E10 - Madison Burger - Bacterial "Vegan" Leather and the Future of Fashion

After a long hiatus we have Madison Burger on the show to discuss her work researching and cultivating bacterial leather. We talk about how she got into the field, the newest trends in leather alternatives, her work with Plant Chicago, and her work with Chitown Bio.

It's a super informational episode and Madison provides a nuanced and highly informed take on the alternative leather industry.

Chapters:
 0:00 - Introducing Madison
1:47  - Welcoming Madison
6:08 - Fun Facts on the Leather Industry
11:21 - Alternative Leather Durability
14:23 - Discussing MycoWorks
16:54 - Pinatex
17:54 - Differences Between Alternative Leather & Real Leather
20:24 - Looking at Bacterial Leather Samples
21:00 - Pellicle
27:00 - Madison's Work with Plant Chicago
30:00 - Developing Tissue Paper Alternatives
33:00 - Disrupting the Traditional Industries
43:18 - Tanning Process Explained
45:00 - Jennifer Doudna
48:30 - Discussing the Ethics of Gene Editing
51:00 - Madison's Work with Chitown Bio

Links:
ChiTownBio- https://chitownbio.org/

Plant Chicago- https://www.plantchicago.org/

Collective Fashion Justice- https://www.collectivefashionjustice.org/

Madison Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/madisonwildsburger/

Madison LinkedIn- https://www.linkedin.com/in/madison-wilds-burger-578583141/

Transcript

Unknown: Hello and welcome to. Next up, Chicago. Today we have, you guessed it, a very special guests because they're all special. And today we have Madison Burger on the show to discuss a lot of interesting things that she's currently doing. She currently works making single celled organism technically leather and by a non. How what is the best way to describe this product? Yes. So I'm sort of researching and developing leather alternatives. Okay. Leather alternatives, whether alternative materials that are regenerative. So just thinking about processes that are easier to sort of grow, like to grow a little bit quicker. Mm hmm. And also just thinking about, you know, like, how to create new materials without using, you know, for example, cows. Yes. Yeah, that's a big one. So animal free animal free leather alternatives. But it's not just leather, folks. If you again, the links will be in the show notes and I hope that you check it out. She's also made a photography film. Boots, right? Yes. And then some shoe samples to show you. We have some samples. We have some shoes. So she's made a lot of different things, but the main focus is on leather. But this conversation will be about more than just the technical and what Madison does. We want to have an in-depth conversation about the future of fashion and the current alternatives popping up in the market. And we'll provide you guys with some fun facts that will help us frame the conversation, because I don't know if you know this. The leather industry, the tanning industry is pretty bad. I think it is very not climate friendly. And for the people that don't know where leather comes from, it primarily comes from cows. Some come from sheep, some come from goats, but mainly it is skin. And that's how it's been done for thousands of years. And Madison and wonderful people like her are working on alternatives. And so that's what we're going to shoot the shit about today. So formally. Welcome to the body. Thank you. I'm super excited to be here and to talk to you and all your listeners about where where we think the future of fashion might go. Yeah. And so give us a little background on yourself. You are so you are a art consultant by day. Yes. So very fun job, I'd imagine. Yeah. So, yeah. So right now, sort of full time ish position, I'd work with this wonderful woman named Shashi Cordell. She's an art consultant and advisor here in Chicago. So, yeah, I kind of work with her in art consulting, design consulting, thinking about how we can help clients build their own personal and public collections. Yeah. Looking at, you know, innovative ways to use art and design to enhance physical spaces. So, yeah, that's it's kind of the the 9 to 5 really fun, lots of research oriented. But yeah, so aside from that, I'm sort of developing this leather alternative. That's my sort of research pursuit at the moment and looking at, you know, how can what we're discovering with these new sort of biomaterials kind of pave the way for thinking about this sort of new sort of next generation of materials that we're slowly, slowly but surely starting to see pop up in, you know, the fashion industry but other industries as well. So, you know, like automotive looking at, you know, really nice leather interiors and thinking about how we can switch what we're used to sort of using and fabricating with. So, yeah. Oh, exciting. Yeah. So the art and design consulting is really fun because, you know, it's, it's a little bit it's adjacent to my, my leather alternative research. But is really it really creates constant sources of inspiration to think about, you know, you know, looking at beautiful interiors for clients and what could the future of these leather chairs and, you know garments look like? Mm hmm. Nice. And so you are clearly you have a background in arts and fashion. You went to SAIC and Pratt. Correct. Yeah. So I did a semester at the School of the Art Institute and then I transferred. Yeah. So I grew up in Chicago. Chicago born and raised nice. And I did. Yeah, I did a semester there. And then my mom is. From New York. So I visited New York a lot as a kid and kind of I for a while wanted to go to New York for school, but wasn't totally sure. And then, yeah, I just decided I wanted to transfer to Pratt. I was kind of looking at Pratt and Parsons, but Pratt, you know, fell in love with their campus. Really beautiful school. So, yeah. So I transferred to Pratt and I studied. So I started in photography and slowly kind of realized that I was really interested in the sort of chemical process of creating black and white images in the darkroom. So like film photography, less so digital. And yeah, I eventually moved into studying fashion and textile design. And so at Pratt, what was really amazing is that when I was like a junior, they first started offering through their School of Interdisciplinary Study, an option to design your own customized minor. Okay, so at this time, I was majoring in photography and minoring in fashion. Mm hmm. And then I built a customized minor that focused on sustainable materials and more so, science and tech textile design. So, yeah, so that was really a catalyst for thinking about how can I take, you know, art and design and science and combine everything together to still create. So shoes. I was emphasizing in shoe design. Mm hmm. Create, you know, really cool shoes and fashion and wearables, but that are maybe made from materials that are more environmentally sort of friendly or just, you know, kind of more thoughtful. Much more thoughtful. Yeah. A lot of waste in the current way that we make things, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, being in the fashion department, you really started to pick up on, you know, what goes into making garments, how, you know, what are all the materials we're using at a, you know, at a scale, you know Louis Vuitton, for example, at a scale. Think about how many handbags they're making, how many leather jackets, leather coats, leather boots. So especially focusing on shoe design. You know, I saw an area of fashion that really sometimes exclusively looks to using materials like leather for its durability. So yeah, just kind of really got me thinking about what are ways that we can, you know, still create a beautiful, long lasting, flexible, natural looking material, but without having to go through the processes of leather tanning, which involve harsh amounts of chemicals, you know? Yeah, we could we could definitely dove into that. Yes. If you want. Not sure what the this is where the fun facts come in. Yeah. I love fun facts and so just like looks about to get real eye contact for the people listening at home or in your car or an office wherever you're listening to this. I am fascinated with like systems and like climate change and like just lots of systems, like just tech and just stuff like that. I studied like Collapse Theory in college. Oh, wow. So you talked about how, like, the unsustainability can ecological overshoot. Mm hmm. Lots of concepts. And so when I when you were down to do this interview was like, fuck, yes, you guys should talk about your you're good to talk about collapse and collapse. Yeah, but I'm an optimist. You know, people's hear collapse theories, they think we're like Dumars. I am not. No, actually, very positive. Yeah, likewise. Definitely. Take the root of radical optimism. Mm hmm. Yeah, but. Okay, let's sprinkle to sprinkle negativity on us. Optimism. Let let's give you some facts, man. This is so tiny. Oh, here it is. Okay, so facts about the leather industry cowhide, like we said earlier, is the most commonly used skin tanning. One kilogram of leather, that's £2.2 for everyone at home, uses up to two and a half kilograms of chemical substances in 250 liters of water Think about that. One £2.2 of leather, two over two liters of water generates up to 6.1 kilograms of solid waste. So for one kilogram you've made six kilograms of waste. And interestingly enough, leather accounts for 26% of major slaughterhouses earnings because they take the skin, obviously. And then the chemicals that you were referring to earlier, which I think is wonderful, that you're working on alternatives because these chemicals are fucked up. You have a collective fashion justice. More than 90% of leather is tanned, using a combination of chromium, formaldehyde and arsenic. Hmm. That's a great resource. Also a collective fashion justice shout out. Interesting stuff. Really, really wonderful people running that. And now to bring it back to optimism, this is a misnomer. Vegan leather. And we can discuss this. But alternative leather markets, which is a better term, are projected to be worth nearly 90 billion in the next five years. And this is we're not talking plastic leather because plastic leather sucks it degree like what, a few years. Yeah. It doesn't have the same feel, doesn't have the same touch. Also microplastics, that's probably one of the biggest you know, if you buy a plastic sort of vegan leather jacket, you know, every time you wash it, you've got thousands, hundreds of thousands of microplastics that shred through that wash cycle into, you know, water supply. So. Yeah. Microplastics is also a really big issue as well. But and so with your leather alternatives, right, one thing that you said recently or a little bit earlier was that water, water retention rate and water solubility are the most difficult things that you guys have to account for totally. And so does that impact like the durability of this leather? Yeah. So right now, water solubility, so specifically with bacterial cellulose, which is the the organism that I'm sort of researching, it is a naturally water soluble material, which means that it's not water resistant. So it will break down with contact with moisture. And, you know, if someone's sweating on the material, it's not ideal. So right now, I would say, you know, the biggest the biggest hurdle is to discover ways of either growing the material in different ways through maybe potential editing of the gene to think about how it can not actually be water soluble in its final state. That's kind of long term research. In the short term, it's looking at what are ways that we can coat the material with a sort of sealed outer layer to protect it from breaking down, so to protect it from the elements. And that layer also has to be eco friendly. You can't just use like varnish. Yeah. Polyurethane. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, like polyurethane, it's it's considered a more, I guess, more environmentally friendly way to finish a material to make it automatically water resistant. But, you know, that's still I think the goal here is to really think about what are all of the possibilities that we have either not thought about not thought about yet the non researched as a whole you know in synthetic biology that are you know ways that aren't kind of taking the short cut of you know, make a beautiful material that's good for the environment but seal it in plastic like the goal is definitely to figure out how to make a material that every element or as close to every element is also still aligned with being able to break down naturally and not yeah, you know, not kind of taking a shortcut just for the the short term gain, but also thinking about long term, what are the solutions here and so long term with like this problem of water and water, lack of well, too much water solubility, obviously it dilutes and water degrades. We would like it to last a long time. Mm hmm. Persistent contact to water. The solution to that as much down the road as what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, I think there's there's a lot of potential solutions. So I think it feels like it's further down the road. But, you know, I think as myself and the people I'm working with continue to research and develop, who knows, the it could happen faster. And, you know, there are a lot of companies. So I'll I'll mention it's a company called Miko Works, which is Miko Works, which is making a leather alternative material that's grown from mycelium. So the fruiting sort of root structure of mushrooms. And so what's really interesting about this material is mycelium is already naturally water resistant. So it's a material that, you know, the barrier to entry is a little bit different when thinking about how to scale this technology, because you don't you don't have that that sort of issue of the material is naturally water soluble, right? So yeah, that's just one approach. Yeah. So one approach. Yeah. So, you know, some other I'm definitely a purist. So my, my end goal is to be able to, from start to finish, create a single layer that's grown and as close to, you know, like a height of leather as possible without having to go necessarily the route where, you know, a lot of companies that I've been researching that are in similar biomaterial fields, they're looking at creating like a composite material. So, for example, you take maybe a bunch of apple waste grind that up, create a pulp from that mix and, you know, other materials, other kinds of binders and then kind of. Lay all of that kind of like finding the best way to put it, like lay that whole material out. Yeah, it's kind of like a batter, like, like baking. And then that is, what is your material? Like, I think that is definitely an area to explore. And I've created samples with that kind of method that are actually super durable and very flexible. But I think that's, you know, that's one route to go. I think the goal would definitely be how can we either engineer this gene to be a little bit different or come up with a topical sort of solution? And so right now. Right. You said that they use mycelium this or Michael, which is mycelium? Mm hmm. Other companies, they use mangoes or pineapple. Pineapple or apple or lots of Texas peanut pinatex pinatex is it's a textile made by this company called a NAS ANAM. And they are based out of the Philippines where they're taking a bunch of bark from pineapples, like all the leaves and trees, like repurposing those into a composite material like what we just talked about. Pinatex Pema Sacks Yeah, really cool company. Okay. And so there's a lot of like a lot of ways we can approach this problem. And I feel like with each solution, there's a compromise, right? Mm hmm. So the mycelium one, you're you're saying your peers, you're like, I'd rather not have these composites. I'd rather have it, like, engineered. We can make it from, like, the genetic compound or whatever. Yeah. What is the drawback to the these waste byproduct leathers? Because you said that they're durable and they're pretty flexible. Do they not hit the texture? Right. Well, like, why would I be like, oh, the real other stuff? Yeah. So a couple I mean, a couple things to just kind of think about if we are really trying to make materials like thinking from a consumer or a purchaser perspective of, you know, I produce leather handbags and I want to, you know, replace that material, the leather that's got this beautiful grain, beautiful texture, flexibility with a material that's just as nice, if not better. Like what? Like I often try to think from the perspective of, you know, versus what do I want? But more so what are the people who are going to be designing with this material, potentially buying it? What are what are they going to be looking for? Mm hmm. And I think with the composite materials, a couple of things there. The the grain. So like the texture, the finish of the material, the grain of leather, like real leather is always unique. It's a part of the cowl. It's a part of what you know, what the lifecycle of this animal sort of has gone through will affect that texture that you have versus working from a composite. You're creating an artificial grain. So, for example, you have these metal rollers or like impressions that when the material is flexible, these sort of patterns or grains are, like impressed in to them. Mm hmm. So they're not, you know, they're not a part of the original sort of esthetic, like the the original quality of the material, which I don't think is a, you know, a negative thing whatsoever. I think it's definitely a way to bring another material to the market. But, yeah, going back to, you know, what I the qualities that I love about leather and as a material because I do think it's a really incredible material is is and I think that there's ways to tan it that align with being environmentally friendly. And that's just what the majority of the world doesn't do. Mm hmm. But thinking about, like, with bacterial cellulose, for example, when you grow it and harvest it and dry it and finish it, it has its own. Do you want to see a sample? I'm like, this is the perfect time to bring out a sample. It has its own unique thing. Yeah, there are samples being pulled out. Whoa. Holy shit. Yeah. So, like, it has its own. Yeah. So, like, well, it's. It has its own. Yeah, I do, Scott. Its own natural, beautiful grain that it is a part of the material because you've got tiny little yeast and bacteria that are essentially fermenting and producing more of themselves that are, you know, multiplying and creating this. It's called a pelican or it's a single celled organism or organism. Matt That grows on top of the solution that I grow it in. And this, um, I'm holding currently a single celled organism that has multiplied billions of times. Yes, essentially. Oh, my God. Do you guys have no idea how insane this as it looks like real leather there will be. Obviously you can find that I'll have pictures in the Instagram, but it's like a thinner sample. This is real leather. She's showing me a thinner sample. Oh, this is interesting. Yeah. So this material and then, like, so you can see what I'm saying about I am a purist in terms of like if we can research and figure out the. Ways to keep this material as close to its original state as possible to protect this beautiful natural grain that it has. I think that is a huge argument for appealing to people who like the grain in the texture of leather. Because I've talked to designers and I've talked to furniture makers who are you know, I asked them, what do you think about these leather alternatives? And everyone is really receptive and definitely acknowledges that this is a direction that we should really move in. But everyone's also a lot of and I everyone a lot of people really get caught up with the details of leather, though, like what makes it so beautiful and how does it age really well over time. So I think if we can, you know, I really believe and show the people what they want, you know, like and the like it. Yeah. So if I can show you a material that you think is leather and is a thousand times better for the environment, what would be, you know, the real logic to not move towards incorporating something that, you know, aligns more with equality and wow, you know, well, this feels like leather. There is no difference in my opinion. I would say maybe this one has a little bit more of a stick to it, but that's also because it's got some tackiness. But how do you. And so, again, like I highly encourage everyone to check out the Instagram or check out the and her Instagram to look at these products these samples. But there's a natural grain to this, right? Mm hmm. And so does the single celled organism in this poly Kule or helical fold up. Helical, helical. Mm hmm. How does it come to this grain? Is it its own thing? Do you manipulate it into a grain? How does that work? Yes. So it's just naturally occurring. So grain. Yeah, this grain, it's all natural. So essentially when this when this material is in into raw state, it is much thicker because it absorbs and it retains a lot of water. And so when you first harvest the material, the grain is present, but it's not super prominent. And through drying the material, essentially collapsing all of these layers by removing the water, you're drying it out. The grain becomes a lot more prevalent. And also, I will say so the longer that the material is grown, the thicker it is, and the more prominent the grain, like the texture of the material is versus like. So these shoes, for example, this leather took about two months to grow interesting. And you can see that there's a grain, but it's not as dominant as this material, which took four months to grow. Mm hmm. So, yeah, definitely. You know, the texture is unbelievable. Yeah, this is unbelievable. And the. The black is natural, so. Yeah. So through the through while for the black. No, right. Yeah. I've got. I can show you this. This is what I was saying. Could be there a nice summer. Oh, my God, this is amazing. So I'll show you these samples. And I like to I really like to show anyone who I'm talking to you about, this material, all these different samples that I've discovered and sort of manipulated and grown because it shows you truly how much potential there is for. You know, creating new, you know, new new variations of the material as well. This is also like, what is that paper? The color paper? Oh, like gels. No. Do you remember back in like kindergarten or whatever when we were like kids, we used to have that colored paper is like kind of like like construction. Construction for everybody. Yeah. Oh, it was like, kind of. Kind of what? This reminds me. Yeah. A little firmer. Yeah. So has like, you could tell it's not paper and you could tell there's, like, some other quality to it, but it's like an interesting in-between. Yeah, this is another one. This is. And all the same, this is the same. The same plant. Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm working with bacteria and yeast. I'm experimenting with different strains of bacteria and used to see what different combinations, what the outcome are. So. And also, like you, you can see that this this material. So these samples for everyone listening, these samples are super, super thin. Like in terms of thickness, I'd say they're about equivalent to like a sheet of paper where the leather that we're looking at, the leather alternative is much thicker, like probably an eighth inch, 16 inch thick. And all of that is dependent on how long you're growing it for. So these samples a year ago, I worked with a nonprofit called Plant Chicago. Plant Chicago. Yeah. So here in Chicago, on the south side, there is Plant. Chicago and the plant. So a little confusing. They used to be a part of the same sort of organization, but kind of branched off. So I worked with Plant in Chicago, which is they're kind of a business resource group for sustainability in Chicago. And they had what's called their Circular Economy Leaders Network that I was very fortunate to be a part of last year. So one of the things that I was sort of pursuing with that program was working with small businesses to think about how we can replace or how we could use this material to replace packaging like tissue papers. Different kinds of packaging. That's use single waste plastics. Well, this is very plasticky feeling. Yeah. So it's a very plasticky feeling, but it's, it's also very thin. Oh, those in it. It's okay if I crunch it. Yeah, it's okay if you crunch it. It's pretty. It's flexible, but it will rip just because it's pretty dry. This is unbelievable. But, you know, we were just we were thinking about because as I was researching, you know, the thicker material, growing thicker pieces with the goal of trying to create material like leather, I realized that even growing really thin samples and drying them out produces a completely different range of materials and material possibilities. So yeah, so that was a really fun program. Got to work with a lot of small businesses to just think about, you know, what goes into what you're making, what you're packaging it with, how you're sending it out and give you any good ideas on like potential like alternatives you can make. Yeah. So yeah, we were thinking about just different processes, like different techniques for creating, you know, what are like. So we kind of thought about what are all the materials that are used in packaging. So you've got bubble wrap, you've got tissue paper, lots of paper products, lots of plastic like plastic bags, little containers to hold things. So I would say tissue paper is where we started to think about how can we grow our own tissue paper and tissue paper, or are we talking like to replace like plastic then like tissue papers that are used sometimes like gift box tissues, gift wrap Amazon stuff. Yeah. So things like like Kleenex. No, not. No, yeah. No, no, not, not that. Could that happen in the future, do you think? Um, yeah, probably. Oh, okay. Oh, sorry. This is tangential now, but, you know, how does this can this this alternate? Because I'm seeing it. It's very it's leathery, right? But here I have a classic example. And then here is, like, kind of construction paper. Mm hmm. A little more sturdier. What is the application to, like, paper and cardboard and stuff like that? Mm hmm. Tissues. Toilet paper. Yeah. So I think in terms of, you know, like toilet paper or tissue paper, I really don't know. I haven't really thought about it in that context. Could be like another variant one day or something. Yeah, potentially. I mean, it's interesting to see companies that are making tissue paper and paper towel and toilet paper from bamboo, for example, because bamboo is actually you know, it's a pretty invasive invasive in terms of the way that it grows in environments. So it grows really quickly and the roots are really strong and grow deep really fast. So bamboo can grow really, really fast and is also very strong. So it is interesting to see ways that, you know, we're starting to look at what are, you know, other kinds of plants or other kinds of trees that are better to use instead of, you know, chopping down half the rainforest to right. To plant palm trees. But so much palm oil out of palm oil. Fun fact. Bamboo is a grass they're using. Yeah, I know. I was like, right. And so it's all I know. And so tall, so not grass like, but does grow like grass. It is really hard and bamboo is really hard. If you've got any really nice cutting notes, don't cut them on a bamboo board. Uh, or it'll dull the blades. So I just watched a video about interesting about different knives, but yeah, I mean, I think, you know, so my, my focus is thinking about this material coming into the fashion industry. That's definitely my market that I'm interested in. But I think, as you know, everyone collectively starts to work towards biomaterials and think about what are these next generation materials and processes and systems that we can put in place to create new materials that are better for the environment? I think all fields will start to make that shift towards, you know, I think like the leather industry in terms of its relationship with the automobile industry as a whole market as well. Huge market in terms of you know, I think I think BMW collaborated with Michael Works I could be wrong but I know they created like the first prototype car using like mycelium leather. So like mushroom leather in the whole interior. And it's like, it's it's cool to see these companies start to think about, you know, how do their purchasing. Habits affect, you know, people all around the world. Mm hmm. Yeah. In terms of whether tanning. So that's going to be interesting because you're going to you know, I don't I'm looking at the products you're showing me now. And you've been doing this for only about a few years now. Yeah, it's been like, oh, like two and a half years. And I imagine there are a bunch of brilliant minds like yourself who are also doing similar work totally in the alternative fabrics and materials industry, right in that space. So there is definitely going to be a disruption in the tanning industry. Yeah. And so fun fact tanning doesn't just happen in the developing world. The United States has tanneries, Tanner leather tanneries, a huge business and it supports actually your meat prices. 26% of slaughterhouse revenue comes from selling the skins. And so that actually helps subsidize the steak or the chicken that you buy. It's fucking crazy. Yeah. And so some might argue, because I was I was doing my research for this interview that tannery. Right. Is actually a sustainable upcycling business because they're using the skins that otherwise get completely yanked. But it's also highly intensive, highly disruptive and bad for the environment. Mm hmm. So how do you see that playing out this shipyard from? Because I imagine there's going to eventually be a shift where we're going to be like, well, we just don't need hides to make leather. Yeah. So I've thought about that a lot because so my senior year for my thesis, I wrote and this was also kind of a product of the customized miner where I was focusing specifically on, you know, new materials, better, better materials. I wrote a paper that was essentially a survey of the leather tanning industry and the whole process start to finish of how leather is, you know, made from the lifespan of the cow, you know, the cow its whole lifespan. Pretty much looking at start to finish and how well, you know, society making these shifts affects people who are you know, their livelihood depends on tanning and being, you know, being a part of these systems that already exist. And so I think there's a lot there's like there's so many layers to this. I do think weather is a really beautiful and amazing material. But I think there's such a disconnect between the way that, you know, like traditionally leather has been tanned and is supposed to be tanned. That has just been completely automated by using chemicals. So, for example, you know, there's Italian leather, which, you know, a lot of times what gets lost is there's so in the U.S., it's completely banned in terms of using the chemicals you mentioned. So chromium, formaldehyde and arsenic, which all of these materials essentially help break down the natural state of the hide once it's removed from the animal. Mm hmm. So what? You know, like, looking back at, like, traditional practices, like, really historical ways of tanning leather, they don't involve these chemicals at all. But the reason that we've sort of resulted to using these chemicals is to automate the process and make, you know, make this tanning process go a lot quicker. So I think there's a lot of shifts that I think will be sort of happening, you know, in terms of water. Like water is such a finite resource right now, especially in, you know, other parts of the world, like outside of the U.S., like in the U.S. as well, but in certain areas. But, you know, I think that is one of the arguing points for why, you know, we should still we could still keep these sort of tanneries in place, but just change the way that the leather is actually being tanned so that we're not using these chemicals. Because in you know, in the research that I was doing for that paper, I was looking at, you know, where does the majority of leather come from and where is all of this heavy chemical, intense tanning actually taking place? And it's mainly in India and China. So what's happening is they're these countries are doing the bulk of all of the dirty work. All of the work that is is still allowed is still, you know, a part of their economy in terms of like what what is, you know, environmentally allowed and what's not. Mm hmm. So I think that's, you know, that's a shift that will, you know, kind of be disrupted as well. But I think, you know, as we start to learn more about how to make these materials, I think it'll be interesting to see how these kinds of processes can be adapted to, you know, all the tanneries and all of the systems that already exist and not potentially take jobs away, but keep jobs, but replace the environmental impact that they have, you know, like just the the constant like. The constant use of these these chemicals is really horrible for the people using them. You know, all of the water being contaminated and that sort of like off shore pollution that's happening. So I think, yeah, the goal is definitely not to replace leather as a whole, but to be more conscious about what are the processes that are existing to create this material and how can we improve them for, you know, like the the livelihood of the people who are actually making it? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, as alternative leather becomes more prominent and. Right, it arguably in some areas will probably be cheaper, you know? Mm hmm. If if this type of leather becomes, you know, very affordable to make at scale, then maybe, like, you know, the less like the more common stuff leather on would be using this and then your high end Gucci bag or whatever you'd be using Italian leather or Indian leather that's without the chemicals because now they're able to upcharge it be like this is real other traditional animal stuff. Yeah. So on the topic of animals, right, this is very again, a leather is an animal product. At the end of the day, humans have had it for thousands of years. And Madison has pointed out that only recently with modern tanning practices have we introduced the use of chemicals to speed up the process to degrade the skin. My question is right. This is made from completely plant material, right? Yeah. Single organism. Single celled organism is the raw material is grown, right? Mm hmm. And what is it exactly? Is it a plant or is it. Yeah. So it's it's considered like a bacteria. So, like, it's still I'm still a little unclear as to what exactly the classification should be, just in terms of it being both bacteria and yeast. Mm hmm. But it is not a fungus. I can say that. A fungus is not a fungus. In terms of like, you know, well, that's the whole animal kingdom of its own. But yeah. So it would be I would. Yeah, so it would be in cellulose. It would be in the plant family. That's so interesting. Yeah. So, like, wood has cellulose. It's has like a Yeah. Big smell. Yes. So the sweet smell is from. So the essentially sugar is what is the food source for the yeast and bacteria is it smells like delicious. Yeah. So it's so that, you know, that's something that is interesting, too, because it's, you know, like that. That's something I've questioned as well. Like, do we want to remove the smell? Like, is the smell a part of it? Do we want to bring in a different smell? This is a one wonder. Okay, I'm going to describe the smell to the people. It's like you got that leather, musty smell, right? Like a real leather that you smell, but. It's sweeter. And it reminds me of those like it's like a fruit. Like the fruit jelly that they make into strips. Oh, like fruit leather? Yeah, like fruit. Yeah. It's got that smell as well to it. Yeah, it's definitely sweet. You're probably also smelling some of the the, like, oils and, like, the varnishes that I put on here. Okay. That are all like natural oils, different kinds of combinations. Yeah. It's definitely got a sweet smell, though. That's a good place. Yeah. So that smell is a product of the sugar and the fermentation process that's. That's existing. Okay. And so I want to, like, pick your brain a little bit on this, because right now. Right. This is cellulose. It is completely plant material. It is a single celled organism, but using bacteria and yeast to grow it. Mm hmm. And it creates and mimics the feel of real skin. You know, that's why there is lab grown meat, right? Yeah. So everything you show me, everything you're doing, right? I'm like, this is crazy because it mimics it so much, but it isn't any animal product. Yeah. No animals were harmed in the making of this material. What do you think about, like, people being like, well, why don't we just grow a skin in a lab? But that would remove the tanning process, would it? Because you would still have to make the skin and then tan the skin. Yeah. I mean, so a couple of things to that. So a big part of these heavy chemicals is to help break down and soften the top layer of the leather. So you've got chemicals used to remove the the hair. So. Right. You so they come in and they've still got all the hair on them. Also, my mom, she she used to work in supply chain management for leather company. So she has had her fair share of trips to leather tanneries in China and parts of Asia. So she's given me a lot of really graphic descriptions of what these environments are like. Wow. So, yeah, so, you know, you've got the hair that is a part of the you know, when you have the cow, that's what's removed So it is I do think about that. It is interesting to think about, you know, these companies that are creating lab grown meat, they could branch out to creating like a lab grown skin. In terms of the tanning that would exist. I mean, I don't I'm not sure. I mean, I think if there's no hair to exist in the first place, it does remove a lot of the need for the the harsh chemicals to break that down and also just soften. Like, I think looking at the future of using something like CRISPR would be very interesting in terms of. It'd be interesting to change something in the genetics to make it have more of that water retention in that form. But viability. Yeah. Phobic ness. Yeah. Yeah. Hydrophobic banking. That's the fucking word. Hydrophobic is the goal. Yeah. I mean, that that's an area that I'm really starting to like tap into and research more. I think I read a book called The Codebreaker by James Patterson. It's a James Patterson. Yeah. I think about oh my gosh, I'm blanking on her name right now. I forgot about em. We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, but the codebreaker. And it's about Jennifer Doudna. There we go. Jennifer, it's about the team of scientists. Jennifer Doudna was the lead scientist who won the Nobel Prize for discovering CRISPR, which CRISPR is essentially a gene editing software that helps look at genes that. Are either undesirable or I'm thinking like, well, we're about to get into a whole ethical building right now. Okay. Like, for example, like scoliosis, like that would be a debilitating sort of genetic disorder. So that is something, you know, they're looking at how can we start to create regulations to use software like CRISPR to help, you know, enable people before. Before they're born. Yeah, my faith. There's a lot of ethics behind that, though. There's a lot that's not in place in terms of any legislation. So yeah, a knowing society, we won't put the guardrails on before we see the genie as but so this is a single celled organism and so it creates a little bit less debate in terms of, you know, it's not it's not a human, it's not an animal. It's something that is still a little bit more controllable. It's it's crazy. And, you know, this is like CRISPR home kits now or some shit like that. Yeah, I've I've seen that. I was thinking like it was like, that's cool, you know? Yeah, there is a show on Netflix. Have you seen it? The future of um, yeah, I've seen a couple episodes. I saw the fashion special action one. Yeah. The did you see the one where they like genetically edited plants. No. So it's like the concept is like instead of street lights, why don't we have a plant that's genetically edited, like bioluminescence? Oh, that's incredible, actually. Or, like, this was really cool. A tree that when it's not raining, it's leaves are down. And then when it's raining, it's the leaves are up. So, like, the whole city, like, gets like a canopy. Oh, that's so interesting. And we're really not that far away, if you think about it. Like with CRISPR and gene editing, like a lot has happened like in China, there was a guy that cloned a baby. Yeah, that's that was in the book. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's no joke. And the ethical got like this is no longer about love. This is Chan Central talking about the future and stuff. But you know, the ethics are crazy, right? It's like it's like you can find out, hey, your son, your future child in your room right now has like a 30% chance of developing bipolar disorder or ALS or autism or something. Right. And and then do you have the resources to fix that baby? Mm hmm. I think a lot of people would probably fix that baby. Yeah. Like, in terms of. Like. Yeah. Like what? Yeah. But then it's interesting, though, because it also comes down to accessibility as well. And that's a huge part of the debate. And that's also something that I think a lot in terms of why it's so important to scale these materials is because, you know, you see a lot of these biomaterial companies that are starting to get to a point where they're going to bring their material to market. But until we can actually scale it, it won't be affordable enough for, you know, your everyday consumer to have it be a part of their life. So it's like that's also in terms of CRISPR, in terms of these technologies, you know, having this real like redirection of funds to help, you know, aid the scaling so that it is accessible. Yeah. And that's always a lot of work to do. Equity involved. This is Stephen Hawking before he passed away, wrote a book or like his things on where he puts predictions of the world. Right. Oh, and one of his big predictions was CRISPR. And gene editing will allow a certain level of wealthy people to edit themselves genetically distinct from the rest of us. Yeah. Creating a new group of subhumans. Yeah. Designer babies. That's fucking crazy. Yeah, it's that. That is what has been really interesting with thinking about, like, the debates around using this kind of technology. Like how should we allow a society as a whole to use it? Because, you know, there's, you know, the debate of like, we shouldn't use it for esthetic purposes for, you know, your, you know, your child to be taller and had two eyes and, you know, be, you know, at a some sort of like advantage over someone else. But like what? How can we use it for real problems, like, you know, genetic disorders? Um. Yeah. Yeah, well, we'll see. You know, only time will tell with that one. But on the topic of equity and accessibility. Mm hmm. Madison is clearly a busy person, as you know. She is an art consultant by day, a researcher in alternative leathers by night and sometime during day and night and whatever is in between. And she is also on the board of a very exciting group. Let me just read my very tiny show notes. She works with Shy Town Bio and is a board member. And essentially, I won't do it justice. I'm just going to quickly, briefly summarize it. It is a giving people and creators and former researchers, lab space and lab time to continue to pursue their interest. So like other people who are interested in alternative leather or people that are interested in, you know, alternative whatever, alternative lacrosse, mental, environmental, you know, different needs. Yeah. And so why don't you tell us about Showtime bio a little bit? Yeah. So Zeitoun Bio is a nonprofit. It's a biology nonprofit that I learned about maybe like two years ago. Definitely after moving back to Chicago and just wanting to get more involved with, you know, anyone researching biology and synthetic biology in the city. So and I had wanted to try to find this kind of place because there's a great space in New York, in Brooklyn called Gen Space, which is a huge biology nonprofit and sort of educational facility. So, yeah, so I found Zeitoun bio. Andy Scarpelli is the president and he is also a professor at the School of the Art Institute, teaches a lot of amazing classes around, you know, biodesign art and science and, you know, synthetic biology, just thinking about how can, you know, people in our sort of related fields think about incorporating science and technology into their practice. So yeah, so Zeitoun bio I joined like about a month ago was an official board member just to really be more involved and be a part of this organization that I think is going to do amazing things for the city of Chicago. And so, yeah, so we right now, the tentative plan is to open a physical lab space in hopefully spring. Fingers crossed of 2024. And yeah, the purpose of Showtime bio is to create a biology nonprofit sort of biology lab space with the sort of sole purpose of making science accessible. Mm hmm. So there's, you know, a lot of maker spaces throughout the city. But Showtime Bio will essentially be a collaborative, like, open community biology lab that it'll be like membership based. But they're as a resource to allow people who maybe were, you know, in some sort of research field associated to a lab, maybe through a program or through a university that, you know, still need a space to pursue their research. So, yeah, so I'm super excited. I really want to help shape town bio in terms of thinking about programing and having more workshops. The space that that we're setting up in has a really awesome storefront sort of facility in Rogers Park. You said, Yeah, so Rogers Park, yeah. So yeah. So yeah. Be on the lookout site town bio opening 2024 and yeah, it'll be a great, great space. Lots of fun things will happen in terms of workshops and you know, allowing people to have a facility to pursue, you know, environmental research, anything that they might have started. But I wanted to pick up pick back up on. You guys are on the way. So from your like just from a third person perspective, what you're doing right in your artistic slash fashion slash science merger, it gives me gigantic, like steampunk. I think it's called like solar punk. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Like the future. What does the future of fashion look like? We're going to be growing our own materials, maybe in our own homes. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. How big is this community of people, like minded people like yourself, working on alternatives with this, like art, art and science combination? Yeah. I mean, I think the community is super large, like in terms of, you know, artists and designers and makers starting to be. More interested in material alternatives in terms of companies that are actively researching material alternatives and trying to fundraise, you know, raise capital, bring these materials to market. It's still very much a small community. It's it's a really emerging field, for sure, in terms of biomaterials, specifically, because there are a lot of barriers to entry in terms of receiving proper funding, as well as the actual like synthetic biology and science that still has to, you know, be developed or be researched. But, you know, I think, like I said, it's kind of about redirecting these sort of resources. As, you know, society as a whole starts to realize that, you know, we kind of at least with the fashion industry, our modes of production and our systems in place are just, you know, they thrive in a capitalist society, but they're not sustainable at all. Yeah. And we don't you know, we don't have the luxury of time to try to wait to fix these problems. But yeah, the that's that was encouraging to for you to read the vegan leather market projected to be 99 billion. Yeah. But in the next five years. Yeah I mean it's definitely is showing because it shows that you know, people are interested, they want to see these materials become available and just see this sort of shift. I think, you know, we're as we're as we're trying to save the the world, the planet. I think, you know, we're going to also be a part of this really interesting history in art, in design and just the world in general. And to see, you know, what kinds of things we create. Yeah. And, you know, you talk about Save the Planet. And again, this is a huge focus on climate change and consumerism and capitalism, obviously, because you work in fashion. Mm hmm. Very consumption, consumer driven market, totally leather, very polluting industry. My question is, what was my question? I mean, you lost track. Wait a minute. Oh, we were talking about steampunk and we were talking about steampunk and the future. And I was going to say something, and now I have blanked. Title, Veal leather. Oh, my God. It's about the market. $90 billion in the next five years. I know. Exactly. Okay. Thank you for reminding me. So with that being said, right, there are solutions to a lot of these problems. And there are a lot of people willing to try being in leather and do all these things. But we do have to address the elephant in the room. Right. And that is consumerism. You work in a very consumer driven market. Totally. One thing is in today. Something is in tomorrow. It's brand new. Brand new leather. How do we also win your opinion? Where do you see that? Shifting the perspective, the consumerist mindset? How do you see that shifting in the future? Yeah, so I think there's definitely a lot of layers here. I think in terms of fashion, something that's really tricky is, you know, we've we've created this misconception in a way that clothes should be really cheap, really easy to buy, commonly available disposable. And I think there's a couple shifts in terms of our relationship with what we wear. You know, I think moving more towards buying for the sake of longevity versus for the sake of trends and then, you know, getting rid of lots of clothes every single year Right. I think that's a shift. That is a really sort of challenging one for a lot of people to approach, especially, you know, a lot of people not, you know, familiar with what their clothes are made out of, don't understand what goes into making garments. I think, you know. In terms of consuming. It's it's really tricky, at least for, you know, like a country like the United States, like to thrive in a capitalist society because, you know, that's that's what, like so much value is put into in in this sort of world. But yeah, I think in terms of consuming, at least from like a clothing standpoint, understanding that there's you could get more wears more use out of just spending a little bit more to buy clothes that aren't going to be for the sake of throwing them out in a few years. So just being more mindful of like where, where your clothes go when you're done with them. I think also, you know, there's so many clothes that already exist. So, you know, upcycling is a huge thing that's happening, you know, being more mindful about, you know, maybe not discarding clothes that you don't wear anymore and just thinking about other ways to like use them or re gift them or maybe mend them like fix them. Right. But yeah, I mean, just consumerism in general, I think, I think we need to all practice a little bit more detachment and not put so much value as well into, you know, what we wear. And well, actually, I take that back. I'm definitely biased. Your fashion is. No. Yeah, I like I like what I wear. But I also like to I like to to know, you know, like these jeans are not, like, brand new, like big supporter of buy secondhand, like buy vintage, like, buy, buy things that you know you're going to wear. And, you know, you don't, you know, like you. I, I think my biggest rule of thumb with shopping, at least, is only buy something that you like absolutely love and you would regret not having because it will really help narrow down, you know, what do you buy? What do you what do you spend your money on? Like what? You know, what are you getting rid of, like five years from now? Because I think, you know, there's there's been such a disconnect of. You go to the store, you go to Target, and you can buy a five pack of T-shirts for like 20 bucks. And you know that every time clothes are that cheap and not accessible. There's also, you know, a lot of people who are being exploited in the process of that price being affordable. So, yeah, I mean, like one of my great fashion professors, you know, she really created this like strong perspective of, you know, every all clothes should cost a good amount. Right. Like for because, you know, someone is involved in the making of the material, the construction start to finish. So I think labor rights is a huge part of the puzzle as well. Yeah, I think so too. And it's like, what is that? Plausible deniability? Yeah. Everybody contracts somebody else to contract somebody else so that you can always deny that. You had any idea that a child. Soldier Yeah. Jeans or whatever the hell my daughter case. Yeah. I mean, you see that a lot in Southeast Asia. You see that issue in Bangladesh. See you India a lot. Bangladesh, especially. Bangladesh is a huge textile hub and they have horrible, horrible worker rights. Like every year you hear news about like a a garment factory catching on fire and people dying. Yeah, I mean, Rana Plaza, the collapse of that. Also, Bangladesh is one of the most climate change susceptible nations on earth, like it's actually below sea level, has been on a flood plain in its whole existence. And, you know, we're still feeling the beast and we're outsourcing into a country that does not have the means to deal with that. So it's something that we should in the future address. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like like I said, as systems start to change and more sustainable, you know, routes for creating materials start to pop up, I think there's a lot of ways to be like, how can we implement these better technologies in, you know, countries that also need it the most? Because there's still so, you know, India is so still dependent on, you know, western consuming of leather. So how can we make sure that these people are not put out of jobs but are given, you know, a better sort of outcome for what they're going to be working on? Yeah, there is. And this is about chocolate, but there's a guy that does like sustainable chocolate. Oh, cool. And he talks about how like, it's he even in his disclaimer, he's like, I cannot guarantee that, like, it are completely like legal labor rights because it's like so many people. Yeah. And he's like, we did the best. And they factor the ethical costs into the price of the chocolate so that the people are paid properly. Mm hmm. But still, you know, it's a very, very wide, wide web of people working in tandem. So it's hard to know just how safe and ethical your stuff is. So be mindful as much as you can. Yeah, that's hard to trace a lot of it. So, yeah. Well, to end on a positive note, what do you see in five? What are you looking forward to with your current pursuit of alternative leathers five years down the road? With your current passion and pursuit, what do you see happening? What are you excited for? Yeah. So the goal is definitely to just continue research, continue prototyping. I'm super excited for the lab to be up and running because that will be really great to just be back in an environment with other, you know, other like minded people who are also interested in moving this sort of development further. But I mean, the goal is definitely to get a material that is to the to the same material tests as leather, or at least close to it, to be able to, you know, move into this next stage of scaling the sort of production. So, yeah, kind of finding the special, special recipe and I guess you could say and then yeah, getting that to a point to be able to scale it. And then yeah, I mean the goal is to have a material that I could have available to, you know, anyone who's a maker, anyone making shoes, making clothes, making furniture just have, yeah, have a material available for people who want something different and something that's better for, you know, the long term impacts on the environment. That's exciting stuff. That's biodegradable, a super exciting stuff. Yeah. Well, you know, I support you fully. I think it's I was very excited to have you on the podcast. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here. Yeah. When I started this, you were one of the first people I thought of as, like, vegan leather. Like, this is sick. We have to have her on the pod. We have to let people know about it. This is exciting. And so, you know, like, just. Keep doing what you're doing. It takes a lot of courage to pursue something like this because you don't know what's going to happen, right? Yeah. But you're focused on the journey and whatever outcome happens happens. And I think it's very beautiful and an admirable thing what you're doing. Thank you. Keep on keep on trucking, but keep doing it. Yeah, the the grain the natural grain is definitely a big motivator. Yeah, I feel like the first. Yeah. Growing the first material, first piece, seeing what's possible definitely keeps me moving forward. Aside from all the hurdles. Yeah, it's just the little victories. Yeah, little, little victories. But yeah. Before we wrap up the show, this is your time. Everyone has a blast, like four or 5 minutes or however long they want to talk. Just say whatever they want. So anything you want to let the listeners know? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, in terms of how how everyone can be involved in thinking, you know, maybe a little bit more sustainably around fashion and around clothing and what you wear. I would say some just really fun. Like rules of thumb are, you know, shop secondhand if you can. Mm hmm. There's still, you know, a lot of really amazing pieces of clothing, especially ones that have never been worn, that are out there ready for a home. Mm hmm. You know, look, in two different ways of mending. If you've got, you know, your favorite sweater that's got a huge hole in it, you can still save that. It's not ready for the landfill. It's it's it just needs a little love and just, you know, you know, I think if everyone is able to just be a little bit more mindful around what are my clothes made out of? Are they worth the price that is being charged or should I, you know, maybe move more towards, you know, like what you're wearing, for example, you've got a nice pair denim. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you're asking me good time. Yeah. So, like, just thinking about, you know, not having fashion be so disposable, but having it be, you know, a part of your, your everyday sort of identity. So because I think the more we're able to, you know, attach to the clothes that we wear, the, you know the shoes that make us feel good, the more we'll take care and, you know, taking care of them, having them last a long time and not thinking of these things is so disposable. Yeah. So I think that's, that's where we could leave off with. Yeah. So shop like be a little more mindful around look we have a list what we're wearing shop secondhand, learn different ways of mending your clothes. They might not be ready for the landfill and be mindful of your clothes and their value. Yeah. Yeah. Think these. And who's making them and who's making them? Yeah. Try, try your best and try to avoid chain and see. Oh, gosh. Yeah. All, all of that was not great. Yeah. If you're going to buy it by second hand. Well, Madison, thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you. You were what an amazing sensation. Likewise. I'm excited for the the future of our steampunk adventure. Our steampunk adventure. Anyone interested in material alternatives or has a similar artistic scientific mind? There will be show notes in the description. Show town biology in the description, if you're interested in connecting. I'm happy to answer any questions or. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And with that we hope you guys have a great rest of your day or evening or night and we'll catch you on the next one. So piece by. Okay. Nice. Oh.