E6 - Summer Papachan - NU Grad Student Unionization

This week we have Summer on the show to discuss her role in the current Northwestern University grad student unionization efforts. We talk about the union's successes and tribulations, while also having a larger conversation around social equity and resource distribution.
Summer is incredibly brilliant and we have a great convo, tune in!

Resources for your reference:
https://nugradworkers.org/

https://dailynorthwestern.com/2023/11/14/campus/graduate-workers-union-rallies-for-timely-bargaining-response-to-economic-demands-from-nu/

https://dailynorthwestern.com/2023/11/02/campus/graduate-student-parent-group-finds-disconnect-between-caregiving-needs-and-nu-resources/

Transcript

Unknown: Hello and welcome to. Next stop, Chicago. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day. Whenever you're listening to this podcast today, we have a really special guests. They're all special. As you well know by now. But this is also a friend of mine that goes back to DePauw with a W. Greencastle, indiana. Her and I chuck hagel and Mike's class together and suffered through the mind numbing. Just insanity that is Hegel and then had some fun reading Marx, getting in our bag, getting in our leftie bag. It was good. But now Summer Papa Chan is doing wonderful things and big things. She works with the Northwestern Union of Grad Workers and she is currently actively involved in the negotiations with Northwestern University for Better Health Care. A bump a bump raise of 37 K to 50 K for all the workers, better support for the parent students and also help for the international students. And so today we're going to pick her brain, ask her how the unionization efforts are going, and we're just going to shoot the shit and have a great conversation. So, Summer, welcome to the party. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan of the show, you know, big fan of you. Your work. So honored to be here. Thank you. I appreciate that. So you're like right in the thick of it. It's November 18th when we're recording this. I'm sure you have school that's kicking your ass. You know, you're she is getting a doctorate in poli sci people. So look out for her. Look out for her in the political world. But you're good. You know, you have a lot of homework with that. You're also unionizing and you're also just doing you and living your life like how are things going. Mhm. I would say things are going pretty well like right now I'm in my third year of this program and I got like basically three more years to go. A lot of my life nowadays is taken up by obviously, you know, doing research for my dissertation. So there's a lot just reading there. And then I'm teaching, which is like one of the greatest joys of my life, honestly, cause I love my students, you know, shout out to all my students and then, yeah, unionizing like I'm on the bargaining committee. So that basically means like me and like 25 other like elected bargaining committee members from like all different parts of Northwestern, like the medical school, physics, business, school, anthropology and political science. So like all the disciplines, you know, and where yeah, bargaining for like about 3000 workers grow workers first ever historic contract you know. So it's a lot of work, but I'm doing well and I'm kind of enjoying how busy it is, to be honest, because it's like stuff that I've had a privilege to, you know, be involved in. You know, this was like historic shit. It's really meaningful. And so I'm like stressed out, but like, in a good way, it's a good stress to go. Stress. Stress. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's always like some shit that is, like, going down and like, we absolutely must address right now, you know? And so can you give us some, like a little bit more context on this current unionization movement? You're saying it's historic, right? So this would be the first ever contract between Northwestern University and grad workers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, like, just just to give some context about unionization for graduate work at all, right? Because like a lot of people have historically and still today see us as students. Only the university always said, you're students. What are you all yapping about? Union for? What work are you all talking about? The students. You're lucky to be getting a Ph.D. here. Right. And but the thing is, ever since, like the eighties and nineties, like public university grad workers have been unionized. Like they've had the legal right to unionize since then. But private university grad workers did not have that right until 2016, when the NLRB, you know, basically made a law. They said, okay, we've agreed that grad workers are workers, like any of the workers now had a right to unionize. But then Trump came into office and like basically just suspended the NLRB. So we had to like our Northwestern and a lot of other universities like wait until he was gone and then R.B. was back up on his feet for us to be able to like file for an election, you know, basically among all the ground workers So like be like they all want a union. And then when everyone's like, yes. And at Northwestern, we had 93.5% of a yes vote saying that we want to unionize. And it was only like 100 people who were like, no. So we won pretty big. And that's kind of been the trend like for a lot of like pretty much all recent, like the recent wave of grad, um, unionization like you, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, M.I.T. like Stanford, Princeton, like all these places, like, really, really high. Yes. Votes. Just because I think people have been waiting for this for a long time, you know, like people don't unionize because they're bored, you know, or because they think it's, like, cool. Like they unionize. Because they need it, you know, and they're like convinced that this is the way to get what we need to get to live and shit. It's not just a trend. It is a trend, though. It is a trend in a good way, though, you know, there's good trends. It's definitely a trend. It's cool to be in a union right now, which was not the case, like, I don't know, three, four or five years ago. You know, like people are talking about this shit so much more now than they were then. I'm so happy about that. It's a good thing. Yeah. To that point, I feel like there's been a marked shift in perspective from like vilifying unions and saying like unions like are corrupt and they're making it harder for the government to work things, to work businesses to work. Right now it's more like, well, especially after COVID, right? People are like, well, we kind of need unions. Like, this is crazy. Some of the shit that these large companies and universities get away with, which is really pretty shitty, it's like, you know, like that is a very gilded thing to do by a university. And the whole thing is preaching equity and moving towards justice and creating new, new literature and all types of subjects. But you want to subjugate the people that do the work that's fucked up. Exactly. It's very like challenging for Northwestern, for example, for their public image, because, like, they really see themselves as like a liberal university, you know, that's like different from like U. Chicago, which is like kind of known to be like a right wing university. Right? But then it really challenges their image when they're like, Oh, here, union busting, when they're like setting up like a website to, like, spread misinformation about, you know, what a union is or basically just having a crap bargaining committee with their lawyers telling us we can't get a fair wage, even so challenges their image. Can you elaborate on some of the union busting tactics that they've employed during your unionization drive? Yeah, for sure. You know, I will say just because it's good to be like, you know, aware of like the scope of things, like I would say that they haven't been as bad as like Mitt admin has been when it comes to their unionizing efforts or like, you know, some of these other big corporations. But like definitely during our election they set up like this website and send it out to like all the faculty, everyone, all the grad students being like pros and cons of unionization and like made it seem unbiased. But basically they, like, called us communist, like, they, like, named that. And we're like, the union that they're affiliated with is like pro socialist, you know, it's going to like bring all these issues into, like the workplace relationship of faculty and like students, you know what I mean? Basically they did that and then like, um, I would say that since we started bargaining, they've been like canceling our bargaining sessions. Like that's like a union busting tactic in the sense of you're not bargaining fairly, you know, because like, for example, we just had a bargaining session scheduled for this week that they just canceled like four days in advance, giving like no reasoning at all. So that kind of like just extends the process so much more. I mean, like, people just go so much longer without the things that they need, you know, like a wage, you know, like childcare grants, health care, whatever, so stuff like that. MM Yeah. The union busting shit is, is definitely crazy. Like I hear about the Amazon ones where like they're like are like, Oh, go snitch. If you think someone's talking about a union snitch or it's like in the bathroom, it's like you're just trying to have a break from the hellhole that is the distribution warehouse, right? And they're just like, don't say it, say no to unions and all this propaganda. And like Birmingham, Alabama is like Amazon Union. They literally like put up a fake voting booth, like in the middle of like their parking lot where everyone can see and said the word Amazon on it. So it kind of made the workers feel like Amazon's going to read their like unionization ballot, yes or no, which is like literally illegal. But then, you know, it works. And then the only way the remedy is are you go complain to the NLRB about it. Yeah. Like, no, it wasn't. Didn't do that. So shut out. They didn't put up a fake voting ballot. And so, um, we talked about the fact that you guys were demanding better health care. So that means more comprehensive and more robust. So vision, dental, the basic medical, all those. And then one thing I wasn't aware of is the international students aspect of it. So you're telling me that they have to pay more, right, to like work at the university because of all the fees and the visas. And so yeah, yeah, yeah. International students and I'm not an international student, but like, you know, a lot of my friends are because it's the norm for grad like elite like universities to just bring a lot of their labor pool. In grad workers from like just around the world because like, you know, they're actually like bringing talent from like around the world and then using them as cheap labor, kind of. But knowing full well this is like some of the most talented people from around the world to do, you know, research, teaching, whatever it may be. But yeah, like international workers have been some of the, like most ardent supporters of the union, like some of the most like gung ho, even leaders like department organizers and stuff, because they they go through a lot of shit when it comes to like visas and immigration and like being able to work for the university. So like for example, they have to like pay to work at a university essentially because they have to pay like a lot of like visa fees, immigration fees, visa northwestern that like they say, the federal government, you know, like holds them too. So sometimes it can be like thousands and thousands of dollars a year and we're like, yeah, Northwest needs to cover that. You're employing these people. You got to you got to foot the bill or like the burden of like employing people, right? Because like this is going out of their compensation and they're already not even making a living wage. Right. And then also it's like they have like a lot of like issues with taxes. So like internationals have to pay a lot of taxes. But and Northwestern is pretty much their only resource for like tax like forms and like, you know, I mean, things like that and like the university just like underfunded international workers like staff office. So they like so people get like tax forms like super late and then they end up getting like docks by the dock by the IRS for like fines and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like sometimes like hundreds of dollars. Like, I know some have like $850 one taxes and, and just fines, but they hadn't there was no fault of their own. It was like Northwestern didn't give the forms on time, you know. So there's like a lot of like daily stresses and like on their heads, like constantly about navigating. All these things are like, I'm going to get deported, I'm going to get kicked out, you know, like if I do one wrong thing, I'm going to have to, like go back home a lot of times to go to like you're flying home to like do all this visa stuff because I'm some of you can only do in your home country and like Northwestern would be like you don't have time off for that. So, you know, figure that I'll go during Christmas break and do it because you don't have to get time off to do whatever legal crap you need to do to like continue working here and they just don't have any resources for it anyways. So that's a long winded answer to some of that. Yeah. And so well that's, that's quite cheery but no, no, no, that's okay. Yeah. Um, but so I have just another question on there. Do they get paid the same amount as the Nationals? They do, they do get paid the same amount. Okay, well that's good. But they get taxed more. They get time to get tax form. Hmm. Yeah, I have some friends. Well, you know them from, like, Zipcar. Like we have some friends, like, from Pakistan and India, like to, like, keep their visa, right? That's like apply to grad school or some shit like, yeah, stay in the country, which is terribly unfortunate because like, we need their brains, right? Like we're literally actively stealing these very intelligent people from other countries. That's right. And then basically holding like a gun to their head and being like, okay, like, go here, go here. Otherwise, get out. Um, yeah. So international students, um, you know, I think that's something that we should all kind of be more aware of. Like if you're, uh, you know, domestic student, just have, have a little empathy and compassion because you have no idea what they might be going through. Um, but also to that note, right? Let's talk about parents. Students. So you think of students, right? What is what is, what is your image when you think of a grad student? Right. Usually maybe like someone in their mid twenties or early twenties, late twenties, whatever, like incredibly depressed OCD, um, bipolar, you know, like just dying, just mentally just jumping off a cliff, essentially. But kids, right? No, you don't really think of kids, but you work with a lot of grad workers that have kids, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. There's a lot like, um, and, you know, like interacting and grad workers who have kids on their every day just really makes you realize the importance of a union, because it really just highlights that, oh, shit. Like the wage we get, people are running families on those, you know, like there's like chil. So for example, like you, you even mean like I don't have a kid right now, but when I entered my program, I was like looking at six years of my life and I'm like, I had to put my life on hold to, like, you know, have a family because I'm in grad school because, like, you know, I clearly don't make enough to be able to support a kid or multi person family like our kids, like any kind of. There's there's no option to, like, have them be covered by your health care, which is like the main way people have their kids, get health care and be able to the doctor covering like, you know, all the costs associated with like birth in a hospital, like, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I feel like parents really also are leading the struggle because they face, like, immense poverty. Right. Like, people are on food stamps and, like, government benefits while working at Northwestern University. Right. Like, it's like crazy. It's one of the most wealthy institutions not in the country, but in the world. And like it's workers are on food stamps, you know, the endowment, you know? Yeah. It's 15 billion. $15 billion Billion with a B with a B. Oh, my God. That's insanity. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. And they want to build a new field. Yeah. 800 million. They're just raised in, like, a year or whatever for to downsize the stadium. The issue is it's too big. Oh, yeah. They're like this. Yeah, it's actually so funny because they're like, this is too big. We want it to be small, and they want to rezone it to be a for profit entertainment complex so they can make even more fucking money. Yeah. And see where the priorities lie. Exactly. Exactly. Because they'll be like, we can't pay for all this, you spoiled brats. 50 K, That's too much. Like, we don't have the money, you know, we'll just go bankrupt. And it's like, what are you talking about? Like, if anyone, any, any employer in the world, you know, had the money to do it is y'all, you know, spending a hundred million on a frivolous project, but downsizing. Yeah, they're downsizing it. Well, you know, minimalism. Minimalism is a trend. It's a kind of a trend that's trending right now. Yeah. Oh, so but you also said that you, as private universities have only been allowed to unionize since 2016, but public universities have been able to do so since the eighties. Yeah. And so what are the big differences for a grad worker at a public institution compared to a private. That's a good question. I feel like there's something I don't like know as much about as I want to because it's like really different. Like a lot of the like labor laws that apply to like both groups like private public is like pretty different. But like, I know that like they've been, they've been seeing the gains of unionization like for sure. Like, you know, like UIC worker grab workers in certain departments make like 48 K and it's like their public like the amount of money UIC has compared to Northwestern is like fractional, but like they're paying their workers better because they've been, you know, they like, I think their last contract, they got like a 14% raise. Like that's like pretty like unheard of, you know, because. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is a lot of differences, but I'm not fully tapped in. Well, I mean, 48 kids were on 37 kids. Sure, sure. That's for sure. Mhm. Um, that's just crazy to me that privates private institutions couldn't unionize till seven years ago. Is it funny? Because there's, like, no difference, like, in the work that we do? Yeah. And the work we do, there's no difference. It's the same work. It's just like if your government supports working people or not and, and they were like, we don't want this to spread, okay? Like it's already spread to some workers. We don't want all of them to have it. Like, it's like you don't have it right that you should be having. That's true. Yeah. Cause it's like there's no difference between, like, qualitatively, the work that ground workers at public or private universities do is it's just like, does a law reflect the reality or not? And it didn't. Yeah. I mean, you know, Reagan in the eighties and the the cutting of funds to public universities and in general the switching to like the tuition based system over like actually subsidizing, you know. You know, I'm not any of that, actually. Yeah. Yeah, let me know. Well, so they say that like so like back in, like during the civil rights movement. Right. And during the Vietnam War process, a lot of that was coming from university activists. And essentially, this is like the jaded, cynical view that some people have is that Reagan, in response to the growing social consciousness coming from these institutions, cut their funding and made them rely more on a for profit system because there are too many people getting kind of like hip to the times. So like you had a lot of first generation immigrants. There's actually from the book A Different Mirror by Ronald Takaki. Um, he speaks about this like a lot of first generation immigrants were starting to realize that it wasn't race those dividing them but. And so there is a lot of mobilization and efforts to come together in the way he kind of responded to that was to slash funding and drive them out, because if you can't afford it, you're not going to go. And if you're worried about your bills, you're not going to protest. Yeah. Uh. Oh, my God, that's actually crazy. That makes so much sense, because, like, I feel like that makes for a sense because, like, the kind of students that universities let into their campuses, those kind of change the political climate right on campus. Like if you only let in people who can pay 60, 70 K a year and that's just like what your student body is made of. There's going to be certain things that are in their purview when it comes to demands that. That, you know, would be very different if, like most people are coming from a working class background first and backgrounds, which is how it should be, right? Because it's like there's no difference in like intelligence. It a difference in access, right? We know that. Anyway, that actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you for letting me know about that. Mhm. And you know you make that, you just made an excellent point. Right. Like the way that the community, the student body approaches situations depends on their life experience. Right. And so in the case of UIC, we were just talking about how like it's actually a really good school, it's not considered prestigious, but it gets it done right. Like people can go there on an affordable scholarship and they have actual better pay. But if you think about what are the demographics of UIC, it's a commuter school. People are coming from the west side, the south side, the north side, just to come for a few hours every day. Most people aren't even on that campus. So whereas Northwestern. Right. And DePaul, the W we're talking old money. Old money. We're talking like some Jay Allison, Django Unchained, Leonardo DiCaprio's in some ancestral trees there, you know, so literally, like comes with all of that shit. Yeah. And also, like, we had like residential requirements, you know, like you've got to be like in dorms for two years and like, basically have to live in Greencastle because girls would, you know, and I know it wasn't do they have like a residential requirement? So it's like everyone lives there. And and the thing is that like, there's a lot of like at DePaul, like a lot of like working class students where they're on scholarship, they're on like, you know, financial aid. But like the burden of having financial aid on your head, you know, definitely makes you move differently than like, you know, if you did it and if you don't feel like your place in this university's precarious, you know, and the crazy thing is, you know, I would also say that, like, people still do so much organizing despite all of this stuff that's like set up against them, right? Like at DePaul, we did so much organizing. They're still doing organizing. There's like all this, like good work that like undergrads are doing and leading right now. Like, I feel like right now doing, like, powerless, you know, like the entire situation in Palestine, you know, genocide of Gaza, if I may so say, which is accurate. Like the students on all these campuses are really like leading the way and they're like teaching those, you know, like Students for Justice in Palestine, SJP, like they're putting so much on the line to like organize. So shout out to the students. Nevertheless, the students are working hard. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Know the situation and, uh, uh, yeah, um, really no words. I mean, it's not like on your dog. It don't cause you got to be tearing up. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's just. I just. There's so many. I feel like we live in such a polarized world where no one really will have a nuance. The big the big mainstream narratives are not nuanced, right? Yeah. So it's very like you're either one side or this side, and it's like, no, no. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Uh, you know, it just bothers me because it's like they think, like they invent. So what is it called? Infantile. Infantile. Infantilized. Infantilized. Yeah. Like they make us. They infantilized us with these, like, black and white narratives, and they don't trust us to, like, give us the grade. Yeah, you know, and, um, it's just like there's misinformation all around, and you can't have, like, a conversation about this without knowing, like, being scared, right? That's what's terrifying is that that subject matter, when you discuss it, you know, you're putting yourself out there and you don't know what might happen because of how polarized. Yeah, the world is right now. So props to the people speaking up. So these kids. Yeah. For like speaking out because like know like people are getting they're getting arrested, they're getting dogs and they're still out here being like, no, we don't care. It's not it's not it shouldn't be embarrassing or, you know, shameful to be like there's genocide or not. We're not. Michel. So let me ask you a future future leading political scientist, some Republican, you know, put on that idea real quick. Like what? From a political science lens, what do you think of that situation? Um, you know, like, yeah, you're here, you're smoking a pipe in a in a dusty library and you're told to comment on it and your perspectives. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think the, like we talk about how we frame things a lot in political science, right? Like there can be a political movement or a political. Issue. Right. And the frame. You can almost think of it like a picture frame. Right? Okay. Like say that you're looking at a scenery, like just in the real world, but then you have like a frame with you, right? And you just like, put the frame around a mountain and you move it and you put it on like the sun and a river. And it can move a little bit and a little bit less river, more of like, you know, something else you're filming. So it's like how you frame things really matters and like what you include in that frame, right in the purview of like what you say. This is what's relevant right now. I feel like looking at the media, you know, like people do a lot of media studies about like the kind of words that come up a lot, right? Um, and like October 7th comes up a lot. Like Hamas comes up a lot, right? Things that don't come up a lot is like 1948, you know, the Nakba, right? Like the word genocide of Palestine, you know, Gaza, the word Palestinian doesn't come up a lot. Right. And so I feel like media studies teach us a lot about how this issue is being framed. And the point I'm just trying to make is that I would say that the timeline here doesn't start on October seven. It starts in 1948 during the Nakba, right when like Israel invaded an indigenous people where, you know, they were they were living for a very long time. Right. And essentially, like committed genocide. What we talk about like in the US context of like the Trail of Tears, like that's what they did with the Palestinians. They were like everyone here pack up and at gunpoint, you're leaving. You're going to like another land, right? We're going to we're going to build an Israeli settlement here. So as you can see, like very classic signs of colonialism from the actually, like you can see how like Theodor Herzl was like in like British Parliament, who was like one of the founders of Israel, forgive me if I get it wrong, but he was in like this like paperwork about how he was in the British Parliament trying to buy for support for the project of Israel to be built in Palestine. So like, you know, Jewish people need land and that's a fact. But he was the argument he used the British tell them that, you know, you all should support us militarily and funding wise is that the British? Y'all are the great colonizers of the world. We're only extending your project. You should understand what we're trying to do in Palestine because you've done it so well in South Africa, in Africa, in India. So we're trying to extend that project. And the British were like, You know what, you're so right, we will support you, you know? So if you ask me, it's that's when the story starts, you know, like it's a colonial project and like every colonial project in the US, for example, right? People are like, yeah, the US, the settler colony do. But to say that, does that mean that I want all the Americans to be killed? You know, everyone who's lived here, the white people, the immigrants, you know, from Asia, we're mean like no, we just mean that we want justice, you know, and we want to give the indigenous people a voice. And it's kind of like how what I would say about Palestine is like, say, say the name of Palestine just as loudly as you say, the name of like Israel, you know, say Islamophobia just as loudly as you're saying anti-Semitism right now. Right. Or like say that 11,000 people have died in Gaza and that that and that the death there is not equal like you know, that's what I was saying about that. That's so think of the picture picture frame. Yeah. How things are framed. And I agree. I mean, absolutely. Like the I mean, America has chosen a side very obviously, they've been very open about that. And $40 million a year goes from Chicago to support Israel. Motherfuckers, 40 million, 40 million. We got people sleeping on a train every night in the cold every night. Yeah. Man down. America has chosen the side. Yeah, and you're right about it is a colonial project, and it is the only colonial bastion in the Middle East. So from a geopolitical standpoint, it makes sense why it is so highly coveted from one one side of the geopolitical spectrum, but it doesn't make any of it. Right. And, you know, I think I obviously I didn't grow up in the eighties or the seventies or the sixties, but I feel like sometimes empires and colonial powers can act out in such like barbaric ways and so unapologetically that it makes the masses feel a little crazy and confused. Right. It's like being told, Oh, like, I'm not stabbing you and you're getting stabbed, you know, like, so I don't I don't blame anybody, you know, for being confused about the matter. I just think that we should approach this with empathy primarily for the people dying in Gaza. Obviously, it's not very fair. But we should also approach it with the fact that, like a criticize, a critique of Hamas is not a critique of all of Palestine and a critique of Israel is not a critique of all Jews. Um, I think that's something that we don't really talk about now because again, we're very polarized. Yeah. Say something interesting to sort of bring it back to unionization. Like right now, you know how like every organization or like a lot of organizations are, especially like universities, you know, are like, should we put out a statement, you know like, have you heard of all the statement politics? Like, oh, like this group condemns this. So, you know, I mean, like in this time. So, like, the union has this question of like, should we put out a statement and we represent 3000 workers and a lot of them really want us to see something very pro-Palestine. I would say the majority from what I can see, want us to see something very pro-Palestine. But there's definitely a lot of people who want us to condemn Hamas, like basically, you know, say that a cease fire means like genocide of Israelis. Right. So we got like a very broad spectrum of views. Right. As as it just reflects, you know, the views in Chicago over executions in America. But anyways, so we're like having to as like union people who are responsible for leadership for now having to decide like, what do we do in this time? And it's like, okay, there's like being unbiased, right? And staying out of it. But then it's like, well, you know, is that picking a side still? Cause then you're letting the whatever is dominant, like just have the last kind of a thing or anyway. So we're like debating that a lot. Like, we have put out a cease fire statement. We have done that, but we got a lot of backlash for it. Like not a lot. I would say there was ten people, but they were very loud. They were like Zionists and they were like, No, this is terrible. And we were like, um, not expecting it a little bit. But now again, we're like, you know, probably like 9000 more people have died since then. Mm hmm. So we're we're we're gearing up to, like, kind of go through an entire, like, democratic process to get, like, all of our membership to vote on, like, some kind of resolution, a referendum to, like, pass something, you know, calling for a cease fire or something like that, you know. So, yeah, like I think a lot of groups are debating this shit right now. Like actually I was talking to a friend of mine and I said to you, shout out Anna who is in after me, which is like it's like a very big union for like, I think it's like the biggest union in Illinois membership wise But she's in the library, workers like kind of local of the union. And they just signed on to a very like big democratic process on a statement that calls for ceasefire. You know, and like a lot of unions are down there, you know, electric UAW who's like, you know, popping off right now. Some local of them have signed on to that same letter, you know, so it's like but yeah, it's like this total, you know, I feel you about like, what can we say right now? Because it's so divided, so polarized, but people are really risking it. And I think pretty much anything, you know, right now. Yeah, yeah. I don't think it helps that Israel has the most far right government ever in its history. And Netanyahu is becoming an authoritarian dictator who completely overhauled the judicial system after everyone told him not to. Mm. And I think that speaks volumes to kind of who's running the show right now. And that's somebody who can we really say has the best interests of everyone? Probably not. You know, this is. This is empire. This is, um, this is colonialism. This is imperialism. Um, it's the same same beast under the new mask. That's right. Yeah. And so that's the tough one, right? Because unionization. Right. Although, like, it's it's really funny. This is a very this conversation's ebbing and flowing through lots of pockets. So, dear listeners, I hope you guys are not too confused. And I'm having fun. I'm having fun. Oh, well, you know, speaking back to unionization, right? Like that is mobilization of the masses. That is, people taking a stance and people setting a boundary. Right. And like shout out therapy. Right. Like, boundaries are important. Why don't we have social boundaries? So, you know, we have boundaries for communities and why do we overstep the boundaries of communities as well? Yeah, that's beautiful. I never thought of, like, boundaries for like a collective. Right? But like, you're getting stuff done, right? Like you are a here. So what, you have to read these papers to grade these papers are you got to. Lectures sometimes will give lectures, but the main part, like it or like leading thing that we do is like we lead section. So like, you know, at DePaul we just had like class with our professors. So the professor will do a lecture whereas like, you know, 200 people and like put kids also in the thing. But then we run all the discussion section. So it's like, all right, again to a group of like 16, 20, 25, ten, whatever it may be, and we discuss. So like, yes, runs action grade, office hours, all the stuff help the professor, whatever crap they want to have with God, they're going to fire me. But it's true. Like sometimes the professors are great and I've paid for professors who honestly changed my life for the better. I've been like some of the best people to work for it, but and sometimes I have to for people who make you want to quit, you know, because they like overstepping boundaries, like texting you like texting you like telling him to like do some work for the class that was unnecessary by like 10 a.m. the next morning, you know, because we don't have a contract, they're not violating anything right now. Is that one of the provisions, the hours, regular working hours like this, basically 8 to 5 p.m.. We're like, we will do work in regular working hours. That's pretty big for grad students because like you say, like we work around the clock like like think about default. Like we just worked all the time, you know, on school stuff and they didn't like the same norms in grad school. Yeah, I remember grad school. Well, I loved it, but I hated it. Yeah. I mean, I know the worst mental health in my life. Yeah. You say in grad school? Yeah. You weren't I t right? Yeah. I t maybe shadow grade school grade school. Super rundown and like shitty looking, but the people are great, the professors are pretty good and it's like super rigorous from a technical standpoint. That's amazing. And so for me, I studied applied math, so it worked out because, you know, it was very technical, so help me out. Yeah. Um, but I feel like I met guys that I met, I worked with people that were in like six different groups and it's here and doing this and was engaged. Like I'm like, do when the fuck do you sleep? You know? Yeah. Like when Salt Lake. Seriously, like there's this the culture, the academia cultures is really bad. You know, it is everyone is exhausted and everyone wants to compete, but everyone's passive aggressive and, like, anxious and has low self-esteem and very insecure. Yeah, but also overconfident. It's just like a bunch of impostors running around. Just running around. Yeah. Grad school is a bitch, man. I can't imagine doing it for six years, though. I know, I know. And tell me about it. And yeah. And I think that people like because in a Ph.D. it's like I mean the reason I after like DePaul basically right. We got like evicted slash graduated, you know, you know, all in the same moment. And then I worked as like unemployed, but then like, you know, finish all my school work. And then I worked as a nanny basically like in Chicago, cause I was like, it's a pandemic. I don't know, like, what kind of job I can get, you know? And then I worked at like a domestic violence shelter at night, and I was like, kind of just thinking about grad school, you know? But being like, I can't, like, I don't want to go in debt for, for, for grad school in a pandemic time. And so me doing a Ph.D. was like, okay, like you get a pretty good stipend, like, you know, 37. It was 36 at the time. I was like, This is great. Like, you can make a livelihood out of it, kind of. I was like, This will be my job for the next six years. So it's kind of that's kind of how like I think a lot of people do think about it. They do have families. They're like, okay, like this is my job, you know? So it's like you kind of have a job with like a six year guarantee, but it's not a guarantee. What did you who did you how old is the person you know? Huh? Oh, does the person you married? Oh, they were two of them twins. There were six. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out those kids. I want you to agree. Kids like a little bit over a year. And then I got into grad school and I was like, I can quit. It was really fun, though. I really enjoyed it. It taught me a lot like, you know, kids got their own world and I just kind of like, sunk into their world a little bit. Like, I was like, really into, like, magic at the time, super into arts and crafts. Like, it's like I had a playlist for them, you know, Beauty and the Beast was just all, you know, it was like the oldest, like, six year old. So, you know, it was cool. Yeah. But then I kind of missed them sometimes, actually. Oh, yeah. I was like, really sad to quit. I was like, Oh, I have to go talk to, like, boring old people about stuff. When we just been chillin all day, I was also tutoring them because they were doing online school. Oh, you know, it was like online school time. The parents were working. So yeah, great kids. They taught me a lot. To six year olds. Oh, my God. They were twins. Sounds like a lot of work. Was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. Yeah. It really also taught me, like how? Like it. I feel like I had to develop a lot of skills kind of on the fly of, like, management of two kids who don't want to, like, listen to anything, you know, and like in the patients, you know, like I think I had more patients than like their dad. A lot of he told me that, too. He was like, You're really patient. I'm like. Thank you. You know, but like, it is a skill to not take things personally, you know, because, like, once one of the kids threw a stuffy at me because they didn't want to, like, do whatever worksheet their teacher was making them do. And I was like, Oh, my God, how do I not take this personally? Skip through stuff? Yeah. I mean, how dare you like that person? That's like, should I cry or. Yo, I did neither. I was like, I think, you know, the best thing is you just got to tell them, like, that really hurt my feelings. I'm really sorry. Now, you know? And then they'll feel bad. That's yelling at them. That's the key. Yeah. My mom taught me a lot of stuff. She's like a preschool teacher, you know? So nice, so fun. Fact for cause that most of you, probably some of you will know some or some of you won't, but some are actually from Mumbai. And she moved here in high school or two before high school. Naperville, Illinois. So just imagine one of the biggest, most bustling cities in all of India. Fucking party, great city. And you fucking land in Naperville when you're a teenager, you're probably like, What the hell's going on here? It was there a lot of culture shock to that? Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy because I was like 14 and I was like, I love Mumbai. Like, that was all I knew. It was like, the best thing ever. All my friends, you know, school. Like there's a they like to hang out in which you say gender like kitsch. Kitsch like all look like nonsense that happens every day. But no, you love it. And we are inseparable. While because there was a lot of white people and I spent a lot of time just looking at them, I was like, they have really different features, you know, like they just got their own world, you know? And I don't know, it was pretty it was pretty shocking. I think that I was like kind of I kind of like hunkered down and just, like, closed my brain a little bit to like absorbing the shock of things. Like, I kind of became a little bit of like, like, I mean, like a hardened shell. So at the time, like, I remember someone asked me, they were like, like a friend's parent or someone's like, you just moved here, like, you know, are there any differences you see between India and America? And my answer was no. I think people are the same everywhere. Like that was my answer because I was like trying to prove that I was okay, prove that I was not like completely lost, right? About who I am in this new world. What this new world is that I am in, you know. Yeah, it was. But I didn't I didn't enjoy high school very much. I mean, I had friends. I have friends. And honestly, I think my I think my mom and I debate this all the time cause my mom's like, you had a great time, high school wait time. Your mom was like, you love it. You had fun. And I'm like, man, I really, you know, I had some good teachers, you know, like, I did my thing for sure. But I think, like, college was when I really felt like, okay, like, I think I get it in this country. I think I get it a little bit more like Greencastle. Indiana is where you grew tired of is where I figured America 100%. I was like, I think I get it. What light bulb moment did you have? Really, this is America. I think, you know, that's how you were. It was like this mothers of you were feminist. Yeah. So like, I was like really involved with feminist. The freshman year is just like, you know, women of color. I don't know what they're doing now, you know? But back then the women who were there were really though, and they were the kind of things they would talk about. They really called out, like, I heard the word white people for the first time in that space. They were like, Yeah, white people be like this. And I was like, Wait, that's so true. You can call those Americans white people. Like, I didn't you know, I didn't mean because I thought it was rude to say that you you know, because I just I didn't have the vocabulary to kind of articulate, like, the racism you could say that I was experiencing, you know what I mean? And it wasn't a lot like a little bit enough to, like, make you a little sad, I guess, like in Naperville, you know what I mean? Like, my mom is a lot of like, you know, people will they refuse to, like, talk to her, answer her questions or like she had an accent. And I tell her, like, I'm like, your accent is not that heavy. She'd be like, No one in this place can understand me. So, like, you know, she isolated, you know, I changed my accent, like, within, like, two months of getting here, cause I was, like, I just mirrored whatever people were speaking around me. Mm hmm. Yeah, I know. I will say shout out and everyone with high school for not actually being that white like them. I think diversity like because it was like of the two schools, it was like the poor one or whatever. The other one, though, was 95% white. Oh shit. So, you know, and I was the 60%. So anyway. Ours is just 60%. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, shit. Boy. Neighbor. What did you land in Naples all over the place? It's interesting, cause, like, we were supposed to live in Chicago, but our, like, visa and immigration stuff got really delayed So to the point that, like, we missed all the deadlines for, like, high school admissions, essentially, and my parents were have been scared about like the, like public school, whatever, like the school that, you know, um, don't have all those admissions tests and deadlines. So they just moved to like a bird, but like someone told them about their, like they were like there's a lot of Indians here. My dad was like, okay, we'll just go there then. That's basically how that went. You got to just move to Taiwan. Could I just could I just answer the one? Yeah, well, India kind of just, um. Yeah, well, that Davon is interesting. So for anyone who's never seen the just divine st in general, it goes Loyola. And then it goes like a bunch of African stuff. Divine like it. And then it gets really Indian, then it gets really Pakistani, and then out of nowhere, it gets incredibly orthodox Jewish. Exactly. And you're like, what? Like it's the gambit of. Of people down the fucking road. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. But in little India, you. It's straight up. You're like, am I in fucking India? Or like, everyone's in the and the vibe is completely, completely different. Yeah. Is crazy. I love it. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, are you going to go back to Mumbai so soon? You know, I up until I would say, like senior year of college, that was my plan. My plan was like, I'm going back home. Like, I'm going back home. I'm going to live my adult life in Mumbai, you know, because it always had this grip on me, you know, I was like, This place is fine, but my home is in Mumbai. I need to go back, you know. And my parents brought me here. But like when I go back to the motherland. But I will say that I don't know. I think I just fell in love with a lot of people at DePaul, you know, made me like life, you know? Yeah. Like, just really my really good people. And then we moved to Chicago, like, you know, pretty much when I went to college. And so, like, being in Chicago was like everything. So I was like, okay, like the space is cool. Like, it reminded me of Mumbai a little bit as much as like a U.S. city can, you know, I guess cause I think I just was used to city life. I grew up in city life in the burbs destroyed me. Um, but yeah, I think I love. I really fell in love with Chicago too. So then, you know, I kind of just like, Oh, that dream to go back forever. I'm going to visit a for some kind of a party. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like, see my friends, like, do all of that totally. But I don't know, I like Chicago a lot now, so I think I'm here for good. Any other U.S. city live in, any other U.S. area? I don't know. I don't I think right now I'm a say no. Like not going anywhere in New York. No, no, I in New York. No, no. New York shout at summer. But no, I'm not going to New York. No, too busy. Too busy. I don't know it. You know, they don't know me, you know. Oh, that figure of Thursday. Sure, yeah. How about you? I feel like you're trying to if you're trying to globetrotter a little bit, so. Yeah, my family's all over. So I'm going to stay in Chicago for a few years. And, uh, obviously, so I thought about this. I'm like, Oh, fuck, if I move, I just start a podcast called Next Up Chicago. You got to see this project through, so I got to see the project through. So I'm going to stay in Chicago for like two or three years. I coach basketball and I love it. So, oh yeah, I clapped yesterday. Our fun story. In fact, we had a game yesterday and we lost 33 to 4. Just wait. There was three kids on that team. We were like five, 11 and six foot. No. And you're telling me these are seventh graders? This kid was doing like 360 spin moves, like all this crazy shit. I have a kid that is literally five foot. I'm like, bro, like, this is I mean, he's adorable, you know, he works as so hell. Yeah. So they played great defense. My team played great defense. Defense. You know, at that age, when the kid is bigger than you, there's not much you could do. And my coach and I, we saw the other team and we were like, Oh, fuck you. Like, We're fucked. But they played their hearts out. They played good defense, but we got a lot of work to do offensively. Uh, but I'm still in Chicago. Maybe in New York or maybe Brussels because my sister lives in Brussels and I love I take French. Like I'm studying French. And so I think it'd be fun to live in Brussels. I love I'm very family oriented. So the reason I stay in Chicago is because my parents are nice. And then if my sisters in Brussels, you know, I have some family there. But my main goal is just try to be close to my family for now. Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I feel like my parents aren't going to leave Chicago. Yeah. So then they're the only family I have in this country, so, you know. Yeah. In a good way. I actually have a cousin, but, um, immediate family was. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. No. Family is a beautiful thing. I know you notice Thanksgiving, so this is very topical, you know, but it'd be Thanksgiving. So a lot of my friends at Northwestern, I think actually pretty much literally all of them are from Chicago. So they're like either from like Texas or Brazil or in Turkey and Florida. Mhm. And so like none of them lived next to their family and like I don't know how they do it cause I don't think I could do it. I mean I only applied to schools in Chicago for grad school for a reason cause I was like, I don't know, like, I'm family oriented to, like, you know, I want to be there for them. I want them to be there for me. Yeah. It's beautiful. Mhm. Yeah. It's Thanksgiving coming up. So, uh, Thanksgiving, everybody. Enjoy your family. Even if they suck. Sometimes, you know, you only get one part of the family. Um, with that being said, Summer, is there anything you want to tell the audience before we wrap this up with a nice bow? Oh, my God. I would say that, you know, thank you all for supporting Farouk, who is, you know, one of the best podcasters here in the game. Okay. Okay. Um, yeah. I don't know. What else would I say? I would say, you know, be kind to yourself. You know, take it easy. You're doing great. You know, help out others when you can. And that. Happy holidays. Happy holidays. And support. And you. And you. GW Oh yeah. Follow us on Instagram. Western Union of Grad Workers and you grab workers on Instagram. I will put stuff in the show notes for you guys to reference if you're interested and, uh, you know, reach out, volunteer if you're interested. I'll help out any way you can if, if that's something you're, you're privy to. With that being said, uh, we're going to wrap up this episode and, uh, wish you guys a happy Thanksgiving. Happy, uh, happy Black Friday for all you consumerist consumerist bastards. And, uh, just have a great week and, uh, stay tuned, like, and subscribe, uh, piece.