of course Catherine de Medici was French. You mean Catherine of Aragon, right?

Hannah: 29:22

Catherine of Aragon, I'm sorry, she existed at the same time.

Jonathan: 29:26

So I knew, I knew you were thinking.

Hannah: 29:28

I'm sorry. I guess I just wanted to wonder is to know, like they know, who you're talking about. We're talking about the renaissance in.

Jonathan: 29:33

Europe yeah, we just happens to be England, but we're talking about, like the, a really upswell in terms of fashion, architecture and food, and so the Tudor kitchens at Hampton Court are pretty extensive. I mean, they're room after room after room. One of the things I found so interesting is that people would try and chefs would try and find the most innovative ways to create food, and one of the things was they would take children's urine to color different sorts of puddings or jellos.

Hannah: 30:14

I'm sorry what that people ate.

Jonathan: 30:17

In order to get a particular color. They thought it was fine Wow.

Hannah: 30:24

I, I, I don't, I, OK, wow, that, ok I mean. So I feel, if we're talking about urine, right, I feel like there's a lot of things that urine can tell about a woman because, you know, back in the day the Egyptians would talk about, egyptians, right, had ways of knowing through a woman's urine, depending on what seed flower it would nourish, if she was pregnant or not, right, and we look at.

Jonathan: 30:56

Oh really, I don't know anything about that.

Hannah: 30:58

I mean honestly, it was a TikTok thing. I don't know how true it is.

Jonathan: 31:00

Okay, so she would pee on a particular kind of seed Her pee would go.

Hannah: 31:04

She would pee into a bucket, but it would go into two different slots. The Her pee would go, she would pee into a bucket, but it would go into two different slots, the two different plants.

Jonathan: 31:10

And then they would be able to tell her if she was fertile.

Hannah: 31:13

Right.

Jonathan: 31:13

Or pregnant.

Hannah: 31:14

So if you're looking at when you pee on a stick, right when you're pregnant, like it's able to tell you if you're pregnant or not. So like it's interesting to see what urine can tell us. Right, it can tell us about diabetes. It can tell us, right, you can tell us about diabetes. It can tell us if we're dehydrated. Well, it's very true, um, medical wise, but I don't think I would put it in food. No, it can warm us, like if you pee into a bottle and you're on the cold.

Jonathan: 31:40

It's supposed to be warm, but well, that's only if you're, you know, in alaska and trying to survive.

Hannah: 31:45

I know but urine could tell us a lot. Yes, I guess that's my point.

Jonathan: 31:49

Don't put it in food well, I agree, but I don't think the tutors understood that it was so the tutors.

Hannah: 31:56

And what was the other family they were fighting against?

Jonathan: 32:00

um well, they fought a lot against a lot of people yes, what was the other family? Do you mean like the war of the roses? Yes I think it was the, not the, lancasters was it lancasters was game of thrones. Oh, I'm so sorry um hold on a moment, I'll be able to find it sorry, that's funny what two families fought they always pay their debts. Right, that's the lancasters or is that the the lannisters?

Hannah: 32:28

the lann. They always pay their debts. Right, that's the Lancasters, or is that the Lannisters? The Lannisters always pay their debts. All right, we're mixing things up here, people.

Jonathan: 32:37

I was right, the House of York and the House of Lancaster.

Hannah: 32:40

Okay, so Game of Thrones.

Jonathan: 32:44

But the Lannisters not the Lancaster.

Hannah: 32:47

I was right if I could this couch I bought on sale has been sitting out here so let's talk about horror movies oh yeah, have you told your fellow wanderers of your recent foray into East Hampton oh my god, let's talk and the air, the land of gray let's talk about gray gardens, because I have so much I want to talk about ed. She never answers. If you guys have not watched gray gardens, please, all right. I recommend watching the documentary first and then the movie with drew barrymore.

Jonathan: 33:30

It is the movie with drew barrymore was fab it was phenomenal and you're gonna.

Hannah: 33:35

You're gonna be sad, you're gonna cry, but you're gonna be happy, you're gonna laugh, you're gonna have so many emotions do you want to give a little bit of background, or should I go? For it.

Jonathan: 33:45

All right, let's go for it so many people would be familiar with the beals of gray gardens of east hampton. But I wasn't hannah wasn't, and the only thing I knew was about jackie. Kennie are a mother uh daughter duo the beals, who live in a crumbling mansion shingle style out in east hampton, new york, so out in the hamptons, and the mansion is called gray gardens gardens gray gardens, they'll have the the Transatlantic accent.

Jonathan: 34:27

So this mother-daughter duo were filmed in the 1970s by the Maisel brothers in a pseudo documentary. What brought them to notoriety was that they lived in this crumbling mansion for decades, seemingly without interaction with the outside world. What made them even more famous is that Big Edie, the mother, was the aunt of Jackie Kennedy, Jackie Kennedy Onassis and her sister. I'm trying to remember.

Hannah: 35:06

I see her in my head from the documentary. I can actually see her.

Jonathan: 35:08

I want to say Lee, but I'm going to remember. I see her in my head from the documentary. I want to say lee, but I'm gonna get that wrong.

Hannah: 35:12

Um who was their father? Do you remember their father's name? Author was I think jack um hold on one second, jackie kennedy and, mind you, you don't see jackie kennedy onassis in any of the documentary oh, I was.

Jonathan: 35:26

I was right, lee Radwell. Okay, yeah, but you don't see Jackie Onassis in any of the documentaries.

Hannah: 35:33

Her money is used.

Jonathan: 35:35

Yes, but you have to remember that the Beals were a very wealthy family who lived in New York and they had a summer house in East Hampton out in the Hamptons of New York, and they had a summer house in East Hampton out in the Hamptons of New York.

Jonathan: 35:49

And over time, after the Beals got divorced and the Sons moved away, and after a variety of very tumultuous things that happened to the daughter, little Edie, as she was called, little Edie and her mother, big Edie uh basically retreated from the world into this mansion in east hampton and let the world collapse around them.

Jonathan: 36:12

Uh, until the 1970s when lee raswell, who was the sister of jackie kennedy on asses uh was uh decided that she would film a pseudo biography film with her friends, a variety variety of filmmakers, including Andy Warhol, while she was staying out on Montauk at the very end of Long Island, and she would use her aunt, big Edie to help narrate part of that film of her life growing up in the Hamptons. And in the end that project was shelved. But what happened was that the Maisel brothers, who were part of the film crew, fell so in love, entranced by the Beals of Grey Gardens, that they wanted to come back the next summer and they did to film more of them and they are this charismatic I I call them new england gothic duo very tragic mother, daughter, because I think there's something it is tragic it is tragic because I think so.

Hannah: 37:16

I've talked to john a lot about this and I don't know if it's I think he agrees with me, but I think there's a relationship that only a mother and daughter can understand, where it was this very tragic love for each other, but they hindered each other from a lot that they both could probably have accomplished in the end, especially from a mother-daughter relationship, um, housing your child. In a way. You're like I need a companion, I need someone to be with me. You are my, my mini me. You are named after me, you are like me. You have this very eccentric personality and I need you around me to feed me in certain ways.

Hannah: 37:58

And I think that little Edie had a lot to offer society and she had big views, especially back in those days where she was willing to be a certain woman and not have any cares about it, like I am me and I'm going to be me, and she wasn't allowed to flourish in the way that she needs to. But there was also this love for her mother and didn't want her mother alone, and she felt a certain need to be there for her and a love for her. So there's it's complex, it's way more complex, uh, than just watching it, and because you watch it and you're like, oh my god, this is so funny. And then, especially after seeing the movie, I think it helped me understand the relationship a lot more, because I tried to cinemize a lot of that earlier, things that you just don't see in the documentary.

Jonathan: 38:54

Absolutely and I completely agree with you. See the I think the original film by the Maisels was Grey Gardens and the summer before, which was something you just saw, with me a couple weeks ago.

Hannah: 39:09

I think it's called that Summer.

Jonathan: 39:11

Yeah, because there's the documentary, but there's also an extra part that I hadn't seen yet with you, and that film which was filmed a year before, which was honestly the beginning of the Beals, kind of coming into their own. Because they hadn't really spoken to anyone for about 10 years, which is really extraordinary, and that had a lot to do with Lee Bradswell and that whole film that included Andy Warhol as a producer. That film was only discovered a few years ago which is really extraordinary.

Jonathan: 39:44

And then, of course, we have the wonderful film the semi, semi, I think, fictional, semi-fictional film uh, with uh drew barry moore, and I'm trying to remember the fabulous actress from american horror story american horror story you know what um this is what good phones are for. You'll find it but seeing the core film, the film that was filmed year before, and then watching the film with Drew Barrymore Biography, biography and then the film.

Hannah: 40:17

Jessica Lange.

Jonathan: 40:18

Yes, I think that's it.

Hannah: 40:20

Yes.

Jonathan: 40:20

I will trust you.

Hannah: 40:21

Fabulous.

Jonathan: 40:23

What I love about this is that, again, I consider it. I mean there's a certain kind of film and fiction in writing that's considered Southern Gothic. I don't think we talk enough about New England Gothic.

Jonathan: 40:39

And I know there's a lot of people who argue about the idea that New York is part of New England. Parts of it are, parts of it aren't. New York City is not but, like Sleepy Hollow, is, and I think that the Beals of Grey Gardens can be considered part of the vernacular of New England Gothic and I think there's something really extraordinary about it. So if you haven't seen the biographies, if you haven't seen the film with Drew Barrymore, you have to see it.

Hannah: 41:08

And also kind of going with the connection with Andy Warhol and American Horror Story. So I just finished the season of Cult with American Horror Story and actually had Andy Warhol in it. I mean, of course, an actor.

Jonathan: 41:20

Oh, did it really? Yes, Remind me who's the director Ryan Murphy and Brad Falchuk director ryan, murphy and brad falchik. So in in the cult uh series is that the one where they go underground? No, that's apocalypse, yes, which actually is next for me.

Hannah: 41:36

I can't do cannibalism um, I didn't know that one had cannibalism, so I'm looking forward to it.

Jonathan: 41:40

No, no, don't look forward to it no, because I watched cult now.

Hannah: 41:45

Now apocalypse is all right, all right so so yeah, so they actually had a part in cult where they go back in time with andy warhol when he was shot originally yes, absolutely.

Jonathan: 41:59

What an interesting.

Hannah: 42:00

You should have an episode on that yeah, it was fascinating I think american horror story tries to be as historically accurate as it can with certain things.

Jonathan: 42:09

But they also run with other things. I mean, Ryan Murphy was also the director of. Was he involved with the Drew Barrymore Grey Gardens? Oh, I don't know Because that seems like his stick it could have been. Because he did Feud with Bette Davis and Joe Crawford. I never saw that. Oh, it's fab. I mean it's not horror but, it's. You know, in my social group we all say what does a gay man love more than anything?

Hannah: 42:43

Two beautifully dressed women ducking it out, two beautifully dressed women ducking it out. I just I think what I thought was so interesting about it was that I didn't even know that Andy Warhol was shot originally and lived so the fact that they brought that into the series of cult and how he actually was pretty nasty towards women originally. Yes, he's a controversial figure yeah, like for a guy that's okay reproducing campbell signs. I mean, it's wait, what well? Anywhere how with his campbell campbell?

Jonathan: 43:18

not cannibal I'm sorry, campbell yes, I mean, but that's pop art, or what do they call it? Fauvism Faux.

Hannah: 43:28

Now I'm out of cover team.

Jonathan: 43:30

But you have to remember that Andy Warhol, for all of his faults and I think he has a lot of faults- Apparently something that no one else was willing to do and he took the ordinary of the new consumer era and he turned it into high art. He was the banksy of his time and I think that we have to respect. He was a nasty person, he was an elitist, while also he considered himself a man of the people. I think he was a really complicated figure, but he did something in art that no one else was willing to do and it gave us pop art. It gave us a new wave of art in the future that we would never have had without him and I'm grateful for him.

Jonathan: 44:33

But the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh is not going to get my money because, I'm not a fan, though I will say when I lived in New York City right after the pandemic kind of pseudo-subsided we were invited to. Right after the pandemic kind of pseudo subsided we were invited to. My ex-husband was a priest so we were invited to a person's home and this was a beautiful townhouse in Brooklyn, beautiful Victorian townhouse I think it was four or five stories, single family had been owned by the same family for probably four or five generations. It was purchased in that part of Brooklyn during the Depression.

Jonathan: 45:15

It was purchased, it was the gentleman who owned the house was a black gentleman and his ancestors purchased it from a white family who basically had gone belly up and they had sold it out to a black family who had the money, and a lot of houses in that neighborhood had been sold out because of that During the depression white families sold out because they didn't have the money to black families, and the black family had sold it generation after generation, from one to another Kind of a beautiful thing in a really sad era.

Jonathan: 45:46

It was fantastic that they were able to step in. And I mean now that house is worth millions, but they had such an extraordinary art collection. And one of the things that I pointed out to my ex was I was like that is an original Andy Warhol and what it was was the that kind of grainy image of Jackie Kennedy. It was an original Warhol. In addition to how much would that?

Hannah: 46:12

be worth.

Jonathan: 46:13

Quite a lot. They had an extraordinary art collection Damn so.

Hannah: 46:21

Well, if I had any Warhol that was worth something, I might appreciate him more.

Jonathan: 46:27

I don't know if you remember, but in high school, do you remember, mrs maz?

Hannah: 46:30

oh yes okay who could forget mrs maz, with spanish class?

Jonathan: 46:34

so she came from relatively wealthy family, I think in new jersey.

Jonathan: 46:37

Yeah oh, she had stories she had lots of stories was a major buyer in new york and all of a sudden she came up to western mass and who knows why. But when she left, when she graduated high school, her parents said you can have a trip to europe or you can have whatever you want. And she had decided that it was between a trip to europe and she ended up going to spain. Um, or this original andy warhol which were the. It was a, an art piece with a photograph of the rupee slippers of judy garland in the wizard of oz, which now would be worth its weight in gold. And she had decided because she found it in a junk shop in new york city. And they said you can either have that or you can have a trip to sp. And she took the trip to Spain.

Hannah: 47:29

I remember her talking about a story about going to see someone famous and like going over a fence or something. I don't know if you remember a story like that.

Jonathan: 47:39

I don't remember that.

Hannah: 47:40

Yeah, there was a story with a fence and dogs and men with guns, something like that. I don't know it was a very know.

Jonathan: 47:48

She was fabulous. I just wish I don't know. I just wish I knew more of her stories.

Hannah: 47:52

Yeah, it was definitely a Maz story. Yeah, thank you, jonathan. This has been a very interesting podcast episode.

Jonathan: 48:02

We've been roaming all over the place, so feel free to cut me into various episodes, but you know'm always available I'm only a phone call away.

Hannah: 48:12

Well, it's better when you're in person, though, because it sounds better than that's also true. I have a really sexy voice on that note, wanderers, thank you for joining us once again, thank you for having me.

Jonathan: 48:24

Thank you and court Courtney.

Hannah: 48:25

Bye Wanderers.

Jonathan: 48:26

Bye.

Hannah: 48:27

Thanks for listening. Today, Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me Hannah and co-hosted by me Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.

Hannah: 48:35

Music by Sasha N. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a rating and review and be sure to follow on all socials. You can find the links down in the show notes. If you're looking for some really cozy t-shirts or hoodies, head over to the merch store. Thank you for being a part of the Wicked Wanderings community. We appreciate every one of you. Stay curious, keep exploring and always remember to keep on wandering, your condoms falling off excuse me your condom's falling off. Excuse me, your condom nice thing.

Jonathan: 49:32

Oh, I think you need to give contacts when you record that my condom's falling off. I haven't used a condom in years.

Hannah: 49:41

That's what Rob calls. It is a condom.

Jonathan: 49:43

I'm like excuse me, rob you can absolutely cut that out.

Hannah: 49:48

I don't need to be known as a slut.